Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 369: The Real Indiana Jones

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Ep. 369: The Real Indiana Jones · The MeatEater Podcast

0:08
Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,
0:12
Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and, in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast,
0:18
Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by first like creating proven,
0:23
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel, from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear
0:27
Speaker 1: for every hunt. First Light, go farther, stay longer. All right, buddy,
0:35
Speaker 1: we have we have such an interesting guest today that
0:37
Speaker 1: we're gonna skip all the normal juvenile bullshit we talked
0:40
Speaker 1: about on top, thank goodness. Yeah, and he's like, I'm out.
0:43
Speaker 1: I'm believing now. This is my kind of podcast. Actually,
0:47
Speaker 1: gonna skip all the juvenile all the things about a
0:50
Speaker 1: guy that wrote in all this stuff about falling into
0:54
Speaker 1: a pit toilet, what have you, tough meat, I don't know.
0:59
Speaker 1: That made waves, though, that pit toilet trying to get
1:01
Speaker 1: punt gun shells manufactured. Like none of that, none of that.
1:08
Speaker 1: The special guests I'm talking about is Denny J Seymour
1:12
Speaker 1: Ph d who, Danny, I'm gonna tell you how I
1:14
Speaker 1: know about you. I'M gonna tee it up in two ways.
1:18
Speaker 1: All Right, uh, now and then it's something will happen
1:23
Speaker 1: in the news and five, six, ten people will all
1:28
Speaker 1: send me the same article. Okay, Um, the article about
1:36
Speaker 1: the discovery of a battle site, of a fight, a
1:44
Speaker 1: skirmish Um from the mid fif hundreds in southern Arizona
1:52
Speaker 1: between the members of the Coronado Expedition in native tribes
1:58
Speaker 1: in the area. Uh, a lot of my friends thought
2:02
Speaker 1: that would tickle my fancy and I read the article
2:06
Speaker 1: and I sent it to Krin and I said we
2:09
Speaker 1: need to find this person. I thought you'd say no
2:12
Speaker 1: for some reason. You know what? I thought you'd say
2:14
Speaker 1: no because you're being so secrety in the article. That's
2:18
Speaker 1: how we archaeologists are to protect the sites. But then,
2:23
Speaker 1: you know, then we talked and it was good. Well,
2:27
Speaker 1: I'm still in the middle of research and normally I
2:30
Speaker 1: don't divulge until I'm done. So normally it would be
2:33
Speaker 1: five years into the project at least before I would
2:38
Speaker 1: tell anyone other than the crew about what we found. When? Well,
2:43
Speaker 1: in this case we did because we needed to raise
2:44
Speaker 1: money for the documentary film and also research. So uh,
2:49
Speaker 1: so we decided to go ahead and announce it sooner,
2:52
Speaker 1: and so with that comes a lot of you know,
2:56
Speaker 1: awareness and people say, Oh, you need to make sure
2:59
Speaker 1: people are not following you to the site. Well, so
3:01
Speaker 1: far nobody's done that, but you've still kept it under wraps.
3:04
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, people don't know where it is yet, except
3:06
Speaker 1: for the crew, and they're scorning the secrecy. I mean,
3:09
Speaker 1: our guys will find out a challenge. You won't be
3:13
Speaker 1: done recording this and they'll be they're digging around. Well,
3:15
Speaker 1: if you come you have to help dig. So so
3:19
Speaker 1: here's the way I want to set up. So someone
3:20
Speaker 1: might be sitting there and we've teased this episode on
3:24
Speaker 1: previous podcast episodes, but I'm gonna set up and then
3:27
Speaker 1: you're gonna you can, you can take off and run on.
3:29
Speaker 1: I set up to the best my ability. Um, why
3:34
Speaker 1: I'm interested in the Coronado expedition, and it has to
3:37
Speaker 1: do with and I want and I want you to
3:38
Speaker 1: link this all together. I learned about the Coronado expedition
3:42
Speaker 1: when I was reading about what I view to be
3:45
Speaker 1: kind of like perhaps the craziest story in early American history,
3:51
Speaker 1: which is the saga of Kabayza Day Vaca. Yep, Cabeza,
3:58
Speaker 1: day Vaca. What year was at the net Navarrez expedition? Yeah, thirties, early.
4:04
Speaker 1: This guy goes up a lot of hundreds of them, Spaniards,
4:11
Speaker 1: going land in Florida and eventually getting a shipwreck get
4:17
Speaker 1: killed off. Bad things happened to him, to the point
4:20
Speaker 1: where three of these guys walk. Four of them walk
4:27
Speaker 1: over the course of years, spending time in captivity with tribes,
4:34
Speaker 1: spending time with tribes thinking that they're sort of like
4:38
Speaker 1: healers and semi deities. They're eating milkshakes made out of
4:43
Speaker 1: people's ashes and they walk all the way to Mexico.
4:50
Speaker 1: It's like becomes slaves, but at one point Cabas Day
4:55
Speaker 1: VOCA becomes the first European to lay eyes on a Buffalo,
5:01
Speaker 1: probably around Austin or Dallas Texas. That's why that was
5:07
Speaker 1: my intersection with him, because I was researching that subject.
5:12
Speaker 1: That led me to some passages from the coronado expedition
5:18
Speaker 1: where they make it up into Kansas Um and they're
5:23
Speaker 1: describing not only the hunters they encounter and and out
5:29
Speaker 1: of the Coronado expedition comes the only reference to something
5:32
Speaker 1: that I've ever read in my entire life. They describe people,
5:35
Speaker 1: they describe buffalo hunters who are skinning buffalo and sharping
5:40
Speaker 1: their flint knives on their teeth. I've never read that anywhere,
5:45
Speaker 1: and he describes the the down wind end of a lake,
5:51
Speaker 1: the bank being formed by just bones of stuff that
5:56
Speaker 1: would drown or whatever in the lake and wind up
5:59
Speaker 1: being there or like various members of that expedition. And
6:02
Speaker 1: that's really as much as I knew about the whole thing.
6:04
Speaker 1: I didn't know where they were, but I remember being
6:07
Speaker 1: shocked by the fact the Coronado was on the American
6:13
Speaker 1: Great Plains two and forty years prior to Lewis and Clark,
6:20
Speaker 1: which should be the difference between us standing here now
6:23
Speaker 1: and the French and Indian war. That really puts it
6:27
Speaker 1: in perspective, doesn't and what in the hell right were
6:31
Speaker 1: they doing up there exactly? So your job now is
6:37
Speaker 1: to Um like what were they doing up there and,
6:41
Speaker 1: if you don't mind like a little bit, make the
6:42
Speaker 1: connection between the how the conquissator rumor mill spins like
6:50
Speaker 1: how cobs a vodka could starve his way across America.
6:55
Speaker 1: And somehow this turns into like Oh yeah, but cities
6:59
Speaker 1: of gold old if I had just gone another day's
7:03
Speaker 1: journey to the blank. You know well. You know the
7:07
Speaker 1: connection between Caves Devaka and the three people with him
7:12
Speaker 1: and the Cornado expedition is that when they got back
7:15
Speaker 1: they had this incredible story to tell and they had
7:18
Speaker 1: heard of people to the north who had cotton and
7:21
Speaker 1: multi story buildings and metal bells and so on, and
7:26
Speaker 1: there were already rumors in European society and also in uh,
7:31
Speaker 1: the Mexico area and so on, about seven cities and
7:36
Speaker 1: this the, you know, the origin place of the Aztecs.
7:40
Speaker 1: And then in UM UM in European society there was
7:44
Speaker 1: there were stories about places of riches and so on.
7:49
Speaker 1: CABSIVACA never actually said there was gold or didn't expect
7:53
Speaker 1: that there would be uh, but there were rumors in
7:59
Speaker 1: you know how rumors developed, because basically they had found gold,
8:05
Speaker 1: lots of it, in the Inca area and in the
8:07
Speaker 1: Aztec area, in central Mexico and in Peru, and so
8:11
Speaker 1: they kind of expected that there would be riches elsewhere
8:16
Speaker 1: on the continent. So it really wasn't that unexpected that
8:19
Speaker 1: that kind of imagination would start going wild and that
8:23
Speaker 1: rumors would start. Now a stave on the black more
8:28
Speaker 1: slave at the time was with Kabasi DEVACA and he
8:31
Speaker 1: was the one that was selected. Apparently he was freed
8:34
Speaker 1: before going uh. He was selected to lead FRA Marcos
8:38
Speaker 1: Deniz in thirty nine north to do a reconnaissance and
8:43
Speaker 1: uh Coronado himself, escus de Coronado, was responsible for outfitting him,
8:49
Speaker 1: and the idea is he was supposed to go ahead
8:51
Speaker 1: and see what was up there and see if the
8:54
Speaker 1: rumors about gold in the seven cities of ce blow
8:58
Speaker 1: and so on, we're true. Can you tell you what
9:01
Speaker 1: that what that seven cities of Sebla? You encountered that?
9:05
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, there were rumors of seven
9:09
Speaker 1: cities and of course seven is important in the Christian
9:14
Speaker 1: religion for a variety of reasons. Um and Um, the
9:21
Speaker 1: Aztecs and others had stories from ancient times about having
9:25
Speaker 1: originated from the North uh, and so everybody had a
9:29
Speaker 1: little piece of, you know, the rumor, the story that
9:34
Speaker 1: the imaginative myth to put together. And so basically it
9:39
Speaker 1: was connected to Sibila or Zuni. Uh. They first went
9:45
Speaker 1: to Howieku, which is among the Zuni Pueblos uh, and
9:50
Speaker 1: that's where they thought it was. So that was the focus.
9:54
Speaker 1: So they got there and realized there was no gold
9:56
Speaker 1: and then they kept pursuing it elsewhere. They were looking
9:59
Speaker 1: for go all they were looking for other things as well,
10:02
Speaker 1: and they well, they say looking for I mean they
10:04
Speaker 1: were fixing to go take it. Yes, they were just
10:06
Speaker 1: like in central Mexico and in UH, South America. But see,
10:10
Speaker 1: they weren't just looking for gold either. So they were
10:14
Speaker 1: looking for high enough and native population, one so that
10:19
Speaker 1: they could convert them. That's what the priests wanted to
10:21
Speaker 1: do and that was kind of one of the things
10:24
Speaker 1: that they were charged with. But they wanted enough, high
10:27
Speaker 1: enough native population that they could exploit them for tribute.
10:32
Speaker 1: That's how they were going to get rich and they
10:33
Speaker 1: were going to set up in Comiendas, and that's one
10:35
Speaker 1: of the reasons that the expedition was considered a failure,
10:39
Speaker 1: because there weren't enough high enough densities of natives for
10:44
Speaker 1: all of the high ranking Spaniards who went along to
10:48
Speaker 1: have an in Comienda have um a large enough area
10:53
Speaker 1: with high enough native population that could support them with
10:57
Speaker 1: tribute payments and so on. A another reason, apparently, is
11:01
Speaker 1: they thought that this was connected, that are part of
11:05
Speaker 1: the world was connected to Asians, so they hoped to
11:08
Speaker 1: find a route through so they could establish markets there.
11:11
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that people have been focusing
11:14
Speaker 1: for ages on the gold aspect. So historians more recently
11:19
Speaker 1: have been saying, well, it's not really the gold they
11:21
Speaker 1: were after, but in fact our main site, the first
11:26
Speaker 1: site we found, is at a major gold source. So
11:29
Speaker 1: the people who got left behind what the first site
11:32
Speaker 1: we found is not only a battle site but it
11:34
Speaker 1: was a it's called the villa of San Hieronimo and
11:37
Speaker 1: it was the third rendition of that where they left
11:41
Speaker 1: some of the Spaniards behind as a supply base, but
11:44
Speaker 1: also a villa in Spanish is town, and so basically
11:49
Speaker 1: it was the formation of a town and interestingly it's
11:54
Speaker 1: at a gold source. It's at one of the best
11:57
Speaker 1: gold sources in the area. Can you remember to talk
11:59
Speaker 1: a bit about how sadistic the people that ran that? Oh, yeah,
12:04
Speaker 1: I'll remember. If I don't remember, remind me. But here's
12:07
Speaker 1: one more thing about the gold. It turns out that
12:10
Speaker 1: we have the satellite of other Coronado artifacts around. They're
12:15
Speaker 1: not really sites, they're isolated things so far, but two
12:19
Speaker 1: of them are at other locations where gold was so
12:22
Speaker 1: the people that got left behind me have actually got
12:26
Speaker 1: more gold out of this area than the people who
12:29
Speaker 1: went forward, and they were resentful that they got left
12:32
Speaker 1: behind because they wanted to go and and find all
12:34
Speaker 1: these riches and have all this success and be part
12:37
Speaker 1: of the exploration, the adventure and so on. But they
12:41
Speaker 1: were working gold deposits. So there was also a lot
12:44
Speaker 1: of stuff in their correspondence they called they called buffalo
12:47
Speaker 1: cattle or Bison. They call them cattle, and they would
12:51
Speaker 1: throw out that there could be they would throw out
12:55
Speaker 1: that that could be like an industry of exploitation. In fact,
13:00
Speaker 1: Juanharamo in his account mentioned that and uh talked about
13:05
Speaker 1: how you could get back to, uh, new Spain, back
13:10
Speaker 1: and forth via a shorter route to exploit that as
13:13
Speaker 1: a resource, and that is what he thought was the
13:16
Speaker 1: most valuable resource in the area, other than all of
13:19
Speaker 1: these other things that I just mentioned. Yeah, they just
13:22
Speaker 1: encountered staggering numbers of them. Yes, so how many? How many?
13:25
Speaker 1: Would it makes sense, before we get too far into
13:28
Speaker 1: the actual coronado expedition, just to back up, just to
13:30
Speaker 1: talk about like the Vera Cruz and like Spanish settlements
13:36
Speaker 1: down in Mexico and just really established that before we
13:40
Speaker 1: move north. Uh. Yeah, you mentioned that they had been
13:45
Speaker 1: striking it rich here and there. Oh, sure. So, of course,
13:49
Speaker 1: when Cortez came into the Mexico area, he actually established
13:54
Speaker 1: downsite or via at Vera Cruz and use that as
13:57
Speaker 1: a base. And what he did, and sorry, what year
14:00
Speaker 1: was that? That was fifteen. I can't remember exactly. Fifteen,
14:05
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, something like that. Um. So, he established a
14:10
Speaker 1: town site and established a town council and everything. And
14:14
Speaker 1: the reason he did that, did that was that he
14:16
Speaker 1: could separate himself from his sponsor in Cuba, and that way, uh,
14:22
Speaker 1: they voted him as the leader and so on, and he,
14:25
Speaker 1: as a result, was able to uh, correspond directly with
14:30
Speaker 1: the king, and so that's how he was able. I
14:32
Speaker 1: mean it was a political move which was really kind
14:34
Speaker 1: of interesting exactly. and Uh so it worked out really
14:38
Speaker 1: well for him and it didn't work out well for
14:41
Speaker 1: the natives that were in the area. But bottom line
14:43
Speaker 1: is that was like incredibly rich. And you know, you
14:47
Speaker 1: mentioned before about people being where did this rumor come
14:50
Speaker 1: from and so on. Well, think about it. The first
14:55
Speaker 1: encounters in the central Mexico area, it was so rich.
14:59
Speaker 1: People made I mean they were like billionaires all of
15:03
Speaker 1: a sudden, overnight, you know, I mean within a few
15:06
Speaker 1: months just from ransack and the gold out of I
15:09
Speaker 1: mean it was just incredible. And also in Peru, the
15:13
Speaker 1: Incan Empire, and they were like taking finished gold, though
15:16
Speaker 1: they weren't taken. I mean I'm sure they probably got
15:18
Speaker 1: into mining, but they were like seizing, like taking gold
15:21
Speaker 1: that had already been used to form form into totems
15:25
Speaker 1: and monetary units. And well, that is true. So, first
15:29
Speaker 1: of all, gold wasn't the only thing they got. There
15:31
Speaker 1: was a lot of silver and other other items of value.
15:34
Speaker 1: But with respect to the gold, yeah, they had idols.
15:38
Speaker 1: They had religious idol. It shouldn't use the word idols
15:41
Speaker 1: because that's a Catholic way of looking at uh, you know,
15:45
Speaker 1: native uh sacred objects and so on. But basically they
15:49
Speaker 1: took there were rooms that were plastered with gold and
15:52
Speaker 1: they pulled that off. They took Um images uh that
15:57
Speaker 1: we would call saints today in the Catholic religion. They
15:59
Speaker 1: took them out of the rooms and pyramids and so
16:02
Speaker 1: on and melted those down. But they also had people
16:07
Speaker 1: uh mining, and you know, even Columbus did that, uh,
16:11
Speaker 1: and we see images of Um, you know, the miners
16:16
Speaker 1: working and so on and uh, there's actually one image
16:20
Speaker 1: that was created. That shows UH and uprising by natives
16:25
Speaker 1: pouring liquid gold down to Spaniards through, I mean because
16:30
Speaker 1: and and that's that's brutal. But the fact is is
16:33
Speaker 1: they were chopping off people's hands and noses down there,
16:37
Speaker 1: uh for not either not producing enough gold or for
16:41
Speaker 1: rising up, or for anything that they thought of as minor.
16:46
Speaker 1: The amount of body like when you get into the
16:48
Speaker 1: corn atole that tradition, the amount of body parts getting
16:51
Speaker 1: removed from people as punishments is just staggering. It is,
16:55
Speaker 1: it really is. And normally I thought that most of
16:58
Speaker 1: that happened down south, meaning south of the border, the
17:02
Speaker 1: current border, uh, when via Um, you know, when Cortes
17:07
Speaker 1: and Columbus and so on, we're doing their thing, and
17:09
Speaker 1: also in South America. But it's amazing how much of
17:11
Speaker 1: it occurred up here. And the thing that surprised me
17:14
Speaker 1: is that on our site it actually occurred. Now that
17:17
Speaker 1: we know where this Um site is. That's mentioned in
17:21
Speaker 1: the documents and we know where it is. It's amongst
17:24
Speaker 1: the Atham uh formerly known some of some authom are
17:28
Speaker 1: called Pema. They were all called Pima or various other
17:31
Speaker 1: names in the past. But Um, I work with people
17:34
Speaker 1: there near to son at San Javier, the San Javier
17:36
Speaker 1: district of the tone of octom nation, and they are
17:39
Speaker 1: the direct descendants of the people who met Coronado at
17:41
Speaker 1: this site. And when I told them about this, it
17:45
Speaker 1: was really difficult for me to tell them, because how
17:47
Speaker 1: do you tell somebody that their ancestors were treated so poorly?
17:51
Speaker 1: But it's also, Um, uh, empowering in a way, uh,
17:58
Speaker 1: because it's a way for them to understand some of
18:03
Speaker 1: the trauma that they now experience and where that comes from.
18:06
Speaker 1: It has much greater depth than even they thought, perhaps
18:11
Speaker 1: because nobody thought that Coronado actually had much of an
18:14
Speaker 1: encounter with the autum in southern Arizona. It's kind of
18:18
Speaker 1: a backwater area that you don't read about it if
18:21
Speaker 1: you read coronado documents. Basically they just passed through their stories.
18:24
Speaker 1: They always pretty much go up to sea blowers any
18:27
Speaker 1: end and skipped this whole area. Well, it turns out
18:29
Speaker 1: that the area where this site is, this first site
18:32
Speaker 1: I found, is one of the most important coronado sites and,
18:35
Speaker 1: like I said, it's called the Vo San Hieronimo and
18:38
Speaker 1: the atom. We're able to successfully repel the Spaniards. So
18:46
Speaker 1: it really is the first successful native American rebellion in
18:48
Speaker 1: the continental us, because they didn't come back. The Spaniards
18:51
Speaker 1: didn't come back for a hundred and forty years. That
18:54
Speaker 1: was enough time. Do you thought you really whooped them?
18:57
Speaker 1: For sure. I mean think about it. They came and
18:59
Speaker 1: we ran them off and now they're gone. Well, and
19:02
Speaker 1: it was only twelve years for the Pueblo revolt, which
19:04
Speaker 1: is considered the most successful one up to this point. So,
19:08
Speaker 1: but the amount of pride, like the Atham are considered
19:12
Speaker 1: later in time, they're discussed as being peaceful and docile,
19:15
Speaker 1: and I've always asked my auth and friends, do you
19:18
Speaker 1: think that's because a colonialism? The answers I don't know. Well,
19:21
Speaker 1: this shows that. My other research that shows that they
19:24
Speaker 1: were the best warriors in the sixteen, eighties and nineties
19:27
Speaker 1: and so on, shows that the extended even deeper in time.
19:31
Speaker 1: So they take incredible pride in knowing that their ancestors
19:35
Speaker 1: were phenomenal warriors, the best warriors in the region. They
19:38
Speaker 1: were respected by they were feared by the Apache in
19:42
Speaker 1: the sixteen, eighties and nineties. So, uh, the thing I
19:46
Speaker 1: didn't realize until I was reading a book about Coronado recently. Um,
19:52
Speaker 1: I've never quite put it together that these these people
19:55
Speaker 1: that we call concussed doors were kind of like semi freelance,
20:01
Speaker 1: like swashbucklers or pirates, right, like they had they reported
20:06
Speaker 1: to the king, but they had personal stuff to gain.
20:09
Speaker 1: It's not like, if you imagine the US military, right
20:12
Speaker 1: goes and does some action, it's entirely in service of
20:18
Speaker 1: the government. Meaning if you go and sack Saddam Hussein's palace,
20:23
Speaker 1: you don't keep half the ship and send half of
20:27
Speaker 1: it right, you don't get okay, you guys will divvy
20:30
Speaker 1: it up. You guys keep half, the government keeps half. Well,
20:33
Speaker 1: the Spanish, Spanish government didn't keep half, they kept a fifth.
20:37
Speaker 1: That's so. But these guys were like highly incentivized. Right,
20:41
Speaker 1: they were, but understand that. First of all, they were
20:44
Speaker 1: incentivized and that's one reason you have the muster rule
20:47
Speaker 1: at the beginning, and that's one reason why, uh, they
20:50
Speaker 1: put so many horses, livestock, armor, weapons, people into it.
20:56
Speaker 1: Because what is that? What is sorry, what is that
20:58
Speaker 1: word that you use? Muster roll. So basically it's everybody
21:04
Speaker 1: lined up and said what they what they were going
21:07
Speaker 1: to bring along. Okay, and and that got recorded by
21:11
Speaker 1: a scribe and the idea was that they were buying
21:13
Speaker 1: in in this sense. So, in other words, if they're investing,
21:16
Speaker 1: they're investing. So if they had another uh, you know,
21:21
Speaker 1: Aztec or Incan type discovery, they would have uh partition
21:27
Speaker 1: the find the wealth based on what they contributed. Okay,
21:32
Speaker 1: so it really was an investment. Yeah, like Hey, we're
21:34
Speaker 1: gonna ride up north see what we can sack and
21:39
Speaker 1: locate and find an exploit and develop. And who wants
21:44
Speaker 1: in and what are you willing to kick in on
21:47
Speaker 1: putting this trip together? Well, that's a somewhat irreverend, reverend,
21:53
Speaker 1: crude way to say it, but that's really what it
21:56
Speaker 1: came down to. But I don't know, they draped it
21:58
Speaker 1: in okay, okay, I don't want to go down the
22:03
Speaker 1: revisionist path, right, okay, I'm interested in context. They draped
22:07
Speaker 1: it in God and country. However, I think it was
22:10
Speaker 1: a much thinner with the concussed the doors, and you
22:14
Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm if you don't agree with this.
22:17
Speaker 1: I think the CONQUISS the doors there was a much
22:20
Speaker 1: thinner veneer than there were with other godden country actions
22:27
Speaker 1: that happened on the continent years later, like, uh, right now,
22:32
Speaker 1: with our oil and gas pursuits in other countries. I mean, yeah,
22:37
Speaker 1: I think a thinner veneer. Yeah. So, so the thing
22:40
Speaker 1: is keep in mind that we can look at it
22:42
Speaker 1: that way because we have years between us and them, right.
22:49
Speaker 1: But understand, and this is really important to understand, and
22:51
Speaker 1: I'm not being an apologist by any means, but they
22:54
Speaker 1: were following the rules. Okay, so they were charged by
23:00
Speaker 1: the Viceroy and the King to go and convert people.
23:03
Speaker 1: They wanted to convert all the natives Catholicism, and also
23:08
Speaker 1: the idea was to expand the territory that was under
23:12
Speaker 1: the king's charge. Okay, so the expand the Spanish empire.
23:17
Speaker 1: So those really were their goals. And in the meantime,
23:19
Speaker 1: since it was privately funded, they wanted to get returned
23:23
Speaker 1: for their investment and then, of course, the crown would
23:25
Speaker 1: get a percentage of that. But they were following the
23:29
Speaker 1: rules the whole time. Okay, so part of the rules.
23:33
Speaker 1: and well, I mean, but then allow them got put
23:36
Speaker 1: on trial later, they did, but only one got actually convicted. Yeah,
23:42
Speaker 1: and the reason he did is because he didn't follow
23:44
Speaker 1: the rules. So when they went into a native village,
23:48
Speaker 1: they read the requirement, the request or whatever, and it
23:54
Speaker 1: had a specific set of statements, that part of which
23:59
Speaker 1: are and I can read a little bit if you want,
24:01
Speaker 1: but basically, uh, you need to acquiesce to our desires,
24:05
Speaker 1: you have to accept our king, our pope and our
24:09
Speaker 1: way of life and you have to do what we
24:11
Speaker 1: want you to do, including giving tribute, and if you don't,
24:13
Speaker 1: then we're gonna come and take your wives and daughters,
24:16
Speaker 1: we're gonna kill you, we're gonna Enslave you and it's
24:18
Speaker 1: all your fault. That's basically what it says. And so,
24:21
Speaker 1: first of all, they probably didn't fully understand. But but
24:23
Speaker 1: you forgot the promise, Um, your problems with your enemies
24:28
Speaker 1: will be over. Yeah, yes, exactly, so they so what
24:31
Speaker 1: they promised was that they would be converted, they would
24:34
Speaker 1: be protected against their enemies and so on. UH, and
24:38
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting something there too, but bottom line is, uh,
24:41
Speaker 1: the trade off wasn't uh favorable at all to the natives.
24:46
Speaker 1: They were doing fine how they were, but the Spaniards
24:52
Speaker 1: wanted to slip themselves in this higher level echelon, just
24:57
Speaker 1: like pretty much did, and in Mexico, for example. Um,
25:02
Speaker 1: and they took Montezuma captive and kind of used him
25:07
Speaker 1: to rule the people for a while and to control
25:10
Speaker 1: it so they could get as much as they want
25:12
Speaker 1: and basically as a hostage. And they tried that in
25:15
Speaker 1: the Sibyl area and it didn't work. For actually in
25:17
Speaker 1: the in the Albuquerque area, and it didn't work too well. Uh,
25:22
Speaker 1: but they they felt that they were following the rules.
25:25
Speaker 1: And the one guy that got convicted, Um, he didn't
25:29
Speaker 1: follow the rules. Like, for example, uh, he suggested that
25:34
Speaker 1: the Pueblo they had a siege and they suggest he
25:37
Speaker 1: suggested that the people surrender and he promised them, uh,
25:40
Speaker 1: favorable passage, in other words, he wasn't gonna Kill Them All. Well,
25:44
Speaker 1: he ended up burning something like a hundred of them
25:46
Speaker 1: at the stake and stabbing lancing. He made them drive
25:51
Speaker 1: the I think he made them place their own stakes.
25:54
Speaker 1: I don't remember for sure. Them Alive. Yeah, I mean
25:58
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty nasty, but that's why he was that's
26:02
Speaker 1: why he was the only one that got Um, basically jailed.
26:07
Speaker 1: In essence, it really wasn't jail because he got a
26:11
Speaker 1: pretty light sentence. Yeah, but how many people are? How
26:15
Speaker 1: many people are on this how many people are on
26:17
Speaker 1: this group of folks that end up like like the
26:20
Speaker 1: group that ends up winding up in Kansas and you know, yeah,
26:24
Speaker 1: so through Texas and Kansas. Like what kind of what
26:27
Speaker 1: kind of like what's this look like coming across the landscape? Well,
26:30
Speaker 1: that's the really interesting thing about this. The latest numbers
26:34
Speaker 1: historians have come up with is about people, maybe three hundred,
26:38
Speaker 1: fifty or four hundred Europe Spaniards, you know, Europeans, uh,
26:42
Speaker 1: and then their support people, slaves and domestic servants, and
26:46
Speaker 1: then hundred or so, uh, native Mexican Indians. Okay, Native Mexicans.
26:52
Speaker 1: So Uh. So basically two thousand hundred people going across
26:59
Speaker 1: the landscape, which is huge. I mean it's just but
27:03
Speaker 1: what they think? Um, it looks like in the documents that,
27:08
Speaker 1: if you read them a certain way and very carefully,
27:10
Speaker 1: it actually says that first they sent the advance guard
27:15
Speaker 1: ahead with Coronado. That included, I think it was eighty
27:19
Speaker 1: or so Spaniards and their support people, including some native Mexicans,
27:23
Speaker 1: and then the second group came two weeks later so
27:25
Speaker 1: that water and pasture wouldn't run out, and so they
27:28
Speaker 1: wouldn't overrun native communities, but they also had a bunch
27:31
Speaker 1: of captains and it looks like they were broken up
27:34
Speaker 1: into smaller groups. And we have now. Two years ago
27:39
Speaker 1: there were no core no coronado sites between Sinaloa, Kul
27:43
Speaker 1: con and so on and UH Sibila. Now I have
27:46
Speaker 1: four in southern Arizona and you just saw US real
27:49
Speaker 1: quick where those the two sizes that you just mentioned
27:52
Speaker 1: are in like in current day town terms in the US.
27:56
Speaker 1: So one of them is kind of buy no gallus
27:59
Speaker 1: south of Tucson, Arizona, on the Santa Cruz River, which
28:03
Speaker 1: is west of where everybody thinks the route came up.
28:05
Speaker 1: So yeah, so let me go over there first and
28:10
Speaker 1: then remind me. So everybody, for years, most like of
28:15
Speaker 1: historians and archaeologists, have thought that Coronado came up the
28:19
Speaker 1: Sonora River in Mexico and then up the San Pedro,
28:22
Speaker 1: down the San Pedro River in southern Arizona before turning northeast.
28:28
Speaker 1: Imagine that route being kind of the center of a
28:31
Speaker 1: page or something. Go to the left or to the West. Um,
28:36
Speaker 1: and the first site we found is on the Santa
28:40
Speaker 1: Cruz River to the West. The second site not the
28:44
Speaker 1: second one we found, but the second on the trail
28:47
Speaker 1: is on an intervening drainage. So we have two sites
28:49
Speaker 1: now to the west of that center line of the
28:53
Speaker 1: page where the San Pedro and Sonora rivers are. And
28:56
Speaker 1: then you go further east southeast, actually still all in
29:00
Speaker 1: the United States, still in Arizona, and there's two sites
29:03
Speaker 1: in the San Bernardino Valley, which is the farthest, farthest
29:07
Speaker 1: Um southeast you can go and still be in Arizona.
29:10
Speaker 1: So my job is to try to figure out how
29:13
Speaker 1: do those fit? And right now we're at the point
29:17
Speaker 1: of Um intersecting with the San Pedro River. So the
29:22
Speaker 1: question is, did they go north, did they go south
29:25
Speaker 1: or did they go east? And I don't know yet.
29:29
Speaker 1: I'm in the process of figuring that out. That's the
29:31
Speaker 1: next discovery we're going to make. But now we have
29:33
Speaker 1: four sites uh in an area where we had none
29:36
Speaker 1: uh at the beginning of covid basically, how far, how
29:40
Speaker 1: far is? How far apart are those? Those, the first
29:43
Speaker 1: one and the ones way to the east, as the
29:46
Speaker 1: crow flies, are about a hundred miles apart. But they
29:49
Speaker 1: went like you know, zig zag and stuff, so would
29:51
Speaker 1: be you know many days in between. So Um, you
29:56
Speaker 1: know one thing we forgot to talk about when we
29:58
Speaker 1: were talking about many people. Can you describe the amount
30:02
Speaker 1: of livestock these guys carried with them? Yes, exactly. So
30:05
Speaker 1: there were something like horses, they had cattle, they had pigs,
30:11
Speaker 1: they had sheep. So thousands ahead of livestock. So honestly
30:15
Speaker 1: they just have to look insane to people, especially when
30:19
Speaker 1: they get to the nomadic hunters and all of a
30:22
Speaker 1: sudden who you know, had never encountered us, to all
30:26
Speaker 1: a sudden look and be like what do we have here? Well, UH,
30:28
Speaker 1: a friend of mine has commented that. You know, it
30:31
Speaker 1: would be like during the civil war. You'd have natives
30:34
Speaker 1: sitting on these UH hillsides watching this, you know, parade
30:38
Speaker 1: go by, but you know it was broken probably into
30:40
Speaker 1: distinct groups moving across the landscape. But one of the
30:43
Speaker 1: ways that I've been able to find some of these
30:45
Speaker 1: sites is think about it, and people have thought about
30:48
Speaker 1: this before, but you gotta have a reliable source, a huge,
30:51
Speaker 1: reliable source of water and pasture right because if you
30:55
Speaker 1: don't stop and allow your livestock to eat every couple
30:59
Speaker 1: of days of arding to ranchers they're gonna fall over.
31:01
Speaker 1: You just can't go that fart now. They did. They
31:03
Speaker 1: did mistreat their animals, for sure. Many of them died
31:07
Speaker 1: along the way, but bottom line is the kinds of
31:10
Speaker 1: water sources that I need to look for that they
31:15
Speaker 1: would have need to have found to survive are in
31:19
Speaker 1: limited areas, although there's enough of them that it could
31:22
Speaker 1: take me years to find more sites. I mean it's
31:26
Speaker 1: it's pretty phenomenal that we have four now and we're
31:28
Speaker 1: on the verge of finding the fifth. But do people still,
31:31
Speaker 1: do your peers still think you're barking up the round tree? Um?
31:35
Speaker 1: Everybody who is a professional archaeologist and most historians agree
31:40
Speaker 1: that I have Coronado. There's no question. We have more
31:43
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads, which your diagnostic a coronado and go out
31:47
Speaker 1: long before the next European expedition or or big group
31:50
Speaker 1: of people is in the area. We have more of
31:52
Speaker 1: those than any other Coronado site known. Okay, so the
31:55
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads across the bow eraheads, we have seventy two
31:58
Speaker 1: or something now. So that's the end to ssputable. We
32:00
Speaker 1: have other coronado artifacts, including the cannon. So we have
32:05
Speaker 1: coronado there's no question what they're questioning without actually seeing
32:09
Speaker 1: the data. Is kind of the problem I have with
32:12
Speaker 1: it is that, uh, they're questioning how I'm putting the
32:16
Speaker 1: route together. And as an archaeologist, I okay, I have
32:19
Speaker 1: four sights, so you connect the dots and if I
32:22
Speaker 1: can connect those with a trail, well that's one trail.
32:25
Speaker 1: But what they don't understand is I am trying to
32:28
Speaker 1: consider every option available as to how the route might
32:32
Speaker 1: have gone. So I'm backing up with the documentary record
32:35
Speaker 1: and geography and stuff and I'm plotting it out and
32:38
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is every single option of
32:40
Speaker 1: the way they could go, and then I'm checking those
32:42
Speaker 1: areas on the ground. And so basically right now, like
32:47
Speaker 1: I said, I'm at the San Pedro. Did they go north,
32:49
Speaker 1: did they go south through did they go east? And
32:51
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer yet, but if they go north,
32:55
Speaker 1: that means that we have two trails because it doesn't
32:58
Speaker 1: connect with the ones way far southeast in the San
33:01
Speaker 1: Bernardino Valley. See, isn't that kind of cool? If they
33:05
Speaker 1: don't go north, then that means they probably went east
33:07
Speaker 1: and then southeast and it connects to this zigzag trail
33:11
Speaker 1: that just goes all over and then goes up, and
33:14
Speaker 1: so that's the verse. That's the point I'm at now.
33:16
Speaker 1: So the next not the next site. If I find
33:19
Speaker 1: the next site where I think it is, then it
33:21
Speaker 1: won't answer that question. I'm gonna have to find one
33:23
Speaker 1: more to figure out whether they went north, because we
33:26
Speaker 1: know where the water was on the surface and that's
33:29
Speaker 1: likely where they can't. I wanna talk about like how
33:41
Speaker 1: you find this stuff and what you're looking for and
33:43
Speaker 1: sort of like what's there, and I have a million
33:45
Speaker 1: questions about that. But let's do a quick feel mine,
33:50
Speaker 1: a quick walk through on what happened to the expedition.
33:56
Speaker 1: Like they they get up to the seven cities of old,
34:00
Speaker 1: which are seven cities of that's why it winds up
34:03
Speaker 1: being what like six cities of not gold, and then
34:07
Speaker 1: they get let on this wild goose chase. Yes, well,
34:12
Speaker 1: one tactic was for natives to try to push the
34:18
Speaker 1: people onto the next place. So when Europeans first to write,
34:24
Speaker 1: even when combasative Acca went through native settlements when they
34:28
Speaker 1: were walking back to new Spain from Florida, they were
34:33
Speaker 1: welcomed at first. There's this continent wide actually it's universal
34:38
Speaker 1: throughout the world hospitality. When somebody new comes, if they're
34:42
Speaker 1: not war alike, if they're not, you know, hostile, you
34:47
Speaker 1: welcome them in, you give them food, you celebrate with
34:50
Speaker 1: them and so on, and then you send them on
34:52
Speaker 1: your way. And what we know from combasative ACCA is
34:54
Speaker 1: that hundreds of people, sometimes from those villages, would go
34:57
Speaker 1: along with them until they got to the edge of
34:59
Speaker 1: their territor Tory and then they'd stop and then Siva
35:03
Speaker 1: could go on from there, and that actually happened on
35:05
Speaker 1: the Coronado expedition as well. As some of these people
35:08
Speaker 1: would serve as porters, some would just escort them and
35:10
Speaker 1: so on. Do you think those folks were getting paid
35:13
Speaker 1: or I mean, like, why were they going along? In
35:16
Speaker 1: some cases they were kidnapped by the Spaniards. In some
35:20
Speaker 1: cases they went along because when when you wanted to
35:25
Speaker 1: go a long distance, it helped to go in a
35:29
Speaker 1: large group so you didn't get attacked. Uh. And also, uh,
35:33
Speaker 1: some of them, like the native Mexicans, were in some
35:37
Speaker 1: cases paid. Um. That is kind of an interesting thing,
35:42
Speaker 1: because some of them went along because they the native Mexicans,
35:46
Speaker 1: because their tribute that they owed the Spaniards was reduced
35:50
Speaker 1: or eliminated. That was kind of a payment to the community.
35:53
Speaker 1: Some of them were paid exactly Um, some of them
35:58
Speaker 1: were paid cash, some of them uh scholars think that
36:02
Speaker 1: they were paid in the sense of that they got
36:04
Speaker 1: to take slaves or captives amongst the groups that they
36:10
Speaker 1: subdued and then they would take those as captive and
36:13
Speaker 1: that would raise their status within their communities, one because
36:17
Speaker 1: they had taken them in warfare and secondly because, uh
36:21
Speaker 1: then they would uh sacrifice them ceremonially and that was
36:25
Speaker 1: how they gained status and that was also part of
36:27
Speaker 1: their their culture and so on. So there's a whole
36:30
Speaker 1: range of reasons why native Mexicans went along, but it
36:35
Speaker 1: seems that when you get up here into southern Arizona,
36:40
Speaker 1: uh what like, there were two hundred principles that went
36:43
Speaker 1: along with Marcos Diniza, for for example, in sixty nine,
36:48
Speaker 1: and they wanted to go to help them carry stuff,
36:51
Speaker 1: but also they wanted to go up to see Siebla,
36:54
Speaker 1: to see Zooni, and they pretty much wanted to go
36:57
Speaker 1: with a group. It would be an exciting thing. I
36:59
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of why one of the reasons all
37:01
Speaker 1: these Spaniards went to. I mean, think about it. It's
37:03
Speaker 1: an adventure, you know. Uh, it would have been an adventure.
37:07
Speaker 1: And maybe in the first two hundred miles. And then
37:09
Speaker 1: can you imagine the drudgery of just knowing that you
37:13
Speaker 1: can't turn back on your own because it's too dangerous? Uh,
37:16
Speaker 1: and you get lost, but you have to keep going forward.
37:20
Speaker 1: Can you imagine waking up every morning after sleeping on
37:23
Speaker 1: a rock on your back all night and realizing, what
37:26
Speaker 1: did I get myself into? You know? Yeah, and the
37:28
Speaker 1: next thing you know you're in Kansas. Oh, I know, incredible,
37:32
Speaker 1: fighting the whole way. And yes, you and I think
37:36
Speaker 1: and have these thoughts, but I don't know if they
37:38
Speaker 1: had those thoughts because maybe they slept on a rock,
37:41
Speaker 1: you know, every day of their lives, just like we do.
37:45
Speaker 1: Have people dieing left and right to you know, right,
37:47
Speaker 1: but that was the norm? Right? Well, but not really.
37:50
Speaker 1: I mean for some, yes, no question, for the domestic
37:53
Speaker 1: servants and slaves and, you know, people like that, for sure,
37:57
Speaker 1: but some of these were noblemen. There were some really
38:00
Speaker 1: high status people there, and those are the ones that
38:02
Speaker 1: mostly went with coronado in his advanced guard. But these were,
38:06
Speaker 1: you know people who wore silks most of the time
38:10
Speaker 1: and shoes with no souls and stuff. In fact, I
38:13
Speaker 1: disagree with one of the historians who claims that they
38:16
Speaker 1: would have worn silks on the whole trip. And it's
38:18
Speaker 1: like I've walked through that. You can see scratches on
38:21
Speaker 1: my arms right now because I was just out earlier
38:23
Speaker 1: this week. I mean, I don't wear silks and my
38:26
Speaker 1: clothes get ruined, you know. So uh, and I have
38:29
Speaker 1: to wear boots with um souls on them so that
38:32
Speaker 1: thorns don't go through them and stuff. So they were uh,
38:36
Speaker 1: they had a very rude awakening, I think. And think
38:38
Speaker 1: about it. They went through in the summer. So they
38:41
Speaker 1: went through southern Arizona in June. UH, Marcus Niza was may,
38:45
Speaker 1: but June is the hottest month and there's no rain.
38:48
Speaker 1: And I went out to the one of the sites,
38:52
Speaker 1: the latest one I found in June, about the time
38:54
Speaker 1: they would have been there, and it was one of
38:56
Speaker 1: the coolest days and I was just about sick from
38:59
Speaker 1: the humidity in the heat because I was trying to
39:02
Speaker 1: find more evidence of our side. So you know, it's
39:06
Speaker 1: but everybody says that it would have been cooler than
39:08
Speaker 1: and wetter than and I'm going to research that more
39:11
Speaker 1: because I'm not convinced of that. I don't know. We'll
39:15
Speaker 1: see um, but you gotta do when you're researching it.
39:18
Speaker 1: You gotta put one of them brass helmets on. There
39:20
Speaker 1: you go. It's like instant tinfoil. Is that what you suggesting?
39:25
Speaker 1: So talking about the wild goose chase, though, because this
39:27
Speaker 1: is an interesting story, like it kind of involves like
39:30
Speaker 1: a guy says, Um, oh, I saw a bracelet made
39:34
Speaker 1: of gold, he had it, and so they take those
39:37
Speaker 1: guys captive and like where is the bracelet, and then
39:41
Speaker 1: one of them tells them some crazy ass story about
39:44
Speaker 1: how they should go to Kansas. That part of the
39:49
Speaker 1: story really brings home to me how greedy they were
39:54
Speaker 1: at that point, how desperate they were. I mean they
39:57
Speaker 1: hear the story about a gold bracelet that was probably hopper,
40:00
Speaker 1: who knows what it was, and something else I can't remember,
40:03
Speaker 1: and they like pursue this with such dog in this
40:06
Speaker 1: it's like they take the guys and put them in
40:09
Speaker 1: chains and callers and keep them kidnapped for six months
40:12
Speaker 1: in there, you know during the winter, and then end
40:16
Speaker 1: up garreting one guy and I mean it just it's
40:19
Speaker 1: phenomenal what they do over a stinking little bracelet. But
40:23
Speaker 1: they thought that was the key to where they were
40:30
Speaker 1: explained garretted, you know, like in a godfather too, I
40:33
Speaker 1: think it is, when they killed the guy by just
40:35
Speaker 1: putting a cable around his neck and then you twist
40:37
Speaker 1: it with a stick or something. So this dude, this
40:42
Speaker 1: dude is like, Oh man, the really good stuff is
40:45
Speaker 1: like up and you know, out in the Buffalo Land,
40:48
Speaker 1: and he they get there and he's like, oh no, no,
40:51
Speaker 1: I think about it. It's a little more over that
40:53
Speaker 1: way right. Well, eventually they just get fed up, like
40:58
Speaker 1: this guy's full of ship and they had some disagreements
41:04
Speaker 1: amongst their gods. But here's the fun thing. Some scholars
41:10
Speaker 1: about three and maybe growing, think that one of their
41:14
Speaker 1: guides was actually trying to take them over to the
41:16
Speaker 1: Mississippian area where there are large canoes, large fish, or
41:21
Speaker 1: at least alligators, and uh, copper artifacts and other things.
41:26
Speaker 1: And so it makes sense. Now. Just here's another aside. UH,
41:30
Speaker 1: there's a Texas site known coronado side. It's been known
41:33
Speaker 1: for some time, the Jimmy own site. Uh, it looks
41:36
Speaker 1: like we may have one on either side of that now,
41:39
Speaker 1: so we have a partial trail there. That still needs
41:41
Speaker 1: to be proved up, which I will be doing in
41:43
Speaker 1: the next couple of years, but that's very exciting because
41:47
Speaker 1: the route trajectory of those if they turn out, they
41:51
Speaker 1: have artifacts that seem to be Coronado, but we just
41:53
Speaker 1: need to prove it up for sure. I'm pretty cautious
41:56
Speaker 1: about these types of things. But anyway, if this is
41:59
Speaker 1: the case, it does look like what they did was
42:02
Speaker 1: really went in a secuity, circuitous type route, not only
42:06
Speaker 1: probably to get them lost but also to starve them
42:09
Speaker 1: out there, but also it looks like maybe he was
42:11
Speaker 1: trying to take them to the Mississippian area where the
42:14
Speaker 1: descriptions actually matched. They don't for the Caverra, purposely to
42:18
Speaker 1: get them lost and to starve them. The guides were
42:21
Speaker 1: doing this too. Just messies like there's an end of
42:27
Speaker 1: the guy they garritted, the guy they killed for misinformation,
42:30
Speaker 1: is like celebrated right by some of the tribes because
42:34
Speaker 1: he got him out. He was it's, you know, the
42:38
Speaker 1: like a contemporary interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong, is
42:42
Speaker 1: that he was like going to lead him out out
42:44
Speaker 1: of the Buffalo planes and lead him out into the
42:46
Speaker 1: state planes of Texas and over they at all they
42:50
Speaker 1: die out there. Well, and he actually kind of said,
42:53
Speaker 1: according to the Spanish, the Spaniards and the one document,
42:57
Speaker 1: is that he told the people at Calvera that if
43:00
Speaker 1: you don't feed them and their horses, they're already weak
43:04
Speaker 1: and you can kill them. And you know, and apparently
43:06
Speaker 1: admitted that he was going around about way to get
43:08
Speaker 1: lost and stuff. Who knows what's going on because, bottom line,
43:11
Speaker 1: there was this rivalry between the guides and we'll never
43:15
Speaker 1: know for sure, but I will say that one of
43:17
Speaker 1: our sites, two of our sites, in the San Bernardino
43:19
Speaker 1: Valley that is such a remote area it's like a moonscape. Okay,
43:23
Speaker 1: it's got volcanic rock Malpais, UH, just out in the
43:28
Speaker 1: middle of stink and nowhere, and the camp site that
43:32
Speaker 1: we have it actually has some incredible rock art, Coronado
43:35
Speaker 1: Rock Art. It's very cool, uh, anyway, and and two
43:38
Speaker 1: Coronado artifacts and some clearings. So we don't know how
43:42
Speaker 1: big a group was there, but it's the first camp,
43:45
Speaker 1: actual camp site. The other one's a town site, right,
43:49
Speaker 1: and and the other ones are artifacts that we haven't
43:53
Speaker 1: identified clearings yet and stuff, but this one has clearings,
43:57
Speaker 1: artifacts and rock art and it is in such a
44:00
Speaker 1: remote area. One of the guys on the Rock Art
44:03
Speaker 1: is reaching out in front of him and it almost
44:04
Speaker 1: looks like he's saying to people who might try this route,
44:08
Speaker 1: go west to get out of here, this is not
44:11
Speaker 1: a good area. I don't know. That's my interpretation. You
44:13
Speaker 1: can interpret it, interpret rock art a number of ways,
44:16
Speaker 1: but you mean rock you mean you've found rock art
44:20
Speaker 1: that was made by people who were accompanying the expedition. Yes, so,
44:25
Speaker 1: no one knew this was there till now. Well, Um,
44:28
Speaker 1: the rancher knew it was there. And basically what we
44:33
Speaker 1: have is a volcanic rock that is weathered and has
44:40
Speaker 1: figures pecked into it and one is wearing a hat,
44:43
Speaker 1: one is wearing a helmet like hat and I think
44:46
Speaker 1: it is a domed hat rather than I'm looking at it. Yeah,
44:49
Speaker 1: and Um, if you look real carefully, I actually do
44:52
Speaker 1: a presentation on this, it looks like the guy has
44:57
Speaker 1: a beard. He has a gown on that was typical
44:59
Speaker 1: of the time. They have pointy shoes on, which was
45:03
Speaker 1: typical of the time. UH, they have a collar like
45:06
Speaker 1: the the UH callers they used to wear at the time,
45:10
Speaker 1: and something else. I forget what up, but anyway, looking
45:14
Speaker 1: at it right now, but it's it's we have coronado
45:16
Speaker 1: artifacts with it, so you know it. It's pretty darn
45:20
Speaker 1: good evidence. Uh. I mean, like one of my volunteers said,
45:24
Speaker 1: I said, well, it looks like it is, and he goes, well,
45:26
Speaker 1: the rock says it is. Uh. So I want to
45:32
Speaker 1: I want to get into how you like ever begin
45:36
Speaker 1: to find this stuff. But well, that and too, I
45:39
Speaker 1: think what like your work, where the personal passion for
45:43
Speaker 1: this project comes from. But let's wrap up. I want to.
45:46
Speaker 1: I want to first wrap up the expedition. Okay, they
45:50
Speaker 1: go on the wild goose chase, get up into Kansas.
45:55
Speaker 1: A subset of them got up into canvas right. So
45:58
Speaker 1: in Texas they realize that there's no way that we
46:00
Speaker 1: can support this. Many people out here on the plains
46:03
Speaker 1: were about ready to starve. There's not enough water. So
46:05
Speaker 1: they send most of the people back to Albuquerque to
46:09
Speaker 1: reinhabit Albuquerque again, Albuquerque, Bernal Leo area, for another winter,
46:14
Speaker 1: and a subset goes north to Kansas. Uh, they stay there.
46:20
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, twenty five days or something
46:22
Speaker 1: like that before they come back, after realizing there was
46:25
Speaker 1: nothing up there that they were interested in. Uh. And
46:28
Speaker 1: then they all go back to the Albuquerque area spend
46:31
Speaker 1: the winter there. Before they leave, Cornado gets kicked in
46:33
Speaker 1: the head by a horse. Yes, it starts acting peculiar. Well,
46:39
Speaker 1: I think that was the second concussion he got. The
46:41
Speaker 1: first one was uh CIBLA, where they threw a slab
46:44
Speaker 1: down and he was in full armor, including a helmet,
46:48
Speaker 1: but it hit him on the head and I think
46:50
Speaker 1: even if you had a helmet on, that's going to
46:52
Speaker 1: cause a pretty big problem. So your second concussion is
46:55
Speaker 1: always the worst. So I think he was in really
46:57
Speaker 1: bad shape. In fact, when the settlement that I found
47:00
Speaker 1: got attacked, someone was heading south to return to new
47:07
Speaker 1: Spain and then ultimately Spain. I saw that the place
47:10
Speaker 1: had been attacked, went all the way back to the
47:12
Speaker 1: Albuquerque area and didn't tell Coronado right away because of
47:17
Speaker 1: his concussions. So it must have been really bad. So Uh.
47:21
Speaker 1: So I think he basically Um was. I think he
47:28
Speaker 1: was pretty bad off, but I think that the fact
47:33
Speaker 1: that they had not found anything, the fact that he
47:36
Speaker 1: had a second concussion the fact that the side I found,
47:41
Speaker 1: Santanimo three, was attacked and destroyed. Uh, and Um, what
47:48
Speaker 1: was the other thing I was gonna say? I forget.
47:49
Speaker 1: But anyway, all of those factors together, I think we're
47:53
Speaker 1: that were the reasons that they ended an expedition. Now, Castinato,
47:57
Speaker 1: one of the chroniclers for the expedition, who wrote some
48:00
Speaker 1: twenty years later, he said that he missed his wife
48:04
Speaker 1: and also, you know, his estates and so on. Well,
48:07
Speaker 1: part of the thing he was governor of Nueva Glossia,
48:11
Speaker 1: and so he had responsibilities down there and the MISHTM
48:13
Speaker 1: war had already started. So like that area was an unrest.
48:17
Speaker 1: He had responsibilities for that and here he was way
48:19
Speaker 1: up there and nothing was turning out like it should.
48:23
Speaker 1: So he was like miles away and nothing was happening. UH,
48:29
Speaker 1: they weren't getting wealthy, people were starting to cause problems,
48:32
Speaker 1: people were dying. Uh, you know, things just bad energy,
48:37
Speaker 1: and I got like got like mutinous, and they come
48:40
Speaker 1: home penniless. Then they all get the finger point and
48:44
Speaker 1: exactly fighting. And it wasn't. So it wasn't like sacking,
48:47
Speaker 1: it wasn't like getting Montezooma's gold at all. So, out
48:50
Speaker 1: of those hundred, how many do you think ended up
48:55
Speaker 1: back dealing, like, back where they came from or started from?
48:58
Speaker 1: And then, and then when dawn and lived? Um, not
49:04
Speaker 1: that many Spaniards died. Some died of hunger, some died
49:07
Speaker 1: being on the way up, by being uh killed by
49:11
Speaker 1: natives as they were going north. UH, some died from
49:15
Speaker 1: poisonous plants they were eating because they were so hungry,
49:19
Speaker 1: and then some died in the battles that they had
49:21
Speaker 1: in the Albuquerque Bernelo area. Do you believe that the
49:25
Speaker 1: do you believe that they were getting shot by poison
49:28
Speaker 1: arrows because they felt that they were Oh, no question.
49:32
Speaker 1: In fact, this gets back to the to the indigenous
49:35
Speaker 1: people that I have studied for forty years, the CEVIYPRIOTEM,
49:39
Speaker 1: the ancestors of the people there in the Tucson area, uh,
49:43
Speaker 1: the Atham. UH, their ancestors use poison arrows. In fact,
49:47
Speaker 1: I studied a battle from when the Jesuit Um uh
49:54
Speaker 1: sabrio Keino was there. Um, a battle occurred five D
49:59
Speaker 1: Apache and the allies attacked this eighty person Sipriatan village
50:03
Speaker 1: on the San Pedro River, that Middle River. Again Anyway,
50:06
Speaker 1: they ended up prevailing. UH, despite that. It's a long story,
50:10
Speaker 1: it's an incredible story, it's absolutely fabulous, but anyway, Um,
50:15
Speaker 1: they use poison arrows against their enemies. And so while
50:18
Speaker 1: only fifty four, I think it was, enemies were actually
50:21
Speaker 1: killed on the site that day, they pursued them into
50:24
Speaker 1: the mountains and over three hundred and sixty, I think,
50:26
Speaker 1: died on the way to the mountains because they'd been
50:29
Speaker 1: pierced by those arrows. These guys that talked about getting
50:32
Speaker 1: like a superficial wound on your wrists, say, and then
50:37
Speaker 1: it would be that they talk of, like everything would
50:39
Speaker 1: rod away and you could just see the sinews and
50:42
Speaker 1: the bones. They'd get into excruciating pain and die, Yep,
50:47
Speaker 1: because they were like because they got some kind of
50:49
Speaker 1: crazy thing. They're dipping these little arrows in and they
50:51
Speaker 1: just sit and ambush them and just try to just
50:53
Speaker 1: prick them with the Arrow. Yeah, it's some actually, interestingly,
50:57
Speaker 1: I identified what plant it is. It's a sap of
50:59
Speaker 1: a Mexican jumping being. I can't remember the scientific name
51:02
Speaker 1: because it was in the process of changing when I
51:04
Speaker 1: studied it. But here's the fun thing. My site, the villa,
51:09
Speaker 1: or the town side of San Hieronimo three. That was
51:12
Speaker 1: my first Coronado side. I found where the battle occurred.
51:15
Speaker 1: The documentary record from a few years later, from twenty
51:19
Speaker 1: four years later, talks about it again from a survivor
51:25
Speaker 1: and part of what the story is is really fascinating.
51:27
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating story which I won't go through unless
51:29
Speaker 1: you want me to, but part of the story is
51:32
Speaker 1: that the captain was sleeping with the wives and daughters
51:38
Speaker 1: of the native villagers, the Cevipriatam and that really ticked
51:44
Speaker 1: the locals off, as well as the fact that they
51:46
Speaker 1: were taking more than they said they were going to
51:49
Speaker 1: take in terms of food stuff and resources, tribute and stuff. Uh.
51:52
Speaker 1: And they were chopping the hands and noses off the residents,
51:56
Speaker 1: probably for terrorism, but also probably for minor, minor offenses, lie,
52:00
Speaker 1: you know, complaining that you took my daughter, you know,
52:03
Speaker 1: or my wife. So Um. But anyway, so they saw
52:08
Speaker 1: lights in the mountains, apparently the night before the attack occurred,
52:12
Speaker 1: and that was unusual. So they doubled the guard and
52:14
Speaker 1: we have six lookout stations, by the way, around our
52:17
Speaker 1: via uh, and three of them with evidence of having
52:20
Speaker 1: been attacked. So they doubled the guard, but the attack
52:24
Speaker 1: didn't occur until the morning when everybody kind of got lazy.
52:29
Speaker 1: You know that happens. They attacked, they snuck in, probably
52:32
Speaker 1: with clubs first, and clubbed people in their houses and
52:35
Speaker 1: such Um. The captain was killed, and he was the
52:39
Speaker 1: one responsible for all of this stuff. In fact, he
52:41
Speaker 1: was sleeping with two yeah too, and what those women
52:47
Speaker 1: did is they took a poison arrowhead and pricked him
52:54
Speaker 1: on the side between the folds of his wee peel,
52:57
Speaker 1: which is kind of clothing, and he died from that.
53:01
Speaker 1: And I love telling that story because, you know, the
53:03
Speaker 1: yellow rows of Texas is Um, during the UM, Sam
53:09
Speaker 1: Houston I was able to overrun Santa Anna because he
53:13
Speaker 1: had a Mulatto woman there who was distracting him in
53:17
Speaker 1: his tent at the time. Okay, so that's the story
53:19
Speaker 1: and that's yeah, and so here we've got the yellow,
53:23
Speaker 1: I mean here we have the red roses of Sulia,
53:26
Speaker 1: who took a arrowhead and killed the captain during the battle.
53:31
Speaker 1: So you have these brave women, women are rarely mentioned
53:35
Speaker 1: in the historic record and UH, here they are central
53:39
Speaker 1: figures in killing one of the main perpetrators of violence
53:43
Speaker 1: in the area. It's just phenomenal. So there's the other
53:46
Speaker 1: poison they made. Like it's like and read about, I
53:49
Speaker 1: don't re understand it would be that they would take
53:51
Speaker 1: dear liver and have a rattlesnake and, like pastor, a
53:55
Speaker 1: rattlesnake with the deer liver until the lattle snakes struck
53:58
Speaker 1: the deer liver and then they'd pay ace. That is that.
54:02
Speaker 1: Does that seem like legit Um? That isn't a that
54:05
Speaker 1: was one of the Apache tribe's way of doing it.
54:07
Speaker 1: There's a variety of different kinds of poison that one
54:09
Speaker 1: can use. Yeah, I've studied some of it, not because
54:12
Speaker 1: I have any intense and using it, but I find
54:16
Speaker 1: poison fascinating the same reason other people do, but because
54:19
Speaker 1: it plays such an important role in the historic record
54:22
Speaker 1: and also in warfare in the historic record, because when
54:25
Speaker 1: you start using poison you're trying to kill people. It's
54:28
Speaker 1: not you're just having this ritualized warfare like some small
54:32
Speaker 1: societies do, so that you don't have to kill a
54:35
Speaker 1: number of people. When you start using poison, you're trying
54:36
Speaker 1: to kill people. You know, you're trying to kill as
54:38
Speaker 1: many as you can. There's a I don't want to
54:42
Speaker 1: take us too far, afield, but there's a I think
54:45
Speaker 1: you've just passed away geists geist. Just I yeah, yeah,
54:50
Speaker 1: maybe it was him. Apologies to his UH survivors if
54:53
Speaker 1: I'm wrong about this, but in looking at the place,
54:56
Speaker 1: to seeing Megafauna extinctions, I feel a key help because
55:00
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, how would they have killed them?
55:02
Speaker 1: You know, we just don't have that many projectile points
55:05
Speaker 1: associated with mammoths. And he wrote the thing about how
55:10
Speaker 1: do we know that they weren't hunting with poison? And
55:14
Speaker 1: he talked about because poison is not like we know
55:16
Speaker 1: in South America poisons used. We know in Africa they
55:19
Speaker 1: hunt big game with poison. But he was making the
55:22
Speaker 1: case of why have we just ignored the role of
55:27
Speaker 1: poison in hunting when we know that poison is used
55:31
Speaker 1: in warfare? Well, we also know it is used in
55:33
Speaker 1: food acquisition and stuff like some, I think it's South American, groups,
55:37
Speaker 1: put poison in the water, all the fish come to
55:39
Speaker 1: the surface kind of thing. So I mean poison plays
55:42
Speaker 1: a role in all kinds of food acquisition strategies. So
55:47
Speaker 1: that's not just surprising, although I don't know how to
55:50
Speaker 1: respond to the other than one thought is that one
55:52
Speaker 1: of the reasons those fluted points are fluted is so
55:55
Speaker 1: that the blood flows. And that doesn't make sense with
55:58
Speaker 1: trying to get the poison to enter the bloods dreams. So, but,
56:01
Speaker 1: but they could have been using other weapons to get
56:03
Speaker 1: the poison in. Right. So uh, one might think, why
56:08
Speaker 1: would anyone give a ship uh what route they took?
56:13
Speaker 1: But I'm starting to put it together. If you find
56:15
Speaker 1: the route, you can find the stuff well and like
56:19
Speaker 1: and and put and solve the mystery. Well, solving the
56:22
Speaker 1: mystery is a huge part of it. That's where part
56:24
Speaker 1: of my passion comes from. Right. But for me, as
56:26
Speaker 1: an archaeologist, I love finding things, I love piecing the
56:30
Speaker 1: story together using archaeology, the historic record and a variety
56:34
Speaker 1: of other things, geography, ethnography and so on. But I
56:39
Speaker 1: also have gotten to the point in my career many,
56:42
Speaker 1: many years ago, probably a couple of decades ago, where
56:44
Speaker 1: I realized that it's more than just an academic pursuit.
56:47
Speaker 1: For me, I like it when it becomes relevant to
56:49
Speaker 1: the people that I'm studying. So that's why I work
56:52
Speaker 1: with the Athum uh, the the direct descendants of not
56:56
Speaker 1: only the mission and presidio sites and and Ceviibrieatham sites
57:02
Speaker 1: that I studied, the native sites, but also this coronado story,
57:05
Speaker 1: because now that we know where the route is, we
57:11
Speaker 1: know that they were impacted. Everybody has thought that it
57:14
Speaker 1: was the OPATA, a different group further eastern Sonora, that Coronado, etcetera,
57:20
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Those were the ones who were impacted. No,
57:23
Speaker 1: it turns out it's the Atham, the AUTHOM had some
57:27
Speaker 1: of the earliest negative encounters with Europeans. So it matters
57:31
Speaker 1: to them, not only, like I said before, so they
57:33
Speaker 1: can understand the history of trauma where some of their
57:37
Speaker 1: cultural changes occurred. You know, they probably had, you know,
57:42
Speaker 1: kids who were mixed race because of this rape that occurred.
57:46
Speaker 1: I mean all of these groups did in fact probably
57:48
Speaker 1: also a stave them. Probably was sleeping with all kinds
57:52
Speaker 1: of native women. So they're probably African American intermixture. There's
57:57
Speaker 1: European intermixture and stuff. So that can you main being
58:00
Speaker 1: a native woman in one of these towns that got
58:03
Speaker 1: raped by one of these men and then having this
58:06
Speaker 1: white looking kid that you have to deal with and explain,
58:09
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it there's all kinds of repercussions
58:12
Speaker 1: along those lines. But also, like I said before, now
58:16
Speaker 1: we know that the atom were the bravest, they were
58:20
Speaker 1: the valiant ones, they were the ones that made the whole.
58:25
Speaker 1: I mean that was the final nail in the coffin
58:27
Speaker 1: for the expedition. Once that happened, there's you know, that
58:31
Speaker 1: that intermediate supply base basically was gone, and so the
58:35
Speaker 1: distance between, quote, Spanish civilization and where they were at
58:40
Speaker 1: just doubled in size, and so it made it almost impossible.
58:44
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. It allows us to put later
58:49
Speaker 1: ethnography with earlier ethnography as well. There are so many
58:52
Speaker 1: reasons as important Um with archaeology too, and this is
58:57
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't understand. When we find,
59:00
Speaker 1: when I find a site like I can answer a
59:02
Speaker 1: whole range of other questions, like at our town sites
59:05
Speaker 1: and Hieronimo. People have said that it's just a supply base,
59:09
Speaker 1: that there were only men there, so it wasn't a settlement. Well,
59:11
Speaker 1: first of all, you can have settlements just of men.
59:13
Speaker 1: You can have settlements of men of just age fifteen,
59:16
Speaker 1: you know, uh, and it's still a settlement. But the
59:18
Speaker 1: point is is we there were some women and children
59:21
Speaker 1: along on the expedition. We don't know how many, but
59:24
Speaker 1: I will be able to tell maybe in the archaeological
59:27
Speaker 1: record whether there were women and children at our site.
59:31
Speaker 1: That's just one of the kinds of things that we
59:33
Speaker 1: can examine, one of the questions that we can examine
59:36
Speaker 1: with the archaeological record that are silent in the historic record.
59:39
Speaker 1: If you find, if you find latrine sites, can you
59:42
Speaker 1: guys do genetic stuff off that? Probably about who would
59:45
Speaker 1: you compare it to? You know, you'd have to find
59:48
Speaker 1: the descendant populations and stuff. Which would could you? Could
59:51
Speaker 1: you tell, uh, male, female, off latrine like off of latrines?
1:00:00
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never done that. You know, you
1:00:03
Speaker 1: got a team up with Dr Beth Shapiro. Okay, you
1:00:09
Speaker 1: guys be best friends. Is She full of ship? Listen, man,
1:00:16
Speaker 1: she's the coolest. She's the coolest. She's far from fullish
1:00:19
Speaker 1: person on the planet when it comes to genetics and stuff. Cool.
1:00:22
Speaker 1: You gotta talk to her. Yeah, well, I'm hoping, you know,
1:00:25
Speaker 1: and you find, you find on the tree site and
1:00:26
Speaker 1: get Best Shapiro on air, she'll figure out what's going on.
1:00:28
Speaker 1: We're expecting maybe to find bodies on this site. No, no,
1:00:33
Speaker 1: atom were killed. No, some viper you were killed. No,
1:00:35
Speaker 1: none of the natives were killed. None of the local natives,
1:00:38
Speaker 1: but some of the Spaniards were killed. But the problem
1:00:41
Speaker 1: is in an archaeologist, if we find a body we
1:00:42
Speaker 1: have to stop digging. So we don't want to find
1:00:45
Speaker 1: him until the very end. So I'm not looking around it.
1:01:01
Speaker 1: When you find a site, is it? How does it work?
1:01:04
Speaker 1: Does it work that someone finds something weird and you
1:01:08
Speaker 1: go and look at me like Bigali, here's a site,
1:01:11
Speaker 1: or is it that you say there should be a
1:01:14
Speaker 1: site there. Let me go look both and other things. So, uh,
1:01:19
Speaker 1: the first site I found, uh, is I found it
1:01:24
Speaker 1: very in a very unique way. So I was working
1:01:28
Speaker 1: on trying to find camp sites along the ONS a trail,
1:01:32
Speaker 1: because nobody's found any campsites along the on the trail.
1:01:35
Speaker 1: We know where the route is, that nobody's actually found
1:01:37
Speaker 1: any campsites. Historians of guests where they are. What's that?
1:01:39
Speaker 1: What's the on the trail? UH, WAMBATISTA Tonza, in seventy
1:01:43
Speaker 1: four seventy went out and founded San Francisco, basically brought
1:01:47
Speaker 1: a colony out there. Okay, so he left from TUBAC
1:01:50
Speaker 1: presidio in southern Arizona, south at Tucson, and so, being
1:01:55
Speaker 1: an archaeologist, I don't want to guess where the site is,
1:01:58
Speaker 1: I want to find evidence. So I found across a
1:02:01
Speaker 1: petrockly cross and I thought, Oh, maybe this is Barcos
1:02:05
Speaker 1: de Niza, maybe this is father Kino or maybe this
1:02:07
Speaker 1: is Wamba Desta, the Anza. So I finally figured out
1:02:11
Speaker 1: it's probably on because there's a campsite, campsite uh inferred
1:02:15
Speaker 1: to be near there. And then I found another Petrock
1:02:18
Speaker 1: clyff cross further up where we know another camp site.
1:02:22
Speaker 1: They're carving crosses into rocks. Yeah, exactly, and they're probably
1:02:25
Speaker 1: you know, they're at water sources there, at passes and
1:02:27
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and we know they're along trails. I
1:02:30
Speaker 1: actually have a youtube video that talks about the Anta
1:02:33
Speaker 1: trail and shows the crosses and so on. So but anyway,
1:02:35
Speaker 1: for a while I was thinking maybe it's Marcos de
1:02:37
Speaker 1: Niza and maybe this is the same route and so on.
1:02:40
Speaker 1: So I started looking into things and then I couldn't
1:02:43
Speaker 1: find any horse shoes related to Uh Ansa, and we
1:02:48
Speaker 1: think that maybe horse shoes weren't used later in time
1:02:51
Speaker 1: because they had the type of horses that had rougher Hoofs,
1:02:53
Speaker 1: like Spanish barbs, and they didn't need them. Plus, horse
1:02:56
Speaker 1: shoes were very expensive. But we know that they were
1:02:59
Speaker 1: used in the Coronado period, during the expedition, and I
1:03:01
Speaker 1: have a bunch of them. I do, I mean I
1:03:03
Speaker 1: found that's more. These other sites, many of them are
1:03:06
Speaker 1: defined by in part by horse shoes. Are Mule shoes. Oh,
1:03:10
Speaker 1: so when you guys talk about the nails, is the
1:03:12
Speaker 1: horseshoe nails? Yes, but I also have a video. Yeah,
1:03:17
Speaker 1: so I have a video on that and that's one
1:03:19
Speaker 1: of the uses of them. But there's probably other uses
1:03:21
Speaker 1: for the nails as well. But they're gable headed or
1:03:25
Speaker 1: carrot headed nails. I've started call them gable headed nails
1:03:28
Speaker 1: because they're, you know, like gabled roof and that makes
1:03:31
Speaker 1: a lot more sense. The carrot is an editing character
1:03:35
Speaker 1: kind of because of that, the upside down V shape Um.
1:03:39
Speaker 1: But Anyway, uh, where were we? Horseshoes? Oh, so I
1:03:43
Speaker 1: was looking. I had worked at the Spanish presidio Santa
1:03:47
Speaker 1: Crist terranant prasidio before, excavated there for years and never
1:03:51
Speaker 1: found any horse shoes. So I wasn't hopeful, but I
1:03:53
Speaker 1: looked on the Internet for, you know, what kind of
1:03:58
Speaker 1: horse shoes might have they had that I'm missing, or
1:04:00
Speaker 1: horseshoe nails, and then I found an image of these
1:04:04
Speaker 1: online and nobody knew where they were at. Uh, but
1:04:09
Speaker 1: we knew have found them, and so I guessed where
1:04:13
Speaker 1: he might have found them because I had been working
1:04:16
Speaker 1: on a site for years. I've worked the whole Area
1:04:19
Speaker 1: A lot. But I found a Horse Jangle because Cojo,
1:04:23
Speaker 1: uh Jingle Bobs, some people call him, from the bridle
1:04:25
Speaker 1: bit on my subiper site and I thought this looks
1:04:30
Speaker 1: just like the one on the Jimmy Ollen site. They're
1:04:32
Speaker 1: in Texas, a known Coronado site. So I wondered, like
1:04:35
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, could this be Coronado, but I had
1:04:38
Speaker 1: no way of proving it right. Well, so when I
1:04:43
Speaker 1: guessed where these might have come from, I went back
1:04:46
Speaker 1: to that site after doing a train analysis and within
1:04:48
Speaker 1: a couple of hours, within less than two hours, had
1:04:51
Speaker 1: found Coronado. So the metal detector. Yeah, yeah, Yep, when
1:04:59
Speaker 1: you say you had found Coronado, that doesn't mean you
1:05:02
Speaker 1: found his body. No, no, he's buried. He died ten something. Yeah,
1:05:10
Speaker 1: what I mean is um that evidence of Coronado's trail
1:05:14
Speaker 1: and it turns out a town site and now we have,
1:05:18
Speaker 1: like I said, four down here and there's a bunch
1:05:20
Speaker 1: of Albuquerque and so on, and one for sure in
1:05:23
Speaker 1: Texas Um. So that's what I mean as an archaeologist
1:05:27
Speaker 1: when I found Coronado. Yeah, real quick before you go
1:05:30
Speaker 1: farther on, because I'm just still, like you were saying earlier,
1:05:34
Speaker 1: when Steve Asked you, like Oh, if you find the path,
1:05:36
Speaker 1: then then you unravel the mystery. But what is the
1:05:40
Speaker 1: like in real short form? What is the mystery still
1:05:43
Speaker 1: yet with this whole expedition? Well, part of the thing
1:05:48
Speaker 1: is that nobody's been able to find it. So that
1:05:52
Speaker 1: makes it the path. Like how could thousands of people
1:05:55
Speaker 1: and thousands ahead of livestock? I have this role in
1:06:00
Speaker 1: battle from Mexico to Kansas. So the path is the mystery,
1:06:04
Speaker 1: the path and the campsites. And even two fifty years
1:06:07
Speaker 1: or whatever it is ago, Father Keino and his military escort,
1:06:11
Speaker 1: in their documents they left, questioned where coronado went and said, hey,
1:06:15
Speaker 1: he probably went here. You know, turns out corn, turns
1:06:19
Speaker 1: out Father Keno from six nineties actually stayed at one
1:06:23
Speaker 1: of the places where one of our sites are and
1:06:24
Speaker 1: he didn't know it, which is really kind of cool actually.
1:06:28
Speaker 1: So we have these layers of history and stuff, but
1:06:30
Speaker 1: it's been lost. It was lost afterwards partly because they
1:06:33
Speaker 1: didn't know where they were. Right. They didn't know where
1:06:35
Speaker 1: they were on the train. They went back and forth
1:06:38
Speaker 1: several times so they could find their way, but they
1:06:40
Speaker 1: had they had no idea where they were. There's no
1:06:42
Speaker 1: surviving map of this part. So even if they did
1:06:46
Speaker 1: a map, even if even if they prepared a map,
1:06:48
Speaker 1: I don't think it would help much. When they were
1:06:49
Speaker 1: crossing the UH Yano esticado state plans, they were leaving
1:06:55
Speaker 1: big mountains of buffalo chips so they could try to
1:06:58
Speaker 1: find their way back the way they came. Yeah, and
1:07:03
Speaker 1: then also, yeah, they true. And then also to find
1:07:06
Speaker 1: their way, they'd shoot arrows. They wait till the morning,
1:07:08
Speaker 1: till the sun rose, they'd shoot a couple of arrows
1:07:11
Speaker 1: and then keep shooting them over one another so they
1:07:13
Speaker 1: could stay on the trail. And My uh, what I
1:07:17
Speaker 1: imagine is when they got led astray by those guides,
1:07:19
Speaker 1: they shot them a little bit to the right each time.
1:07:22
Speaker 1: Right they knew exactly what they were doing. So you
1:07:26
Speaker 1: guys found a this kind of most surprising thing. You've
1:07:30
Speaker 1: turned up, Um, one the cross like armaments, crossbowl Arrow
1:07:38
Speaker 1: you know, projectile points from crossbows that they used and
1:07:41
Speaker 1: they fought. But you found a cannon. Cannon, Yep. So
1:07:47
Speaker 1: before I mentioned the cannon, what we have with regard
1:07:49
Speaker 1: to the crossbow boltheads? We have a I'll show you one,
1:07:53
Speaker 1: but also, Um, what I have here is, Um, a
1:07:56
Speaker 1: map that we plotted them out. I could see in
1:07:59
Speaker 1: the field that Um that we had clustering, but I
1:08:04
Speaker 1: plotted it out more recently and Um, basically what you
1:08:08
Speaker 1: can see. I'M NOT gonna be able to find it now,
1:08:10
Speaker 1: of course. Um, what you can see is that the
1:08:14
Speaker 1: crossbow boltheads cluster and in just a tour, actually four
1:08:17
Speaker 1: different areas and in the first area with most of them,
1:08:21
Speaker 1: including broken ones, a lot of tips and so on. Uh,
1:08:25
Speaker 1: there are also subpriatam stone arrowheads. So that's where there
1:08:30
Speaker 1: was little shootouts. Yeah, they came up the wash and
1:08:33
Speaker 1: that right in the heart of the town site. So Um,
1:08:36
Speaker 1: so you can see that. Um, and uh, that is
1:08:41
Speaker 1: one of the strong like when I tell people how
1:08:43
Speaker 1: many crossbow boltheads. We have more than any other coronado site.
1:08:46
Speaker 1: That's convincing. And then how they cluster. We can see
1:08:49
Speaker 1: where they went and such. But Um, near where that
1:08:54
Speaker 1: occurred we did find the cannon, and the Cannon Uh is.
1:08:58
Speaker 1: I'm still looking for this image. Sorry. Um, the cannon
1:09:02
Speaker 1: was found, uh, metal detecting, but it was sitting on
1:09:07
Speaker 1: the obviously, I'd like to rent you for a couple
1:09:11
Speaker 1: of weeks, man, just to just to go metal detecting.
1:09:14
Speaker 1: We'll see. I got some real honey hooles. I'd like
1:09:16
Speaker 1: to go. Have you shown me how to work? Yeah,
1:09:18
Speaker 1: but see, as a professional archaeologist, what I have to say,
1:09:22
Speaker 1: and this is really, I think, important, metal detecting is
1:09:24
Speaker 1: an important tool and I didn't use it much until recently,
1:09:28
Speaker 1: but this is one of the reasons coronado hadn't been found,
1:09:31
Speaker 1: because archaeologists were hesitant to use metal detectors because we
1:09:34
Speaker 1: did not want to to lead the public to the
1:09:37
Speaker 1: idea that you can just go out and loot, meaning
1:09:40
Speaker 1: take things out of context. And well, that's what I'm
1:09:43
Speaker 1: fixing to do with you. Yeah, there you go. So
1:09:46
Speaker 1: that's what you think. Huh? So? So, anyway, here's my point,
1:09:51
Speaker 1: and I want to make a point about this. I'm
1:09:52
Speaker 1: not trying to be arrogant, because I know that people.
1:09:55
Speaker 1: One of the reason my crew volunteers, and I have
1:09:57
Speaker 1: like thirty or forty people volunteering with me, and one
1:10:00
Speaker 1: of the reasons they do it is there totally passionate
1:10:05
Speaker 1: about finding this stuff and they get to do it
1:10:08
Speaker 1: in a way that's professionally or, you know, responsible. Yeah,
1:10:13
Speaker 1: they're they're like making history. They're making history and they
1:10:16
Speaker 1: knew from the beginning and everybody sworn to secrecy and
1:10:19
Speaker 1: certain rules. We haven't stuff that they can't keep anything.
1:10:21
Speaker 1: But but here's the deal, the reason this is important
1:10:25
Speaker 1: and I can't stress is enough. Remember, I was talking
1:10:27
Speaker 1: about the Sonora River and the Sampedro, where everybody thought
1:10:29
Speaker 1: they went up there, and I have two sites to
1:10:31
Speaker 1: the West and there's two sites to the east, and
1:10:34
Speaker 1: now I'm at the Sampedro trying to decide whether they
1:10:36
Speaker 1: turned north, south or went straight east. Well, I think
1:10:42
Speaker 1: they might have went north because somebody found a medieval
1:10:45
Speaker 1: horseshoe fragment there fifty years ago. The woman who allowed
1:10:50
Speaker 1: this person to look was given this and a few
1:10:53
Speaker 1: other artifacts, and I saw it in her display case.
1:10:57
Speaker 1: She didn't do the meddle detecting. She she doesn't know
1:10:59
Speaker 1: exactly where found, but she thinks it was found to
1:11:02
Speaker 1: the north. Now that's the problem. First of all, if
1:11:06
Speaker 1: I hadn't run into her. I ran into her through
1:11:08
Speaker 1: a friend WHO's on the project, who I've known for
1:11:11
Speaker 1: some time, and I saw this. Where did you get this?
1:11:14
Speaker 1: So she doesn't really know where it came from. So
1:11:16
Speaker 1: that's part of the problem. So I'M gonna be on
1:11:18
Speaker 1: this wild goose chase. But if she knew exactly where
1:11:21
Speaker 1: it came from, then I could walk right there and
1:11:24
Speaker 1: know that that's where the site is. What if that's
1:11:26
Speaker 1: the only artifact that was thrown from a mule or
1:11:30
Speaker 1: horse or the only artifact left behind by the expedition
1:11:34
Speaker 1: in that location? Then it's a race and so many
1:11:38
Speaker 1: people pick these things up they don't record where they're from.
1:11:42
Speaker 1: And that's the one key. And I was working on
1:11:46
Speaker 1: another site. The WHO, the Apache leader? Who? Where he killed?
1:11:50
Speaker 1: Uh Lieutenant cushing, uh Um in one, hero of Tucson
1:11:56
Speaker 1: and so on. Nobody could find this place. I found
1:11:59
Speaker 1: it fairly quick. Uh train analysis again and understanding Apache
1:12:04
Speaker 1: ambush behavior and the thing that we realized is that
1:12:08
Speaker 1: it had been metal detected and collected before. And what happened?
1:12:12
Speaker 1: Is it with somebody from Wisconsin in the Tucson Sierra
1:12:15
Speaker 1: Vista area. He collected all this stuff. He showed a
1:12:17
Speaker 1: local gun shop and they verified it. And that's how
1:12:20
Speaker 1: I know it happened, because it's one of the people
1:12:22
Speaker 1: on my crew and the guy has disappeared. He never
1:12:25
Speaker 1: came back. He was going to come back and the
1:12:26
Speaker 1: things probably ended up in the landfill from Wisconsin. Yeah,
1:12:30
Speaker 1: his family probably. I've rel nonetheless. Well, you know, I've
1:12:38
Speaker 1: called up there and tried to figure out maybe where
1:12:40
Speaker 1: they could be. But the problem is when somebody dies,
1:12:44
Speaker 1: their collections just get tossed half the time because nobody recognized.
1:12:47
Speaker 1: They think it's a bunch of trash. And so, with
1:12:50
Speaker 1: regard to Coronado, it's super important that they leave so little.
1:12:54
Speaker 1: These are overnight encampments for the most part, and you
1:12:57
Speaker 1: find one thing in some cases. But if you find
1:12:59
Speaker 1: one thing, artifacts can move, they can get there by
1:13:02
Speaker 1: other reasons. A native could have picked it up or whatever.
1:13:05
Speaker 1: But the fact is if you find an alignment of them,
1:13:09
Speaker 1: then you know you've got the trail. When somebody takes
1:13:11
Speaker 1: one of those out, it's harder to find the next one,
1:13:14
Speaker 1: or you could erase whole segments of the trail. So
1:13:16
Speaker 1: I totally understand and I'm on board with what you're saying.
1:13:22
Speaker 1: It took me a while to get there, but and
1:13:24
Speaker 1: and and again I've been on. I got to spend
1:13:27
Speaker 1: time with archaeologists. We found ice age projectile points that
1:13:32
Speaker 1: they would just shove back into the ground. It was
1:13:35
Speaker 1: painful for me. I would fantasize about going back there
1:13:39
Speaker 1: and getting them all. Never did you like working with me.
1:13:43
Speaker 1: I get it, understand and when I pointed out, when
1:13:47
Speaker 1: I pointed out, I'm just pointed out because it's what
1:13:49
Speaker 1: like a a people people. People walk around looking at
1:13:58
Speaker 1: the ground, thinking you're gonna find some cool ship land
1:14:00
Speaker 1: there right. It's like they often view it as why
1:14:07
Speaker 1: is that archaeologist finding it? Like why is that? Okay,
1:14:12
Speaker 1: but it's bad for me to find it, and that's
1:14:15
Speaker 1: it's like they're like what are they? They're they're better
1:14:17
Speaker 1: than me. You know what is it? I've heard that
1:14:21
Speaker 1: story too and I understand it. I certainly didn't. What
1:14:24
Speaker 1: do you laugh about? You think you're better than me,
1:14:27
Speaker 1: because you know I'm saying it's definitely it's something a
1:14:34
Speaker 1: little kid who is something taken away from them. Go
1:14:37
Speaker 1: volunteer with Danny. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking
1:14:40
Speaker 1: about like, no, I'm putting myself in like articulating the
1:14:45
Speaker 1: thing that's been okay, do this test. Do this test.
1:14:48
Speaker 1: Go on Um, go on Instagram, and and and just
1:14:53
Speaker 1: go on instagram. Take take a projectile point. Okay, and
1:14:56
Speaker 1: go on instagram and put in the palm of your
1:14:59
Speaker 1: hand and say I found this uh Indian Arrowhead. Too
1:15:03
Speaker 1: Bad I couldn't keep it, and then look in the
1:15:05
Speaker 1: comments section a couple of days later. Oh Yeah, I've
1:15:07
Speaker 1: I've read this. So like this is a widely held viewpoint. Yeah,
1:15:15
Speaker 1: I know the like what are the odds someone's gonna
1:15:19
Speaker 1: find it? It's been here this long, no one's found
1:15:22
Speaker 1: it yet, whatever. And this ship winds up in coffee
1:15:25
Speaker 1: cans on people's Windows, on the wall right there. If
1:15:29
Speaker 1: Our podcasts people send us that ship, I gotta I
1:15:37
Speaker 1: guess people try to give me all the time. But
1:15:40
Speaker 1: here's the thing. The fact is is that this site
1:15:43
Speaker 1: where the first big the first site I found, the
1:15:45
Speaker 1: biggest one. The town site where the battle occurred. People
1:15:48
Speaker 1: had metal detected there before that. Yeah, they haven't had
1:15:51
Speaker 1: no idea what they're looking at. Well, they had worst
1:15:53
Speaker 1: metal detectors. They didn't know what they were looking at
1:15:55
Speaker 1: and they're all out of context. And the fact is
1:15:58
Speaker 1: is what I would say to people who have that
1:16:00
Speaker 1: view is I understand it. It's the thrill, it's the
1:16:03
Speaker 1: thrill of the chase, it's the adventure, it's finding something
1:16:06
Speaker 1: cool and old. But Americans are kind of unique in
1:16:09
Speaker 1: that way. Is that we got to keep things for
1:16:11
Speaker 1: some reason. We want to put them on our mantle.
1:16:13
Speaker 1: Other people when people come over and go see that, yeah, exactly,
1:16:18
Speaker 1: ship and we like to collect. Well, and also people
1:16:21
Speaker 1: have collected it and said I collected this for you
1:16:23
Speaker 1: so that nobody else would take it, and I said
1:16:25
Speaker 1: you just took it, you know. But tell you something,
1:16:28
Speaker 1: this is gonna trip you up. This is the Tony
1:16:30
Speaker 1: Baker story, the late Tony Baker. They were talking bad
1:16:34
Speaker 1: about the dead. No, they found Tony Baker. No, I
1:16:39
Speaker 1: don't know where it went. I remember telling me the story.
1:16:41
Speaker 1: They found they were at a Pueblo. Archaeologists working a
1:16:44
Speaker 1: Pueblo site had found where the Pueblo in people had
1:16:51
Speaker 1: a stash of fulsome points. They found it and thought
1:16:57
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah, and they're they're separated by ten thousand years.
1:17:02
Speaker 1: We find that in archaeological sites. Is often things were
1:17:06
Speaker 1: picked up to put in medicine bags or picked up
1:17:09
Speaker 1: as Curios or also picked up at to reuse. So
1:17:12
Speaker 1: that's quite common. They're like these people are from a long,
1:17:16
Speaker 1: long time ago. Let's strong in jail. I don't know
1:17:19
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. The viewpoint be like they, in their time,
1:17:24
Speaker 1: like a thousand years ago whatever, recognized that like wow, yeah, no,
1:17:28
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing from a long time ago. And See,
1:17:31
Speaker 1: I think there's people who just don't care about history
1:17:34
Speaker 1: in the past, but there's huge number of people, I'd
1:17:37
Speaker 1: say maybe half the population or more, that find a
1:17:40
Speaker 1: fascination with the past, with history, with people have gone before.
1:17:43
Speaker 1: It's a connection. Artifacts provide that tangible connection to the
1:17:48
Speaker 1: past and that's why people are enthralled by it. But
1:17:50
Speaker 1: what I will say is, getting back to our site
1:17:52
Speaker 1: and our project, I haven't asked my biggest question yet,
1:17:56
Speaker 1: and it has to do with the cannon. Okay, so
1:17:58
Speaker 1: the reason that it's important is what if somebody had
1:18:01
Speaker 1: come in and collected all these crossbow bolt heads. If
1:18:04
Speaker 1: they had, you know, done it and found this or
1:18:07
Speaker 1: the cannon the bolt heads, we wouldn't have been able
1:18:10
Speaker 1: to see the pattern, right, we wouldn't have known that
1:18:13
Speaker 1: this is a most important historic site, potentially in the region,
1:18:18
Speaker 1: in the southern Arizona at least Um. If they had
1:18:21
Speaker 1: found the cannon, you know where I'd be right now?
1:18:23
Speaker 1: In some Saudi's basement in his private collection. That's right
1:18:27
Speaker 1: on some of my kids. Yeah, exactly, see. So the
1:18:34
Speaker 1: way I look at this is this is all of
1:18:37
Speaker 1: our histories, right is this not just my find, and
1:18:41
Speaker 1: that's why I'm sharing it in the film and the
1:18:43
Speaker 1: documentary film. But I also see that as an archaeologist,
1:18:47
Speaker 1: I could go out and find this stuff and not
1:18:49
Speaker 1: tell anybody, right, I mean, I could do it just
1:18:51
Speaker 1: like the public does, but I don't because I recognize
1:18:55
Speaker 1: that this is our collective history and most other countries,
1:18:59
Speaker 1: how a sensibility about that that we would help if
1:19:03
Speaker 1: we started thinking about it this way, because once we
1:19:06
Speaker 1: take something out of the context, is everything, once we
1:19:09
Speaker 1: take it out of its context in the field, we
1:19:11
Speaker 1: lose the story, the story about Coronado and this uh
1:19:16
Speaker 1: town site of San Joranimo, the interaction with the natives
1:19:21
Speaker 1: and all of this is just so phenomenal. It's the
1:19:24
Speaker 1: story itself that we can tell from the artifacts and
1:19:28
Speaker 1: where we found them on the ground and the relationship
1:19:30
Speaker 1: to each other and the features, the structures and so
1:19:32
Speaker 1: on that we're finding. If people just collected that, we
1:19:37
Speaker 1: would lose that. So we have this whole the whole
1:19:40
Speaker 1: story that we're able to develop because people didn't get
1:19:45
Speaker 1: in there and destroy the evidence. And that's why I
1:19:47
Speaker 1: keep the place secret, because I can only work so much.
1:19:50
Speaker 1: See I can only work so fast. I almost killed
1:19:54
Speaker 1: myself last season trying to get certain things done before
1:19:57
Speaker 1: the end of the before it got too hot and
1:19:58
Speaker 1: before the rains and stuff. But if people find out
1:20:02
Speaker 1: where it is, they're going to come into metal detect
1:20:03
Speaker 1: and then it's going to mess up our distributions. So
1:20:05
Speaker 1: at least until we're done metal detective, I've been going
1:20:08
Speaker 1: over some areas five times to get everything out so
1:20:10
Speaker 1: that people don't feel the need to go right Um,
1:20:14
Speaker 1: we've got to figure out how to protect it uh,
1:20:16
Speaker 1: but if you want to see it, you'll have to
1:20:18
Speaker 1: wait till it's in a museum. Yeah, we'll probably end
1:20:21
Speaker 1: up doing site tours and stuff, but they're gonna it's
1:20:25
Speaker 1: gonna be consultation with various landowners and agencies and, you know,
1:20:30
Speaker 1: the whole whole range, because it's even when I extract
1:20:35
Speaker 1: what I extract, I'm only going to do a subset
1:20:37
Speaker 1: of the evidence. there. The the ethic is to save
1:20:40
Speaker 1: a lot of it for the future, and so I'll
1:20:43
Speaker 1: do that. But also the landowners don't want to be overrun. Uh,
1:20:47
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be turned into, hopefully to a
1:20:50
Speaker 1: monument or landmark so that people can go just like
1:20:53
Speaker 1: they do to a national park. Um, it's such a
1:20:57
Speaker 1: big thing. It's such a big fine so so important
1:21:00
Speaker 1: to our history, into the history of underrepresented populations, native populations,
1:21:05
Speaker 1: the Ottom and also the Hispanics in the area. It's
1:21:09
Speaker 1: going to be a matter of pride for them and
1:21:11
Speaker 1: they're gonna want to have their interpretations. In fact, the
1:21:14
Speaker 1: autumn that we've brought out so far are really proud
1:21:17
Speaker 1: to be part of it so that they can start
1:21:19
Speaker 1: telling their story for a change. So I mean it
1:21:24
Speaker 1: has social implications. The fact that we've been able to
1:21:27
Speaker 1: find this stuff intact, that it hasn't been collected before.
1:21:30
Speaker 1: I'll stop harping. That's enough. But you got it. You
1:21:32
Speaker 1: got it covered. Could I want to ask my biggest questions?
1:21:37
Speaker 1: You can describe the Canon within this, within this thing,
1:21:40
Speaker 1: but you found the oldest gun to ever turn up
1:21:45
Speaker 1: in the US. Okay, Yep, it's been sitting there for
1:21:50
Speaker 1: I can't really do the math, four years when we
1:21:53
Speaker 1: found it. It's been sitting there for four years. And
1:21:57
Speaker 1: you find it kind of like built into an adobe wall. No, no, sitting, uh,
1:22:07
Speaker 1: inside a structure. So the structure walls were made of
1:22:12
Speaker 1: Adobe and rock and had collapsed on it to protect it.
1:22:16
Speaker 1: But I haven't done my question yet. Okay, what the
1:22:21
Speaker 1: Hell did someone think that wall was? WHO's been looking
1:22:25
Speaker 1: at it? First, since, like, are there that many walls
1:22:28
Speaker 1: out there? They're like, Oh, I didn't know that the
1:22:30
Speaker 1: Coronado expedition built that wall in my backyard. What was
1:22:34
Speaker 1: it regarded like? How is it perceived by the people
1:22:39
Speaker 1: who are occupying that area now? Okay, so first of
1:22:42
Speaker 1: all it's ranch land, but secondly there's no walls visible
1:22:45
Speaker 1: on the surface. So what happened is it was partially
1:22:48
Speaker 1: burned and collapsed at the end and it's melted into
1:22:51
Speaker 1: the surface and my heart was somehow picturing it. They're like, Oh,
1:22:55
Speaker 1: I don't know what that old wall was, people passing
1:22:58
Speaker 1: it by for French today. Yeah, archeologists surface. Yeah, and
1:23:08
Speaker 1: and so my question. Yeah, so my entire careers, career
1:23:12
Speaker 1: has been spent on identifying Apache, so viper, all these
1:23:16
Speaker 1: groups that are difficult to define, hard to see the
1:23:18
Speaker 1: archaeological evidence. And this is just as difficult, just as
1:23:21
Speaker 1: hard because it's a type of structure. The structure I'm
1:23:24
Speaker 1: digging now is unlike the prehistoric stuff and unlike the
1:23:27
Speaker 1: later historic stuff, and that's what's so cool about it.
1:23:30
Speaker 1: So I've been digging it very carefully to try not
1:23:33
Speaker 1: to ruin it, because there's only one structure in the
1:23:36
Speaker 1: entire world that has coronado's cannon in it, m as
1:23:40
Speaker 1: far as we know. So, uh, so, I I have
1:23:43
Speaker 1: this responsibility which almost paralyzed me. You know, it's like
1:23:47
Speaker 1: in decision. What do I do? Because I have I
1:23:50
Speaker 1: have a responsibility as a professional. Uh Two, be as
1:23:55
Speaker 1: careful as I can and to preserve as much of
1:23:57
Speaker 1: it as possible. And so tell how you guys found thing.
1:24:00
Speaker 1: The cannon. Yeah, like, what was it doing and how
1:24:02
Speaker 1: did you find okay, it was laying there kind of
1:24:05
Speaker 1: smoking a cigarette. No, Um, only two of us were
1:24:10
Speaker 1: out in the field that day. So, uh, it was
1:24:12
Speaker 1: in September of we were. I had just laid out
1:24:19
Speaker 1: that we lay out these tape lines so that we
1:24:21
Speaker 1: can systematically metal detect right and uh, Chris went ahead
1:24:25
Speaker 1: and got started and I finished laying out the lines
1:24:29
Speaker 1: and then I got started. In like five yards or
1:24:33
Speaker 1: meters into the first line I got a hit. It
1:24:36
Speaker 1: wasn't very strong, so I started digging it. As. Are
1:24:40
Speaker 1: you set for a specific type of metal? No, U.
1:24:43
Speaker 1: The detectors that I use are all medals. I got
1:24:48
Speaker 1: them set for all medals. UH, intentionally so, because most
1:24:51
Speaker 1: people looking for treasures and stuff are looking for gold
1:24:55
Speaker 1: or looking for, you know, old coins and stuff. We're
1:24:58
Speaker 1: just as interested in the E and artifacts, the Ferris
1:25:01
Speaker 1: artifacts is, we are other things like the nails are right.
1:25:05
Speaker 1: So I have the hardest time explaining to my kids
1:25:08
Speaker 1: that they're not going to find stone arrowheads with their metal. No,
1:25:11
Speaker 1: you won't, but I explain it. It's twenty times, but
1:25:14
Speaker 1: it just doesn't click. They think it's an old thing, detector,
1:25:22
Speaker 1: walk up on the street, find old people, right. No, Um,
1:25:26
Speaker 1: so all metals. In fact, I've had a hard time
1:25:28
Speaker 1: convincing my crew at times. Look, we can't discriminate. You've
1:25:32
Speaker 1: got to find everything. So you're digging through old twenty
1:25:34
Speaker 1: two shell casings and pull tabs off beer cans and, Um,
1:25:39
Speaker 1: I want to tell all the hunters out there please, please,
1:25:43
Speaker 1: we have so many. In fact, people yell out shotgun
1:25:47
Speaker 1: because we find so many shotgun shells. Uh. It's just
1:25:50
Speaker 1: absolutely incredible. A little bb size shot. We can we
1:25:53
Speaker 1: get that too? You're finding that. Oh yeah, our detectors
1:25:56
Speaker 1: are good and our crews are good, so we find
1:25:58
Speaker 1: really tiny stuff. You know, twenty two is all kinds
1:26:01
Speaker 1: of stuff. A lead shot. She should pair up with
1:26:05
Speaker 1: Chris Parish. It's like a lead clean up at the
1:26:08
Speaker 1: same time as like an archaeological well, what we do
1:26:12
Speaker 1: is we collect that kind of stuff and then we
1:26:14
Speaker 1: dump it. But I always checked my cruise pockets because
1:26:17
Speaker 1: a couple of times, no, no, no, no, because a
1:26:20
Speaker 1: couple of times they don't take anything, but a couple
1:26:22
Speaker 1: of times something that was a value. We thought what
1:26:26
Speaker 1: they thought was a piece of wire and it wasn't okay. So,
1:26:30
Speaker 1: like what we have is we have fish hooks, like
1:26:33
Speaker 1: size number six fish hooks. We have several of those
1:26:36
Speaker 1: and one with a weight. We have um little spring
1:26:41
Speaker 1: things that went inside uh Um matchlocks and we lock guns.
1:26:48
Speaker 1: We have expedition had fish hooks. So they were fishing
1:26:53
Speaker 1: at our site because it's near water. Isn't that cool?
1:26:56
Speaker 1: We have several. I wouldn't have believed it if we
1:26:58
Speaker 1: just found one. But get a picture of that old
1:27:00
Speaker 1: ask Fishhook. Um, I'll see, we'll get it from you. Yeah, yeah,
1:27:04
Speaker 1: and then, and then, okay, but I interrupted. You tell
1:27:06
Speaker 1: me how you found the cannon. So there you are.
1:27:10
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, so I I got a hit and I
1:27:14
Speaker 1: started digging down and it was about a foot under
1:27:15
Speaker 1: the ground and I thought this is really weird. What
1:27:18
Speaker 1: is this? And so I called Chris, because any time
1:27:20
Speaker 1: we find something cool we call the other person over.
1:27:23
Speaker 1: So he comes over and what is that? And I said,
1:27:25
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's a bell, because it had
1:27:28
Speaker 1: that Cassoo Bell on top, you know, and uh, we
1:27:31
Speaker 1: kept digging. Finally he takes the metal detection he goes
1:27:34
Speaker 1: it's long. I wonder if it's an irrigation pipe. I said,
1:27:37
Speaker 1: it's not an irrigation pipe. What is it? You know
1:27:39
Speaker 1: there's no irrigation out here. Um. Anyway, so he kept
1:27:43
Speaker 1: digging it and realized started realizing what it was. And
1:27:47
Speaker 1: so the thing is, I sent you something. It shows
1:27:51
Speaker 1: the roots wrapped around the gun. So I called a
1:27:54
Speaker 1: couple other crew members who were the main crew members
1:27:56
Speaker 1: at the time. I said you gotta get out here.
1:27:59
Speaker 1: We found this. I sent him a picture of it
1:28:02
Speaker 1: and uh, I said you've got to bring a sauce
1:28:04
Speaker 1: all or something, because we got these roots wrapped around it. So, uh,
1:28:09
Speaker 1: one of the people where he was able to come
1:28:10
Speaker 1: out and he brought a sauceall and we were we
1:28:12
Speaker 1: knew by that point that it was pretty cool and
1:28:14
Speaker 1: that it was probably a canon or something. We didn't
1:28:16
Speaker 1: we've never seen one like that. Suite, how much of
1:28:19
Speaker 1: it were you looking at that moment, at that point
1:28:21
Speaker 1: in time? Like two inches of this thing? Are you
1:28:23
Speaker 1: already looking at of it? Um, when I called people,
1:28:27
Speaker 1: was the one you were realizing that you had something
1:28:31
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Well, I realized it was pretty darn awesome
1:28:34
Speaker 1: when I first dug down and only saw let's say
1:28:39
Speaker 1: six inches of it because enough of the CASCA bell
1:28:41
Speaker 1: was exposed and I could tell it was a bronze
1:28:44
Speaker 1: like material. I didn't know it was bronze, but you know,
1:28:46
Speaker 1: something like that and uh, something unusual and Um, and
1:28:51
Speaker 1: so I kept exposing it. But while I was digging it,
1:28:54
Speaker 1: I was also trying to figure out whether it was
1:28:56
Speaker 1: in some kind of pit or something, because the context,
1:28:59
Speaker 1: once again, is critical. So it turns out it wasn't.
1:29:03
Speaker 1: It was sitting on the floor of a destroyed structure
1:29:05
Speaker 1: from the battle. But UH, Chris took the metal detector
1:29:09
Speaker 1: and figured out it was real long. So we dug
1:29:11
Speaker 1: the whole thing and cleaned it out and stuff, and
1:29:14
Speaker 1: then the guy came out with a saws all and
1:29:16
Speaker 1: we were so protective. I was really glad I found
1:29:19
Speaker 1: it because I know how to dig the things. So
1:29:21
Speaker 1: I didn't put any dings or anything on it. I
1:29:23
Speaker 1: mean that's that's kind of a source of pride, but
1:29:25
Speaker 1: also here's this rare artifact and I didn't want to
1:29:29
Speaker 1: damage it anyway. So when we were using the SAWS alls,
1:29:31
Speaker 1: we were putting our hands to protect the can and
1:29:34
Speaker 1: I can't believe we did that. Finally, I said no,
1:29:39
Speaker 1: don't do that. Put your glove down. I mean that's
1:29:42
Speaker 1: how crazy it was. It was starting to get hot. Uh,
1:29:45
Speaker 1: it was only September, but September can be it was
1:29:49
Speaker 1: already September, but September can still be hot. By the
1:29:52
Speaker 1: time we finished up, we were just dripped and sweat
1:29:55
Speaker 1: and we were out of water and there were three
1:29:57
Speaker 1: of us out there and we just I mean at
1:29:59
Speaker 1: that point it was just a man we were just
1:30:01
Speaker 1: glad to get it out of there. But the reason
1:30:04
Speaker 1: we had to get it out that day is I've
1:30:06
Speaker 1: always had I think all archaeologists do this. Once you
1:30:08
Speaker 1: find something cool, you can't just bury it and come
1:30:12
Speaker 1: back the next day and finish it, because you feel
1:30:14
Speaker 1: like all these eyes are on you, you know, like
1:30:16
Speaker 1: radio hosts following you out to the site. So you
1:30:20
Speaker 1: got to get it out. Something that important you got
1:30:22
Speaker 1: to get out of the ground. So we stayed there
1:30:23
Speaker 1: until like two o'clock, I think it wasn't it, or
1:30:25
Speaker 1: just about dying it was hot. Describe the cannon like.
1:30:38
Speaker 1: How was it made? Where was it made? What would
1:30:40
Speaker 1: he use it for? Okay, so we've called it a
1:30:44
Speaker 1: wall gun, maybe a hack better, something as a hook,
1:30:46
Speaker 1: a gun with a hook on the bottom that they
1:30:49
Speaker 1: would put on a wall or parapet or something, or
1:30:52
Speaker 1: on a Tripod. Usually a shot by two men, one
1:30:55
Speaker 1: to light the match and the other one to hold it. Um. Yeah,
1:30:58
Speaker 1: God is a preliberal term and my thing for this thing.
1:31:01
Speaker 1: It is. But that's why that article that I gave you,
1:31:05
Speaker 1: I've written it with a weapons expert and all of
1:31:08
Speaker 1: his buddies have read it who are familiar with historic
1:31:12
Speaker 1: cannons and guns and so on. So guns a generic term.
1:31:16
Speaker 1: It is a cannon. But yeah, just a listener understands
1:31:19
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what you're describing it. It's
1:31:21
Speaker 1: basically like a in simple terms, it's like at you
1:31:29
Speaker 1: said seven gauge in the article. Yeah, yeah, I think
1:31:33
Speaker 1: it was like a millimeter. was roughly when it translated
1:31:38
Speaker 1: to yeah, the bore of it and surprisingly wasn't that heavy.
1:31:43
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be a lot heavier, but
1:31:45
Speaker 1: I think it cands around forty pounds and Um, it's uh,
1:31:51
Speaker 1: it's actually heavier than that. When people, everybody WHO's picked
1:31:54
Speaker 1: it up, point this is really kind of heavy. Um
1:31:57
Speaker 1: It uh. In two sites in the Albuquerque Bernolio area
1:32:01
Speaker 1: they found some of the shot that probably went with it.
1:32:04
Speaker 1: But at our site there's no walls too to bombard
1:32:09
Speaker 1: with the larger shots. So we think that they were shooting, uh,
1:32:14
Speaker 1: Buckshot or swan shot, you know, smaller lead balls. It
1:32:17
Speaker 1: wasn't loaded. Wasn't when you found it. It wasn't. Yeah,
1:32:22
Speaker 1: you should have brought you should have brought that thing here.
1:32:24
Speaker 1: Was For us to take a game. And no stock either.
1:32:29
Speaker 1: No stock either. That was interesting. Like that Hook that
1:32:32
Speaker 1: you were just talking about, like they think that they
1:32:34
Speaker 1: used to like use that as a way to control
1:32:38
Speaker 1: the weapon but also to manage the recoil a little bit. Exactly.
1:32:41
Speaker 1: Placed on the far side of a wall or the forest,
1:32:43
Speaker 1: the hook would be on the forest of a wall
1:32:45
Speaker 1: or a branch. So when the gun would recoil that, yeah, exactly,
1:32:50
Speaker 1: and that's probably part of what the two people in
1:32:52
Speaker 1: the tripod are about. Two because it would have knocked
1:32:55
Speaker 1: somebody over. Otherwise been pretty powerful, depending on the charge
1:32:58
Speaker 1: that was put in there. But yes, so, um, it's crude.
1:33:02
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to have makers marks. The PAN is
1:33:05
Speaker 1: not dished out. UH, there's no decoration we have. The
1:33:10
Speaker 1: PAN is not dished no, it's flat. So when they
1:33:13
Speaker 1: put priming powder around it is like would lay that
1:33:15
Speaker 1: priming powder around a flat little surface, Yep, and take
1:33:18
Speaker 1: a match and touch it to it and boom. Do
1:33:21
Speaker 1: you think it hadn't occurred to him to pan it out,
1:33:23
Speaker 1: like we're people panting out the archibuses and stuff by then? Yeah,
1:33:27
Speaker 1: it's just that's one reason we think it was made
1:33:30
Speaker 1: in Mexico, because we know that Cortez made a bunch.
1:33:34
Speaker 1: In fact, I've cided, I think, in that article Um,
1:33:38
Speaker 1: the quotations about how he made several. What we've discerned, too,
1:33:42
Speaker 1: is that this is actually a copper ally rather than
1:33:44
Speaker 1: really bronze. So it's a copper alloy, but they would
1:33:48
Speaker 1: have considered it bronze. It's close enough, you know. So
1:33:51
Speaker 1: for some reason I thought when I read your paper,
1:33:53
Speaker 1: I thought it was I thought you mentioned it being
1:33:54
Speaker 1: dished out, but it's just a flat little platform. Yeah,
1:33:57
Speaker 1: I'll show you a picture later, but it's just at
1:34:00
Speaker 1: and so there's a variety of reasons. Plus it would
1:34:03
Speaker 1: have been uh Um. Oh, here's the other thing. The
1:34:07
Speaker 1: the way you can see how it was cast. You
1:34:10
Speaker 1: can see the sprew marks on their still and as
1:34:13
Speaker 1: Um some of the experts have pointed out, no self
1:34:16
Speaker 1: respecting foundry in Spain would have left those on there.
1:34:20
Speaker 1: You know, there's a matter of pride in making Nice firearms.
1:34:22
Speaker 1: So so there's a variety of reasons and several of
1:34:25
Speaker 1: the experts who we sent that paper to agreed that
1:34:27
Speaker 1: it probably was made in Mexico, which is kind of cool.
1:34:30
Speaker 1: Who knows whether they made it specifically for this uh
1:34:35
Speaker 1: expedition or whether it was one of the ones that
1:34:37
Speaker 1: Cortez had. It certainly would have been. Would not have
1:34:40
Speaker 1: been a Columbus one, because his were iron as far
1:34:43
Speaker 1: as we know. Man. Yeah, the oldest, you know, even though, yeah,
1:34:48
Speaker 1: I said like gun, the oldest firearm whatever. We were
1:34:52
Speaker 1: trying to mix up the words, because you can only
1:34:54
Speaker 1: use cannon or law that are hacked but so many times.
1:34:57
Speaker 1: But like the oldest gone found in the continental us
1:35:03
Speaker 1: and it's certainly the oldest bronze one. Uh, and it's
1:35:06
Speaker 1: the only one from the CORNADO expedition. I mean it's
1:35:08
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal, it's pretty cool. Uh. We called it our
1:35:11
Speaker 1: trophy for a while so we didn't have to tell
1:35:13
Speaker 1: people what it was. Uh. You know, we're keeping it
1:35:15
Speaker 1: secret for a while so it really is our trophy artifact.
1:35:18
Speaker 1: There's UH, it's it's the coolest thing in the world. Yeah,
1:35:21
Speaker 1: it's kind of better than a helmet and a breastplate too,
1:35:25
Speaker 1: we decided. So have you found some of those? No,
1:35:27
Speaker 1: but we have found pieces of armor off those. And
1:35:30
Speaker 1: then there's two people in the area who found helmets,
1:35:34
Speaker 1: one of which has disappeared once again, is collected and
1:35:37
Speaker 1: is probably thrown away now, and the other one. I
1:35:39
Speaker 1: went up to talk to the guy and he was
1:35:41
Speaker 1: so secretive he wouldn't show it to me. So I'M
1:35:43
Speaker 1: gonna hopefully get a neighbor to go with me and
1:35:47
Speaker 1: and we'll talk him into how does he those are
1:35:50
Speaker 1: probably traded right among the tribes. Well, here's the interesting thing.
1:35:55
Speaker 1: Given that there was a battle there and many people
1:35:57
Speaker 1: were killed and then everybody else dispersed, I sus bact
1:36:00
Speaker 1: some were stashed in structures that the natives took somewhere,
1:36:04
Speaker 1: possibly buried, because that's how you did things when you
1:36:07
Speaker 1: wanted to store things at that time. You pretty much
1:36:09
Speaker 1: buried them if they are a value and they might
1:36:11
Speaker 1: have gotten dug up later. Um. In other cases, the
1:36:14
Speaker 1: natives killed some Spaniards and probably took them in. So
1:36:17
Speaker 1: some of them might have been uh ritually or ceremonially cashed.
1:36:21
Speaker 1: Some might have been destroyed uh in in retaliation, Um,
1:36:26
Speaker 1: some might have been traded to other people. There are
1:36:28
Speaker 1: pieces of armor reported all around, some which occur in
1:36:34
Speaker 1: the Apache area and Hacoma area, other natives of the time.
1:36:38
Speaker 1: So I suspect that they were in fact traded all
1:36:40
Speaker 1: over the place Um, and ended up, you know, across
1:36:43
Speaker 1: the landscape. That's why we have a halo of stuff
1:36:45
Speaker 1: around our site. Are you familiar with are you familiar with, Um,
1:36:50
Speaker 1: that Charlton has the movie called the mountain men? I
1:36:53
Speaker 1: should be in this. They go uh, it sort of
1:36:57
Speaker 1: takes place as the beaver getting diminished. Charlton Heston and
1:37:00
Speaker 1: his mountain man trapping partner go to a chief named
1:37:04
Speaker 1: iron belly who is supposed to be passing along to
1:37:08
Speaker 1: them a hot tip about where there's still a lot
1:37:10
Speaker 1: of beaver left. And he is wearing Spanish armor, and
1:37:15
Speaker 1: that's kind of like a plot point. The iron belly
1:37:18
Speaker 1: has like old Spanish armor, and so it sort of
1:37:21
Speaker 1: lodes this way that stuff from that era was traded
1:37:25
Speaker 1: around and it's being like up in Wyoming but I
1:37:29
Speaker 1: have a very hot tip for you, though. When you
1:37:31
Speaker 1: talk about the stat that there could be a stash
1:37:33
Speaker 1: of corneto helmets or whatever, do you know there's a
1:37:37
Speaker 1: rumor that after the battle of little big Horn, a
1:37:40
Speaker 1: bunch of the stuff, a bunch of the custer expedition stuff,
1:37:44
Speaker 1: was stashed in the cave cool and somebody found it
1:37:48
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago. Now, supposedly there's like a cash
1:37:55
Speaker 1: and some people have seen it or not, of like
1:37:59
Speaker 1: stuff that was like pulled off of the custer's command
1:38:02
Speaker 1: and buried in a cave nearby. Well, you know, I
1:38:05
Speaker 1: will say that, Um, if, if I hear all kinds
1:38:09
Speaker 1: of stories like this. In fact, I actually have some
1:38:12
Speaker 1: people call me up and then I questioned them a
1:38:14
Speaker 1: little bit and then they get a rate that I
1:38:16
Speaker 1: won't do the research for them or go out and
1:38:18
Speaker 1: find it for them. Uh. The latest one is some
1:38:21
Speaker 1: uh supposed gold bars found up in the superstition mountains
1:38:26
Speaker 1: that are actually quite sizeable and you can tell that
1:38:28
Speaker 1: they're painted gold and the earth around it is disturbed.
1:38:31
Speaker 1: I showed my brother, who's also an archaeologist, and I
1:38:33
Speaker 1: go look at this and he laughed. They're clearly not
1:38:36
Speaker 1: gold bars. They're not. They don't even look like gold
1:38:38
Speaker 1: bars from that period. And and you can tell as
1:38:40
Speaker 1: an archaeologist that the ground looks like a garden. You know,
1:38:43
Speaker 1: it's all disturbed. And he's telling me all these other
1:38:46
Speaker 1: things and trying to get me to be his P
1:38:48
Speaker 1: I for some research project. And it's like, Oh, you
1:38:51
Speaker 1: don't even need to do any work. And he doesn't understand.
1:38:53
Speaker 1: I don't just pass my authority around like that. It's
1:38:57
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be your P I, I'm going
1:38:59
Speaker 1: to do the work right. It's my reputation on the line.
1:39:02
Speaker 1: So but anyway, I get requests all the time of
1:39:04
Speaker 1: people lost, Dutchman mine gold, the iron door that's, you know,
1:39:10
Speaker 1: closing off of mine, the old Jesuit Gold, uh, paintings,
1:39:15
Speaker 1: religious paintings that have keys to where the gold is,
1:39:18
Speaker 1: and all this. I mean, I get it all the
1:39:19
Speaker 1: time and uh, you know, you can have a share
1:39:23
Speaker 1: of it or or you can't have a share of it,
1:39:25
Speaker 1: but I'll give you this. You know what I mean.
1:39:27
Speaker 1: It's just like I'm surprised Dan Brown hasn't reached out
1:39:31
Speaker 1: to you to do a and do a book. But
1:39:35
Speaker 1: do you do you actually then ever work. As you're saying,
1:39:38
Speaker 1: it's like a P I for somebody. Have you've been
1:39:40
Speaker 1: hired out to do a project that you have accepted
1:39:43
Speaker 1: along those lines? No, not along those lines, because I
1:39:47
Speaker 1: asked a lot of questions for I mean, I had
1:39:50
Speaker 1: a professor one time who said I send all the
1:39:54
Speaker 1: crack pots to you because I don't want to deal
1:39:57
Speaker 1: with them, and I said you really is that one
1:40:00
Speaker 1: of these is going to come through one of these days.
1:40:03
Speaker 1: But what I do is I talk to people and
1:40:06
Speaker 1: usually I see through the story or I asked so
1:40:09
Speaker 1: many questions that they just stop. UH, stop asking and
1:40:12
Speaker 1: stop communicating with me, because if I'm got to waste
1:40:16
Speaker 1: my time, I want to make sure it's real. Um,
1:40:21
Speaker 1: I don't do that kind of work anymore for anybody else.
1:40:25
Speaker 1: The only reason I would do it for the most
1:40:28
Speaker 1: part is, uh, if it was of a research interest
1:40:31
Speaker 1: interest to me. I have a couple of projects going
1:40:33
Speaker 1: on now. One is actually paid and I retired years ago.
1:40:36
Speaker 1: I just sold my company and do research full time.
1:40:40
Speaker 1: I started that in my mid forties. Um. So right
1:40:45
Speaker 1: now I'm working on the communee real in the El
1:40:46
Speaker 1: Paso area at Los Crusis a Passo area and interviewing
1:40:50
Speaker 1: natives about the trail that became a Spanish trail and
1:40:54
Speaker 1: cultural patterns and landscape and stuff, and then this coronado stuff.
1:40:57
Speaker 1: Anything I do other than Coronado distracts me from Coronado
1:41:00
Speaker 1: and that's all I want to do right now, and
1:41:02
Speaker 1: you can tell that I'm really into what I do
1:41:05
Speaker 1: and so anything that takes me away from that just
1:41:07
Speaker 1: as kind of you know, go away. I don't want
1:41:10
Speaker 1: to deal with it. But if somebody calls me up
1:41:12
Speaker 1: and they have a legitimate fine, or if they think
1:41:14
Speaker 1: they do, I treat them with respect because people are
1:41:18
Speaker 1: interested and there's a lot of people out there who
1:41:20
Speaker 1: have genuine interest or genuine find and I don't want
1:41:23
Speaker 1: to diminish those uh, in fact we want to incorporate
1:41:26
Speaker 1: them into the record if, if they are real. But
1:41:28
Speaker 1: there's so many people. Uh, you know, one of the
1:41:32
Speaker 1: questions that I got asked earlier was how did these
1:41:35
Speaker 1: people believe this uh wild stories about gold and stuff? Well,
1:41:40
Speaker 1: one is because in Mexico and Central America, South America,
1:41:44
Speaker 1: excuse me, they had found gold. But the other thing
1:41:47
Speaker 1: is even today you look around and people believe the
1:41:49
Speaker 1: most outrageous things. And you know, one person looks at
1:41:54
Speaker 1: the evidence and says that's B S and another one
1:41:56
Speaker 1: looks at it and goes wow, they have images of,
1:41:59
Speaker 1: you know, mountains of gold or whatever it is, and
1:42:02
Speaker 1: so it's just imagine, it's just a matter of people
1:42:06
Speaker 1: have always been attracted two legends. People have always been
1:42:11
Speaker 1: attracted to the goal just beyond. You know, that's why
1:42:14
Speaker 1: so many people play the lottery and stuff and go
1:42:18
Speaker 1: to the dog track or the horse track. I mean
1:42:20
Speaker 1: it's this chance of winning big. What is not to
1:42:23
Speaker 1: be exciting about that? I mean that's just you know,
1:42:27
Speaker 1: that's why people eat lucky charms for breakfast. Here you go.
1:42:32
Speaker 1: Do you feel that? If you imagine the the cannon
1:42:39
Speaker 1: location as a center of a circle, what is the
1:42:43
Speaker 1: radius that you're interested in? Like after this battle, I
1:42:49
Speaker 1: mean they probably whatever, like dismembered, somebodies buried, Um, like
1:42:55
Speaker 1: stuff happened, right. I mean there was a lot of stuff. Well,
1:42:59
Speaker 1: the is a kilometer long as we understand it now.
1:43:03
Speaker 1: So that's UH, ten football fields, okay, and and six
1:43:07
Speaker 1: of those wide, including the lookout stations. It's probably going
1:43:11
Speaker 1: to be a kilometer and a half long by the
1:43:13
Speaker 1: time we finished, we just had to stop because of
1:43:14
Speaker 1: the heat. But uh, we have evidence of occupation and
1:43:20
Speaker 1: battle throughout that area. In fact, one area we have
1:43:23
Speaker 1: what they called weapons of the land. We have some
1:43:25
Speaker 1: of those, in other words what the people who weren't
1:43:29
Speaker 1: shooting arquebuses and shooting crossbows were using, in other words
1:43:34
Speaker 1: what they gathered, what the natives made for them or
1:43:36
Speaker 1: they made themselves. So we have these different areas. We
1:43:40
Speaker 1: can see the Spaniards being chased across the landscape, we
1:43:43
Speaker 1: can see them battle, moving and so on. Um, so
1:43:47
Speaker 1: I forget what your question was. I'm sorry. How big
1:43:49
Speaker 1: of an area? I was asked like how big of
1:43:51
Speaker 1: an area, because they're like stuff's gotta be there, there
1:43:57
Speaker 1: is stuff there, right. But well, like I said, we're
1:44:02
Speaker 1: not looking for bodies right now. Yeah, so that's a
1:44:06
Speaker 1: whole different approach, right. You can't metal detect form. Well,
1:44:10
Speaker 1: if they have knives in them and so on, you could,
1:44:13
Speaker 1: but no remembers. You saying if you find a body,
1:44:16
Speaker 1: it's kind of yeah, I'll go down there and take
1:44:19
Speaker 1: a look. Where's this place? Where's this place again? It's
1:44:25
Speaker 1: in South America, Patagonia, down there. Um, but how many
1:44:31
Speaker 1: years will you spend there? You think, UM, probably five.
1:44:34
Speaker 1: And the reason I say five, I've been saying that
1:44:36
Speaker 1: since the beginning, is because it's going to take a lot.
1:44:39
Speaker 1: We're only about half done metal detecting. Plus, we in
1:44:42
Speaker 1: the part that we know about and then we got
1:44:44
Speaker 1: to expand it to the north and south. I think
1:44:46
Speaker 1: it does go further. Uh. Plus, I want to keep
1:44:49
Speaker 1: digging this and a few other structures, but we want
1:44:52
Speaker 1: to leave some in place and I think they're about
1:44:54
Speaker 1: five years. That's enough damage, because what we do is
1:44:57
Speaker 1: archaeologists damages the site. Whether we like to think that
1:45:00
Speaker 1: way or not, we know it does. I'm taking things
1:45:02
Speaker 1: out of context. What I'm doing is I'm putting markers
1:45:05
Speaker 1: down and, uh, using a global positioning system unit to
1:45:10
Speaker 1: mark where they're at so we can know exactly where
1:45:12
Speaker 1: they came from. And then the whole thing is gritted
1:45:14
Speaker 1: and stuff. Now, not the whole thing, but where we're digging. So, Um,
1:45:18
Speaker 1: what my goal is is to drive just enough information
1:45:21
Speaker 1: that I can convince all reasonable people, and maybe even
1:45:25
Speaker 1: some of the serious skeptics, that we actually have the
1:45:28
Speaker 1: town site of San Hieronimo three, that it's actually a
1:45:33
Speaker 1: place where they built structures, where a lot of people lived,
1:45:36
Speaker 1: where other activities went on and so on. Uh, and
1:45:38
Speaker 1: then I'll stop and save it for the future. I
1:45:41
Speaker 1: want to I want to explain to listeners a little
1:45:43
Speaker 1: bit of what you're talking about by saving it for
1:45:45
Speaker 1: the future. And it's just an archaeological site that I'm
1:45:49
Speaker 1: kind of the only one I have any real level of,
1:45:53
Speaker 1: you know, Armchair Authority on. would be when the folsome
1:46:00
Speaker 1: site where they found it was kind of the smoking
1:46:03
Speaker 1: gun of humans in America during the Ice Age, where
1:46:08
Speaker 1: they found Bison skeletons intermixed with projectile points. When they
1:46:13
Speaker 1: originally dug it, they were just looking for big ship
1:46:17
Speaker 1: they're looking for big bones. Later people had to go back,
1:46:22
Speaker 1: archaeologists later went back and had to go sift their
1:46:25
Speaker 1: debris pile for all the stuff they didn't think to
1:46:29
Speaker 1: look for, which is really helpful. Like no one thought pollen, right,
1:46:35
Speaker 1: no one thought about just like small chunks of wood,
1:46:38
Speaker 1: little bits of charcoal, whatever else. And then later, like now, right,
1:46:43
Speaker 1: they have this idea that, man, if we could have
1:46:44
Speaker 1: just found the sort of plant matter mixed in with
1:46:51
Speaker 1: that stuff, it tell you something like what the climate
1:46:53
Speaker 1: was like you know, timey year stuff and all that.
1:46:57
Speaker 1: So I like like when you say like save something
1:46:59
Speaker 1: like who knows, and in a hundred years you might
1:47:02
Speaker 1: go and take a little dirt and run it through
1:47:04
Speaker 1: some machine and it will be like no, there's a
1:47:05
Speaker 1: women here. That's exactly my point. We cannot predict what
1:47:09
Speaker 1: future technologies are going to be able to tell us,
1:47:11
Speaker 1: what the future analyses are going to be able to
1:47:13
Speaker 1: tell us, and that's what we have to be cognizant of.
1:47:16
Speaker 1: I'm collecting as much data as I can. Well, you know,
1:47:20
Speaker 1: like I said, this is the only coronado structure that
1:47:22
Speaker 1: we know of that has a cannon in it. So
1:47:24
Speaker 1: I have a responsibility there. Now I would only dig
1:47:26
Speaker 1: half of it if I could figure the structure out
1:47:28
Speaker 1: without digging the whole thing, but I need to dig
1:47:31
Speaker 1: the whole thing, unfortunately, and I'm going to dig some
1:47:34
Speaker 1: others that are associated with it, but for the most
1:47:36
Speaker 1: part the town site is going to remain intact so
1:47:38
Speaker 1: that some other professional can come and ask new questions, uh,
1:47:42
Speaker 1: using new technologies, new types of analyzes, and answer questions
1:47:46
Speaker 1: that I can't even fathom right now. But in terms
1:47:49
Speaker 1: of you demonstrating like hey, this is something that needs
1:47:56
Speaker 1: to be paid attention to and needs to be protected.
1:47:59
Speaker 1: I mean you gotta be Oh, we're there. I was
1:48:01
Speaker 1: there basically the first day. I mean, you know, the
1:48:04
Speaker 1: first first day we had like a half a dozen
1:48:08
Speaker 1: of the gabled headed nails, and then the second day
1:48:10
Speaker 1: we had a crossbow bolt head with many more of
1:48:12
Speaker 1: them and other artifacts, and then it just kept building.
1:48:14
Speaker 1: And so we knew we had coronado. At that time
1:48:16
Speaker 1: I thought it was just an encampment and then it
1:48:18
Speaker 1: got bigger and bigger. So even if it was just
1:48:20
Speaker 1: an encampment with just those things, that would be important
1:48:22
Speaker 1: because none had been found in Arizona. None had been
1:48:25
Speaker 1: found in the fift miles between Compostella and Zuni. Right.
1:48:30
Speaker 1: So Uh. So, in and of itself that was important.
1:48:33
Speaker 1: And then after a while it's I tried to explain
1:48:36
Speaker 1: the battle ofvience away other ways, because that's what I'm
1:48:38
Speaker 1: supposed to do as an archaeologists consider all of the
1:48:41
Speaker 1: possible explanations for what I'm finding, and finally I had
1:48:45
Speaker 1: to settle on the battle. And then once we figured
1:48:47
Speaker 1: out it was a battle site, then I started back
1:48:49
Speaker 1: checking through the records, recognizing that maybe not all battles
1:48:52
Speaker 1: were accounted for in the documents because they weren't supposed
1:48:55
Speaker 1: to be fighting the natives. But it started making sense
1:48:58
Speaker 1: with it being sent heronomous. So I don't think anybody
1:49:01
Speaker 1: who's actually heard the data, seeing the data and so on,
1:49:04
Speaker 1: and we've had lots of archaeologists and historians of the site,
1:49:06
Speaker 1: I don't think they questioned that at Suya in the
1:49:09
Speaker 1: Siuja Valley, send heronimo three in the Suja Valley. I
1:49:11
Speaker 1: think the questions are is um whether it was an
1:49:15
Speaker 1: actual official town site, because that was a contractual thing
1:49:19
Speaker 1: with the king, and I'm arguing that. I think there's
1:49:22
Speaker 1: enough evidence in the documentary reacted to say that there
1:49:25
Speaker 1: that it was. And then the other thing that some
1:49:28
Speaker 1: of the people are disputing is the way the route went. Well,
1:49:31
Speaker 1: I have four sights and they line up West East.
1:49:34
Speaker 1: At this point I'm trying to check other possibilities, but
1:49:37
Speaker 1: right now that's what it's suggesting, which might suggest a
1:49:40
Speaker 1: route that's a little further west, even in in Sonora.
1:49:44
Speaker 1: But that the reason I object to everybody insisting that
1:49:48
Speaker 1: it goes up the Sonora and then down the San
1:49:51
Speaker 1: Pedro and it has to be that with a sidetrack
1:49:54
Speaker 1: is because that's what everybody's thought and they haven't found
1:49:56
Speaker 1: any evidence of Coronado. And here I found evidence Coronado
1:49:59
Speaker 1: Becau has. I haven't accepted that as God's turn. Yeah,
1:50:03
Speaker 1: you thought that's not the route. Yeah, that's kind of
1:50:11
Speaker 1: my point. That's how we archaeologists constructive and they think
1:50:13
Speaker 1: it's a side route. I said, well, did you find
1:50:15
Speaker 1: the evidence there? So I'm trying to check. I'd love
1:50:18
Speaker 1: to see the main route. Yeah, exactly, but I mean
1:50:22
Speaker 1: that's the whole point here. Is the thing that irritates
1:50:25
Speaker 1: me about that is they keep trying to pull me
1:50:27
Speaker 1: back into the Rut of old thinking, and the only
1:50:29
Speaker 1: reason I'm finding this is I'm thinking outside the box.
1:50:32
Speaker 1: I'm I'm considering all other possibilities that I can think
1:50:35
Speaker 1: of and as I search and find things, the new
1:50:38
Speaker 1: possibilities come to mind and I check those out. So
1:50:41
Speaker 1: if they keep trying to pull me back into the
1:50:43
Speaker 1: you know, it has to be Sonora River and it
1:50:45
Speaker 1: has to be San Pedro, then I start thinking like
1:50:48
Speaker 1: everybody's been thinking and I need to think. Okay, I've
1:50:51
Speaker 1: got four sites, how do I connect them? I have
1:50:53
Speaker 1: a fifth artifact that needs to somehow come into that,
1:50:56
Speaker 1: plus this halo of things. How would those fit together? Well,
1:51:00
Speaker 1: trying to connect the two on the West to the
1:51:02
Speaker 1: two on the east, on the southeast. Is that one
1:51:05
Speaker 1: trail or do we have two trails or more trails?
1:51:08
Speaker 1: You know, the funny thing about this rock art that
1:51:10
Speaker 1: I brought up earlier is there's a signature on the
1:51:13
Speaker 1: side of the Rock and it looks it's scratched in
1:51:15
Speaker 1: and it looks like it says t o b a
1:51:17
Speaker 1: R and that was one of the captain, one of
1:51:19
Speaker 1: the lieutenants, uh, Pedro Da Tovar, and uh, I think
1:51:27
Speaker 1: people are gonna want to know this. How does one
1:51:30
Speaker 1: date stuff it scratched into a rock? You don't. I
1:51:33
Speaker 1: mean if it's scratched in. Basically, on the rock art
1:51:37
Speaker 1: that I showed you can see that some of it
1:51:39
Speaker 1: is older than others because some has regained some weathering
1:51:42
Speaker 1: on it right. So if you have one rock you
1:51:46
Speaker 1: can tell by some is older because it's more weather
1:51:50
Speaker 1: and some is fresher. Some of it overlies older stuff.
1:51:53
Speaker 1: So that's one way. It's all relative dating. But also,
1:51:56
Speaker 1: as I was kind of discussing earlier, uh, if you
1:52:01
Speaker 1: analyze this rock art in relation to a codex from Cortes,
1:52:09
Speaker 1: the Cortes period in Mexico, you can see that the dress, shoes,
1:52:14
Speaker 1: hat and everything is just like what cortes is wearing
1:52:18
Speaker 1: in one of the images. So Um. So basically that's
1:52:22
Speaker 1: another way to data as well. Now, that's not going
1:52:24
Speaker 1: to convince everybody, and not everybody is going to be
1:52:26
Speaker 1: convinced that the signature says Tobar. There's also a cross
1:52:30
Speaker 1: above it, which is what Spaniards did when they were
1:52:34
Speaker 1: signing their name and documents and writing documents on paper.
1:52:38
Speaker 1: So I mean, if we just had that, then I'd
1:52:41
Speaker 1: say maybe some natives saw that, saw the expedition in
1:52:44
Speaker 1: a different valley and carved it when they got home.
1:52:47
Speaker 1: But we have coronado artifacts associated with it, uh, and
1:52:51
Speaker 1: we have these clearings. So it looks like it's campsite.
1:52:54
Speaker 1: Now it's possible that it's a side route or a
1:52:58
Speaker 1: second route. We know that Pedro Tovar went on other
1:53:04
Speaker 1: side trips. He took a detachment and went and discovered
1:53:08
Speaker 1: other places or inspected other places and so on. People
1:53:11
Speaker 1: were already there, so it wasn't discovered. But uh, so
1:53:14
Speaker 1: it's very likely that when they were coming through they
1:53:16
Speaker 1: were looking for an alternate route and he may have
1:53:18
Speaker 1: gone off. So it's possible. So that's the third possibility.
1:53:21
Speaker 1: We have two routes. We have a route that UH,
1:53:26
Speaker 1: dips down to the southeast and connects them all, or
1:53:29
Speaker 1: we have one route to the northeast from where we're at,
1:53:33
Speaker 1: and this is a side trip where he went to
1:53:36
Speaker 1: look to see if there was gold or water. You know, uh,
1:53:40
Speaker 1: we may be able to tell by the time I finish,
1:53:42
Speaker 1: but at a certain point I'm going to stop looking
1:53:44
Speaker 1: and somebody else is gonna have to fill in and
1:53:46
Speaker 1: I get to tell the story I the way I want,
1:53:48
Speaker 1: if I'm the one looking for the sites and finding them.
1:53:51
Speaker 1: Will you stay on? Will you stay on Coronado till
1:53:53
Speaker 1: you die, or you think you'll get onto something, get
1:53:55
Speaker 1: onto something else? Well, I'm planning to live to a
1:53:58
Speaker 1: D and twenty, so I think by the time I
1:54:00
Speaker 1: get to a hundred I'm probably gonna stop looking, but
1:54:02
Speaker 1: you're gonna stay on the Coronado deal as long as
1:54:04
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me. That's how I do things. I
1:54:07
Speaker 1: don't have to do this, I do this because it's interesting.
1:54:12
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at the top of my career.
1:54:15
Speaker 1: I've spent all this time learning how to do this well, uh,
1:54:19
Speaker 1: and there's nothing I'd rather do in retirement. This is
1:54:22
Speaker 1: kind of my golf game and uh, I'm not really
1:54:26
Speaker 1: especially in the Gulf. So it's my way of uh,
1:54:30
Speaker 1: entertaining myself, keeping my mind engaged, staying healthy mentally when
1:54:35
Speaker 1: I'm out in the field. It keeps me healthy and
1:54:37
Speaker 1: physically it's good exercise, Um, and it's so intriguing. It's
1:54:42
Speaker 1: for me. You know, the people in the Coronado expedition.
1:54:46
Speaker 1: Someone went to get rich and everything, but everybody was
1:54:48
Speaker 1: kind of on an adventure, which is unfortunate for the
1:54:51
Speaker 1: native people. That's kind of what modern tourism is like.
1:54:54
Speaker 1: In a way. We kind of damage cultures as we
1:54:57
Speaker 1: go and embark on our adventures. But Um, but in
1:55:02
Speaker 1: a way this is an adventure for me. I'm discovering
1:55:06
Speaker 1: new things. Uh, it's every day is an adventure. I mean,
1:55:10
Speaker 1: people the crew keeps saying the site keeps giving it's
1:55:12
Speaker 1: amazing what we thought it was and how it keeps
1:55:15
Speaker 1: growing and all this interesting UH knowledge and artifacts that
1:55:20
Speaker 1: keep coming out that allow us to enrich the story
1:55:23
Speaker 1: and as long as it keeps doing that and as
1:55:25
Speaker 1: long as people keep giving me access landowners, and as
1:55:28
Speaker 1: long as we keep finding things, and as long as
1:55:29
Speaker 1: I continue to have volunteers who are as enthusiastic and
1:55:32
Speaker 1: dedicated as they are, I'll just keep doing it until
1:55:35
Speaker 1: I get tired of it or I run out of money.
1:55:37
Speaker 1: You know, this is all self supported, although I did
1:55:40
Speaker 1: have a couple of donors recently donate to the research
1:55:43
Speaker 1: part and then we've had some donors donate to the film,
1:55:47
Speaker 1: documentary film, but we need a lot more donors to
1:55:49
Speaker 1: make that happen. So tell and conclusion, tell us how
1:55:56
Speaker 1: you know if someone wants to volunteer or lens support, like,
1:55:59
Speaker 1: how was the best way to go learn about what
1:56:03
Speaker 1: you have going on, connect with you or your people. If, if,
1:56:07
Speaker 1: if someone, someone's like Hey, I got one of them
1:56:09
Speaker 1: bronze hats. Well, if they have one of those, they
1:56:12
Speaker 1: can talk to you guys and get my phone number directly,
1:56:16
Speaker 1: but it's better be real, not one of those Uh
1:56:20
Speaker 1: tinfoil ones, Um uh. Well, I have a web page
1:56:24
Speaker 1: that has some contact information on there, and the film,
1:56:29
Speaker 1: Uh documentary films by Professional Documentary Film Crew Francis Kasi
1:56:34
Speaker 1: Films and uh they she has a web page. Uh
1:56:38
Speaker 1: and uh do you have a title for that yet
1:56:40
Speaker 1: or for the film? No, we haven't decided. But we
1:56:43
Speaker 1: have cornado films ll LC, and there's ways that people
1:56:47
Speaker 1: can donate to that, either directly, if they don't need
1:56:50
Speaker 1: a tax deduction, or through from the heart productions, which
1:56:55
Speaker 1: is a nonprofit. So you can get a tax credit
1:56:59
Speaker 1: for that. And then I have an organization that I'm
1:57:01
Speaker 1: working with that UH takes the money in for the
1:57:04
Speaker 1: research and would take sizeable sums in or small sums
1:57:09
Speaker 1: for the film, without taking anything off the top. So
1:57:12
Speaker 1: there's a variety of ways to do it and I
1:57:14
Speaker 1: would appreciate it because, like I said, I totally self funded,
1:57:18
Speaker 1: except for these more recent donations that have coming in.
1:57:20
Speaker 1: People are really getting thrilled about what we're finding and
1:57:23
Speaker 1: so on. You gotta have some universities beating your door
1:57:26
Speaker 1: down now. Oh No, they're jealous. Um, don't forget to
1:57:34
Speaker 1: mention you have a youtube channel with some interesting like
1:57:38
Speaker 1: a little about dating, like you're asking like how do
1:57:41
Speaker 1: you know when you're looking at whatever? Just mentioned that,
1:57:45
Speaker 1: and then also your academia web page with like all
1:57:49
Speaker 1: of your papers, books. I mean there's so much open
1:57:53
Speaker 1: information that we could where we can go to read
1:57:55
Speaker 1: your work right. So on Youtube, it's just under my name.
1:57:59
Speaker 1: You can find it and there's some corn on that
1:58:00
Speaker 1: other stuff, D e n I, and then s e
1:58:03
Speaker 1: y m o U R, and then the academia page
1:58:06
Speaker 1: the same. It's under independent UH researcher. I think. Also
1:58:12
Speaker 1: with research gate, same thing, although that has fewer articles.
1:58:15
Speaker 1: You can download articles for free on there. You don't
1:58:17
Speaker 1: have to pay to get on UH. And then I
1:58:19
Speaker 1: have a Web page that I'm just starting up. The
1:58:22
Speaker 1: old one I forgot to pay for and it's kind
1:58:24
Speaker 1: of a funk, so I'm starting to do Um, it
1:58:27
Speaker 1: needed to be updated anyway. Yeah, and all your listeners,
1:58:33
Speaker 1: I will link to this and all of her I'll
1:58:36
Speaker 1: link to all of this in the show notes and Um. Yeah,
1:58:40
Speaker 1: and the film is really what we're looking for funding
1:58:42
Speaker 1: for now. I just saw a rough cut of it
1:58:44
Speaker 1: the other day. Oh, it was fabulous. I was scared
1:58:47
Speaker 1: because I we archaeologists like to be behind the camera,
1:58:51
Speaker 1: not in front, and so I was prepared to be
1:58:53
Speaker 1: really embarrassed. They did in a phenomenal ask as a
1:58:56
Speaker 1: host seriously because you care, but not too much. It's
1:59:01
Speaker 1: like a sweet spot. Well, thank you, I've got I've
1:59:07
Speaker 1: got one more last question. It might be the most
1:59:09
Speaker 1: important one, to be honest. I mean in the film
1:59:12
Speaker 1: Indiana Jones and the last crusade, that movie opens with
1:59:17
Speaker 1: River Phoenix as a young Indiana Jones, stumbling onto some
1:59:20
Speaker 1: grave robbers, if you want to call him that, finding
1:59:23
Speaker 1: a crucifix from the Coronado Expedition, and then he has
1:59:26
Speaker 1: to he tries to protect it and escapes. I'm just
1:59:28
Speaker 1: wondering if you two have ever, uh, protected any of
1:59:31
Speaker 1: your fines by by jumping onto a passing circus train
1:59:35
Speaker 1: and falling into a pit of snakes, leading into your
1:59:38
Speaker 1: lifelong phobia of snakes that will follow you over the restaurant.
1:59:40
Speaker 1: I do have a lifelong phobia of rattle snakes because
1:59:45
Speaker 1: I've run into probably a thousand of them since I
1:59:47
Speaker 1: was a little tiny girl. Um, I did find Coronado's
1:59:51
Speaker 1: cross on our site. One day. Two of my crew
1:59:56
Speaker 1: members called me over and they had an ice chest
1:59:59
Speaker 1: right there, so I kind of knew something was up.
2:00:01
Speaker 1: Metal detective and they had planted this Coronado's cross with
2:00:04
Speaker 1: fake jewels on it. Yeah, so, normally we don't plant
2:00:14
Speaker 1: things like that because it can distract, you know, but
2:00:16
Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty funny. So so I wrote
2:00:19
Speaker 1: to Harrison Ford asking if he would contribute, because here's
2:00:24
Speaker 1: the real, you know, real deal here. Uh, and I
2:00:30
Speaker 1: never heard back from his agent. But Um, if you're
2:00:32
Speaker 1: out there, you know we need funding for the film.
2:00:37
Speaker 1: We have an Emmy Award winning director, uh, and so on.
2:00:40
Speaker 1: So that's great. Yeah, so look forward to seeing it. Yeah,
2:00:45
Speaker 1: me too. Good luck. Thank you. Thanks for having me
2:00:49
Speaker 1: stay in touch with Karin. So you know, we can
2:00:53
Speaker 1: have like an update in a year or two. Sure. Yeah, absolutely,
2:00:56
Speaker 1: and then maybe, uh, if Steve decide to not claim
2:01:01
Speaker 1: artifacts from mother dig sides, you can go volunteer with
2:01:06
Speaker 1: Danny and satisfier, like an antiquities looter. We checked. It's like,
2:01:13
Speaker 1: you know, some people have like a devil and a angel.
2:01:16
Speaker 1: I got like an antiquities looter on one shoulder and
2:01:19
Speaker 1: archeology and I got two dragons here gone and snakes,
2:01:26
Speaker 1: none of that. None of that. Well, thanks. Yeah, there's
2:01:30
Speaker 1: so much coming. I hope some people reach out and
2:01:33
Speaker 1: they might have a hot tip, because I could I
2:01:35
Speaker 1: could picture some dude out hunting antelope or desert big
2:01:38
Speaker 1: horns and he'd be like, you know, I've seen something
2:01:40
Speaker 1: like that one time. Well, we'll name the side after
2:01:43
Speaker 1: somebody if they come forward with something, an expedition. In fact,
2:01:46
Speaker 1: I've already promised that to one guy who you're sweeting
2:01:49
Speaker 1: the deal. You don't get to keep it, put on
2:01:52
Speaker 1: your mantle, but on the map it will be. Well.
2:01:56
Speaker 1: If they found it on private land, they do get
2:01:58
Speaker 1: to keep it, but we'd hope that if they realize
2:02:00
Speaker 1: what it is, that upon their death or sooner, they
2:02:03
Speaker 1: would agree to put it somewhere where it can be available,
2:02:07
Speaker 1: you know. So everybody keep your eyes peeled. Brass helmets, cannons,
2:02:13
Speaker 1: crosses with jewels, the jeweling crossed cross. If you find that,
2:02:18
Speaker 1: Danny Seymour as the person you talk to, not Indiana Jones.
2:02:24
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone,