Latest / Harvest After Sunday / Navigating AI: Cultural Matters
Transcript
- Harvest Media: Welcome to the Harvest After Sunday podcast. I'm Natalie and I'm your host and I'm here with Stefan, pastor of preaching and teaching, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. I think that what I love most about the opportunity for us to sit together is to not only explore deep theological topics and really air them out here, but pull them into relevant application for our church family. And so I want to talk about something today. that I think is extremely relevant right now and there's so many places we can go with it and it'll just be kind of I think a good dynamic conversation for us. I would love to talk about how we should think about how we are engaging with AI. Mm. AI, everybody's familiar with it. It's big topic right now. and I think there are some really obvious things that we should be cautioning ourselves on and really moving forward with care and discernment. And I think that I would love for you to kind of help bring in biblical principles for thinking about how we engage with things like this technology and tools, not falling into traps of fear and avoidance as a way to deal with things like this, but to faithfully engage with them in ways that are in line with what we believe and what honors God. Yeah. So that's kind of what I think would be really fun For us to dig into. Yeah. What are your initial thoughts? I think that's a great thought. And for those for those listening, I didn't know we were going to talk about. so I think that's I think that's great. I actually just had a conversation with another pastor a few days ago. We were out to lunch and he was asking questions about AI, especially because of the area of my doctoral research being in just what it means to be human. Yes. And AI being something that we interact with. Honestly, far more than we think. especially you think about social media and there's a lot of content that is created through AI that is made to look real. Yeah. And it really starts to erode your trust. Mm-hmm. being in higher education. For as long as I have been, the AI conversation was a very common discussion about what is the role of AI in research, in writing, in learning. Yeah. some people want to say, well, it's just a tool, so you should use the tool. other other people feel like there's some moral baggage attached to AI, and so you can't really use the tool until you sort out the moral issues and and the average person is inundated with information about AI, more and more AI tools coming out and seemingly less and less mental bandwidth to be able to say, Well, what do I really think about this? And then you end up you end up saying, Well just tell me what to think about it. or well, it's too hard to think about. So I'm either gonna avoid it or I'm just gonna go headlong into it. I think probably Both of those are problematic. Yeah. So yeah, I think it's I think it's a very worthwhile conversation. Yeah, I wanna draw our church family in. You know, I I hope that people aren't so tired of this topic or feel like they've already made up their mind that they don't want to continue to tune in and hear about some of the different situations and usages that I hope we can discuss and flesh out. or just think I it doesn't affect me at all. Like like you said, it's here and you're already engaging with it probably more. than you realize. And so we need to be thinking deeply and rightly and in line with God's word about these things. And and because it is here, we cannot just avoid it. and I think that sometimes we're tempted to rush to even label things as like good or bad or evil or even avoidable because we think they're evil or bringing harm. and I think just like we could say all sorts of technology, even our cell phones, you know, are they tools that can be used for many good e good things, helpful for our productivity, our connection with other people, so many things. Yes. Are they a way that we can invite evil and harm into our lives? And they can be used for harm and for for not God honoring things, absolutely. Yeah. And so they're here, it's here, it's a tool, it's a technology. let's be eyes wide open to the reality that we're living in in twenty twenty six and do it grounded, anchored in God's word and understanding as disciples of Christ how we engage in the world that we live in today. Because I think it's really important. Totally. Okay. Let's jump in. I think, you know we don't need to spend a ton of time hashing out situations that are pretty inherently and obviously negative uses of it, wrong uses where we would caution people not to. you mentioned higher education, you know, for students listening or for us as parents who have kids in school still, it's I think it's obvious to us all. If you're asked to write an essay, then the expectation is that you're generating that content on your own with your own human mind. And so to use a generative AI tool to help you create an essay would be a dishonest fabrication of submitting a homework assignment. Right. Because you're claiming that it's your own. Yeah. Yeah. That's the fundamental issue there. Yeah. It's not that I used an artificial intelligence tool to create an essay. if you were allowed to do that, if that was part of the the assignment, then okay, that's different. But it's precisely because you're claiming that it's yours that now you have committed an academically dishonest infraction. and and the the one of the biggest issues that I see happening is that people will quickly run to AI, and then use what AI spits out as their own ideas. they won't attribute it And that that I would say is like the kind of the bottom level of of the problem of it. You're not attributing it. But then I I also think that even if we think about the creation of ideas from artificial intelligence, what it's doing to our ability to think well. So if if I am Created in the image of God, as we've talked about in previous episodes. And so I am part of that being created in the image of God is that I think according to the truth of God. That's that resemblance view of the image of God. I resemble God in my thinking. I'm renewed in my thinking, Romans twelve. If I am dependent on an extra biblical tool to be able to think well about something, Then it isn't that I am thinking according to the truth of God, it's that I'm thinking according to what I'm told the truth of God is. and that's and and that is not that's not being an image bearer at that point. That is me running to a tool as a substitute and calling it sufficient for the thing that I was actually created to do, and that is to to think well according to the truth of God. so there's a in in neuroscience and brain science there is a phenomenon called extended cognition. So extended cognition is that I can't keep everything in my brain. You can't remember everything. so extended cognition is I have tools at my disposal that become an extension of my brain. A helpful example of this is a shopping list. If you went to a grocery store and you had ten things that you needed to get and you did not have a shopping list, what would you do? You would you would remind yourself on the drive there, you would be like, I know there were ten things, but I can only remember eight. yeah, that's right. And then you would remember the other two, or the aisles would jog your memory. There would be process happening. You would be meditating on it and reflecting on it and reminding yourself of it. And that's actually ingraining it in your mind. But if you have a shopping list, do you actually have to remember anything? You don't. What you have to remember is you have a shopping list. That takes up so much life. Less space in your brain. And our brains are naturally do that all the time. When I when I have a tool outside of me that I know I can just go to that thing and it has the information that I need, I will not store it in my brain. My brain will it will only store where to go. Now imagine we have this repository of unlimited information on the internet called ChatGPT or Google Gemini or Claude or whatever. I don't have to remember anything. I can just go to that thing And now what's happening? My own thinking is not being shaped by the real world anymore. My thinking is being continually shaped by the tool that I've given space to in my mind, and that is AI. Mm-hmm. we're talking about students specifically in this example, you know, there is a time where it becomes more appropriate to utilize and lean on a tool. Like if we think about mathematics, you have to learn the the processes to problem solve and to be able to solve an equation. and that's what the teachers are expecting, and that is the purpose of your education. So when you go to do the assignment, take the test, the expectation is that you're relying on the processes in your mind to show that you have learned the processes that it requires, there will be a time where it's perfectly acceptable to use the tool of a calculator to do the calculations for you. Sure. Just like there are times to generate things, even in AI, that could be completely appropriate. Like a shopping list. And like you brought up, you might say, okay, here's the five recipes that I want to make this week. Can you generate a shopping list? You know, you don't necessarily need to go, you're not getting extra points or being more human by writing it all on a list. Totally. It could be totally appropriate to use a tool to do that kind of a calculation or you know, an exercise for you and generate a list. That's the content. And that's that doesn't dehumanize us. There's no dishonesty to that. So you can use the same tool to do the same thing, sometimes generate content. but what I heard you saying too is is the expectations, the scenario you're in, how you're presenting it, if it's an honest representation of was I supposed to generate this with my own mind, or was it okay for me to lean on other tools and how am I presenting that? that to my teacher or to the world, those are all very important factors to be considering. Totally. And like I think I I do home improvement projects all the time around the house, especially when when Jeannie has an idea of something she'd love to do and so I'll figure out how to do it. And I use a nail gun a lot. well those didn't exist a hundred years ago. And somebody would have said, that's cheating. You need to use a good old fashioned hammer and nail. Well, no, I mean the the tool helps. I know how to use a hammer and a nail and that's why I appreciate the nail gun too. Because I know how to do the thing, like what you're saying with math. I know how to do the thing and now the calculator just makes it faster. But I know I know how to add. the calculator just helps me to add faster. But I actually learned it. However, mathematics and a hammer are morally neutral. There there isn't there is not a morality that has been baked into them That may or may not reflect a biblical worldview. Instead, they are they are inanimate amoral objects. They ha amoral meaning they have no morality. AI is not amoral. Yeah. It it can't be morally neutral because it's moral agents called people who establish the first coding and the parameters of it and are are seeking to advance AI. And the way that it will be advanced is going to be in line with the morality of the people who give approval to it and who create it. And so that piece is I think that's the piece that should actually concern us. Right. it's it isn't the existence of AI, because if AI was truly morally neutral, then then I would say it it really is then just a tool. but it is that it is that moral baggage piece that you really can't get away from. that that presents the biggest problem for us in our use of it. So I think use is is one important piece morally. But then what the the word is ontologically that's a big word, but ontology is is the study of being. What is something? What does it mean to be something? and so ontologically, AI presents a problem as humans as we interact with it, as we start using personal pronouns to refer to different AI bots. And I know of people who have personal relationships with their AI bots and they spend more time with AI than with actual people. That's a that's a human issue now. I think those are probably the two biggest red flags about AI that that you have to be really clear on and know where the boundary is so that you don't go beyond it. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important for people to think deeply about the distinction you just made and understand that AI is pulling information, that is not neutral, like numbers are neutral, like the the distinction there, it's pulling information and then giving you recommendations or generating things. And you can certainly it adapts to your prompting, to the prompting of people. so you can prompt it to, you know, consider a certain worldview or consider certain things or exclude others, but you'd have to be very specific. Very, very specific. and careful. I've all I've also noticed it tends to be really nice to the person who's talking to Very affirming. And if I like if I've tried different prompts and I'll have to be like, don't make me just sound like give me Neutral feedback, like honest feedback, direct. I don't even know what words, because can it be honest? I just I can tell that it tends to be like, okay, it looks like you did XYZ really great. You know, here was the strongest point of that conversation or whatever. so you have to recognize that what it is outputting is based on certain inputs. And is it inputs it just pulled from Who knows where? Or is it inputs that you gave it, but did you fail to leave out a key piece? I think this has been really relevant for me personally. I have a job in the business sector and our boss has been encouraging us for several months now to find more and more ways to be leaning on this tool of AI in our company. We have a lean, efficient kind of entrepreneurial firm. And so he's encouraged us to continue to find ways to use it. and we've already run into several hurdles along the way. I've worked on projects and I took some of our company information and and input it into Claude, but I was the one that gave it the strategic prompts to know what to do with the information that it was pulling from. And what I wanted to see in the report and no make exclude that. That's not relevant to our business, but I want to see this and I wanna know the forecast of this specifically. And I paused before I went and presented those to my boss because I thought, how am I gonna be able to make sure he knows what were my strategic thoughts? Those are my strengths. That's my mind. Yeah. And it's because of my specific questions and prompts that this. report that we now have that will be helpful to us. AI did all of the number computations and generated the report beautifully and that's fine. But I want my strategic abilities to be on display from my boss and how do I differentiate? Or I found some other administrative things that it could quickly do for us. So here's those are just some examples in the last month of the hurdles that we're running into. Yeah. In the the business sector with it. Yeah, which then which then brings up a kind of a third category of things to be concerned about is the moral fallout of our use of AI. Is is it is it morally neutral? for someone to lose their job because AI can do a job better. I don't I don't think that is morally neutral. I think that's that is driven by an immoral motivation ultimately to cut costs and Yeah. If we want it to optimize our costs and revenue, it will absolutely do that. And hundreds of people might be fired from corporations and families are affected and communities. Right. And it's not it's not immoral to want to be a profitable company. I think that it is immoral from a biblical world view to seek profit over doing right by people. Exactly. And I you know, when when when you were just talking about different uses of it, it it I started just thinking about what is it that makes someone uniquely human as compared to the rest of creation. because Computers have been have been doing computational models and programming for us for decades. and and we haven't had a problem with it. What what is uniquely human that is impossible for technology to replicate is our is our diverse ways of being creative. So so technology can only be creative to the extent that it's programmed to be creative. until unless there's some advancement in technology that they have not reached yet. but there was a study done where th they took written works of humans and similar written works by AI and they compared them and they found that it was either thirty or forty percent more creative vocabulary was used in the human writing samples than the AI writing samples. Another example would be like an artist. a a computer can certainly generate an image, but that image is wholly dependent on the graphics engine of the computer that's driving it and the and the prompting that you give. It could never rival the creative genius of a Van Gogh or, you know, any other famous painter. Like the what makes those paintings so beautiful and valuable is they were produced by a human mind. That was able to transfer from the mind to the hand, to the brush, to the canvas. So there is there is a an an element of caution that I think we should rightly have when it comes to AI, where at the point that I am becoming dependent on this thing to do the thing God gifted me to do, I have a problem. because it's no longer me who's doing it. And so now I would say that that has a direct impact on my ability to glorify God in the life that I live. And what what is it that would compel me to use AI to that extent? It would be valuing things like efficiency, productivity, but the human life is not measured in efficiency or productivity. In fact, there are there are very real and necessary human experiences that are s are fundamentally inefficient. And if we if we circumvent those pro those things Because we want to use AI to just get it done quicker. We we are the ones who suffer as a result because we are then not able to glorify the Lord the way He made us to live. Mm-hmm. I love how you keep referring back to what makes us human because it's so distinctive. yet we're so tempted to rely so heavily on these tools, to be more efficient, to be more productive, to perfect ourselves in our world in a way. What would be wrong with polishing every email I send? To yet we know that we crave authenticity and realness and even imperfections while at the same time try to convince ourselves that we have to be. Be perfect and present without fault or error. So these are just completely intention. but we've talked a lot about in this is kind of a newer understanding for me, but the use of generative AI, computations, creating content, things like that. and then there's agenic AI. you referenced it a little bit talking about relationships with the chatbot and things like that. But Agenic AI we're where it's actually an agent working on its own. So we talked a lot about how you can prompt it and give AI inputs to then receive a certain output. But agentic AI is is trained to then work autonomously and be automated. So it's not only receiving information and inputs, but then it's reasoning and deciding and taking action on its own. I have another. You can tell why I wanted to talk about this because I have a lot of real life situations just in the last month, but I have a situation where I'm receiving some training and had some some thoughts that maybe the feedback I was receiving from a supervisor was potentially agenic AI. Just because what started as like, wow, they have such a high capacity or they can process so so quickly. How can they do that? It must just be all their years of experience. the gap between what seemed normal for human behavior and processing and the way that you would communicate with another human, the gap just grew and grew. And Because it was a a long distance relationship that was mostly happening over written communication, that's how I it took a while to unfold. Yeah. there's still some uncertainty around whether or not that's happening, but it at least causes you to wonder. It causes you to wonder, which I don't think is great. the thing about it though is I don't I think there are some that might be like, that's overtly wrong. But what when you think of training an agent to represent you, so it could operate as you, think of things like receiving emails, reading them, and then responding back. And it can pull from all of your stuff that you have legitimately and authentically created. So if this is happening in my situation, the feedback that I'm receiving, it would be based on this person's actual material that they did create over years. and years and you could feed all of that in. let's say for you, for example, maybe you had all sorts of recordings and written drafts of your sermons. You could dump your dissertation in there. You can say here's some clips of conversations I've had with people. This is the style in which I usually speak. And it's going to take all this information. I mean you could dump years and years. Here's my emails for years and years. This is how I typically respond to people in my church when they have these kind of prayer requests. This is how I normally give feedback to my students. I mean you could create it to be a Stefan agent. Right. And then say, here's the text for this week. Can you generate a sermon that sounds like me and is authentic to me? Yep. Can you I'm gonna put this Stefan agent in my email inbox because my capacity is limited. So now when my church members email me asking for counsel or a question about a text or whatever, my agent is gonna respond on their behalf, but it's all me. I fed it. It's you know, it's not pulling from the interwebs out there, it's my email. Emails in my content. Yeah. And sounds it sounds reasonable if we if we are saying it's it's just a tool to help us optimize our humanity. Yeah. my response to that would be I think that there is value in us being very honest about our limitations. And appropriately scaling our ambitions to match. The reason why we need the reason why we feel like we need an AI agent to do those things because I don't have capacity to do them is because I thought I was God for a little bit there. That I was all powerful, all knowing, could be in all places at all times, that I could work while I slept, meaning I don't need rest, and because I can just duplicate myself. And so even while I sleep, I'm working so that I can be omnipresent rather than being really honest with the limitations that God has by his grace and kindness and good design given me. Yeah. I think that tech the the biggest The biggest pitfall that technology gives us is an a vision of a life without limitations. Like you think about think about medical limitations. prosthetics give me a vision for a life where I can have that limb back. That's and that's not bad. I think there's a there's a huge spectrum here. Reproductive technology gives me a vision for a life where I can have the family that I can't have with the body that I presently have. I think there are forms of that that that are much more permissible than other forms. Right? Like that's that's a spectrum in and of itself in terms of reproductive technology. but but what starts to happen is we start to neglect the reflection on our limitations because of the vision for something better or something that we think is going to be better. it I don't I don't know of I you know I I could be wrong. I'm spitballing here because this is on the fly. But I don't know of anywhere in scripture where the grace of God And the glory of God is obviously displayed when we just crush it. Yeah. Well that's what I was thinking, is like in my weakness the power of Christ is on display. I mean we are erasing, trying to erase any kind of dependence on the Lord, which is flies in the face of scripture and the gospel essentially. And this is gonna sound like a wild comparison. But Hold on to your hats, everyone. I hope that by the time I get done explaining it, as I'm processing it and as I'm speaking, that it makes sense. the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11 was let us ascend to the heavens. It's it's not it's not like let's just build a really big building. It is the Tower of Babel. is the is the pinnacle of the rebellion narrative of Genesis three through eleven. Because in twelve then you have God calling Abram, I'm gonna bless you and make a great nation out of you, and from you the nations of the earth will be blessed. So there is the the the the the looking ahead to God's Invasion of the world with his kingdom through the seed of Abraham, who's ultimately going to Christ. Well, before that, you have Genesis 3 through 11, which is just a it is, we're just increasing in the rebellion. That's where the flood is. That's where you have the generations from Cain, where seven generations from Cain, Lemech is in in his own words, seven times more evil than Cain. Like you just have this growth of Rebellion that reaches its crescendo at the Tower of Babel. And the reason why the Tower of Babel is the crescendo of rebellion is because the people at Babel say we are going to ascend to the heavens and be like God. It's the same rebellion as Adam and Eve in Genesis three. It's just now they're working together to do it. It's it's Genesis three was deception that led to the wrong ambitions. Genesis 11 is straight up rebellion. Embracing the wrong ambitions and acting on it, and God undoes it by confusing their languages so that they can't talk anymore. He redeems that then in Acts chapter two at Pentecost, when everybody who speaks different languages hears the gospel in their own language. so we see in scripture that the answer to rebellion is Christ. When we try to elevate ourselves in our rebellion, we will be humbled. And the way to the way to how be in right relationship with God is submission to him through Christ. Okay. What does that mean for for Me trying to replicate myself so that I can ascend to the heavens, so that I can be as close to God as I can be, make as much money as I can possibly make, be in as many places at once. When you say as close to God, you don't mean relationally, you mean be like God. Right. I mean yeah, I mean in my being, how close can I get to to being God of my own life? Like that's really what I mean. Yeah. and I th I think that that is that is the very real temptation of the age that we live in and the antidote to that is to say I will embrace my weaknesses so that the power of Christ can be visible in me. And may I never may I never respond to an email to somebody in our church who is broken or hurting or is in need of shepherding with an AI agent. Yeah. Like that would be such an abdication of the pastoral office that I should never be a pastor again. And unfortunately, it is too easy to justify doing it in the name of busyness. that I know that it's I know that it's already happening in with other people in ministry. I know that guys write their sermons with AI. I don't think it's wrong to use AI to get feedback. Like you write a sermon, you pop it in. Here's where I'm trying to go, what's missing, what could be helpful. Like, okay. but you also have people who can do that for you. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna be much more relational and it's not just gonna be affirming like AI always is. Yeah. so I I don't see a lot of things. I think what I'm getting at is I don't see a lot of things where AI is a legitimate replacement for human beings or for God Himself. It is an easy replacement that actually isolates me from people more and isolates me from God more, which then will lead to me living a deficiently human life. Yeah. Yeah. Again, this theme of like what it means to be human. I mean, early on we talked about there's an engagement of our mind and our discernment. And too, the the moral laws that are written on our hearts according to scripture that We know how to discern right from wrong when we are engaging our human beingness. So that is removed even in simple uses of the the generative AI uses and then moving into the agentic uses this idea of Being human means that I recognize my limitations and my weaknesses because that is exactly what leads me to Christ. Yeah. relying on him, abiding in him, and reflecting him. So using AI to like scan my fridge and say what can I make for dinner tonight based on what's in there, probably okay. I think that's okay. But if I'm on top chef n you know, and using it to generate a a recipe that's gonna win me half a million dollars or something, I don't know, I don't watch that show, but whatever the prize is, that would maybe be dishonest. Yeah. So there's a whole gamut here. But really thinking about what it means to be human, what it means to reflect Christ, what it means to represent him, what it means to abide in Christ and be willing to recognize our weaknesses because that is when we rely on him, we're sanctified, he's his powers on display. That's what it means to be human. And so we can engage with a technology like this to a certain extent. Right. But I want to encourage our people to continue to think about how this is showing up in their lives. and how to engage with it in a God honoring way. These are real things that are happening. And I think that it's helpful to have these kind of conversations where we can really look at that together and talk about the practical application as believers for things that affect our everyday lives, things that we need to instruct our kids in as they're growing up in this world and represent the Lord well. Yeah. I think probably the the last thing that I'll add is Paul says something really helpful in First Corinthians eight and nine, and then in Romans fourteen. In First Corinthians eight and nine he's talking about the food sacrificed to idols and talks about not forcing someone to violate their conscience. And then in Romans fourteen he says, anything that does not proceed from faith is sin. Okay, what does that mean? Well, faith is a dependence on God. Anything that doesn't proceed from that is sin. Why? Well, because if I do something not knowing if I should, and I do it anyways, what what I'm doing is I'm I have a motivation that is outside of glorifying the Lord. Something else is motivating me to do that thing, regardless of. what it might mean for my relationship with God and I'm choosing it anyways. So I'm removing God from the equation and pursuing it for something lesser. Well that actually is the very heart of sin. It's to pursue something other than what God wants from me because I want this thing. That's what he means. Anything that you do where you don't know if it's right and you do it anyways, it means that you're motivated by something else and something else has your heart and that's what's compelling you to do that thing and that will always be sin. So in the AI conversation, if you're not sure if you should use AI for that thing, don't. Because it will be the wrong use at that point because you aren't sure. and And when we too often go ahead and and pursue things that that diminish our humanity and diminish our limitations and maximize our effectiveness, what we're really saying is that the thing that I'm pursuing is efficiency and productivity and performance and accolades, all the things that are gonna take me away from the Lord. So when I can use it because I'm trying to figure out what what sheen of paint is gonna work best for this particular room in my house. Okay, okay. That's fine. but when I'm when I'm doing it because I'm trying to look better for my boss compared to my my counterparts, and I'm gonna pass it off as my own and I'm not really sure if I should do that and I go ahead and do it, yeah, that's sin. Yeah. Romans 14 would say, that's sin. Don't do it. so we would honestly do really well to to humbly be dependent on the spirit and humbly be relying on one another to keep to keep one another in check and hold one another accountable and and help us help one another to think better. We would do really well just to kind of like approach AI the way that scripture says we should approach anything. Yeah. To to test it. To discern what the will of the Lord is and to step forward in confidence, knowing that we probably won't go as far as other people. If you invest in the market on your own by doing your own research, you're probably not going to make as much money as somebody who uses AI bot to do it. but if you if you are confident that doing it on your own is is okay, but using an AI bot, I'm not really sure. I actually think it's a worthwhile trade to say Yeah, I won't I won't be as successful. Yeah. But at least I'll be confident that I'm walking with the Lord. Yeah. What a revealing thing to think through something with that kind of a test according to the scriptures. and come out saying, Yeah, I'm okay relying on the Lord instead of putting my faith in my boss to see my performance, the market to give me the best return and those kind of things. a tough question, but an important one, to reflect and And be praying about this week, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal what's truly in our hearts, even when we think about these really practical, relevant things that we interact with daily. but so good and helpful for the discipleship of our people today. So thanks for helping walk us through that. I know there's so many things we didn't even get to, but I think it spark it grounds us in the truths that we should be anchored in as we navigate these things and people can go and have their own conversations and in their small groups continue to talk about this because there's so many different ways that this is playing out in our lives. Thank you guys for joining us for the Harvest After Sunday podcast where we help you grow into the image of Christ by applying the truths of his word for his mission. We'll see you Sunday.