Latest / Business Roundtable / The Dynamics of Power: Exploring Leadership Strategies with the 48 Laws of Power

Transcript

The Dynamics of Power: Exploring Leadership Strategies with the 48 Laws of Power · Business Roundtable

0:01
Welcome back everybody the Business Roundtable podcast where we have some returning guests. My
0:07
name is David Carr, your host and facilitator. Here. We have got
0:12
a great topic tonight for those of you have checking in for the first time.
0:17
We'll do brief introductions and we're going to jump into our topic of power
0:22
tonight, which we've kind of referenced and talked about in previous episodes. So
0:26
again, David Carr here of Stuard your business where I'm here rooting for you
0:31
and your team, helping you be the most intelligent leader and making sure that
0:34
your teams are coming together to accomplish great things. We have Bill hatchback with
0:39
us. Welcome Bill, thank you. Glad to be back. Making it
0:45
through school here and working on papers and all sorts of things. Yeah,
0:50
working on one of two final papers in one class and starting the first of
0:56
two weeks of overlap with my next class. Yes, but the school decided
1:03
that for some reason they thought it was a good idea to have overlapping weeks
1:07
during the summer term. Yeah. Miss oh my goodness. Glad to have
1:19
you back. Bill and Doxy welcome, Thank you. Glad to be here.
1:23
Always. I enjoy these Wednesday's talks. You know, get a chance
1:29
to not only learn something new, but figure out that you don't sometimes know
1:34
what you're thinking of. Right, I enjoy it. Yeah. No,
1:38
we're so glad, glad to have you back. And it was your idea.
1:42
I think, you know, you suggested this book, which I have
1:46
in front of me here, that we're going to get into, the forty
1:48
eight Laws of Power by Robert Green. So this has been an interesting concept
1:55
because we've talked about power, and we've talked about boundaries and how we're leading
2:01
and how you show up as a leader, and so I thought it would
2:06
be good. I have the book in front of me, and I'm just
2:07
going to read that first paragraph, uh doc C of just this preface,
2:13
and we're going to get into more about what power is a little bit.
2:17
But I think I'm super excited about this conversation. We'll see how far we
2:22
get in this episode. This is definitely the one you guys want to listen
2:24
to and come back to because we're gonna have many more episodes I foresee on
2:29
this topic. But the book here in the preface actually just starts with this
2:36
paragraph. I'm just going to read real briefly here, but the feeling of
2:38
having no power over people at events is generally unbearable to us. When we
2:43
feel helpless, we feel miserable. No one wants less power. Everybody wants
2:50
more in the world today, However, it's dangerous to seem too power hungry,
2:55
to be too over with your power moves. We have to we have
3:00
to seem fair, have to seem fair and decent. So we need subtle,
3:06
congenial, yet cunning democrat uh democratic and yet devious. So that's it's
3:13
getting this preface of how we have to be now that it's going to go
3:15
into greater detail here, and I'm really gonna enjoy hearing you, Doxy uh
3:22
lead us through this discussion of I mean, this preface of power. I
3:27
guess it. You know everybody wants power or how how does that show up?
3:30
So I'm gonna throw it to you, Doxy, to kind of lead
3:34
us in here in our discussion tonight. Absolutely. And you know the reason
3:38
why I picked this particular topic and I like to talk about it is that
3:46
you know, whether you're an eight to five employee looking to move up to
3:51
management ranks and even move up and even higher, you you really have to
3:55
understand how these uh prety laws of power that mister Green of course did a
4:03
lot of extensive research on on how the human mind works, and it's quite
4:12
fascinating. And what we'll do tonight is kind of go through uh each law
4:17
one by one. I know that we're probably not going to get to the
4:20
forty eight laws because there's so much information in each law that we will actually
4:28
discuss. If that's all right with YouTube gentlemen, Oh yeah, yeah,
4:31
I mean I agree. When I looked at all these titles, uh uh
4:36
doxy, I just there's like, well these are these are There's a lot
4:40
to these and I think there's a preface of like how do you use power?
4:45
And there's some great concepts just here on the preface alone that we're going
4:48
to pick apart. But Bill, what about you? What do you hear
4:50
this idea of power? Is that a good thing? Negd bad thing?
4:56
What? What's your what's your thoughts? Initially, as we're like power is
5:00
power is really a tool like like most others. And it's not so much
5:09
how you you know, it's not so much the thing itself, but in
5:13
what you do with it. If I hit somebody's thumb with a hammer,
5:16
that tool is bad. Yeah, but but if I hit the nail on
5:21
the head, then then that tool did its job well. So uh so
5:28
yeah, So it's it's definitely possible to use power well in such a way
5:33
that that that you can do that you can do good with it. Mm
5:39
hmm, right, you know, yeah, I was just gonna say,
5:44
you know, Bill, it's it's interesting about what this topic, and of
5:47
course that I'm kind of uh, kind of feeling off of what we talked
5:54
You talked about earlier about your courses that you take. Now, if you
5:58
think about that, who has the power you or your college that you're taking
6:03
these courses? If I want what they've got Exactly that is exactly the point
6:14
of these laws is because who really has the power? You know? I
6:18
went through there, and David, you went through colleges and I get to
6:24
doctorates and and they all, each and every one of them had the power.
6:29
Because I needed to get what I wanted out of that. And so
6:34
there's some things that I had to learn along the way, and which is
6:38
connected to this these forty eight laws of power, which we're going to address.
6:42
So and if you guys are ready to go. Well when it started?
6:46
Yeah, yeah, I quite. I do a question for you as
6:48
we're jumping in here, because I think you made a point bill and it
6:51
talks about that in here in the in the preference that power is essentially eight
6:57
a more. Well, we'll get doxy back disconnected for a minute. You
7:00
just said that bill that that it's kind of immoral. It's not good or
7:09
bad, right, it's just how you're using that power. Yeah, right,
7:13
yeah, I think so, you know, uh, you know,
7:17
like well, politics is a is a great example, you know of of
7:23
people using their their power, trying to get power for whatever their purposes are.
7:30
And of course, uh, the vast majority of people who get into
7:33
politics are are getting into it because they want to do what they feel is
7:41
right, you know, and best for for for the most people. And
7:47
of course the problem with politics is that we all disagree with each other on
7:51
what's best. And yeah, so yeah, I'm very intrigued, uh uh
8:01
doxy on how we look at this and how we quote unquote play the game
8:07
of power. And some people say, why I'm not a player, but
8:11
in reality, everybody is a player. Like you said, what do you
8:13
want? Who has the power. Right, we're all in this in some
8:16
some way tape or form exactly. Can can you hear me? Okay?
8:20
Yeah, you're good, You're good. We lost you for a moment,
8:22
but you're what happened, you know what, You're absolutely correct, And that's
8:28
for the purpose of what we're going through, is that you have to understand,
8:33
you have to be able to leave yourself in and out of this these
8:37
uh, these laws that we are actually talking about. So let's let's dive
8:41
right into it. Let's okay to low number one, okay, which is
8:50
never It says never outshine the master, and of course, and I'm gonna
8:56
I'm gonna talk a little bit about that and then see what you guys think
8:58
about it. You know, it basically says that make your masters, whoever
9:05
they are, which of course is your boss and whatnot, but appear more
9:09
brilliant than they are. Never, never outshine them. Always put them,
9:18
you know, up above you. And that's our mistakes. Sometimes it will
9:24
be actually don't want to do that. So what are your thoughts, Bill,
9:30
I'll start with you never outshine the master? Well, my first thought
9:37
when when I saw that one was the twenty eighth rule of acquisition. It
9:41
never hurts you to suck up to the boss. Yeah, no, obviously
9:50
that's a Star Trek reference for those who don't know. And now I've outed
9:54
myself as a complete and utter nerd, but but really it kind of some
10:03
of it going through going through the list of the laws and uh and trying
10:07
to learn a little bit about them. And it kind of made me think
10:09
about that a little bit, that, you know, because in in Star
10:13
Trek, the Frankie who used the rules of acquisition are there to accumulate power
10:20
and wealth, primarily wealth. But but yeah, and uh, you know,
10:26
they obviously aren't concerned with the with the good of other people, which
10:35
you know can certainly, uh can certainly change whether or not power is a
10:39
good or a bad thing, you know. But but yeah, you know,
10:46
always always make those who who are above you feel comfortable, you know,
10:52
with you that you're not there to replace them. Of course, I
10:58
totally believe that that everybody should be endeavoring to make themselves not irreplaceable, but
11:09
indispensable, and uh, and the going the opposite way there definitely can go
11:16
a long way to making one uncomfortable with those around you. And so so
11:22
yeah, so if you've got if you've got a leader, if you've got
11:26
a boss who who doesn't want to be replaced, who's worried about being replaced,
11:31
then you definitely need to you definitely need to follow this law, follow
11:37
this law power. Yeah, David, what do you what do you think?
11:41
Yeah, I've got the book in front of me, and I'm just
11:45
looking at that and and he talks about just that point, Bill, what
11:48
you're talking about where he says that there are masters who are more insecure than
11:54
others. So there's a big insecurity there by that person. They're going to
11:58
be threatened by you. And sometimes I found that I may not even I
12:03
mean in invertently, not purposely like out trying. I'm just trying to do
12:07
my job. I remember working at the County of Riverside many years ago and
12:11
I'm like, hey, keep it down, You're you're doing too many things.
12:15
I'm like, I didn't even realize, like you're trying to like and
12:18
I was like, interesting, So there's a there was a hierarchy there and
12:22
a certain things and I wasn't I wasn't trying to outshine them, but there
12:26
was Are you clued into what you're saying, Bill, are you clued into
12:31
somebody's insecurities or where they fit in there, or can you provide reassurance and
12:37
understanding where they're coming from, what they're dealing with perhaps and say hey,
12:41
I'm coming here to support you and actually shine together, right versus them feeling
12:48
inferior like, oh my goodness, this person's trying to position and take my
12:52
make my role, overtake me kind of a thing. And so that idea
12:56
of never outshining your master, and the other thing I thought was really interesting
13:01
here in the in the book, he said, just because your master loves
13:05
you or you maybe you have a boss that really cares for you, and
13:07
like that too, that you can do anything you want. Either you just
13:11
can't just keep going like oh I can just get away with anything like no,
13:13
no, You've got to be make sure you're not, you know,
13:18
putting them in a in a bad light because the way you're trying to go
13:22
after certain things. So those are a couple of things that jumped out at
13:24
me. Doxy. Yeah, it's it's really fascinating, and it kind of
13:30
what you touched on a little bit you gave it is kind of jumping into
13:35
to long number two. But before we do get any last thoughts on long
13:39
number one, Bill, well, you know we should. Yeah, it's
13:48
I just keep coming back to uh, indispensable versus irreplaceable. You know,
13:54
most people don't think that if they're irreplaceable, they can't be promoted, they
13:58
can't go anywhere, and certainly not up and uh, but being into ful
14:07
to a company is a completely different thing. That means they can't afford to
14:11
get rid of you. It doesn't mean that they have to keep you in
14:13
the same position. And uh. And if you're comfortable with being replaceable,
14:20
then you're comfortable with training those who are under you, you know. So
14:26
it's really easy to figure out if your if your master, as it were,
14:33
is comfortable with being replaced because they're training you to do their job and
14:37
so so yeah, so so keep an eye out for that. That's a
14:43
good that's a good point. And you know, David, you mentioned something
14:46
I'll tell you, and this is what I tell of people that are working
14:50
the eight to five looking for management and even their culture. You have to
14:54
find a way to make yourself so valuable that they can't get rid of you.
15:01
If they do get rid of you, guess what you become their competition
15:05
and that's what you do. So when you understand this law number one,
15:09
Yeah, you don't want to outshine the master. However, you want to
15:15
make yourself so valuable that the master himself or herself can't get rid of me.
15:22
Oh man, doctor Curtis, you just just struck a mind as you
15:28
said that, because I was talking to a client today and we're talking about
15:33
like teaming agreements and coming together. Right where you're you're going after certain work
15:37
right now, there's a certain prime contractor there's a subcontractors. To your very
15:41
point, you cannot outshine the prime if they're the they're the fronting it.
15:46
How do you come together unify support that that that prime. If you try
15:50
to overtake or it's it doesn't work well because there's a hierarchy that you have
15:54
to understand that and how how everybody's and how everybody is. It's like kind
15:58
of the position on the team. If everyone tries to be the quarterback or
16:03
everybody tries to be the wide receiver, nobody wins. It's like okay,
16:07
you know, trying to grab the glory, right, It's like, okay,
16:10
let's where is our position? How do we support each other and you
16:15
know understanding that and I just I just as you said that, that really
16:22
struck to me as a real applicable thing here those those are listening here on
16:25
the Business round Table podcast. Is that you know we're trying to help you
16:29
get use these and understand these laws so you can be effective in leading your
16:33
company, leading your team. So great observation. All right, let's jump
16:38
into number two. Now, when years ago, when I when I read
16:41
this book, number two, I was I was kind of taken back by
16:48
it a little bit. But because I and then I then I understood it
16:52
and rolla or a lot of Number two says, never put too much trust
16:56
in friends. Learn how to use your enemies. Now, let me read
17:03
this part says hire a former enemy and he will be more loyal than a
17:11
friend because he has more to prove your sheep. In fact, you have
17:18
more to fear from friends than from enemies. If you have no enemies,
17:26
find him. And what's really interesting to me is that as I looked at
17:34
that, and even looked at old friends, new friends, people I graduated
17:41
from high school or college, whatever, it dawned on me that more of
17:48
my friends developed more shall I say in the or jealousy of even the success
17:56
or lack thereof, because we all fight struggles with the word success. But
18:03
and and the enemies that I thought I had became more of my assets to
18:11
grow my business. And that's just my personal note. What I've noticed about
18:17
this long number two. It is very effective if you understand that your enemy
18:25
is going to help you more so than your friend. Your thoughts on that,
18:29
dude, man, interesting that Yeah, I think my initial response is
18:37
the same as yours as I hear this, oxye, and I'm I'm and
18:41
I am processing that. You know, there's a thing about working situations and
18:51
and that I think that's what I'm reading here and understanding a little bit is
18:55
like it says like keep friends for friendship, but work with your skilled and
19:00
work with the skills and the competence. So sometimes again, like those enemies,
19:06
they're the quote unquote enemies that they're they're they're they're trying to be very
19:11
highly skilled and adept at trying to get doing these things right. Because if
19:15
they are truly the enemy, if you're at war, we lost oxy again,
19:18
won't get them back in a minute. But I'm thinking if is this
19:25
is This is an interesting concept because you're trying to get that highly skilled,
19:32
and I maybe sports is a good analogy. Like if you're playing right Bill,
19:34
somebody that is another team player on the opposite team that's super good,
19:41
probably want them on my team, you know, versus a friend from the
19:45
stands or something that is not that say playing the game like I am playing
19:49
right right. Well, I think I think the key on this one is
19:56
too much never put It's not never put trust in friends. It's never put
20:00
too much trust in friends, you know. And I've I've heard it put
20:07
another way as never trust an honest man. Yeah, okay, that that
20:17
honest people. You you can't trust them because they're there. They must be
20:22
hiding something, you know, but you know, uh, you know,
20:30
but but a dishonest man is always lying to and so you can at least
20:36
trust that. Yeah. It's it's so counter counterintuitive when I when I when
20:45
I I read this chapter and I think about it. But I think as
20:48
as I'm looking at this, you know, there's these gives examples throughout this
20:56
book of you know, one of them, I'm just pulling up. It
21:00
says in nineteen seventy one, during the Vietnam War, Henry Kissinger was a
21:04
target of an unsuccessful kidnapping at tim and and it talks about, you know,
21:12
his whole experience there with these kidnappers and how how you know how they
21:21
were plotting here and understanding that whole process of these enemies trying to get them,
21:26
like how do they figure this out? How do they you know they
21:32
obviously wasn't accessful, but you're trying to understand. Oh man, these guys
21:34
are really smart in how to do this stuff, you know. So it
21:45
does definitely cause me to think and pause and think about like, oh man,
21:49
how is this you know? True? Because again it's like when you
21:56
read it from the beginning, when you read this law never to put too
22:00
much in trusted friends, you're like, don't I trust like my friends?
22:03
I don't know how to trust my friends. But learn learn how to use
22:07
enemies. And it's interesting that I think the language use them. It doesn't
22:11
mean they're your friends enemies, they are not your friends. It just means
22:14
that you're that you may be using them to help you, right, right,
22:21
And maybe if if different terms were used, like never put too much
22:30
trust and allies learn how to use opponents. Yeah, maybe something along those
22:36
lines might be a little more palatable. But another thought I'd had on that
22:41
is sometimes friends take you for granted. It's a great way to ruin a
22:45
friendship. But but yeah, when you when you trust your friends, they
22:51
they might too much. They might just take you for granted. And uh
22:57
and take you for all all your words, you know, absolutely, yeah,
23:03
I mean anyway, as I was saying, back in my younger days,
23:08
this would have been back in the nineties, and I had a re
23:14
interviewed a roommate and everybody thought he was a great guy and we had a
23:18
lot in common and uh, and long story short, he ended up taking
23:25
me for three grand oh man, because I trusted him too much. It
23:30
wasn't in cash, it was it was primarily in bills that that he ended
23:34
up leaving me with when he when he moved out of the house. So
23:41
I do a question for doc C because one of the things here and you
23:45
you got guy guide businesses as I do, like on hiring or bringing in
23:49
key people, and one of them says, you know, it says,
23:55
when you decide to hire a friend, you gradually discover the qualities. Here
23:59
she has kept hit so, like you know, we've heard the pitfalls of
24:02
like hiring friends right in the business. Right. Here's my home take in
24:10
summary of this particular law is it's really not so much about friends or enemies.
24:18
Really, it's really it's how an individual can judge who is best,
24:27
whether it is a friend or an enemy able to further your interests in the
24:34
company or in a situation. That's how I look at this law. But
24:42
Bill made a point on the friendship and that sometimes friendship it's hard to differentiate
24:49
between we're friends or business because there's a big difference between the two. And
24:56
that's why sometimes I even tell people you know your friends as friendship, that's
25:02
great, but work with the people that are skilled. And David, you
25:07
mentioned stuffing about, you know, used sports analogy, and that's really really
25:12
true because in sports there is a goal, and the goal is I don't
25:18
care, just do your job. I'm not your friend. I remember reading
25:25
an article about the Chicago Bulls, Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, and Dennis
25:30
Rodman. I actually played basketball against Dennis Rodman. And one of the things
25:37
that I learned in that article and what I studying the Bulls is that those
25:44
three they weren't friends. They never even talked to any one another off the
25:48
court at all. I don't know if anybody did that, but they they
25:53
did. What this law number two is all about, and that is how
26:00
that individual is going to carry on my interest, and that is to win
26:04
a championship. Mm hmm yeah thought really really, if you if you look
26:12
at things, uh, everyone is at their core selfish, self cher,
26:19
self serving, you know. And the only uh in in ethics, it's
26:26
called egoism. And uh and the the only, the only, the only
26:33
thing that you can get beyond that. And I actually ruined an ethics class
26:37
once because because I proved that there was nothing but egoists in the world.
26:42
But is the enlightened egoist, And that's the egoist who understand that, in
26:48
general, the well being of another person or other people is actually in their
26:56
best interest the whole, the whole, the old saying of a rising tide
27:02
can lift all can lift all boats, you know. And uh so yeah,
27:10
we're all we're all essentially out for ourselves whatever whatever our ethical platform happens
27:15
to be. No, No, that's an excellent point, though, I
27:18
mean, that's that's exactly why you we're going through this because because to understand
27:26
this idea of power. But you're absolutely right, you can't do anything by
27:30
yourself, period. You need help. And and how you do that is
27:36
really understand these laws of power, Understand culture, understand ethics, all those
27:40
things that you mentioned. Is really you're you're gathering tools. Those that are
27:45
that are listening to this, you know this podcast, is you're gathering tools
27:51
to better your career, because yes, we are self centered, selfish people,
27:56
period. Any last thoughts dating before we go to number three. No,
28:00
I'm excited to actually jump into number three. I think, yeah,
28:03
yeah, it's and and you know Bill touched a little bit about it.
28:08
Oh no, we lost him again. We keep losing. We keep for
28:14
some reason. Uh, we keep losing Curtis. We've had a weird connection
28:21
tonight and we're getting right into law three. Conceal attention and conceal your intentions.
28:32
Very Yeah, this sounded very military to me, you know, with
28:37
the there is in fact there we just we just had to we just had
28:41
to wait and announce it, announce it for you and yeah, tell you
28:45
what I don't know what is? So you now yours? Yeah, and
28:51
conceal your intentions. Yes, yes, okay, so you know, kind
28:56
of paraphrasing what this is all about, decoyed objects and desires and red hearings
29:04
to throw people off the scent of what you're actually trying to do. Hide
29:11
your intentions, not by closing up, okay, but by talking endlessly about
29:18
your desires and goals. I was really kind of interested in this when I
29:25
first saw it myself, Bill, what's your thoughts on concealing your intentions to
29:30
graduate from college? Well, it doesn't really, It really doesn't make any
29:41
sense to conceal that particular intention, because that's true. You know, I
29:47
can't imagine anybody being against me doing that, But but I could see somebody
29:56
using one's intention to say a book series against them, or take that idea
30:03
from them, or you know, or or foul up your plans because they
30:11
don't want you to succeed, because your success means their failure, at least
30:15
in their minds, you know. But yeah, as I was about to
30:19
say, uh, you know, concealing your intentions, it made me think
30:23
of the military and uh and segmentation of projects, you know, sequestering different
30:32
groups, you know, like well, who saw Oppenheim, that great example,
30:41
the Manhattan Project. Everybody, everybody was kept, you know, kept
30:45
hidden. Everybody's intentions and plans and projects and and what they were supposed to
30:51
be doing was kept hidden from the other people. So they didn't really know.
30:53
Nobody knew really what was going on except for the people at the very
30:56
top. And you know, so it can be a good thing. You
31:03
know, if if your plans and intentions are are something that can easily be
31:08
derailed by by someone, by a friend or enemy or frenemy, what do
31:18
you think. Yeah, again, this initially is I kind of had that
31:22
same reaction in the first one, like what do you mean conteal my intentions?
31:26
You know, but when you say, like the military bill, that
31:30
resonates and they talk about a bit about that in the in the book,
31:33
and so, uh, you know you have to I mean they do just
31:41
in sports all the time right too that you're playing you don't want to know
31:44
them to know your play, right, you're trying to throw them off.
31:47
I'm thinking about football, like run somebody out there, and they're like,
31:48
oh, they're not doing that, but I thought they were going to do
31:51
that, right, So if you if you think of it as a game.
31:56
And I really enjoy watching the show Survivor. You guys ever watched the
32:00
TV show Survivor a whole lot of this in that show, because you're playing
32:07
a game and you're trying to like, well what am I? What am
32:08
I trying? What's the end and goal here? So I think you have
32:13
to understand what, like you said, what the intention is? I think
32:15
that's important to me. And I think also I flip it, I flip
32:20
it around, and I think what I like about the book too, Curtis,
32:23
is they oftentimes they talk about the reversal of this as well. But
32:28
how do you then detect yourself or how do you detect when somebody is trying
32:34
to conceal so they're using a power against you essentially, right, how can
32:38
you identify that power and say, oh, man, and especially if it's
32:45
a malicious intent, right, Bill, it's a malicious intent to conceal their
32:49
intentions. So how can we be mindful and pick up on that. I
32:57
think that there's some really good telltale signs they put in the book here of
33:00
like what how can you recognize that when somebody do you think of power against
33:07
you? So to speak? You know, I love sports analogies for for
33:15
these these laws, because if you're if you're in basketball, there's five players,
33:24
that's it. There's only five players that get to start. I want
33:30
to be a starter. Uh and and and all of them do. And
33:34
by the way, if you're a coach, you want all of them to
33:37
think that way. M hm. You know. It goes back to the
33:40
San Francisco Niners, Joe Montana when Steve Young was on the bench and Joe
33:46
Montana was playing. I don't know if you remember those those remember those days,
33:52
and Joe Montana wouldn't talk to Steve Young and because they're so competitive,
34:00
but Joe Montana knows that Steve Young wants his position. And and that's the
34:07
purpose of really these laws is that you know, you you cannot run a
34:10
company forever. You cannot be the president of a company forever. You can't
34:15
you don't be a president for four years. You so no knowing both sides
34:22
of the coin. The intentions that that's why Bill said earlier, is that
34:29
you really want to train people to take your position over, because not only
34:35
do you make your company stronger, more valuable, but people will will see
34:40
the value in itself. When you when you become less selfish in that regard
34:47
that bill. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah? Because uh, because
34:54
yeah, because you want to be able to be replaced. You can move
34:58
on to bigger and better things, whether that's within a company or outside of
35:00
a company, or you know, with a different company, with your own
35:05
company, with retirement, you know, whatever whatever it is you're you've got
35:09
in mind that you can move on to. So you need to uh,
35:15
yeah, you need to be able to train somebody and in how to do
35:19
your job, so you know. But so I guess in a way,
35:24
there's got to be somebody you tell your you tell some of your plans to
35:30
or or at least your operational uh you know, effectivenesses and uh, you
35:38
know, and uh and be able to to just be able to move on
35:43
to the next thing. Yeah, David, Any last thoughts on law number
35:47
three? Oh man, there's so much in here. I really like digging
35:52
into this one because it does challenge your nat at least for me, challenges
35:57
my natural kind of thoughts. Honestly, you know, I want to share
36:00
and open to things, but then there's a place here to be wise about
36:06
how you're sharing things. Okay, here's an example, or like, you
36:09
know, this is this is this is social engineering, which I think is
36:13
very interesting nowadays. I saw this on touch media. Have you guys ever
36:15
seen this at posts and missus post your favorite colors, post your where you've
36:20
lived in? How many places post this? Right? They postally asked you
36:22
all these personal questions. Have you guys seen those posts? Right? Respond
36:27
to this well? And then I saw this police post recently on it and
36:31
said, stop giving away your personal information to thieves that are trying to break
36:37
your account. They're they're they're receiving their intentions to get your information. They're
36:43
like, oh, this is innocuous, this is fun. Right, So
36:45
again that goes back to rule two. Yeah, yeah, trust your friends,
36:53
right, you're trusting them and like, hey, you're looking at me
36:55
and they're they're not clued in there. So to me, I applied this
37:00
rule more. I mean as to uh, I need to be aware of
37:07
those that are concealing their intentions and and and there's and there's so much of
37:13
it today. Uh. In fact, I just even had somebody try to
37:16
pool me on Facebook marketplace, trying to buy something, and they're like,
37:20
where is this you know, it was just this whole level like they had.
37:23
It was all really drawn out, like these messages back and forth.
37:27
It was well done. I'm like, wait a minute, something's off here.
37:30
So just again, I like the flip side too of it, like
37:34
watching out who's using this power even I'm not intending to uh, and and
37:39
just guard yourself, be aware. So that's really my big takeaway on this,
37:44
Doxy, that's very good. You know I always tell everybody to be
37:47
an absolute skeptic on everything for sure. Well let's let's dive into number four
37:54
here, David, I'll start with you. But it says always say less
38:01
than necessary. When I looked at this, I I kind of that's kind
38:09
of the way I've been throughout my career, you know, because once the
38:14
word whatever you say is out, you can't take it back. So tell
38:19
me a little bit about what your thoughts are on on law number four,
38:23
Always say less than necessary? Oh man, what's what's a bill? Might
38:28
know that there's a Bible verse that talks about you know, if you if
38:31
you speak, you remove all doubt that you're a fool. If you're quiet,
38:36
they don't know I was. I was just writing that, writing that
38:39
down, but I don't think it's biblical, but something. Yeah, it's
38:44
better to it's better to keep your mouth shut than open it. And uh
38:47
uh, it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool and
38:52
to open it and remove all doubt. Yeah, remove all doubt. You
38:55
know what's interesting Just to chime in on that is, uh, I should
39:00
have opened up a low number four with what I taught my kids, and
39:04
that is, before you speak, just remember these three things. Number one,
39:09
is it factual? Number number two is it necessary? Number three is
39:15
it kind? I go. If you can't, you follow those three,
39:19
you'll be fine. So most of the time they don't talk because most of
39:22
the time they realize that I don't know if what I'm not ready to say
39:25
is factual or not. But that's why I taught my kids from from day
39:30
one. No, that's absolutely factual necessary kind I've been in Uh. I
39:37
don't know anyone's ever been in a meeting with the lawyer like they're legally sitting
39:43
right like, hold on, is this on the record? You know?
39:47
Is this you know? That's let's make sure. And I remember quite distinctly
39:54
I was at the County of Riverside many many years ago, when I was
39:58
sitting there with a senior level person and we're at this table and we start
40:01
talking and he gently puts his hand on me and like you didn't have to
40:07
do this, but I knew it was like, Okay, stop talking right
40:10
now, and let's do a little bit more listening. And uh so,
40:15
yes, I think it's better. We've got two ears in one mouth.
40:20
Let's do a little bit more listening than Yeah. Yeah, I've gotten quite
40:27
a bit better since starting grad school at being more succinct saying more with less.
40:35
You know, I've always I've always said that I'm I'm love efficiency in
40:39
in engineering, and now I'm doing it in in writing as well. Mm
40:46
hmmm. That's good. Uh your thoughts Bilin and the other talks from law
40:52
number four let's see you here? Yeah, just no, I mean really,
41:04
uh, saying well, saying what is necessary, I think would be
41:08
would be a better way to to put and only say what is necessary and
41:15
as opposed to less than necessary, because if you're it's less than necessary,
41:17
you're not going to be understood in the in the first place. Yeah,
41:23
h David, any any other thoughts on you know, one of the one
41:29
thing that comes to mind. So one of the things I do in my
41:34
coaching program is we do a return and report. We ask guys where you're
41:37
at on different areas. And the guys that are very succinct in boom like,
41:44
hey this would happened Boom, I pretty much know they're on target and
41:46
making making the moves they need to move. When the guys start talking for
41:50
a long time and go on and on, I'm like, Okay, you're
41:53
not There's something there's something off here. You're not doing the work. You're
41:57
trying to justify. You're trying to come up with things. So is a
42:00
telltale signed to me? And you're not coming from a place of power.
42:05
You're actually coming a place of a weakness or a deficit, and you're trying
42:07
to like come up with all these stories and make up all these things to
42:10
justify where and why you're at. So if you can be say things succinctly,
42:16
and this goes for writing to trying to be more to the point,
42:20
if you see something really really worry I'm sure you're a writer, Bill or
42:22
U dot C. Right, can you make that as succinct as possible?
42:27
And and you know, and and and people can take it in or you're
42:30
just trying to go on and on and on and you and you lose them.
42:34
So to me, it shows the grasp of the question or what you're
42:39
trying to answer. You know, it's interesting that you how you said that
42:45
day, because I'll sit in meetings and you'll get the one or two or
42:52
three individuals that just talk and talk. And so what I have to do
43:00
if I'm running the meeting is I have to turn around and I always have
43:02
to have for clarification because we hang on. I have to stop them and
43:07
say because they bounce from one topic to the next instead of staying on target
43:14
less is more for sure, you know that when people do that, that
43:21
is a sign I think of I don't necessarily mean weakness, but it's really
43:28
a sign that they they can't stay on task on what we're trying to do.
43:31
For sure, right, they're not they're not They're not coming from a
43:36
place of power, certainty and clarity. Yeah, clarity and clarity, in
43:40
my opinion, is power. And I like that, I really do so.
43:45
I mean, I think this is a good tell tale science. So
43:47
if you're doing that right, if you're that person like you said, actually,
43:52
going on and on the meeting, you might want to be quiet and
43:57
think through this a little bit more exactly. You know, so I think
44:00
these are great. I mean these are great. There's so much in here.
44:04
Yeah, there's there, really is. Let's let's dive into one last
44:08
one. Okay, number five, and then we'll stop a number five because
44:13
like I said, there's so much and we're almost almost out of time here.
44:15
But law number five, so much depends on reputation. Guard it with
44:22
your life. This to me, I I just knew already from from my
44:29
upbringing and whatnot. But I'm gonna start with you David before I do.
44:35
I think that this law number five is your reputation is sacred in my and
44:42
you have to you have to guard it with your life. And even the
44:46
skeletons that we all have, you keep them in the classroom. Mm hm
44:52
oh no, any and we just lost Ox that you have to have them
44:54
come back again. He just he left. He leaves us on a hanging
45:01
here on this one. You know this, this idea of so much depends
45:07
on your reputation, guard it. Well, we'll hopefully get Doxy back in
45:13
a minute, because I do think here he comes. We I don't know,
45:21
there we go. I have never experienced this before. I know we've
45:27
had you on so many times. It's it's like the truth can't get out.
45:34
It started that. It started when I was in backstage, nobody let
45:38
me in. Well, we're glad you're here. We're glad you're back,
45:43
and you were saying, yeah, that's so much depends on this, on
45:46
the reputation. Yeah, absolutely, I think that you guard it with your
45:51
life, for sure. And I'll tell you why, because people sometimes will
45:57
listen when to others speak, they think it's factual. You know that if
46:01
I'm sitting here talking and let's say, what Charlie Chin is not on this
46:07
call, and I'm sitting here talking about Charlie Chin about all these things he
46:10
did, and he's not here to defend himself. See, and yet new
46:17
Bill or David you might think, well, gosh, whatevers, Curtis might
46:23
be an authoritative figure. I got to believe what he's saying about Charlie Chin,
46:28
which is absolutely crazy, but that's how people are. So that's what
46:32
I mean by you know, guarding that reputation with with all your life.
46:37
What's your what's your thoughts on that bill. I don't remember. I don't
46:43
remember the exact quote, but it was something Warren Buffett said about that we
46:50
can lose all the all the money, but we can't afford to lose a
46:53
single bit of our reputation. Yeah, that's true, and that's a good
46:59
Yeah, that's your reputation is similar to time, because it can take a
47:05
long time to build a reputation and a moment to ruin it. And of
47:10
course we all know that time is the only thing you can't get back,
47:14
no matter how hard to try. So good point and reputation. It took
47:21
twenty years to build it, two minutes to ruin it, another twenty years
47:24
maybe to get it back. Yeah, that's a good point, David.
47:31
I like that this talks about your ret maintaining a reputation that is of your
47:37
creation, and it talks about how you know, in some ways it can
47:45
double your strength, in other ways it can send people scurrying away. So
47:50
the same exact deeds I think this tex talks about this here appeer brilliant or
47:55
dreadful that can be entirely on the reputation of the doer. So what I
48:01
think is, you know you have to know how to get that out there,
48:08
get that information out out there. I can't remember. There's probably there's
48:13
movies on this and all sorts of different things, but you know there's different
48:15
ways you go about it, so how you present that same information, right.
48:22
So for example, all this is an example of say you know you
48:30
made a mistake or you lost money on a project, and that's like,
48:32
oh my goodness, this test does not a run a project. However,
48:36
you could say I learned from how I lost that money and I grew a
48:39
company and I was able to turn it. So yes, if you just
48:43
looked at that, one thing is that he was a mismanaged money in your
48:45
reputation. But if you could say I learned from that and how I applied
48:47
that and how I made more money later on. So it's all about how
48:52
we create that that story and understanding of what we did, how it came
48:58
to us, right, And I think that's really important because if you don't
49:01
do it like you just said, doc, see, somebody else is going
49:05
to come up and say, well, this is my reputation and if you
49:07
have never addressed it, you've never been able to create and you know,
49:12
embrace that. Then your left to somebody else's no reputation. You're meeting yourself
49:20
unguarded. You know this law number five and you probably you two probably relate
49:25
to this. I think this is politics one on one. Oh yeah,
49:30
for sure. I mean because when you see the politicians Democrat, Republic or
49:37
whatever it is in their debates, they attack one another like dogs, and
49:40
it really helps. They're rady when they attack, and their attack does it
49:49
come with a rebuff, you know. So it's quite fascinating to watch debates.
49:54
I like watching debates. It's kind of funny to see how this low
49:58
number five plays out. Yeah, absolutely, because one one way they're trying
50:05
to present it one way, and then the other person's saying, well,
50:07
no, no, it's actually this, and so you know, it's it's
50:10
it's like you said this, who's who's running toward that and who's running away
50:14
from it? You know? But I think it's you do have to guard
50:21
yourself, and unfortunately there's a lot I find the more you more you're on
50:27
the proactive side versus being defensive and having to come out after it, I
50:31
think it's better if you can lead with it and get that out there and
50:36
present the story rather than yeah, hiding it. So if something in my
50:43
experience, the more you can own what might be perceived as negative or off
50:49
putting, but then take that and apply that to creation of like I'm guarding
50:52
it and then I'm taking it and how am I learning from this or how
50:55
how has this affected me in a positive way versus trying to Uh, maybe
51:04
that's that's the best way I see of being guarding it. That's where I've
51:07
seen success in the reputation versus trying to I don't know, try to minimize
51:15
or keep quiet if you will, because people are very persistent, or they're
51:19
gonna come up and the come up with their own stories. It was better
51:21
for you, I believe right to bring it out and address it well,
51:28
not to close it. Close it. But we have tackled the first five.
51:31
We have forty three left. Any last thoughts, Bill will start with
51:38
last thoughts about the one thought. The one thought I got popping into my
51:44
head is if you don't learn how to use power, somebody else will,
51:47
and man, they might not use it for as much good as you do
51:52
as well. Excellent point, David. Any last thoughts, Man, I
51:59
like I really appear siate the how it challenges my thinking and the way the
52:04
words are presented, and it's it's like, okay, wait a minute,
52:07
I gotta reorient myself. It's like if you've ever seen a world map,
52:13
you see it flipped upside down, You're like, well, what is it?
52:16
That's what I feel a little bit like in a good way. It's
52:19
scrambling my brain a little bit like challenging me to think about this a little
52:23
differently than I have before. And I'm excited for future episodes to go and
52:29
discuss more of these laws. See that's the excellent point though, really,
52:34
because when you first read this book, it's going to do that to you.
52:39
It did that to me as well. It made me rethink some things
52:45
like well, wait a minute, wait a minute, my friends. You
52:49
know that friends issues like I can't trust my friends. It was quite quite
52:54
interesting to me, and I think I can't wait to actually get a chance
52:58
to dive into the the other forty three. So thank you and thank you
53:02
allowing me to run this meeting. I can't wait to do it again.
53:07
I thank you so much. Thanks, thanks, thanks for great just leaving
53:13
the conversation tonight, docy you bet my pleasure so we will We will do
53:19
more episodes of this, so please listen, subscribe, follow along. Will
53:23
welcome your comments of course. If we love a five star review on any
53:28
of your favorite podcast platforms, or if you're catching us on LinkedIn or YouTube,
53:32
please share and invite others to listen in. If you're interested in joining
53:37
us as a guest speaker, we would love to have you and talk with
53:39
you about that. Reach out to Bill Docsy myself with any questions regarding hey,
53:45
are you effectively applying these powers or not? And how we can be
53:49
able to help you. We'd love to hear from you. So thanks guys,
53:52
Thank you, thank you you too,