Latest / Adam's Favorite Podcasts / New Media Show (Audio) - Creators Get SBA Classification. Now What? | Avi Gandhi, Creators Guild #693 (Audio)

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New Media Show (Audio) - Creators Get SBA Classification. Now What? | Avi Gandhi, Creators Guild #693 (Audio) · Adam's Favorite Podcasts

• 0:00
  - Welcome to the New Media Show, and this
• 0:02
  - is episode six ninety three. And
• 0:05
  - I've got a terrific show for you tonight.
• 0:08
  - On October fifteenth of this year,
• 0:11
  - the US Small Business Administration
• 0:14
  - issued a guidance clarifying how
• 0:17
  - qualifying
• 0:17
  - creator led businesses
• 0:19
  - fit into
• 0:20
  - a small business classification
• 0:23
  - that is part of the SBA since content
• 0:25
  - creators really didn't have a classification
• 0:28
  - inside of the small business administration. So this
• 0:31
  - is a significant
• 0:32
  - change,
• 0:33
  - and it may bring a lot of opportunities.
• 0:35
  - And, really, the the the... This is about
• 0:37
  - treating creators
• 0:39
  - as real businesses.
• 0:41
  - But
• 0:41
  - what actually changes is the bigger question that
• 0:44
  - that we're going to talk about, and what
• 0:46
  - opportunities does this unlock?
• 0:48
  - And will this recognition
• 0:50
  - lead to real access to capital credibility and
• 0:53
  - a more sustainable creator business?
• 0:56
  - Or is it just only a first step
• 0:58
  - on that process?
• 0:59
  - And I've got a terrific guest with me,
• 1:02
  - Avi Gandhi, who's the chair of the government
• 1:05
  - advocacy
• 1:07
  - group
• 1:07
  - for creators
• 1:09
  - at the Creators Guild for America, and he
• 1:12
  - joins me on the show tonight and... To
• 1:14
  - explain this SBA announcement.
• 1:16
  - So let's get into the show.
• 1:19
  - Welcome to the new media show with human
• 1:21
  - host and podcast hall of famer, Rob Green.
• 1:38
  - Well, Ondi,
• 1:40
  - welcome to the to the new media show.
• 1:42
  - It's great to have you here and with
• 1:45
  - with me, Avi, and and it's
• 1:47
  - really an honor to to really have this
• 1:49
  - topic on on the show.
• 1:51
  - And you've worked across
• 1:53
  - creator
• 1:54
  - representation, production platforms, partnerships,
• 1:57
  - really including the, you know, a lot of
• 2:00
  - agency talent
• 2:01
  - representation
• 2:03
  - in
• 2:03
  - places like, Patreon.
• 2:06
  - And, really, I think you're sitting in a
• 2:08
  - really great place to be an advocate for
• 2:10
  - creators
• 2:11
  - at the federal level and at the at
• 2:13
  - at the government. So like I say, well,
• 2:16
  - welcome to the show. It's great to have
• 2:17
  - you with me. Yeah, Rob. Thanks for having
• 2:19
  - me. I didn't realize you were in the
• 2:20
  - podcast hall of fame. That's pretty cool. Yeah.
• 2:22
  - I've been I've been in the podcast space
• 2:24
  - for over ten years now. I I helped
• 2:26
  - stand up the podcast business at WME along
• 2:28
  - with a number of colleagues there and produced
• 2:30
  - podcasts at Wheelhouse, won won a Streamy Award
• 2:33
  - for one of them,
• 2:34
  - helped move podcasts into video, and and then,
• 2:37
  - of course, Patreon podcast, one of our biggest
• 2:39
  - categories. So love what you're doing and appreciate
• 2:41
  - having me. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate
• 2:43
  - that. And it's, yeah, it's been a long,
• 2:45
  - long journey in this podcasting space. It started
• 2:47
  - from really virtually nothing. I started on the
• 2:50
  - radio. So so... And then the podcasting really
• 2:53
  - wasn't much of anything when I started in
• 2:54
  - 2004.
• 2:56
  - It didn't have much of my audience at
• 2:57
  - the time, but it it grew into be
• 2:59
  - a significant thing, and I built a whole
• 3:01
  - career around it for the last twenty plus
• 3:03
  - years.
• 3:04
  - So I've worked with for, you know, I
• 3:05
  - used to work for Microsoft. I used to
• 3:07
  - work for a lot of these, you know,
• 3:08
  - a lot of the big companies as well
• 3:10
  - as the smaller companies in the space. And
• 3:12
  - and so, you know, there's been a, you
• 3:14
  - know, a long journey here for creators
• 3:17
  - to find some legitimacy
• 3:19
  - of sorts
• 3:20
  - at the, you know, at the government level.
• 3:22
  - I I would imagine there's
• 3:24
  - aspects of
• 3:26
  - the creator economy that are are just not
• 3:28
  - part
• 3:29
  - of the government infrastructure.
• 3:31
  - So
• 3:32
  - this is kind of kind of a new
• 3:34
  - breakthrough of sorts. Isn't it? So so how
• 3:36
  - do you think about this
• 3:38
  - choice that the
• 3:40
  - the SBA made to create a classification?
• 3:44
  - And why do you think now? And
• 3:46
  - what do you think the ramifications
• 3:48
  - of that choice was?
• 3:50
  - Great questions.
• 3:51
  - So, I mean, I think, you know, one
• 3:53
  - word I would use to describe it is
• 3:54
  - historic. Until
• 3:56
  - this,
• 3:57
  - recognition,
• 3:58
  - the only time creators have ever been mentioned
• 4:00
  - by the US government
• 4:01
  - was in the treasury department's guidance on who
• 4:05
  - qualifies for no tax on tips. Yeah. Beautiful
• 4:09
  - bill.
• 4:10
  - So that put us, you know, next to,
• 4:12
  - servers and code room attendants. And, certainly, creators
• 4:15
  - do... Many creators do take tips, and and
• 4:17
  - I agree they shouldn't pay tax on them.
• 4:19
  - But I think anyone that runs a creator
• 4:21
  - business or is a creator, they'll lose you.
• 4:24
  - No. No. I'm still here. Sorry. The, like,
• 4:26
  - screen changing. Yeah. Yeah. I did. I have
• 4:29
  - the, powers to switch. Got it. Got it.
• 4:31
  - Okay. Sorry about that. Okay. So so anyone
• 4:34
  - that runs a creator business knows that it
• 4:36
  - is a business, that, you are an entrepreneur.
• 4:39
  - If you're a creator, you're producing your content,
• 4:40
  - but also distributing it. You're also figuring out
• 4:42
  - how to monetize it. You're hiring people, firing
• 4:45
  - people, investing your own capital a lot of
• 4:47
  - the times, and trying to figure out how
• 4:49
  - to make a profit so you can pay
• 4:51
  - your bills. And so that is running a
• 4:53
  - small business, and the Small Business Administration
• 4:57
  - recognized that. And remember, the Small Business Administration
• 4:59
  - is a federal agency.
• 5:01
  - Its administrator, Kelly Loeffler, is part of the
• 5:04
  - cabinet and reports to the president of The
• 5:06
  - United States. And so this is a historic
• 5:08
  - recognition
• 5:09
  - of creators. And I think I think that
• 5:11
  - is something that this industry needs. There is
• 5:14
  - still sort of stigma against content creation. You
• 5:17
  - know, if you tell your
• 5:20
  - family or friends, that your job is podcasting,
• 5:23
  - a lot of times they ask, you know,
• 5:24
  - what what are you gonna get a real
• 5:25
  - job? And
• 5:27
  - and, you know, if... Nobody asks you that
• 5:28
  - if you tell them you own a coffee
• 5:30
  - shop or, or are, you know, a handyman,
• 5:34
  - and those are small businesses. And so is
• 5:36
  - being a content creator. So Yeah. This recognition
• 5:39
  - by the government, I think, has the potential
• 5:40
  - to really trickle down across the economy,
• 5:43
  - and across culture
• 5:44
  - to recognize
• 5:46
  - all of us. There are 27,000,000 creators in
• 5:48
  - The United States earning some sort of income.
• 5:51
  - Yeah. There's anywhere from one to 12,000,000 creators,
• 5:54
  - depending on which study you look at, who
• 5:56
  - are full time earning as content creators.
• 5:59
  - And and, you know, there's different ways to
• 6:02
  - define that. Some of those folks are, you
• 6:04
  - know, their content is their product. Some of
• 6:05
  - them are making content to promote some other
• 6:08
  - offering product, whether it's services or or physical
• 6:12
  - goods or digital products, whatever it is. But
• 6:14
  - all of them are using content to drive
• 6:16
  - their businesses.
• 6:17
  - And this is one of the fastest growing
• 6:20
  - categories, one of the fastest growing industries
• 6:22
  - in America. Pre COVID, small businesses, you know,
• 6:25
  - registered at a rate of 300 to 350,000
• 6:28
  - new businesses per month. Post COVID, that went
• 6:30
  - up to 450,000 to 500,000 new businesses per
• 6:33
  - month. What changed during COVID? Well, we all
• 6:35
  - went online. We all started to watch a
• 6:37
  - podcast. Everyone started making TikTok videos. Everyone started
• 6:40
  - writing newsletters. And and so
• 6:42
  - the big difference, and I think what is
• 6:44
  - responsible for that rise, is the rise of
• 6:47
  - content creators and the creator economy. So this
• 6:49
  - is huge, and it's historic. And it also
• 6:52
  - more practically means that creators now have access
• 6:54
  - to a tremendous number of resources
• 6:56
  - that other small businesses significant
• 6:59
  - aspect of this, right, is
• 7:02
  - you're... You know, we're we're now recognized
• 7:04
  - in a classification that could be used at
• 7:06
  - banks and,
• 7:08
  - financial institutions
• 7:09
  - that really establishes this as a credible
• 7:12
  - activity. Right? There's three... Yeah. There's three technical
• 7:16
  - benefits here, or or practical benefits that creators
• 7:19
  - get from this recognition. So first,
• 7:22
  - the SBA issued guidance both to banks and
• 7:25
  - to creators that creators should be
• 7:28
  - categorized as small businesses and eligible for SBA
• 7:32
  - loans
• 7:33
  - as long as they file under a certain
• 7:35
  - code. So you've probably seen when you file
• 7:38
  - taxes or you apply for a bank account
• 7:39
  - or even form a corporation. Yep. It asks
• 7:41
  - you for what industry you're in, and, usually,
• 7:43
  - that's correlated to a six digit number. That
• 7:45
  - is the NAICS code, North American Industrial Classification
• 7:49
  - System.
• 7:50
  - Mhmm. And
• 7:51
  - and, historically, creators have not had our own
• 7:53
  - NAICS code. We still don't have our own
• 7:55
  - NAICS code. However, the SBA has issued guidance
• 7:58
  - that creators should file
• 8:00
  - under the five one two one
• 8:03
  - NAICS code family. So that's a four digit
• 8:05
  - code. There is several six digit codes under
• 8:07
  - that family, and that is the motion picture
• 8:10
  - and video industries
• 8:12
  - family.
• 8:13
  - And so creators file under that family, and
• 8:15
  - banks are then,
• 8:17
  - have guidance to accept creator applications
• 8:21
  - for SBA loans
• 8:23
  - when filed under those... Under that code family.
• 8:26
  - Now SBA loans are
• 8:28
  - offered
• 8:29
  - by the SBA through banks. So the SBA
• 8:31
  - makes about $45,000,000,000
• 8:33
  - worth of loans every year
• 8:34
  - through American banks of all sizes. You know,
• 8:36
  - the big banks, the, you know, Bank of
• 8:38
  - America's and Wells Fargo's, as well as the
• 8:40
  - smaller regional, micro, and community banks. And,
• 8:43
  - and the way that works is the banks
• 8:46
  - would usually
• 8:47
  - look at a small business when deciding whether
• 8:49
  - to make a loan and say, well, are
• 8:50
  - they gonna be able to pay this off
• 8:52
  - easily? Is their revenue high enough? Like, what's
• 8:55
  - our risk here? And, of course, when making
• 8:57
  - loans, they've got a pretty high risk threshold.
• 8:59
  - So the SBA says to these banks, we
• 9:01
  - will backstop those loans. So if this business...
• 9:04
  - If these small businesses
• 9:05
  - cannot pay you back, we will pay the
• 9:07
  - difference.
• 9:08
  - And so that means that banks and underwriters
• 9:11
  - are less, risk averse Right. And more willing
• 9:15
  - to make loans to newer businesses, businesses who
• 9:18
  - don't have a lot of historical
• 9:21
  - revenue
• 9:22
  - and and just need, you know, 10,000 to
• 9:24
  - set up your home studio or 50,000
• 9:27
  - to launch a new product line or whatever
• 9:29
  - it is that you need the loan for.
• 9:31
  - And so these are loans that are traditionally
• 9:33
  - used by all kinds of small businesses.
• 9:35
  - You know, every,
• 9:36
  - you know, car wash or a lot of,
• 9:39
  - real estate investors, a lot of Mhmm. Yeah.
• 9:41
  - Small businesses across America Yeah. Right. Use SBA
• 9:43
  - loans. But creators have historically not been eligible...
• 9:46
  - Or rather, they've been eligible but not been
• 9:48
  - able to access them because many banks have
• 9:50
  - had trouble looking at a creator's application and
• 9:51
  - saying, oh, I understand what this is. I
• 9:54
  - know where this fits in my system.
• 9:56
  - I can approve it. And so now with
• 9:58
  - this new guidance, it'll make it a lot
• 9:59
  - easier for banks to accept creator. So that's
• 10:02
  - the first big, big win. And the other
• 10:05
  - two practical benefits are much simpler, I think.
• 10:08
  - One is, the ability to access government contracting.
• 10:11
  - So, you know, there, the US government through
• 10:13
  - the Small Business Administration has a program where
• 10:15
  - small businesses can apply for government contracts.
• 10:18
  - Now how... What government contracts creators might apply
• 10:20
  - for is a different question. I think, as
• 10:22
  - the government evolves and goes more digital, I
• 10:25
  - think we'll see more opportunities for creators to,
• 10:28
  - apply their skills to government needs. But, the
• 10:31
  - the fact that we are now eligible for
• 10:33
  - that is the first step to that system,
• 10:35
  - and those opportunities and benefits being created.
• 10:38
  - And, again, that has to, you know, those
• 10:41
  - opportunities are through the NAICS code five one
• 10:43
  - two one family, the motion picture and video
• 10:46
  - industry family.
• 10:47
  - And then finally......
• 10:48
  - Up on the screen right right now that
• 10:50
  - the Perfect. This is a direct quote out
• 10:52
  - out of the the announcement that came off
• 10:54
  - of the off the website. So, I mean,
• 10:57
  - they're showing 27,000,000
• 10:59
  - led businesses,
• 11:01
  - that this could impact. Right? Absolutely. And that
• 11:04
  - leads to a third piece, which is, mentorship.
• 11:06
  - The Small Business Administration operates
• 11:08
  - a number of small business development centers locally
• 11:11
  - in cities across America. Those centers offer,
• 11:15
  - mentorship programs, events, and and other sort of
• 11:18
  - benefits for creators who... Or for small businesses
• 11:21
  - in general who are willing to go and
• 11:23
  - apply for their programs and ask for mentorship,
• 11:25
  - etcetera. And now creators can apply for those
• 11:28
  - those programs as well. And so I think
• 11:29
  - that's gonna be, an amazing opportunity for creators
• 11:32
  - to get some business mentorship
• 11:34
  - as they look to grow their creator businesses.
• 11:36
  - Yeah. I think that's awesome. Well, why don't
• 11:38
  - you tell us a little bit about the
• 11:40
  - Creators Guild of America
• 11:42
  - organization? I had never heard of that organization.
• 11:45
  - So this is all great news that there
• 11:48
  - is
• 11:49
  - an organization like that.
• 11:51
  - Why don't you tell us a little bit
• 11:52
  - about that organization of which you're
• 11:55
  - leading?
• 11:56
  - Right? Yes. Yeah. So I'm on the leadership
• 11:58
  - team there. I'm the chair of government advocacy.
• 12:01
  - The Creators Guild was founded, I think, three
• 12:03
  - years ago. Today, we have 14,000 members and
• 12:06
  - affiliates,
• 12:07
  - so growing fairly quickly.
• 12:09
  - Anyone that's interested can go to creatorsbuildofamerica.org.
• 12:13
  - And we are a nonprofit
• 12:15
  - that supports, protects, and advocates for creators. So
• 12:19
  - Mhmm.
• 12:20
  - Advocacy
• 12:21
  - is my charge, and that is,
• 12:24
  - going to the government at the federal, state,
• 12:26
  - local level, wherever applicable,
• 12:27
  - and advocating on behalf of creators for policies,
• 12:31
  - that benefit them. This is a great example
• 12:33
  - and our first big win,
• 12:35
  - in that space.
• 12:36
  - And... But we've also have a number of
• 12:38
  - other benefits and programs as well. So for
• 12:40
  - example, we have recently launched Mosaic, which is,
• 12:43
  - you could think of it as, like, IMDB
• 12:45
  - for creators.
• 12:46
  - So, you know, you wanna list your podcast
• 12:48
  - there,
• 12:49
  - and show all of the different sponsors you've
• 12:51
  - had. Your sponsors can then come on and
• 12:54
  - verify that they have indeed sponsored you. Now
• 12:56
  - any future sponsors, you can direct them to
• 12:59
  - your CGA mosaic page, and they can see
• 13:02
  - the verified partners that you've worked with in
• 13:04
  - the past. So in this world where trust
• 13:06
  - is kind of,
• 13:08
  - going down, you know, you never know what's
• 13:10
  - real. You never know if people are telling
• 13:11
  - the truth. This is a central verified,
• 13:14
  - like, you know, two party verification
• 13:16
  - database for creators to show... Showcase their real
• 13:20
  - work,
• 13:21
  - and get more work. We have also launched,
• 13:23
  - our brand deal writer, which is a a
• 13:27
  - document that you can attach to brand deals
• 13:29
  - and sponsorships that provides some minimum number of
• 13:32
  - protections. For example, you know, the ownership of
• 13:35
  - the content for creators and minimum... Reasonable payment
• 13:38
  - timelines and those kinds of things. And we
• 13:40
  - have gotten a number of influencer marketing agencies,
• 13:43
  - brand agencies, platforms to acknowledge the writer and
• 13:47
  - accept the writer in their contract negotiations with
• 13:50
  - our members. So those are just two examples,
• 13:53
  - alongside the advocacy work,
• 13:55
  - we have been doing of how the creators
• 13:57
  - guild, you know, supports, protects, and advocates for
• 13:59
  - creators. How long has the creators guildofamerica.org
• 14:04
  - been operating or around? What's the what's the
• 14:07
  - history of it? And where has it been
• 14:09
  - focused on advocating for in the past if
• 14:13
  - it goes back a ways, or is it
• 14:14
  - new? It's only about three years old. Mhmm.
• 14:17
  - So pretty new, but, again, growing very quickly.
• 14:19
  - We've got about 14,000 members and growing fast.
• 14:22
  - Our focus to date has been on standing
• 14:25
  - up Mosaic, launching the brand deal rider. This
• 14:28
  - win with the SBA, this partnership with the
• 14:30
  - SBA represents our first foray into government advocacy.
• 14:34
  - Certainly won't be our last. And I have
• 14:36
  - to say it was a
• 14:38
  - a massive collaborative effort across a coalition of
• 14:41
  - organizations.
• 14:42
  - You know, we had the CGA
• 14:44
  - efforts, which I led. We had creators for
• 14:46
  - mental health led by Shira Lazar, who is
• 14:48
  - also on the Creators Guild's leadership. I'm sorry,
• 14:50
  - on the advisory board for the Creators Guild.
• 14:52
  - You know, a number of other colleagues from
• 14:54
  - the Creators Guild were involved,
• 14:56
  - and we even had, outside assistance from companies
• 14:59
  - like TikTok. So this is something that a
• 15:01
  - lot of people have been talking about,
• 15:04
  - efforts around getting creators recognized and getting them
• 15:06
  - in NAICS code have been ongoing for years.
• 15:09
  - I mean, you know, Matthew Patrick of Game
• 15:11
  - Theorists has been talking about it for several
• 15:13
  - years now, and Ashira was working on it
• 15:15
  - for a while, and and a number of
• 15:17
  - other... Like, YouTube has mentioned to me that
• 15:18
  - their policy team has been advocating for it.
• 15:21
  - So I think it's,
• 15:23
  - likely to be, you know, kind of a
• 15:25
  - snowball effect of this conversation happening and then,
• 15:28
  - just being in the right place at the
• 15:30
  - right time. You know, the way that it
• 15:31
  - the way that it happened is that
• 15:34
  - the office of management and budget
• 15:37
  - happened to be
• 15:38
  - looking at a new NAICS code policy. They
• 15:40
  - look at adding or removing NAICS codes every
• 15:43
  - five years.
• 15:44
  - And and so
• 15:46
  - this summer, this past summer was when they
• 15:49
  - were accepting public comment on a new set
• 15:51
  - of NAICS codes.
• 15:52
  - And I had been leading a town hall
• 15:55
  - at VidCon where I'm, on their advisory board
• 15:57
  - as well. VidCon's, like, the biggest creator convention.
• 16:00
  - And
• 16:01
  - in that town hall, we were talking about
• 16:03
  - areas where we thought the government could support
• 16:04
  - creators. And the number one thing that people
• 16:06
  - wanted
• 16:07
  - was recognition because everything else comes out of
• 16:11
  - recognition. But being recognized as real businesses,
• 16:13
  - as real contributors to the economy is kind
• 16:15
  - of the baseline.
• 16:17
  - And so, you know, Shira, who is founder
• 16:19
  - of Creators for Mental Health, was holding an
• 16:22
  - advocacy day in Washington, DC. She's been doing
• 16:24
  - advocacy work in DC for years,
• 16:26
  - and invited me. And together, we were able
• 16:29
  - to put this idea of needing to be
• 16:31
  - recognized in their own NAICS code in front
• 16:33
  - of a number of congresspeople, a number of
• 16:35
  - policy teams, and ultimately in front of the
• 16:38
  - SBA. And the SBA immediately understood what we
• 16:40
  - were trying to do,
• 16:42
  - and were extremely supportive. Excuse me. We ran
• 16:44
  - two sort of parallel campaigns on one side.
• 16:47
  - We had a public campaign where we submitted
• 16:50
  - comments to the Office of Management and Budget
• 16:52
  - for how,
• 16:53
  - we believe creators should have our own NAICS
• 16:56
  - code. We still believe that, and, a number
• 16:59
  - of people submitted comments in support. The office
• 17:01
  - of management budget is still reviewing
• 17:04
  - those comments and and, ultimately, we'll make a
• 17:06
  - decision. And our hope is that that goes
• 17:08
  - through because... And creators do deserve our own,
• 17:11
  - code category, and I can talk about why
• 17:13
  - that matters in a minute.
• 17:15
  - Right. But we also collaborate with the SBA
• 17:18
  - because, ultimately, creators are small businesses.
• 17:20
  - And and a big reason that we wanted
• 17:23
  - NAICS code in the first place was to
• 17:25
  - access the resources that the SBA offered. And
• 17:27
  - the SBA understood that that creators needed access
• 17:30
  - to those resources, and they offered alternative routes
• 17:32
  - to to getting creators access, specifically
• 17:35
  - allowing creators to file under
• 17:38
  - the five one two one code,
• 17:40
  - within the motion picture industry. And so that
• 17:43
  - was a great win. We worked with them
• 17:45
  - for several months to to find the right
• 17:47
  - way to do this because, believe it or
• 17:49
  - not, there's a lot of technicalities
• 17:51
  - in the policy around this stuff. You know,
• 17:53
  - like, NAICS codes aren't just determined by one
• 17:56
  - country. It's North American industrial classification system. So
• 17:59
  - Canada has NAICS codes. Mexico's NAICS codes. There's
• 18:01
  - some alignment across various countries. And so it's
• 18:04
  - not as simple as just calling someone up
• 18:07
  - and convincing them that they need to do
• 18:09
  - it. And so we found the right way
• 18:11
  - to get it done so that creators can
• 18:13
  - access these benefits, and the SBA has been
• 18:15
  - extremely,
• 18:16
  - supportive. And and
• 18:18
  - we're really the ones that made this happen,
• 18:20
  - so we're very grateful to them. Yeah. So
• 18:23
  - it's safe to say that government bureaucracy kinda
• 18:25
  - moves a little slowly. So
• 18:28
  - is that kind of what's going on here?
• 18:30
  - It was easier for them to include
• 18:33
  - creators
• 18:33
  - in this current existing
• 18:35
  - classification, or is this new... A new classification?
• 18:40
  - And then you're talking about maybe adding some
• 18:42
  - more specific
• 18:43
  - classifications at some point in the future. Is
• 18:46
  - that that kinda how it kinda worked out?
• 18:49
  - Yeah. That's correct. So so
• 18:51
  - they included us in existing classification in order
• 18:53
  - to get creators in the door as soon
• 18:55
  - as possible. Yeah. Exactly. It's easier to get
• 18:57
  - that done that way. Right? Yes. Okay. The
• 18:59
  - SBA's goal is to is to help,
• 19:02
  - American companies, small businesses grow. They deploy about
• 19:06
  - $45,000,000,000
• 19:07
  - worth of
• 19:08
  - capital every year through their loan programs.
• 19:11
  - And,
• 19:12
  - and so... And creators represent a huge opportunity
• 19:15
  - for them to deploy even more capital and
• 19:17
  - help even more American small businesses succeed.
• 19:20
  - So they understood what we're going for. They
• 19:21
  - were... We were very aligned on the opportunity
• 19:24
  - here. And...
• 19:25
  - But, again, there's a lot of technicalities
• 19:27
  - involved. And so the fastest way to get
• 19:30
  - something done so that creators can have access
• 19:32
  - to these resources is to issue guidance that
• 19:35
  - creators should file under five one two one
• 19:37
  - and that banks should look at creators on
• 19:38
  - the five one two one code family. Again,
• 19:40
  - we still have our comment out to office
• 19:43
  - of management budget. We still believe that creators
• 19:46
  - deserve
• 19:47
  - our own
• 19:48
  - NAICS code. Our hope is that we will
• 19:51
  - get our own NAICS code once they, review
• 19:53
  - comments,
• 19:54
  - in this cycle. And if not, we'll be
• 19:56
  - back in five years advocating for it yet
• 19:58
  - again. Oh, it's only every five years that
• 20:00
  - you can add add more classifications
• 20:02
  - to the code structure? Is that how it
• 20:04
  - works? That's correct. Yes. Okay.
• 20:07
  - So it's a long, long slog to get
• 20:09
  - this done. Yeah. What reason that we want
• 20:12
  - our own code is specifically around, measurement. So,
• 20:16
  - right now, creators are basically invisible to the
• 20:18
  - federal government. All these stats that I've been
• 20:20
  - talking about, you know, 27,000,000
• 20:22
  - creators and making money and 12,800,000
• 20:25
  - creators, or 11,800,000
• 20:27
  - creators full time, These are third party statistics
• 20:31
  - compiled by third party consultancies,
• 20:33
  - private research firms, etcetera. They are not government
• 20:36
  - data. And government data is the best data,
• 20:38
  - and policymakers prefer to look at government data
• 20:41
  - to make
• 20:42
  - policy. The problem is
• 20:44
  - there has been no way to measure
• 20:47
  - the creator economy because creators don't have our
• 20:49
  - code. Right? Labor department uses these codes to
• 20:52
  - identify,
• 20:53
  - you know, the industry's impacts on,
• 20:56
  - American
• 20:57
  - labor force. The IRS uses this,
• 21:00
  - NAICS codes to
• 21:01
  - parse out, you know, the industry impact on
• 21:04
  - tax,
• 21:05
  - revenues. Even census uses the NAICS codes to
• 21:08
  - count the number of people working in different
• 21:10
  - industries and how different industries are. Right? And
• 21:13
  - so without our own NAICS code, we are
• 21:15
  - effectively invisible. Now be... Filing under the five
• 21:17
  - one two one code
• 21:19
  - may make it easier
• 21:22
  - to count some level of impact. I'm sure
• 21:24
  - the brilliant people at these various departments and
• 21:26
  - the economists can do some fancy statistics to
• 21:29
  - parse out, you know, new filers versus old
• 21:31
  - filers to see some level of creator economy
• 21:34
  - impact. But until we have our own code,
• 21:36
  - we'll be mixed in with more legacy industries
• 21:39
  - like film and television.
• 21:40
  - And so our impact as a stand alone
• 21:44
  - industry,
• 21:44
  - which, you know, I think everyone listening to
• 21:46
  - this would agree that digital content creators are
• 21:48
  - a stand alone industry separate from
• 21:50
  - radio, film, TV, etcetera. Our impact as a
• 21:53
  - stand alone industry will be extremely difficult to
• 21:55
  - measure until we have our own NAICS code
• 21:57
  - and the ability for
• 21:59
  - government data collectors and and data scientists to
• 22:02
  - to analyze that data.
• 22:03
  - Yeah. So so
• 22:05
  - if a if a creator uses this code,
• 22:09
  - the
• 22:10
  - the application of it doesn't have to be
• 22:12
  - doesn't have to be labeled as a podcaster
• 22:14
  - or as a YouTuber or anything like that.
• 22:16
  - It can just be... There's a company name.
• 22:19
  - It's associated with that that,
• 22:22
  - that particular number, that 5121
• 22:25
  - number
• 22:26
  - on your on your business filing
• 22:29
  - or on your your application for a loan
• 22:32
  - or something like that, and that puts it
• 22:33
  - into a a big broad bucket of sorts.
• 22:36
  - Correct. And the 512.
• 22:38
  - Correct. That's correct. Based on the SBA's guidance.
• 22:40
  - So five one two one is a code
• 22:42
  - family. I think there's actually four or five
• 22:44
  - six digit numbers under that family. And so
• 22:47
  - creators should just look at
• 22:49
  - those
• 22:50
  - sort of the the different,
• 22:51
  - numbers within that family and pick the one
• 22:53
  - that fits them the best.
• 22:55
  - Yeah. Definitely. So so how does this all
• 22:58
  - fit into... I I got an email from
• 23:00
  - Chase Bank just earlier today saying that there's
• 23:04
  - money to be
• 23:06
  - captured
• 23:07
  - in a range of creating loans for small
• 23:10
  - businesses, ones that had had had any kind
• 23:13
  - of relation to AI or anything like that.
• 23:16
  - I mean,
• 23:17
  - is this part of that big beautiful bill
• 23:19
  - that was signed by
• 23:21
  - the Trump administration,
• 23:22
  - or is there any connection between
• 23:25
  - all these things that that that are happening,
• 23:28
  - as far as you know, or are they
• 23:29
  - they separate from each other?
• 23:31
  - I think the big beautiful bill is separate
• 23:33
  - from this guidance. But as I mentioned, the,
• 23:36
  - Small Business Administration
• 23:37
  - is a federal agency, and administrator Kelly Loeffler
• 23:40
  - is part of the cabinet.
• 23:42
  - And so, you know, I would say that
• 23:44
  - DC in general
• 23:46
  - is
• 23:47
  - starting to notice creators and pay attention. I
• 23:49
  - think there's been a lot of conversation about
• 23:51
  - how
• 23:52
  - podcasts past...
• 23:53
  - Podcasters especially,
• 23:56
  - video creators and content creators in general Right.
• 23:58
  - Had a big impact in the last election
• 24:00
  - or having a big impact in this election,
• 24:02
  - and and I think everyone expects them to
• 24:04
  - continue to. And so I think there's also
• 24:06
  - starting to be an understanding that creators are
• 24:10
  - the new media ecosystem.
• 24:12
  - And
• 24:13
  - and my goal is to continue to educate
• 24:16
  - our lawmakers
• 24:17
  - on both sides of the aisle about how
• 24:19
  - creators aren't just a media ecosystem. We are
• 24:22
  - a new small business economy in America.
• 24:26
  - Companies of all sizes are creating content, but
• 24:28
  - companies... Small businesses of all sizes are also
• 24:31
  - either launching as content creators or becoming content
• 24:33
  - creators. And not just, you know, to have
• 24:36
  - content as the product, but, you know, for
• 24:37
  - example, one of the best bars in America
• 24:40
  - listed on the 50 best bars, bar called
• 24:42
  - Schmuck in New York,
• 24:43
  - they... Well before the bar opened, they launched
• 24:47
  - through their founders' Instagram accounts. They were promoting
• 24:50
  - the different cocktails they were gonna make and
• 24:52
  - the space that they're setting up and design.
• 24:54
  - And and so their their founders were
• 24:57
  - creators,
• 24:58
  - and, they're creators who happen to open a
• 25:01
  - bar. And now that bar is one of
• 25:02
  - the... You know, listed as one of the
• 25:04
  - best in North America.
• 25:05
  - And I think
• 25:07
  - we're gonna see that trend
• 25:09
  - only grow. Right? We're seeing it a lot
• 25:11
  - already on places like LinkedIn,
• 25:13
  - in podcasting, and newsletters where, you know, people
• 25:15
  - are,
• 25:16
  - leaving their jobs or getting laid off and
• 25:19
  - starting their own businesses, offering their own freelance
• 25:22
  - services,
• 25:23
  - starting agencies, that kind of thing, using the,
• 25:26
  - you know, expertise they've built up over, you
• 25:28
  - know, ten, twenty year careers. And instead of,
• 25:30
  - you know, sending out flyers or mailers like
• 25:33
  - you used to twenty years ago, now they're
• 25:36
  - making content on LinkedIn or starting a newsletter
• 25:39
  - and sending it to their connections because that's
• 25:41
  - kind of the new customer acquisition channel that
• 25:44
  - is low cost, high impact. Yeah. Yeah. It's
• 25:47
  - all part of this liquid content era that's
• 25:50
  - being defined out there that can include a
• 25:53
  - lot of different types of, you know, media
• 25:55
  - content of sorts.
• 25:57
  - Have you heard any any interest that's being
• 25:59
  - expressed by the FCC
• 26:01
  - because of all this, or is it not
• 26:03
  - reached that level where that there could potentially
• 26:06
  - be some more
• 26:07
  - involvement of the FCC in, online
• 26:10
  - and creator content? I'm just curious if you
• 26:13
  - have any thoughts on that.
• 26:14
  - We have not...
• 26:16
  - There isn't anything I can share about the
• 26:18
  - FCC's involvement in any of this. Yeah. But
• 26:21
  - I will say that, you know, every government
• 26:23
  - agency that touches this space, FCC, FTC,
• 26:26
  - etcetera, are all looking at it and thinking
• 26:29
  - about it now. More of them... More and
• 26:30
  - more of them are starting to think about
• 26:31
  - it,
• 26:33
  - because it is becoming a bigger and bigger
• 26:34
  - part of
• 26:35
  - the broader economy.
• 26:37
  - Yeah. And as the larger media companies,
• 26:40
  - shift towards doing more in the creator economy.
• 26:43
  - Actually, these, these worlds are converging on each
• 26:46
  - other, aren't they? So, you know, you know,
• 26:49
  - these new classifications,
• 26:51
  - though, it sounds like they're potentially not going
• 26:53
  - to be here for another five years potentially.
• 26:55
  - Or was there a cutoff,
• 26:58
  - you know, like, two years ago or something
• 26:59
  - like that that, you guys applied for? Or,
• 27:03
  - you know this was all over the summer.
• 27:04
  - So it's still Oh, okay. It was just
• 27:06
  - past They haven't announced any, you know, they
• 27:09
  - haven't announced the new codes or whether they've
• 27:11
  - accepted or denied our our comments. So there's
• 27:15
  - still hope there. Okay. And the SBA has
• 27:17
  - been supportive of that effort as well.
• 27:19
  - You know, this this code,
• 27:21
  - system right now is a stop gap, and
• 27:23
  - hopefully, we will be able to give creators
• 27:26
  - their own codes in the future.
• 27:27
  - So how did you guys go about advocating
• 27:30
  - for this? I mean, did you have to
• 27:32
  - go talk to members of congress? Did you
• 27:35
  - just talk to the administrators of the SBA?
• 27:37
  - Or
• 27:38
  - what was the advocacy
• 27:40
  - or the lobbying effort that went into
• 27:43
  - doing this? I'm just curious about the infrastructure
• 27:46
  - that you're involved in and how it all
• 27:48
  - works. Yeah. So, we talked to everybody we
• 27:51
  - could. As I mentioned, Sheryl Azar put together
• 27:53
  - a creator day of advocacy.
• 27:54
  - I was there representing the Creators Guild, and
• 27:58
  - we we spoke to private companies and their
• 28:01
  - policy teams. We spoke to
• 28:03
  - industry organizations like NAB.
• 28:05
  - Okay. We we did speak to members of
• 28:07
  - congress. As you'll know, there's a there's a
• 28:10
  - congressional creator caucus. They just announced the senate
• 28:12
  - creator caucus. I think Sherry was involved in
• 28:14
  - both of those. You know, we we met
• 28:15
  - with, you know, Republican congresswoman Beth Van Dyne,
• 28:18
  - who is the Republican chair of the creator
• 28:20
  - caucus. We met with Democratic congressman Ro Khanna,
• 28:22
  - who is the Democratic chair of the creator
• 28:24
  - caucus. So
• 28:25
  - we
• 28:26
  - were we were definitely speaking to congresspeople, and
• 28:28
  - then we also met with folks from different
• 28:30
  - federal agencies. And the SBA,
• 28:33
  - you know, we met with their head of
• 28:34
  - comms, Michael Joyce, and he was immediately very
• 28:36
  - supportive.
• 28:37
  - He brought it back to their team, brought
• 28:39
  - it back to administrator Loeffler.
• 28:41
  - She was very supportive. I think she really
• 28:43
  - appreciates and understands creators and the creator economy.
• 28:46
  - I mean, if you look at her Instagram,
• 28:48
  - she is something of a content creator herself.
• 28:50
  - She interviews small businesses and,
• 28:53
  - does collabs with creators and really kinda gets
• 28:56
  - what is happening right now and is and
• 28:58
  - is actively part of it. And so she
• 29:01
  - understood what we're doing and was supportive of
• 29:03
  - the effort. And so then it was just
• 29:04
  - about figuring out what policy would work. And
• 29:06
  - so we were throwing policies back and forth.
• 29:08
  - On their side, they were checking
• 29:10
  - internally and across different agencies what was possible,
• 29:13
  - what was not,
• 29:14
  - technically. And, ultimately,
• 29:16
  - we landed on on this this outcome, which
• 29:19
  - is an amazing outcome. Recognition of creators,
• 29:22
  - access to SBA loans, access to federal contracts,
• 29:24
  - access
• 29:25
  - to SBA mentorship. I mean, you know,
• 29:28
  - what an amazing first achievement
• 29:31
  - for creators in in DC.
• 29:33
  - Yeah. Sure. Is gonna be on the show
• 29:35
  - in a couple of weeks, so she couldn't
• 29:37
  - join us tonight. But, but, yeah, I'll get
• 29:39
  - her thoughts too. Yeah. I've known,
• 29:42
  - share for many, many years. Yeah. She's an,
• 29:44
  - she's an OG in the space for sure.
• 29:46
  - Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She's been around the
• 29:47
  - podcasting space since the early days of it.
• 29:50
  - But,
• 29:51
  - yeah, this is a very interesting time for
• 29:55
  - the emergence
• 29:56
  - of the importance of,
• 29:58
  - the online media space. I mean, it's been
• 30:00
  - a long time coming. I mean, it's not
• 30:01
  - like podcasting is a new medium here or
• 30:04
  - even YouTube.
• 30:05
  - Both podcasting and YouTube have had a very
• 30:08
  - similar timeline
• 30:10
  - of
• 30:11
  - activation. It's just taken this long
• 30:13
  - really to get the... Get... Reach the level
• 30:16
  - where it was taken seriously by
• 30:19
  - by the government and by, you know,
• 30:21
  - policymakers.
• 30:22
  - And it's interesting that it's happening now. It's...
• 30:25
  - I mean, it's interesting to me that it's
• 30:26
  - happening now. I've been in this medium a
• 30:28
  - long time. Yeah. Well, I think it had
• 30:30
  - to be taken seriously by the media ecosystem
• 30:32
  - first. Right? Like, I remember when I was
• 30:34
  - building or a person like yourself actually going
• 30:36
  - in there and advocating for it. I'm not
• 30:38
  - sure that there was anybody doing that prior.
• 30:41
  - That's true. That's true. I mean, you know,
• 30:42
  - I... I've been in the podcast space for
• 30:44
  - more than a decade, and and
• 30:46
  - I remember vividly, you know, I was hired
• 30:48
  - to build a a a digital media business
• 30:51
  - for a company, and one of the executives
• 30:53
  - at that company had come from,
• 30:56
  - a major studio.
• 30:57
  - I can't remember which one, like n... NBC
• 30:59
  - or Yeah. Universal or something. You know, something
• 31:01
  - like that. And,
• 31:03
  - and he was, like, a... The president, high,
• 31:05
  - high level exec at at the studio and,
• 31:08
  - you know, MBA type. And so
• 31:10
  - I presented the strategy. Part of the strategy
• 31:13
  - was we're gonna partner with top creators. We're
• 31:15
  - gonna launch their podcasts, and we're gonna co
• 31:17
  - monetize that with them. And this is in
• 31:19
  - 2019. And he said to me, he's like,
• 31:21
  - why would we include podcasts in this? The
• 31:23
  - entire podcast industry is less than $1,000,000,000.
• 31:27
  - We're... We can't make any money this way.
• 31:29
  - And, you know, my response was, it might
• 31:31
  - be that way now, but it will not
• 31:33
  - be that way in the next few years.
• 31:35
  - And a few months later,
• 31:38
  - Spotify announced the Joe Rogan deal.
• 31:40
  - The, you know, the the podcast ecosystem exploded.
• 31:44
  - Deals are flying everywhere.
• 31:45
  - Advertisers coming in. COVID happened.
• 31:48
  - More people became podcasters. More creators became podcasters.
• 31:51
  - Celebrities become podcasters. Brands start advertising in the
• 31:54
  - space in a much bigger way. And now
• 31:55
  - the podcast ecosystem is many billions of dollars
• 31:58
  - and and growing quickly. And so I think,
• 32:02
  - you know, I guess I was right. But
• 32:04
  - I think that had to happen because if
• 32:06
  - if someone coming from
• 32:08
  - the traditional media ecosystem looked at the space
• 32:10
  - and said, this isn't real. Why are we
• 32:11
  - paying attention? Then, of course, you know, DC
• 32:14
  - is gonna look at it and say, why
• 32:16
  - would we pay attention to this? Right? And
• 32:19
  - so today, every Hollywood company has podcast business,
• 32:22
  - a digital media business. They're all trying to
• 32:24
  - figure out how do they make more money
• 32:26
  - on YouTube
• 32:28
  - because their traditional ecosystem selling the television,
• 32:31
  - films, those are all all shrinking.
• 32:33
  - And they're watching YouTube, for example, eat their
• 32:36
  - market share. Right? YouTube just,
• 32:38
  - you know, revealed by, Nielsen to be more
• 32:41
  - than twice as much
• 32:43
  - of TV screen time
• 32:45
  - Mhmm.
• 32:46
  - As Netflix. And so this whole ecosystem has
• 32:49
  - completely shifted,
• 32:50
  - and now Hollywood has figured it out. And
• 32:52
  - so now that the now that the the
• 32:55
  - gatekeepers
• 32:56
  - and the bigwigs and the the big money
• 32:59
  - billion dollar companies are starting to get worried
• 33:02
  - and and start to look at how can
• 33:04
  - they get more involved in the space, of
• 33:06
  - course, DC will follow them. Yeah. Well, I
• 33:09
  - think that... I mean, a lot of the
• 33:11
  - larger media companies,
• 33:13
  - should be a little worried about this. This
• 33:14
  - is a big shift in audience consumption of
• 33:17
  - content.
• 33:18
  - And, yeah, I would love to shift to
• 33:21
  - talking more about the creator economy too and
• 33:23
  - how that... How you see this change impacting
• 33:27
  - that it... As we look to the future
• 33:29
  - in the next, you know, five years. So
• 33:32
  - how do you see things being different even
• 33:33
  - in five years, which is a long time
• 33:35
  - in the online creator space, really, where this
• 33:39
  - specific code would have a big impact? And
• 33:42
  - is there some, you know, what's the fallout
• 33:45
  - from that? I mean, what other aspects of
• 33:47
  - government involvement do you see potentially happening with,
• 33:50
  - you know, recognition
• 33:52
  - by
• 33:53
  - the legislature
• 33:55
  - and Congress
• 33:57
  - and the senate and the president and all
• 33:59
  - these actually recognizing the creator economy is something
• 34:02
  - that's, impactful. Is that gonna bring more regulation?
• 34:06
  - Is it gonna bring more
• 34:08
  - other things too is what I'm curious about.
• 34:10
  - Yeah. It's a great question. Yeah. At the
• 34:12
  - CGA, we believe that creators are the future
• 34:14
  - of work.
• 34:15
  - So, you know, big picture, I'm sure everybody
• 34:17
  - kind of understands, like, you know, the job
• 34:20
  - market is shrinking. Right? Despite the the way
• 34:22
  - economists describe our unemployment rate around 4%,
• 34:26
  - You know, if you look at functional unemployment
• 34:28
  - Yeah. I think it's a little higher than
• 34:29
  - that. Much higher. Right? So functional unemployment, you
• 34:32
  - know, for those that don't know, includes people
• 34:35
  - who have given up. And so Yeah. Right.
• 34:37
  - They're not counted in unemployment, which is crazy
• 34:40
  - to me. So we put them back into
• 34:41
  - the numbers, but but it also includes people
• 34:43
  - who are
• 34:44
  - making less than a poverty wage. So people
• 34:47
  - who are Underemployed
• 34:48
  - or they're Correct. They're on the, you know,
• 34:50
  - the folks that work for Amazon that are
• 34:52
  - on food stamps or people who are working
• 34:55
  - full time jobs and living in their cars,
• 34:58
  - which there's a lot of them here in
• 35:00
  - LA,
• 35:01
  - or people who are only working up and
• 35:03
  - down the West Coast. All up and down
• 35:04
  - the West Coast. Right. Gig workers who are
• 35:06
  - only working part time. And, you know, if
• 35:08
  - you're not able to pay the bills, then
• 35:10
  - you shouldn't count as fully employed. That is...
• 35:12
  - That doesn't make any sense. Right? So if
• 35:13
  - you if you add those people back in,
• 35:15
  - suddenly the unemployment rate is around 25%
• 35:18
  - and growing. That's the functional unemployment rate in
• 35:20
  - The US. And so what we're seeing
• 35:23
  - is an explosion in self employment,
• 35:26
  - largely driven by content. People are becoming content
• 35:29
  - creators,
• 35:30
  - and they're using their content to drive these
• 35:32
  - small businesses where they're selling services, they're selling,
• 35:36
  - digital products, they're selling membership and community,
• 35:39
  - whatever they can do to make money. And
• 35:42
  - we see this only growing and only expanding.
• 35:44
  - So this is the future of work. Yeah.
• 35:46
  - And even it's AI based businesses too are
• 35:49
  - are keyless. And that was part of that
• 35:51
  - that email that I got from Chase Bank
• 35:54
  - was that there is a push towards
• 35:57
  - trying to support,
• 35:58
  - AI
• 35:59
  - businesses,
• 36:00
  - small businesses as well. And a lot of
• 36:03
  - times, those things kinda go together. The creator
• 36:06
  - side goes together with the creator side note.
• 36:08
  - That's my business. I'm in AI stuff as
• 36:10
  - well as in content creation. So, you know,
• 36:13
  - these things can come together, and it's gonna
• 36:16
  - create a much different future,
• 36:18
  - than Yes. Absolutely. The company that we have
• 36:20
  - had. Yeah. AI is great for people who
• 36:23
  - are running their own businesses and terrible for
• 36:25
  - people who are working for a business.
• 36:27
  - Yeah. Well I mean, that's just the truth.
• 36:29
  - But, you know, you look at, like like,
• 36:30
  - jobs
• 36:31
  - are a fairly new concept. Right? Before the
• 36:33
  - industrial evolution, people really didn't have jobs. You
• 36:36
  - were... Everyone was an entrepreneur or you worked
• 36:38
  - for a small business. Right? There weren't big
• 36:40
  - corporations.
• 36:41
  - You know, the largest organizations people worked for
• 36:43
  - were governments.
• 36:44
  - You know, you might be a farmer, a
• 36:46
  - blacksmith, or a cobbler, whatever, or maybe you
• 36:48
  - worked for the farmer, the blacks with the
• 36:50
  - cobble. You had these apprentice systems and guilds
• 36:52
  - and all that. And,
• 36:54
  - and then the industrial revolution
• 36:56
  - happened. Production
• 36:57
  - was able to scale massively and thus required
• 37:00
  - humans
• 37:00
  - to scale massively.
• 37:02
  - And and then, you know, we we got
• 37:04
  - all these giant corporations, but technology has kinda
• 37:07
  - come full circle Yeah. And is making it
• 37:10
  - possible for,
• 37:11
  - a very small number of people to scale
• 37:13
  - production in a very big way. And that
• 37:16
  - is only gonna continue. Right? Factories
• 37:18
  - eventually... Like, you know, there are factories that
• 37:20
  - can output
• 37:21
  - thousands of units of product a day with,
• 37:24
  - like, three or four people on the factory
• 37:26
  - floor. And soon, that'll... There'll be zero. Right?
• 37:28
  - In China, there are a bunch that have
• 37:30
  - zero.
• 37:31
  - Yeah. And
• 37:32
  - and and so, you know, it's not just
• 37:35
  - digital
• 37:36
  - product that this is affecting. It's also gonna
• 37:37
  - affect physical products as well. And so, you
• 37:39
  - know, that is bad if you were working
• 37:41
  - for the factory, but it's good if you
• 37:43
  - have an idea for a product that you
• 37:45
  - wanna sell.
• 37:46
  - And what I think is so great about
• 37:48
  - this opportunity now for creators to access these
• 37:51
  - SBA loans is that it's gonna make it
• 37:53
  - possible for creators to
• 37:56
  - launch
• 37:57
  - new businesses
• 37:58
  - in
• 37:59
  - more physical and capital intensive industries. Right? You
• 38:02
  - know, like, a lot of creators right now,
• 38:04
  - they're launching businesses,
• 38:05
  - selling products or services. They're largely online. They're
• 38:08
  - largely virtual
• 38:09
  - goods, digital products,
• 38:11
  - services delivered online.
• 38:14
  - And some of them are starting to do
• 38:15
  - things like IRL events.
• 38:17
  - You know, there are a few here and
• 38:18
  - there like that bar I mentioned that are
• 38:20
  - doing, you know, retail locations, physical locations. Yeah.
• 38:23
  - I think that is going to
• 38:24
  - grow tremendously. Right? I work out of a
• 38:26
  - coworking space for creators in, here in LA,
• 38:29
  - and and almost every creator, I talk to
• 38:32
  - there is working on some sort of product.
• 38:33
  - Right? But that costs money. It costs money
• 38:35
  - to do the product development. It costs money
• 38:37
  - to to buy the samples.
• 38:40
  - It costs money to, buy the inventory. And
• 38:42
  - so...
• 38:43
  - Excuse me. And and if you're a creator
• 38:44
  - that wants to open a bar or launch
• 38:45
  - a coffee shop, a retail space, whatever it
• 38:48
  - is, that also costs money. You gotta be
• 38:50
  - able to pay the down payment. You gotta
• 38:51
  - be able to pay the rent for months
• 38:53
  - on end before you open. You gotta be
• 38:55
  - able to buy all the stuff you need
• 38:56
  - to put in there. So all these businesses
• 38:58
  - are much more capital intensive than digital
• 39:01
  - businesses
• 39:02
  - have been Yeah. In in the last few
• 39:04
  - decades. They need need capital to build out
• 39:07
  - And these products and services. Yeah. Exactly. And
• 39:10
  - it's been very hard to get access to
• 39:12
  - capital
• 39:13
  - for creators historically, and that is about to
• 39:15
  - change in a big way. And so now
• 39:17
  - you can imagine, like, you know, there's, for
• 39:20
  - example, like, a creator I follow that reviews,
• 39:23
  - you know, junk food in LA and,
• 39:26
  - you know, makes it look great, buys a
• 39:28
  - big, delicious looking quesadilla and shows it all
• 39:31
  - dripping cheese and eats it and gets tons
• 39:33
  - of views in the area. And then, you
• 39:34
  - know, the places he goes
• 39:36
  - get a big spike in business in the
• 39:38
  - following weeks. Right? You can see a guy
• 39:40
  - like that launching his own, you know, burger
• 39:42
  - stand or taco stand or whatever. Right? And
• 39:44
  - and it's gonna become a lot easier for
• 39:46
  - him to do that now. And
• 39:48
  - so I think over the next five years,
• 39:50
  - we're gonna see an explosion in
• 39:53
  - creator businesses
• 39:54
  - that are selling physical goods,
• 39:57
  - driving people to retail and physical and IRL
• 40:00
  - in real life locations.
• 40:02
  - And you're gonna see creators really integrating much
• 40:04
  - more with the broader
• 40:06
  - small business economy and the broader economy in
• 40:08
  - general. And I think access to capital is
• 40:10
  - gonna be a big linchpin in that. Yeah.
• 40:12
  - And I think one kind of merging platform...
• 40:15
  - You know, I think there's two of them.
• 40:17
  - It's the the TikTok shop and a platform
• 40:20
  - called Whatnot. I don't know if you're familiar
• 40:22
  - with Yep. That one, but it's where it's
• 40:24
  - merging these concepts together. You're a digital
• 40:27
  - video creator at the same time. You're building
• 40:30
  - an ecommerce business,
• 40:32
  - at the same time, and you're able to,
• 40:34
  - you know, almost like a shopping channel type
• 40:36
  - of a platform
• 40:38
  - is what what it is. It's converging all
• 40:40
  - these things together.
• 40:41
  - Yes. But what's interesting in those is those
• 40:43
  - categories is,
• 40:44
  - you know, with both of them, the creator
• 40:47
  - doesn't own the product. The creator doesn't own
• 40:48
  - the brand. Right? It's a... Another company that
• 40:51
  - is not a creator
• 40:52
  - that has made the products, that has marketed
• 40:54
  - the products, that is paying the creator
• 40:56
  - a rev share or a fee to market
• 40:59
  - that product. Well, that's not always the case.
• 41:00
  - There's people that are creating products live on
• 41:03
  - these streams
• 41:04
  - and selling them. It could be art. It
• 41:06
  - could be Yes. Print Those are one off
• 41:09
  - products. Right? Those are one off products. Because
• 41:11
  - they're, like, artistic creations. Yeah. No doubt that
• 41:13
  - is certainly the case. But what I think
• 41:15
  - is interesting here is there are people who
• 41:17
  - are not creators
• 41:18
  - generating massive equity value
• 41:20
  - from the work of creators. Right? So right.
• 41:23
  - If you make a supplement brand and then
• 41:25
  - you put it on TikTok shop, you get
• 41:27
  - a bunch of creators to sell it for
• 41:28
  - you. The creators are making cash from what
• 41:30
  - they sell, but every dollar they make is
• 41:33
  - actually worth
• 41:34
  - $5
• 41:35
  - to somebody who buys that company. And the
• 41:37
  - creators aren't gonna get that. You're gonna get
• 41:38
  - that. Right? And so
• 41:40
  - what this will enable is creators to
• 41:43
  - start that cell phone business themselves,
• 41:45
  - disintermediate
• 41:46
  - the noncreators that are making these products and
• 41:49
  - ultimately accruing all of the equity value. And
• 41:51
  - so now these creators who are gonna be
• 41:53
  - launching these products
• 41:54
  - through capital that they're getting from the SBA
• 41:57
  - and probably other organizations and other capital opportunities
• 42:00
  - as well. Right? Like, this this is gonna
• 42:01
  - stimulate the whole market.
• 42:03
  - They are gonna be able to build equity
• 42:04
  - value
• 42:05
  - in a much bigger way. And I think
• 42:06
  - that is... That's been one of the benefits
• 42:09
  - of starting a small business. Right? It's like
• 42:10
  - you run your small business, and eventually, you
• 42:12
  - sell your small business. And that's been very
• 42:14
  - hard to do as a creator because someone
• 42:16
  - else is accruing the equity value for a
• 42:17
  - lot of work that you do. I think
• 42:19
  - that's about to change. Yeah. I think a
• 42:20
  - lot of... In the early years, the online
• 42:22
  - content space, it was really a,
• 42:25
  - like, a free resource to these larger companies.
• 42:29
  - You know, podcasting in the early years was,
• 42:31
  - you know, was almost like a hobby business
• 42:33
  - of sorts, and people were publishing content into
• 42:36
  - these platforms just because they were trying to
• 42:38
  - reach people.
• 42:39
  - It wasn't like they were trying to build
• 42:41
  - a business around it in the early years
• 42:43
  - of the creator economy. And so we've seen
• 42:46
  - a a shift towards these media creators
• 42:49
  - creating
• 42:50
  - real businesses around their
• 42:52
  - their content. And that's the real big shift
• 42:56
  - that's happened. And you've probably seen it in
• 42:57
  - your experience over the years being in this
• 43:00
  - medium too, where in the early years, people
• 43:02
  - weren't really worried about making money from doing
• 43:05
  - online content. It was more about reach and
• 43:08
  - and trying to build a community maybe to
• 43:10
  - some degree, but it was really just about
• 43:12
  - one way communication of sorts.
• 43:15
  - And... But now we're in a completely different
• 43:17
  - area... Era. It's an interactive.
• 43:19
  - It's
• 43:20
  - it's trying to create a business around all
• 43:23
  - sorts of aspects. And I agree with, you
• 43:25
  - know, what's happening here, and I agree with
• 43:27
  - what you're doing. And I think that this
• 43:28
  - is
• 43:29
  - a very practical
• 43:31
  - kind of result of what we're
• 43:34
  - seeing happen in the market. And, you know,
• 43:36
  - we're transforming this whole economy into something that's
• 43:39
  - that's new, but, hopefully, it actually
• 43:42
  - takes us back to real world kind of
• 43:44
  - business activities too. And I think that's also
• 43:47
  - what you're saying here, too. So in a
• 43:48
  - lot of ways, we're kind of reinventing
• 43:51
  - the economy of sorts here. I know. Is
• 43:53
  - that aligned with your thoughts, too? Yeah. I
• 43:56
  - I love how you put it. We are
• 43:57
  - reinventing the economy. I always say the creator
• 43:59
  - economy is becoming the economy. Right? If big
• 44:01
  - companies
• 44:02
  - are becoming creators, we're seeing a push from
• 44:04
  - big companies for employees to start creating content
• 44:06
  - on the company's behalf.
• 44:08
  - Executives and founders are becoming creators.
• 44:11
  - You know? I mean, I remember recently, like,
• 44:13
  - the McDonald's CEO went viral posting a video
• 44:15
  - eating a burger, and lots of companies are
• 44:17
  - trying to copy that even beyond just the
• 44:19
  - social media team's work, which many companies are
• 44:22
  - investing more and more heavily in. And so,
• 44:24
  - you know, we're seeing at the big company
• 44:26
  - level, the creator economy
• 44:28
  - and the economy emerging. And, of course, at
• 44:30
  - the small business level,
• 44:32
  - this has been happening for years now and
• 44:35
  - is only accelerating. And and this recognition by
• 44:38
  - the SBA is a big sign that that's
• 44:40
  - gonna keep going. Yeah. Because, I mean, this
• 44:42
  - number that even was on the SBA's website
• 44:45
  - of 27,000,000
• 44:46
  - creator led businesses.
• 44:48
  - I mean, what's the percentage of of businesses
• 44:51
  - in the whole United States?
• 44:53
  - You know,
• 44:54
  - as it compares
• 44:56
  - to just the creator businesses, is it 20%,
• 45:00
  - 30% of the total
• 45:02
  - amount of businesses in the whole country? I
• 45:04
  - I kinda wonder what the answer to that
• 45:06
  - question is. That's a great question. I actually
• 45:08
  - don't know that off the top of my
• 45:09
  - head. I... If I remember correctly, it is
• 45:12
  - somewhere between 1020%,
• 45:14
  - but don't quote me on that. That's actually
• 45:16
  - a huge much. That's a huge chunk of
• 45:18
  - It's a huge chunk. It's a huge chunk.
• 45:19
  - Yeah.
• 45:20
  - And a lot of those a lot of
• 45:21
  - those businesses aren't registered.
• 45:23
  - They aren't... You know, it's in... It's solo
• 45:25
  - practitioners.
• 45:26
  - Yeah. They don't have access to resources. They've
• 45:28
  - never even thought of it as a business.
• 45:30
  - And so now I think that,
• 45:32
  - you know, our goal at the CGA
• 45:34
  - is not just to win these these
• 45:37
  - opportunities for creators, but to then educate creators
• 45:39
  - on how they can take advantage of them.
• 45:41
  - You know, we just launched a SBA one
• 45:43
  - zero one mini course for free on the
• 45:46
  - Creators Guild site so you can learn exactly
• 45:48
  - what to do in order to take advantage
• 45:50
  - of these benefits. We have an FTC one
• 45:52
  - zero one course where you can learn how
• 45:54
  - to make sure you don't get sued doing
• 45:56
  - brand partnerships and you're disclosing probably and all
• 45:58
  - that. And we do a lot more education
• 46:00
  - work as well so that our members and
• 46:02
  - creators more broadly
• 46:03
  - can understand
• 46:05
  - that they're running a business, how to do
• 46:07
  - it properly, and and how
• 46:09
  - to be buttoned up about it. Yeah. Well,
• 46:12
  - there's
• 46:13
  - there's creators that are out there that are
• 46:15
  - teaching other creators
• 46:17
  - how to go about this, you know, from
• 46:18
  - an accounting standpoint,
• 46:20
  - finance
• 46:21
  - to, you know, creator lawyers of sorts
• 46:24
  - that are out there doing shows and and
• 46:27
  - helping educate other content creators that maybe haven't...
• 46:30
  - Like like you said, they're maybe like a
• 46:31
  - sole proprietor or something like that, and they're
• 46:33
  - not organized
• 46:35
  - under an LLC. And so helping them understand
• 46:39
  - and
• 46:40
  - and maybe
• 46:42
  - getting an accountant or working with, you know,
• 46:44
  - some some sort of online accounting.
• 46:46
  - Yeah. That's it. I'm I'm one of those
• 46:48
  - creators. You know? I, my my business is
• 46:51
  - called Creator Access Network.
• 46:52
  - I do a newsletter every week where I
• 46:54
  - interview creators who have under a 100,000
• 46:56
  - followers but make over a $100,000
• 46:59
  - about how they do it. Yeah. So our
• 47:00
  - newsletter,
• 47:01
  - subscribers can kinda learn from these people that
• 47:03
  - are making outsized revenue
• 47:05
  - based on their audience size. And then we
• 47:07
  - even have a membership where creators can get
• 47:10
  - discounts on different tools and services. Right? Everything
• 47:12
  - from, you know, recording software to
• 47:15
  - accountants and lawyers to course and membership platforms.
• 47:20
  - And so, you know, like, I'm one of
• 47:21
  - these... I call them meta creators,
• 47:23
  - you know, creators talking about the business of
• 47:25
  - content creation. Yeah.
• 47:27
  - Because I'm like that. Billions of people. You
• 47:30
  - absolutely are. This... They... You absolutely are. Yep.
• 47:32
  - Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting,
• 47:35
  - time, and I think... I I don't know
• 47:36
  - if you have any advice for creators out
• 47:38
  - there if they should contact their local SBA
• 47:41
  - office
• 47:43
  - and establish, you know, you know, contact with
• 47:46
  - them. Is there a way for creators to
• 47:49
  - create an account with the SBA or whatever
• 47:51
  - and kinda get into the ecosystem? And should
• 47:53
  - they do that at this point, you think?
• 47:55
  - Yeah. I think the easiest thing they can
• 47:57
  - do right now is go to the Creators
• 47:59
  - Guild website and take the SBA one zero
• 48:01
  - one course because that lays out everything you
• 48:03
  - can do,
• 48:04
  - how to get in touch with the SBDCs,
• 48:06
  - which is the small business development centers,
• 48:09
  - how to
• 48:10
  - apply for your SBA loans, all of that.
• 48:13
  - So that's creator... Creators guild of america dot
• 48:15
  - org. Yeah. I thought I had that here
• 48:18
  - up.
• 48:19
  - Yeah.
• 48:20
  - Okay. Is that it there? No. It's not.
• 48:23
  - No. This is the, the the press release.
• 48:25
  - It might be in menu.
• 48:27
  - Yeah.
• 48:28
  - Okay. Yeah. This is the home page of
• 48:30
  - it here. Right? So you got...... See if
• 48:32
  - I can pull it up for you. Got
• 48:34
  - a you got a menu there. It looks
• 48:37
  - like that you can join the
• 48:40
  - guild
• 48:41
  - right here. So you just, sign up. Just
• 48:44
  - put your name in there and
• 48:46
  - create an account. And I think you're all
• 48:47
  - set on that. And then it has a
• 48:49
  - bunch of, you know, supporting information in here
• 48:52
  - too. Like, its foundation, the benefits,
• 48:55
  - partners
• 48:56
  - that are in here as well. I'm sure
• 48:58
  - that you're still
• 48:59
  - building out the site or... But Hang on.
• 49:02
  - Let me, I'll just pull up a link
• 49:03
  - to that. Hang on one sec. Okay. I
• 49:05
  - can just find it for you. It's in
• 49:07
  - my email somewhere here.
• 49:09
  - So, yeah, I think it's
• 49:11
  - great, and I think that more creators
• 49:14
  - need to be involved in the
• 49:16
  - the guild. And
• 49:18
  - Oh, god. I'm just curious, you know, what
• 49:20
  - that process is and how that works and
• 49:23
  - what's involved with it. And then, obviously, the
• 49:26
  - SBA is kinda like the next one to
• 49:29
  - be able to
• 49:30
  - opt in and get listed in the in
• 49:33
  - the,
• 49:35
  - the SBA's website and maybe get access to
• 49:37
  - some resources there.
• 49:39
  - Yeah. So if you go to, if you
• 49:41
  - wanna pull it back up, it's under certifications.
• 49:43
  - So if you go to the Creators Guild
• 49:45
  - homepage,
• 49:46
  - there's a a benefits tab. And in that
• 49:48
  - tab, there's certifications.
• 49:50
  - In the benefits tab. Let's see. Let's go
• 49:52
  - in here. Okay. Right right here.
• 49:55
  - Okay.
• 49:56
  - Alright. So I've got them Certifications
• 49:58
  - right there.
• 49:59
  - Yeah. And so you click certifications
• 50:02
  - button there. Oh, down down here. Right. Yeah.
• 50:05
  - There we go. And there you go. SBA
• 50:07
  - one zero one. Got it. Oh, okay. Yep.
• 50:10
  - Okay. So you can apply...
• 50:13
  - So that takes you down the path of
• 50:15
  - getting connected to the SBA. Right? Yes. And
• 50:18
  - then the and then the one below that
• 50:20
  - is the guild. That That's... Yeah. Getting credits
• 50:24
  - in, in Mosaic so that you can, show
• 50:26
  - verified,
• 50:28
  - work,
• 50:28
  - and partners to any future partners that you're
• 50:31
  - in discussions with.
• 50:33
  - Oh, okay. And then there's a member's only
• 50:36
  - content in here. It looks like that gets
• 50:38
  - unlocked
• 50:40
  - once you get involved. Is there a
• 50:42
  - a a cost for membership at this point?
• 50:44
  - Is
• 50:45
  - Yes. So our affiliates are free. You know,
• 50:47
  - you sign up with your email,
• 50:49
  - and, you become an affiliate and, you get
• 50:51
  - our newsletter, get access to a bunch of
• 50:53
  - our resources.
• 50:54
  - And then our membership is $99 a year.
• 50:57
  - Oh, okay. Okay. Well, that's good to know.
• 50:59
  - Yeah. So
• 51:01
  - And, I believe that
• 51:03
  - I will just plug this, you know, my
• 51:05
  - my membership creator access network costs $49 a
• 51:09
  - year, and you get a year free of
• 51:11
  - CJA membership. So Okay. Pays for itself.
• 51:14
  - Sure. Sure. And I'm assuming that the SBA
• 51:17
  - is
• 51:18
  - probably a free registration
• 51:20
  - of sorts and Yes. I mean, that is
• 51:22
  - all basically...
• 51:24
  - You're not necessarily applying. You're not registering with
• 51:26
  - the SBA,
• 51:27
  - so much as, you know, if you want
• 51:29
  - a loan, you go to a bank that
• 51:30
  - offers an SBA loan,
• 51:32
  - and they just be able to backstop it.
• 51:34
  - The SBDCs,
• 51:35
  - those you find your local one and and
• 51:37
  - reach out to them, and there's, I mean,
• 51:39
  - there's more details in the course, but it's
• 51:41
  - basically what is available around you. But you're
• 51:43
  - not necessarily signing up for, like, an SBA
• 51:46
  - program per se. Yeah. Yeah. I just know
• 51:48
  - that there's SBA offices
• 51:50
  - here in Connecticut. And Yes. Those are the
• 51:52
  - SBA. Business person can go in and talk
• 51:56
  - to a counselor or whatever. It's usually And
• 51:58
  - creators now have access to that. Exactly. Yeah.
• 52:01
  - That that... Those are the small business development
• 52:03
  - centers. And so those are, I think, in
• 52:05
  - every state.
• 52:06
  - I could be wrong about that, but, are
• 52:08
  - are major metros.
• 52:10
  - And,
• 52:10
  - and creators now have access to those as
• 52:12
  - well. So all the details are on the
• 52:14
  - on the site there. So So what would
• 52:16
  - you say would be the advantage for a
• 52:17
  - creator
• 52:19
  - in actually getting involved in the SBA and
• 52:21
  - taking advantage of those resources? Is it the
• 52:23
  - counseling part of it? Is it the
• 52:25
  - the assistance
• 52:27
  - part of it,
• 52:28
  - you know, that takes them down the path
• 52:30
  - of getting more support?
• 52:31
  - I think every creator is different. Right? I
• 52:33
  - think,
• 52:34
  - if you
• 52:35
  - have never run a business before and and
• 52:37
  - Mhmm. You want Sure. Help and counseling on
• 52:40
  - how to do that, then I certainly think
• 52:41
  - that the small business development center mentorship is
• 52:44
  - hugely valuable. And then for some creators, it's
• 52:46
  - gonna be the access to capital if that's,
• 52:49
  - something they need in order to realize their
• 52:51
  - vision for their creator business. So every every
• 52:52
  - creator is gonna be different, but I think,
• 52:56
  - the beauty of this is that there are
• 52:57
  - now resources available to most every creator. Yeah.
• 53:00
  - It's great to see that,
• 53:03
  - that there are available resources now that maybe
• 53:06
  - weren't there before. And if there's
• 53:08
  - ways that, you know, a creator that has
• 53:10
  - a great idea and that seems to be
• 53:12
  - building a growing platform. And that that... That's
• 53:14
  - the other thing that is happening right now
• 53:16
  - too is that
• 53:17
  - AI is enabling people to build whole platforms
• 53:21
  - in
• 53:22
  - a individual business now. Right? So, I mean,
• 53:24
  - I know I'm I'm building, like, five different
• 53:26
  - websites that are complete platforms.
• 53:29
  - They're not just a web web page. There's...
• 53:33
  - It's all back end, you know, access and
• 53:36
  - business processes and all sorts of stuff that
• 53:38
  - AI can help you with now. So you
• 53:40
  - can build a real business now as a
• 53:42
  - single
• 53:43
  - business person. But you do you do need
• 53:46
  - to have some skills or some experience with
• 53:48
  - these tools to be able to make them
• 53:50
  - work. But
• 53:51
  - but... And that's just, you know, part of
• 53:54
  - being a creator. You know, that's exactly what
• 53:56
  - I'm going through, you know, being
• 53:58
  - a long time creator, but also building businesses
• 54:01
  - too
• 54:02
  - is,
• 54:04
  - it's not for the faint of heart either,
• 54:05
  - is it? Definitely definitely not. Definitely not. I
• 54:08
  - mean, that's why I think it's so important
• 54:09
  - that we are acknowledged for what we're doing.
• 54:11
  - Right? Like, everyone knows that it's hard to
• 54:13
  - be a small business owner.
• 54:15
  - Yeah. And there's this... And a creator on
• 54:17
  - top of that too. That's... Right. Well, I
• 54:19
  - I think there's this perception that being a
• 54:21
  - creator is easy. You just, you know, snap
• 54:23
  - a few pictures and Yeah. You just make
• 54:25
  - money. You just talk into a camera. Big
• 54:27
  - deal. Right? Yeah. Right. The reality is you're
• 54:29
  - running a small business. And, and it's as
• 54:31
  - hard as it is for anyone running a
• 54:33
  - small business. So I'm very happy that we've
• 54:35
  - been recognized for that. Yeah. I am too.
• 54:37
  - I'm excited to to explore it myself and
• 54:41
  - see what the opportunities might be. I get
• 54:42
  - approached by, you know, kinda like,
• 54:45
  - family office type of investment
• 54:47
  - companies and stuff all the time about, well,
• 54:51
  - you know, are you doing something that, you
• 54:52
  - know, you know, it's worth, you know, possibly
• 54:55
  - investing $5,000,000
• 54:57
  - in? And I'm like going, no, I'm not
• 54:58
  - quite at that level. And it's like, but
• 55:01
  - there's programs that are that span that whole
• 55:04
  - spectrum, right, of of where you are as
• 55:07
  - a creator and as a small business person
• 55:09
  - to boost you if you have a good
• 55:10
  - idea.
• 55:11
  - And you've you've created a legitimate business structure.
• 55:15
  - And I think that's also an important part
• 55:16
  - of this too,
• 55:18
  - is having that knowledge to know, you know,
• 55:21
  - when you need to create an LLC versus
• 55:23
  - an s corp or,
• 55:25
  - you know, a corporation
• 55:26
  - or what's your legal structure and what's your,
• 55:30
  - you know,
• 55:31
  - lots of lots of things to consider,
• 55:34
  - on this too and be able to track
• 55:36
  - your expenses and be able to file your
• 55:39
  - tax returns and be able to, you know,
• 55:41
  - do all the things that go into having
• 55:43
  - a business.
• 55:44
  - I think a lot of creators have been
• 55:45
  - skirting along for a long time not having
• 55:47
  - to do those things.
• 55:49
  - Yep. Yep. And probably many of them will
• 55:51
  - continue to, and that's okay. I think for
• 55:53
  - the ones who are thinking about building
• 55:56
  - a bigger and more serious business, they're gonna
• 55:58
  - have to learn all of that stuff. I
• 55:59
  - think the mentorship here will be helpful. Yeah.
• 56:02
  - And I think that's the nuance here too
• 56:04
  - is that if you're just getting started doing
• 56:06
  - some stuff, you know, you're creating some, you
• 56:08
  - know, some
• 56:10
  - shorts or whatever on your iPhone or on
• 56:13
  - your Android device, and you're just posting them
• 56:15
  - to Instagram or something like that. You're not
• 56:18
  - really in the creator business yet. And to
• 56:21
  - rush out and create a whole LLC corporation
• 56:24
  - or something like that, just because you're posting
• 56:26
  - to, to these platforms,
• 56:30
  - probably a little premature.
• 56:32
  - Yeah. So I don't want to encourage people
• 56:34
  - to go crazy on this. I think it's
• 56:37
  - more to do with,
• 56:38
  - when it looks like you are starting to
• 56:40
  - bring in,
• 56:42
  - some revenue. And there's certainly
• 56:44
  - no
• 56:45
  - issue with starting out as a sole proprietor
• 56:48
  - and start keeping track of your expenses. And
• 56:50
  - if you bring in a little bit of
• 56:52
  - income,
• 56:53
  - then you just report on your taxes and
• 56:55
  - it's taken care of. But once you start
• 56:57
  - moving into a, you know, a higher level
• 57:00
  - of income and things like that, it... And
• 57:02
  - it's also about risk mitigation, too. You know,
• 57:06
  - you start taking money. Sure.
• 57:08
  - Right. You start taking money from sponsors
• 57:11
  - and
• 57:12
  - investors and things like that. There's
• 57:14
  - liability that starts cropping up and having an
• 57:17
  - LLC the biggest reason for any creator to
• 57:19
  - have an LLC, especially even small ones is
• 57:22
  - just to protect themselves. Like, if you're making
• 57:24
  - any money at all, I think it's worth
• 57:25
  - having an LLC just to protect yourself from
• 57:28
  - any sort of legal liability because liability is
• 57:31
  - everywhere. Right? I'm not a lawyer. This is
• 57:33
  - not legal advice. Oh, good. You know?
• 57:36
  - But, you know, a sponsor could sue you,
• 57:38
  - or, like, you could be filming someone and
• 57:39
  - they fall down and they sue you. And,
• 57:41
  - you know, there's all kinds of things. And
• 57:43
  - if you don't have an LLC, they're gonna
• 57:45
  - come for your house, for your bank account,
• 57:47
  - for your Robinhood portfolio, etcetera. So having the
• 57:50
  - LLC and a business bank account provides, like,
• 57:52
  - a
• 57:53
  - a good firewall between your personal liability and
• 57:57
  - Yeah. Your business. Well, it doesn't mean that
• 57:59
  - you you can just go off and just
• 58:00
  - do whatever you wanna do. You still have
• 58:02
  - a responsible
• 58:03
  - business. Right? Just just because I've got this
• 58:05
  - LLC, it's protecting me from
• 58:07
  - anything that I might do. It... They can
• 58:10
  - actually They can pierce you. You. Exactly. They
• 58:12
  - can still see me. If you're if you're
• 58:14
  - bad enough, they definitely.
• 58:16
  - Yeah. Yeah. If it's negligence or fraud or
• 58:18
  - something like that, I don't think it protects
• 58:20
  - you from activities like that, but it's more
• 58:23
  - to do with, you know, just normal business
• 58:25
  - activities that, people can get into trouble with.
• 58:29
  - And
• 58:30
  - that's...
• 58:31
  - Now that's why it's really important that once
• 58:33
  - you start bringing in some significant revenue
• 58:36
  - on what you're doing, you probably need to
• 58:38
  - get registered pretty quick. But up to that
• 58:40
  - point, if you're not bringing in any income
• 58:42
  - and you're not really doing any services to
• 58:45
  - people that would put you in a potential
• 58:47
  - liability
• 58:48
  - situation,
• 58:49
  - then you probably don't have to register. But,
• 58:51
  - you know, I think that it's just being
• 58:53
  - responsible. Right. I think at the end of
• 58:55
  - the day. Right. Totally agree. So, yeah. So,
• 58:59
  - well, Avi, it was great to have you
• 59:00
  - on the,
• 59:01
  - on the new media show to talk about
• 59:03
  - this. So I think we've talked about where
• 59:06
  - to go. So
• 59:07
  - here's up on the screen again, it's the
• 59:10
  - creatorsguildofamerica.org
• 59:13
  - And go there too. And I'm sure if
• 59:15
  - you go to the SBA
• 59:17
  - website, they have some information up there. If
• 59:19
  - not, I'm sure you can go to that
• 59:21
  - new website,
• 59:23
  - that's out there, the government. Was it americadot,
• 59:26
  - AI or something like that?
• 59:29
  - I think the easiest thing to do is
• 59:30
  - creatorsbuildamerica.org.
• 59:31
  - And then you can go to the benefits
• 59:33
  - tab, certifications, and then there's an SBA one
• 59:35
  - zero one. Right. It's all linked from there.
• 59:38
  - Right? Yep. So Yep. Yeah. Okay. Well, that
• 59:40
  - that sounds
• 59:42
  - sounds terrific.
• 59:43
  - Abe was great, and I'll get more filled
• 59:45
  - in with Shiro when she's on in a
• 59:48
  - couple weeks,
• 59:49
  - on this too. So if there's any additional
• 59:51
  - news, I'm sure she can she can share
• 59:53
  - that with me. But Amazing. Thank you for
• 59:55
  - having me, Rob. This was great. And, congrats
• 59:58
  - on your success, and keep doing what you're
• 59:59
  - doing. Thank you. Well, thank you. And congrats
• 1:00:01
  - to you too, and keep doing everything that
• 1:00:03
  - you can do. And if I can be
• 1:00:04
  - of any help or assistance, I would I
• 1:00:06
  - would love to help on this because I
• 1:00:08
  - think it's important. So I love that, and
• 1:00:10
  - I may take you up on it. Okay.
• 1:00:12
  - Awesome. Alright.
• 1:00:13
  - Alright. Thank you. Oh, I think we got
• 1:00:16
  - maybe a couple of questions here. Let's see.
• 1:00:18
  - Oh, we do. Let's see.
• 1:00:20
  - Dave Canyon wrote here. Let let me see
• 1:00:23
  - if I can,
• 1:00:25
  - there's also
• 1:00:26
  - tax avoidance and not tax
• 1:00:29
  - evasion.
• 1:00:30
  - Oh, yeah. Right.
• 1:00:31
  - It's a huge difference,
• 1:00:33
  - and we all could use that tax avoidance.
• 1:00:37
  - Well, it's it's thinking ahead about what you're
• 1:00:39
  - doing to to some degree
• 1:00:42
  - can help avoid
• 1:00:44
  - taxes.
• 1:00:45
  - But, you know,
• 1:00:46
  - sometimes it's hard to avoid.
• 1:00:48
  - That's all I can say. So,
• 1:00:50
  - Dave,
• 1:00:52
  - thank you for the comment here. So we're
• 1:00:54
  - gonna call it a night tonight, and thank
• 1:00:56
  - you so much. If you wanna see more
• 1:00:58
  - of the new media show, go to newmediashow.com.
• 1:01:02
  - There's lots of archives. I've got 693
• 1:01:05
  - episodes in there and a lot of more
• 1:01:07
  - recent episodes that are covering
• 1:01:09
  - the the latest topics and the latest trends
• 1:01:11
  - in the
• 1:01:12
  - in the new media space. And that includes
• 1:01:14
  - podcasting and YouTube and other stuff too, being
• 1:01:17
  - a content creator. So good night, everybody.
• 1:01:20
  - Thanks, man. Thank you.