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148. Crossover Event with Grow In Grace Podcast · 4-Freedom Podcast

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I found my freedom in you. I found a toy I can't lose, and
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thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
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and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me.
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I found. Welcome to the Four freedom
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Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
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freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
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everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
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Seyfried and Brett Moore. Welcome back to the four freedom
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podcast. What an awesome time we have had
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in this short little miniseries of getting other podcast part of
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the network together and being able to interview and talk with
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them. We've got a great lineup today
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with growing grace and with the ladies, Shayna and Kristen, and
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it's going to be an awesome time talking with them over the role
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of women in the church and what that looks like.
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And so we hope you guys enjoy that here in just a little bit.
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But Brett man we are T minus less than 24 hours from being at
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Ringgold, Catoosa, some state there in East Ridge area on East
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Ridge Rd. at the New Hope church in Catoosa area, Ringgold area,
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Fort Oak, a Thorpe, wherever you want to call it, whatever you
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want to get, just whatever you need to do at this moment.
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Cancel all your plans, get on a vehicle, a bus, a train, a
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plane, whatever you can find and get yourself to Georgia For the
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For the Sake of the Gospel Part 3, Volume 3, Episode 3, whatever
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you want to call it, we're meeting for the third time for
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the third For the Sake of the Gospel Conference, and it's
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going to be better than you can ever imagine.
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We want you to be there. I want you to be there, and I
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want to hang out with you. I want to talk with you.
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I want to get dinner with you. I want to hang out.
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And it's going to be an awesome time, but it won't be awesome if
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you're not there. And so we want you to be there,
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Brett, man, we're, we're, we're coming into the to the long haul
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stretch. You're about to get in the
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vehicle, you're about to start driving.
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I'm about to start driving down there and it's going to be
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awesome matter what. What preparations have you been
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making to get ready for the conference?
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You know, they say that you know when you have movies and you
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have a three-part movie, a trilogy, that the third movie is
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the best. And so that's what we're looking
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for. This is the bookend of a trilogy
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of conferences, and it's going to be awesome, man.
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We leave first thing in the morning.
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Crack of dawn, We're packing up. We're heading that way.
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I've got we, we got to get this recorded because I've got so
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much stuff to do to prepare. I got to go to the bank.
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We got to change my oil. We've got to pack.
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We got to wash and dry clothes and just get everything ready
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because we're excited to go and get on the road and get to this.
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Got to leave, got to leave a little room in there for a
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Bucky's trip. You know, we got to stop by
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Bucky's, get some, get some Beaver Nuggets and some brisket
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sandwiches. And you know, so we, you know, a
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little, a little jerky for the road.
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So put some Bucky's time in there and pay homage to the
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great Beaver God and Lord. I apologize, that was wrong.
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Little high dialogue for you this morning.
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Brett, have you seen the, have you seen the picture of the lady
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that's outside the Bucky's there at the the Bucky statue?
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And she's bowing down to the statue.
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The golden statue says it's it's the new statue, that it was the
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statue that Aaron made when Moses came off of Mount Sinai,
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that it was Bucky's statue. Exactly, exactly.
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That's what that's what it's turning into, yeah.
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But but yeah, so hey there. There's this.
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I don't know if you've seen it, but there is this, these two
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guys on YouTube, their names are Josh and Ollie.
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And so their channel is called Jolly.
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And what they do is they're two Brits, but they react to stuff
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and they blew up overnight because they came over and they
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started reacting to stuff in America.
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Like the first time they tried Mississippi catfish, the first
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time they tried Texas BBQ, and the video that they did when
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they went to Bucky's just blew up.
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I mean, they're trying Beaver Nuggets and jerky and praline
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pecans. Of course they call them pecans
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and but there's really pecans, you know, for sane people.
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And so, so, yeah. So got, got got to get ready to
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make the Bucky stop, get all our ducks in the row.
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And then we're going after the conference.
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It's when I, I take my vacation. So then we're heading to
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Chattanooga, do some things, headed up to the Smoky Mountains
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and spend a little time, spent a little time up in the, the Great
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Smoky Mountains. And so we're we're definitely
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looking forward to it this year. It's gonna be great.
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Yep, Brad, I'm gonna have to look up that Channel and and
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watch the old Jolly there and I'm gonna have to see maybe they
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got something from Bucky's that I need to stop and get that that
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I haven't experienced. The Bucky nuts are fantastic.
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They got 2. They got two Bucky videos, 1
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video where they first went and they got all all cold stuff.
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They didn't get any hot stuff. And then a year later they went
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back to Bucky's and they got all food.
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They got the brisket sandwiches, they got the Philly cheese steak
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burrito. Did you know that they have a
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candle in Bucky's that smells like Beaver Nuggets?
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No, I did not so. I, I have candles in my office,
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I'm getting me a Beaver nugget candle when I go back to
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Bucky's. So my office will smell like
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Beaver Nuggets. But yeah, it's called Jolly and
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so yeah, check them out. Well, Brett, we're t -, 24 hours
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from being there in Georgia. If you're like me, I haven't
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even packed yet. I pack the day before I leave.
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And so tonight I'll, I'll get my suitcase out and we'll load
6:34
everything up. My wife's already got all the
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kids stuff rolled up, packed up, looking great in the suitcase.
6:40
My stuff's not even not even been touched yet.
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And she she hates it because literally it takes me like 3 1/2
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seconds to pack. I throw a couple of outfits in
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there, don't even care what I'm throwing in and we just go.
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And so I don't know how you are with that if if you pack or if
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your wife packs for you, but but.
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I'm a last minute Packer. Like I'll I pack myself but like
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I wait to the very last possible second to pack.
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It's just that's my just my nature.
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Leaving at 6:00 AM, you get up at 5, you throw some clothes in
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there and and you hit the road. Yeah.
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Yeah, so I might do it wrong like 30 seconds before I go to
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bed. I'll pack, you know that.
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But that's just how I am. And you know, Brett, for me,
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it's, it's not that everything else in my life I plan out like
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long term, like I've got things planned for next year, end of
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next year already on my calendar.
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But for something about packing, it's like it'll get there like.
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My thing is when I pack for vacation, I'm ready to go.
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Like I I need to leave. Yeah, So there's no sitting
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around. I don't want to keep looking at
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the suitcase full of all the stuff, No, yeah.
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Exactly. And I definitely don't want to
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go digging in it for stuff that I that I'm going to need.
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So I'll wait till the last possible second that's.
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Good, that's good. I love it.
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And so I hope you are not waiting till the last possible
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second to make your way to Georgia.
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I hope you've made plans to be down there and to be down there
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with us. So today we've got the growing
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grace, ladies. And so we're going to jump right
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into that episode. Hey.
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Hey can, can, can we make fun of them for not coming to the
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conference? Yeah, we're going to do.
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Yeah, absolutely. We're going to make fun of them
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the whole time. Point number one in our notes is
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RIP the lady's face off for not coming to the conference.
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So yeah, you'll see that in the in our show notes, So.
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Awesome. Can't wait.
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Hope you're going to be there and I hope you enjoy today's
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episode. What kind of shallow person you
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want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism
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or something? They're everywhere and I'm
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thinking to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with
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such a word. You're stupider now.
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Don't get flubbed up like us and all you flubbed up people, you
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come, we'll all flub up together.
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We are excited to have with us today the Growing Grace podcast,
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the ladies part of the network here and excited about having
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them come on and talk about a timely topic.
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A topic that I think is it's going to invoke some some good
9:20
friendly talking today. And we want to start out by just
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ripping the girls for not coming tomorrow to the conference for
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the for the sake of the Gospel conference.
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This is 2 years in a row, guys, this is 2 years you have missed
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and it may constitute taking you guys out of the network.
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I'm not sure I think. I think if they really, really
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cared, yeah, they would be there, yeah.
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Listen guys, they. Have a, we may have a quick
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business meeting while we're there and JC is going to
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moderate for the network and we're going to have a vote to
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see if we want you guys to be there or not.
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It's stuff. Come from.
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If it comes from a committee, it doesn't need a second SO.
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That's how I've learned that. There is no that's.
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Right. There is no condemnation for
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those who are in Christ. So yeah, I'm gonna need y'all to
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calm down a little bit. Love it.
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So we have we this is the second time we've done this crossover
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event and since we last got together and recorded, which was
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I think two years ago. I mean, I think is the last time
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we did a crossover. I think we did something for
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your show and I I just have never released it on our show
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about theology or something. But but things have changed,
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Kristen, you're, we can't see you because you're, you're,
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you're can't, your computer's messed up.
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But there's something happened big in your life since we last
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talked. I I went and got married.
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Oh my goodness, you got. Shanna finally, exactly Shanna
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finally got to release her single friend to marriage.
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Love it because we had met we'd met your fiance or it was a
11:03
boyfriend at the time, at the last meet up in in Virginia and
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we had had lunch with him, I think there and and he stayed.
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I mean, we didn't scare him off too much.
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No. And then it was only about a
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month later that we were out in Texas visiting Shanna for New
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Year's Eve, and we got engaged. And were you?
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Born in that event, Shanna. I was her husband, her husband.
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This is how he loves her so well because he could have like
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proposed to her anywhere and like the whole the way they got
11:35
here, like they had a flight and everything and I don't know what
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happened, but it was cancelled. And so they just jumped in a car
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and drove here. Wow.
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Yeah, it was determined. To make this happen.
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Right. It was when Southwest kind of
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had their like breakdown and that was the flights that we
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had. And so I don't remember which
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one of the Southwest issues, but yeah, it we hopped in a car for
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15 hours. I had an inkling that proposal
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was going to be happening and I knew Shanna wanted to be a part
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of it. And so I was like, oh, we kind
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of got to get down there. So yeah, we have to have a 15
12:10
hour car ride and went down there and spent a week and got
12:14
married in May and the following year and here we are about a
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year and a half in a marriage and it's great.
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Love it. If you can survive a 15 hour car
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ride with another human being, you can survive the rest of your
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life with them. That's that's pretty much what
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he said. That's that's the litmus jest.
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Yes when we out when right after me and my wife got married we
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drove to our to Idaho. It was a 24 hour drive, so it
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was 2 days. And then four years into the
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ministry there, we left and came to North Carolina with two kids.
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One was two and one was a newborn, two months old.
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And we did a 36 hour, 40 hour drive.
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We did it in three different days with a newborn and a 2 year
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old. So to say that we tested our
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marriage, we tested it really, really hard.
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And so I think if we can survive those things and you can survive
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a long drive like that, it definitely can can be a
13:09
foolproof. I think.
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I think it should be a standard thing before you get married, go
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on like a 1520 hour road trip with your foreseeable spouse and
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see how things are going to go. Man 15 hours for a marriage but
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the RFP man not? That's right, That's right.
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Not that in an order. So I know I do.
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I am really sad that I'm missing it.
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I hate I'm so far away. Like it's a long drive for me
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and then plane tickets are really expensive, so.
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That is unreal how much the plane tickets are.
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I know I just looked like last week and I was like, oh, would.
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You fly the love. Field the holidays or where?
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DFW. Yeah.
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Well love field. SW is typically pretty good.
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I've I've flown. My sister lives in McKinney.
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I was out there just a couple of weeks ago and you're so close.
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I know we were, we, we were there for like 36 hours.
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We we went from Arkansas to her house.
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So we couldn't. Yeah, but.
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Yeah. Well, Brett, why don't you
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introduce the topic today? We've or I'm sorry, Shannon,
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anything new in your life? We we've been.
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Oh, that's. OK, guys.
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We were all excited about Kristen getting married.
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We forgot to even talk about. You.
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Yeah, no new kids. Excuse me, ma'am.
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Excuse me ma'am. No new kids.
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It's an inside joke with us. She thinks she's funny.
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No, I'm just here being faithful, homeschooling my kids
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and serving in my church. And the Lord's been kind to give
14:37
me some like speaking opportunities, which is really
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fun with what we're talking about today.
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And so I just been able to spend a lot of time with the Lord and
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study. And I'm wondering like how you
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pastors? I have so many things that I'm
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studying for, like how do you I'm like, I don't even know my
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brain. I don't have ADD.
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Maybe I do actually honestly, because like there's lots of
15:02
tabs in my brains. I'm like, how do pastors do this
15:05
all the time? I actually had that conversation
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yesterday with a friend of mine. He's just took over as a student
15:12
pastor, not a student pastor, college pastor.
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He was asking me like what I'm going to be preaching on where
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I'm at and, and I'm a I've I've listened to a lot of oh,
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Kristen's back. She we can see her.
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Sorry. We, oh, she's gone.
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That's our ADD. We we can't focus.
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What was I saying? Oh, I listen to a lot of Mark
15:34
Dever and how he plans out his preaching calendar, different
15:38
things. And so I've taken some notes on
15:40
that. And so like I try to plan out a
15:42
couple of months where I'm going to be at.
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And so it really helps me, you know, not be so ADD and just
15:49
focus on where I'm at. So yeah, it's it's.
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What's in front of you that's. Helpful because and I've, I've
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heard this long time ago, you can plan out for the future, but
16:00
the necessity of the immediate will always take over.
16:04
You know, someone passes away, someone's in the hospital as a
16:07
pastor, like that's got to be, we've got to be there.
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And so what's going to come up on Sunday is going to get pushed
16:13
back further and further unless you have a plan ready.
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So that's sort of how my my mindset is.
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So my, my, my pastor growing up, of course, he was a topical
16:22
preacher, you know, but what he would do is every week he would
16:27
preach in a different part of the Bible.
16:30
Then he would jump around. And I tried that for a while.
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And it is the most stressful thing that I just, I just can't
16:37
do. So I just, I got to do the
16:38
series, I've got the plan, I've got to know where I'm going.
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And it takes so much stress off of it that you know that three,
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you know, 4-8 weeks out what passages you're going to preach
16:50
on, what you're going to, what you're going to study.
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It takes a lot of the pressure off of it, right?
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So we are talking today, right in segue there.
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We are talking today about the rise of feminism in the local
17:06
church. Our notes say Shia Logans.
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And then just, you know, just what were your thoughts on that?
17:13
Good, bad and different? And then we're going to talk
17:15
about the Baptist faith in message. 2000 had an update in
17:21
2023 at their annual gathering at the the Southern Baptist
17:25
Convention approved a change to that.
17:28
It expanded the language of that the roles were limited to men is
17:32
no longer just pastor, but they expanded that to pastor, elder
17:38
overseer and that we're going to cover that topic today.
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And then we've got some other questions that we're going to
17:44
let you answer. So let's start with the feminism
17:47
in the local church. What are your thoughts on that?
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Yeah. Easy softball question no.
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Thought on that. Yeah, I do.
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I think, you know, I can fall in two ditches, I think. 1:00 And
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also I can't see you, Kristen, so interrupt me.
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One, I think that you have women who haven't felt like they've
18:15
had a voice for a very long time and so they are fighting just
18:20
for a seat at the table. And then on the other hand, I do
18:25
think feminism has crept into the church.
18:28
I think a lot of feminism that we see in the church is because
18:34
women are influenced by culture outside of the church.
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And I think 9 times out of 10, it's because they don't have
18:40
spiritual mothers in the church that they can turn to, right?
18:43
I think I think the family of God is essentially motherless.
18:49
And so when you don't have like an embodied spiritual mother in
18:53
the church that you can go to, I do think people are going to,
18:56
they're going to look elsewhere. And sometimes it's virtual.
18:59
It's people that you don't even know that you see on the
19:01
Internet, which I think I would love to talk like dive into this
19:06
a little bit later deeper. But I think that's where we get
19:09
a lot of your your enough and live your truth and things like
19:13
that. It's because it makes them feel
19:14
good, right? And they don't have anyone in
19:17
the church speaking into them, which I think it's a larger
19:21
issue that that we'll get into. What do you think, Kristen?
19:27
Yeah, I one of the things that as we were thinking through this
19:32
topic, that it just kept coming up for me was how much of an
19:38
influence that feminism and or postmodern postmodernism had on
19:44
feminism and it exchanged. And, you know, the basis of
19:48
postmodernism for those that it might be a new term to you.
19:51
Essentially you're exchanging cold hard facts or truth for
19:58
warm fuzzy feelings, right? What is your truth?
20:01
What is it's more experiential versus established things.
20:06
And so it took. Scripture and our view of
20:10
Scripture as our ultimate authority, it becomes, you know,
20:14
again with feminism, there's a lot of authority language and
20:17
pushing back against authority, pushing back against submission.
20:21
And so that has definitely crept into the church.
20:25
And I think like Shanna said, it's we see it in culture and we
20:29
see that, you know, patriarchy is bad and we want to push
20:35
against that and everything is oppressive to women.
20:39
And just this narrative that we hear in culture.
20:42
And then we start trying to take that and fit it into, OK, well,
20:45
how do I see that in the church, right?
20:47
How am I seeing that oppression is happening to us as women in
20:50
the church? And I think like Shanna said,
20:52
there are there are two ditches for sure.
20:53
Like we don't want to say that women have zero seat at the
20:57
table that they can't, right? They just exist to produce
21:02
babies and to cook food and to like that is their only thing
21:06
that they can do, even within the church.
21:08
But then also we've got to deal with the authority aspect and
21:13
how God has established authority and submission and
21:16
those words that women just don't like to talk about because
21:20
they've been influenced by culture and told that those
21:23
things are bad. You know, before you take go
21:28
James, I do want to touch on what you said about the two
21:33
ditches because the other side of that is like, I love that,
21:37
you know, theology isn't just a boys club anymore.
21:41
So it's like we don't have, you know, the men's meetings go into
21:44
these deep theological issues. The women's meetings talk about,
21:48
you know, Good Wife stuff and things like that.
21:50
But what in this new journey that you ladies have been on do
21:58
you to talk to talk to me about how you love diving into the
22:02
theology aspect of it that you weren't allowed to before?
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How was that changed in in your life?
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Yeah, I think for me personally, it was through a series of
22:16
really hard life circumstances where I was kind of like, why
22:20
would the Lord give me this brain and like this hunger and
22:25
desire for him? And then I have to just kind of
22:28
just sit, just sit back in the pews, right.
22:32
And so it was like a lot of a lot of late night struggles for
22:35
me, Kristen. And I would say up to 2:00 to
22:36
3:00 AM Facetiming, trying to talk through a lot of these
22:39
things. And it was honestly, it was
22:41
reading through scripture and getting to the fact that I am
22:46
going to answer to God one day for how I know, love and trust
22:51
him, How I, I will not answer to God for how my pastor does, but
22:56
how I do. And it was like this, like this
23:00
invitation to like know him in a, in a deeper level.
23:07
And so honestly, we moved from Louisiana to Texas and which is
23:12
a whole thing in and of itself. And I, my church specifically, I
23:18
think that's a really good job of inviting women, like giving
23:21
us a seat at the table to learn theology among our brothers.
23:25
But I was determined I was not going to this church.
23:29
It was too big. I came from an independent
23:31
Baptist Church with tiny like, you know, little, like, I don't
23:36
know less than 100 people or everyone knew everyone.
23:38
And I was not going to this 3000 like people church.
23:42
And the Lord has a sense of humor.
23:44
And it was the best thing that I've ever done.
23:46
And so I think to answer your question, like I am super
23:51
passionate now about fighting to give women a seat at the table
23:58
to learn theology with our brothers.
24:03
Like, and I know Kristen, I'm not going to speak for you, but
24:06
I know that's something that we both just feel so incredibly
24:11
passionate about is because we like we'll see this a little
24:15
later in our talk, in our, in our notes, but Jesus invited
24:20
women in his ministry. And so why did that be any
24:25
different for us today? I want to touch on one thing you
24:30
had said that there hasn't been like a mother figure in the
24:34
church, in the oppressive where we came out of where we were at
24:40
in, in, in life and in independent fundamental Baptist.
24:44
But even where I'm at now, it's a Southern Baptist church.
24:48
There's no, no denying that. 171 years old coming up.
24:52
I mean, they've got a rich history.
24:55
You know, the, the church has been a staple in the community.
24:58
But when I first got here, we did a marriage conference and we
25:01
did a, we had 10 or 12 couples that signed up and came and it
25:06
was a great time. I had a speaker come in and just
25:09
talked and did like a mini one night to one day, a full day on
25:12
a Saturday and I asked some of our older ladies, some of our
25:16
widows, and then even some older couples.
25:19
I said, hey, I want you guys to come and this was my response.
25:23
The older widows said, my husband's not here, it's going
25:26
to be hard for me to come. And I understood that some of
25:29
them had recently lost their husband.
25:30
I said, I can understand by hearing some of these things
25:32
that's going to be a hurt. But then when I would ask like
25:35
the couples that have been married 30-40 fifty years, hey,
25:38
will you guys come? This is what they said to me.
25:41
If our marriage hasn't lasted, if my marriage isn't working
25:44
after 50 years, there's no conference.
25:46
So it's going to help my marriage out.
25:49
And I looked at him and I said, it's not that it's going to help
25:52
your marriage out, it's going to help my marriage last 50 years.
25:57
And it's almost like this, this attitude of in the Church of
26:01
I've got everything figured out, how am I going to come to some
26:04
conference or some event that's going to help me better?
26:07
And that's not what the church community is about.
26:10
It's not about helping us necessarily.
26:12
It's about helping the larger gathering.
26:13
It's about helping that other generation that's coming up
26:15
behind us. As you were speaking, Shana, my
26:19
mind went to Titus 2 very common passage.
26:22
But it says in the same way older women are to be reverent
26:25
in behavior, not slanderous, not slaves, excessive drinking.
26:27
They're to teach what is good that they may encourage the
26:30
younger women to love their husbands and to love their
26:33
children to be self controlled, pure workers at home, kind and
26:37
submission to their husband so that God's word would not be
26:40
slandered. Goes on to talk about men and
26:42
younger men as well. But it's this thought of we have
26:46
gotten away from the older women teaching the younger women.
26:50
And when we can get back to this idea of the older men disciple
26:55
in the younger men, the older women disciple in the younger
26:58
women using the, the life experience they have.
27:02
This is where the church begins to thrive.
27:05
What has happened in my mind is we haven't done that.
27:09
And so the, the women, the younger women who are wanting to
27:12
find something, they turn to a Beth Moore, some crazy liberal
27:16
because, well, they're, they're investing in me as a younger
27:19
woman. And then they get this ideology
27:22
of a you do you and you're empowered to do whatever you
27:25
want to do. And now all of a sudden we have
27:28
this whole generation of younger women coming up that because the
27:32
foundational faithful women in the church didn't invest in the
27:36
younger women, we see this rise in a in a, a very into the
27:41
other, like you said, the other ditch as well.
27:43
Right. And some people would take that
27:46
Titus 2 passage, right and say, well then women can only teach
27:52
how to love their husbands care for their children.
27:56
Like those things are so home making things how to homeschool
28:01
your children, right. There was that side of it that
28:04
would say, well, that's all the Bible says and we would push
28:07
back. And I believe that you know,
28:08
Scripture teaches that should be an outflowing of your theology,
28:13
right. You can't love your husband well
28:16
if your theology of God is messed up, right?
28:21
You're or you're going to do it trying in your own power and
28:25
burn out and end up, you know, potentially divorced or how are
28:30
you going to serve your children well if you aren't studying your
28:35
theology and having a good grasp and foundation?
28:38
So both of those go hand in hand, right?
28:41
Theology is not divorced from our everyday life and how that
28:46
plays out and we live it out. Yeah.
28:48
I would just like piggyback off of what both of you said.
28:52
This is something I've been really studying a lot lately.
28:57
And so I've come across, I'm not going to say who it is.
29:01
Maybe. Maybe I will in a little bit.
29:03
We'll see. But there's three quotes that
29:07
have been put out by self like professed Christian women, OK,
29:12
They've put out these books. And so if we're not having like
29:16
spiritual mothers in the church, you're going to have women who
29:20
are going to these type of women.
29:23
I'll just say it, Jim, Rachel Hollis.
29:25
I'll just say it. You're talking about Jim
29:26
Wilkins, right? No, I'm not.
29:31
No, no listeners. I did not say that but they said
29:37
like listen to these three quotes.
29:40
One says I am exactly enough how I am, 2 you deserve goodness.
29:47
And three, I studied the gospel and finally grasped the divine
29:52
knowledge that I am loved and worthy exactly as I am.
29:57
And man like that is wildly different from Scripture, right?
30:01
Like Genesis says that the intentions of man's heart are
30:04
evil from youth. Jeremiah says that our hearts
30:07
are desperately sick and deceitful.
30:10
And Roman says that there is no right.
30:12
Like there is no one righteous right if you're going to King
30:15
James, No, not one. And I love Ephesians 2, how it
30:19
says like you were dead in your trespasses and sin in which you
30:23
once walked, like following the course of this world, following
30:26
the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at
30:29
work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all
30:33
once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the
30:36
desires of our body. And we were nature by nature,
30:41
children of wrath like culture and and women are hearing this.
30:46
They keep saying, I'm enough. I mean, the Bible says man, no,
30:50
I'm a child of wrath, right? And the good news of the gospel
30:55
is that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.
30:58
And so the point is like Jesus is enough.
31:02
And it's recognizing who we are in Christ that's so important
31:05
because in a ever changing culture, the Word of God does
31:09
not reinvent himself and it doesn't change.
31:12
And we need spiritual mothers to disciple and to pour in to
31:20
women, to this next generation of women or we're going to see,
31:24
we're going to see more of this. Yeah, while you were saying that
31:28
and saying those quotes that you had mentioned it, my mind
31:32
immediately went to what Satan tempted Eve with in the garden.
31:38
Listen, as I as I read it, it's Genesis 3.
31:42
Of course, the serpent said to Eve, did God really say you
31:46
can't eat from the garden? He questioned Scripture and then
31:49
the woman made her statement and then he said, no, you will not
31:52
die. In fact, God knows that when you
31:55
eat this, your eyes will be open and you'll be like God knowing
31:58
good and evil. And the woman hearing these
32:00
things saw the tree was good and delightful to look at and desire
32:04
to obtain wisdom. So she took an 8.
32:07
I think oftentimes that's the the draw of of all of us is it's
32:11
not just women. We're not single, not women
32:13
specifically, but it's hey, did did that person really say that
32:17
you shouldn't touch that? Did did that person really say
32:20
that you shouldn't go to that location?
32:22
You know, they're really just holding something back from you.
32:25
You know, go and and experience life.
32:27
Go and figure out what is good. Go and experience what is going
32:30
to make you happy. And all of a sudden we get to
32:34
the end of it. And it's it's like the devil
32:36
Michael Knowles said it like this.
32:37
He was quoting, I think it was Pleiades or, or someone he said
32:42
the devil on one side is saying go and do this.
32:45
There's no consequences whatsoever.
32:48
And once you go and do it, the same devil says, ha, I've got
32:52
you, no one's going to love you now.
32:55
And it's like, oh, man, what did I just do?
32:56
Like, I feel guilty. Yeah, you better feel guilty
32:59
because now look at what? No one's going to love you now.
33:02
And it's it's this struggle that we deal with in our life on a
33:05
daily basis of good, evil, right, wrong, and this constant
33:11
struggle. I think that we have gone back
33:15
to the two ditches again. I think we've gone from fighting
33:18
for a seat at the table. It's you sometimes imitating Eve
33:22
by eating the apple, you know? And so I think there's wisdom
33:26
and discernment that you have to have someone speaking into you,
33:30
right? And so, and that's a culture,
33:33
that's a church culture thing. And I think a lot of that is by
33:36
not giving women leadership abilities in the church, right?
33:41
Like, I know we're going to kind of get in that too a little bit,
33:45
but I think by some, when we invite women to have a seat at
33:50
the table, we're opening up all kinds of possibilities for
33:53
brotherly, sisterly, motherly, fatherly modeling in the church,
33:57
which is really significant and healthy.
34:00
And that's how a church is going to thrive.
34:04
Yeah. I think one of the things that,
34:06
as you all were talking through that that I was thinking is that
34:11
cultural feminism, we're going to call that right outside of
34:15
the church, encourages women to really grab all they can and
34:23
measure their worth by how much they can control their own
34:26
autonomy, right? Their own, like I control
34:29
myself. But in contrast, as Christians,
34:34
we're called to depend on God and not ourselves, right?
34:36
That's not where our autonomy it should not be an autonomy of I
34:41
can control myself. I can I am exactly enough.
34:44
I am you know, all of this I I but true freedom is found in
34:49
Christ. And so I think again, when
34:52
feminism in the church is evolving into a lot of different
34:56
manifestations and a lot of it is bucking that submission,
34:59
bucking that authority. It's that you know what happened
35:02
in the garden, right, That when the curse came down against Eve,
35:08
it was that you will want to take the position of your
35:11
husband, right? You are going to want that
35:13
authority. That is going to be your
35:15
struggle. And we see it playing out.
35:17
And then we're all just like, wait, what?
35:19
How, how is this? Well, we were told from the
35:21
beginning that this is how it was going to play out, that this
35:23
was going to be a significant struggle for women.
35:26
And it's a struggle for both Shanna and I as well, right?
35:29
Like we're always on guard on it so.
35:32
My husband is not invited to this conversation for a reason.
35:36
I love it. Neither of ours.
35:38
I think, I think often for those who come out of the independent
35:41
fundamental Baptist movement and other oppressive movements, and
35:45
I've seen it in all of my years of 13 years been in ministry,
35:49
I've been somewhat of a balanced guy.
35:51
Most guys have have told me, you know, even in college, even when
35:54
there was a lot of legalism, like you just didn't buy into
35:57
everything. But I think often times, and
36:00
you'll see this if you look at any Joe Schmo that that comes
36:03
out of that is they see the oppression of the IFB and then
36:07
the pendulum swings to the whole if they did this and this was
36:12
what they said is right and I see that it's wrong.
36:15
I've got to swing that pendulum all the way to the other side
36:18
and do everything opposite. And I think this is what happens
36:22
in what we call feminism, of the rise of cultural feminism is
36:26
they said, well, women were oppressed, women were only
36:29
homemakers, women were only these things.
36:31
They had no voice, they had no say.
36:33
And so if that was right, and I know it's wrong now, then the
36:37
only logical thing is it's got to be the total opposite of
36:39
that. And the pendulum swings from law
36:43
to grace and I'm going to do whatever I want.
36:44
And there's no marrying of the middle of, OK, maybe there was
36:48
some truth, maybe there was some things, maybe there was a little
36:50
over oppression. But how can we bring this into a
36:53
balanced view of Scripture? And how can scripture give me
36:56
the the grace and truth that I need to marry both of these
37:00
together? Right.
37:02
It's throwing, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater and
37:05
it's oh, it's, it's, it's, it's over correcting.
37:08
And so we definitely need to be aware of that.
37:11
And we're and we're doing it on a basis of fallen men, right?
37:16
Making, you know, I'm not going to say make mistakes, but like
37:19
they twist and the Scriptures to serve their own purpose, right.
37:24
And so then we say, oh, well, because they did that and I was
37:27
a part of this movement or whatever it is.
37:31
They twisted that scripture, like you said, Well, then it
37:34
must be the complete opposite. Rather than looking and saying,
37:36
OK, what is Scripture actually saying in this?
37:39
Some of it is going to be some of those difficult, you know,
37:44
things that we don't like I've said many Times Now, submission
37:47
authority. I think that's just a sticking
37:49
point for women, especially women in the church.
37:52
But then how does that play out? It doesn't it isn't you know,
37:56
your husbands or your pastors lording that over you.
38:00
That's that's equally as sinful if you're in that situation,
38:03
right? Your husband or your your pastor
38:06
lording that power and authority over you in an unloving way is
38:12
equally as sinful as you trying to buck against that submission
38:15
and authority. But that doesn't mean that what
38:19
the prescription that God has given in Scripture is wrong.
38:23
It's just being used in a wrong fashion.
38:26
Yeah. And I think often times we
38:28
attribute sinful men, sinful behavior to God, right?
38:34
Like we throw that on him. And I think we see that a lot as
38:39
people who are coming out of these oppressive movements.
38:43
Their view of God is, is, is wrong.
38:45
And so that's that's when we started growing Gray.
38:47
Our very first season was the attributes of God, because you
38:51
have to right view of God before you have a right view of
38:53
anything else. And I think honestly, Kristen,
38:56
we've done some really, we've had some really great guests and
38:58
we've done some really great episodes, but that's still my
39:00
favorite. That's still my favorite.
39:01
It's going back to God's character, like this is who he
39:05
is in Scripture, and I think we have to start there.
39:10
Absolutely. Yeah.
39:13
Tangent, no, those are those are great episodes.
39:15
I I've thoroughly enjoyed all of that that y'all did and if you
39:18
haven't listened to it, go to their show and listen to it.
39:21
We have a dog somewhere. Yeah, that's my dog.
39:25
I thought maybe I had a dog moths just now.
39:29
All right, let's jump through. And this may not be a long talk,
39:32
but Baptist Faith The Message 2000 was updated two years ago
39:36
at the annual meeting. Christian, I think you're
39:38
Southern Baptist church. I'm not sure if you are or not.
39:41
Yes. OK, so we're all Southern
39:42
Baptist churches and since 2000, the Baptist Faith and Master
39:46
served as a guide to sort of help us as churches that are of
39:50
like faith and practice. Some didn't believe that the
39:53
constitution of change was actually necessary, that this
39:56
document actually already outlined that women were not to
39:58
serve in these roles. And So what they decided was
40:01
let's someone made a motion to amend it, and the motion was
40:06
that the New Testament Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is
40:08
autonomous local gatherings. A baptized believers associated
40:11
with a covenant of faith. They exercise their rights and
40:14
gifts and privileges by them. They're all autonomous.
40:17
Each congregation operates under the worship of Christ.
40:20
And then the the second clause was just two scriptural office
40:24
Scriptural offices or that pastors and deacons is how it's
40:28
stated. And we added pastors, elders and
40:31
overseers and deacons. While both men and women are
40:34
gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor,
40:38
elder and overseer is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
40:42
The New Testament speaks also of the church as the body of
40:45
Christ, which include all redeemed of all ages, believers
40:49
from every tribe, tongue and people in every nation.
40:51
And so that was passed. The Baptister of the Message has
40:53
been updated to add the elder overseer as qualified and
40:57
limited to men qualified by Scripture.
41:00
And so the thoughts are is some were upset at this and some
41:03
were, you know, we're leaving the convention.
41:05
We can't be a part of this. It's an oppressive movement.
41:08
Some are like, yeah, this is a good thing.
41:10
We need to have this. We need to be able to, you know,
41:12
say, hey, this is what we believe as Southern Baptist.
41:16
And So what do you think? Does this help or does this hurt
41:19
or how? What are y'all thoughts on this
41:22
amendment to the Baptist faith message?
41:24
Yeah. You want to go, Kristen?
41:26
Or you want me to go? I can't see you.
41:28
Sure. I can we'll probably both talk
41:30
on this topic. I think it helped from what I
41:35
could gather. Again, I wasn't because I let my
41:40
pastors kind of take care of all of that.
41:42
I wasn't super. Being a good submissive woman,
41:45
that makes sense. Exactly.
41:47
What's even funnier is that my pastor is my brother.
41:50
I go to my brother's church. So from what I understand, and
41:57
one of the things that kind of started bubbling this up was the
42:01
belief that women could be have the title of pastor, but not the
42:08
office of like elder, overseer and that kind of stuff.
42:11
They were trying to divorce the two, right?
42:13
So then you could have a children's pastor or a women's
42:17
pastor and oh, they don't have, you know, it's just a title,
42:21
right? That's what they were going for
42:22
is it's just a title. And so being able to connect
42:26
those as like, no, a pastor is an elder is an overseer, right?
42:30
Those are connected. It helped be able to clear up, I
42:37
think a line that was trying to be muddied very quick.
42:40
And I, I, I think that it was a lot of maybe it was reactionary,
42:45
but also a bit of a foresight of if we don't get a handle on this
42:49
now, we're going to go even farther down.
42:53
Because the more you start to muddy a line, the less you can
42:56
see that line. And then now that line starts
42:58
getting drawn in all different places.
43:02
Yeah, I think, you know, I would say I'm a complimentarian, but I
43:09
do think there are different. Lots of people coming say
43:14
they're complimentarian, but they don't mean the same thing,
43:16
right. There's like various facets of
43:18
that. And so you can go to one church
43:22
and they're going like, hey, I was talking to Jim Wilkin, for
43:25
example, and she was like, you know, I can go to one church and
43:27
they're like, hey, I want you to preach this week, like the whole
43:30
weekend services, which she will not do.
43:32
And then she can go to another church and they're like, you
43:35
like women are not even going to give the announcements here.
43:38
And both churches would say that they're complementarian, but
43:42
that's wildly different in practice, right?
43:45
And so I, I think like, I mean, I use the ESD, but in First
43:49
Timothy 3, they use the term overseer.
43:55
I think it's helpful to give clear definition of Hey pastor,
44:01
elder, overseer is reserved for men.
44:07
We can talk about deacons if we want to, but I I was not
44:12
offended and I did not find it oppressive personally.
44:16
Yeah, like, well, go ahead bro. I was like, you know, if you
44:19
have like a woman doing, she's the children's director, she's
44:24
over the children's ministries. And then we say, OK, what we're
44:28
going to do is we're just going to give her the title, Pastor.
44:32
She's going to do the same thing that she's always done.
44:36
Nothing's going to change. We're just going to give her
44:39
this title. We're going to change the name.
44:42
But nothing she does is going to be any different than what she
44:46
did before. And those, some of the the
44:49
churches that did that, we're like, OK, we don't see anything
44:52
wrong with that. But then when you come back to
44:55
that, that name, pastor, I look at it as as a rank, you're
44:59
bestowing a rank on someone that the Bible defines for us who
45:06
qualifies to hold that, that title.
45:10
Now, the thing about my, my opinion on this change is, you
45:15
know, I, I think that it, it did have sufficient language, but
45:18
I'm all for, as you said, making sure that the waters don't get
45:23
muddied. You know, I'm, I'm not ashamed.
45:26
I'm just like you guys. I'm not ashamed of the language
45:28
of the Bible. You know, I'm, I'm not ashamed
45:30
that the Bible uses this type of language.
45:34
I don't think there's anything wrong with clearly defining
45:38
something. I mean, we've seen these other
45:40
these other denominations and like just completely destroy
45:45
the, the language of the Bible and know those word, you know, I
45:48
know that word meant what it meant to for 2000 years.
45:52
But today in our culture, that word doesn't mean that anymore.
45:54
And so we see these other denominations throwing the
45:57
language of the Bible away and just getting real specific.
46:02
I don't, I agree with y'all. I don't think that it's, it's,
46:06
it's hurtful. I think it can only be helpful.
46:09
Was it necessary? That's debatable, but then
46:12
again, I'm not ashamed of the language of the Bible.
46:14
So. Well, and you know Moeller, who
46:17
was the Archer, one of the architects of the battle, Smith
46:20
Master 2000, when this amendment came up, he was against it.
46:24
In 2023. He thought that it was
46:27
sufficient enough. It was already said it was
46:29
limited to men as qualified by scripture.
46:31
We don't need to add elder overseer to it at all.
46:34
It passed and then the next year he changed his stance.
46:37
He said, you know, men, I've seen the convention, I've seen
46:41
what happened to the United Methodists.
46:43
I've seen what's going on in the world.
46:46
And I think we need to go even farther.
46:48
We need to, we need to clearly put our flag in the ground and
46:51
say this is where we're at. And I think that's a good thing
46:54
to do at times, especially like Brett said, with the way
46:57
language changes, words mean things.
47:00
And what the, the problem was, is people were trying to
47:04
separate and divorce the office from the function.
47:07
And they were trying to say, well, they're, they have the
47:08
function, but they don't necessarily hold the office and
47:11
you can't divorce the two the office and the function, same
47:14
thing. And so as we continue on, I
47:17
didn't think that was going to be a long discussion.
47:19
Anyways, we wrote down just a couple of questions.
47:22
Brett, I want to specifically get to A&D on our, on our
47:26
questions. If we have time, we'll hit B&C,
47:29
but I'll ask the first one and you can ask the second one and
47:31
see where time is at. The first question that we had
47:35
written down is do you believe, because there is this stance of
47:39
women teaching and women doing things, do you believe a woman
47:41
can teach a man under any circumstances?
47:45
Are there biblical grounds for a woman to get up and to teach an
47:48
audience and men be in there? What is your thought on that?
47:56
Who? Wants to throw the dart first.
47:58
Go, Kristen. I'm sitting here waiting for you
48:01
Santa. I'm like running for my Rolodex.
48:06
Oh, of course she is. Yeah.
48:08
So I will tell you my stance on this.
48:11
I think that mixed gender teaching environments should
48:16
always be overseen by elders. I think the elders should seek
48:22
out and equip and utilize gifted people to help lead and teach
48:29
whatever ministries are in your church.
48:33
I know the way we do it at our church and I found that very
48:35
helpful. Is like a gender specific
48:37
teaching environments will be taught by the same gender.
48:39
So men Bible studies will be taught by a man.
48:42
The women's Bible studies will be taught by a woman.
48:44
And any time that there is mixed gender environments, it's always
48:49
overseen by an elder because I mean, I go to an elderly church
48:53
and I have found that to be very helpful.
48:57
I don't know. You know, we have what we call
48:59
our Church of training program, which if you listen to Girl and
49:01
Grace, I talked about it a lot. And Jen Wilkin has been a guest
49:08
lecturer a couple times in there.
49:10
And those are some of my husband's favorite that he sat
49:13
under and he like, we still talk about them.
49:17
And but it was overseeing, it was overseeing, it was over led
49:21
by and by and elder. And so that's kind of where I I
49:25
land is the authority that the church has pastor elder, are
49:31
they overseeing it? And so I don't know.
49:35
I think there's a lot of nuance there.
49:37
I personally don't have a problem with it because I think
49:41
we do theology together, but I know some people will.
49:44
And I think there's theological triage that can happen there as
49:48
well. Kristen, what do you think?
49:50
Yeah, I, I pretty much fall in line with that.
49:54
I would in what you were saying as no.
49:57
Tell us where you don't like. Where do?
50:01
You go well, because I just think it plays out differently
50:06
in a church like the village that has something like the
50:09
training program that gives maybe some of these gifted women
50:13
the opportunity to be able to speak not only to women but to
50:15
men. But in smaller churches, you're
50:17
not going to have probably those opportunities necessarily.
50:21
So that's always what I'm asking.
50:22
Like when we talk about this, well, what are we talking about
50:26
it practically Like, what are you wanting, you know, a woman
50:30
to get up and preach on a Sunday morning?
50:32
Yeah, probably not like, no. Right.
50:36
I'll give you a practical scenario.
50:37
So at my former church run about 202 two 10220 on a really good
50:42
day, they had a pastor's wife or not a pastor, a pastor's
50:48
daughter, that she was a great theologian, probably one of the
50:52
best teachers in the church period.
50:55
And one of the guys had gotten sick and they asked her to help
50:58
teach the class years and years ago before I ever got there.
51:01
Well, the class enjoyed her teaching.
51:03
And so when he got better, they kept her as teaching and I sort
51:07
of alternated back and forth teaching the class.
51:11
And we had some men in the church that never attend that
51:14
class anymore. But on the weeks that she would
51:16
teach, because she got up and she was teaching the Scripture,
51:20
the church okayed it, the the pastors okayed it, the deacons
51:23
okayed it. There was no problem with it.
51:26
There were deacons in that class and she talked.
51:29
And yet men had got upset because a woman was teaching
51:32
over them. And they took the verse out of
51:34
first Corinthians permit not a woman to teach over a man or to
51:37
speak of a man. And they took that verse and
51:39
said that she doesn't have the right to speak.
51:41
And so they didn't go on the weeks that she talked.
51:43
And so that would be the practical circumstance that you
51:45
could say, OK, this is a situation, is it right?
51:49
Is it wrong? Where do you land on that
51:51
situation? Is it man?
51:53
Right. I think, you know, I, I, I don't
51:57
see necessarily a problem with that.
52:02
Is it wise? I, I don't know.
52:04
That would be the question, right?
52:06
It might not necessarily be a, you know, right or wrong
52:10
necessarily, but is it wise like, and, and you can come from
52:14
it from both sides, right, Giving her the opportunity to
52:17
continue to develop her teaching and to teach and sounds like a
52:21
really great teacher and a really great theologian, solid
52:24
theologian, right, That the, you know, were was still overseen,
52:29
assuming they were also still overseeing as well when the man
52:32
was teaching, right, That we didn't have a couple double
52:34
standards of like, oh, we need to make sure the woman's on
52:36
track. Oh, but he's a man.
52:38
It doesn't matter. Like what he says, he's fine,
52:40
right. But then also there's that
52:43
aspect of is it a stumbling block for people?
52:47
Why, right. So they're, there are some
52:50
people clearly that, you know, didn't attend anymore on those
52:53
Sundays. So which one is wiser to
52:58
alienate some of these people that just will not or maybe
53:02
figure out develop other ways for that woman to be able to
53:06
teach in some form or capacity, maybe just not in this specific
53:12
instance, right. Thankfully, I'm not a pastor and
53:17
I can't be a pastor. So I don't have to make those
53:18
decisions. I just, I'm like, yes, what
53:24
Kristen said, but also like, what a beautiful opportunity for
53:28
the church to see what it looks like for brothers and sisters to
53:30
do theology together. Like if they both are
53:34
alternating and they're both teaching, you're getting both
53:38
voices. And I think I think that's
53:39
beautiful. Listeners don't come at me, but
53:43
here I stand. Here I stand.
53:45
That's right. Well, and it's, it's a tough
53:48
thing because I mean, you would talk to people even in, in my
53:52
small little town where I live at, I mean it, we have like 4000
53:55
people in our town. It's really, really small.
53:58
And I, my kids play wreck ball. So I'm constantly talking to
54:01
people. They know I'm a pastor, you
54:03
know, we, we talk and, and I was talking to a lady and she said
54:07
she was in the church and she was helping and she was
54:10
volunteering. Her husband was a police
54:12
officer. They hadn't enjoyed it wasn't
54:13
independent on the mountain Baptist.
54:15
She did not know all of the the background of it.
54:18
She was just telling me. She said, my husband's a police
54:20
officer. So he's there over the week.
54:22
And we were started to go on and you know, I'm teaching and I'm
54:24
helping with the youth and I'm doing all these things.
54:27
And then someone found out that I had been divorced and I was
54:32
we, we were remarried and all these kids were not all of his
54:35
kids. And you know, but they were OK
54:37
with all that before they found out about it.
54:39
Once they found out about it, they pulled me aside and said
54:42
from now on you were only allowed to be in the nursery.
54:46
You can't teach anyone else because you have been in wrong,
54:49
you've been in sin and you've done these things.
54:51
And so we want you to help in the nursery, but that's the only
54:54
place you can help out it. And she was like, I don't even
54:58
like, is this like she's confused because she said, I
55:02
love the church, I think it's great.
55:03
But all of a sudden they find out one wrong thing about me.
55:05
They were OK with it one minute and now they're not.
55:08
And so it was a fun little conversation that we had.
55:11
And they're, they no longer go to that church, Thank the Lord.
55:14
They, they left because of some crazy things that were going on.
55:19
But she, she in that moment was like, where's the double
55:22
standard at? Why is it OK in one moment?
55:25
Yeah. They wouldn't let me teach an
55:26
adult class, but teenagers and young people and young girls,
55:30
like if we have a split class, I'll talk to them.
55:32
Like those are great things. But then all of a sudden one bad
55:35
thing happens and or they find out about something and they're
55:37
like, Nope, Nope, you, you can't do it anymore.
55:40
So I think that's the, that's the double standard that that
55:43
happens often times in, in churches, especially smaller
55:46
churches. But, but I guess it can happen.
55:49
I've never been a part of a 3000 member church.
55:52
So I don't know. You know, not all of us are big
55:55
time, you know, big celebrity pastors like Shana.
55:58
So he's Co writing a book with Jen or something, I don't know.
56:03
No, no. You heard it here first, Yeah.
56:06
No, this is how rumors get started.
56:10
Yeah, no, Shanna is not. Let's go into our next question
56:16
and maybe maybe this question is already asked and answered and
56:19
maybe it it, it piggybacks off of the last question that we
56:24
had. But the question we have on our
56:26
notes is do you believe that women can be preachers?
56:29
And maybe think about it in the context of not a pastor, OK, Can
56:34
a woman be just be a traveling preacher and not necessarily the
56:39
pastor of a church or in a local church for that matter?
56:42
And the question is simply, do you believe women can be
56:45
preachers? I love I'm like I have thoughts
56:52
on this first, but like what do can we define?
56:56
And I would love to hear maybe y'all as well the difference in
57:00
a teacher and a preacher. Like if you're traveling and
57:02
you're getting up speaking, like what is the difference between a
57:05
teacher and a preacher? This is me thinking out loud,
57:08
like truly, if because for, for me, I've I've listened to
57:13
whether it's like you'll never hear Jen Wilkins say she went
57:16
and preached somewhere. That's not the language that she
57:18
uses. But if you listen to like Jackie
57:21
Hill Perry, like she's like, I preached this weekend here, you
57:25
know what I mean? And so I'm like, I'm curious,
57:27
like what's the depth? Like what Kristen, do you, what
57:30
do you think? Is there a definite like a?
57:31
How do you define? I've always heard the difference
57:35
is the authority aspect of it right?
57:39
Teaching. And it still hasn't been super
57:42
clear on that. But preaching denotes some type
57:45
of authority and what you're delivering versus teaching tends
57:50
to not be not not have as much on that authority aspect.
57:58
But that's how I've heard it explained.
58:01
I don't know if that's I get, I get that aspect, but I'm I also
58:08
see holes in it. So I don't know.
58:11
James and Brett maybe. Yeah, I have you all.
58:13
I do want to. I do want to come back to this
58:16
within regards to the local church because I have thoughts
58:19
on that, but I would like brothers, what do you think?
58:22
Let's do theology together. What do you?
58:24
What are the difference? Brett, you have a thought of you
58:26
going to go first? You go first.
58:28
I figured you'd say that. All right, so I've been reading
58:32
through the book of Acts because I'm, I'm planning to preach
58:34
through the book of Acts next year.
58:37
Peter gets up and he preached the word the the first sermon
58:42
that we get in Acts and he preaches and it only says the
58:45
disciples were with him preaching.
58:47
I think that is an example of public speaking in a way that is
58:52
proclaiming the gospel in a organized forum that is for the
58:59
purpose of preaching and proclaiming the gospel.
59:02
Not that women can't do that one-on-one, but it was an
59:05
example of Peter getting up and proclaiming the word of God and
59:10
and going through the Old Testament, going through the New
59:12
Testament, going up to Jesus and leading that up.
59:15
You Fast forward to Acts 1314 where Paul begins to Bible
59:21
doesn't say he preached. He said he went and he taught at
59:25
the synagogue and he was teaching there at the in Mars
59:30
Hill to the unknown God. He wasn't a preaching in that
59:34
sense, even though you can take the aspect of preaching and say,
59:37
oh, he was preaching since he got up and he taught them their
59:41
ways. He said, I'm going to teach you
59:43
about someone, the unknown God. And so there the aspect was one
59:49
is preaching in the sense of, and I know there's semantics in
59:54
this, but but preaching for the proclamation of the gospel
59:57
versus teaching to expound to to give someone this wisdom.
1:00:02
And so we are all called to be teachers and to be Proclaimers
1:00:05
of the gospel. But this preaching aspect is a
1:00:09
different offices. If one claims or has the gifting
1:00:14
to be a pastor or a preacher or be an overseer, it is the.
1:00:18
The, it's more than just preaching on Sunday.
1:00:21
And I know oftentimes we only work one day a week, right?
1:00:24
Sunday and Wednesday, Sunday, if you don't have Wednesday night,
1:00:27
you're one day a week. So I think it goes a little
1:00:30
deeper than that because it is the shepherding of, of one soul.
1:00:35
It is the, the weight of, yeah, I'm going to get up and preach.
1:00:38
I'm going to preach what the church needs, but it's also
1:00:42
carrying that weight of what's going on all throughout the week
1:00:45
is what a preacher and a pastor is.
1:00:49
So I don't know, I probably butchered that.
1:00:51
But Brett, what's, what's your thoughts on that or, or how?
1:00:53
Wrong was I? I agree with you.
1:00:56
I mean, just for me, for me, just personally, I've got 2
1:01:00
modes that I go into when I speak at my church and it's,
1:01:04
it's preaching and it's teaching, teaching on preaching.
1:01:12
But you know, so when I'm teaching, I, I open up the
1:01:15
floor. I, I want to, I'm the kind of
1:01:19
teacher that I want people to respond.
1:01:22
I'm going to write down questions and I'm going to ask,
1:01:24
I want feedback when I teach. And, but you know, when I
1:01:29
preach, you know, I kind of, I think it's the authority.
1:01:32
I think you have an authority when it comes to proclaiming the
1:01:36
gospel in that way. People don't speak, speak back.
1:01:40
They're just listen to me talk and things like that.
1:01:43
So I know that's not really, you know, dead diving biblically,
1:01:46
that's just practically from my own experience.
1:01:49
But I, I do think that preaching connotates a, a, an authority
1:01:56
you come at it from, you know, the aspect of being a pastor in,
1:02:02
in some regard, whether it's a lead pastor or, you know, some
1:02:06
other pastor, elder overseer. I don't personally think you can
1:02:10
divorce the two. I think even outside the church,
1:02:13
when you're preaching, you come at it from the authority of
1:02:16
being an elder pastor, overseer. Personally, that's my personal
1:02:21
opinion on it. Yeah, I think my my strong my
1:02:28
strong opinion on this is dealt more, I think with the local
1:02:32
church. And I think when we're talking
1:02:35
about this, we talk we talk so much about like the differences,
1:02:39
right? Like roles really.
1:02:42
But I think it's really helpful to start like where Scripture
1:02:45
does. And so like we see in the very
1:02:48
like opening pages, like in Genesis 2, Adam is like shown
1:02:52
this parade of animals that go in front of him, right?
1:02:54
Each has been created according to its kind.
1:02:58
And he looks at them. And every time an animal goes
1:03:00
by, he's like, I think like he's naming them.
1:03:03
He's like basically categorizing them.
1:03:05
He's like, this one's not like me, this one's not like me.
1:03:08
And he gets to Eve, right? And when Eve is created, he
1:03:12
seems like this hymn of praise, like the sameness, bone of my
1:03:15
bone, flesh of my flesh. And so I think if we don't start
1:03:20
with what we share, like sameness, I think that we have a
1:03:24
tendency to focus on difference the most.
1:03:28
And I think when you focus on difference, you're always going
1:03:31
to push people away. You're always going to isolate
1:03:33
people. And so I think from the opening
1:03:34
pages of Scripture, we find that God created 2 complementary
1:03:38
sexes for our good and his glory.
1:03:41
And both are created in God's image, men and women.
1:03:45
And I think we share more in common as divine image bearers
1:03:49
than differences. I think we were created to Co Co
1:03:53
rule and Co labor like shoulder to shoulder, right, like in
1:03:57
battle, but we're also like Co implicated in the fall, like 1
1:04:02
is not more guilty than the other.
1:04:03
Together, humanity rebelled against God.
1:04:06
And so I think although men and women are portrayed as equals
1:04:10
throughout Scripture, I think the Bible clearly defines the
1:04:15
office of elder, pastor, overseer, if we want to say that
1:04:19
specifically for qualified men, not for all men, for qualified
1:04:24
men. And I think that's that's really
1:04:26
helpful. And so that's kind of where I
1:04:27
land in regards to specifically the local church.
1:04:32
You should pitch that thought to Matt Chandler.
1:04:34
Maybe he could do a message called the Imago Day, and I
1:04:37
think that'd be a good, good sermon topic for him to do one
1:04:42
day, I think. I think as much as you know, and
1:04:46
I wholeheartedly agree with what Shanna had said about sameness.
1:04:52
It is also important though to recognize that there has been
1:04:56
established some type of headship or not some type of
1:05:01
headship within even the creation account.
1:05:05
Right? Like you said, the Adam was made
1:05:10
first. He was tasked with naming the
1:05:12
animals he names Eve. He's given instructions about
1:05:16
the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and it but it's
1:05:19
him that's called when both him and Eve send, right?
1:05:23
So he was called, it wasn't Adam and Eve, where are you?
1:05:28
It was God called out to Adam and said where are you?
1:05:32
So there is this sense of headships still that they are
1:05:37
that got established. And I think that translates not
1:05:40
only within the home but also within the church.
1:05:45
Shanna and Kristen, I don't know, I'm not familiar with your
1:05:49
church. So you may have elders and you
1:05:51
may not. And if you do, you can't just as
1:05:53
well. I just want to ask, as elders in
1:05:57
your church, does that constitute the village church to
1:06:02
have female deacons? Do you guys have female deacons?
1:06:05
We do. Yeah, Christian, I don't know
1:06:08
about your church and and your brother the way he does it or
1:06:10
no? Yeah, we're just, we're a small
1:06:12
church plant. We're about 40.
1:06:13
So we don't have elders yet. We do have a plurality of
1:06:16
pastors right now, but I would, I would agree.
1:06:20
I know when I saw that, I thought, well, it depends on how
1:06:23
deacons function in your church, right?
1:06:25
Like we grew up with Dinkins being essentially elders just
1:06:30
with the Deacon, but they weren't the serving aspect of
1:06:32
what deacons is set out in Scripture.
1:06:35
And so I think if you're within a church, then that functions
1:06:37
that way, then no, women shouldn't be deacons if they're
1:06:39
just elders, not with the elder name.
1:06:42
But if you do have the elders or plurality of pastors and your
1:06:46
deacons are expected to be the serving arm of it and kind of
1:06:50
that service aspect to the rest of the church coming alongside
1:06:54
the pastors that maybe you know, you're at a point where you just
1:06:58
you can't be that to everyone, right?
1:07:00
You can't have that service aspect to everyone, Then I don't
1:07:04
see a problem with women being able to serve in that function.
1:07:08
And even better if it's a husband and wife team, right,
1:07:11
that can serve together as deacons and being able to serve.
1:07:17
I know at the church that I went to before, they didn't quite
1:07:20
call them deacons. They had different names for
1:07:21
them because they were, I think moving them closer to that
1:07:24
portion, but it allowed. Then there was a, a pretty large
1:07:28
population of single women that had they not had women in those
1:07:34
positions, those single women would have been completely left
1:07:39
out in that service aspect because men didn't feel
1:07:42
comfortable texting a, you know, 35 year old single woman on
1:07:47
their own without their wife. And so I, I think when you don't
1:07:52
have those positions for women, you definitely do a disservice
1:07:56
to them, but also to other people within your community and
1:07:58
your church. Yeah, I, I, I, I agree.
1:08:02
I definitely think for a long time, deacons were seen as
1:08:05
leadership roles and not servant roles.
1:08:08
I love looking at the New Testament and Paul's words that
1:08:12
he uses like, you know, he tells Titus, like in Titus, he's like,
1:08:17
you know, he says to teach the older women biblical knowledge
1:08:20
to younger women. And that's like, a good and
1:08:21
beautiful and noble task. And you have Phoebe, right?
1:08:25
Like a patron Deacon of the church, like and even like
1:08:28
delivered Paul's epistles to the Romans.
1:08:31
And you have, I love, I butcher this every time I study it, but
1:08:36
it's like Uodia and Sentenci. Is that what it is?
1:08:41
Paul says, Say that again. Are you laughing at me?
1:08:44
Sentenci. Sentenci, there you go.
1:08:48
I was close, Paul said, you know, in Philippians that he,
1:08:52
they labored side by side with him.
1:08:54
And then Priscilla is described as explaining the way of God
1:08:57
more accurately to Apollos. And it's like you see in the
1:09:00
early church, the role that women played and how valuable
1:09:04
that they were. And that ministry in the early
1:09:06
church was never just confined to men.
1:09:08
And like you think as you're reading the New Testament, the
1:09:10
greetings that you see all the time in the New Testament and in
1:09:13
other passages, it just shows how women were engaged in
1:09:16
ministries. And like for the village
1:09:18
specifically, we have in our ministries, you'll never have
1:09:22
just women deacons. You'll you'll have both.
1:09:24
You'll have a women and you'll have men or like a woman and a
1:09:28
man, a Deacon for the very reasons Kristen said.
1:09:32
And I also think like women we're talking about like
1:09:36
servant, like we, I think it's innate in us.
1:09:39
I think it's like naturally we see the most vulnerable people.
1:09:43
Like I think that's the way the Lord made us.
1:09:45
And I think when you don't have those voices, you don't have
1:09:48
women in some of these spaces, the the most vulnerable gets
1:09:54
looked over. I honestly think that.
1:09:56
And so I think it's really helpful that men and women
1:10:01
laboring alongside each other is really helpful for the church.
1:10:03
Kristen, I cannot think of the last time I heard it explained
1:10:08
that well, you did an amazing job explaining the difference
1:10:12
between the deacons and elders, especially in our Southern
1:10:15
Baptist churches where we do have deacons that function
1:10:18
double function as elders in that regard.
1:10:22
And you know, and as far as my deacons, I'll put them to the
1:10:26
test on that. You know, if you're going to be
1:10:28
function as a Deacon and an elder, you better be ready to
1:10:31
teach. I'll ask them all, you know, to
1:10:33
teach and, and fill in for me because if, if they're going to
1:10:37
have both the functions, if they're going to have both the
1:10:40
responsibilities, they have to serve the function.
1:10:43
And so Christian, that was just a great, great explanation and
1:10:47
I'm going to feel. That I was going to say I'd
1:10:49
probably credit that to my other brother.
1:10:51
So I have two older brothers, both of which are pastors.
1:10:54
One of them is a pastor in Kansas.
1:10:56
And I would probably credit that because we've had those
1:10:59
discussions about it and I've seen how he's done that within
1:11:03
his church. And one of the things that I
1:11:06
love and is encouraging to me is, you know, he'll ask people
1:11:10
to preach when he's still there, right?
1:11:13
Like he'll have them go. It's not just when the pastor is
1:11:16
gone. And so then that way he is able
1:11:18
to, you know, give feedback and help to be able to mentor them
1:11:23
along. And so that's just function of
1:11:28
me and my brother going back and forth and me pushing on him and
1:11:31
being like well but why? And explain this to me so.
1:11:35
Yeah, love it. I think it's great and I
1:11:37
appreciate you guys coming on. It has been a great, great
1:11:40
episode today and look forward to seeing Brett tomorrow.
1:11:44
I guess you guys won't be there again.
1:11:46
A bunch of losers can't come and.
1:11:49
Twist in that knife. We're trying, we're trying, and
1:11:52
we're going to have a great time.
1:11:53
We'll hope to see everyone, all of our listeners tomorrow as
1:11:55
well. And it's going to be a great
1:11:57
meet up. It's going to be a great
1:11:58
conference that we get to be a part of here in Nathan.
1:12:01
I won't be able to hear JC, but Dudley as well has been able to
1:12:04
speak. It's going to be a fantastic
1:12:06
time. Thank you ladies, for coming on.
1:12:08
And we got to do this more. We got to get together and talk
1:12:12
and have these conversations. I've always enjoyed our
1:12:14
conversations, always enjoy being able to listen to you
1:12:18
guys. You guys give great content and
1:12:21
thankful for you guys as well. Just being able to be a voice in
1:12:24
a in a difficult situation. And so I appreciate all that.
1:12:27
Brett, any closing thoughts or words for from you ladies?
1:12:31
I've just, I've just enjoyed the conversation and thank you all
1:12:35
so much for coming on and being with us for a few minutes and
1:12:38
talking through this subject. I know sometimes it can be a a
1:12:41
hard and uncomfortable subject, but I appreciate y'all taking
1:12:45
the time to be with us today. Thanks.
1:12:48
Thanks for having us. It was fun.
1:12:51
Absolutely. Well, without further ado to
1:12:54
God. Not the pastor.
1:12:56
Be the glory. Found my new name, Found that
1:13:00
good grace, Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face
1:13:06
when I found my beginning that has no ending.
1:13:08
I found that second chance. Found my best friend, Found my
1:13:10
forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since And
1:13:13
thou my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
1:13:30
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
1:13:33
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
1:13:37
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
1:13:41
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.