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Trans Health Matters. Trans Lives Matter. w/ Myles Markham · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question, because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church usa.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I am your host, Lee Cato,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm your host Simon Dune.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I am joined as always by the I.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I was like, I was gonna say youthful, and then I I'm just gonna say exuberate, I'm not
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Youthful.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: , um, not now.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: You know, my, my birthday was on Sunday, and That's true.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: You're
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Happy.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I'm 35, so I am like reaching the, the mid thirties.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I have reached the mid thirties.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, by Presbyterian age you're still a young person, so I
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Know by, by any denomination really, I am probably seen as almost a 20 year old, which that it's just still fascinates me that also people also refer to millennials as young, and I'm like, there are millennials now who are 40.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: It's true.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I know a millennial who is a grandparent like.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's like, all right, y'all, you gotta get next to the next generation if you're gonna call us young.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: So, yeah,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: It's
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Bizarre,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: But, right.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Well, how are you doing, Lee?
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I'm good.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I am pro.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I think I'm over caffeinated, so if I am like wired, which I feel like I am, and I talk really fast, I apologize to our listeners, but I am tired too.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I was up late and you know, it, this beginning of the year has been very busy, probably for both of us, but it's, it's just been very interesting how 2023 has started.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: But, but yeah, I'm okay.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: How are you doing?
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: I'm doing all right.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It is cold today.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Very usual, but nothing new there out here.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: In the mountain west.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Just grateful to have a jacket that can keep me warm.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: .
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: It's cold and rainy today here, but I am very grateful for heat and, and yeah.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: But it's really good to see you.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: And it's been, but it has been a rough, it's just been a rough beginning of the year, which kind of brings us to the, to our news item for today.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: So in, I believe it's in the last week, there have been a, a number of, of shootings across the country.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Folks might have heard about two in California, uh, in Monterey Park, as well as in Half Moon Bay.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: And then there was also one in Des Moines, Iowa.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: And then another in, I believe it's Yakima, Washington.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And again, just starting the year off with more incidents of gun violence, uh, obviously prayers are with the communities and families and victims of those affected, but it's just a lot.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: It is a lot.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: And it's just, you know, we, we have this, we, we do this all the time.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, the more we talk about it, the more of a, of less numb we get to the fact that it's happening all the time.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Gun violence and, and also the intersection with racism and the, and all those systems within that too.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And, you know, it happened on the lunar New Year for our, for our siblings who celebrate that.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: And like, it's just really kind of exhausting to think about like, there are ways to do this and to regulate this very easily, but it's so kind of politicized that it just makes, it's just hard to make sense of it all in a way that, that that's logical because it's not logical.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's one of those things that I think we should always be talking about, because you don't need to become numb to it because people are suffering and it's all at the hands of a lot of money and a lot of hate.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: And I am devastated by that.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: So sending up a lot of prayers for people and, but also calling out people to say, you know, again, we gotta do something.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: And so call your congresspeople, call whoever you can sign petitions, get out there, because again, we say it all the time.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Enough is enough.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: And I realize I, I left one incident out by accident.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, another one in Oakland, California.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Mm.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Prayer.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Prayer for all those folks as well.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Prayers for everybody.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: And yeah, one day we will hopefully see a substantial amount of gun regulation Yeah.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: At some point.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: So,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: We hope that maybe eventually we'll be able to agree as, as a society, as a people, as a country, to just sort of draw the line and say, enough is enough.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: And guns do not have, and, and the fact that the, that people say guns, God and what else it country or something like that
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Gun.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Was it guns, God and glory?
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Maybe like, that's the thing.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Guns God, country.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: And people have equated guns in with faith and, sorry,, I don't, I'm not really sure that that is a completely accurate thing.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: And, and some of it comes from many people equating the constitution with a divine ordained document, which again, y'all, if you're a person of faith, that is not necessarily something that I've ever come across when I've seen theology and, and things like that.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: So I think it is something that people in the church and in faith communities have a very big opportunity to continue to have conversations and to call people out and to keep people accountable.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: And I, I encourage y'all to go listen to, it's, to an episode of a matter of faith that we talk about gun violence and we put that link in the show notes and it was, it was a, a really good one.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, go, go read up and educate yourself and all those things.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I don't believe God likes guns, so whatever that's worth.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: You know what I do think God likes Lee?
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: What?
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Boundaries.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: .
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: .
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: And speaking of boundaries,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Well that, well, let's see.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Well we could play with that healthy ban, but healthy, healthy, healthy, healthy boundaries.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: There
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: We go.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Healthy boundaries.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: God likes healthy boundaries.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say folks.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: And also force a segue as we get to our question written in this week about boundaries.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Which reads, how can we create and navigate healthy boundaries as members of churches and leaders in faith communities?
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: And I appreciate this question because I'm not a pastor.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: I've worked with quite a few pastors, I know a lot of pastors know a lot of ordained folk.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: And I think something that people don't always realize is how lonely it can sometimes be as a pastor.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Which may sound very strange because you are a member of the community, you're active in the community you're constantly dealing with and in relationship with people.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: But the thing is that you're not always able to be both someone's pastor and their friend.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: And those things are different.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: You, you have a sort of a different type of relationship, a different type of role.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: And I've observed that with folks that it sometimes can be hard to navigate that dynamic with your congregants, with your parishioners or with those that report to you if you're ahead of staff.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: And it, and it brings me back to the conversation that we had with Timothy watching when he was reflecting on his first year of being an ordained pastor.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: And something that I had, I had asked was, do you have issues with congregants always trying to be your friend when actually you are their pastor?
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And that relationship is different.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: And what he had said was, because of the demographics of the congregation, I don't have the issues of people trying to be my friend.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Because people are, this, people in this congregation are generally older.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: They always want to treat me like their grandson.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Which is also a different type of boundary and a different type of relationship.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: So it's complicated.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: And if we wanna be able to create and navigate healthy boundaries, that probably involves setting expectations, which is hard, especially whether you're a pastor or whether you're the parishioner.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Cuz sometimes you both would probably like more, but maybe you should just be okay with, I don't wanna say be okay with less, cuz that sounds inaccurate to what I'm trying to say.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: But just recognizing there are some things that you probably shouldn't or can't do for each other and that that's okay.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And, and I know different ministers and I've worked in the church like congregational churches for a little bit, not as long as a lot of people have, but it is a, it is a, it is a fine line to walk because you are in a sense involved in people's lives and you are involved in people, whatever they decide to kind of talk to you about.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Or when it comes to family dynamics or when it comes to whether they're sick or there are a lot of things that come up and like pastoral care, that also is a boundary.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: There's only so much pastoral care can do when it co when it goes into other types of care.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Because unless you have a deg, unless you have training to be a therapist, there's only so much you can do as a pastor in that thing.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: So there's a boundary too there.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: But, but I think that, you know, going into ministry and doing the work that we both do now, you see where in some cases those boundaries can get very messy, very quick.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: And it is hard to, to kind of put up that boundary and it, and sometimes it's often too late and it's often already messy when that happens.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: And I've always been not so much in your face about it, like, oh, I'm not gonna be your friend cause I'm technically your pastor.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Like, that's a little, I don't know if I would do that.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: But I do think, and everybody has their own context for the previous minister, if that person didn't necessarily have boundaries or their boundaries were a little too, like, cuz I think boundaries can also be a little too rigid.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: There has to be some kind of flexibility there.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: But I think there's a lot of expectations that come along with, with people's just mentality of what they know as minister.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: And so I do think it, it is one of the problems that a lot of ministers do have and a lot of congregants have to accept because in all actuality, the church sometimes has too much ownership over their minister and pastor.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I think that that is why we see a lot of ministers not necessarily wanting to do ministry anymore.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: It's exhausting.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: There's also a lot, a lot of support.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: There's not a lot of actual, like specifically in this denomination where things are done by people who are volunteering and different sessions and like it's elected, it's all congregational kind of led.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: And, and so it's just very interesting that there's also not like a sometimes not an unbiased entity somewhere that can help with this kinds of stuff.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: And, and, and that's always been interesting too.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: But I, I think it, it is a hard thing to do and, and I hope that a lot of ministers out there can, can go and, and figure out what the boundary is for them.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And that takes getting to know yourself, that takes getting to know things that trigger you or things that may kind of open up a door that where that boundary might be crossed.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: And, and these boundaries, whether it be friend or whether it be something that may or may not be appropriate, that's another boundary that I think that a lot of people, you know, you don't want to think about that when you're going into something.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: But there, there are liabilities and there are things that I think that people should be having conversations about, about what boundaries are and, and being honest about that.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: And so it's re it is really funny that you said like, well, bringing up Timothy's thing, because I remember one of the first times I was in a church that everybody was like, oh, you're the same age as my son.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Uh, and, and you, and you fi you kind of got that motherly and like parental thing about people.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting thing.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And if you're single, that's a boundary that many congregants and ministers also need to talk about.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And so boundaries for me are very, very important.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's knowing your own inner self and it's knowing exactly like what you can handle and what you can't.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: And I think that that is, that's just very important in ministry at all.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: And that's hard.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: You don't wanna disappoint people, but you also want to take care of yourself and you also don't want to have a situation where you are being taken advantage of because the church is really good at it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: They it is, it's really good at it.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Going back to something you said earlier, I've seen issues arise when the default assumption of congregation members and people in leadership, not the pastor per se, but se for example, people on session of a Presbyterian congregation making the assumption that, oh, if we don't do this or if we don't get to it, it's fine because the pastor will do it, or the pastor will figure it out.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: And that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And so just to remind folks also that the churches are shepherded by a pastor, but the pastor is not the church.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: The pastor is a part of the church, but the pastor is not the sole defining feature of a congregation, which is also hard for congregations to remember sometimes too, because they get so attached to a pastor.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So again, praying that everyone's able to navigate healthy boundaries, setting good, healthy expectations in this thing that we call ministry, because ministry itself is not easy, let alone trying to do it together and in relationship.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: So yeah.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And, and one more thing, and this might be controversial and the church might need to hear this, but everyone does not need to be a friend.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: We all in this thing we call ministry don't necessarily need to be a friend, or we don't necessarily need to be a friend at a certain Pacific time.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Or there's also, you know, there's also the mentality of the church.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Like the one thing I cannot take sometimes is like icebreakers or things like that.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I've never really liked that.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: And we've kind of talked about this on the podcast, right?
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Because in some cases those things create an environment to where you feel as though you have to be besties, with everybody that you're working with.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: And for me, that's not something that I think is often beneficial.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: I think we should all have mutual respect.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I think we should all have a mutuality within each other to know whether or not if someone needs space or to trust one another enough to know that like if someone's triggered or if someone is going through some something that we make and take something on and and ha and let that person have some space.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And our entities can do that and our churches can do that, and our organizations can do that and have that understanding.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: But I do think at times we go a little too far and thinking that everybody just wants to be in this like kumbaya moment when in reality that for me is that can me, it can also be very problematic if we're getting too close to each other in a professional setting.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: So much so that everybody wants to hear about somebody's trauma, everybody wants to, to kind of make somebody relive things that they don't wanna relive and, and get deeper within like those types of things.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I think that that is something in a church with whether in you're in leadership or an organization, I think those things can get in some ways problematic because they also blur the line.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: They blur the line of, if people can't take that in, people don't know how to handle a lot of information.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: The church is not, the church most of the time is not equipped to deal with a lot of those things.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: And, uh, and therapy is, and so for us to also think about how we cultivate community within the church, yes, we want to trust each other, but people have boundaries.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: And the church should have a boundary to where we have our limits.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: We have a boundary to how far we can go until we say, you know, I can't handle that and here's somewhere you can go if that is something you need.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I think that's important too, because not everybody needs to be friends.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Not everybody needs to have close relationships within the church or how we're working together because that in and of itself can be damaging as well.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: And I may get pushback from that, but I will stand by it because I've seen it happen and it's not, it's just not a good boundary to cross, I think.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Well, folks, we hope that you all are working to navigate boundaries respectfully and intentionally.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: And if you have stories about how you tried to set those boundaries and, and those boundaries were, for lack of a better word, well executed and you've considered them a success, write in and let us know at Faith podcast P c u s a.org
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Or at a matter of faith podcast.com.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith a Presby podcast by a very special guest who is doing very, very important work.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Joining us is Miles Markham, the development manager at Trans Lifeline Miles, welcome to the podcast.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: It's, it's great to be here again, right?
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: I did this once before for
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I think, so different
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Topic exploration.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Were you on just talk live with Lee?
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: That might have been,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: You're on Talk Live.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: That's what it was.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Because you know, I do a a variety of things, but it's really good to see you.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: It's been a while and we love Miles, Miles is a, is a colleague in this thing we do in life to help people.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: So it's really good to see you.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It really, really is.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, and we do have a question for you.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: And the question reads, we increasingly hear about issues of mental health and suicide regarding the general public, but not as much for transgender individuals.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: What resources are available to support members of the transgender community regarding mental health and suicide?
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: How can we better connect these issues to fate?
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: What would you say?
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Well, Lee, I I see this question as three questions, and so I think I'm gonna do my best to answer all of them.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: , and maybe we just start with the first piece of it, and maybe that wasn't even written as a question, but a reflection, right?
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: This, um, disparity between, uh, the increase in information we have about mental health and suicidality, um, but the ways in which that same data, that same information, is not being reflected as it pertains to trans communities.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: So if I can, I would like to respond to that piece first.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: And, and that is, I, I guess first to say that is a correct assessment in as far as, uh, research data and information about mental health and, uh, suicidality a across the board, there is not enough information about trans communities, period, not just in this area, but I think broadly speaking, um, in society.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: However, I did wanna mention that there are groups like the American Academy of Pediatrics, um, organizations like the Trevor Project and projects like, uh, the US Transgender Survey, which was first conducted in 2015 and was conducted again last year.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: And between those three groups, there actually is a growing body of research on mental health, on suicidality and on wellness as it pertains to transgender people.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: That being said, a lot of that data is pretty sobering.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Uh, I think sadly, it, it tends to demonstrate that, uh, about 40% of transgender people in the United States have had a suicide attempt, uh, and have astronomically higher rates of suicidal ideation, um, than our cisgender counterparts.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: So that I think, is information that is like difficult to trend.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Uh, it's information that requires certain sensitivities to talk about, and I think that that puts us in a position where that info is not readily accessible, um, just between those, those two factors.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Um, that being said, while I have you two here, I I am interested in parina that out a little bit more because I wanna talk about why, I wanna talk about, not just why that information is difficult, uh, to make it to the mainstream or to the general public, but why the high rates themselves.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: So if you'll humor me, I, I did want to offer a, uh, reflection sort of on the why behind Yeah.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Those kinds of numbers.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: Humor, uh,.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah,.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: And, and I'll say, so, just so that it is clear for folks who are listening to this podcast, I am a transgender person.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: I do work for Trans Lifeline, and I'll talk a little bit more about what our organization does specifically, but that is the context I am speaking from.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: So first off, I wanna say that I think it is easy for many people, uh, even transgender people themselves to assume, um, that these numbers, specifically the, the 40% number that is a huge part of a, and like a group as a whole to have attempted suicide, um, that that exists.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: People might think because there's something pathological about being transgender itself, and this is not for no reason, uh, for decades, thanks to western psychology and the American healthcare industrial complex, um, being transgender was, was understood and taught as a mental illness.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Uh, the lingering effects of that continue into the present.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: For example, uh, when I share with people that I am transgender, it's not uncommon for well-meaning individuals to respond with sympathy or pity, or for them to imagine that my life must have been or, or might continue to be extremely difficult simply because I am trans.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Um, to this end, I, I try to find some diplomatic way of letting them know that it's not the being trans that is the difficulty.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: It is having to navigate a world that taught them the reaction to transness that they're having in that moment.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: So that thing, I guess I wanna note off the top, and to kind of move from there.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: If, if I'm saying that like, transness is not the problem, then I want to know what is, what is causing this mental health crisis?
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: And I, I would say that the problem is that we live in a world, uh, where being cisgender, um, and conforming to gender expectations and norms is demanded in both implicit and explicit ways.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: I I think maybe to even back it up, um, I, I think this is true for transness, but it's also true for the topic of suicidality, period.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And that is, people often treat it as a moral failing.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Something is wrong with this person for being in a place of despair.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Um, and if, if not a moral failing, then it is merely an individual's problem.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: And so what I have learned just from my own experience and from, uh, the hotline that Trans Lifeline operates, is that neither of these things are true.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: Um, that despair does not happen in a vacuum.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: And even though mental health, of course, is very complex, that, that no person finds themselves in a situation where they do not want to live anymore out outside of like the social conditions that are, are creating, you know, that, that sentence.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: And so I think specifically for trans people, um, one thing that I often talk about trans lifeline shares with others is that trans people are discriminated against across the board when it comes to healthcare, when it comes to law enforcement, how we're treated by, by the police, how we're treated by the government, how we're treated by the i r s.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Discrimination is seen and unfolds in the context of schools, both K through 12 as well as higher learning institutions.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: It happens in sports and in recreational activities.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: It happens of course, in places of worship, it happens in gyms and locker rooms, public restrooms, it happens in community centers, it happens as it pertains to housing, as it pertains to jobs, um, and getting work, gainful employment, full-time employment.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: It happens, uh, across our representation in television and film.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: And it happens even on social media.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: You know, space that traditionally has championed freedom of speech is a consistent source of, uh, harassment, uh, for transgender people.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: And that is not just from other individual users of social media, but the platforms themselves regularly flag our profiles and mark them as inappropriate or, uh, content that, um, violates, excuse me, quote unquote violates, uh, their community standards and agreements.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: And so, uh, these are not all, um, but they're just some of the large ways in which society creates a situation of, of despair for transgender people.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: And this, of course, is compounded, um, when we start talking about, uh, race, when we start talking about disability, uh, when we start talking even about the gender differences within the trans experience.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: And, and what I mean specifically about that is how transgender women and trans-feminine people, uh, disproportionately deal with, uh, issues pertaining to all these different areas in society where we experience discrimination.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: So yeah, the, those are some of the structural ways that lead to a mental health crisis, right?
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Like that Yeah.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: Is something, um, that puts a person in a position where living becomes quite unbearable.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Um, so that, I guess that's, that was a big point I wanted to make was we, we find ourselves in this situation not as a moral failing, not as a personal problem, but as a, as a social structural systemic issue.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: And it, and it also with that, there's like this internalized ness of it too, in, in, in ways that can manifest in a lot of different ways when society is continually telling you that you are less than you don't belong, or, or all these things coming at you, and then you internalize that, which means in some way, like that re that, that internalized rejection of your own self too, it happens as well.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: So there's, so I also think there's that part of it in some ways too.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: And, and then when you said like, it's trans women or trans fem people who also experience the most oppression because of these systems, which means that even when folk may make be on a transition journey that are finding themselves even like toxic masculinity, and all of these things are then even expounded, like you were saying, with, because of how we see women in our, in our societies and how we see anything that isn't toxic masculine, like performing, if that makes sense, but Right.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: So I bleak, right?
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: Uh, uh, it, it's stark data.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: But again, um, I think having that information, understanding the way that, you know, we, we are moving and breathing and living in a world that is, is creating these conditions is a huge part of how we generate some of, some of the solution.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: And so the second part of your question, you know, was about resources.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: And so I want, I wanna talk about two different types of resources.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Resources for folks who are listening, who are the friends, family, coworkers, and ministry leaders.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Um, and then I wanna talk about resources specifically for trans folks ourselves.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: What I wanna say to the friends, family, coworkers, ministry leader types of people is that all of that research that I mentioned previously does indicate that one of the most critical, significant, both preventative and like interventions, you know, that can happen for trans folks in the context of mental health and wellbeing, is social support.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Which sounds so simple, but it's true.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: The, the most simple thing is the truest thing.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And that looks different depending on what the trans person in your life is asking for or seeking.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: But for youth specifically, the research demonstrates that suicidal ideation is dramatically reduced if there is first parental support, second additional adult support and acceptance, and third peer support.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: And so to the extent that you can reflect that in your own life toward transgender people, or do some research like in your local area about the peer-based support groups that exist, and if you don't have a local one being able to know what's available online, just the, that information like on hand makes a day and night difference.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: So that's huge.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: As far as resources for family, friends, community members, being able to offer full affirmation, full acceptance, um, and enthusiasm in those things, I, I think is, is really key.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: And then the second part of that is timely and available access to health, healthcare.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Um, a lot of people when they hear about transgender healthcare, they immediately think about surgical intervention.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: They immediately think about hormonal, you know, intervention.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: But healthcare is so much bigger than that.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: And I will say it has changed my life to have a primary care physician who specializes in, uh, gender affirming healthcare.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: And through telehealth, this is now possible for every person across the US And something that I highly encourage family members to become familiar with, because it, it changes things to have a medical professional who works with other patients who are transgender, non-conforming, non-binary, uh, but also it makes themselves available.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Oftentimes, these are the types of healthcare professionals who believe highly in patient advocacy, both on behalf of their patients, but also, um, provide education for the patients themselves and how to do this on their own.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: And so that is huge, being able to have that sort of person as a part of your care network.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: And I cannot encourage, um, more folks to have a better understanding of, of what's available in their local area.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Um, whether you currently know somebody who is transgender or not, just preemptively having that information, I think, uh, is a really wonderful way to show up for trans communities.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: The second part was resources for trans people ourselves.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: The first thing I'm going to mention, of course, is Trans Lifeline.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Um, we, uh, offer all sorts of trans related resources as it pertains to like, what is accessible to you in your local area, what exists at the national level.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: If you call our hotline, it doesn't have to be exclusively in the instance of crisis.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Uh, we believe in preventing crisis.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: And so being able to have a conversation partner who is trans themselves and can sort of talk through the, the nuances of lived experience, gender, gender identity, family love, connection, all of those things are a, a way of experiencing support so that you don't end up, uh, you know, in, in a situation of crisis.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Um, so the organization provides both that emotional direct support, but also financial direct support.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: So my favorite thing about what Trans Lifeline does is our micro grants program, and that is we offer low barrier small grants to transgender people to be able to update identity documents with correct names, gender markers.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: We also support a variety of, uh, gender affirming healthcare initiatives.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: Uh, we, uh, have a significant program dedicated to supporting trans folks who are incarcerated.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: And all that information, I'm sure will be in the show notes, you know, through the website.
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: But yeah, we have, we have the hotline, um, but then we also have, you know, staff sort of spread out across the United States who are really passionate about this work and making sure that the community has what they need to be.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: Well, the second set of resources I'll mention is specifically for transgender and non-binary people of faith.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: I wanna plug two specific ministries, uh, that offer peer-based support.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: One is called Transmission Ministry Collective, and the other is called Q Christian Fellowship.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Both of these are online communities.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Uh, the former is for, uh, and by transgender and gender nonconforming individuals.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: And the latter is for the whole L G B LGBTQ I A plus community.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: Um, and they do have a significant amount of trans participation.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: And the third, uh, set of resources I want to present are, um, like mental health proper, uh, and that is two directories that both offer free or extremely subsidized options for therapy, counseling and coaching.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: Um, the first one is called Pride Counseling, and the second one is called the National and Trans Therapist of Color Network.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: So that, of course, is specifically for black, indigenous and people of color who are and trans.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: But again, both and trans therapists of Color network and Pride Counseling offer free or subsidized options for therapy and for counseling.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: So yes, that is my long response to the resource question.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: .
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: We'll be sure to have all of those in the show notes.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: And something that I was reading about Trans Lifeline that I was wondering if it, we can talk about just a little bit more, I'm trying to find the exact language.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: You had mentioned, the historic terrible interactions that members of the transgender community have with police, with police, and that therefore part of the sort of, I guess, process or protocol for Trans Lifeline is that there's, is it non-police intervention?
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Is that the correct word that I'm, that I'm looking for?
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: And which I'm assuming is because of those historic terrible interactions with police, there are other ways that Trans Lifeline seeks to intervene that do not always involve the police.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: Right, right.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: So Trans Lifeline, uh, since it's founding in 2014, has functioned as a part of the broader abolitionist movement, meaning, um, that we envision a world that is free of police and prisons.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: And so a part of, uh, living out those kinds of principles is that there are a few different things that our hotline, um, is committed to never doing.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: One is geolocating.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: In as much as we understand about that kind of technology, it generally puts people in a position where they are being surveilled.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: And if you are a part, part of a different communities of color, if you're a part of a trans, if you're part of trans, you know, or frankly, all like and trans communities, there's a higher degree in which that is unfolding, uh, for you because of the way like society has been taught, um, to distrust and not believe and to question who we are and what we're doing.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: So, um, that's a part of our ethos is not to track where people are or where they're coming from.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: If they choose to disclose that information in the call, um, that is up to them.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: But the second piece of that is we will never non consensually call 9 1 1, uh, callers will have to explicitly request that they, that an operator called for them.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: And even in that, the operators are trained to still talk somebody through what a 9 1 1 intervention would mean.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Because first responders in these situations, often, if not always, are police.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: And even if police are trained, they have a specialization, uh, in mental health response, they are still also trained through a, a system that is inherently punitive, that is inherently violent, that is inherently non-consensual.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: And so people end up in a situation where even at the, at best they're not arrested, but they are non consensually hospitalized and non-consensual hospitalization, uh, has terrible impacts on most people, but specifically trans people who, as we've talked about already, are, well, we're pathologized just by virtue of being trans.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: And so what happens, you know, in the hospital thereafter, is a really sort of roulette situation, and it leads almost always to more harm.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: And I think sort of like the last piece I'll, I'll mention here is that there is research being conducted currently, uh, on the impact of non-consensual police and hospital intervention for around mental health, around suicide ideation, around suicide rhetoric, you know, from hotline callers.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: And I can say, just based on the limited data that currently exists on this topic, it's not good.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: It almost always leads to more harm and, um, it doesn't have to be this way.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: And so that's another big part of Trans Lifelines portfolio, is working with other, um, crisis and mental health hotlines to, um, take again, the Geolocating and the 9 1 1 calling the non-consensual police and healthcare, uh, intervention out of the, uh, crisis ecosystem.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: So yeah, those are, those are all things that are really central, you know, to the, to the work that Trans Lifeline does.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: This being, you know, a matter of faith, we, we, well, we know the harm that the church has done to the community, to the trans community, and yet there is some of us in the faith realm who, who want to be in solidarity and who want to work for, um, inclusion and affirming spaces and, and all these types of things for our trans siblings.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: And so how would you say this is connected to faith, or what, what should communities of Faith be doing in order to be, to walk with and be in solidarity, both with, I would say with our trans siblings, but also we don't, we don't hardly ever talk about suicide in the church.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: And if we do, it is very, it's awful and it's traumatizing, and it's also, frankly, to me, it's gross and how in many the ways in which we talk about it.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder like, how are we to frame this?
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: If we are people of faith, how are we to kind of frame this in a way that that does set us in a good foundation to, to do this work?
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Because I always think like if we say we're people of faith, then our theological foundation needs to be pretty solid and pretty like life giving for us to, to be able to do this work.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: So I wonder what you might say to that.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Um, not dissimilar from how I answered these previous questions.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: I think there are three frames that we can talk about that through.
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: Um, one is the frame of, uh, constructive or systematic theology.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: The second is through the frame of pastoral care in education ministries.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: And then the third, um, is sort of like a frame of both and what liberation theologians would call Praxis.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: So I'm gonna talk about all three, the first, the constructive and the systematic, uh, theology of it all.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: I wanna plug, uh, Justin, uh, Sabia Tanis who's been writing about transgender persons and our theologies for decades.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Um, then there are others like Chris Page, m Barclay, Christina Beardsley, Laura Beth Buiter, Austin Harkey, Aaron Swenson, Lewis Mitchell, all people who are trans and gendered on conforming themselves trans or, and or gender nonconforming and writing, you know, about transgender theology.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: You know, in its sort of formal sense, these are all people I think individuals listening to this podcast should become familiar with.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Um, and also not trans, but.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: Patrick Chang is another theologian who has written extensively about theologies, um, and around topics that pertain to faith, gender, sexuality that I think are really comprehensive, that are theologically rigorous, um, but still accessible and still helpful.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: And so those are all people, and it's all writing within the constructive or systematic theology sort of frame that I think could be a wonderful guide, uh, for anybody listening.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Uh, as far as pastoral care and education ministries go, I, I think this is important to think about because it's not just how Christian leaders who are cisgender will engage and relate to transgender people, um, but how transgender Christian leaders ourselves are already guiding these principles and practices.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: I, I think the main thing I wanted to note here is that, uh, transgender people on the whole tend to skew toward being, uh, spiritual if not religious, and actively a part of institutional forms of religion, denominations and so forth.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: That could be an entire other podcast for another day.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: But I think what I wanna say here around pastoral care and education is that we've been taking care of ourselves for a long time.
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: And at first that was out of necessity because nobody else was doing it.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: And then it became, um, a choice because we're the most equipped, we are the best positioned, uh, to be able, um, to offer care and of course then to write about it and to share, um, you know, those kinds of, uh, practices and, and ways of being in community with others.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I, I think what's important, you know, in terms of like solidarity and allyship there is to, you know, whoever you are, a ministry leader, a seminary administrator, faculty, any other influential person in the church is identify, support and uplift the trans and gender nonconforming folks already in your midst.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: Um, the ones who've always been there, and also new ones that are to come.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: I think that's all I wanna say about that one.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: And then lastly, the like praxis piece of all this, uh, kind of bringing together that constructive theology and pastoral care.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: And I, I would, I would prioritize this, and I think this is sort of getting up the, that main question that you asked, like, what can be done?
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: I'm actually not even sure how I want to respond to this.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: Um, I think what I wanna say is maybe first like what not to do.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: And that is like, not to just like, tell me about what your policies are.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: Don't tell me about your overtures.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: Don't tell me about like what you wrote down on a piece of paper at a meeting.
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: And by a meeting, I mean the three meetings or four meetings or the five meetings or assemblies that you had about it, that actually means very little to me.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: Um, I wanna know, what are the practices that accompany those policies?
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: How are you actually living as a result, you know, of, of those statements that you have made?
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: And I wanna know, yeah, how you're doing outreach.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: How do you hire people?
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Tell me how you compensate people for their labor.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: Tell me about how you think through and address all of these material inequities that transgender people experience.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: It also makes me think of, um, recent set of stories that have been trending, um, and give a shout out to her as well.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: Presbyterian minister and chaplain.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: Reverend Remington Johnson is in Austin, Texas, and on top of her pastoral responsibilities as a healthcare chaplain, she's been at the Texas Capitol, she's meeting with lawmakers, she's talking with parents and families.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: She is testifying before Congress and altogether, um, doing the most to protect the trans kids and their families who are actively under fire and attack in Texas.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: Their rights actively being eroded and their quality of life being stripped from them.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: And I want to know, where's the rest of the mission presbytery in that fight?
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: I want to know where's the rest of the P C U S A?
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: What's happening in Texas is also happening in Florida, in Georgia, in Tennessee, in Oklahoma, and in Arkansas.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: And when I'm watching this unfold, I see the U C C showing up in really public ways.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: I see the c c showing up in really public ways.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: I see reformed Jewish synagogues showing up in really public ways.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: So where's the p The u s a I see statements again, I, on on paper, I understand where the church is, but in real life on the ground.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Where, where is, where is the church, um, and what's happening, you know, right now it's January 19th, over 150 anti-trans bills have already been introduced in 2023.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: And the church, I think has a lot of influence.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: So has a lot of power, frankly, and a lot of ability, uh, to do something about this and do something about it.
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: Right now, I want, I wanna see it, I believe in our creativity.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: I believe in the, like, values of justice that undergird, you know, P C U S a faith.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: So I'm excited to see what the church is gonna do about it, uh, because it, it, it is positioned to really, uh, put some skin in the game.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: So, I don't know, I'll leave that to y'all
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: To
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Respond to.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: It, it is, you know, it, it is often that procedure and process policy, it's like a game, you know, and a game that people like to play for me sometimes to not necessarily get into the actual issues.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: And sometimes it's to put on a face and I might get in trouble for it, but I'll tell it to anybody I've met with before.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: And I think it is the fact that we kind of have our, well, I don't need to say that.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna, we kind of, we just have our things misplaced and we are too full of ourselves and we take ourselves way too seriously.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: And I think that because of all that, we literally are missing the mark on a lot of different things and we're placing a lot of energy on things that do not matter.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: And I don't think in reality how we pivot and how we really do things that make a difference at some point.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: You know, that's why, that's why the church is decreasing.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: We do.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: We, we spend energy on things that don't matter.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: And so I do, I do think, like what you're saying and where are we, because other members of churches are there, other denominations are there.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: And we have this thing that we, we say we are affirming and we say we are all these things, but in reality, even the members don't even know half of our policies.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: And at the same time, we don't really enact on them.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: And so I do think that it is important to just kind of face the reality that it's like, what are we doing?
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: What are we really doing?
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: And what does it look like?
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: And really the optics are not good.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: The optics, even if you just look at optics, it's not good.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: So I do think, yeah, calling it like that.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: And what else can we, can we say about it?
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate the charge that you've given us, miles, because it's so easy to think that we've done enough when we've got the thoughts and prayers and the statements, but thoughts, prayers and statements, or being with someone in spirit, that's all great, but that's not, that alone is not going to save lives, actions will, and you've reminded us of that with very concrete examples of what that looks like.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: .
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: And I hope that the folks listening to this will take that to heart.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: We take that into our denomination and into our congregations, into our own lives and in the interactions we have with the people around us.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Cuz also, as you reminded us, even if we're not members of the transgender community, educating ourselves and being a support is so important.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: And that's something very practical at a very localized level that we can do too.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: So at the same time, we're trying to push for, we should be trying to push for things it very publicly.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: There are also, there's also a lot of that individual work that needs to be done as well.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: And we'll be sure to have links to everything that you've mentioned in the show notes.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: I tried to take really good notes of all the people you mentioned as well.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: So hopefully we can, uh, capture all of that so people could reference that.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: But we're super grateful for you to, you, for coming on the podcast and for the work that you're doing at Trans Lifeline.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: And that Trans Lifeline exists as a model for, I don't even know how to describe it, just, just intentionality, if that makes sense.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Uh, in terms of the way that the, of the services it provides and the ways it tries to, to be with people, especially in times of crisis and also in other aspects of their lives as well.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: Thanks for letting me come on here and, you know, share my fire
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: ,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: We love your fire.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: And, and I would also say too, before we close, and this is, goes out to the community, because I think we could be doing more for our trans siblings and our gender non-conforming and non-binary siblings too, because there is, in some ways, there is discrimination even within the community.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: And I think we can be doing more too.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I just want to say that if you are a person and you're a person who as a white person and a person of privilege, there's a lot of things you can check yourself on too.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: And so it's not just this oppression infiltrates everything.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: So I just wanted to say that too.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: But Miles, it is really good to see you, and we are so grateful for you.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: And we, we love you and we are so glad that you're here with us today.
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: I, I, I miss getting to collaborate more regularly with both of you, Simon and Lee.
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: And so anytime you want to hear, uh, hot Takes or more rants,, reach out and lemme know.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we, we can always love Hot Takes, but thanks again.
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Have a good one.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of A Matter of Faith.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: We are brought to you by Unbound and the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: And thanks to Miles Markham for being with us from Trans Lifeline.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: We love you Miles, and thank you for all the, the work that you're doing and inviting us and challenging us to get involved into the work as well for our trans siblings.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: And so we hope that y'all will subscribe wherever you get your podcast, and we hope you leave us a review.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: We love to hear from you.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: And if you have any questions for us, send them to fates podcast@peaceusa.org, or you can send them on our website at a matter of fate podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.