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Rugby Direct - Episode 168 · Rugby Direct

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News TALKSTB. Follow this
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  Speaker 1: and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio, Straight Down the.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Middle, Drum Score, Try.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Sucket inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: with Elliott Smith and Leam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Habit Health sackling all
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: your aches and pains from sports and work. You're intrepid
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: rugby journalists. Heroes are back for another week to review
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: not only the Super Rugby Final, we'll get to that
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: a bit later in the podcast, but the All Blacks
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: thirty three man squad to face Franz Elligott Smith with
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: me as always Liam Napier. We have spent the day
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: in Taranaki, beautiful part of the world Coastal Rugby Club
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: and on the podcast we'll hear from Scott Robertson and
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Albert Sword's Jackson and Ryan to explain some of the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: selections that they're made for the series. But Liam, welcome
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: to the podcast as always, and she's been a big.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: Old day as indeed, great to get out in the
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: community Taranaki, seeing them great airports and a great great
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: regnod club of Barrett Country.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: It is a great airport. Actually was very impressed by
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the new Plymouth Airport. So a wonderful place to while
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: away a few hours finding some copy. But let's get
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: straight into it, and here from All Blacks coach Scott
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Robertson a chat that you and I spoke with him
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: at the All Black squad naming and he explained some
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: of the key selections. So let's dive into that now.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Scott Robertson for still All Black Scott of twenty twenty five.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: How good to have this one named and how tricky
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: were the selections?
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: He good to be here, good to be a coastal,
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: awesome spot, fiber of our country. You know, clat Rugby
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: and some great men and woman out of here you
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: Coogamvi Kenjack. You know she's would be in the world
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: and it's good to come back here. And team selection
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: always tough. You know, I've got some great players competing hard,
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: so you're going to make some calls. Some great parts
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: are going to miss out. But yeah, we're really pleased
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: with the balance and the opportunities we've given some new parts.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: What were the toughest area loose forward sort of looking
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: at the squad seems like a really tough area that
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: you felt the squeeze the.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, loose forwards, midfield backs. As you can see.
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: The good thing is about the versatility of the players.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: So I'm looking pack two or three positions and being
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: in New Zealand, I want to make a very clear
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: point that we're going to bring a couple of pars
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: in and out. You know, we've got a couple of
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: injury covers at the moment, but coming and train we
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: found out the best we've got out of our plas
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: is set them up by having a week or so
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: until then, get to have a look at them, prepare
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: them so they're ready for test footy. And obviously we're
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: going to go from thirty three to thirty six and
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: then we're going to get injuries to you know, playing
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: test series at homes critical for us in their depth.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Super secrete you what stood out about the season?
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: What do you think?
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: And I had a pretty leading question there.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: Elio the I picked himself in regards with forum consistency.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: He's a mature, sure rugby part and sure mature man.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: What we asked for him and how we a lot
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: of the self control gets required to play at Test
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: forty and he showed.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: It just five loose forwards. I guess that sort of
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: stood out eighteen fifteen's but what was the thinking with
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: the loose forwards?
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, loose fords. We're going to have a second row
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: cover the loose fords positioned, so cover six and then
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: gives us the balance of it that we can play
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: the all the players over the three matt series. That's
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: our playing around that in that area. Obviously, Fabian's definitely
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: a lock well six foot nine and ten of them,
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: and and then we can we just start to look
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: and like I said, to add to the squad when
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: the Rugby Championship comes along.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: And the theme with the loose fords seems to be
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: strong on both sides of the ball and got quite
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: a lot of power there is that for.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, obviously, you know we've got some informed players and
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: the loose forwards the balance of the both play a
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: couple of positions. But I know it's a you know,
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: some a penny to talk about him, he said, moments
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: through the year has been been awesome and we're going
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: to get the best out of them. We feel like
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: he's maturing nicely.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: The loose head selection with offer out. What was it
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: about Olin Norris at one him selection?
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Look Jason's you know, obviously we'll cover a little bit
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: more detail. But big body being really really consistent, good
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: chance for us to look at him in the series.
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: You know, build depth in that area. There's always, you know,
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: always the question you go, now do you hold off
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: and give someone an older player a correct But we're
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: going to give Olio go. He's he's worked hardly, strong,
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: he's good scommager, so and he can carry all those
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: things that we look forward for in a play like
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: him here.
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: You can send them with tough and our white.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: His ability to get the ball, is that something that
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: stood out to you?
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: Yes, you know the Mothi's he's a special player in it.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: It's so much power in him. It's consistently over the
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: whole year, really impressed us. You know, his skill set,
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: his defensive reads got better and better, and he's so
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: resilient and tough. He compliments the midfield.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know you've named as in midfield. Do you
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: see him as a winger potentially as well, someone that
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: can play both positions, maybe off the bench. Yeah, a
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: little bit of.
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: A utility factor in him, which is great. You know
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: all players again, you look, we've you know, we've got
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: a few midfielders in there, but someone can play fallback
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: and covers can cover wing. And that's what we've done,
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: you know, like I've une around thirty five, like I've
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: brained it back to thirty three. We even thought about
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: thirty two that we had last year. But just to
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: give you guys exposure before you know, we get on
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: the road, some tough calls.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Ethan Black Edder and David Havilli just you know, had
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: tough for those fine calls that you've obviously get.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: To make, really tough, really good men. Firstly, not much
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: in the calls. They're being consistent and we just picked
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: this team for now and there's conversations that we had
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: for them. You know, they still stay in it and
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: we get to have a look at these players and
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: small margins.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Brodie McAllister as well obviously stand out for the
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: Chiefs this year. His edged George Bell was it just
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: a form selection?
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: You know, George has only played fearful games and Brodie's
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: played a lot of good foot. He started well, finished well.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: All his core roles are really really strong, and it
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: just gives us an opportunity build a little bit of
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: depth at hooker that put.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: In the cart before the horse. I know you're looking
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: at finishing games this year. Has it coming to your
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: selection thinking with guys like Tavera Tabanawa is usually coming
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: off the bench of twenty months ago, maybe a dupless
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: Is that a factor and selection when you're looking at
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: a squad.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, for sure. We know. You know we were
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: at last year. You're clearing the stats as I am,
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: as you know the opportunity we created, but we didn't
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: quite get to finish and you know the twenty three
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: wins test matches in most rugby games, So yeah, there
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: was discussion around there.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: So Scott Robertson, they're talking about some of his key
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: selections for the series. I'm sure everyone's seen the squad
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: by now, but Liam, what stands out to you from
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: the thirty three players he's named.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: I think there's some big surprises, aren't there. I don't
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: think anyone predicted that Ethan Blackheader would miss out. I
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: think Tavia Tavanawa is a surprise inclusion. There was good
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: early in the year, but perhaps faded away bit late
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: and then the Highlanders weren't involved in the playoffs, so
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: maybe he faded from view a little bit and Brody
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: McAllister don't recall anyone predicting his inclusion. I was aware
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: that I suffer Moore would be out with that hamstring injury,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: but the natural inclination is to think they'll stick with
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: George Bell. So that's a bit of a top line.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: And then I think the balance of the squad, as
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: well as surprising six midfielders five loose forwards in eighteen
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: fifteen split, it does feel a wee bit skewed, particularly
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: in that midfield. Too many midfielders. But what I do
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: like is this is a bold selection and it does
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: feel like now in the second year of Scott Robertson,
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: if you're gonna find out about some players, do it
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: and don't wait. So I was critical last year of
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks for being ultra conservative, and while they
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: had ten rookies, I stand by that. I think a
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: number of people should have been given more chance and
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: they could have been a lot braver, and I think
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: coming into their second year you're starting to see a
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: wee bit more of that. Certainly on the face of it,
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: with this squad.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: It feels like a squad and again I've probably same
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: issues with you around the balance of it, but a
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: squad that right, this is the way we want to play.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: We want to get over the game line. We want
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: to be explosive, We want to attack teams on both
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: sides of the ball. We want to be a little
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: bit more ruthless. And I think the selections, the headline
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: selections lend themselves to that. Ta Tavatava No, why very
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: very good over the ball, explosive in nature has been impressive. Look,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: we didn't select them in our squads last week when
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: we went through because I similar to you though maybe
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: faded towards the end of the season. But what the
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: All Blacks have said is that they think he was
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: consistent and they're willing to obviously upskill him and get
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: him into that All Blacks environment and trust that they
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: can add to his game. There another player that is
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: explosive on both sides of the ball. He gets a
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: lot of credit for the turnovers he makes, but what
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: it doesn't get a lot of credit for, perhaps should
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: is his ability with born hand He's very very good
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: with his ball handling skills. Really like that about his game.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: So I think that's where you look and go, Okay,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: well they're weighing up Blackheader and maybe Heavili in the midfield,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: they're gone with Ta ta Nawa and care Feet, and yeah,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: there's some other players in the mixture as well, But
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: these are selections that are not risky necessarily, but they
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: are more explosive selections than perhaps the others that are weighing.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Up all the people with points of difference. And I
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: think we've touched on the fact that when you look
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: at guys like Luke Jacobson, Dalton, Papa Lee and Ethan Blackheader,
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: very similar players, strong defensively and without painting them with
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: all the same brush, it's about, Yeah, like you touched on,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: what does this All Black team want to be? And
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: it is a power game. It is that destructive ball carrying,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: having the point a difference and putting the cart before
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: the hawks a wee bit. But last year the All
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Blacks lost the four tests they lost, they led at halftime,
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: and so their finishing is a major focus this year.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: And when you look ahead to the potential composition of
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: the bench and injecting guys like Tavatavanawa potentially Kaife to
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: come on and you know, bring their points a difference,
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: bring those turnovers, that explosiveness. I really like the way
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: some of these selections are tailored and the thinking that
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: they've got. I think we just if we isolate a
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: few of these selections. Ethan Blackhead in particular, he didn't
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: play a lot of rugby this year, is very injury prone,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: is very strong defensively, is always among the top tacklers
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: and we saw that in the back end of the
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Crusaders campaign, but does an awful lot with ball in hand,
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: and that I think has cost him. His post contact
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: meters are very limited and for the prototype of what
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks want from a particular six, and they
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: do see Blackheader promptly as a specialist six six because
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: he doesn't have that speed off the back of the scrum. Yes,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: he's played a bit of open side, so that that
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: hurts him as well. What's your big takeaway from the
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: black Header?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: No, my takeaway is exactly the same thing as that
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: he is hamstrung by the fact that he probably is
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: only seen as a blowdside in this All Blacks environment.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I know he started tests, not many, but a few
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: at open side and twenty twenty one. But with the
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: player profile that they want out of that loose Ford trio,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: there just isn't room for Ethan Blackhader, given he can't
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: cover eight and it was probably a close decision between
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: him and Sammopenny fen Now, but if you're taking in
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: one six, they've gone with Fenaw who offers that explosiveness.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I thought Fenw didn't have the greatest of games against
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: the Blues, was a little bit better against the Brumbies
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: the week prior, fairly anonymous in the final in all honesty,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: but they've gone with the player that again we use
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: this word explosiveness, this is the kind of player. This
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: is a statement selection that this is the way we
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: want to play. I can see Ethan Blackhead are potentially
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: getting back into the All Blacks environment. They're going to
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: have to expand the squad to thirty six for the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Rugby Championship, and maybe he comes back in when you've
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: got games against South Africa where perhaps the profile of
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: the opponent there is a little bit more similar and
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you want to have a player that's going to tackle
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: all day. So I don't know that necessarily it's Ethan
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Blackheads swan song in the All Blacks environment. He is
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: off contract, I think is an interesting thing around that,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So he hasn't really signed with New Zealand rugby's my knowledge,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: excuse me, beyond this year, So that is interesting in itself,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I think he's certainly hamstrung by that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: The other points to note here is injuries have played
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: a part. Peter Lukeye, who was very good at the
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: back end of last year for the All Blacks off
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: the bench against France, didn't really kick on as you
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: would expect him to do with the Hurricanes this year.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: He is not considered because of a knee injury. Simon
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Parker was the other one that's been on the All
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Blacks radar. Maybe if he was fits with that ankle injury,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: he would have pushed some a penny female and you
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: touched on there with Ethan Blackett. Do you see a
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: path back to him? Well, what about Dalton papal Lee.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Well this is interesting, isn't it. And I don't think
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: either of us had him in our squads last week
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: And it's not luck he's done anything wrong necessarily for
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: the Blues this season, but he hasn't stood out and
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: it seems to me that they are going away from
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: you know, he was the heir apparent to Sam Kaine.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: He was the ear apparent Sam Kane for a number
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: of years and when Sam Kine had the injuries and
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: various things, Don and Papa Lee slotted in there. But
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I just think he's been just a little bit too
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: quiet over the last year or so. Faded out of
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: the selector's plans last year, then got injured, didn't go
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: on the end of the two That probably hamstrung his
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: chance to impress the and again the Blues. When you
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: had an up and down season and you're on the
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: cusp of All Black selection as an incumbent and you're
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: not standing out, you're probably one of those players that
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: are on the chopping block. So I'm not saying he
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: had a terrible season, but he didn't certainly stand out
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: for the Blues. Now his future is very, very interesting
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: because again he was painted as the air apparent to
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Sam Kaine, and now all of a sudden he's not
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: in the squad and doesn't appear to be the open
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: side flank or the kind of open side blankert flanker
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: that the All Blacks are looking for.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: What did you make of that?
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: It's not a surprise, and that probably speaks to how
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: far he has fallen in the pecking order. And I
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: mentioned last week that I think the Blue style hasn't
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: helped him because he does have that ability to play wide.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: He is a good ball carrier, but the Blue style
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: that tight combative to Reck's game doesn't give him those opportunities.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: So I think that that has hurt. But if caref
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: he takes his chance, and there is every suggestion he
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: will because he's been waiting so long. It was what
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty and then you kind of covid years here
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. I think he's spent time in the
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: all Blacks environment but has gone away matured and you
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: can see how hungry he has been, how much he
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: is matured with those leadership roles with Wellington and the Hurricanes.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: So I just can't see him blowing that opportunity. So
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: you've got Ardie Carreefee, and then you've also got guys
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: like Christian Leo Wadia who's not a seven admittedly, but
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: he's in as injury cover for Luke Jacobson from his
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: head knock So and Peter Lacai on the fringe as well.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: So the roadback for PAPALLII looks looks very congested.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, he's got a big NBC season. He's
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: now going to have to impress with County's Monaco and
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: you look, I don't I'm not going to all matter
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: come afielbacks. But as you say that, that path is
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: really really tough for him in a congested, loose forward trio. Again,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: they've only taken five for the series. They clearly want
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: to see a lot of these players. That's something what
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: probably worth touching on as well, is that they could
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: have named thirty five. That was the number that was
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: given when they sent out their media advisory saying hey
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: we're going to name a thirty five men squad. They've
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: only named thirty three. And to me, that also that
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: they want to see a lot of these players in
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: action and don't want them holding tackle bags for three
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: weeks and not getting opportunities.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: That's right, and that was the case last July as well.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Give everyone opportunities and no point picking them in the
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: squad and not giving them a chance to make their
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: debuts to prove themselves. And I think it's also worth
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: noting that this is a squad for July. Yep, and
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: there'll be thirty six for the Rugby Championship and that
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: will change. There'll be injuries, there'll be different form permutations,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: and you've got other people coming back like least to
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: find Anookho and the backs who I assume will be
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: pretty much straight inclusion given where he left and is
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: impact with too long, so there will be further change.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: This is just for July, but on the face of it,
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: it's a very intriguing squad and we haven't even you know,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: touched on the front row with the guys like Oli
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Norris coming.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's touch on that. Then we knew there
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: had to be a loose hid prop. Olie Norris was
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: a player that we both packed last week. Then George
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Bell went out and had a very very good back
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five minutes of the Super Rugby Final and
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I thought he was excellent. But Oli Norris is the
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: younger player they've chosen to go with him, and you
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: can't say he's not worthy of his opportunity because even
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: when he got penalized a little bit, you know on
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: the weekend against Fletcher Newell, you're coming up against a
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: very very good tight head prop. I think there's a
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: lot to like about Oli Norris.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: There is very dynamic mobile another in the Passilio Tossi
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: Mole not to the same build, but a former loose
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: forward so brings that real mobility around the park. I
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: think it is a concern that he got exposed to
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: that degree, but he's not alone. You know, a prop
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: doesn't get isolated. So and the chief scrum in general
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: got capitulated, didn't it against the Crusaders, particularly in that
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: second half. So a bit of work to do there,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: I think. But I like again that the All Blacks
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: are having a look at some of these guys. They
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: know what they're going to get from George Bauer, from
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Ethan Blacket, from Dalton Pope Lee, from David Heavily, but
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: they don't from Fabian Hollands, Norris McAllister and these other rookies.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: So I like that that they're trying to find some
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: things out and they're being a bit more brave and bold.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Brady McAllister another one selected. You know, as you said
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: at the top, genuine bolter. You know it's a word
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: that's overused, but if you're going to pack bolts out
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: of it Scott as a bolter because none would have
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: picked him. George Bell seemed like the obvious cab off
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: the ring, but mcalson moved to the Chiefs in the
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: off season has got more game time this year, even
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: though that's pretty congested at the Chiefs with Bradley Slater
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: there and as well in SAMASONI takeyaha, but he stood
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: out and he's got his opportunity. I thought he and
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: losing if it was pretty good on the weekend.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Made a real impact, probably the best, certainly the best
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: performer off the bench for the Chiefs. It was. I
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: remember him ripping one in a tackle and just being
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: amongst everything and it's easy to forget at the back
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: end of the super rugby the front end. He started
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: possibly the majority of the of the chief season at
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: hooker and that's the sort of impact he made. And
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: look good on him for moving to the Chiefs and
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: taking an opportunity. And I think I like the selection
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: more than George Bell because the All Blacks when they
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: picked George Bell last year over Eckland or Ricky Ricky Talley,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: it was they were very upfront about that being investing
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: in youth, but then they didn't trust him. He was
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: on the bench for matches and he come on against
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Ireland for one minute.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And George Bell needs rugby. I think he didn't play
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: a lot during the NPCE that sorry, super Ruggy, because
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: he was injured for a lot of it. We saw
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Moan and new have a very good season for the
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Crusaders and come in and impress the air. You know,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: he struggled for minutes because he was injured for you know,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: so long. He just needs rugby under his belt. And
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: whether that's with the NPC, I'm not sure if he's
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: got any moldy blood in him, whether he go and
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: play for the New Zealand MALDI, but get some game time,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: get some regular game time under his belt and maybe
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: while the time you get to the end of the year,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: there is a decision for the end of year tour
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: as to whether you go ol Moore, if he's fit
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: ready to go by then McAllister or George Bell and
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: you know, and I'll include the others on there, and
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Taylor and and and Takeyaha in it. There is genuine
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: decision to be made by the end of the year
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: when you have had those hookers get more rugby under
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: their belt.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. And the all Blacks overall philosophy here,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: particularly with these new guys, is they want to be
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: four deep in every position. So it comes back to
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: again the fact that they know a lot about these
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: other guys. Well, let's get these rookies in and then
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: when injuries strike, they're not coming in cold. So that's
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: part of it. It's broadened it out a little bit
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: more to positions. Outside backs. Yep, No Ammonia Naraua. He's
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: in there as injury cover for anton Lena Brown, who
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: it sounds like could have actually played for the Chiefs
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: at the weekend but didn't, so you would think he's
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: not far away. No Leroy Carter who had a good
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: season but didn't play well in a poor performance from
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: the Chiefs in the final. No Chefihaki, who was called
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: in last year very surprising from outside the squad as
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: a training partner. So very much same same In the
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: back three, Ruben loves there as a wing fallback and
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: first five option. Mark Talia not selected because he's going
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: to Japan. What do you make of the back three?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: It does feel same same, I don't Yeah, I mean Seevarese.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I didn't pick him in my squad last week. I
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: thought he had a very good Super Rugby final. I
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: thought he was very very good for the Crusaders on
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: the night and seems to have a wee bit of
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: his paceback in the game, which he was probably lacking
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: last year. Now what he's done to do that, I'm
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: not entirely sure, but we saw him get run down
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: against Louis belle Bid in the French Test. I kind
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: of felt that his time for a changing at the
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: guard in the Wings, but clearly the All Blacks don't
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: at this point. Cadob Clark didn't score a try during
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Super Rugby, not entirely his fault. That game plan probably
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't suit the Wings, although mrke Clear managed to bag
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: a few. It does feel same same would have like
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: see Cadob Pung guitar have a longer Super Rugby season
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: with the Highlanders rather than get injured. That was unfortunate
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: timing if he was able to push his case a
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: little bit more. This is Jackie Brod of MA to
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: UK Neepkins as well, but very much a fullback option
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: rather than a wing, so it does feel same. Would
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: have liked to see one of them that Leroy Carter
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: probably get in the mix and and push their claims
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit further. What did you make of the
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: outside backs?
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the chief swingers are hard done by.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: They were the form finishers all year. That changed to
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: a degree when the final squeeze came on, when the
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: weather changed and the pressure came on and there wasn't
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: that same space and room to move, and the high
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: ball was a lot more prevalent. I thought Lero o'cartera
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: in particular was a wee bit exposed there at the
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: weekends with the Crusaders barrows and the way they targeted
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: the Chiefs backfield had a lot of success there. I
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: would have liked to have seen Carter included because he
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: has a point of difference again with just with that
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: out and outpace and amani At I'm a big fan
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: of very silky player, got all the skills, a pretty
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: good kicking game, sound under the high ball, highly involved,
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: so I would like to see him get a crack.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: I guess you've got flexibility there with Tavatavanahwa, but I
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: don't he doesn't have the pace to be an international wing,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: so I think midfield is his best position. You have
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: flexibility with Rikowane potentially pushing out to the wing, and
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: I think we will see We did see a bit
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: of that last year. I think we will see a
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: little bit more of that. So there is versatility within
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: that squad. But yeah, I'm with you on Savories. I
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: don't see him being in the World Cup squad.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Wing is very much a form, always traditionally been
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: a form selection for the al bleckxing, and you have
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: had long term winners Palette, Wilson, Lombu, you know, apart
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: from his illness, et cetera. But more recently it's trended
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: towards the hot hand. You know, why, sucking a holder
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: for a period of time, Julian Sava for a period
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: of time, Ema Scudder, you know, probably the biggest example
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: of that, George Bridge. You know, some of those players
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: have cycled through a lot of wingers in recent times
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: and it kind of felt like maybe the key should
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: have been handed over a little bit. But to the
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: extent that Carter and Nutowa played good seasons, they weren't
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: banging down the door necessarily either, and so they've gone
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: with the tried and true. And I guess now for
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: someone like Sevie Reese who has been selected and maybe
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: didn't have the greatest of all black seasons last year
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: started strongly and faded, you know, some big questions come
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: to him when he gets his opportunities in some point
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: in this French series.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, particularly as a wing right, you're always looking over
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: your shoulder because New Zealand is generally blessed with good
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: outside backs and lessifying a nook who is another example
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: of somebody who hears that versatility value, a versatility within
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: a squad. Yeah, I wanted to touch on the first
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: fives as well. Reuben Love is the third choice ten
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: and the squads. Stephen Peter Fetter was listed as unavailable,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: so least on the Raider barely played for the Blues
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: this year because of that calf injury. Should we be
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: concerned about the depth of New Zealand rugby at ten?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think we should be. Bot and Barratt will
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: start the first testing in Eden. You would suspect Damian
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: mckinsy is going to get some opportunities there as well
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: this year. To be honest, I think lacking, you know,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: a real game driver that is going to take you
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: into the twenty twenty seven World Cup.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: I don't think room Love is ready to not ready
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: to start.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Jacob not ready to start a test ten Rivers, Rahara
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: not ready to start a test at ten Taha Kim
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: looks promising for the Crusaders, then got injured. Not ready
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: to start, you know. So there's some promising players there,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and Bart and Damie Kinsey have done a good job
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: for the All Black silvery number of years.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And you do have Riching Mooree coming back next year.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: If he comes back.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Let's look at the product line, right, Yeah, these are
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: not stop gap measures, but these are aging first fives.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: And McKenzie, to be fair, has signed on to twenty
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: twenty nine. I think it is so he's going to
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: be around a long time, but there's still questions about
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: his ability to command and direct the game, not just
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: at test level but as.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Of say, yeah, we'll get into some of those.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Back end of super rugby when the pressure comes on.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: So these contenders coming through, I think there's a lot
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: of work to do.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think Boden Barrett has got a big
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: opportunity to take the position by the scruff of the
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: neck because we saw last year that the All Blacks
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: gave Damien McKenzie chances and then after that letters low
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: in Sydney where it all turned to shit after a
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: very very strong start that they went cold on him.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: He came back in and started that Test against Ireland.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: It was very very good that night and the All
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Black's best. But I think Boden Barret's got the opportunity
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: first and foremost, and for me, he's got the opportunity
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: to signal and the first two tests whatever he starts
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: in this July window that I am the All Blacks
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: ten at the Rugby World Cup in twenty twenty seven
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: and we don't need rich and wanting to come back.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: He might come back, but we don't need him. That's
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: the kind of message that he's got the possibility to see.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Now whether he takes it, there's another matter entirely. But
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I think you know, Boden Barrett to me strikes me
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: as the player that has the ability to more so
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: to transform his game into that traditional ten type archetype.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: As his career goes on, he can't take on the
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: line as much as he used to, hasn't got that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: out and outpace that he used to because he's aged.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: That happens to everyone, but to me, I think he's
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: got the ability in his game to adapt to that.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: What you need out of a ten a game driver,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: and we need to see it from Bode Barrett.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm with you. I don't think there's any choice
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: right now that Boden is the first choice number ten.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: But the all blocks are one injury away from Ruben
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Love potentially playing a significant role at first five, and
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: for me that's a concern. Ruben only played what four
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: games for the Canes at ten this year, doesn't have
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: a lot of experience, has a lot of potential, but
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: has a lot of work to do, so I think
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: that's one area of concern depth wise, I also wanted
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: to touch on Quinte Pie big return. Yeah, what's it
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: been three years?
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Three years since it was Marvel Stadium. I think it
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: was twenty twenty two when Darcy Swain took a liking
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: to Quinn's league. You know, somewhere one point I thought,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: is it going to happen again for Quinte Pie? This
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: year it showed that it is going to happen again
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: and he's real and whether it's taken him two plus
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: years to get the confidence back in the league and
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: be ready to play the kind of role that got
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: him into the All Blacks in the first place. I
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: don't know, but boy am I glad to see him
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: there because he's that kind of twelve that can get
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: you gain line, as we talked about at the top,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: get you over the advantage line, and set you up
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: on attack. He's the kind of twelve that the All
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Blacks really really need. Jordi barrettsy incumbent twelve. So it's
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: going to be a fascinating we selection mix because Quintepie
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: can play thirteen. Hasn't done a lot of it in
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: recent times for either the Chiefs. He's played a bit
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: on the wing, but in general, it is just good
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: to see quinte Pie back and playing at the top
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: of his game again.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Quintepie is a guy that has shown obvious, obvious resilience
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: to come back from that horrific knee injury. He's a
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: guy that now maybe you always but maybe now more so,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: knows his game, knows his strengths and plays to them.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: He is very physical you touched on that ball, carrying ability,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: punch over the game line, and he hits hard, particularly
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: particularly if you're running directly at him. So he's also
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: added some finest skills to his game with a kicking
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: ability in recent times, so fully deserving of his selection there.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: But yeah, the All Blacks do have too many twelves.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: Quinte Pier, Jordie Barrett's Tavetavnawa you would class as a
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: twelve and Antonina Brown that's four. Anton can very seamlessly
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: play second and center. But there's four second fives in
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: that squad. That that's too many, isn't it?
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: It is too many? Interesting balance given they've gone for
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: so many midfielders is which I didn't necessarily pick Billy Procton,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Rico Yuanni, two very good thirteens. It's gonna be interesting
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: to see what happens in regards to that. But they
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: haven't explored any further depth beyond that and the balance
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: of the squad. I mean, who's the next thirteen that
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: could possibly come through? Is it someone that Brandon Enmoor
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: gets back in the mix.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Well, Anton's can player as well, so you've got three there. Well.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: The other one we haven't touched on is Faban Hollands. Yeah.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: The first Netherlands born All Black. What an amazing story.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: A guy that dreamed a dream and made it a reality.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: Came to christ Church six months scholarship, went to Fash
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Boys High School, saw the Light, went to Dunedin. Has
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: put an immense amount of work into his game and
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: boy is here a big human and from all accounts,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: the way he came into that all black environment as
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: a training partner of the back end of last year,
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: there's every indication that he is gonna not take Test
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: rugby by storm, but certainly hit the ground running.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Absolutely and deserving of his opportunity. He's been very very
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: good for the Honds in Super rugby this year and
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I think he has a bit of Brodie Retallic about him,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: and whether he realizes that potential is another matter entirely.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: But he's got that body profile of a Brodie retallic
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: and very very good with ball in hands, good defensively,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: will hit anything that moves. Really like this selection and
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: it's gonna be fascinating to see how they integrate him
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: into All Blacks twenty three. They've got Patrick three plot,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: They've got Fabian Horn, They've got two po VII who
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: had an excellent All Blacks year last year and they've
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: got the Captain Scott Barrett. It's an interesting juggling act
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: and one of those locks won't be Fabian Horned, won't
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: be Patrick three. Plot two is you want to cover
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: in the loose forwards as well? Robertson said today.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting point, isn't it. So VII and
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: Scott Barrett have both started tests at blindside and that's
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: why they felt comfortable to go with five loose forwards.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: But it also does show that the perennial question of
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: who the All Blacks six is remains open because we
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: asked Jason Ryan about where the wallasy tt will go
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: to eight and artists veta seven as everyone expects, and
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: it was reasonably guarded. But I think we certainly will
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: see that. So whether it's seven penny female or somebody else,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: they need someone needs to stand up at six.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: That's a great segue into our chat with Jason Ryan
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: at the Coast of Rugby Club today.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Well, Jason, start off of your area of expertise, mate,
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: how did Olie Norrish bash his way down the front door.
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we've been pretty impressed with Oli in the last
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: couple of years. To be honest, I think this year
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: he's been incredibly accurate in his role. His big body's
• 35:13
  Speaker 6: built it nice, he's an excluse forward. He's dynamic around
• 35:15
  Speaker 6: the park both sides of the ball. So there's a
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: lot to like about him, and we feel that it's
• 35:20
  Speaker 6: time to bring in a younger Loose said, and it's
• 35:23
  Speaker 6: a great opportunity for him.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: Did you play effect there because I guess George Bauer
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: is a guy that's been there, done that, but you've
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: gone with the younger buck.
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: I guess yeah, we know, we know George is there,
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: and we thought he played well in the final series.
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: I think Olie's played well consistently all year, So you
• 35:40
  Speaker 6: know you've got to you've got to look at that
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: and you know we've got We prided ourselves on selecting
• 35:46
  Speaker 6: a team that's four to five deep because we know
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: that there'll be injuries and we'll know that you can
• 35:49
  Speaker 6: never have enough props, so it was important for us
• 35:53
  Speaker 6: in the first selection to get him in.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: Broughden Callister went to the Chiefs and has forced his
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: way in as well, ahead of a guy like George Bell.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: What goes into that selection.
• 36:04
  Speaker 6: Brodie's really earned the right, he's been durable and he's
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: been extremely consistent right from game one. Belly came in
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: last year when there was an injury to Sonny and
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: Brody gets a chance this year there's an injury suffer,
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: you know. So again it's that deep side of it
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: where you've got to stay on and keep the position competitive.
• 36:21
  Speaker 6: But I think Brody has showed some really good collisions
• 36:24
  Speaker 6: both sides of the ball. He's a big body and
• 36:28
  Speaker 6: we're going to need a good scrumnging hooker and against France.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Always a lot of interest in the loose forwards. You've
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: gone five there and some big games, missing two per
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: c comes in. How does that filter down round the
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: selection table for.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: The for the mix.
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so look, you know, we saw how good art
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: he was and we believe that two per c this year,
• 36:50
  Speaker 6: probably the last couple of years, has really earned the right.
• 36:53
  Speaker 6: I think it's been a great story for Dupe. So
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: I think he's might have been twenty twenty he first
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: came in and he's gone away, and that's an example
• 37:00
  Speaker 6: of a player who really really wants to be an
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: All Black. And I think the leadership roles that he's
• 37:05
  Speaker 6: had with Wellington and the Kynes bought the best out
• 37:08
  Speaker 6: of them and we're seeing that. So and then obviously
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: we've got we've got Wallace there and we know how
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: consistent Lucas and Samma penny Fee. Now we thought he
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: had a really good Northern tour last year, the back
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: end he got. You know, there's a couple of things
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: were tidy up in his game and we'll be clear
• 37:24
  Speaker 6: around that. But I think up until that French week
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: where he got knocked down and Test one, he'd had
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: a real good training week and we thought he was
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: really ready to go.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: So we'll keep.
• 37:32
  Speaker 6: Backing them in and and we've also got some locks
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: that can cover six as well.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Do you see Wallace going to and to seven or
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: you're still open at the stage?
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: What do you reckon?
• 37:44
  Speaker 6: Oh, look, it's it's a it's a good combination that
• 37:47
  Speaker 6: we've got up our sleeve.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah. Always players that go close and miss out
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Dopp and Papliga, even black edarthing part of previous squads before.
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: Wats your message for those players that have missed out
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: this time?
• 37:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we'll stay in touch, you know, we'll have the
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: care package and get around the boys that do you know,
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: Raizor makes the phone calls this morning, which are not nice,
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: and then it's my job to follow up. You know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: we had a bit of a get together last week
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: in the Mountain. Dults was there and we had a
• 38:12
  Speaker 6: good catch up and where.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: He was at, and.
• 38:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I've got no doubt that he'll go away and
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: work hard and because he's been a good All Black
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: and He've got no doubt he'll keep chopping away on
• 38:22
  Speaker 6: his craft.
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: Ethan just kissing out on he was it a balance
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: thing or a mixed thing?
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially, Yeah, I think so.
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: Look, it's we just believe where sammer Penny's at and
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: that the accuracy Luke brings sort of with a few
• 38:34
  Speaker 6: positions probably gets a nod there. But you know, look
• 38:38
  Speaker 6: it's the All Blacks. He's always going to be team
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: players miss out and it makes that job hard, but
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: it's not supposed to be easy, so we just get
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: on with it.
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: You know, Fabian Holland's a great story.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: And you know, coming from the Netherlands and going to
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: school here and and now eligible for the All Blacks,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: what did you make of a superifing.
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: I think he's been exceptional. There's a lot to like
• 38:59
  Speaker 6: about Fabian. I think he embraces the contest all the time,
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: whether he's got the ball or he hasn't got the ball.
• 39:06
  Speaker 6: Obviously a phenomenal line out forward who's learning his craft,
• 39:09
  Speaker 6: who's exceptional last year for the All Black fifteen against Munster,
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: and then he came in the back end and we
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: saw some things that you know, looked pretty good and
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: we believe he's got a big future young man.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: That's all in front of him.
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: I guess left last year and getting into this year.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: What are the things is a forward path that you're
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: looking to improve.
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: Oh, we're always looking to step forward into our opposition.
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: We need to make sure that our big rocks of
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: our game are really dialed in. I think you saw
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: at the back end of Super Rugby. I think it
• 39:36
  Speaker 6: was thirty four scrum penalties in the final series. All
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: the teams that had the dominant scrum went all the way.
• 39:41
  Speaker 6: So that's an important one of those big fundamental specially
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: when we look at France and just quality of our
• 39:47
  Speaker 6: acuracy of how we finish games, and.
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: Just on Lucas that a concussioned protocol.
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: Wave Gordon Yeap just going through an HIA protocol yet
• 39:56
  Speaker 6: a few bangs after the final She's the hell of
• 39:58
  Speaker 6: a contest, so we just got to make sure that
• 39:59
  Speaker 6: we don't rush that.
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: As a forwards coach, must have enjoyed that sort of ding.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Dong battle, yeah, I did.
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: I've enjoyed the last two or three weeks. Really it's
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: been probably a little bit more reality of what a
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: test matches, you know, So yeah, it's been good.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: Stylistically, we see much of the same or will punters
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: be able to see many big shifts in the game
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: without giving all your tactics.
• 40:26
  Speaker 6: I think we need to get a little bit better
• 40:27
  Speaker 6: at our accuracy and our skill sets, and that will
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: complement our whole game, you know, whether or not we've
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: got to play with power. We believe we've got some
• 40:35
  Speaker 6: ball carriers that can genuinely do that upfront, and then
• 40:37
  Speaker 6: we've got some backs at a good finishes, you know,
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: like we've seen the impact that Jim had on the
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: Highlanders and I think that's going to be pretty exciting too.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Anything else you want to touch on the All Black
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: score before we wrap up. I mean we did mention it,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: but dou Plus secretly fear this is a player that,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: to our understanding had a contract offer on the table,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: we set it out right today he added a contract
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: offer from Japan to go up there and was close
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: to taking it, but didn't want to give up that
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: All Black stream. And he's gone out there and at
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: some point in this two or three weeks is going
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: to take the field as an All Black. It really
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: is a great story.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: It is because he's invested in himself and I don't
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: want to say hit the jackpop, but that money is
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: always going to be there for him now and he
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: took a chance and that's paid off. So it is
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: it a great story. If you've brought in this conversation
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: out to now to just touch on briefly how the
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: All Blacks want to play where they need to improve
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: this year. I think it is that direct ball carrying,
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: it's attacking space, it's having a really dominant full pack
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: and finishing better. So I think that's where they're going
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: to target some real improvements.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd agree with that, and I think certainly the
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: finishing and closing out of games stands is the big
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: flashing red light that they need to work on from
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: season twenty twenty four, and those leads that you mentioned,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: they all had you know the games they lost, they
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: led all back side. Shouldn't be doing.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: That, No, and that's where the big shifts need to come.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Just to shout out to was the men, wasn't it
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: on the barbecue and coastal rugby? Was some good see
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: some tar tartanaky beef, sausages and petties.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we done an absolute treat Burger Market. So yeah, absolutely,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: it's the way to the media's coffee shop back coffee
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: truck as well.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it all went well, kids and tows so
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: they had a ball.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, all searching out autographs, including you know, Hollie
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Richie al Coholic Banks star. Absolutely right. We'll take a
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: break here on Rugby Direct. I've been waiting forty or
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: so minutes for this. Let's stick in the Super Rugby
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Final last year later.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: But this is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Ever try try ten sixty six, every tackle get up again.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: Afore I'm not.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: It's Rugby Direct.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: You're back with Rugby Direct, powered by Habits Health, and
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: it is time to talk the Super Rugby Final. It
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: is the Crusaders sixteen, the Chiefs twelve, and the Crusaders
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: win their fifteenth title in Super Rugby and say what
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: you like about them, and I will and then next
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: to a while. But they know their way to the
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: finish line. They know their way to that championship podium
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: more than any other team in this competition. And they
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: laid it out on Saturday night and were two good
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: for a Chiefs team that bossed the regular season, but
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: once again fall short. What did you make to the final?
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: Wow? Almost fell asleep? You know, it's pretty tough. What not?
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: What's happening? Three points in the second.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Half, so we need mate? Three points is as good
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: as gold.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Look, it's a redemption for the Crusaders, isn't it. Twenty
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: twenty four was in the dere and there was a
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: lot of factors that went into that. You had Scott
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: Robertson being elevated to the All Black shoe Heads, Richie
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Mwonga and Sam Whitelocke, some generational players moving on. The
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: Crusaders obviously had a raft of injuries. You had Robert
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: Penny coming in, but it was a real low point
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: for a champion franchise to win four games to miss
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: the playoffs for the first time since twenty fifteen. You
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: and I are not alone here. We felt they should
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: move on from Rob Penny. They had a wide ranging
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: review which had I don't know what was it, seventy
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: on action points. How the review and they made some changes.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: They got some massive pillars back Will Jordan was usually influential,
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: Cody Taylor coming back, Scott Barrett's these guys that didn't
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: play a lot of rugby in twenty twenty four were
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: real pillars. But others stepped up as well, Rivers, Rayhanna
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: and others. So look, the Crusaders will really enjoy that.
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: And the Chiefs it was a really bad into the
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: air for them. They blew home advantage against the bluesep
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: and did not fire a shot, really crumbled in the
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: second half, in particular that their work under the high
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: ball the scrum was dismantled. Damien McKenzie went missing some
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: really bad errors. They just felt the squeeze. They got
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: suffocated and a third lost final in a row. I
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: don't know whether it's just the weight, the mental burden.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: It's one thing to acknowledge that, it's another to overcome it.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: And it just felt the longer that match went on,
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: the heart of the Chiefs tried, and it just never
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: felt like they were going to win.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: They know it didn't. And the Crusaders led by one
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: point for most of that second spell and then got
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: to that four point advantage around the seventy first minute mark,
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: but their advantage felt way more than that, and it
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: felt o the Chiefs were desperately chasing the game, that
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: they were really only one point behind or four points behind,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: and not so they were playing catch up rugby necessarily,
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: but it felt like they were trying to, you know,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: stay above water in the game and put under pressure
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: by the Crusader. Nothing they could do was working. They
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: get the ball, the carry for a few phases, they
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: lose it forward, they conceive penalties, the scrum was not
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: working in the slightest flitting yours having a field day.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: They just don't seem to know how to play finals footing.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: I'm going to steal a boxing analogy here, So let's
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: say the heavyweight titles on the line when you go
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: to someone's backyard when you fight a champion, and the
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: Crusaders weren't champions, but given their history, given their finals pedigree,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: their record at home, you have to take the title
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: from them, right The second half, the Chiefs they just
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: they didn't and they also just didn't adapt their tactic.
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: Even when they brought on Josh Jacob and Xavier Rowe
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: who are more attacking minded playmakers, and McKenzie went to fullback,
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: They're still kicking the ball away and it's not working.
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: Change it, do something, have a crack. It just felt
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: like the Chiefs throughout that finals went away from what
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: worked for them during the year, that they became really
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: conservative and tights and they didn't have the ability to
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: adjust on the field.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: No, they didn't. And that was the bizarre thing I
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: thought from the Chiefs is that in the first half
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: they had a bit of pay from going direct. They
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: scored the first tries, scored two tries to one. Yep,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and Stevenson's won just before half timele though you know
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: went upstairs. That's right, But I think you look at
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: it and go they went into these shells at halftime
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: a little bit and with you know, it looks like
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: it was that perhaps a prehaps the Crusaders found thought
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: there was going to be some opportunities putting the under
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: aerial contests and just playing that right areas of the ground.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't be to respond to that. And that's what
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: the coaches said at halftime. They are exactly right, because
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: the Chiefs didn't know how to fight the way out
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: of that. They, as I said before, they felt like
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: they were drowning and just trying to stay above the surface.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: I saw a colleague doll in Cleveland. Is newslet to
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: calm similar analogy to you. You know that Clad went
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: on to talk about staying in the fight. You actually
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: got to take the fight. It's not about staying in
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: the fight. You've got to be in the fight. You
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: gonna be the fight. You're gonna be attacking the opposition.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: And at no point in that game, especially after halftime,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: did it feel like they were doing that.
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: We have to do something to challenge the way that
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Crusaders want to play. They want to squeeze you at
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: the set piece, they want to pin you down in
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: your danger zone, they want to extract penalties and suffocate you.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: And at no points did it feel like the Chiefs
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: were controlling the flow, the momentum, the narrative of that game.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: And they really needed just someone to grab it by
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: the scruff, whether it was fifty twenty two sorry or
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: some sort of breakout or just try something new. And
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know whether it was that the pressure of
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: wanting to break through so badly.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the Crusader's got all the pictures that
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: they wanted in a dream scenario. This is what the
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Chiefs presented to them. The Crusaders knew exactly how to
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: combat it, one of those scrump nalities, gone on a roll,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: put themselves into the right areas of the ground. I
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: mean the Crusaders credit to the Chiefs defense. They couldn't
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: get past them, but they were just basically had set
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: up camp inside the twenty two for most of the
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: second spell.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, to be fair, it's freezing. There's a
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: lot of moisture on the ball, which makes handling difficult.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: So it's not set up. You're not playing it at
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: indoor stadium, it's not set up for expensive you know
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: chance you're attacking rugby. But if it's not working, try something.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: I just didn't feel like the Chiefs were brave enough
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: to have a real crack. So that will hurt.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: It will hurt big time.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Because Clayton McMillan now departs, we expect Johnny Gibbs to
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: come him, but that roster is largely going to remain
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: the same and that who doo that hurdle, The baggage
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: stays with those players. And I think you mentioned the
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: week before that the Crusaders know how to win those
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: games and the Chiefs just don't. And until you break
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: through and do that, and the longer that goes on,
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: the harder it is to break.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: It really is. And you know for Clayton McMillan, so close,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: so far, now goes to Munster and you know they're
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: not winning a Super Rugby title. Thing can hang around
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: you think Ian Foster didn't win one with the Chiefs,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: got to one final, got belted. Todd Blackadder got to
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: two finals, should have won one of those, probably against
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: the war Retars. Again, you know, if he wins one
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: of those, his career trajectory changes a little bit.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: Leo McDonald.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: Leo McDonald, you know, didn't get there with the Blues
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: and now you question whether we're he sort of goes
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: in the coaching ranks, whether it's overseas or whatever. So
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: winning one of them can change things for you if
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: you were a coach, and he hasn't been able to
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: do that. But it is opportunity for him to go
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: to Munster and you know you're up against it there
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: in Leinster, you know, taking it on over there and
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: taking Monster, sorry, taking Leinster on and the rest of
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: the u RC etc.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: In that comp Yeah, if you take a step back
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: and look at McMillan's tenure as a whole, he came
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: in as an interim coach, transformed that franchise from the
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: depths of the Warren Gatlin era, leaves with the best
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: winning percentage of any Chiefs coach, including Dave Rennie who
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: won back to back titles in twenty twelve twenty thirteen.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: There's so many good things that McMillan did. The Chiefs
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: have been the most consistent team the past three years,
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: but there's no civilware.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: No.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: Then this is professional sport, and so you would have
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: to say despite all those achievements, Stock does dip and
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: unfortunately that's going to be a bit of a weight
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: that he's going to carry rounds. Hopefully he can go
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: to Monster and do good things, but as you say,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: it's a very challenging climate, a different style of rugby,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: and so he's going to have to adapt to that
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: and it'll be interesting to see how it goes.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: Conversely, the Crusaders Rob Pennie does come back and won
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: a title, and so surely he stays on now.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not convinced that he is hearing from a
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: post game. He was very reluctant to make a decision
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: and kind of intimated there was some temptation to go
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: out on top won the title.
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: I did see some coments from Man's Bridge that they
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: weren't seeking another coach though, so maybe that means that
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: it's internal. I certainly expect Penny to have I would.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Say he probably will, but it was just interesting hearing
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: his comments go that he wasn't competed and there was
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: some temptation maybe to go out on top and leave
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: it there. I mean, he went from zero to hero
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: and the space of one season. I saw Jason Pye,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: our colleague, saying that he basically was getting a standing
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: ovation after full time and you know who would have
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: thought that twelve months ago and christ Church. So I'm
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: sure for him there's probably a temptation maybe to go
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: one more and Takahat or one yew Zealand Stadium, the
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: new venue there, maybe lead the team and then hand
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: the reins over the following year and twenty twenty seven
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: to Brad Moore or whether it might be coming there,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: I suspect you'll probably go for at least one more.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. And what do you think that
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: means for the Crusaders? How do you think they are
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: placed to kick on next year? Imagine the bulk of
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: that squad's going to remain the same. They get Lester back,
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: and when you've brought in that even more. This was
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: an incredibly tight Super Ereguy season. We saw more upsets,
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: more jeopardy than any time in recent memory. The Blues
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: could or would have should have beaten the Crusaders in
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: christ Church. Yep, there wasn't a lot between the teams,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: so the Crusaders broke through in that title. How do
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: you think that leaves in place for next year?
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: I think relatively well placed. They'll lose James O'Connor, who
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: came in for a one season cameo. You know, after
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: all that he's done throughout his career, he finally gets
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: a Super Rugby title right at the end before he
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: goes and joins Lisa, and I think he's been a
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: very very good servant for the Crusaders for this year.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: They've got James White who's played a bit of NBC,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: who I expect will probably come in. So that makes
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: now to Kimita potentially to come back from injury. There's
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: a couple of questions. Know Ethan Blackaday, as we mentioned
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: in the All Blacks half of the pod, not resigned
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: beyond the season with New Zealand Rugby to my knowledge
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: as yet, does listening out on the All Blacks, given
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: some pauls for thought, does he go to Japan? You know,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: cash and there. You wouldn't blame him given his injury
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: record for doing so. And maybe if he doesn't crack
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks, perhaps it's time for him to go abroad.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: He'd be a loss for them. Tom Christie, you know,
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: is aging up, but I s expect he'll be back
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: next year. Oli Methis Olly mathis maybe well in the mix,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: you know, no better advertisement for come come down and
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: join us and then winning the title on the weekend.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Brandon en were I too getting Nick Bailey he's resigning
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: for one more year. Dallas. They've got the bulk of
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: that squad in Lockton for next year.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: And it must be said that it was an inspired
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: choice to make David Havili the captain. The captain, I
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: think he was a massive part of that team this year.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: He was and took a lot of pressure off those
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: young playmakers Taha Kima, Rivers Raihana took a lot of
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: pressure off them and did a lot of the playmaking work.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and apparently played that final with his kellies hanging
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: on Y three as well, So pretty banged up, but
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: he wouldn't be the only one. Scott barre at today.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: A couple of stitches on the eye that's been split
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: a few times and grazes everywhere. So it was a
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: very physical, combative match.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Was it a good match?
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: Look, if you're watching that as a neutral, No, there
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: are extenuating circumstances in terms of the conditions and finals
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: and the magnitude of that game. I think you know,
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: if you look back and watch the World Cup final,
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: was that a great adversement for the sport? Maybe not
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: with the way it's been officiated as well, that that
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: comes into it. So if you're trying to market the sport,
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: that's the pinnacle of super rugby too, non rugby fans
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: as a tough sell. Three points in the seventies something
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: minute in the second half, you know, engrossing for somebody
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: who's invested in it like we are, or you know,
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Crusaders Chiefs fans. Sure, it might have you on the
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: edge of your seat, but otherwise I think as a spectacle,
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: not great.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: I was workshopping this with you on the uber back.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: I think we need to increase the value of point
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: that tries in rugby. Again, they did it in the
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: early nineties, from four to five. I think to promote
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: more attacking rugby, you go from five to six. Conversion
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: remains two, penalties remain three. But if you're going to
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: have double the points for a penalty by scoring a try,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: may promote more attacking rugby. And that at the end
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: of that, I think is what we want. May not
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: be what the entire world wants. You know, some of
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: the Northern Hemisphere revolves around who can kick the best
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: penalty goals. But I think to promote attacking rugby, maybe
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: going to six points for a try could be something
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: with looking.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: At yeah, I think it's worthy of a discussion that
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: the other point here is a worked right. That style
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: of rugby won the Crusaders the title, So why what
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: was the encouragement to go away from that? So and
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: they're not alone if you look, you know, across the
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: world game it is quite a homogeneous. It's very structured,
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: it's very planned, and you almost need an agitator, somebody
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: out of the box to come in like Wayne Smith
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: to a degree with the black Ferns and just promotes
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: free flowing offloads to break up that style. Super rugby
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: was brilliant this year, but when it did when winter hit,
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: when finals hits, it did revert to very tight, very contested,
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: very direct, very limited from a pure spectacle point of view.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Is that the way that finals just go though, And
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: you know Super rugby finals haven't always been about attack,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: you know, thinking the fold final, I mean it was
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: a great night, but the highlight of this Hurricanes game
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen was a tight game decided by a
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: drop goal. You know, maybe there is just finals for
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: and teams become a custom that you can play with
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: gay bandon for fifteen straight weeks, but when the rubber
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: hits the road, you've actually got to tighten up and
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: play some rugby.
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a lot of truth.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Well not play some rugby, if you get my draft year.
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, to be fair, there were surprising moments
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: in that game where both the Crusaders and Chiefs turned
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: down shots at goal and had a crack when perhaps
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: taking the points in a big game would have been
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: the better option. So it's not like they're not trying
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: to attack. But even in those instances, you're promptly looking
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: at like a mall tray, which isn't the most entertaining.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: So maybe rugby needs to do more to promote that
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: style of rugby.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: But you're right.
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: When the crunch comes and everything's on the line, naturally
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: it becomes more tight intense.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: A couple of things to wrap up, tip and comp
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: You picked the Chiefs, I picked the Crusaders. I think
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: this is the first time I've won in the three
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: years we've been doing this. I went fifty eight point
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: five to fifty point five. Well, well, thank you very much.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Three two ones, Nick Bierley, Yeah, well yeah you can.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: You can get in touch with them and sort that out.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: MVP medal, Ardie Savia twenty five, Boden Barrett fourteen, Hoskins
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: are two to twelve. None of those players can get there.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: Three two ones for me, I'm going to Flitch and
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: you all for three, Will Jordan for two and Rivers
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: Rayhannah for one and Rivers Rayhannah got the MVP final
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: of the game, but I'm giving all my threetwy Ons
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: to the Crusaders.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: I agree with chel Was. I'm not sure whether Sky
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: or who picked that Man of the match. Rivers played well,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: but for a prop to play eighty minutes to recover
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: from two scrump penalties play that long with a knee
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: injury our standing effort, so he's hand down, hands down
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: should have been Man of the Match. I'm giving two
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: to Quinn, t to Pie I thought he was very strong,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: faded in the second half but still put his case forwards.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to give one to Christian Leo Wady
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: who has been superb all year.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we ended up with about forty five
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: players all up getting MVP medal votes throughout the season.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: So there we go. Was spread around to for a bit,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: but Ardie Savia outs on top. Couple of things to
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: wrap up before we do say goodbye, and Rapey Direct.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Ardie, your piece last week in the New
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: Zealand Herald with some interesting stuff around his contracts and
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: what he was offered by I will turn down, perhaps
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: is the better word, by going to Werner PACIFICA and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: New Zealand Rugby not offering the full top up. Just
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: explain and I guess you will take on what you've
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: been able to report.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's an interesting discussion point, isn't it.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: So Miana are not in New Zealand franchise and so
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: this was a unique situation, unprecedented in that no All
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: Black let alone one of the highest paid, most valued
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: figures in the New Zealand game recent role Player of
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: the Year going to a non New Zealand franchise and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: clearly that sparked a lot of concern from New Zealand Rugby.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: They were concerned about Miana's coaching, their high performance setup,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: their facilities. They felt that Ardie Severe's game would suffer
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: and he wouldn't be fit for purpose for the All Blacks. Now,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: when you look at that with a reflective lens, about
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: what transpired, Artie becoming the super Rugby MVP with two
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: weeks remaining, the.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: Rapey Direct MVP meddles right, very prestigious, prestigious honor.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: His impacts in terms of inspiring and improving Mowana and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: how much that enhance the overall competition. It doesn't look great.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: And so the two contracts that Artie was presented with
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: were you stay at the Kings and your all black
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: top up is guaranteed you go to Mowana and twenty
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: percent of that which I understand twenty percent of artie
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: salary is close to two hundred thousand dollars is at
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: risk because of those concerns that they had. So one
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: of the riddle me this, So, having been through this process,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: what do you make of the process, and because Artie's
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: been through it, if there are other all blacks, and
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: there have been others such as Antonina Brown and to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: a lesser degree to Buvai who fluted with going to Moe,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: Richie mu Wanga will be a target when he returns home.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: With Artie pushing through that process, do you think it
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: would be easier in future for an all black to
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: go to Mowana.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Well, I think hopefully Artie's paved the way for more
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: all blacks to go to more Onana Pacifica.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: They are kept because they do have provisions there for
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: a maximum of three current all blacks in their squad.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: That's right, they should be those three all blacks should
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: be treated. I would have thought the same as any
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: other all black that wants to go there. Mate, Look,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: there's probably some handicap that needs to be put there
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: when you've got the five foundation franchises and w Wana
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: does stand outside and if you want one to stand
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: on it's own two feet, you've got to let him
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: do that work at some point. But it was a drastic,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: you know, dressedic drop in terms of what he was
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: going to be well did get paid in the Pacific,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: So I think the natural cap is those three numbers.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: You can not go franti every player, and surely for
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: those three players you can come to some sort of
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: agreement that this is what you are going to get paid,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: and it is going to be fair. It's going to
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: be market rates what you would get at another New
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: Zealand Super Rugby team. I get that those teams want
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: to protect their patch and various things, sure, but you
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: can't do that by degridating one a PACIFICA. On the
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: other side, there needs to be a balanced and I
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: get where both parties are coming from to an extent,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: but I just think this is probably the wrong way
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: to go about it.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Moana's purpose is to serve some more and Tonga
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: and to promote players to those national teams. But there
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: is that provision for three all blacks, and if that
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: provision is there, then they have to be allowed to
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: recruit and explore that and it needs to be an
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: even playing field. I can understand some of those concerns,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: but you would hope now with the season that they've had.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: I think there's still some fuinancial concerns in the background
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: around Mouana, But on the field, surely they've proven themselves.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: Well I think so. But then again, this is why
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: we don't see all blacks being selected or available to
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: go to being sects from say the Warratars or the
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Western Force or whatever it is, because New Zealand Rugby
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: can't control or doesn't have a full overview of the
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: high performance systems, their facilities, everything like that. With five
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: New Zealand franchises they do it. With Mwana they do not.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: With the four Australian teams they do not either. So
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: this is why we don't see all blacks going there.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: Because New Zealand Rugby likes seeing and likes having the
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: full knowledge that these players are going to work without
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: a framework. They're going to be using our facilities. If
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: we need to take the rest week, then we know
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: that these franchises are part of us essentially, and we
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: can go Adi Saviga needs a rest week this week,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: or you know, they can manipulate it that way. So
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: it's sort of a half way house where it sits
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: for wea pacific moment.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I see what you're saying. Artie played I think
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: twelve or fourteen games from one of this year. Oh
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: they've rested it. Yeah for sure, Yeah, played big minutes.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: But then so Diriquoiwanne for the Blues, So it wasn't
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: like this year there was a hard and fast rule
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: with that. And I think Scott Robertson went and visited
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: Wuana just like he did the other New Zealand franchises.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: So I think a lot of those concerns about the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: high performance, the coaching, whether Artie would be flogged, whether
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: he would go backwards for the All Blacks, hopefully they've
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: been alleviated for others should they want to go there
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: in future.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Before we wrap up on rugby directs, form All
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: Blacks coach Ian Foster releasing his long awaited biography last week,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Autobiography and details obviously some of the turmoil that went on.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: It was tumultuous. It's a fun word between his tenure
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: from twenty twenty to twenty twenty three. We won't get
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: into all the details of the book which I have read,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: but one thing that stood out Liam was a passage
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: around the twenty twenty three World Cup. Now, I think
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: we talked about the podcast. At the time, you had
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: a very good source that was giving you information around
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: the team selection. In his book, Ian Foster details his
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: frustrations with that details a phone call that he had
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: to you, which ARACLESE sitting alongside you at I think
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: christ As you report when that conversation was made. But regardless,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: I guess it's probably an opportunity to just explain how
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: not your source or anything like that, but how it's
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: your job to report information that comes your way. It's
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: what you're paid to do. So maybe tap the floor.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: I hope you enjoyed Fozzy's books, and I haven't read
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: it in its entirety. I've seen a lot of excerpts
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: and listen to various interviews, so I think what it is.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: It was Fozzy's chance to share his side of the story,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: right everything from his perspective, and from that sense, nothing's wrong.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: It's his view on the world. Was a very tumultuous
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: time and challenging and precedented in many ways. So he
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: said that chance, and that's great. I hope people enjoy
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: the book. From my perspective, yeah, that the pressure point
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: around the team was challenging because there was a lot
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: of tension around it, a lot of frustrations from the
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: All Blacks, a lot of misinformation about where that was
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: coming from. And yeah, I think the takeaway point is
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: that as journalists we are neutral. We as New Zealanders.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: Of course you want the All Blacks to do well,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: but we're not supporters. And the team news in that
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: instance is intriguing information. It's valued from a news point
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: of view. It's information the public want to know. And
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: there's a couple of points I want to make. One
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: is that the the Orbles traditionally release their team around
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: midday Thursday. The Springboks successive World Cup champions typically released
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: their team two days earlier on a Tuesday. So if
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: it's that big issue, why has it not affected the
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: Spring Box. If it's that much of a competitive advantage,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: why do the spring Box not delay their team? And
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: the other point I would make is look, Fozzy to
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: his credit, I don't have an issue with the way
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: he conducted himself. We had a very fair conversation. He
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: put his viewpoint across. I said, look, I'm just doing
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: my job and I'm going to continue to do it.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: But there were other individuals around that team that did
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: not conduct themselves in an appropriate way in any way,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: shape or form. So I'm very comfortable with the way
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: that I carried out the duty to my job in
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: that time.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: That's what you were editors, your bosses are asking your
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: viewers to break rugby news. That's why you're employed by
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: the New Zealand Herald, it's why you come on this podcast.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: And when rugby news is given to you, it's your
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: duty to put it across to the public for consumption.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: That that's a journalist's role. And look, that's challenging at
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: times because in any good journalist builds relationships and through
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: that time Fozzy and I used to have a great relationship,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: but because of the way results went, that sould and
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: that was the nature of the beast. I didn't feel
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: like I was ever personal. He would probably have a
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: different view. But it was a very wild ride, wasn't
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: it in terms of results, change of coaches, raise, a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: potentially coming in not coming in, and then yeah, the
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: team situation. So there are a lot of tensions around
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: that time.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: They certainly were, and it's the point you make just
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: to wrap up around the fact that we're not cheerleaders. Yes,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: from a New Zealand perspective, great to see our team
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: winning on the national international stage. But as soon as
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: you conduct an interview, you're working your job. You're behind
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: a keyboard. I'm jumping on the commentary. I'm trying to
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: be as neutral as possible. You don't know who's tuning in,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: you don't know who's reading it, and it's your duty,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: i think, to your listeners, who are readers, whoever it
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: might be, to go down that middle line as much
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: as possible. Yes, we're all asked to write opinion pieces
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: on how things are tracking. But when you are behind
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: a keyboard and reporting the facts, that's what That's where
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: the line is, you know, and that's where you just
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: deliver the facts, not you know, any sort of cheerleading
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: or you know, national pride or anything like that that
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: varies from country to country, don't get me wrong, but
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: certainly how I see my job and how you see
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: your job as well.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, that doesn't mean that you're a robot
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: or you're unemotional. I've been in and you've been There's
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: Alice Park where the All Blacks have great comebacks and
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: you're one of few kiwis there and and man like,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: that's an incredible experience. And when you're at an event
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: today and you're hearing do Carefi and Timothyvanawa and Fabian
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: Holand talk about how they found out the news are
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: becoming an All Black for the first time. When you
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: see all Blacks being emotional singing the anthem, of course
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: that stirs something in you and you're happy for them
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: and you want them to do well. But you're not
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: a member of that team, right, And our role is
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: to report that we get paid by a media company.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: We're not in the All Blacks, So there is a
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: differentiation that needs to be made there.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well said that'll do us for Rugby director.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: It has been a bumper old episode. Hope you've enjoyed it.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: We will be back next week I think from Test
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: City we'll plan to do it Dunedin looking forward to it.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: Strapping on the on the ride with us throughout the
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: All Black season very much looking forward to that. Get underwear.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: If any Southerners Dunedin iights have got any recommendations for
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: a soup or something very still getting over hungry hoboes, hoboes.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the cheese rolls and a bit of soup didn't.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: It went down to treats and haven't been able to
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: replace that. So hit us on the socials if you
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: want to get in touch and tell us where we
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: should be directing our lunchtime spins. Now we does. For
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: a whole week I could to see our friends had
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: happened health tackling all your aches and pains from a
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: sport and worker thanks to Lasting Bars English. We will
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: see you next week.
• 1:13:44
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• 1:13:47
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• 1:13:49
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