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Transcript

Sausage Party · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, EFFI bast
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, welcome to the Bachdell Cast.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, ready to party, Ready to sausage party?
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Yes I am, because today is my shameless plugging day.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Today is the day where we are doing a movie
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: that is technically about hot dogs but is also I
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know, uh, but we're celebrating the
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: release of Raw Dog, my first book. When you're hearing this,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: it will be out. You should definitely go buy it
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: at your local bookstore. Don't know, Amazon, fuckery. Please I'll
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: accept the Barnes and Noble, but only if you're in
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: a difficult like only if you're not near an independent books,
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: which you probably are, So go get It's my book
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: about the history of hot dogs and a road trip
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I took in twenty twenty one trying hot dogs across
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: the country. It is about leftist politics, it is about workers' rights,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: it is about the history of like how American jingoism
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: is connected to the hot dog It's about following people
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: around in the Wienermobile. It's about falling in love with
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Joey Chestnut. But also it's complicated and I don't really
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: fuck with him, but I do have a crush on him,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: gross problematic fave Joey Chestnut and my king to Karo Kobyashi,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: as well as all of the kind of twisted bizarre. Well,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: this is actually maybe where it overlaps with Sausage Party,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: which we're talking about today, which mercifully does not come
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: up in the book. I did not there, there is
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: no space, and I didn't want to know. I just
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: didn't want to. But in Professional hot Dog Eating, there's
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of historical issues regarding racism and gender discrimination
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: within that sport. Yes, it's a sport. No, I will
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: not be taking questions or arguments about it. It is
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: a sport, and that is something that has in common
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: with the movie we're discussing today, So shameless plunge.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: And racism and yes, all of those things, yes huh.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: But one thing it doesn't have that Sausage Party does
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: is bad writing. It's a good book. I should buy it,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: and I or if you're not in a position to
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: buy it. We'll link in this episode of different ways
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: to request that it be brought to your local library.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: That's also a great way. There's also an audio book
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: that's narrated by me, but they're like, hey, podcaster getting
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: that booth and I did. And my audio engineer's name
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: was Tim, and he was a vegan, and he was like,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: oh my god, oh gee whiz. We really learned from
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: each other that week. He's from New Zealand, kind of iconic,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and he's like, I can't do anyw Zealand accent. But
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: he was like, this country is so fucked and I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: was like, that's right, Tim, that's right. And that's an
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: example of something that did not pass the Bechdel test.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Me and Tim shooting the shit. Yeah. Was it pleasant, yes,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: of course, but did not pass.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: And which what a wonderful transition to our show and
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: what it's about. So this is the Bechdel Cast.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Hello.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Derante.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: My name is Jamie loftis author of Raw Dog Out Now.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: And this is our show where we analyze movies through
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel It was a
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: weird way to say that using the Bechtel test simply
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: as a jumping off point to initiate a far larger
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: conversation about representation and such in FLIM. The Bechdel test
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: being a media metric sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: that first appeared in Alison Bechdel Queer icon queer cartoonist
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel's comic Dykes to Watch out For. Originally intended
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: just as sort of like a one off joke, it
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: was a bit, but it has since been used as
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: this media metric. There are many versions of it. The
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: one that we use is this two characters of a
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: marginalized gender must have names. Those characters have to talk
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: to each other about something other than a man, and
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: we particularly enjoy it when it is a narratively meaningful
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: conversation and not just a hi, hot dog number one Hello.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Also, I resent the aggressive gendering of the hot dog
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: expanded universe. Hot dogs are Look, they're beautiful. They don't
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: know gender, and this is I mean it, Katelyn, no love.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I love these damn things.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I love to eat hot dogs.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: When they're ethically produced. I'm smiling, and they don't know gender.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: They transcend gender and class. That's the whole point of
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: a hot dog there for everybody. Why according to this
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: movie that's rogan God, we'll talk about it. Got well,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: actually I have a lot of hot dog gendering thoughts,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: which we'll get around to. But yes, this movie, I mean,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: for it's many flaws. It does pass the Bexel test,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: not the way as I particularly like. Oh it's heinous,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: but yeah, but that's why we talk about all the time.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: It's a flawed metric. It was created as a bit.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: But there's plenty to talk about. And boy, oh boy,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: this movie came out in twenty sixteen, but it really
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: feels like it came out in two thousand and four.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: It has like huge two thousand and four vibes. But
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: it was a I kind of forgot we were talking
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: about this earlier. I forgot that Sausage Party was apparently
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: a huge hit.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was like a box office smash hit. It
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: was for a while the highest grossing R rated movie
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: ever until it was really such a bummer. Oh sorry, okay,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: I made some stuff up. It was the highest grossing
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: R rated animated film, not R rated film in general,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: but which R rated animated film because it grossed one
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: hundred and forty one million dollars at the box office
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: against a budget of nineteen million dollars, which is a
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: low budget for an animated feature. And will go into
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: how that happened later. The budget on this movie is
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: low for.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: A animated and then I have a lot of feelings
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: on animation labor. Yeah, well, sEH, we'll get to Animators
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: are treated so horribly and people across the spectrum in
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: terms of jobs in animation are just treated terribly. And
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: this also it also feels like it ties into conversations
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: that have gone on in the last couple of years
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: around effects workers in Marvel movies, where that's constantly been
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: like people working overtime and then not just being worked
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: to death. And you know, the whole ethos is like
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: you should be lucky to work on a Marvel movie,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: and it's like, go fuck yourself. Yes, but yees, so
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: it was a pretty big hit and I'm realizing Kaitlyn. I,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: first of all, I appreciate that you were willing to
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: do a hot dog themed movie to line up.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: With Oh yeah, this was my idea.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Sorry hot Dog, which is which dog out?
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I will say I thought this was the only movie
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: about hot dogs, but shows what I fucking know because
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: my friend Mitch last night gave me a DVD for
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: something called hot Dog the Movie. Why that came out
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four. Well, I haven't read this anopsis yet, Okay,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I've had It's definitely share it. Well, of course I can.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Let me get the sticker off. Hold on, Okay, there's
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: a booklet inside. How we're gonna just read the beginning
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: good snowballs and powder bunnies, the sex tactic, slapstick slaloam
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: of hot Dog the movie? What hot Dogs the movie?
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not even following. I think it's a skiing movie
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: is Also what's gonna do? Is the whole thing appears
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: to take place at a Let's find out what Dog
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: the movie is. This is the supreme Bacchanalian Ski movie blowout,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: toward which all previous Bacchanalian Ski movie blowouts has led,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: and from which all subsequent Bachanalian Ski movie blowouts have
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: since proceeded. Backward, upside down and drunkenly spinning through the
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: air between snow capped jumping off points, hitting theaters in
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: early nineteen eighty four, at the ascending peak of post
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Porky's teen sex comedy mania. Oh Boy, hot Dog's protagonists
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: may not have been in high school or college, but
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: the movie's ski lodge setting and r rated raunch landed
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: it squarely in the cannon of high eighties adolescent anarchy farces.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: Let me just keep us So this is like a bias,
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: a biography of the movie more than a synopsis.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I'm under real this is a movie about skiing. Why
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: is it called hot Dog the movie? Wait? Hang on,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: I'm getting pissed off. I'm getting pissed off. Let's google where? Yeah,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: when is when the hot dogs coming?
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: Are the skiers?
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Like?
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: Are the wait?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: It's about? The film stars Patrick Hawser as Harken Banks,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: a young and ambitious freestyle skier from Bonners Ferry, Idaho,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: who's determined to prove himself in the freestyle skiing competition
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: at Squaw Valley. Along the way, he teams with a
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: there's no hot dogs in this movie.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just about it's a teen sex comedy about
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: freestyle skiers.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Well, that has nothing to do with hot dogs, And
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I'm pissed. Apparently this movie made it budget back eleven times.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Not that he has ever heard of it, and hopefully
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: that's what will happen to the movie we're discussing as
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: today as well, Sausage Party. Caitlin Doranday, what's her history
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: with this movie?
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: I did not see it in theaters, but I did
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: see it shortly after it came out, because there was
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: a lot of buzz about this movie. Not only was
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: it a box office hit, it was critically well received.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: It has eighty two percent on Rotten Tomatoes, which is
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: unexplained that the male I remember being shocked by that
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: at the time too, because this was shortly before the
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast began. Yeah, this came out the summer before
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: mm hm.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: So I saw it sometime later in twenty sixteen, and
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: remember thinking, and this was before I was like, like
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: you said, this was before we started the Bechdel Cast.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: So even though like representation was on my mind when
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: I was watching movies, you know, we didn't have quite
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: the nuanced takes that we do now.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: But you don't need a nuanced view of cinema to
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: realize that.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: I would say that this is one of the worst
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: movies I've ever seen from a storytelling point of view
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: and from a representation point of view, It's just abysmal
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: in every imaginable way.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: It's a really And it's interesting to read back the
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: good reviews of this movie because there is sort of
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: a lot of like and I do think it has
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: to do with how beloved seth Rogen is by pop
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: culture and by the general culture in general, and general
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: culture in general, Jae come on, and I'm like, we're
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: not knocking Seth Rogen fans, Like I've enjoyed a lot
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: of Seth Rogen over the years, although I did used
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: to say I would deport them to Canada, which was
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: not nice of me, but no, I mean it's like
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I've I've enjoyed a lot of Seth Rogen's work. This
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: is just really not I don't know. I felt a
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: sort of like in reading a lot of reviews, a
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: lot of bending over backwards to make this movie okay
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: because Seth Rogan made it and like all these beloved
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: comedians of this era made it. And I do wonder
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: what how this movie would be received if it came
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: out now. And also like reading about the ostensible like
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: intentions that the writers had, like where they were like,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: it's this is something that we'll get into it but
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: it just like never ever, ever, ever, ever works when
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: someone's like, this movie is equal opportunity offensive, no one
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: is safe from my pen and it's just like, well,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: that completely ignores any dynamics of like privilege or who
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: gets to make most movies, So that does not work.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: And it's just like I was reading in the reviews
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: of this that I don't know, like the closest I
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: could say to something positive about this movie is that
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: it's attempting to say something about faith. I don't think
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: it successfully does. I understand that it's attempting to. But
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: everything else is just like presenting very broad stereotypes in
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: a way that is not presenting the I was not seeing.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: The commentary that was implied in some of these reviews
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: is I'm like commenting on what exactly exactly what does
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Bill Hayter playing a native character in the most broadly
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: offensive way possible on multiple levels? What does that comment anything?
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the critical consensus on Rotten Tomatoes.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Is which, again, Rotten Tomatoes is like a shitty metric, but.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: So people consult it like I go on Rotten Tomatoes
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: to be like should I see this movie?
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know sure?
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: But the critic consensus is Sausage Party is definitely offensive.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: I agree with that, but backs up its enthusiastic profanity
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: with an impressively high laugh to gag Ratio. I do
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: not agree with that because I did not laugh fucking once.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: No, it's all puns.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like, it's all bad, and I love a pun,
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: but none of these puns are good.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: And then then the final part of this is so
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it backs up the enthusiastic profanity with
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: an impressively high laugh to gag Ratio and a surprisingly
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: thought provoking storyline.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Also, no, I like truly the no no like this
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: is I went to a letterboxed on this one as well,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: just to get a fe I love letterbox reviews a lot.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Oh they're great. The top review is I'm only four
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: minutes into this, but I think this is the most
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: evil movie I've ever seen. And I hard agree with that.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: And this is why we need better movies about hot dogs.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: And I would I I'm you know, I'm not even
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: throwing my hat in the ring. I am the fucking ring.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna make a hot dog movie that doesn't suck ass.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: This is my history with this movie is that I
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: saw it similar shortly after it came out, because but
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I remember like seeing it with a friend that we
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: were watching it again. We hadn't started the Betel cast.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean we weren't feminists or like didn't
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: have a brain that like. I saw it because I
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: thought I would be a like really upset and annoyed
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: by it, and so we watched it kind of as
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: like a joke. Yeah, and you know, sure enough, I
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: fucking hated it. I may have written about it at
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the time. This was back when I was doing a
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: lot of like writing. I mean, I was like a
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: full time writer on various websites. Wow brag, thank you.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm pretty sure I wrote an essay about
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: it for Paste at the time, not about Sausage Party
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: in particular, but like this like manchild comedy that I
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: think has since this is kind of like as far
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: as I can tell, at least in the hugely popular
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: sense kind of the tail end of it. Yeah, and
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: it had a fucking run. I would say that this
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: like style of broadly offensive humor that employs all of
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: these fucking tropes that says it saying something, but it's not.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: And it's pretty fucking evil, is they. It had a good,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: like decade long kind of choke hold on comedy in.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: Movies, and it was like the Judd Apatow era.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Well, it's like yeah, and it's like that's the thing
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that's fascinating, frustrating whatever about it is like even Judd
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Apatow and Seth Rogan don't do shit like this anymore
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: because I don't think that they can get away with it.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I know Seth has Seth Rogan not been like, oops,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: I made some stuff back in the day that I
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: can't really vouch for anymore. Did that happen, Yes, definitely, Yeah,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: he did so.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it is kind of interesting that in
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: the last two years, it appears this like started in
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, Seth Rogan has attempted to sort of
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: address past offensive both like content in movies and treatment
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: of people, if not from him specifically by a production
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: that he was involved whether or in charge of. So.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Examples would include i'ma Watson and this is the end
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Catherine Heigel in Knocked Up, and I'm also seeing an
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: incident regarding a child actor in Good Boys, a movie
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I did not see having their skin darkened. Oh yeah,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So there was this sort of I don't want to
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: be too reductive and say apology tour like, but a
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: series of like this is such a I don't know,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: but they're okay in any case. My opinion is that
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Sausage Party is too recent to be doing but it
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: does feel like this all that to say, Sausage Party
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: feels like arriving at the tail end of this style
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: of comedy being extremely mainstream popular.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it still has a long way to go,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: but there was kind of like a cultural turning point,
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: like right around this time where media and especially comedy
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: wasn't so reliant on reductive stereotypes and tropes and punching
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: down humor, which we've talked about many times on the show.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: That became way less popular right around this time.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, and this it's because the Bechtel no kidding.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, we fixed the world. You're welcome, everybody, no
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: I do think it like has I mean whatever, We're
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: not historians or anthropologists, but this comes out, you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the summer before the twenty sixteen election, which I feel
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: like was a marked kind of a huge shift in
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: demanding better representation for sure in movies. Was that successful
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: still TBD, working on it, work in progress. But I
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: do take a little bit of comfort in watching this
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: movie that was a hit in twenty sixteen and feeling
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: pretty confident that it probably couldn't even get green lid
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: here right now. So that makes me feel a little better.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I saw this movie as a joke. I
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: have not thought of it since really, I mean to
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the point where I literally wrote a book about hot
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: dogs and didn't even think to include it. Right.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it has no lasting legacy, which is comforting.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: No, and I don't think I think, especially because of
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: the style of humor being so broad and I think evil,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: as well as the labor issues that sort of stuck
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: to this movie for several years. I know that there's
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: been interest in a sequel from Seth Rogan, but I
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: just personally I don't see it happening. However, Caitlin. In
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: October twenty twenty two, Sausage Party Food Topia, a sequel
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: series based on the film, was greenlt from Amazon Studios.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: So too, well, you know, uh, look at look at God,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: which is what this movie says it's about, but it's not. Yeah,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: should we get into. This movie really is viscerally upset. Yeah,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and it's there's so many like I mean, this is
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: true of a lot of the there's like a lot
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: of performers I genuinely enjoy in this movie.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: And there's so many people that are too good for
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: the Why is Selma Hike in this?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Oh God? I mean we'll get into I mean, I
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: I at very least hope that people were well some
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't even know. I don't know, I
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: don't know. I'm so like, oh, I don't know, Yeah,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: why did they? I just feel deflated?
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: Same. Well, let's take a quick break and regroup. Yes,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: and then we'll come back for a recap that will
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: just upset us again. Great, So we'll be right back.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: And we're back, all right. Can I just quickly read
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: off the cast for this movie? Please? Okay? It really
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: is all okay, seth Rogen, Michael Sarah Kristen Wick, Edward Norton,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: question Mark, David Crumb, Holds h betrayal, Salma Hayak, Bill Hayter.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: I think comes out the worst, yeah, out of the
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: whole cast. And that's saying something. Craig Robinson, Nick Kroll,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: James Franco, Jonah Haill, Andrews Home, Danny McBride, how dare he?
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Paul Rudd, It's just come on, come on, yeah, all
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: of you, all of you, shame on you, except for
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: I would say Salama hyak, everyone else, shame on you. Yeah.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: But also her character. We'll get there, Okay.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know. So I don't know. I hope they
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: paid her a lot of money. But also, oh my god,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: we didn't what they probably didn't. Why would you do this?
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: How I can't imagine outside of money, you know. I
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: just don't know. I just don't know. I was thinking
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: about this the other day when I was watching a
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: video of Bill nigh he O King, who describes walking
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: around the set of Pirates of the Caribbean when he
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: was playing Davy Jones, just saying the money, the money,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: the money. I was like, I hope, oh wow, oh
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: he's the best of him.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Sausage party. So most of the movie.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Takes place at a grocery store called Shop Wells. We
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: meet a few hot dogs in a pack. Frank voiced
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: by Seth Rogen.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: As a hot dog. He's Frank hilarious. I'm laughing already. Wait,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: but do the buns have tits? This is so upset
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: gender essentialism with hot dogs, like oh oh oh, that's nasty.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: There's a whole spiel I have that's fucking filthy.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: Another hot dog is Carl voiced by Jonah Hill and
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Barry voiced by Michael Sarah. These hot dogs, along with
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: all of the other food and condiments and household products
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: in this grocery store, are sentient, and their goal is
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: to be selected by people who the food thinks are gods.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, so quick energ I'm gonna try to try my
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: best to enjoy this episode more by interjecting with hot
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: dog facts. I love please that dogs are now sentient. Yes, no,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: I will say that there is not that. I think
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: that anyone who was writing this movie was thinking a
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: thought the entire time. Correct, But there is a weird
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: precedent for like picturing like hot dogs specifically, but also
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of food of just like anthropomortiizing food in
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: a way that is like begging you to eat it
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: in a way that's kind of nasty. And there's one
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: particular hot dog statue that is I've seen it across
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: the country. I want I don't know. I didn't. This
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: was not an international project, so I can only speak
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: to the US. If you're a listener outside of the
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: US that has seen this hot dog statue, please let
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: me know. It's so gross. It is a It's first
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: of all, it's huge, It's like six feet tall, and
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: it's it sort of is anthropomorphized in the Mickey Mouse
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: way that that these hot dogs are. They got the
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: white gloves, they got the little legs, whatever, you gotta
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: make them look like something. And I feel like the
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Mickey Mouse method is most common. But this hot dog
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: is slouching over. He's holding I say he because it
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: seems like that's what again, the gender is antalism of
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: hot dogs.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: People love to gender hot dogs as men and more specifically.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Horny man heenuses, okay, whatever, but the hot dog is
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: louched over. He's also got teeth hat that yeah, I mean,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: so does Frank. And you're like, well, it like you
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: could have a whole thing that There's this amazing video
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: from this YouTuber named Mike's Mike where he breaks down
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: everything about the movie Cars that is like body horror,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: and you could have a very similar video about this.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: But the hot talk statues holding ketch him in one hand,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: mustard and another squeezing it all over on himself and
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: licking his teeth like he's dressing himself to be eaten
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: by you. But he also looks like he's kind of
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: in pain. Oh No, it's disgusting and it's so big.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: And then I looked it up online. It costs like
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: twelve hundred dollars. I'm like, why would you buy this?
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Why would this be in your house? So this is
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: they wanted to put that on the cover of my
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: book and I was like, you can't. You can't do that.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: You can't do that. I'm gonna send you a picture please.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: It's so nasty.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: So this is like just a piece of like decorative
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: art question mark that you can buy and have in
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: your house.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: No, so it's used mostly. I mean I guess you could,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: but it's used mostly in hot dog restaurants. Oh, I see,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: but true. I mean, this thing is being sold for
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: two thousand dollars on eBay and it's disgusting. It's so gross.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: And then in Chicago, what is more common practice is
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: they will break off the arm holding the ketchup bottle.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, because Chicago hot dogs are all about mustard.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: They're all no there, it's well, they're they they're all
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: about a lot of things, but they're more about like,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: no ketchup. I see Okay, are you seeing this? Oh
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: my god, it's it's thank you.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: It's even worse than I was picturing in my head.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: The face is really troubling.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: It's perverse. Also, he's like wearing sneakers and socks and
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: has teeth, and I'm just like, this is too far.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: Wait, I'm just the one I'm seeing. He's like licking
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: his lips. Yes, so it has a tongue.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've seen variants that have teeth. There's a few
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: different variants on this. But and then there's also one
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: that's wrapped in an American flag, because this is so
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: you know, the hot dog is so tied into American jingoism,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: even though it's not an American dish. It's fucking Greek
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: and Polish. But whatever, al right, sorry, sausage party.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: So yeah, we meet all these hot dogs. Also, these
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: hot dogs are not being refrigerated. They're just on a
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: regular ass shelf, nasty next to buns.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I would rather they refrigerate the buns.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: That's fine, Yeah, right, you can do that, you can. Yeah,
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: they last longer probably, but yeah, no, there's just like
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: room temperature hot dogs and we're supposed to be rooting
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: for them. Yeah right, Okay, So the whole thing is
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: that all the food revers humans as gods and they
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: want to be taken out of the store to the
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: quote unquote Great Beyond. Because the food does not know
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: that its purpose is to be eaten. They think that
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: they're going to be taken out of the store and
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: it's going to be this wonderful paradise because the movie
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: is an allegory for religion, and the food believes this
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: dogma about the Great Beyond basically being heaven all this stuff.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is like the beginning of this movie's attempt
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: to make comment on faith, right, I feel was not
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: very well done, but you can tell they're attempting it, yes, right, Yeah, So.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: The main thing with the hot dogs, who again are
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: coded as men, and we'll talk all about the coding
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: and the gender essentralism of all of this, but the
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: hot dogs who are men are excited. The main thing
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: that they're excited about is that they will be put
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: inside the hot dog buns who are coded as women.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: And also coded as sentient vaginas. Right, and well, here's
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: what happens is that the here's the thing for me,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: this is complicated stuff.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: The hot dogs being put inside hot dog buns is
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: this very nuanced, subtle metaphor for heterosex. You probably didn't
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: know that until I explained it, because it's just so
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: subtle or.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: Really subtle, and it's like, let's yeah, let's it's it's
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: really a hetero. And it's also very uh, everything in
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: this on this shelf is uh sis hetero. I'm like, correct,
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: they're fucking hot dogs.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Stop it, stop it? What? Uh yeah? The SCENTI and
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I will say that the design, I mean whatever, animation wise,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: the character design of the hot dogs. I'm not super upset.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I don't love to see teeth inside of a hot dog,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: but I guess it's scarier if there's no teeth, if
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: we're anthrop whatever. The buns, Oh no, inexcusable, bad, bad, bad,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: They're all because I feel like there's all these jokes
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: that have ablest coding to them of like a smooshed bun,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: or like a hot dog that isn't like the correct
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: quote unquote shape or size or whatever, which is not
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: just ablest coded, very very clearly. It's also like, but
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: the regular buns don't look like hot dog buns because
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: regular hot dog buns don't have todays and a big
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: old butt like we talk, and like hot dog bus
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: are not like famously curvy, like what are you talking about? More?
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: And I hate the sideways. Oh they don't have that's
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: so okay. Why does seth Rogen hot dog have teeth?
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Christm wigbun no teeth, Sideway's mouth, no teeth.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: The character design in this movie is just I hate it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the vagina buns I have, really I have,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: it's so hard to look at. Yeah, so, and you're
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: just like, but vaginas are literally beautiful, Wow, why would
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: you do that? And also it's like I don't like
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: it's just all like the fact that I mean, we've
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: talked about this in animation before, where anything remotely woman coded,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: and like we've been talking about this since the Ghostbusters
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: episode where it's like male coded animated characters can look
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: like anything. Women have to have a fucking huge like iftimes,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: like distinct boobs and butt, which is obviously like not
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: knocking anyone who has boobs and butt? Like, whatever, how
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: dare you so? I have boobs and butt? What do
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: you say? I have a butt? I technically have boobs.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: It's fine, Like it's fine, it's body. But like, you know,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: we can't look like anything.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Right, we It's it's a very specific like western beauty
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: standards body shape and size that is ascribed to female
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: characters in animation.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: But Kaitlyn, why why for.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: A hot dog bun?
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: The hot dog is, well, the hot dog, but even
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: by this movie's logic, the hot dog is clearly supposed
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: to be penis coated. Right, it's a sentient thick and
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: it's horny, because that's how we essentialize male sexuality. Right.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: The bun is vagina, But vaginas don't have boobs. It's
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: kind of if that would mean you're so sick if
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: that was happening. I just don't know, Like I just don't, like, yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: vaginas don't have butt.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: They don't have an ass, they don't they don't have titties.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Not to be a woman in stem but they don't.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: But it's like it's so perverse to me that like
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: even just making the character a sentient vagina was not horny. Enough,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: they also had to give the vagina. Yeah, boobs and
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: a butt. It doesn't make sense and it looks horrible.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: It looks like shit.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: It's so cross not knocking the animators. I'm sure that
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: the creatives insisted on this.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the animators aren't designing the characters. No, So whoever
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: was responsible for character design really needs to.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Really, I this movie is like truly chaotic evil on
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: every level, and these things are sort of like occurring
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: to me as we go, like, Wow, they really put
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: boobs and a butt on a vagina. Yes, that is correct.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: We're never gonna be any free. This is just like
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: a nightmare. Yeah, okay.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: So the main bun character who we meet and follow
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: throughout the movie is Brenda voiced by Kristin Wig. She
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: is Frank's girlfriend love Kristin Wig same and the following
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: day is the fourth of July, which means that it's
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: pretty likely that the hot dogs and buns will be
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: taken out of the store to the Great Beyond and
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Frank Brenda will finally get to have sex. Yeah, sure enough,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: Frank's pack of hot dogs and Brenda's pack of buns
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: are selected from the shelf and put into a cart
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: by one of the quote unquote gods aka a woman.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: But before this happens, they have some sort of sexual contact.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: They have touched tips, yeah, which is later used. And
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I saw reviews at this movie that were like, this
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: is the commentary on Christian values, and you're like, shut up,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: they're like that they touch tips, They touch fingertips, right,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: but it's like a sexually coated like yeah, whatever, touch
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: tips fine, which is then used for the rest when
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: things go wrong in the movie. As time goes on,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Brenda thinks that this is because she had any sort
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: of pre marital or like pre whatever.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: She thinks she's being punished by the gods for having
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: pre marital sexual contact with Frank.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Which I guess you could argue comes around in the end,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: but not in a very satisfying way. And it and
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: also just like the way that they're and again I
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: know that this was argued as commentary, but it just
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: it didn't argue with me. Were at the beginning, the
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: hot dogs are just like, we want to fucking fucking fuck,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: and then the bun ladies are like, we want to
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: be loved.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: Me and we went to I wrote it down, it's
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: we went to love and hug and feel and share
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: me via because women be having emotions and men only
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: want to have sex.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Ha ha ha. I mean I want to love and
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: feel and share too, but people of all genders want
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: to love and feel in chair and also people, what
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: the fuck? This movie is so essential as it's so boring.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: I hate it.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: It sucks.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, So Frank and Brenda have been put in a cart. Yeah,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: but there's this jar of honey mustard that had been
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: purchased by mistake and gets returned to the store. So
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: he went out into the quote unquote Great Beyond or
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: the like unknown area beyond the store, write how could you?
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: And then the honey mustard ends up in this woman's
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: cart with Frank and Brenda, and the honey mustard tells
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: everyone what he has discovered about what actually happens in
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: the Great Beyond. It is a hellscape where food is eaten.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: So chaos ensues upon hearing this news, and a bunch
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: of food goes flying out of the cart, including Frank
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and Brenda because they've gotten loose from their packaging. The
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: store closes shortly thereafter, and Frank and Brenda, who are
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: now just sort of like loose in the store. They
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: set off to find other packages that they can sneak
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: into in the hopes that they will still be chosen
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: and taken to the great beyond, although Frank is now
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: skeptical and once more information because what if the honey
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: mustard was right and.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: The honey mustard tells him to go see a bottle
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: of firewater? Yes? And also we haven't brought up because
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know why this is like truly writing wise,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: even if we're just looking at this as writers, I
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: don't know why the character of Douche, that's right, Oh,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the big bat of this movie is called Douche. I
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: don't know why there's like randomly a villain, Like it's
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: not even necessary to the shitty story that's being told
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: for there to be this villain, right, Like the crisis
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: of faith in the Quest is enough. You don't need. Yeah,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: the villain of the movie's named Douche.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and you're never gonna he's about to come.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Up, which I'm like, do they even sell those at
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: the grocery store? I don't know.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: But also it's such a clear indication that this movie
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: was written by men, and all the major creative makers
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: of this movie were men. Because like, and not to
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: make sweeping generalizations here, but I have never known a
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: person who has a vagina to ever use a douche
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: in my entire life. And maybe that's just something that
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: people tend to keep private, but also like me and
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: my friends talk about this stuff all the time, and
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: like you learn at an early age if you have
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: a vagina that.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Douching is not good for you.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: It's like it cause yeast infections, and like my mom, yeah,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: like that's something you learn early on and it's like
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: advised that you don't do it. And so no one
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: I know with a vagina has ever used so a douche.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: But the guys who wrote this movie were like, oh,
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: what's a product that a woman would buy?
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: A douche? I have. Unfortunately, I do have some information
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: on this from what is health dot Gov about dushing,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: So douching is not necessarily uncommon. I will agree with you.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: I have no I've ever known. I've never I mean
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: I've never used one, and I don't know anyone who
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: has because my mom told me when I was young
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: that it is like you're saying, like, Okay, here's some
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: information on douching. Yes, so everyone knows this is from
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: the government. Can we trust them? Duching is washing or
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: cleaning out the vagina with water or other mixtures of fluids.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: In the United States, almost one in five women fifteen
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: to forty four years old. Again, the definition of a
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: woman being very narrow there because it's the fucking government,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: but almost one in five fifteen to forty four years
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: old douche. Doctors recommend that you do not douche. Douching
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: can lead to many health problems, including problems getting pregnant.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Douching is also linked to vaginal infections and sexually transmitted infections.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: So and maybe it's a generational thing where it's like
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: they just people in our generation sort of learned that
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: it was not healthy. But again it's like seth broken
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: is like ten years old, Like it's just it. It
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: is like a lazy and the way that the character
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: it's so clear why they name that, because douche is
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: also like shorthand for an asshole, which is you know,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: it happens all the time where anything vaguely feminine, Like
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: why is it like Michael Sarah says this at one
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: point because he's in this movie where it's like, you know,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: if you're you're anything like feminine coded, there's like a
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: strong meaning too. That's why I'm very pro asshole. It
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: always works as an insult. You mean, yes, yes, it's
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: a great equalizer.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: I've replaced almost everything with like asshole or shithead or
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: something just like very.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Neutral because poo poo, and that's why we're so sophisticated.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: But there's like Michael Sarah's Michael Sarah's character refers to
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: himself as a pussy at one point, which is a
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: classic example of like, you know, a vagina being weak.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: You're like sure, but the same with like douche equals
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: bad because reasons. And the Nick Carl character is like
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: a Jim bro who I think, like you know, would
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: have this, would have douche attributed to him basically right.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: But it's just like, I mean, not that the rest
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: of this movie. I thought that that was like especially
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: not just like more lazy like whatever, but also just
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: like weird writing because I don't think this movie even
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: needs a villain. I don't get it right.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Also, I did not even know what that was supposed
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: to be until the douche identifies himself as a douche
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: because I thought, like, douches aren't packaged that way. So
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: I was like, is that like a toilet brush and
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: it's like toilet brush container. That's what I thought it
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: was at first, because like, I like, I don't think
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: their package douches are packaged that way. Even it's in
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: like a Summer's Eve box and it's discreet anyway, So
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I'm about, yeah, I'm about to introduce the douche character.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: But before that, Brenda and Frank, who again are just
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: like loose and roaming through the store, team up with
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: a few other items that also flew out of the cart,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: a levache named Kareem Abdullah Lavash voiced by David Crumholts
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: aka Bernard the Elf from the Santa Claus.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Another massive betrayal. Huge and this is again I'm like,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't find any information on why this choice was made.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you did. But the fact that
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: like David Crumholt is playing a character who is definitely
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: coded as being Middle Eastern and Muslim, which David Crumholts
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: is not. But David Crumholt is a Jewish Man.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: But the Jewish character aka Sammy Bagel Junior, who is
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: a Bagel Jewish by Edward Norton, like doing a Woody
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: Allen impression the whole time. And if you're wondering if
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: heinous stereotypes are employed here, oh.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean it's it's truly. From what
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: I can tell is that the hot dogs are kind
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: of coded as Protestant Christian Christian white guys. Yeah, and
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: the buns are presented as Christian white girls. And then
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: everyone everyone else in the movie is I guess, with
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: the exception of Douche, is like pretty heavily stereotyped, like
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: a heavily stereotyped culture.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, basically, I mean, and we'll get to
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: this in more detail, but the movie codes most of
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: the food in particular ways, often ascribing a particular race, ethnicity,
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: and or religion to several different food items. And with
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: that comes this just a whole slew of reductive and
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: harmful portrayals of marginalized communities. So that's what we're working with.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, that is most of what the movie
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: relies on. And we again, it's like Kaylin and I
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: discussed this before we started recording, where it's like we
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: will make note of like where these characters appear, but
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: I don't even like, we don't even really want to
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: harp on how deeply offense because it's like because.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: To describe the ways in which the offensive things are
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: happening is just like upsetting to do, and I don't
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: even want to like repeat it.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: So it's a yeah, it's a it's a waste of air,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: but it is worth mentioning what is being done because
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: this was a successful movie fairly recently. It's such a bummer.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So they team up with these couple other characters,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: and then meanwhile, a douche voiced by Nick Kroll becomes
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: a villain because he wants revenge against Frank and Brenda
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: for getting him thrown away and damaged after that chart disaster.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: So there's this random villain. Frank, Brenda and the others
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: make their way through the store. They pass through the
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: liquor aisle because Frank wants to talk to this Bottle
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: of Firewater, who is an indigenous coded character voiced by
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: Bill Hayter Yikes, who seems to know things about the
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Great Beyond and how it might not be all that
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: it's cracked up to. Be Yes and Firewater tells Frank
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: that he and a few other non perishable items in
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: the store.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Who don't worry, are also all wildly stereotyped.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: For sure, they invented the idea of the Great Beyond
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: in order to keep the food happy and unaware of
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: their impending doom. However, they note that it's been distorted
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: along the way, but if Frank wants proof of this,
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: he should go to the arc Aisle be on the ice. Meanwhile,
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: Brenda and the others get tricked by a bottle of
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: tequila who is trying to lead them to the Douche,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: but a hard taco shell Teresa del Taco voiced by
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Salma Hayek saves them. The douche is trying to like
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: attack them, but Brenda and the others get away. Then
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: this is this.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Movie is so evil. This movie is horrid, so evil.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: There was a really good I thought piece in Salon
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: by Nico Lang when this movie first came out that
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: unpacked in particular, how infuriating it is that Salama Hiak's
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: character is written the way she is, not only because
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: it's I mean, because it's like racism and cultural stereotypes
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: on top of sexism, like it's just like a two bunch,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: And Salmahayak has been so historically outspoken about how frustrating
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: it is to be a Latin actor and be treated
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: like this repeatedly. I mean, Samahaiak, a Oscar nominated actor
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: for playing Freda that has to take parts like this,
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: And so I just wanted to share a quick quote
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: from Salamahayak. Yeah, because I love Samahaik and I just
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: really she says, I had things said to me that
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: you would not believe. A studio executive once informed Hayak
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: that she would be a much bigger star had she
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: been born in the United States. He allegedly told her
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: the moment you open your mouth, you remind everyone of
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: their maid. And there was another time. I mean, it's
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: and she's been again. She's been very outspoken about this
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: over the years and still has to take fucking parts
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: like this, which I think is a systemic failure for sure.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Another example she gave over the years was when she
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: was almost in and it wasn't specific about what movie,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: but she was almost the lead in a sci fi
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: film that was being directed by a white guy. But
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: then the executive overruled her casting and forced uh the
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: director to drop Samahayak because they said a Mexican in space.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Then another movie that like isn't even good that you
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: remember that movie grown ups, it's like an Adam Sandler movie.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I didn't see it either, but yeah, I
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: know of it.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: It's very an Adam Stanley movie. But Smahaiak, I guess
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: plays his wife in that movie, and he had to
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: fight for her to get that part. Like it's just
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: like she's Oscar nominated, Like it's she's unbelievably talented, Like
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: there's no need us to tell you how Hyak is
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: fucking awesome, but like, yeah, the way she's treated it
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: in particular, where I'm just like this is just fucking unacceptable.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: And also Samahayak is a good like comedic actor too,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: like if they but they're just like, ah, I hate it.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I hate it. And she's one of the few actors
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: who is cast as like her own race, where there's
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: many where.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: That is not the case because it's mostly white actors
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: voicing non white coded characters.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: I think, with the exception of Craig Robinson and Samahayak,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: that is the case. Bill Hayter as Firewaters. It felt
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: like it was pulling from like the animated Peter Pan
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: from the nineteen fifties portrayal of Indigenous Americans for sure,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: voiced by a white guy.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Bill Hayter also voices Tequila and Elguaco, which are Mexican
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: coded characters.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also coded as being predatory. Yeah. And in
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: addition to this, is also pointed out in Nico Leang's
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: article that we will link is casting the only Indigenous
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: coded character as Firewater.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: As a bottle of liquor.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, I think, pretty clearly mocking alcoholism and
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: indigenous can munities, which is a topic we've discussed in
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: other episodes. And like it's just cruel, Like it's just
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: I it is. It truly blows my mind that any
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: of this was argued as commentary, like that is you're
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: just doing the thing.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: It's such punching down humor dialed up.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: In a way that is like worse than the nineteen fifties.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Like what there, it's it's a lot, I mean, yeah,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: it just really yeah, all right, so back to the movie.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: We then cut to the other hot dogs who remained
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: in the package and went home with that like Woman's Shopper,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: and at the woman's house, Barry watches in horror as
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: food is peeled and chopped up and boiled and melted
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: and eaten. Carl is sliced in half, but Barry survives
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: and escapes. Back in the store, Brenda and the others
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: link back up with Frank, but none of them want
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: to go with him to the Dark Isle because they
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: still believe in the Great Beyond, so Frank has to
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: head to the Dark Isle alone. Back outside of the store,
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: Burry the hot Dog manages to stow away in some
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: dude's car. He thinks he's headed back to shop Wells,
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: but they end up at this guy's apartment where this
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: guy proceeds to do bath salts.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: I think this is the James Franco character. Yes, and
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: also bad I mean no, not, But like this movie
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: is already so dated where it's like, god, I don't know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: like bath salts no longer really a subject of discussion, right.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: It really puts this movie in a particular time in history.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: The two outside of just being straight up offensive, the
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: two things that felt the most dated to me were
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: the references to bat and also like the Jim bro humor,
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: which is I think it was just like done to
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: death and people are fucking tired of it and know
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: it like because that's every everything that comes out of
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Douche's mouth is like, don't fucking leave it, bro, And
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: you're like, right.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: God know if that's just because I'm swiping left on
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: hundreds of men who seem to fit this description on
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: bumble and shit like that, but I feel like that
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: caricature of a of a man is still very much
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: a thing. It didn't that didn't even feel that dated
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: to me, so I decay, Yeah, yeah, it's worse than
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: we feared.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Anyway.
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: Because this dude is on bath salts, he and Barry
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: can understand each other because the drugs enable him to
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: like see if this fourth dimension where he can see
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: the sentient food, And so they talk and the guy
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: promises to return Barry to the grocery store. Back at
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: the store, Brenda, Sammy, and Ravash finally make it to
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: their respective ales and part ways. Meanwhile, Frank reaches the
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: dark isle, which is full of knives and cookwar and
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: a cookbook that shows all of these recipes for preparing food,
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: which is proof that people eat food and that the
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: Great Beyond is a myth. But when Frank shows this
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: to all the other food in the store over a
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: video monitor and loud speaker, he's like, here's the truth,
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: and if you don't believe it, you're a fool. And
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: the food feels insulted, and they're like, this sounds like
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: another theory, and I choose to believe the more pleasant thing.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: So none of the other food gets on board with him.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: Right, which is another sort of like I don't know,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: I guess if you're listening, you feel however you wanted.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: But I was like, this is like sort of another
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: like swipe that is at all religions so broadly as
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: to mean nothing, and also in kind of a way
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: that feels very I can't like it's still like twenty
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: sixteen was a little too late to still be attempting this,
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: but like suggesting like atheism is the only method, the
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: only way to like to freedom of your mind, which
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: just feels a little right. What's his name? Bill? Who's
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: the guy?
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Hmmm?
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, Bill, Bill, Bill fucking the guy on TV.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I'll science guy. No, I don't. I think he's respectful
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: of other people's religions. I hope. No, I'm thinking of Bill,
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: not Bill NYI. And that's what comes from pole him
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: all the time. He's on HBO Bill Maher, Bill, Oh
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: my god, Bill Mahers, who's just like a kind of
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: like fucking asshole who has contempt for anyone that has
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: any sort of faith. That's not to say that faith,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: that religion cannot be extremely repressive, obviously we know that,
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: but it's like it just feels like this and again
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: just a very overly simplistic like, well, if you didn't
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: believe in anything, maybe your life wouldn't suck so much.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: You're like, well that feels a little a little broad
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: Definitely, Yes, this film. It's almost as if this film
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: lacks nuance.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I know, I know. I'm just like we're wasting our time, Like, yeah,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: what are we even doing by Jamie's book? But ya,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: he's by my book. Please buy my book. It's nothing
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: like this. Oh my god.
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: No, there's there's lots more to discuss and the movie
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: is almost over, so yes, Barry shows up after Frank
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: has tried to give this speech about what everyone should
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: believe or should not believe, and Barry's like, no, you
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: can't tell people that they're fools. If they don't believe you,
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: we have to do it a different way. So then
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: they shoot all of the people in the store with
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: toothpicks covered in bath salts. And because bath salts allow
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: the people and food to understand each other, the.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: People like it's the bath salt like a metaphor for
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: like empathy. I don't think they thought about it that hard.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know, you're right, you're right here.
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: But because the people are on bath salts, they start
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: freaking out and destroying the food, which allows the food
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: to see how evil and vicious the humans are that
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: they thought were gods, but they realize are actually monsters,
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: and they realized that Frank was right. So the food
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: fights back against the people. But this is when the
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: douche shows back up and puts himself up a store
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: employees butt and is like puppeting the store employee around
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: while he's holding a gun and trying to shoot the food.
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: But I've been so checked out by this point, as
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: like sure, I was watching it at like two times
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: speed by this point, and I feel like I missed
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: some stuff because I was like, I just need this
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: to end as quickly as possible.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: I watched it twice to prepare, but yeah, the second
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: time I watched it on one point seventy five because
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: I'm just like this. It doesn't make a difference. It's
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: not like I'm ignoring something.
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: There's nothing to take no anyway. Okay, So the villains
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: are trying to kill the food, but Frank and Brenda
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: and Barry defeat the bad guys and they save the
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: food in the store, and then the movie ends with
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: an orgy where all the food is having sex with
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: each other, and then there's another final beat where the
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: bottle of five water is like, by the way, none
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: of us are real, We're a cartoon invented by Seth Rogan.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: So it tries to have this like clever meta ending,
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: but it also falls completely flat and sucks the end.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: And it's also weird that the only they're like which yeah,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: which is like a very easy way to be like, yeah,
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: it was about nothing, right, it was about nothing because
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: it was like even with the ending again just like
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: shitty writing, where like the ending being like, oh now
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: everyone's like having this big food or a gee and
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: it's like not the rigid hetero like but it's still
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: like anytime there's queer sex, it's heavily commented on. And
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: then they even make Brenda Bunson feminist icon, you know,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: sit next to Frank the hot Dog after and say like, well,
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: some like basically say that the queer sexual experience is
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: We're okay, but the best sex was with Frank the
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: hot Dog. Like you're just playing a hot dog? Did
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: you pick that up on that though, where like we
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: do get it, Like again, this is a victory for
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: nobody because again with Samaha playing a taco, that is yeah,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: both racist and sexist vaginas have certainly been referred to
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: as tacos. And it's all like you don't need me
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: to explain this to you in the world, but like,
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: but at the end they do have. Okay, let's start there,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: let's start. Let's start there. Yes, let's take first and
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: then will be right back. Please buy Raw Dog. Okay,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: and we're back, and we're back. Seth Rogen says Raw Dog.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: And I was like, this is bad press, that's blasphemy.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: I've we've reclaimed brad Dog, We've taken it away from him.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: It's not it's not for the hot Dog anymore. But
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: let's start with the story between Brenda and what is
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Sama Hayek's character's.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: Name, Teresa, And just just to contextualize this a bit
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: more before we dive in, which we've already mostly done,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: but just to make it clear that, like, the hot
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: dogs are all coded as men and more specifically penises,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: because there's all these jokes and even like a whole
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: storyline about how Bury the hot dog like feels insecure
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: because he's not as long as the other hot dogs
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: but he is gurthy and like all this stuff. And
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: then the hot dog buns are coded as women slash vaginas,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: but again, like the vagina buns also have boobs.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: The point is it's very.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: Gender essentialist and reductive, and it's basically just saying like, and.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Brenda Bunsen says, I'm so tight, and like it's just like.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: Right, all these like attempts at jokes of how hahaha,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: bond equals vagina, hot dog equals penis, which is like
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: the easiest and most unoriginal joke in the world, And
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: yet the whole movie hinges on this very lazy, obvious
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: joke as if it's some brilliant bit of comedy that
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: no one's ever thought of before and.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: Then on top of that, penis equals ma always man, Ye,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: vagina equals always went like, it's very sis normative as well,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: and it's right.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: So not only is it reducing people to their genitals
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: in a way that means, oh, like men have dicks
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: and because of that, they're so fucking horny and all
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: they want to do is fuck all the time, and
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: reduces women to vaginas, and also like they have feelings
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: because they have vaginas, and it's very transphobic. And yeah,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: just like reducing people to genitals and saying that only
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: you know, to be a man means you have this genitalia.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: To be a woman means you have this genitalia. There's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: no room for anyone on the gender or like intersex spectrum.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: Just like it's just so rigid and binary.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately, it's really difficult to discuss this movie without
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: that constantly being the case. So we apologize if if
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: we sound like we it's just really it's really hard
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: to talk about this movie without feeling like you're aligning
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: with that. Obviously that is not how we align, but
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: this is just like the interior logic of the movie
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: is so fucked and assumes so much that it's it's
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: just like it's very difficult to have this right conversation. Yes,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: please buy rod Dog, but okay, so we have Teresa
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: del Taco, Yes, okay, Del Taco is. You know, if
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: you live in the US, you probably know an American
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: fast food chain. American, but it's like americanized Mexican food,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: so already yeah lazy. But Teresa is I mean, she's
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: a queer character who is immediately interested in Brenda, and
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: like it's like implied that that's why Teresa helps the
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: gang is because she has a thing for Brenda. We
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: see a lot of very like again, you're like, what
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: are we doing here? From Teresa's perspective, we see her
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: constantly looking at Brenda's but like objectifying her. I feel
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: like this movie. And then there is like a scene
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: where again it's just like not like Brenda is I
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: think like a queer character because she says when she
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: and Teresa go their separate ways, like basically says like
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: I'm interested, but but.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: This religion we believe in.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: It would be against god right to have, which I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: think think is like again, the attempt that this movie
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: is making to be like religion is so oppressive. And
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: then at the end it comes around and everyone has
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: a big orgy and you know, Teresa and Brent dadu
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: have sex, or it's implied that everyone kind of has
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: sex with everyone. But I do think and like, the
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: way that queerness is treated in this movie is obviously bad,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: oh for sure. Okay, well to the point where there's
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: a broad stereotype that isn't even like current. I'm like,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: how old are you? People? Like, we're very but like
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: the entire fruit section of the grocery store is queer
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: coded and mostly queer coded as men, yeah, gay men
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: and yeah. So just again, because this movie is so
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: gender essentialist, there is no real in between in terms
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: of the gender spectrum, and we see queer men even
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: though it's I feel like this was a time where
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: it was like, well, any representation, you should be thrilled
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: that we included this. I'm acknowledging, can you exist?
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: And that's good enough.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: Where there's already I mean, it's so unshocking that they
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: were working on this movie since two thousand and eight,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: because this feels more twenty eight than twenty sixteen, for sure,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: but that was when it was released, so you know,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: fuck you, but the like there's a fair amount of
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: no homoing oh between hot dogs so much. But then
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: when there are queer men, they're treated differently from queer women,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: which I know, again is essentialist, but it's something we've
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: talked about before, where when they're queer women, it's very
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: like ooh, this is sexy, this is leering, this is
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and then when it's queer men, it's
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: like funny and like it's I don't even I don't
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: even really know what word to describe how because at
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: the end, Sammy Bagel Junior and Kareem Abdul Levache hilarious
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: by the way, I have sex, the Bagel says he
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: has a boner. I'm like, well, I understand why you
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: haven't attempted to show it, because what does that even mean?
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: What does that mean? What that look like? Yeah, doesn't
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: make sense, but those characters are so offensive and like, okay,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: so anyways, I thought it was interesting that Brenda and
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: Teresa are like acknowledged to be queer by the plot,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: but like it's just so everything is so halfway because
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: even like their interest in each other is still treated
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: in a clearly written by straight men perspective.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: Lazy, yeah, mostly played as a joke, nothing interesting or
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: meaningful being done with it. Yeah, so yeah, which is
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: also what happens with uh. And again we touched on this,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: and it's not worth going into the details the specific
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: examples because they're so upsetting, but just the racism, xenophobia,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: anti Islam, anti Semitic also like and it's so.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: Well that and yeah, that's that's the one. We talked
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: about this a little bit as well, where that's I
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: think the one. I'm curious what are our Jewish listeners think,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: but they're like, that feels like the only the only
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: subject on which this group of writers has any leeway
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: on because the story and the original like concept of
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: this movie is by Seth Rogen, Evan Goldberg, and Jonah Hill,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: who are all Jewish writers. And you know, I still
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: think this movie sucks no matter what, but I do
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: want to acknowledge that there is a pretty well storied
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: history of Jewish writers poking at tropes surrounding Jewish characters
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: and also surrounding Nazism, which this movie also does. There
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: is president for that. It's obviously done way better by
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: artists like mel Brooks and like, I but I that's
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: the only where I I don't know where to land
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: on that because I'm not Jewish and I don't want to.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, we talked about this on the Borat episode
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: as well. Yes, yes, on the is that a Matreon episode? Gosh,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: I've lost all track of what is where?
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think that it was when we covered Borat
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: on the Matreon where it is like we did that.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: I can't I mean feminist masterpiece, it was said. But
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: in any case, I, uh, yeah, I don't want to,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: you know, come down on the side of like Jewish
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: writers cannot make any commentary on Jewish history in the
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: form of a comedy. There's plenty of it. I just
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: personally don't think anything is well done in this movie, right,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: But that's the one thing that I'm like, well, I
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: don't really feel qualified to have a take on on that.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: I feel the same, however, we would be curious to
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: know what our Jewish listeners think. I mean, it's just like,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: I just can't believe anyone liked this movie. It's so
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: confusing to me. I wanted to quote a Lindy West
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: piece that's also mentioned in this Nico Lang piece. You
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: gotta love Lindy West. She said this back in twenty twelve,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: where basically in the press tour for this movie, as
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: we've alluded to, the writers would say like, oh, this
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: is equal opportunity, like offensiveness, Like we know that it's
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: broad stereotypes, like, but it's with everyone. I think that
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: that and that's sort of where they're poking at Jewish
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: stereotypes come in, where they're like, we're doing it to ourselves.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: Too cool if we do it to everybody. So that
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: is sort of the acknowledged ethos of how this movie
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: was put together. It's like we're not exempt, so you're
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: not exempt. So this is from a Lindy West essay
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: for Jezebel in twenty twelve. She says, quote, the problem
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: is that all people are not equal in positions of power,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: which is true because it's like these guys are making
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: the movie like they're There is is one listed producer
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: who is a woman, Megan Allison, who is, if I
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: were to guess what, is probably involved mostly in the
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: in the animated portion because she works at Annapurna where
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: the animation took place, which we'll get to in a second.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like there were any women that had
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: any say in you know, how this was made. Nor
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: were there any Muslim writers, nor were there any Mexican writers,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: nor were their indigenous writers, nor were their black writers,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: and on and on and on and on and on.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: It was just these guys. So that logic does not
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: it doesn't hold.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: Up, does it doesn't work work? And and if they
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: were actually like poking fun at everyone, because these these
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: filmmakers are only poking fun at already marginalized people and
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: not like commenting on fucking billionaires and racists and like
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: people who should actually be which which is like criticized
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: for their behavior, and.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Not that that's the duty of any like of all movies.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: You can have movies that are not like you know,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: explicitly anti capitalist and all this stuff. And this movie
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: is trying to say something about religion, but it's just yeah,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: like as far as the stereotypes are deployed, it seems
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: like just for shock value, Like definitely it has nothing
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: to really do with the larger plot, which is like
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: basically incoherent to me. It's just like it's mean, and
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: it's lazy, and it's and it's it's a bit evil, definitely,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: and I read god, I read, I read an example again,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: read an example that so Evan Goldberg and seth Rogen
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: also said that they consulted friends to make sure their
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: equal opportunity offensiveness wasn't just plain offensive. Carmichael, who is
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: not in this movie, but he's in neighbors another seth
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Rogen joint of this area, Drod Carmichael, told BuzzFeed that
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: Goldberg would come to him to vet the movies more
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: problematic content. Is this racist? Goldberg inquired on more than
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: one occasion, and then Nico Lang says, in an industry
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: where people of color continued to be stereotyped and shut out,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: it seems that if Goldberg had to ask, he already
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: knew the answer, which I think is an excellent point
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: and it probably very true. I don't even want to
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: say what it was going to be. But the Craig
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: Robinson character, who is called mister Grits, which Jesus Christ,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: was originally going to be even more offensive. And the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: original version of the Craig Robinson character, which was just
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: explicitly anti black like, tested very very poorly, and there
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: was at the movie's original premiere someone I guess confronted
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: Zeth Rogan about it and was like, you can't fucking
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: do this, dude, Like this is disgusting. But that's the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: only change that I saw an example of being changed.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: Everything else stayed as is, which again it's like what
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: if someone hadn't said something, and it's.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: Like and and that would just be out in the world.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, not that what is out, not that mystery,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: but Ris is doing anything, Like.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: It's just mean Levache, Like all of the every character
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: fucking fire every I mean, it's like, there's no there's
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: no like except for this character, which makes a ton
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: of sense, Like no, no, pinous because you brought up
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: Lyndy West, who is an activist against fat shaming and
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: fat phobia.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: And so just famously one of my favorite writers.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: Oh she's terrific. It just reminded me of how much
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: fat shaming there is in this movie, where like the
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: other food characters are fat shaming. Brenda the Bun another
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: character I forget who it is, but says that people
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: like humans are to blame for getting fat because of
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: all the all the food they consume. Just like all
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: this like horrible fat phobic rhetoric.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just bullshit like everything, like basically every word
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: and this movie is bullshit and all and also like
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: it upholds obviously, it upholds all of like all of everything,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: but even in a way that like I don't understand
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: because it's it's like, this is a movie written by
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: Jewish writers who are going with their ethos of what
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: they say they're doing. We're not exempt either, but the
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: main character seems like he's coded as like a white Christian,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: so it's like, right, so it seems like, oh, well,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: the white Christian hero fucking cis hot dog guy is
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: still the most curious of everyone and like finds the
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: truth and unites every culture. And it's like that's like,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: what is what are you doing? That's all movies like,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: that's like fucking I I I don't, I don't know,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: I like it. Obviously this movie makes no sense.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: Uh. Well, to piggyback on that, there's there's classic sexism
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: happening with that too, because again, Frank is this character
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: who's like, wait a minute, I'm a skeptic. Now I
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: have to seek the truth, you literally, Bill Maher. Yeah,
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: he sets out to make the documentary religulous, you know,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: and he's like, what's going on? But Brenda, his girlfriend,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: refuses to listen to Frank about the possibility that the
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: great Beyond might not be real. And yes, he is
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: being very condescending and patronizing while he talks about it.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: But one of the few female characters in the movie
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: is presented as being irrational and overly driven by her emotions.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: And again, he's interested in seeking the truth. She's just like,
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna, you know, blindly follow what I already believe.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to interrogate anything. And then she tries
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: to like make him jealous. When he's like, well, I
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: can't even have a rational conversation with you, She's like, oh, yeah,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: well I'm gonna go fuck a pickle.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: And it's just like, well, it's like also that there.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: This is like because they're like still in their package
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: that's supposed to be this really like sophisticated metaphor for
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: Virginia purity, but it's still more like so but you know,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: by the hot dog, but blah blah blah, like it's
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: still more emphasized in the female coded uh, Like it's
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: more important that the buns are never been used than
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: the hot dogs. Which is ridiculous.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is gross. Also there's all this like
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: male gaze ye animation slash cinematography again, Oh my god.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: The shot where dude's just talking about like I can't
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: wait to get inside this woman. Guarantee, these writers do
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: not know how any of this would actually go. But
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: there's this like leering shot of like a cartoon while vagina,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: and you're like, why, yeah, why why why why we
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: already have like oh, in case the vagina buns that
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: also have boobs and butts weren't enough for you, like
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: got you, got you? Yeah?
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's gross. Uh. I want to talk about
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: the production and animation, Yes, specifically the way that animators
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: were treated on this movie. I'm pulling from a couple
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: of different sources. One is a Washington Post piece, one
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: is a screen Rent piece. So there was this Q
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: and a published on an animation news website called.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: Cartoon Brew cartoon ber Rocks.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: And so there's a Q and a with the two
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: directors of this movie, Greg Tiernan and Conrad Vernon, And
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: the comments section of this Q and a basically turned
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: in who the animators commenting anonymously complaining about the working
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: conditions on the movie, and so like that's kind of
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: how this information came to be a public information. So
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: the animators complained about director Greg Tiernan, who runs the
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: animation company Nitrogen, who handled the animation for Sausage Party.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: He runs it with his wife Nicole Stin.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: Also, unfortunately, we do have to claim that Sausage Party
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: is Shrekian in that Conrad Vernon, one of the co
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: directors on feminist masterpiece Shrek two.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, really quite Shrekian.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: Sorry to interrupt your very important discussion of labor rights,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: but no, it's it's It's.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: Also true it's important to know when a show.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: When Shrek's when Shreks go wrong. Okay, but this is
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: a very fascinating thing that has can I feel like
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: it's a more popular discussion now, this seems like a
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: more early example of it.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, So the animators were complaining that mister Greg would
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: have enraged outbursts. There was a lot of micromanagement of
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: the animators and most despicably, a lot of labor that
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: went unpaid because animators were forced to work overtime and
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: would not be paid for it. Yes, I'll quote an
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: excerpt from the Washington post piece. The production costs were
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: kept low because Greg would demand people work overtime for free.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: If you wouldn't work late for free, your work would
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: be assigned to someone who would stay late or come
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: in on the weekend. Some artists were even threatened with
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: termination and for not staying late to hit a deadline.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: So basically, animators, if they wanted to keep their job,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 3: were forced to work over time for free. If they refused,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: they would potentially be fired. Many animators who worked on
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: the movie were not credited as having worked on the
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: movie because many of them quit because of the horrible
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: working conditions before the movie was finished, and anyone who
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: quit was not credited even though they worked on the
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: movie for like over a year. Also, when animators tried
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: to quit and like put in their notice, executives at
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: Nitrogen would threaten to damage their reputations, which like is
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: a pretty big deal because like getting blacklisted in this
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: industry is a real concern. Like if you get blacklisted,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: like it is really hard to.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: Fuck your career and they know that permanently.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, Like yeah, So the animators were just like treated
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: horribly and because the animation was happening in Vancouver, and
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: Nitrogen is a Vancouver based company, which is like outside
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: of the jurisdiction and protections of the Animation Guild in
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: the US, they like weren't protected. I did read that. Eventually,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: when Annapurna, which was like the production company that financed
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: the movie, learned about all of this like labor mistreatment,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: they stepped in. They made sure the animators were paid
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: for their overtime, and they were like they made sure
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: that the animators were being fed because a lot of
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: them had to work these late hours in an area
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: that was like difficult to get food, and so they
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: like unless they brought their own food, they would have
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: to work with like.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: No access to food.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: And like it's pretty standard for like especially on like
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: film sets, for the production of the movie, to feed
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: the cast and crew. Like it's not people's responsibility who
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: work on a on a production to feed themselves.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: So this is so, like, this is I've I'm very i'mried.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: I don't because you said you remember hearing about this
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: time at the time. I didn't know about this at
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: the time, just because I love I mean, I work
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: in animation. I love animation, and this is so this
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: is like so I mean labor disputes are typical across entertainment,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: across everywhere, but like in animation specifically, it is like
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: improved so little over the years that I'm glad that
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: there was a settlement, but I'm also like, there's no
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: excuse for someone as powerful as this group of filmmakers
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: to accept making this a non union project like that
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: is absolutely unacceptable. You can't treat your workers that way,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: and the reason you do is to save money and
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: to mistreat them because like you're saying, like this, this happens, this,
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: this has happened on animation shows that I've worked on,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: and I've only ever worked as a writer. But even so,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: it's like there's just still such an issue with how
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: animation is treated within entertainment. Not that there aren't major
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: labor issues in live action as well, but the unions
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: in live action tend to be a little stronger where
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: you have SAG that represents uh animation performers as well,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: but not as often the WGA, who are it seems
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: about to strike and I'm very thrilled, but the WGA
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: still doesn't recognize most animation writers as writers that deserve
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: union protections, like ridiculous it blows. Like I love to
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: fucking run my mouth about this, but I've worked on
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: six television shows, but I'm not in the WGA because
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: I write in animation. It's ridiculous and like some are
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: fucking high budget, Like why does writing on Star Trek
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: not qualify you for the WGA. It's fucking ridiculous, and
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: it's there is very in animators, especially, I mean this
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: goes back to like Walt Disney union busting animators, like
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: during the production of like Pinocchio, Like this has been
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: going back.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: This has been going on in animation forever, getting back
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: to the Pinocchio Wars.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: Sorry, oh my god, I still have PTSD from the
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: Pinocchio Wars. But like there there's you know, animators have
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: had to repeatedly strike and still have I would say,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: generally less protections than their live action counterparts, which is ridiculous,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: especially because animation has grown only more popular and more
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: widely like every audience. It's it's like it was like, oh,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: you make Kitty TV, like you don't do it, which
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: is also ridiculous. But now it's like there's animation across
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: the board. There's no reason that they shouldn't be treated equally.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: It pisses me off, and I'm glad that they got
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: a settlement, but it's just like it's so transparent where
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: and this we like sort of talked about this a
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: little earlier, but how I think that like a similar
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: dispute that you see right now is going on with
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: the effects workers who work on Marvel movies, where there's
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: only so many production houses that do this. They're desperate
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: to stay in the good favor of Disney and Marvel.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: It's always fucking Disney with this stuff. They want to
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: stay in the good graces of these huge contracts, and
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: so they'll work people to death and then like there
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: this was an issue with a director I generally like,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: but Taiko yit when the last I didn't see it.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: When his last Marvel movie came out, he was like
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: making fun of how the effects looked in interviews, which
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: prompted employees to be like, you didn't like, Marvel did
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: not give us the money or the time to finish
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: this fucking movie. How dare you like? It's ridiculous? He
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: sucked thor Love and Thunder was like, I didn't see it.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's like I was like Oh, well,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: you can't always trust rotten tomatoes. But I did trust
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: Rotten Tomatoes on that one. Then I didn't see it. Yeah,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: but yeah, it's just animation and effects. Workers are historically
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: treated like shit, and it's so like there's no there's
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: no excuse for anyone to do it, but particularly people
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: who are this powerful and have have access to the resources.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: It's not like we're an indie company and like we
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: can only give you this much, which isn't acceptable either,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: but at least there's some context for it. There's no
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: reason that this that a production of this level needed
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: to mistreat their workers so much, and that sucks because
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: then everyone had to work on sausage party like Okay, Well,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: if you want to read more about labor rights in
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: the meat packing industry and also then you should pick
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: up a new book. It's out now. It's called Raw Dog.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: I learned a lot about how meat packing employees as
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: well as animals are soverely mistreated in the process. Where
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: most grocery store hot dogs like frank are made. Also
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: do some discussion of vegan hot dogs of kosher hot dogs.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: They're so the world of hot dogs is expansive. It's fast, fast,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: and vast and much, you might even say, and much
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: like the animation workers' rights have not improved by very
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: much over the last one hundred years. So that's fucking sick.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: We love that. We love that.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: Do you have anything else you want to say about
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: sausage Party?
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: No, me either, it passes, it passes the vectl as
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't matter.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: It doesn't matter. And the way women interact with each other,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: which is not often because again there's only really two
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: there's one major female character in Brenda, and then there's
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: a more minor character in Teresa. Other than that, any
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 3: female coded characters have like maybe a line or two,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: and even that's rare, So most of the characters we
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: meet are male coded, so there's really very little interaction
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: between women. Although Brenda and Theresa do pass the Bechdel
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 3: test because they talk about their sexual urges for each other.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: So right, and sure it counts, I count.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: But but but the way that women or like female
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: coded characters interact with each other outside of that is
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: like a lot of like the buns will be calling
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: each other disparaging like sexist words like oh you bitch,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: oh you skank, stuff like that.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we referenced this. But I guess the
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: only other thing I have to say is the ableism
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: that's present in the Michael Sarah character, and also that
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: they suggest that he is disabled in some way and
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: that the only way that he could find a partner
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: is to find another disabled partner, which how that plays
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: out in the end, which is just I mean, like
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: it feels worth me. I don't even want to get
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: into it really because it's just so fucked and ugly.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: And this this movie is I agree with letterboxed. This
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: movie is is evil. Yeah, I don't I don't want
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: to say another word about this movie. No nipples, don't
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: I would say negative five nipples and it's like a
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: special lea their negative five.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: This movie is evil.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: The last thing I'll say about it is it's especially
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: frustrating to me when there there's a movie that's attempting
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 3: to make commentary on some kind of like societal or
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: cultural thing, because it is attempting to say things like
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: having blind faith in a deity can be dangerous, or
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: which sure, attaching shame to sexuality and making people feel
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: shame if they have sex, like quote unquote out of wedlock,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: or if they have sexual feelings toward someone of their
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: same gender, the way that a lot of religions do
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: you know, saying that that's wrong, or taking a religious
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: text and distorting it to push your own agenda of
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: prejudice and oppression, that's bad. Yeah, I agree with those things,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: but for the movie to try to make those claims
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: and then turn around and put every reductive trope in
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: existence into the movie and punch down to so many
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: groups of marginalized people. Do you even hear yourself sausage party?
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: Anyway? This movie sucks.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 3: I hate it. Negative five nipples and buy Jamie's book.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: Please buy my book Raw Dog. By changing lattist we're
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: gonna put we'll put the link for where you can
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: buy it. I prefer to use bookshop dot org. That
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: will automatically link you to the closest independent bookstore that
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: you can order it from and habit shipped from that
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: is carrying the book. And please tell your friends. It's
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: really helpful and I'm very proud of it. And also
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: if you live in the cities, let's see if I
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: remember of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Austin, Portland, Oregon, Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, Chicago,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: and somewhere in Connecticut called the Mark Twain House. Those
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: are the eighth places I will be going to promote
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: the book. There will be events and we will link
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: tickets as well because I will be leaving this week,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: so please please come.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: Out indeed and all the regular stuff. You can follow
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: us on Twitter and Instagram. You can go to our
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: Patreon aka Patreon and get access to two bonus episodes
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: every month, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: This month of May is my birthday and we are
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: doing Office Space and redoing Back to the Future because
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: our first Back to the Future episode has audio quality
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: that is not great and we have one of my
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: favorite movies, so I want to just do an updated
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: version of the episode.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: You can check out our merch at teapublic dot com
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: slash the Bechdel Cast if you are interested, grab a
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: little merch and hope to see you. Hope to see
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: you on the road soon. Love you, bye bye.