Latest / Outside the Box Education Podcast / I Thought I Was Failing at Homeschooling— Until I Saw This | #4 with Bethany Deardeuff

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I Thought I Was Failing at Homeschooling— Until I Saw This | #4 with Bethany Deardeuff · Outside the Box Education Podcast

• Outside the Box Education: Welcome to Outside the Box Education Podcast, where we believe education was never meant to be a one size fits all. I'm your host, Melissa Whittaker. Whether you're homeschooling, considering homeschooling, or simply looking for a better way to educate your children, you're in the right place. Together, we'll explore how to homeschool with confidence, let go of the pressure to do it perfectly, and create an education that truly fits your family. So take a deep breath, think outside the box, and let's learn together. Welcome, Bethany Dear Duff, to Outside the Box Education Podcast. We're so happy to have you. We're actually long-lost cousins. We kind of grew up on opposite ends of the country. So first tell me about your family and how many kids do you have? How old are they? Tell me a little bit about yourself. Okay. So yeah, our dads are brothers. We hung out a lot as little kids and then moved to different places and also fun to reconnect. Yeah. So I am married to Michael. We got married about twenty-one years ago. And we have five kids. They're nineteen, seventeen, fifteen, almost eleven, and seven. how long have you been homeschooling? Have you always homeschooled? Did you start at some so my husband was homeschooled on and off, and I went to public school my whole education and I I had some good good public school experiences, but I really wanted more. I wanted more like customizableness, like from my own education. And so when I met Michael and heard about his experience of homeschooling, just so much freedom and he could do the things that he was interested in more than just jumping through the hoops, that really appealed to me. And so we decided to homeschool our kids. And we did have a little blip of sending one of them to public school for just a few months, but it was mainly just a crisis of confidence of me like I can't do this and then I realized that wasn't gonna work and I pulled him out. so yeah but that it's been so my oldest is 19. So it's been since he was in kindergarten. Wow awesome do you have a certain way of homeschooling? Tell me have you started with a certain method? Has it evolved? Tell me how that's gone. So my journey is really tied up with mental health because I've had a lot of mental health things going on. in my life and then also my kids have really dealt with anxiety and there's some depression in there too. So the method that I started with was the survive method. Okay. And we're just gonna get through the day. And when my oldest was in kindergarten, I had a three year old and a one year old. And I didn't know it at the time, but all three of them have autism. Wow. And I also didn't know that I have ADHD. So there was a lot going on and it was get through the day. And then also my oldest taught himself to read at four. So we really weren't worried about like, are you meeting milestones? They were so they were just thirsty for learning. So we did a lot of like hanging out at construction sites and interviewing construction workers about their machines. And you know, always at the library, always building Legos, reading tons of books, and we just kept going like that. And my second and third learned to read, and then my daughter joined the mix, and there's a four-year gap between her and her older brother. And at this point I was really wanting to have more structure. And like we had joined a co-op that and the co-op is Thomas Jefferson Education or Leadership Education. But that still wasn't really what I was doing at home. But I the co-op was a great fit for us as far as the families there. And so I was trying to do more at home, but I really just wasn't I wasn't able to do the things that I thought I should do. Yeah. So there was a lot of frustration and good with that. And anyway, down the years my son was born and you know a lot of diagnoses along the way of kids and me and my husband has it's called Audi HD, where they have autism and ADHD. And my oldest is also has that. And so I just really learned your two boys. So all three of my oldest have autism. Okay, okay. And then the oldest of those three has ADHD as well. Okay, gotcha. So like a net. additional complication. And he also actually has allergies and asthma and a lot of really he had a lot of complicated things that made his early life really like not a lot of sleep, a lot of frustration. And just not understanding what they need as kids is the hardest for a parent, right? When you're just trying to help them and you don't know what to do. So anyway, but as my When my baby was born, my littlest, that's when I really started to feel like I am trying to fit myself into a box as a homeschool parent that isn't the right size of shape for me. Like this box is the right box for me. And so I for a while I actually had some trust and some faith in myself. And I decided to stop trying to do like an organized structure. And not that I was doing it, but I was gonna stop like trying to make myself. Right. And I was telling some friends about this and she's just like, What happened? What's the miracle? What's the secret sauce? And I was like, We missed a lot of appointments. It wasn't great. When I stopped appointments as in like certain deadlines that you wanted to make? Or no, like, we just like didn't make it to the dentist when I had scheduled it because I lost track of it. Right. Like it wasn't she was expecting me to say, and it worked out and it was beautiful. I'm like, No, it was a hot mess. Right. But what I had started to learn to do was just listen to my own intuition, right? And to f like look at my kids and say, what do you need? Not what does the third grade curriculum think you need? and and because my children, for the most part, are really curious and want to learn, I mean, if they had specific learning disabilities, there's other things that could go on. they all wanted to learn to read. They all wanted to you know, stretch themselves. And my youngest particularly just loves math and puzzles. And so as long as I was presenting things and having opportunities for them, they were able to soak that all up. And so it's been interesting now that I've been on the like, don't try and create a structure for about three years. But a natural structure has sort of emerged out of that. And I've created my own structure, like this It's not a box, but it fits my shape, right? It fits us. And that's been really lovely to see how it's not that it's not that structure is bad. It's that I was trying to be someone else. Right. And so allowing myself to be really genuine allowed the structure to sort of emerge that would support us better. Yeah. Yeah. I smile because I want to find somebody who homeschools who. Started out with a certain idea and stayed with it the whole time. I think we all evolve. We all have this idea I don't think that's Right. There's no there's no such thing. We all evolve. We we think we're doing it the right way and then we figure out, you know what? There is no right way. Your way, my way is is the right way. What feels good? So yeah. Yeah. Well, and I I actually well, I don't know if I am anymore, but I used to be a little envious of people who even started with a philosophy. Like I started with I know nothing and I'm on this journey of learning. And hopefully by the end we'll get to something that is recognizable. And actually my oldest graduated two Aprils ago and I had incredible imposter syndrome. Like we never I never got to the year where we actually did it the way I thought we should. And I'm like, and yet here he is, 18 and incredibly wonderful young man. Like He's learned things that like he said something to me the other day that was way over my head about I can't remember engineering or science. And I was like, Well, I can dismiss all my guilt that I never did a math curriculum with you because obviously you are and that's not true. He did math curriculum on his own after he got to a certain level and like he did online classes, but but I never forced it and it happened anyway. And so that was that was always the guilt or the like, I feel so bad I didn't give you this like picture book Montessori childhood and or not necessarily Montessori, but any kind of like idyllic where we all learn together and like that was my ideal and particularly with my autism kiddos, they needed space from each other. And so I've had to really accept. Us all learning together works for me, but it doesn't work for all of them. Anyway, but it they didn't need that. They each needed different things. And I think that's been the other thing that I've learned is each of these kids is so unique. Right? They they are siblings and they're all my kids, but that's about as far as it goes. Similarities and Yeah, my daughter needs a lot of private one-on-one time to really feel safe. And when she does, she just blooms and she's delightful and so like sharp as attack and funny and so curious and making connections. And my youngest son is like Mr. Extrovert in this house of introverts. And he needs tons of movement, tons of friend time, you know, and then he's actually calmer because. He's gotten his his inputs, right? And we actually had him tested and he doesn't have ADHD or autism. And I was like, maybe the reason he's odd to us is because he's the only one who's neurotypical in our family. Rolls is like, Joseph, you're a little different. But learning how to meet those needs, right? Like he's the one that I have in in a group piano class because he thrives on that social along with what he's learning. And he is very musical. He loves. To sing and play and just supporting them in different ways. my daughter is getting what we're about about to start putting her in horseback riding. And I think that's gonna be such a perfect fit for her because of the her love of animals. And then it's one-on-one and it's like at her own pace, not in a big group where she's gotta keep up. Okay. So let's kind of start with the hardest. Like, what has been some of the hardest part of homeschooling for you? I think the hardest part is when when I am depleted, I can't pour out. And then compounding to that, when my children don't get along and just I just want to have a peaceful environment and they are bugging each other. And and I think the way that I've been able to like like triage that is I mean, took a lot of years to kind of dial in, but kind of zoom out and forget about learning outcomes and just think, what do we need? What does one of us need? What do we all need? And most of the time, it's either we need to get out of the house or we need to stay in the house. Like it's just like dialing in on the right amount of are we go and going, going too much, or have we been just chilling and we need some more. We need to be curious about something. So we stop nitpicking because we're just in each other's space too much. And so like adjusting the level of social and community and like field trips or outings. Yeah, it's been a kind of of like a tightrope of that that sweet spot of how much how much out of the house time are we getting and how much being together are we getting. I love that you said zooming out because I think that's where where we second guess everything when we all zoom in and we're like, okay, this is exactly how it needs to be and and this puzzle, this puzzle piece needs to fit in this shape exactly. And we're so zoomed in. So I love that you said zooming out because I think that's such a good visual for what's the overall picture, not the very, very specifics that we feel like has to happen. Yeah. And what I think I think that's exactly right because when we zoom in, you know, what we're seeing is the one piece that's bugging us. Or that it's not working, but we can't fix it there at that level. We have to go to another dimension to fix the problem. I remember a quote now, I don't remember who said it, but we can't fix the problem at the level at which it was created. We have to shift something to get a different perspective. But I also find that those little things, right? Like we're we're nitpicking each other, or I'm just like so bugged by my my siblings loud game that they're playing or whatever. When we when we deal with the overall, like, we all need more outside time, and then we'll all be a little bit more regulated, then we go back to that lower level and those things almost always resolve themselves. Or like a gentle reminder of like, your sibling is. A human that's learning and growing and they're gonna be loud and messy sometimes. And can you find some other space to be in? Or those kind of things are really easy after we've dealt with you're hungry, you have a cold and you need to go to sleep. Like, or I'm hungry and I need to just like drop everything and make food for everyone today. And like that's the lesson today. Or we're just really lonely and we need to go see friends. And so figuring out those kind of big things and not Letting myself dismiss the smaller stuff and dealing with the big stuff has that's been my big lesson, but it's been like many years harder. Yep. Yep. Okay. So tell me what is one of those moments that just made you think this is why we homeschool. Tell me about some of your beautiful moments that it just been like, this is why we're doing what we're doing. Yeah. So I've had two and one was a long time ago. And one was very recently. So I thought they were kind of good examples. when I think my oldest was six, so we had six, four, and two. And we had just started our co-op. And our co-op was mostly young families at that point. And we had co-op on Fridays and we met at a building near a beach. So I live in Washington, in western Washington, near the Puget Sound. and there's this amazing lighthouse beach that happened to be right next to our building that we rented. And so after co-op in the afternoon, we all just went over and sat. And it was like at the beginning of September when we had just started, but the weather was still really beautiful. And I just remember sitting on this beach and the kids are all playing and it's like it's cold water and it's a rocky beach. So no one's like swimming. It's like we're playing on the rocks and walking around, but like toes in the water at most. So no one's like worried about water safety. And of course we don't have swim clothes. At school anyway. But I was sitting there and just I was getting my cup filled, sitting with other moms and was just visiting and like really relaxed and enjoying our time together. The rocks were warm. I remember the sensory of like feeling these sun-drenched warm rocks. And then my kids were totally relaxed, right? Like they were either on their own playing or with friends, but they could all sort of figure out where they wanted to be. And it felt like This is so much freedom from the constraints of a dictated schedule, right? We can stay until we're hungry and then we'll go home and eat. And then we just can decide what we need. And and also getting getting that community time in is still a big need, right? and that just is like an idyllic afternoon in my in my memory. And it was one of those like you stay there longer than. you feel like is reasonable because everyone's just having such a good day. And and then another time rec more recently, we live near a lake. And so we have a lot of water around us, we which is really fun. But it was like the last couple weeks of summer before co-op is gonna start again. And a bunch of moms had all gotten like messaging each other and saying, hey, we need to do a lake day before the end of summer. We figured out the time, we figured out the lake, and we all showed up with like the mini kayaks and floaties and just like all the beach gear and bags full of snacks and the one waterfront area we were at has a kind of a long shallow area, like a beach area. And so all the moms had their swimming suits on and we're all standing like waist high in the water. My friend has a one year old, so she's like got her one year old on her hip and like all the kids are like in little floaties and kayaks all around us and swimming. And we just stay again, we stayed for a really long time because what else have we got to go do that's not here? Like I think my daughter was kayaking or swimming for like four hours with her best friend. And I'm like, this is so good. She is so much more regulated when she has exercise, but She's very uninclined to do it without friends. So having this, it was just like this wonderful afternoon. We had plenty of snacks. Nobody was like, I'm super hungry. And yeah, it was my best friend from my co-op is that was there. And we kind of were the last two. Like everyone kind of petered off and like left when they needed to. And then we're like, then her baby was getting exhausted. And so it's like that was kind of our time limit. We had to go. But and I really believe in. We all leave at the same time because the momentum makes it a thousand times easier to get everyone out of water in the park. So, but that was just yeah, I was like, this is why we're doing it because they're all learning and no one's forcing. Everyone's just wanting to learn. Everyone's like, my daughter's got swimming goals that she made herself. She's not in lessons, but she wants to learn because she loves swimming and she enjoys it. And so it's like it really is to me. the the days when homeschooling doesn't look like school and it just looks like real life. And it also feels like not school because we're having so much fun. Yeah. So and even though I have introverts, they all have friends that are like, they don't want a huge group of friends. And so I find that that time when we can be with friends, it's so much more motivating to do things that are hard or challenging for us if we want to do them with friends. But I just had that thought this afternoon, that afternoon as we were there. I was like, this is why we homeschool, because we don't have to get up the next morning and like, we're so stressed. We got to get back into a routine. We can just, okay, we had a big day yesterday. Let's have a slow day today and balance it out. It's true. You do have the moments. It sounds to me like you were just having a moment where everybody was healthy. Everybody was, and I mean healthy as in like mentally healthy, like happy with their life. It's I feel like it's th this idyllic thing that you read about in maybe old fashioned books where there weren't electronics, there weren't schedules that had to be one after the next. You just have that healthy moment where you're like, This is what my kids childhoods is supposed to be like. We don't feel this need to fulfill all of these homework assignments and get essays and sit in a classroom and and it just feels healthy. Like that's what it sounds to me like. Like and almost all of my days like that are outside. Like we're in the woods or we're at the water. Although I will have to say sometimes we're in the kitchen baking or we're doing a messy art project and it's also that moment. But outside is my favorite. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Okay. So tell me some things that you wish that people understood about homeschooling, about homeschooling the way that you do it and homeschooling in general. So I think I think that there's a range, right? People hear about homes don't homeschool, hear about homeschooling from someone who does. And whoever does whoever they hear about it from, that's sort of their picture of it. And so that could be really open, or it could be really like, we just do the school curriculum at our house, right? And we sit at desks and we have to get it the workbook done by the end of the year. And I just wish people knew that homeschooling actually you can still take classes at the high school. You can homeschooling just means you have a choice and you recognize that you're you're sovereign. You can decide what you want to learn. So I recently met for the first time a young mom who has a five-year-old and a two-year-old, and she is homeschooling them and her husband is deployed. And She in Western Washington, we have really dark, gloomy winters. And she's dreading the winter because she's like, we're just gonna be cooped up by ourselves. This is gonna be really depressing. How are we gonna get through this? And you know, I wanted to encourage her, first of all, to reach out to community. For a hundred percent, she doesn't have to do it by herself. I was like, there were two other friends there. And I'm like, reach out, like, don't do this by yourself. That's too hard. That's so much. But then I also wanted, she was talking about her daughter's reading curriculum. And she's like, We're so much happier when we do it. But then sometimes I get too intense because I'm more I'm more invested in her learning it than she is. And like, what's the sound of the letter? And she's just like, I don't know. And anyway, so what I wanted to share with her, and what I think what we talked about after that was some people talk about holes. I'm worried about them having holes in their education, or what if they just don't learn something? And I was like, I don't really think about homeschool. And again, this is after like 15 years of experience. So this is not how I started out thinking about this. But I think of it like polka dots. So just like a plain piece of paper with polka dots on it. And whatever you choose to teach or learn, you just get a big dot for that. But you can't have a hole in polka dots. Like the knowledge of the universe is like the whole paper. Like there's no possible way. To cover the paper. Like that's just not a thing. And so whatever you think is important as the parent, then that's one of the things that you make sure you get a polka dot for that. And but I think the the other big thing is, well, two things. One is whatever they need to learn as an adult, they can learn. So you're teaching them how to learn, how to find knowledge, how to find mentors, how to judge what's a good book and what's maybe not gonna help you as much. And then also. having the perspective of like how many adults can you think of who say, I'm not great at spelling. I don't love math and they're successful in their lives. Like they find what they'd want to do. And that is not making them like disabled. Right? That they can function in their life with a good spell checker and a calculator and move on. And I also really believe that we should destigmatize math, but that's a whole nother conversation. Tell me a little I I'm curious. Tell me a little bit about that because you had mentioned that your oldest didn't necessarily do a lot of math curriculums. I'm curious, can I ask? Tell me your view on math is. So my husband is a recreational mathematician, which a lot of people don't know that that's a thing, but he doesn't do math for his work. He's a computer engineer, so it's related, but he loves math. And he does math for fun. And and so I think because he was homeschooled and he was never forced to do math in a public school way. And because of his natural affinity for it and talent for it, he just sees math as, well, first of all, he has a tremendous growth mindset. So if he doesn't know something, he feels totally excited about that thing. He wants to learn. And if he knows everything, he's like, that's boring. I want to find something. So he's the kind of person who like wants to work on a really hard puzzle because it's more interesting. It's more to figure out. I'm like trying to get over my fixed mindset. I'm like, it's too hard. I don't want to do that. And so he's taught me a lot about that's the fun part is the figuring out and not being afraid of not knowing. Right. And so I think a lot of times kids come into math with you got to get the right answer, you got to get it fast, and you got to get it without no second chances, right? Just the first time. And of course that's gonna make anybody hate anything, right? Like that's just a recipe for not that enjoying it. And so coming into math with a really a really I want to enjoy what. I can about numbers instead of I've got to know the times tables by the time I'm this age or else I'm a failure in life. Just a totally different mindset. And then he also sees math really holistically. So he's the kind of person that, you know, wants to talk about fractals and hexaflexagons and, you know, like let's draw geometry shapes or let's think about like infinity as a concept and like all of these just interesting math things. And yes, he thinks that, you know, arithmetic is important, but he doesn't think arithmetic is math. He's like, that's one idea in math. And that's a helpful idea and that's useful and we should learn it. But I just think having someone like that in my life for so long has really changed my appreciation. So I I'll give an example. I am a gardener and I love plants. I'm a just a big plant lady. And in one of our previous houses where we lived when Kate was born, I had some pretty bad postpartum depression. And yeah, it's I mean, I had depression before I had babies, and then I still had it after. It's given me a heart of a lot of empathy, but it's been rough. And I had there has someone else had planted a whole bunch of irises in the front of this house. And I would just sit in the front yard and Let the kids play in the street. It was actually a pretty amazing neighborhood because they had friends that were just neighbors that we really didn't get a get choose them as friends. We just played with whoever was there. And it was really lovely. But I would just sit where I just didn't have energy to do anything and I didn't have motivation, but I would just sit and tend the irises. They didn't really need tending, but I needed to sit there with them and play with the plants. It just was part of my healing for this journey of depression, right? And a lot of really nice, this is why we do this afternoons, right? In that front yard. So when we moved to this house, a friend gave me some of that same kind of iris and I planted them in the front. And what and every year they they multiply. You get more of them. And one year I was and I noticed they bloom in May. So I was like, I wonder what date the first one blooms. And I I wrote it down. I wrote how many flowers opened that day. Cause you see the buds coming up. It's like this long stalk and it's got multiple buds. And I I tracked, I made a graph. I wrote down every day how many were open, how many like, 'cause some had faded by the third day, like the first ones were gone, but then more were opening. And it was like this curve of like the numbers went up, and then slowly by the beginning of June, it's like we're down to like Three, then two, then the last one. And every day I'm out there like having the best time counting flowers. Right. Like it's just like this shouldn't be fun, but it is. And one of my kids one day was just like, What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm doing original math research just because I want to. Like for no particular reason, except that I'm just curious. I'm like, I wonder how many days total we get flowers. And I'm wondering how many there are at the biggest day, right? How many are open when it's just like purple everywhere and gorgeous. And what I realized was math is, people say math is a language or math is a skill or a tool. And I'm like, math is a language that can help me express this. Right. I could say there's tons of flowers. They're so pretty. It's purple everywhere. But if I say we go 40 days and we have purple every day. And at the middle of that we have 75 flowers open at once in this 10 foot area, right? That gives a different, like communicates something different, right? And so that's the power of math where you can say it was a thousand or it was twelve, or you know, like it's when we use language, English, English is really cool, but it doesn't do much with a few odds, bajillion, right? Like even that's a number, made up number. But I realize that math is not available to us in that way if we're afraid of it. If we think of it as just arithmetic and we're terrified and because it's it's just shame. It's just like packaging for I'm not good enough, right? And but actually you are. Everyone can think about numbers and count things and be curious about how that applies. Also think about a religious family. And when I'm out in my garden and I see plants that make a lot of seeds, like marigolds, like every single flower, like a hundred, maybe more seeds. And I just think this all came from one of those seeds and the the contrast of like one to however many flowers this plant's going to make over the summer, and how many seeds each of those flowers is going to make. And that each of those seeds could turn into another plant. That would make that many flowers and seeds. It's just like this, I get like shivers of excitement of like that's the generosity of God. Like how abundant the world is. And yeah. So when I'm outside my garden, it's like religion and math. That's perfect. And it's it's really hard to like describe to people. I'm like, you just have to come in the garden and then you'll see. But But that's part of why I like being out there is it's not just about plants to me. It's about I'm learning all these different things from the world, from nature. Yeah. I love the idea. I I wish I could have had it in my own education because math was always a struggle for me. But if I could have been taught from the beginning that I can I can look at math with curiosity and not like here's the worksheet that you have to do. And you probably won't do very well at it, but you have to do it anyways. I think that's beautiful, honestly. Because then for the rest of forever, you're not afraid of math. I struggle when I have to do math. In fact, I have a tutor for my daughter because I'm like, it's scary for me. And I feel like I'm just gonna like confuse her more. I love I love the concept of curiosity with math. I think that's amazing. Well, and I feel like you're just indentured to this, you know, the way you described learning it. You're indentured to feeling bad about yourself. Yes. You have to do this worksheet. You're never gonna be good at it, but you just have like that's that's horrible. Shame, shame. I think you had said and I'm like, absolutely. Yeah. I think that there's a generation of moms that are gradually seeing past that even though they're not experiencing it for themselves and not passing it on to their kids. And so I feel like a lot of hope for this younger generation that's saying, That's not. That's not our experience. My mom said she struggled with math, but I think it's great, you know, or having a different a different experience. So I think we're healing we're healing some of that. Yeah. No, I think that's beautiful. Okay, going back just a little bit, you had mentioned to your friend about community. Tell me why is that so important? Tell me what your experiences have been. So when we joined our co op, I was just floundering. I didn't know. Any any curriculum resources. I mean, it was just a mom who took her kids to the library. I was just like, that's what I want to do. I want to read books. So I guess that's what we should do. And I want to go outside. So let's go outside together. But community gave me access to basically, you know, a whole group of moms that then cared about my kids and they all have different talents than me. And some of them connected with my kids really in a way that I couldn't. And so then You know, these moms are all the teachers at the co-op, right? That we have different classes. And my kids have had the chance to take science classes and history classes and writing classes and like leadership, all different kinds of things from these other moms that have just I feel like colla collectively as a group of moms, we have so many talents, so many interests and experiences. And we have moms that used to be public school teachers that like. trained and to be a science teacher, right? And we have moms that have one mom in our co-op right now who is an emergency room physician, and one who has a master's in history, and one who is a really business minded marketing person. And then also just personality traits that aren't their education. And so my kids have been able to just flourish with exposure to these things that I don't have to know everything. And yes, like I never thought I had to know everything. Because of course we can go to books, we can go find a great YouTube video on this, but having a relationship with a friend's mom that's like super not intimidating, right? Like this is just my friend's mom. But then they can ask the person, Well, what do you think about this? And I could tell them what I think, but they have a little bit more experience with it. And so then my kids take their answer a little bit more seriously, or like they They listen differently to the responses. And I think then as they got older into the high school classes at our co-op, they also would have these really great discussions with their peers. So a big part of our co-op is reading classic books and discussing them. And by classic, I don't mean only old books, but like just whatever we deem as having that value of being worth going back to. Right. And, you know, reading these tough topics and discussing it together. And not necessarily coming up with an answer, but just like, well, what do my peers think about this? What do my teachers think? And I feel like that has cultivated in them an ability to ask hard questions and then also not always have an answer. And that's to me, that's really huge in especially being able to communicate with people who think differently than we do in a respectful way. I think that's been really Yeah. Something I was never taught as a kid, right? If I was in a conversation with someone that I disagreed with, the messaging to me, the nonverbal messaging was just don't be in that conversation. Like just don't don't open that can of worms, right? And and so then when I did get into those conversations, I didn't handle it very well because I hadn't had any experience. And so I would tend to be really confrontational and really really rude because I hadn't practiced. And so I love that they're getting this experience of, you know, we don't directly have like political debates in our co-op, but our co-op is not, it's open to all religions, all political denominations, and we actively protect that freedom to protect us from being too like insulated. We want to hear the other ideas so that we can understand them and respect them and maybe we'll change our mind if we learn something that. we didn't know before. I think that growing up I was raised much more in an environment of fear. We don't want to learn something because we might not believe what we believe and that we can't go there. That's too scary. I want my beliefs to hold up. I want them to be robust. I want them to be questioned. And maybe if this one's not holding up, then maybe I rethink it. Like that maybe it shouldn't be my belief if I don't if it doesn't hold up. Right. And I I think that they the ones that I really hold most dear can hold up to the scrutiny. Right. That's that's why I choose them. Yeah. So yeah. That's a that's a beautiful education. That's a class you can't sign up for. Right. That's awesome. Yeah. I also feel like the friendship piece of having a life. So my daughter, for example, there are very few people in her exact age that are in our co op. But there's a girl one year younger than her, and she is just they're just they love each other. They're best friends. And I was like, if you guys were in public school, first of all, you'd be in different school districts because you're like 25 minutes apart instead of next door neighbors. And and you'd be in different grades. And so you would just never be friends. And that is such a sad thing because they adore each other. And I feel like that's also a big piece of, you know, we have these friendships that are different ages of people. And that's a much more life skill. A bigger life skill than only people that are my exact age and gender and like everything's the same about us. And I mean, if there is someone your exact age, you can still be friends with them, but it doesn't it doesn't prohibit everything else. It opens that door. Yeah. Yeah. The diversity in learning is there. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. So last question. What do you love the most about homeschooling? Tell me. Tell me why you continue to do it every day. I love homeschooling the most because of my connection to my kids. Because for those few months that I sent my kid out to kindergarten, I it was anxiety in the morning, trying to get him eat to eat faster than he wanted to. He's a real slow eater like me. That's okay. But he was always hungry. Then he'd have to go to school. And then he'd do his school day and come home and he's exhausted. He's still hungry. And he's more anxious, then we have to just do it again. And I only saw him at his worst. And I only got to be at my worst to try and get him to do all the things he was having to do. And I realized in that little t amount of time that his teacher was getting to see all the best parts of him. And I was like, she doesn't cherish that as much as I do. She was a very good teacher. She was not at all to fault for us bringing him home. It was completely what he needed, not any lack in her. She was a great teacher. and I really am very much of the mind that homeschooling is not the only way. You know, not all parents have the it's a very privileged position that I am able to stay home and educate my children. And this is such a luxury and I love it. And it's also crazy hard. And not everyone's like, I want to do that crazy hard thing. But for me, People are like tend to say, I could never do that. And I'm like, well, I want to do it. I want to do it more than doing the hard thing of sending my kids to school and communicating with their teachers. And it's not like that's like not hard either. Like they're both hard. And I just picked the one I liked better. So it's not like a virtuous, I'm doing this thing that no one can do because I'm so wonderful. I'm like, actually, I just picked. I just chose what I liked. And I think so at, you know. It's easy to get. My way is the best way. Everyone should do it this way, you know. And we just don't know. We just don't know what's right for other families. But I love being connected to my kids. I love it when I'm with my daughter in the kitchen and we're baking and she's learning tons of stuff that I'm not even noticing. And she's just, we're just connecting. Right. And I feel like anytime we're feeling safe, then that's when the learning can open up. Right. Whenever I I heard a homeschool teacher one time talking about when the tears start, then the learning stops. Right. Like you or the child are crying, you just stop pause. and sometimes it's both, right? Sometimes we're both crying. But that if I can create that space where I want them to trust me. I want them to, you know, hey mom, read this book to me. This sound sounds fun. Can you play a game with me? And then I'm just getting to witness all the wonderfulness that is their development. And I'm getting to be there for the ride and and yeah, there for the chores and there for the, you know, yes, you do have to X, Y, and Z, because that's part of life. But I just think all the good things I get to be a part of as part of this journey just so much outweigh the struggle and the difficulty to me. Mm-hmm. Okay, well let's just put an exclamation mark on what you said. I absolutely adore it. I keep saying it in my head. When they feel safe, that's when the learning takes place. Like I love it. That makes me so happy. Beth and I don't Yeah, can I just add one other thought? Yeah, that doesn't always that doesn't always mean that I mean, I guess I w I don't want anyone to hear that and think, everyone's always happy at Bethany's house. And all no, I understand. That doesn't mean that I don't ask them to do hard things and their conversations when Like, yeah, you have to do this chore, or you signed up for this class at co-op. And so you have to do this homework that you don't really want to do, but we're gonna just do it. But I think what I've kind of come to is what is needed to help you do that, right? Like, do you need me to do it with you? Do you need me to break it down into smaller steps so we can just work on one at a time? Like, and so being on their team instead of being like, The taskmaster that like makes them do it away from you. Right. Is that's for me how I how I manage the hard. But then I think what happens on the other side of that hard is then I get to see like my son, my third kiddo, when he he had such a great week and he got so much done. And it was more than he thought he could do. And he was just like, I'm doing so good. And I was like, I know. More importantly, you know, you're feeling good. You don't need me to tell you you're doing good because you can tell. He's like, Yeah, I can't. And so it's those little tiny minutes of reward in between the like, okay, do your chores. Okay, do your homework. Okay, do this, do that. And okay, let's take a break together, or let's calm down and then we'll go back and try again. And whatever the task is, right? Sometimes it's even like I have a couple of kids that struggle to feed themselves. And I'm like, well. Let's go back in the kit kitchen and make a decision. What do you want to eat? You know, you know you're hungry. What sounds the least scary? Well, there's such a difference in something being difficult and being unsafe. You are providing providing such a safe environment for them to do really difficult things. I think. Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful. I love that. Well, Bethany, thank you so much for being. Hate the box education. I I love your experience. I feel like there were so many like wise little one liners in in what you said. I I love it. I'm so grateful that you came on. Yeah, well I just feel honored to be to be asked and so grateful to to be able to share. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for joining us today for this episode. If you would like to see more of this homeschool content, like and subscribe to our channel.