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Episode 95 - Abigail Jenkins · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:04
So welcome back to the episode of the Bio Hub.
0:07
Today, we're delighted to welcome a visionary leader in
0:10
the biotech space in Abby Jenkins.
0:13
Abby is currently the CEO of a stealth mode company and prior
0:16
to that, she was the President and CEO of Gamida Cell, where
0:19
she stayed the company through an FDA approval.
0:22
Prior to that, Abby held pivotal leadership roles at Lindra
0:25
Therapeutics, Emergent Biosolutions, Aquinox
0:29
Pharmaceuticals, Pfizer, and Medimu.
0:32
She now brings her expertise to the boards of both Acquestic
0:35
Therapeutics and Zortek Therapeutics and earned a spot
0:39
amongst Pharma Voices 100 Most inspiring Leaders.
0:43
So, Abby, thanks so much for coming on.
0:44
How are you? I'm great.
0:47
Thank you so much for having me, Tom.
0:49
Yeah, it's a pleasure. So look, let's start off with
0:51
your story. So what first got you interested
0:54
in biotech, and how did your path lead you from science to
0:58
executive leadership? Well, like many people in the
1:02
industry, I got my start in big pharma at working at Pfizer.
1:07
Back in the heyday of Pfizer, I was actually a part of the the
1:11
launch of Viagra back in 1998 and I really enjoyed my time
1:16
advisor. Big Pharma is a great training
1:17
ground, really teaching you the business.
1:21
You get to learn the industry from the front lines and they
1:23
invest a lot in building skills in their employees and they also
1:29
offer a lot in terms of bureaucracy and politics and A
1:32
and a slower pace. So about 8 years into my
1:36
pharmaceutical career, I got recruited to a company called
1:39
Medimmune, which is now absorbed into AstraZeneca.
1:42
But at the time Medimmune was a up and coming biotech and it was
1:47
my first biotech. And at the time, Medimmune was a
1:50
commercial stage biotech, which a lot of biotechs get acquired
1:54
before they reach that stage. But Medimmune was a proper
1:57
biotech and they were planning to launch a new product and they
2:00
were looking to grow their existing portfolio.
2:03
So it was an exciting time to to go to Medimen and be a part of
2:06
that transformation. It was definitely a big change
2:10
going from big pharma to a biotech company.
2:15
Less structure, less rigor, at least at the time.
2:19
But it was a lot of white space. You could really build things
2:22
from scratch and you could move so much faster at a small
2:25
company. And at the time, Medameen wasn't
2:27
even, you know, now when I think about biotech, I think about,
2:29
you know, 10 people, 20 people, 60 people.
2:32
At the time I was going from a company that had 150,000 global
2:36
employees at Pfizer at the time to about 1500 at Medameen.
2:40
So it felt very tiny. But by biotech standards, it
2:43
was, it was a big biotech. And so there was a lot of
2:47
opportunity to build things and to really, really try on, you
2:52
know, wear a lot of hats. I think other people talk about
2:54
that, that when you go from big pharma, you tend to be a
2:56
specialist. When you go to biotech, you end
2:59
up wearing a lot of hats and you get to learn a lot of new things
3:02
and and move really quickly. So once I got a taste of that,
3:06
that biotech experience, then I just wanted to go earlier and
3:11
earlier and smaller and smaller and scrabbier and scrabbier.
3:15
I moved from Medimmune ultimately to Valypso, which
3:19
felt like a real startup and had about 60 people when I joined a
3:22
colleague and I actually from Pfizer, we were the first two
3:25
commercial employees and we built that that commercial team
3:30
up to about 256 people. And we launched that product.
3:32
That was amazing to to take a company and have its first
3:37
product that gets to market, which I'd never done up to that
3:40
point. And then I moved to a company
3:42
called Aquinox, which was at a phase two point moving into
3:47
phase three. So earlier in the journey,
3:49
whereas Ellipsa had been pre commercial, but post phase three
3:53
and then ultimately just got earlier and earlier.
3:56
Fast forward a few companies later to where I am now, which
4:01
is the earliest of all of the start-ups, you know, three of us
4:05
doing foundational fundraising with pre clinical science.
4:09
So I've just, you know, really loved that early startup
4:13
experience. Nice.
4:15
And just on to this new venture that you've got.
4:17
Without giving too much away, can you tell us about what
4:19
you're building and what motivated you to take take this
4:23
on? Sure.
4:26
I think you know coming, my last company that I was at was called
4:31
Gimme to Cell. Gimme to Cell was a company that
4:34
was bringing the first pharmaceutical grade stem cell
4:37
transplant to market, which was something that was a one time
4:41
curated life saving, potentially life saving treatment for
4:44
patients with blood cancers. And that was incredibly
4:47
meaningful because you, you know, essentially it's a
4:52
precision medicine, you know, patient for patient that the
4:54
medicine you're making has the potential to save that person's
4:58
light, which is just incredibly incredible sense of purpose and
5:04
and responsibility to deliver that product to patients, which
5:09
set an incredibly high bar for what I was looking for in my
5:13
next company. Really wanted something that
5:15
that could inspire that same sense of purpose and
5:19
responsibility. So I was in this case looking
5:21
for an even earlier stage company.
5:23
Gameta cell was pre commercial. So another opportunity to take a
5:28
company in that clinical to commercial transition, bring
5:31
their first product to market, but really wanted to get even
5:36
earlier in the in the startup journey and was looking for an
5:40
early stage company with something truly transformative
5:44
to make a difference for patients with a great team that
5:47
I wanted to work with and with this new stealth mode company,
5:50
I've found all of that here. Our science is based on
5:54
restoring the body's native tumor suppressor system in a
5:58
simple and novel way that would has the potential to be first in
6:03
class. You could think of it like
6:05
insulin for a type 1 diabetic patient that in all of us every
6:09
day if we don't have type 1 diabetes, we are going around
6:13
producing our own insulin. If we develop type 1 diabetes,
6:16
then we need to receive exogenous insulin.
6:20
In patients with solid tumors, like patients with ovarian
6:23
cancer, you get a loss of this gene function, which enables the
6:28
tumors to grow. And we believe that we can
6:31
deliver an exogenous protein that would restore that native
6:35
tumor suppression function. Our preclinical data shows that
6:39
not only a halting tumor development, but actual
6:42
shrinkage, 93% reduction in the tumor size.
6:46
And so certain cancers like ovarian cancer still have very
6:50
high mortality rates despite recent advances in cancer
6:54
treatment with ovarian cancer only there's only a 50% five
6:58
year survival rate even with all of the advancements that have
7:02
happened in the in the recent past.
7:04
And this population is often studied as a kind of add on to
7:08
other cancers like if we're studying lung cancer, colon
7:11
cancer, sure grow some ovarian cancer patients in there.
7:15
And I think that's one of the the things that has really
7:17
hindered development and advancement for for patients
7:20
with certain solid tumors like ovarian cancer.
7:23
So in this case, we believe that for patients with ovarian
7:28
cancer, there's actually the loss of this gene function that
7:32
is creating the the cancer and that if we can restore that
7:37
function, we believe that we could improve survival by at
7:40
least 50% from where it is today.
7:42
So really an opportunity to make a big difference and have a
7:47
transformative therapy if we can raise the money to get into the
7:51
clinic and really test this out in here.
7:56
Nice. Exciting.
7:58
You've been an advocate for early stage, early stage
8:01
science. Why?
8:03
Why is that so important to you and how do you think it impacts
8:06
the future of the biotech ecosystem?
8:13
I think it's essential to maintaining a thriving biopharma
8:17
ecosystem, especially here in the Usus companies have been the
8:21
substrate for most of the life changing blockbuster medicines
8:25
of our time. And often it's little biotech
8:28
companies that make those game changing transformative
8:33
therapies that end up getting a fired by bigger pharmaceutical
8:35
companies that enable them to be more accessible to more patients
8:40
because they can put more infrastructure and resources
8:42
against the medicines. But we all know that about nine
8:46
out of 10 drugs fail, that the science is hard.
8:49
You know, clinical trials, especially with novel mechanisms
8:54
and novel modalities, it's hard to know going in exactly how to
8:58
design those trials and ensure that you not only show a
9:01
clinical benefit with a good safety profile, but have what
9:04
regulators will require to get a drug ultimately approved.
9:08
So that means that we've got to be taking a lot of shots on bowl
9:12
in order to get a few of them. One out of 10, you know, 10%
9:16
that are going to make it ultimately to the patients that
9:18
need them. And, you know, I think when you
9:21
think about 9 out of 10 things failing, you focus on the
9:24
failure and the, the cost of that failure.
9:26
But many of the, of the breakthroughs ultimately have
9:30
come from the failures that we learn through the science that
9:34
doesn't work just as much as we learn through the science that
9:36
does work. I mentioned that I got my card
9:39
in the industry of being a part of the, the launch expansion for
9:43
Viagra. Viagra is an excellent example
9:47
of success by failure at that drug was originally developed as
9:50
a treatment angina that ultimately was approved for
9:55
erectile dysfunction. So I think in that way, that's
9:58
just an example where they're, you know, it's not just getting
10:01
to the one out of 10 succeeds, but it's everything that we
10:04
learn through the pursuit of science and pushing the
10:07
boundaries and really looking for novel and better treatments
10:12
across disease states that that we thrive in this industry.
10:15
So we can't lose our passion and we can't lose the quest for
10:18
scientific advancement. And we can't forget, you know of
10:22
the important role that the US plays in driving that engine.
10:26
If you needed the bottom line reason on why we need to fuel
10:29
this, there is an economic aspect to it in that if there
10:33
are less investments in early companies and emerging
10:36
technologies, ultimately if we Fast forward you know maybe not
10:40
two years from now or five years from now, but 10 years from now.
10:45
We if we don't invest in this, we won't have the opportunities
10:49
for M&A and we won't be able to drive that economic engine that
10:53
is the biopharmaceutical industry in the future.
10:56
Nice. And just looking back at your
10:59
time at Gamida Cell, what were some of the key lessons you
11:02
learned from both some of the successes and the setbacks that
11:04
you have there? I think 3 of the key lessons
11:10
that I learned from that experience, and that was my, my
11:13
first CEO experience. It was a public company at a
11:18
time where we were under some financial pressure against the
11:21
backdrop of the very challenging financial landscape and
11:26
fundraising landscape. So there's certainly a unique
11:29
time to be trying to launch a cell therapy.
11:32
We were also one of the first companies that that launched a
11:36
cell therapy without having been acquired.
11:39
So we were very exposed. We weren't buried under the PNL
11:42
of a, you know, bigger revenue generating portfolio.
11:46
So I think 3 lessons I learned, number one, and, and this one, I
11:49
feel like Demitisel didn't have to teach me, but because I've
11:52
learned it through my 25 years, you know, largely on the
11:56
commercial and business and business development side of the
11:59
business. That number one, commercial
12:01
planning needs to be hand in hand with clinical and
12:05
regulatory development planning #2 the unique, unique cost
12:10
structure that is cell and gene therapy versus other modalities
12:15
and, and other types of products, especially small
12:18
molecules and biologics. And then the importance of
12:22
resilience, how important that skill is almost above all, all
12:27
others if you're going to be in the biotech industry for the
12:30
long term. So if I take each one of these,
12:32
the commercial planning and prep, I would say to the degree
12:36
you're introducing a therapy that is disruptive, and this is
12:40
true whether you're in the oral small molecule primary care
12:44
space or you're all the way at the other end of the spectrum in
12:47
these advanced cell and gene therapies.
12:49
The more disruptive that therapy is going to be to how healthcare
12:53
providers practicing today, the more you have to invest
12:57
financially in medical education and market development before
13:03
the products comes to market to kind of get healthcare providers
13:06
ready for this revolution. And then how much you're going
13:09
to have to spend once the product is approved, promoting
13:13
the products. And I think you know, a lot of
13:16
people may have thought well be selling gene therapies,
13:19
especially for curative. They're they're kind of just
13:22
going to sell themselves and all you need to do is get them to
13:25
market and the patients will come.
13:28
And unfortunately that's not how it how it works out with most of
13:33
these a special cell and gene therapies.
13:35
It's it's not so much the reimbursement and provides our
13:39
land state that's challenging because you know, you're talking
13:43
about ultra orphan populations and curative therapies.
13:46
There's a a momentum there that will get those products
13:50
available, accessible to patient.
13:52
It's really changing healthcare provider behavior and all the
13:55
logistics that are tied to really getting your product to
14:00
the patient at the moment that they need it.
14:02
So I think you need to be companies, especially those that
14:05
are in in disruptive spaces and Cell and Gene need to be
14:09
planning for even greater financial investments on the
14:12
commercial side alongside clinical and regulatory spend.
14:16
You've also tied with this, you've also got to be planning
14:19
to carry the costs a lot longer. It used to be, you know, you
14:22
would introduce a product and and very quickly become revenue
14:26
generating and especially with these complex therapies.
14:31
But even if I go back to launching 10 years ago, Veltassa
14:35
with Relipsa, there was already a change in the market happening
14:38
where payers were putting mandatory restrictions where we
14:42
won't, you know, essentially review this product for 10
14:44
years. Obviously to the degree to which
14:46
your product is Medicare and Medicaid dependent, they have
14:50
very slow review cycles inherently as well.
14:53
So it it shifted out how quickly you could become revenue
14:58
generating, which ultimately shifts out your path to
15:00
profitability. When you then take that into an
15:03
ultra rare population with a more complicated product that
15:08
requires special handling and a lot of logistics that go with
15:11
it. What that means is you're,
15:12
you're going to have a much slower path to revenue, which
15:16
means you have to be carrying your operating costs a lot
15:19
longer on getting to that point. And I think that's a huge shift
15:22
in the mindset of operators at Biotechs, but also a huge shift
15:26
in the mindset of investors where these complex life saving,
15:30
life changing therapies have the potential to make a huge impact.
15:34
But it's a delay in value creation.
15:37
And ultimately, when you can see a return on that investment, so
15:40
#2 is just understanding that like the even for smaller
15:44
molecules and biologics, you're going to shift out the, the
15:48
revenue trajectory, you know, from where it has been
15:52
historically. And then #3 which was resilience
15:56
above everything else. Ultimately, we found a path
15:59
forward for Jamita Cell. The company went from being
16:02
public to private. And that entity, that new entity
16:07
has been able to aggravate a few different products under the
16:10
umbrella, which Jamita Cell self fit to try to improve the
16:14
efficiency of that investment and our cost structure.
16:18
But we had to maintain our resilience.
16:20
The pack to getting there was not a straightforward pack.
16:23
It came with so many turns and and hurdles along the way.
16:29
Every time we felt like we had, we had gotten through it and now
16:32
we were in the clear, there would be some new big crisis
16:36
that fell on us. The the most challenging of
16:39
which was the fact that we had just become commercial stage
16:43
toward the end of September on in 2020, let's see, 2023
16:49
actually. And then we felt like again,
16:54
we're finally turning that corner to revenue.
16:58
About 5 months after we launched the product, war broke out in
17:02
Israel where we manufacture the product.
17:04
And you just think, wow, this is amazing.
17:08
How do I, how do I make the right decisions here, the right
17:11
decision for for patients, for employees, for the company, for
17:16
shareholders, A lot of responsibility and, you know,
17:19
not knowing is the war going to escalate and how long is this
17:24
going to last? And ultimately trying to make
17:26
sure that we kept patients front and center.
17:29
So it was really challenging. But through all of this, our
17:32
team was amazing. Our manufacturing team in Israel
17:35
was basically like, Nope, we put patients first, we'll figure it
17:38
out. And they did they, you know,
17:40
found a way forward and we ultimately found a way forward
17:44
for the company. We were able to raise money even
17:47
under these circumstances and extend the, the, the attached
17:53
runway multiple times. Wicomedasolin ultimately found
17:57
that path forward by having a private equity company take the
18:03
company private and and that created a path for patients and
18:08
employees and shareholders. While many of our cell therapy
18:13
peers were forced to close their doors of the sink.
18:16
And I can actually say resilience, just, you know,
18:19
figuring it out, finding a path forward was Keith that.
18:23
Yeah. I think there's a growing trend
18:26
of biotech companies thinking about commercialization.
18:29
But really, right, I know you come from a commercial
18:31
background. What's what's your take on when
18:34
it makes sense to bring in commercial strategy to start
18:37
building those teams? Well, as as you said, as I
18:41
mentioned earlier, it's key. I think one of the things I
18:45
learned from my big pharma days because they have so many
18:49
resources as they can dedicate commercial employees, commercial
18:54
team members to new product planning or to early pipeline
18:58
products to bring that commercial assessment to the
19:01
table. In fact, that's typically a part
19:04
of a go, no go decision to go forward on an R&D investment
19:08
based on, you know, ultimately the potential value of that
19:11
asset if it's successful going forward.
19:13
So that is pretty much instilled in me and and I believe in it
19:18
because you've got to ensure that there is a market for the
19:21
product and a real market, not just kind of some degree of
19:25
unmet need or something that might be a convenience play or
19:30
or slight improvement in the side effect profile.
19:32
There's got to be something that really drives providers to use
19:36
the product and ultimately patients to fill their
19:38
prescriptions or to get their infusion or their injection.
19:42
And, and it's important because especially if you're a biotech
19:46
company, when you're go out, going out and fundraising,
19:49
you're fundraising on the strength of the science, its
19:53
potential to be successful through clinical development and
19:56
regulatory approval. But ultimately, they're banking
19:59
on the fact that some big pharma is going to want to do M&A and
20:02
create an exit for the company or that there's going to be some
20:05
potential for OR. The company to go public or some
20:10
value creation on the stock side of things.
20:12
So really that's tied to the belief in this product's ability
20:17
to make a difference in the market.
20:19
And it's important to be thinking about that right from
20:22
the beginning. You know, sometimes I've, I've
20:25
come into a company where the companies post Phase 2 going
20:28
into a phase three or even post phase 3 heading into filing,
20:33
which is where ellipsoid was at the time.
20:36
And they're like, great, Now we need you to come in and prepare
20:39
for the launch this product and you're like, oh goodness, like
20:42
this, This is really going to be a challenge based on the dosing
20:46
frequency, based on the side effect profile, based on what's
20:50
likely going to be the indication for the product,
20:52
based on how the clinical trials were conducted.
20:55
And so you really want to be thinking about this as much as
20:57
you can from the beginning, even with the stealth mode company
21:02
that I'm working with, you know, we're looking at where the
21:05
preclinical sciences today and how we can ultimately design the
21:09
formulation of the product and design the clinical trials to
21:12
have the most meaningful impact, be able to achieve our clinical
21:17
success and regulatory success, of course, but ultimately have
21:20
the potential to make a meaningful difference when used
21:24
for patients at the end of the day.
21:25
And so ideally you want to start that as early as possible in a,
21:30
in a drug candidates life cycle. And that doesn't mean that a
21:33
company that needs to hire hire a full time commercial employee
21:37
or chief commercial officer from the beginning, but they would
21:40
absolutely benefit from having a commercial consultant come in or
21:43
advisor early in the process to be helping them think about how
21:47
they build commercial value in their development program from
21:50
the beginning. Nice.
21:53
And you've been part of the biotech CEO sisterhood.
21:56
I've had the pleasure of knowing a number of people who are also
21:59
part of that community as well. How has that community supported
22:03
you in your leadership journey, and why do you think it's
22:07
important in today's biotech landscape as well?
22:12
Well, I'm so grateful to the founders, Sheila, Angie, Julia
22:16
for creating this community. I it's only been around for a
22:20
few years and we're up to about 300 members now.
22:23
And it's amazing to look around and have all of these sisters.
22:27
They say that being ACEO is the loneliest job, and I think it
22:31
is. That is very true.
22:33
I also think it goes double when you're in the minority.
22:37
And when you look, you can look at a number of different metrics
22:40
on the subject of how many female CE OS there are.
22:43
Whether you're looking at how many females CE OS are doing
22:47
early fundraises in the last two years or how many public
22:50
companies with a market cap of 100 million or more are you
22:54
know, helmed by female CE OS. If you look at just biotech
22:58
companies that whatever that means and I've seen three
23:01
different metrics on this. I can see that the number is as
23:04
low as 8 to 9%, might be as high as 18%.
23:09
But so let's call that 10 to 15% of CEO is not carrying big
23:13
pharma, which we know is only one.
23:16
But if we say 10 to 15% of CE OS are women, you know, OK, better
23:23
than it could be. And 300 sounds like a lot on the
23:27
one hand, but it really isn't close to, you know, looking at
23:31
women kind of overall in the workforce at managerial levels,
23:36
even at the C-Suite level, you know, 10 to 15% isn't equity and
23:42
it's not close to the level of representation we would expect.
23:46
So, you know, on the one side of the sisterhood, there's the
23:49
community and having people that you can reach out to, to ask
23:53
questions, to get insights to commiserate on.
23:56
But the other really important aspect of the sisterhood kind of
23:59
going back to these metrics is the advocacy and advocating for
24:04
continued female leadership equity.
24:07
And and not because you just want it, you know, like we
24:11
should have equity, but because the biopharma industry and our
24:16
patients benefit when there's that sort of representation,
24:19
especially in emerging pharma. One of the things I found
24:22
interesting when I saw, you know, the sisterhood and I
24:26
started to see my peers out there is that a significant
24:30
percentage of that 300 female CEOs, in fact, they're founders.
24:35
It's their science that they're that they have created, that
24:39
they're championing, that they're putting these building
24:41
these companies around, which is incredibly inspiring, but also
24:45
must be extremely challenging when you don't have that other
24:50
experience, Especially when most investors are looking for CE OS
24:55
to be, you know, quote UN quote, proven leaders when they're
24:58
backing companies, when they're building companies.
25:01
And so they're, you know, in my last year searching for my next
25:04
opportunity after Demetus Cell, I heard repeatedly, well, we're
25:07
looking for more of a proven leader.
25:10
And when you unpack that a little bit and know someone
25:12
that's really raised more than $100 million in one tranche,
25:16
because I'd raised $100 million, but not in one tranche.
25:19
You know, somebody that's taken a company public that's had a
25:22
big ends it, you know, like a billion dollars or more, That
25:26
sounds fantastic. I think that's probably a
25:29
Unicorn. Even even looking at male CE OS,
25:33
I mean, that's a pretty tall order, But when you've only got
25:36
say 10 to 15% of female CE OS at the helm, a lot of us founders,
25:42
then the odds are really against us in meeting that kind of
25:45
proven leader metric. And this really makes me think
25:49
more about data, you know, of the past, which was around
25:53
secondary bias when when hiring managers were recruiting for
25:58
managers. And, you know, you looked at
26:01
those ranks 20 years ago and there weren't very many women
26:04
represented in managerial ranks. And when they started to unpack
26:09
that, they found that it's based on the criteria you're looking
26:12
for. That if you're looking for
26:14
people who've been able to take increasing roles and
26:18
responsibility, which in the past meant moving often or
26:22
international assignments or things, those were criteria that
26:27
it was harder for for women to stack up against.
26:29
When they started to expand the criteria this or that, then
26:34
there, then it created more opportunities for women to step
26:37
into the roles. So I think if you want to change
26:40
the data, ultimately we're going to have to change the criteria
26:43
of what proven leaders work for, in terms of what proven leaders
26:48
mean out there in the market. And, and not just for the sake
26:52
of equity, not for the sake of metrics, but the data shows that
26:55
companies that are run by women often outperform in terms of
26:59
stock price momentum, in terms of return on equity, ability to
27:03
manage downside risks in the business and ultimately
27:07
resilience and a crisis, which is things we be in biotech on
27:12
routinely. So it's not just good for
27:15
business, but it's really good for business to have an increase
27:18
in representation. And so if you can have dinner
27:22
with three people, past or present, who would it be and
27:26
why? Wow.
27:29
OK, this is the top question. I'm going to go with my mom and
27:37
Eve. So my mom passed away just a few
27:41
months ago and that's been really hard.
27:44
I know losing a loved one is hard, and I've heard from others
27:48
who've lost their mother. It's particularly difficult lost
27:52
to lose a mom. And she certainly taught me a
27:55
lot about hard work and responsibility, gratitude, and
28:00
ultimately that that resilience. I can definitely say it was
28:04
fostered through my mom and I miss her every day.
28:07
And I would give anything for just one more moment with her.
28:11
A dinner would be fantastic. My second one is Mark
28:16
Zuckerberg. So this is he's, he's living,
28:18
he's the, he's the only living person of my 3.
28:22
And really this is I would just ask him what would he do again?
28:27
What would he do differently if he had to do it over again?
28:31
And specifically as it relates to launching us into this social
28:36
media era. In my undergraduate life, I had
28:39
a dual focus where and I was I was scientific in undergrad at
28:44
Indiana University and in Graduate School at Johns
28:47
Hopkins. Everything was just about
28:49
science. But I even took a a psychology
28:52
degree and turned it into a scientific degree in that I was
28:55
able to customize with a focus in neurobiology, which was kind
28:59
of an up and coming field at the time.
29:02
And we learned about cognitive frameworks and I got very
29:04
interested in the drivers of addiction and consequences of
29:08
behaviors and implications for self esteem and ultimately
29:12
aggression later in life. So it was fascinating as I kind
29:15
of peeled back this onion and as social media was emerging, I
29:19
could foresee that there were some dangers looming, especially
29:23
for young people who have those networks, have those networks,
29:28
both cognitive and behavioral still forming.
29:31
And so I would really love to understand now that he knows
29:36
some of the consequences, which I very much believe were were
29:39
largely unforeseen at the time, you know, what, what would he do
29:43
again and, and what would he do differently?
29:45
If anything, maybe his answer would be, I'm cool with it.
29:48
It is what it is, but I'd love to know.
29:51
And then the first, the third one is Eve.
29:53
And yes, that Eve, like as in the first woman, you know,
29:57
because I would just like to know what really happened in
30:00
that garden. Yeah, but look, 3 terrific
30:07
answers there. And I'm, I'm looking forward to
30:09
following your next journey adventure eventually when you
30:13
come out of stealth and I'm sure that's going to be a, a huge
30:15
success. So look, Abby, thanks so much
30:18
for coming on and and helping us out with this.
30:20
It's been a, it's been a pleasure.
30:23
Thank you, Tom. Thanks so much for having me.
30:25
No problem.