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Steph & Laura's Podcast Rebrand Fail Despite Shameless Backing · Outspoken the Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Outspoken.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's your dose of the hottest influencer and pop culture
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: news twice a week.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I'm Amy Torber. I'm Kate Torber. And I'm Sophie Torber.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: And coming up on today's show, Sam Wood is denied
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: bail for a second time. But first, Steph Clare-Smith and
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Laura Henshaw's podcast rebrand with Shameless Media is creating waves.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Just a month into the partnership, the popular influencers have
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: been slammed for their controversial takes, with some long-term fans
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: threatening to hit unfollow. Okay, it was only recently that
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: we were excitedly discussing how Shameless Media would transform Steph
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: and Laura's podcast. I can't say that we anticipated this. No,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: it's very surprising the turn that this partnership has taken.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: With Shameless Media's team at the helm of production, I
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: was expecting the content to go up a level. However,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: this reboot has been heavily criticized and it's pretty ironic
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: because we were all hoping Shameless Media's producers would be
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: able to get Laura to be a bit more authentic
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: and speak without countless caveats.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: And now look what's happened. Maybe they needed those caveats.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I think the caveats are still there on popular opinion,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: but I think that they have felt more confident to
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: share their opinions.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: And it seems like some of their opinions have been
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: quite unpopular.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't expect them to have such polarizing opinions, particularly
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: in the parenting space. In their defense, when you do
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: share an opinion in the parenting space, it can always
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: be quite polarizing. The thing is, though, these opinions that
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: they've been sharing really seem to go against the personal
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: brands that they have presented for so many years now.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: And I think that's where the issue is lying. And
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: it just hasn't been a one-off either. each week there's
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: been a topic or take that hasn't landed. And it
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: all started week one of their rebrand. So if you
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: guys remember, listeners were left scratching their heads when Laura
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: and Steph said that women were simply insecure if they
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: had issues with their husbands liking other women's photos on Instagram.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: The context there was Steph was talking about her husband, Josh,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: being caught out liking other girls' photos on Instagram.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: A lot of them were lingerie models.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: And she was saying that she wasn't bothered by it
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: because She knows how attracted he is to her.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Now, that opinion did not land well. Not a popular one.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: No. Then came the daycare discussion. So Steph and Laura
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: dedicated an entire episode of their parenting podcast to critique
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: American psychoanalyst Dr.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Erica Commissar's viral views on daycare. If you're not familiar
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: with Dr.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Erica, she is a clinical social worker and psychoanalyst who
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: has spent decades working in the field of child development, attachment,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: and maternal mental health. And in a now viral interview
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: on the diary of a CEO, she spoke about why
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: she doesn't like daycare.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: You're not a fan of daycare, are you?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: No.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: What's wrong with daycare?
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: Daycare raises salivary cortisol levels in children. The studies show,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: meaning those babies are put into stressful states at a
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: very young age when their brains are developing. Daycare has
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: been known to increase aggression and anxiety and behavioral problems
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: in the school years. And those children are more likely
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: to develop attachment disorders. Those first three years when children
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: are so very fragile and vulnerable, taking them away from
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: your body as a primary attachment figure and handing them
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: over to strangers and leaving them there for hours on
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: end will cause your child to have to develop pathological defenses.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: And that's what those children are forced to do.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Now, despite this interview being a year old, it only
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: just hit Laura's algorithm. And I'm assuming this is because
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: she has recently put her nine-month-old son into daycare.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: The algorithm does you dirty like that, doesn't it?
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: From the get-go, though, it was pretty clear that Dr.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Erica's research had really rattled Laura, which is totally understandable.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of parents felt the same after
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: hearing it.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Disappointingly, though.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Rather than discussing Dr. Erica's findings with nuance, Laura and
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Steph instead dismissed her research as simply another parenting opinion.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: They then went on to frame the conversation around mum guilt.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: And bear in mind, the position Dr. Erica has shared
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: is based on peer-reviewed research. At one point, they even
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: labelled her position as fear-mongering and rage-baiting. I found myself
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: tisking throughout this podcast because I just found it really
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: strange for two women who present themselves as feminists. to
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: be denigrating Erica's work and essentially saying that they didn't
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: like the tone it was delivered in. And it sounds
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: like it was because it was from a female. And
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: they were really undermining the years of research that she's done.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: And it's quite ironic because Dr. Erica's whole stick is
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: that this information is the inconvenient truth.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: And that's how it felt to them.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: It felt like they were sort of saying, oh, I
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: only like to listen to experts who essentially agree with
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: me and what I want to do. I also feel
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: like there were parts of Erica's interview that were conveniently
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: left out. Like The way they framed it was as
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: if Erica was being really sexist towards women and acting
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: as if all women should just stay at home and
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you can't do your job and you can't do this
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: when in actual fact Erica has spoken out about how
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: she navigated looking after her children while also undertaking her
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: successful career and she gave different steps on how people
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: can achieve that if that is something that they.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Wish to do.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I mean the whole conversation was just so strange to
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: me because there are so many other inconvenient truths to
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: come out of research regarding people's health and But it
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean we just dismiss those as opinions because they
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: don't suit us.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: And also, if you'd never heard Dr.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Erica speak before, the way that Steph and Laura were
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: addressing her was as if she had absolutely no credentials,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: that she was just some opinionated person on the internet
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: that was speaking just based on her personal opinion, which
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: is absolutely incorrect.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: This is based off evidence.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: I actually wondered if Steph and Laura had listened to
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: the whole interview or they just based the whole discussion
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: on one viral clip because that's what it sounded like.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: It was quite interesting when Steph brought up the fact
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: that a couple of her close friends had actually changed
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: their whole parenting philosophy after listening to that interview with
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Erica on Diary of a CEO and how it had
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: caused some friction in her friendship group. It seemed like
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Steph and Laura were personally quite riled up by the research.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: And I totally understand because if you are starting to
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: put your child into daycare and then you're hearing these opinions.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: That are confronting.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: It is confronting to hear some of the stuff that
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: she has to say. But at the end of the day,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I don't think you denigrate someone's work because it's making
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: you reflect and maybe rethink your decision.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the crux of it.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: And I feel like Laura and Steph really missed the
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: whole point in that the reason Dr. Erica shares her
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: research is because she believes parents deserve access to it,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: even if it makes people feel uncomfortable. So it does
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: spark a really good discussion, but I would have preferred
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: to hear something about, okay, the reality is majority of
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: parents put their children in daycare, but what can we
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: potentially do that changes that? Like think outside of putting
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: all the blame on parents. Can governments be helping in
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: this regard? There are a number of countries in Europe
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: which offer parents up to three years of parental leave,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: and within that there's job protection. So that could have
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: been a more interesting conversation to discuss, as you said, Kate.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: What can the government be.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Doing to help more parents be able to spend that
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: quality time at home with their kids? Or are there
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: other options like other family members stepping in and helping out?
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: And there has been a lot of chat about the
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: government potentially giving subsidies to grandparents to look after their
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: grandchildren rather than putting them into childcare. So there are
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of other avenues which could have been discussed. Well,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: it turns out Steph and Laura's audience weren't happy with
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: the conversation either. The backlash was swift. The vast majority
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: disagreed with Steph and Laura's take and argued that no
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: matter how they frame it, it doesn't change the facts.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Like the conversation we just had, many pointed out that Dr.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Erica wasn't simply talking from personal experience, but from research.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: And others urged Steph and Laura to explore the guilt
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: that they were feeling. One person wrote, disappointing to see
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: two women that are so influential reframe Erica's factual information
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: so poorly. Just because it doesn't feel good to hear
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's not true. Another added, I've followed you
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: both for years, so I say this with respect. This
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: take was really disappointing and I think it could do
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: real harm.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: The backlash didn't stop there.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: The following week, Steph and Laura were forced to delete
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: another TikTok that missed the mark. In the contentious clip,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Laura hit out at Dylan Sprouse, who is the former
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: child star married to Victoria's Secret's angel, Barbara Palvin. Now,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the pair were discussing Barbara walking the runway six weeks
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: postpartum when the conversation turned to a viral clip of
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Dylan gushing about how beautiful his wife is. And this
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: clip has been widely celebrated. But Laura appeared to have
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: a real issue with it. She went on quite a
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: personal rant about how low the bar is for men. Now,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: this was not well received on socials and resulted in
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: the clip being taken down. That brings us to the
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: latest episode where Steph and Laura shared their thoughts on
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: the rise of male doulas. Now, this conversation was sparked
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: off the back of an article from The Cut. Now,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: that hook led to the women also sharing their thoughts
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: on male obstetricians and gynecologists where they said this.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't want a male obstetrician. Same.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: I think, and I had so many of my friends,
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: in fact, more of my friends than not had male
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: obstetricians and haven't had a bad thing to say.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Like they loved their experience.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: But honestly, I think even when I think to my
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: childhood and like GPs that I've had, I've had bad
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: experiences with male doctors where I just like haven't felt
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: as like comfortable as a female doctor.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: And so I think that kind of came into mind
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: when it came to picking an obstetrician. And I think
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: I would look at a doula in a similar light
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: in that it's probably who I would just feel most
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: comfortable to be most vulnerable around.
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: In terms of obstetrician, I 100% wanted a female obstetrician.
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: For me, it was really– and I'm trying to think, like,
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: if the woman had a baby or not, if that
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: would have made a big difference I think it would
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: have been my preference for my obstetrician to have had
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: a child as in like having gone through pregnancy, et cetera. Yeah.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: But it was more.
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: Important to me that they were a woman.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: It's tricky.
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: Like obviously there are amazing male obstetricians out there, but
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: they don't have the lived experience.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Now, this section of the podcast was clipped up and
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: posted on social media with text on the screen that said,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: why Steph and Laura didn't want male OBs. And the
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: caption read, we polled our community and 56% of women
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: said they would also prefer a female obstetrician. Now, this
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: backlash was immediate. Out of almost 300 comments, 95% came
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: out in defense of male doctors. It actually attracted commentary
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: from medical professionals as well as high-profile health workers.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Peter Jersevec was among several male obstetricians who commented. He wrote,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: with your enormous reach comes enormous responsibility. I completely respect choice. Interestingly,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: gender doesn't determine empathy and empathy doesn't choose a side.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Compassion comes from someone who cares and work ethics, skill, knowledge,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: lived experience are the traits I would want if my
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: life depended on it. Now, his comment got over 800 likes.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Podcaster Victoria Devine and influencer Beck Lomaz also added their thoughts,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: praising their male obstetrician, Scott Shemmer. Former Bachelor contestant Irina
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Serbainaska wrote, As a healthcare worker, I see this differently.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I care for male patients every day, and not having
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: lived experiences of being male doesn't affect my ability to
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: care for them. Reducing someone's value to their lived experience
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: or biology undersells what medical and healthcare training is actually about.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I also had a male obstetrician and couldn't fault my experience.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, it's a personal choice.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Find someone who makes you feel comfortable, who listens and
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: who provides the best care. Podcaster Britt Hockley also added
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: her thoughts underneath Irina's comment. She wrote, in the healthcare industry,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: 13 years, and I agree with this.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I found it really.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Interesting to see the podcasters who were weighing in on this.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: You've got As you said, Kate Victoria Devine from She's
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: On The Money, Britt Hockley from Life Uncut.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Do you feel there's almost a.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Personal element here that, you know, they're in competition with Shameless,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: so they're having a bit of a dig or? I mean,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: you may have a point there. I was surprised to
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: see Victoria Devine's name pop up. I've only ever seen
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: her leaving glowing comments directed at Steph and Laura. And
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I think she's been a guest at their events before.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Not to say that means she can't comment on what
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: they're doing. Well, someone else in the industry who weighed
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: in was radio presenter Ash London. She wrote Let's remember
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: that not everybody in Australia has the financial means to
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: choose their healthcare providers. I wonder if this conversation is
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: helpful to a first-time mother who rocks up to her
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: first OB appointment for a high-risk pregnancy or even rocks
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: up to give birth in the public health system and
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: a qualified male walks in. I thought that this was
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: such a good point because to be honest, when I
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: heard Laura and Steph's discussion, I was like, hold on,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: who was my OB?
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Because I went through the public.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: System and I only met my OB once on the
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: morning that I was giving birth. Because if your pregnancy
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: is low risk, you may never routinely meet your OB.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: And if you have an uncomplicated pregnancy, it's midwives and
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: GPs who care for you. So I was like, wow,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: there is a certain level of privilege that comes with
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: being able to select the gender of your obstitution.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I think that they didn't.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Realize that there is a level of privilege with selecting
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: the gender of your OB and that's not something that
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: everyone gets to do.
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: And when you consider that the whole conversation was sparked
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: off the back of whether you would have a male doula,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, what percentage of the population could afford a doula?
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Well, Laura had a doula, she revealed.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: She had a doula that came to her house, I
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: think in the first couple of weeks, twice a week.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: And then as it went on once a week and they.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Would cook her meals and Again, I was listening to
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: that thinking like, what the fuck?
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I wonder how much that cost.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: As soon as I heard the topic for discussion on
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: their podcast was whether you felt comfortable having a male doula,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I was like, what are they thinking? Why are you
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: trying to spark this gender debate? And then when it
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: led on to obstetricians and gynecologists, I was like, am
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I hearing this correctly? You kind of got the feeling
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: watching that clip that they were like, oh, we're on
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: to something. You know, they looked really like pleased with
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: this opinion that they were sharing about male obstetricians. And
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I think it was because they felt backed up by
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: their community initially, because ahead of the podcast, they polled
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: their listeners asking, would you choose to have a male
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: doula or not? And it was something like 99% of
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: the listeners said they would not feel comfortable having a
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: male doula. So I don't think that they realize that
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: there's quite a difference between a doula and a medical professional.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: I felt quite uncomfortable watching the clip back because Laura
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: does have quite a smug look on her face.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: She's really nodding.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And you can tell, as you said, that they think
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that they've really got a good take. And that was
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: not what everyone thought. So Steph and Laura's loyal listeners
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: were very unimpressed. One follower wrote, I think there are
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of us who've rooted for you both for
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: years and years, but are recently feeling uncomfortable watching. Now,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Steph ended up responding to the backlash, writing in the
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: comments section, So many incredibly valid comments here. Just wanted
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: to say, as I mentioned in the pod and even
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: in this clip, I've heard so many positive experiences with
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: male OBs. This was purely a discussion between us as
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: to why we personally went in the direction we did.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: We weren't trying to create a divide. We were sharing
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: our personal experiences and opinions. whilst also acknowledging others have
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: had a different one. Just a reminder that you won't
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: always agree with us and that is okay. We've received
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: some DMs from community stating that they're noting the comment
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: sections on our pages and honestly everywhere at the moment
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: are beginning to get so hostile that they don't feel
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: comfortable sharing their opinion publicly anymore if it's not aligned
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: with the loudest comments. Please always feel free to share
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: your stories and your opinions, but be mindful of the
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: tone in which you do so. because it can come
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: across as dismissive. I mean, essentially what she's saying there is, hey,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who agree with us, but
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: they're too scared to write their opinions.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I was pretty surprised by Steph's comment.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: It came across as very dismissive to all of the
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: medical professionals who took the time to respond and say, hey,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: this is why you've missed the mark. I mean, they
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: were very polite in the way they said this to
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Steph and Laura. If it had been me, I don't
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: think I would have been so polite. I think one
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: of the comments that bothered me the most during this
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: segment was both Steph and Laura saying that they essentially
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: didn't want to have an OB who hadn't given birth before. And,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: you know, they only trust experts who have had that
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: lived experience. You know, as someone pointed out in the
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: comment section, in order to be a cardiologist, you have
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: to have had heart attack. Like it's just such an
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: idiotic comment.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I just don't understand how this topic made it to air.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is so off brand for Steph and Laura,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Laura in particular, because she has become the face of
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: calling out inequality and taking on the manosphere. So for
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: her to sit so confidently on a podcast and essentially
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: say that a male is incapable of performing a professional
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: role because he doesn't have a lived experience of being
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: female is absolutely baffling to me. Can you imagine if
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: the role was reversed and someone said that about a female?
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: The mind absolutely boggles.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, they also went on to say that they
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: would prefer if the female doctor had children herself so
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: she knew what they were going through during labor. The
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: thing that I was shouting out during listening to this was,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: but there's so many different ways to give birth. So
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: if you as a female doctor have had one child
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: and both times given birth by a C-section, how do
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: you know the lived experience of someone who's giving a
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: vaginal birth?
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Or vice versa. It's just ridiculous.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And I think what confused me most about this whole
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: thing is that it's Shameless Media's production team behind all
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: of these changes to the podcast. Because when the licensing
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: deal was announced, there was a bit of confusion around
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: what it meant. And at the time, Shameless Media explained
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: that while Steph and Laura would still own their own show...
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Shameless Media's production team would now curate the podcast episodes
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: as well as represent the show to advertisers. They even said,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Steph and Laura will bring their hosting flair and incredible
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: audience to us and we will work with them on
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: this next era of content. So I think we were
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: all expecting, as I said at the start of this episode,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: for their content to be taken up a notch. What
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I want to know is, is this bad production or
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: are Steph and Laura not executing the discussions properly as hosts?
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: As someone who has consumed a lot of the Kick
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Pods content prior to this rebrand, it's not particularly surprising
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: to me that this is the outcome because I think
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: that they have always lacked a bit of nuance when
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: speaking about media topics. It's often ended up with them
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: just swearing to try and prove a point. And as
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: we've touched on, constant caveats, which are annoying to listen to.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: But I think what's different here is that their conversations
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: are being pushed out to a much broader audience and Well,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: that's because of the backing of Shameless. Now they're on
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: the Shameless Media Network. They are being pushed out to
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: a lot more people. When Shameless announced that they had
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: acquired the Kick podcast and they'd be having Steph and
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Laura move over as these big personalities to their network,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: there was so much excitement. And I think that people
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: who potentially hadn't heard of Steph and Laura before were
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: really eager to tune in and hear their takes on
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: these big topics. And they're feeling a little bit let
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: down and confused because as to why they've been pumped
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: up so much.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: And I think it's fair to say that Shameless Media's
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: podcasts are quite renowned for having intelligent conversations that are
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: built around analysis. They don't just simply rely on the
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: host's personality and how many followers that they have. So
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: as you touched on, Soph, I think Shameless Media's audience
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: expected intelligent, nuanced conversations, which hasn't been the bread and
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: butter of the kick pod or kick bump. I think
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: what made those podcasts good was that it wasn't overly polished.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: The podcast were for fans of Steph and Laura who
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: wanted to find out more about their day-to-day life.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: And their views on parenting.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I actually much preferred the Kick Bump podcast when they
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: literally just spoke about their highs and lows of the week.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: It was really easy listening.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I wonder how Steph and Laura are feeling about all
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: of this because from what I understand, it's Shameless Media's
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: job to come up with the content ideas. I don't
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: know how much say Steph and Laura have in it.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: But they talk about production meetings that they have. So
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: you've got a whole team of producers who thought it
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: was appropriate to debate whether male doulas and male obstetricians
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: and male gynecologists were any good. And then you have
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Stephan Morris speak on it and they share their views,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: which are very anti-male health professionals. You then have post-production
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: where those views are edited and clipped up on social media.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: At no point did anyone say, I think this take
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: is off. And I don't think we should put it out.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: It kind of reminded me of what happened with Shameless
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Media's podcast, Stylish, back in March.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: We spoke about it in depth.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: The host received a lot of backlash after they disagreed
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: with content creator Tamsyn Wong. So she had done a
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: think piece on personal style and taste. And it all
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: kicked off under a social media clip from the discussion.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: And they were quite.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Dismissive of her. They kind of mocked her. And at
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: the time, Michelle Andrews came out and spoke about the
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: difficulty of condensing a nuanced conversation into a 90-second clip
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: for social media. I think it's fair to say, and
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: we said it at the time, that that clip that
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: was put out by Stylish actually did represent the tone
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: of that conversation in that it was quite aggressive. And likewise,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I think Steph and Laura's conversation wasn't taken out of
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: context in those cutdowns that appeared.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: On social media.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: No.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: I'm just wondering where to now.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Do Shameless Media go back to the drawing board and
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: do they convert back to what Steph and Laura's podcast
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: used to be like before the rebrand? Or are we
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: going to see them continue to have divisive conversations? I
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: think there will be some difficult conversations happening behind the scenes,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: particularly because the Shameless Media team, as in Michelle and Zara,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: seem to be quite close friends with Laura and Steph.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: And that is an awkward situation to be in when
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the podcast isn't doing well. I do want to say, though,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: sometimes controversy does result in more listeners and more success.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: I think when you have an opinion-based podcast, it's good
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: to have an opinion. But in this case, maybe they
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: need to present both sides of the opinion. I get
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: where you're coming from, but this issue is unique in
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: that Stefan and Laura both have their personal brands, which
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: they make money from, and then they also have their
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: fitness empire.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: And at the moment.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: A lot of contradiction is going on between the personal brand,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the podcast, and now their fitness empire.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: It always has, though. Not like this, though.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I think only in the last year have we seen
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: cracks begin to appear in that facade. Sam Wood is
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: set to appeal his bail decision after two failed attempts
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: at freedom. The former Bachelor contestant has been held on
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: remand since his arrest in early October for allegedly assaulting
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and strangling his wife, Snejana Wood. Now, Kate, it was
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: this time last week that the Supreme Court denied Sam's
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: second bail attempt. During that hearing, new chilling details of
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: the case emerged. Yeah, it's become even clearer why Sam
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: and his legal team were trying so desperately to block
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: media from the court files. Last Friday, the court heard
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: that Sam allegedly told his wife and stepdaughter, Eve, that
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: they could die during the incident in Noosa. Now, it's
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: alleged an argument broke out between Sam, Snez and Eve.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: As things escalated, it's claimed Snez stood between Sam and
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: her daughter. At this point, it's alleged Sam pushed Snez
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: into a bedroom door before closing the door behind the pair.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Eve alleges she heard her mother's voice become muffled and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: gasping sounds. Now, Snez backed up her daughter's claims, alleging
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Sam grabbed her by the throat and choked her, as
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: well as repeatedly banged her head against the floor and wall.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Sam denies these allegations. Now, during this hearing, more details
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: emerged about an alleged prior assault. So prosecutors say police
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: were called to Sam and Snez's Victorian home in 2021
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: after Sam allegedly threw Snez against a wall and strangled her. Now,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Snez never made a police complaint at the time because
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: she was allegedly afraid of retaliation, but she has provided
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: photographs of her alleged injuries. I think what's really confronting
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: about this fresh information is if it's true, It shows
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: that this violence has been happening behind closed doors for
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: a considerable amount of time. Yeah, when this alleged second
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: incident was brought up to the court, I think a
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: lot of people assumed it would have happened more recently.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: But as you said, if this is true, it's been
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: five years between those two incidences. Now, in a further
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: blow to Sam's bail request, prosecutors also raised concerns over
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: his alleged drug and alcohol use. Now, Sam's barrister acknowledged
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: these allegations, but claimed Sam wasn't an addict and was
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: capable of complying with the bail conditions. I mean, this
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: comes in stark contrast to the image that Sam Wood
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: has put out there for the past 10 years of
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: him being a fitness guru and living a very wholesome
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: life as a dad of four. Yeah, I mean, if
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: these allegations, again, are true, it just goes to show
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: you really can't believe what you see on social media. Now,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: it's quite interesting because Sam has a new barrister going
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: into bat for him. He dropped his lawyer, Matthew Cuskelley,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: in favour of barrister Paula Moreau. It's not really surprising
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: after Cuskelley's very insensitive comments. So he said at Sam's
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: first bail hearing that Sam's career had taken a hell
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: of a beating. And of course, I don't have to
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: point out how insensitive that is during a domestic violence case.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: That quote was picked up all over the media and
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: reported everywhere. Now, she has a strong background in criminal law,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: human rights and appeals. And she's also used to defending
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: high profile clients. So she actually represented Amber Heard when
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: she was accused of illegally bringing her dogs into Australia.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Can you believe that that was 10 years ago? Well,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: over 10 years ago now. That just feels like the
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: other day.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that isn't right.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I genuinely thought it was in like 2019, 2020 around COVID.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: That has stolen a lot of time from us, hasn't it,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: that period? Yeah, it really has.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: It's ironic that that was the year that Sam and
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Snez both met on The Bachelor and Now, Paula confirmed
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: that the couple's marriage is over, saying they are expected
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to separate. And she used the breakdown of the marriage
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: to argue that Sam wouldn't be living with Snez if
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: released on bail. So that risk of conflict could be
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: managed by keeping them apart. She also told the court
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that the couple's relationship was suffering and there were significant
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: stresses and more frequent confrontations. Now, while she acknowledged that
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Sam struggled with anger and irritation.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: She.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Said that when arguments occurred, he would usually leave and
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: take some time away rather than continue the confrontation. Now,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: what is particularly significant about the court's decision to reject
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Sam's bail is that his family offered a $ 1 million
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: surety to secure his release. Now, along with that $ 1 million,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: his defense proposed he would move to Tasmania and live
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: with his father, report to the police three times a week,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: attend a men's behavior change program, and stay away from SNES.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Despite all of this though, the judge still decided the
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: conditions weren't enough to minimize the risk he posed to others.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And this decision really demonstrates just how seriously the court
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: is treating this case. I want to point out that
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: $ 1 million is an extremely substantial amount to offer as
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: a bail surety. So it's clear that Sam and his
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: team were throwing absolutely everything at this bid.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: It's quite interesting because Sam could.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Have offered up his own money for bail, but I
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: think his lawyers may have advised him against it because
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: a family surety adds an additional deterrent for Sam because
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't just be risking his own money, but potentially
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: a family member's security.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: But couldn't he just give his family a million dollars anyway?
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Well, the thing is you don't actually have to present
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the money up front. So as you say, he could
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: later down the track, but I just think that it's
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: interesting that he didn't put up his own money. Maybe
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: they wanted to demonstrate that his family was supporting him
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: as well. Well, his dad has made it very clear
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: that he's standing by his son. He has been present
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: at these court hearings. Now, as we mentioned at the
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: start of this segment, Sam has now appealed the Supreme
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Court's decision to deny him bail. He's taken the matter
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: to Queensland's Court of Appeal. Now, as for the basis
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: of this appeal, Sam's legal team are set to argue
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: that not enough consideration was given to how long he
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: could spend in prison before his trial. They're also claiming
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: that the judge failed to consider whether the proposed bail
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: conditions would reduce the risk of re-offending and failed to
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: give reasons for why they would not. This appeal could
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: actually be heard as soon as today. Even if Sam
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: loses the appeal, his legal team could make another bail application.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: They would need to demonstrate that something has changed though
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: since the last decision. I mean, he is a man
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: with a lot of cash on his side and he'd
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: be spending a lot of money on legal fees currently.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: But again, he's pretty lucky that he's in a position
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: where he can do so. Yeah, not a lot of
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: others could be throwing this amount of cash at this situation.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: So far, it has not helped him though. It will
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: be very interesting to see what happens in this upcoming appeal. Well,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: that is where we're going to leave things today. Thank
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: you so much again for listening to Outspoken. If you
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: do enjoy the show.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: We would love it if you could please leave us
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: a review.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And if you want to hear more from us, we
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: drop a bonus episode of Outspoken every Thursday for Outspoken +.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: subscribers all the details to sign up are in our
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: show notes this podcast was recorded on the traditional land
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of the ghana people of the adelaide plains we pay
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: respect to elders past and present