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117. Let Us Prey Review Part 2 · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:04
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
0:10
I found my freedom. Of.
0:12
You I found a. Joy, I can't lose.
0:19
Thank God it's true. You wrapped.
0:21
Your arms around me. And heaven broke through from
0:26
the moment she found me. I found my freedom in you.
0:32
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
0:36
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
0:40
Now here are your hosts, James Seyffert and Brett Martin.
0:47
Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast.
0:49
Thank you for being back with us today.
0:52
We're going through our review of let us Pray and we're just
0:57
going to, you know, just start out with just a couple of quick
0:59
announcements. We've got Israel coming up March
1:03
of 2025. We've got people that are over
1:07
there in Israel right now. They're going to tell us.
1:09
They they tell us that, you know, the estimates are that by
1:12
the time our trip rolls around, it'll be safe to travel in
1:17
Israel and we're going to stay on top of that.
1:20
But we are going back. I cannot wait to.
1:23
Get back So excited. Man, I'm just chomping at the
1:27
bit. I still post stuff about it
1:30
every day because I want to go. And then of course we've got new
1:34
things coming up. We've got new serieses that
1:38
we're going to talk about here. We've got a lot of great things
1:41
planned for the podcast coming up in the next few weeks.
1:46
I'm really excited about it. Me and James have been working
1:48
for months on the new schedule for this year and we're looking
1:53
forward to it. We've got a lot of good
1:55
interviews coming up and I just can't wait to get started, yeah.
2:00
I'll say one thing on that and then we'll get started.
2:02
John did a lot of the planning and prepping.
2:05
I just sort of came on and talked now that he's left, I'm
2:08
doing a lot of that mean. I mean me and you both are.
2:11
I didn't realize how much work it took into actually planning
2:15
out a schedule line up interviews.
2:17
I mean it's just this is a lot of work and so I hope you guys
2:21
enjoy what we've got coming up in the next couple of weeks and
2:24
I know what's going to be good. I'm I'm enjoying it as we're
2:26
planning it and so yeah. I can't wait to have John back
2:32
as a special guest. Right, right.
2:34
We've got to we got to get on that.
2:36
We got to, yeah, line him up. We will.
2:39
We will. So what we're talking about with
2:41
the format we're using when it comes to this review, as you can
2:47
see from our last episode, was the good, the bad and the ugly.
2:51
The bad was the things that we disagreed with and we addressed
2:56
that last episode. The good or, you know, James
3:00
came at it from the viewpoint of the good things that we do say
3:04
are good things that were mentioned.
3:06
And then I'm hitting it from the perspective of good things as in
3:11
statements that I agreed with. And we're halfway through that.
3:15
We're going to finish that up. And then this episode we will
3:18
get into the ugly. So rolling right into the things
3:22
that I agreed with was the statement that a lot of IFB
3:28
churches worship Jack Hiles. That was something that was
3:33
mentioned. And you know, while I do want
3:37
don't want a broad butt brush and say every IFB church out
3:42
there worships Jack Hiles. At the same time, I do want to
3:46
say there are a lot of Jack Hiles worshipping IFB churches
3:53
out there that you know, that put the man up on this pedestal.
4:00
I've seen pastors pray to Jack Hiles.
4:04
There are men that still venerate him and and lift him up
4:09
and everything that come again out against Jack Hiles was was a
4:15
lie and all this bad stuff. He never did anything wrong, you
4:21
know, And that's just not the case.
4:23
And so I did agree with the house worship that that was
4:30
going on. Did you did you experience any
4:32
of that house worship while you were in the IFB, James?
4:35
So in my church growing up, I did not hear the name Jack House
4:41
until I was a senior in high school.
4:44
Now my mom said that Jack House came to my church when I was a
4:49
kid and she knew about him. But when we changed over
4:54
leaderships when I was, you know, 5-6 years old, the style
4:58
of the church changed. We went more of like uppity
5:02
Country Club style Baptist Independent Baptist Church, not
5:06
camp meeting Independent Baptist Church.
5:09
So Jack Houses name went by the wayside.
5:12
We were more I guess you would say like a Bob Jones temple, you
5:15
know a lot of Robertson was part of it.
5:18
So Jack House was not mentioned until, like I said my senior
5:21
year. But then I went to a house,
5:24
Anderson Church plant that down at Eric Pacey's church, which
5:29
came out of Jack House. So that was where I got my most
5:33
experience out of Jack House. But then even when I went to my
5:36
first ministry, it was like, hey, we're not we don't mention
5:39
names like that. Like we just people wouldn't
5:42
know who they are. So we didn't.
5:43
So, so for me, it wasn't a big, big thing in my church.
5:49
OK, Eric made this statement. He said that, you know, the King
5:55
James Version, you know, it's hard to understand.
5:58
It reads like Shakespeare. And so a lot of IFP pastors use
6:05
that as an, you know, an opportunity to manipulate the
6:10
text and manipulate people. And I wholeheartedly agree, Eric
6:17
making that statement. I wholeheartedly agree 100% with
6:22
that statement that people use the King James Bible.
6:25
They use the archaic old language to try to manipulate.
6:31
They bring things, you know, out of context and try to make the
6:36
Bible say what they wanted to say.
6:39
And that can lead to abuse because you're going against a
6:44
lot of times pastors will get on there.
6:48
You know, the man of God will get on this.
6:50
You know his his pet peeve. He'll bring a verse out of
6:54
context. He'll manipulate Scripture.
6:57
Scripture is always gonna stand, you know, against abuse and
7:03
using the Bible to justify abuse and to justify this power grab
7:12
that so many pastors have. And that, you know, these
7:16
pastors that think that they're above, you know, you know, above
7:20
falling and above, you know, answering to anybody And you
7:25
know they are the dictator of the church.
7:28
And all of that is justified through manipulation of the
7:33
text. And so IA 100% agree with that
7:36
statement that Eric made. So another thing that they
7:39
talked about was infant corporal punishment.
7:43
I know if you were to listen to the documentary and hear that,
7:48
how weird and awful that that would sound, but I do have to
7:53
say that it is a real thing. I heard this growing up.
7:58
It was preached and the statement that was told was, you
8:02
know, break the child's will, not the child's spirit.
8:05
And I didn't know I'd heard my pastor say that.
8:08
But I didn't know until I grew up and and got to House Anderson
8:12
and even afterward that that was like a a Bill Gothard teaching.
8:16
I didn't even know who Gothard was until I was an adult.
8:20
But as as as awful as that sounds, that is a real thing
8:25
that I've heard and experienced and and heard preached.
8:29
And so that's all I have, James. As far as stuff that was said
8:36
that that, you know, I agreed with was, you know, not, they're
8:40
not good things, but there are real things.
8:43
If and if you wanted to hit, you know, mention or comment on any
8:48
of those, you can. And then, if if so, and if not,
8:52
you can lead us into the ugly portion of our episode.
8:56
Yeah. So Brett, at at this point let's
8:59
go into what is the ugly side of what was done.
9:03
And this is the stuff that you know the documentary I think did
9:07
phenomenal on of just pointing out the abuse and the ugliness
9:12
of it. I want to start out by saying
9:16
that the seeing the the pictures of the 12 year olds, 14 year
9:23
olds, you know, my my oldest son is 10.
9:27
My daughter is going to be 12 in four years.
9:29
And to think that someone would abuse my daughter like that
9:32
infuriates me, makes me so mad. Because this is daughters that
9:38
have been abused and they're being covered up and no one has
9:43
been charged for it. And it's just, it's disgusting,
9:47
It's ugly abhor it. And again, I want to thank these
9:51
ladies for coming out and saying what they've said and presenting
9:54
their case. The the shunning of women.
9:58
The the one of the moms that was her daughter was abused and she
10:04
sort of came forward a little bit.
10:06
And then just this shunning from the pulpit, shunning in the
10:09
church, no one wanted to talk to her.
10:11
People were going the other way in the store.
10:14
It just was heartbreaking to see that and to hear that and to
10:17
think man this is this should never be done.
10:20
The church is the refuge. The church is the hope and the
10:22
help of of the society and they're being shunned was just
10:29
ugly and nasty. Yeah.
10:32
I've got. I've got tons more.
10:33
But Brett, I'm. Yeah, that was, that was Kathy.
10:36
Kathy was just shunned for, you know, coming out and saying
10:40
anything and the fact that she felt like after she said it and
10:44
she, you know, was sitting down with with Tammy Goddard and
10:49
listen to her talk and blame her and her just thinking why or why
10:55
did I say something? And then and then the way that
10:58
her mom, you know, reacted to that, punishing her and making
11:03
her paint the barn and then everybody just, you know,
11:06
talking, you know, you know, kind of shunning her even, you
11:11
know, fellow kids her age or just, you know, oh, it's your
11:15
fault our favorite assistant pastor had to leave.
11:18
And so it's just, it was it was really, really ugly and my heart
11:22
goes out to her for having to go through that.
11:25
Yeah, the the grooming and the cover up was ugly.
11:32
The sexual abuse and the cover up that was done.
11:35
I just again, I hate it. The the the the one girl who who
11:42
never really had a father figure can't remember her name and she
11:46
said she got her. I think it was Kathy who got in
11:48
the car and the youth pastor gave her a present.
11:52
She opened it up and it was the teddy bear that the other
11:56
friends had that she never had. And she just was like, oh, I I
12:01
finally got something like basically that my dad had gotten
12:04
me. And then all of a sudden that
12:06
turned into this sexual favors and there was something else in
12:10
the bag, some panties just. Sickening.
12:13
So disgusting to think. This is a pastor.
12:17
This is someone who handles the word of God.
12:19
This is someone who gets up and preaches and teaches the word of
12:22
God and is doing this to a little girl in his vehicle.
12:28
It's so sick. The groom like grooming it it
12:32
and it it just it's not only disgusting that.
12:36
How would you even think to do that in the same bag like this
12:40
one? Like praying on her
12:42
vulnerability and just, you know, this the definition of a
12:46
predator? Yeah.
12:48
And it's just oh, it's so. It's so sickening.
12:52
Yeah, and infuriating. Yeah.
12:54
One of the things also I wrote down was the abuse of power.
12:58
You know pastors are given a an extent of power like we we do
13:03
have a responsibility from God to shepherd the flock.
13:07
And when that power is abused, the way these people abuse this
13:11
power, it's disgusting. It's wrong.
13:13
It's ugly. And you know I just there is
13:18
something messed up in a person's mind to do the things
13:22
that we're done and continue on that.
13:26
And I and I hate it. I hate it for them.
13:30
The last thing I'll say, and I'll turn it over to you before
13:34
I have one other thing to say, but I'll let you say some
13:36
things, is the moving from one church to another and the
13:40
leadership knows and doesn't tell.
13:44
I'll give a practical illustration.
13:48
A couple of years ago in our county, actually, the county
13:52
beside where I was at pastor embezzled hundreds of thousands
13:58
of dollars. It was a Southern Baptist
14:00
church, very large church. He embezzled in a way that he
14:06
had his own non profit and the church was giving to his non
14:09
profit even though it was his. And then right before he left,
14:14
he cashed out the church's bank account because he was the
14:16
signer of the bank into his non profit, left the church with
14:20
like $1000 in the bank, sold the school for a dollar, all the
14:25
buildings and everything, signed them over to another
14:28
organization and then left, left the church like this.
14:33
Just horrible, horrible. OK.
14:36
He goes from North Carolina to Texas because it was a mega
14:41
church in Texas that wanted him. So what does the church do?
14:45
They called the former church the church that he took all this
14:47
money from and said, hey, can we get a reference to call the
14:51
chairman of the deacons? We need a reference in this guy
14:53
We see he left your church. What's what's going on there?
14:56
The chairman of the deacons told the other church everything that
14:58
happened. This is what the other church
15:01
said. We really like him and so we're
15:05
going to go and hire him anyways.
15:08
One, that's total idioticy that they would do that.
15:12
But two, they knew that he did wrong and they still continued.
15:16
The problem is, is we don't ever tell those wrong things.
15:20
And this is what happened here. The leadership knew that it was
15:23
wrong. John Jenkins knew that it was
15:25
wrong. Bruce Gotter knew that it was
15:26
wrong. Jack House knew that they were
15:28
going wrong, and yet they continued to move them from one
15:31
place to another. And didn't tell anyone, didn't
15:37
tell the leadership, didn't tell the police, didn't tell anyone.
15:40
And it's wrong on so many levels.
15:45
Just imagine you're a mother and you go to a pastor like John
15:50
Jenkins. And listen, I went to House
15:52
Anderson for 2 1/2 years. So I heard John Jenkins preach a
15:56
lot. He was right there in Michigan
15:58
close to House Anderson while I was there in college.
16:03
He was one of my favorite preachers that I would, that I
16:06
would listen to while I was there.
16:08
So I heard this man preach a lot.
16:11
And just imagine you go to a pastor like John Jenkins to tell
16:15
him about this abuse and then he says the words.
16:19
I'm not surprised. Oh my.
16:23
Because he had already knew about it.
16:26
And you look at the timeline, him saying something could have,
16:31
could have prevented this. And we've got to speak up, if
16:37
anything, just to get these, You know, we've got to hold these
16:40
passengers accountable so they know that it's not OK to sweep
16:45
things under the rug like this. You know, they're like we said
16:49
last episode, they're mandated reporters, they have to speak
16:53
about this. And you know, I've recently been
16:56
on Twitter and I have seen current IFB pastors come out on
17:02
Twitter like bad sermon clips, as as posted as a couple clips.
17:07
And these preachers are blaming the victims, blaming the
17:12
survivors and saying, Oh well, she didn't want to go out there.
17:16
She shouldn't have gotten on the plane and and flew out there.
17:19
She was 14 years old. Right.
17:23
How can you blame a 14 year old for something like that and then
17:30
this abuser? Especially when they're 14 and
17:34
that pastor's manipulating. For that 14 year old to be on
17:37
that plane. I need her here.
17:40
My wife's going into labor. She was a great asset while we
17:42
were there. You know, you feel value.
17:45
You feel like your daughter's got value and you're going to
17:47
help this person because this person was impactful in your
17:50
life. Why wouldn't you help them?
17:53
And then to know all what's going on, Yeah.
17:56
And then for Aaron, Aaron Willand one of the abusers.
18:00
You know, for him to only get two years and 10 months for one
18:03
of those offenses is is unreal. You know, he should have been
18:07
placed under the jail and in the last episode he did get up to 40
18:13
years for a a different infraction with the same victim.
18:19
And so, you know, hopefully he'll spend his money, he'll
18:22
spend almost 40 years behind bars is is kind of what I'm
18:26
hoping for. It's just awful, the things that
18:30
the things that he did. But man, one of the things that
18:33
surprised me so much, and maybe you can comment on this as well,
18:38
is when when the the Blind eye movement would have a meeting
18:42
and you have all these women here, they discuss their abuse
18:47
and they're all from the same church.
18:50
Yeah, it's just mind boggling how all, I mean, 'cause it shows
18:56
a systemic problem. It shows there's a bad issue
19:00
when you have all these women and they're in a group and
19:03
they're all from the same church.
19:07
It it just shows a really, really big problem.
19:12
Yeah, I. Agree as well and again that
19:14
does go back to if they portrayed the Jack House circle
19:19
correctly it would show that this this circle from this
19:24
organization not the necessarily he founded he he was the the
19:29
flagship pastor and from there that stemmed this epidemic of
19:35
abuse cover up abuse of power from there.
19:40
Exactly. The reason why you can trace all
19:43
of these back to Jack Howells because that's where it it it
19:46
came from. Yeah, in that sense, you.
19:48
Can do that without bra brushing.
19:50
Yeah. And this is the segue's perfect,
19:53
Brett. I'm glad you said that because
19:55
they interviewed Jamie Howells, David Howells daughter, which
20:00
would have been Jack House's granddaughter.
20:02
Now I don't know if they didn't go into her story on purpose,
20:06
maybe they're going to go in the next series.
20:09
If they do a let it pray to let us pray to a second edition of
20:14
this. Maybe they'll go with her story
20:16
and go deeper. But this is a first hand account
20:18
of the granddaughter of Jack House, David House's daughter,
20:22
and she mentioned the the the child that was abused and I
20:27
believe killed. And her story is so powerful,
20:32
and I don't know if maybe she didn't disclose as much because
20:35
she didn't feel like she could, or maybe they're doing a second
20:38
part or or maybe there was just some other things they couldn't
20:41
talk about. But I really wish they would
20:44
have nailed in deep in her story and went in and continued her.
20:51
If you're going to put the narrative around Jack House like
20:53
this, why would you not use his granddaughter?
20:56
Like in my mind I'm like, this is this is huge.
21:00
Why are you not going with that? Why are you not letting her tell
21:04
her story like the way she could and give these details behind
21:08
the scenes that she knew? And Brett, I think you've got
21:11
some some first hand experience as well with David House, 'cause
21:14
you were there during some of that period And so share sort of
21:17
what you experienced. And then I want to share just
21:20
two things that I felt that sort of fell flat with the
21:23
documentary. We when I was at House Anderson
21:27
College which was 99, 2002, 1001, we what we knew we didn't
21:34
know much about David House. What we knew is that he was an
21:37
assistant pastor. We knew that there.
21:40
We were told that he had an affair.
21:44
He messed up and that's why he had to go to a different church.
21:48
But it was all about you know forgiveness and restoration and
21:53
and he he could do no wrong and people blamed the the woman who
22:02
he had an affair with and I never knew names or whatnot but
22:06
David Hiles was venerated that David Hiles was lifted up.
22:10
There was never an ill will told about him.
22:15
We were told that man, he's he's getting back together and he's
22:19
getting back in a church and man, he's he's getting his life
22:22
right together. And yeah, he messed up.
22:24
But man, he's on the fast track to, you know, to pasture again
22:29
and basically that David Hiles could do no wrong.
22:34
And then the stuff that come out on this documentary, documentary
22:39
about David Hiles and all that he did just completely, oh,
22:46
shook me to my core and shocked me so much.
22:51
And I've listened to sermons that David House has preached
22:54
and I had no idea and and all, like I said, just another
22:58
example of all of these things being swept under the rug and
23:02
nobody's saying anything. And you know, so yeah, yeah,
23:07
when I was there, he was, he was lifted up.
23:09
He could do no wrong. But you know, he definitely,
23:13
hopefully one day will be held accountable for all the things
23:18
that that that he did, all the horrific things that he's being
23:23
accused of. And and I do hope one day he's
23:25
held accountable for it. One day, whether here or in in
23:32
glory, he'll be held accountable.
23:33
He'll be held accountable one way or the other.
23:35
Yeah. One way or another, he will be.
23:38
Anything else, Brett, on your part?
23:40
That was sort of the ugly side of it.
23:43
OK. So I want to share two things.
23:45
This has nothing to do with the victims.
23:48
This has nothing to do with the storyline.
23:52
Just from a watcher's perspective.
23:56
I want to share two things that I feel like the story could have
23:59
been told in a better light. The first one is this and this
24:03
is just sort of your your narrative's critique.
24:05
OK, your editor's choice critique from a movies maker
24:10
perspective. The first one is this.
24:13
Why were the women degraded to a position that they didn't even
24:18
have a proper seat to sit in? Brett, did you notice that, like
24:22
every time one of the ladies was talking, they were sitting on a
24:26
stool, They were on a milk crate in the corner of a building.
24:30
They were twisted backwards on a on a pure, they were.
24:36
There was there was no proper. I mean give the ladies.
24:39
I mean there was one where the two Rachel and her friend there
24:42
were were sitting on the floor beside two really comfortable
24:45
chairs. Like give these ladies the most
24:49
comfortable high back chair possible so they can tell their
24:52
story and dig the it's almost like they were And I don't know
24:55
if the narrative they just thought, you know let's let's
24:58
portray them as these victims in a weird position.
25:02
But for me, it's every time I saw them, like, put them in a
25:06
chair, like put them in in in this nice, comfy, spotlighted
25:11
area that was just my perspective of the first thing,
25:14
like treat them with respect. Since you've mentioned that I
25:17
did, I I do, I do, I do. I didn't notice that at some
25:21
point. Yeah, it's just like, you know,
25:23
they've already been abused enough.
25:25
Like let's give them some respect here.
25:27
Like let's show them that they are valuable.
25:29
Let's not portray the the narrative of they have no value.
25:33
Let's give them the most amazing value possible.
25:37
Put them in a gold plated chair for all I care.
25:39
I don't care. Like give them, give them
25:41
respect that they deserve. And then the last thing I love
25:45
the statement of the cardboard at Grace Baptist at will
25:50
tomorrow. Standing outside there, John, I
25:53
think it was John Jenkins was coming out in his car.
25:56
I love the statement that they had that the, the, the, the
25:59
ladies out there. I just felt like it fell flat
26:02
because they did it. They let their voices be heard,
26:05
but nothing came of it. You know, like I I was wanting
26:10
from from a viewer point of view like him to roll his window down
26:14
and get mad at him, maybe throw like a cup at him or something.
26:18
And that they were showing this as like he has no respect for
26:22
them. But he just sort of drove out
26:25
waved to him or didn't even wave.
26:26
Didn't acknowledge him, took a left or a right at the stop sign
26:30
and didn't just like there was nothing to the scene.
26:33
Like I'm glad they went and they did that but I didn't feel like
26:36
it added anything to the to the story.
26:38
In my mind that was one of those things that you know I think
26:42
they did the the whole the thing at at First Baptist at Hammond a
26:46
couple weeks ago and and I think that got some great momentum and
26:51
and and push back and they their voices were heard.
26:53
People at first Baptists were a part of that.
26:56
Like they said, we want to stand with these ladies because they
26:59
have been abused and we saw that.
27:01
And so I think that was valuable.
27:04
But I didn't feel like the from the production side of it.
27:08
I think it was valuable for those ladies that did that they
27:10
were allowed to have their voices heard in front of John
27:12
Jenkins in a small way. But the production value, I
27:16
didn't see a lot of value in it in my mind.
27:20
So that that was just two observations from a random
27:23
watcher, a random passer that has no skin in the game.
27:26
I'm just watching it and then and and.
27:29
And that's more of a more of a production producer type
27:34
critique, not anything on the women and their stories and.
27:38
Absolutely not what they. Went through just come up from a
27:40
production standpoint. But Eric, if you do it again,
27:44
give the ladies a chair. Let them sit in the chair to
27:47
tell their story. Come on man.
27:51
So. Well, Brett, man, I have enjoyed
27:53
this episode. It feels like it's taking us
27:54
like 15 hours recorded. We've both had interruptions on
27:58
both sides and I just appreciate you coming on me and I look
28:02
forward to this new year. Hey, next week we're going to be
28:05
talking about our series that we're going to be starting.
28:07
And so we'll be taking probably 10 or 12 weeks on the series,
28:11
probably take us up to Easter. It's going to be great.
28:14
And so be joining in next week to hear where we're going to be
28:18
going. We'll be dropping some graphics.
28:20
It's going to be great. And so Brett, anything else from
28:22
you? I think we're, I'm just excited
28:25
to moving forward. I'm ready to go.
28:27
Yeah, all until next time, guys. To God.
28:30
Not the pastor. Be the glory.
28:33
Found my new name. Found that good grace.
28:38
Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face.
28:42
When I found my beginning. That has no ending.
28:45
Found that second chance. Found my best friend.
28:51
Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness.
28:55
I've been singing ever since I found my freedom on.
29:05
Me Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast.
29:08
If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking,
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subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast
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platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for
29:18
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