Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 358 - Chasing Curtis Craford

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 358 - Chasing Curtis Craford · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: He doesn't mean ladies and down.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: We're gonna open up one of these uh Peronini prison
• 0:06
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  Speaker 2: beyond measures. I were looking to pull an ultra reary
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  Speaker 2: manga card. Ain't nobody trying to pull the stump the
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  Speaker 2: other day and hit it big on eBay. A real talk, ladies,
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  Speaker 2: I'm looking to pull an ultraary number prison card. It's
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  Speaker 2: more rare compared to other number of cards that has
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  Speaker 2: been pulled the stumb the other day, and go buy
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  Speaker 2: it on YouTube. Hey, real talk o ladies and that
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: one and without further ado, let's hit it big.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Boot jis up.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: The chow chow Bee and.
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: Then show me, then show me chose me, and then
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: then show me set up.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Show Killee and here we go.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: That's right, Joe, what's up everybody? This is episode number
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: three hundred and fifty eight, Yeah, of the Locome podcast
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Chasing Curtis Crayford. Now, the reason I named it this
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: exactly is for those who are fans of the show.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: One of my most popular episodes ever was done many
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: many moons ago, almost ten years now. Called the Balllead
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: of Larry Crayford, in which we kind of went through
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: the whole story, maybe tried to see if he was
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: the person that actually shot Tippet checking out these Ruby
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Oswald's sightings that a lot of people, I'm pretty sure
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: at this point now mistaked Larry Crayford Lee Harvey Oswald
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: at a glance, and then after the fact, you know
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: he kind of look alike. Well, I saw Jack Ruby
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: with Lee Harvey Oswald. Here, he was talking to him. Here,
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: I saw him over there with him. I saw him
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: here with him. But again, this is a lot of
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Jack Ruby and and Larry Crayford type stuff. Now, what's
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: interesting about the Larry Crayford story is he is Joe.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: If you didn't know, I think by a cooney hair,
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: more than Ruth Payne, the most and longest interviewed and
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: questioned witness for the Warrant Commission.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: You are a correct, sir. He was interviewed over three
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: days and it's seventy four pigoes long.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, very extensive, very extensive. Again, this guy was in
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: a position for the months leading up to the assassination
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: and the killing of Oswald to be privy. Excuse me,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: and to be privy and around the Carousel Club and
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: around Jack Ruby. And they figured, well, you know, if
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: this guy's in this position, he may have heard something,
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: he may know something he might tell all on Jack Ruby.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: So they questioned the hell out of this guy because
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: his actions were a little bit suss, as the kids say,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Because yeah, Saturday, November twenty third, Larry Crayford decides to
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: up and high tail it out of Dallas, away from
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Jack Ruby with just the clothes on his back, and
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: proceed to start hitchhiking. Joe hitchhiking. And we'll get more
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: into that as we go along, and the anomalies therewith. Now,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: the interesting thing is during the warrant commission, okay, which
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: kind of was going on simultaneously at the same time
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: as the Jack Ruby trial right in early sixty four.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Of course, Crayford was a big witness in the Jack
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: Ruby trial as well, and was called to testify there.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, Joe Larry Crayford starts spelling his name back
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: to its original spelling after nineteen sixty four, meaning his
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: actual name, his actual, real and true name, folks, is
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: Curtis Crayford cr for d Now, even the Warren commissioned.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: People call him Larry. Now his name is Curtis. Okay,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: I lost you for a second. I thought, no, the
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: fucking thing, oh thing, This is the funny part, all right.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: He's born Curtis Laverne Crayford, not Lawrence Laverne. Larry is
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: short for Lawrence. It's a nickname, right, Larry is not
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: a nickname for Laverne. Okay, it's just not. You can't
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: get there from here. Now, maybe in some alternate universe
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: you could maybe say it's a stretch. Okay. But as
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: you'll see as we go on through here, his family
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: calls him Kurt or Curtis. They don't Larry. So his
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: own family and his own friends call him Kurt or Curtis.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: So here's what happens for some reason, and we'll get
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: into it a little bit more here. Kurtsey decides to
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: start calling himself Larry, and the genius that he is
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: decides to change the spelling of his last name by
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: one letter. Because all throughout the Warrant commission and the
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Jack Ruby trial, he's referred to in any paperwork you see,
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: it's referred to as cr. Far D cray Ford. He's
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: sometimes called Crawford cray Ford. What the actual spelling is
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: cray Ford? Okay, So Joe, why would he change his
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: name to Larry and start calling himself Larry and spell
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: his name different when he gets to Dallas in nineteen
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: sixty three. Now there's one of there's a couple of
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: reasons he may do this. Number one, Uh, he's running
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: away from something uh that's attached to his real name
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: and doesn't want to be found. Or b he's going
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: to be getting into something that he shouldn't be getting
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: into and doesn't want his real name out there.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's only so many possibilities as to why somebody
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: would change their name and spell their last name a
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: little differently. That would be like that'd be like me
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: going by I don't know, Peter Clark with an E
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: on the end.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: Now, I'm a dick, so my nickname could be Peter
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know, but my real name is Robert Wesley Clark.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: You can't get Peter from Wesley, right. So that's the
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: kind of trickery he's doing with his name Joe, which
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense unless unless you're running away from something.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: But we'll get there. I promise, and again after the
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: Jack Ruby trial he changes his name. He starts going
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: back to using the O R D name everything. Hence
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: he's so fucking smart, Joe that guess what. The Garrison
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: investigators can't find him and question him. The HSC and
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: the investigators can't find him or question him, and the
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: ARRB can't find him or questioning.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he kind of disappeared, fell off the map after
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the war.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: He's hiding in planing sight by spelling his fucking name
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: with one different letter. They're searching for Larry Crayford a
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: ar D, not Curtis Craftford.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: F or D.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I know he said that the army misspelled his name,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and since they misspelled it, he kept that going forward.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: I know that's what he said.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: Well, he said a lot of things, and I using
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: the liar many many many, many many many things, many things.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: What makes him more suss than anything?
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but again Joe, he outsmarted him all.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, he didn't never faced any consequences other
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: than a three day warrant commissioned testimony.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and a Jack Ruby trial right hearing whoam snay?
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Oh just bumped it up to be a covert operator.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: She was a covert operator. Okay, yeah, she reaped beautiful
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: and I guess that's a good time to welcome a
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: couple of people in, sir. Yeah, go ahead, Joe, all right, Paul,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: mister Paul Cummings, good evening, miss. Last week was on Vaca.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: We can never forgive you. Paul. You're dead to us.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. I hope you enjoyed it. Uh tiny
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: is here early by four minutes? So or was here
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: early by four minutes? Of course? The double b What up, buddy?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: South to west? Here we go, mister Robert, how are you, sir?
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Let's see, sir, shot a lot. Good evening to our
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: hosts and all present. Yes, thank you, Uh Timothy Bryan, Hello,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: ladies and gents. Hope y'all are doing well.
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: We are, we are.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I can't miss Paul again, or he'll hate me forever.
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: P s.
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  Speaker 3: You don't get on Paul's bedside, Joe. You can know
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: he might have been one of the people that picked
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: Larry Crayford took him to Michigan. Kidding, Paul, I don't think.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: I don't think he's that old.
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  Speaker 3: He's a truck driver though.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Tur and horse, oh oh, and mister Roger our music.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Lee harril.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And uh, let's see anyone else that I happened. No,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I'm sure more will struggle in. But thank you for
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: re upping and for everyone joining us tonight.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: See see all right, So back to Curtis Joe Old
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  Speaker 3: Curtis was born in nineteen and forty one, so at
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: the time of the assassination he was a young newbyle
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: twenty two year old yep, although he looked like a
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: thirty five year old by all accounts, he was actually
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: he was born on March the tenth in fair oh
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: god Fairfield Township of Fairfield, Lenowie, Michigan. His father was
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: Hugh Edward Crayford. He was twenty three when he had
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Young Curtis, and his mother was Alice Irene Roadaball. She
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: was twenty one when she had little Curtis, Little kurt
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: and I don't know much about his well I think
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: we'll touch on his little army excursion here in a
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: little bit. Yeah, but that was about the only other
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  Speaker 3: major thing that happened in his life up until the
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: fact that he married a chick by the name of
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  Speaker 3: Wilma Jean Case on June twenty second nineteen sixty two.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: Now what he didn't know about Wilma She liked to
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  Speaker 3: eat Box Joe. Yes, in case she didn't know that
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: I did.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I have that in a document upcoming.
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  Speaker 3: She was a fan of the Flower if you know
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: what I'm saying.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, she liked women. And of course there's always this
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: speculation that Larry Crayford and Ruby had an intimate relationship.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: And Rob, I'm gonna get to a document. You're going
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: to see the FBI thought so three days after Ruby
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Shotley it's in a document. But before we go, get
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the horn ready.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: Hold on, all right? Sorry, okay, I hit.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: ITAM double B coming in with five gifted memberships, and
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: let's see which skuffoos has got it? Uh, sir shot
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: a lot? Who I just commented. See if you comment
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: you have a better chance of getting gifted a membership
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: is yeah, it does Daniel Plant again, it probably like Tango,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Glenn Rocks and William Kane. So yeah, so you guys
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: will have access us to the last show that we've
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: done every uh Wednesday night, which is available for spooks,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: which would be two nights ago, which, if I say,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Rob was a pretty bang or pretty good show.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: So if you go to our channel, like you're not here,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: but if you go click on our channel and you
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: go to the playlist section, you will see members only
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: videos and it will show you everything that you can
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: access at your different various levels. So even as a spook,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: you'll be able to access a lot of extra shows
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: out there. And damn it, and I'm not I'm not complaining.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: The double B comes through again. Smash that like button,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: please please please let's get it on. Thank you, Brandon,
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: thank you, so the man, the man, you definitely are.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: All right. Back to Curtis's a lesbian wife, Wilma. Now,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: I guess he realized fairly quickly after marrying Wilma that
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: she wasn't a fan of the d They didn't stay
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: married very long, Joe, because in nineteen sixty and four,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: after after I guess breaking up with Annolling or divorcing Wilma,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: he marries Sureley Sureley Elizabeth Vorderstross. All right. They were
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: married in Vancouver, Washington, Washington, on December nineteenth, nineteen sixty four.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: They would go on to have one child.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: That I know of.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: I know that I have other documents to say they
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: had more, but I can only verify the existence of one.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: And her name was jen Jennifer Lynn Crayford, who was
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: born in nineteen sixty nine and sadly died in two
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: thousand and nine, so she was only forty years old. Joe. Wow,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: and this is Curtis's daughter. Now, I've also seen something
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: and we'll touch on it here in a minute as well,
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: that Curtis's wife, Shirley split up with him in nineteen
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: ninety one. I don't know how accurate that is. I
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: don't know if they stayed married, or if they actually
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: got divorced or what, but surely would pass away in
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: two thousand and five. And then Curtis himself, Curtis Laverne Crayford,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: would pass away at the age of seventy in two
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: thy and eleven.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: And I know the question that is going into everybody's
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: mind right about now is did anybody ever find this guy?
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Did anybody ever talk to him? The answer, quite surprisingly.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Is no. No.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: I'm joking, of course, of course it's yes. In the
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: eighties right, Well, it was over a span of time, Joe,
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: there were several contacts made. You see, Curtis old Kurt
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: had two brothers. One was named Edward Dean Crayford and
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: one named Gary Harold Crayford. I damn Old Gary Harold. Well,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: little Gary Harold was born in nineteen and forty seven,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: but he only lived in nineteen fifty four. That means
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: he died when he was seven years old. So that's
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: kind of a tragedy, a family tragedy there, Joe. But
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Edward Dean Crayford lived until twenty sixteen. Actually, now I
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: want to say, maybe Joan Mellon tracked this motherfucker down too.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: I could be wrong. I don't know, not one hundred
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: percent sure. And if she did, she's never made any
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: of her interviews with Larry Crayford public. H Hopefully all
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: that changes since she passed, and maybe a lot of
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: her papers will get put into some special collection somewhere,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: ye digitized, because I'm sure she has a treasure trove
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: documents given how many interviews she did just from one book.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: You know, that's a good point that that would be
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: a really interesting library whenever that happens to visit. And
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I think she was from New York or New Jersey
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: or northeast like close to me. I think she was
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: living here towards the end.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Right probably. I think she was from New Jersey, I
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: think or teaching New Jersey or something. So there was
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: a researcher and I don't know if he's passed or
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: not yet. You're killing me, Brandon, but I love you. Yes,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: the w B is coming through, coming through, Thank you, sir.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: What's a blad?
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, you are the goat.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Now there's a researcher named Peter Whitney who used to
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: write a lot for like the third decade, fourth decade newsletters, right, yeah,
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: never wrote a book, but he was always like one
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: of these go to guys, you know, who seemed to
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: be able to uncover a lot of information, good information.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: One of these guys was he didn't get he didn't care.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: He called anybody up and be like, hey, let's talk,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: or to show up at the doorstep.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Hey, I feel like we would have gotten along with
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: this guy. Yeah, and some of the best ones like
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: didn't you don't have to write a book to be
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: a great researcher, you know, No.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: But I'm saying that's why he's not well known, right,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: you know, he's not that big of a name unless
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: you're a giant third or fourth decade NERD like us. Now,
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Whitney says this Joe, and I'm just gonna hit this
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: first because it does have a little backstory before we
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: get to Dallas. Okay, Okay, He says, I managed to
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: locate Crayford through his father in nineteen eighty nine, and
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: he and wrote to him care of the local post
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: office because I guess they lived in some bumfuck part
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: of Oregon. I'm sure I haven't seen Rocky Queen Colleen
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: here in a while, but she is from Oregon.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Well. One of the confusing things is I think he
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: got married or at some point in the sixties lived
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: in Dallas, Oregon.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: He's also buried in Dallas, Oregon.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: So that's confusing.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: It's a little it gets a little crazy. Yeah, as
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: his father only told me the name of the town
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: where Curtis lived and didn't give him his exact address,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: he says. Not long after writing to him, I received
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: a written reply from his second wife that would be
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: what the fuck with her name? Shirley? Sureley, you must
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: be joking, Laverna.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Shirley, Paula knows, Hey, Paula, how are you?
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: Uh?
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So Shirley wrote back to uh, Peter Whitney, in
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: response to my query as to why Crayford had left
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Dallas so abruptly on November twenty third, nineteen sixty three,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: his wife was quite adamant that Curtis had left Dallas
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: so on November twenty second, the morning before the assassination,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: which I suspect Curtis had always wanted her to believe,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: and that's what Curtis had told her.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: However, Curtis had told the FBI and the Warrant Commission,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: as well as during cross examination at the Ruby trial,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: where he testified as a character witness for Ruby, that
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: he had left Dallas around noon on November twenty third,
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three. Okay, so there's lie number one. You
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: know you're starting off telling your telling your second wife.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Oh babe, I got caught up in all that bullshit
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: down there. But don't worry. I left the morning before
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: the assassination. I wasn't even around for it. I was
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: already hitchhiking. I had a good sense to get the
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: hell out of Dallas for some reason, and I was right.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: But that was just a story, he says in my
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: written reply. I pointed this out, but possibly because she
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: had been deceived by her husband, never wrote back to
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: me again, although I did speak to her on several
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: occasions throughout the nineties, both before and after she split
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: up with Curtis in nineteen ninety one. When I finally
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: visited Crayford in December of two thousand and one, he
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: remained adamant that he left on the day of the assassination. However,
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: after showing him his own statements, he then reluctantly agreed
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: that he had been mistaken. It would appear that Curtis
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: also didn't want me to think that there was any
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: possibility that he had any first hand information about the assassination,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: or Tippett's murder, or Ruby's decision to kill Oswald one
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: or more, which might have prompted him to abruptly quit
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: his day job while Ruby was back at his apartment
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: in Oak Cliff and hitchhike all the way to northern
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Michigan with only seven dollars in his pocket. And I
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: got one hand in my pocket and the other one
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: smoking a cigarette. In the letter I received from Crayford's wife,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: she also mentioned that in nineteen sixty five, Earl Ruby,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: that's Jack Ruby's brother had phoned Curtis from Detroit, having
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: met him at his brother's trial the year before. Now,
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Earl ran a commercial dry cleaning business in the Cobo
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: area of Detroit Detroye as it's more commonly known in French,
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: and when he learned that Curtis was unemployed, Earle offered
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: him a job, which Curtis cheerfully accepted. However, after working
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: there for several months, he was fired for stealing clothes
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: from the laundrymat that he was working at, allegedly all panties,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: granny panties. You think he had a sniffing problem, Joe,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: He was a weird guy, that's for sure.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Although Curtis claims they were for his pregnant wife. You
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: thought I was kidding about the panties, didn't you.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: I almost did, But that kind of makes sense, like, Oh,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: my wife's getting bigger, maybe I need to steal some
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: pennies of the larger sits.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Spoiler alert, I wasn't. Yeah, that's just one weird aspect
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: to the story. It gets way weirder, trust me. Afterwards,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Crayford worked for a while at an oil company, just
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: long enough to buy a car at which point he
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: and his wife then hopped in the car and drove
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: back to Oregon, where they have lived ever since. He
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: later concluded the Earl's real reason for hiring was to
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: find out what he knew about his brother's activities in Dallas,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: possibly because Jack's lawyers were appealing his conviction, which was successful,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: although Ruby died before his new trial could begin in
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Wichita Falls, Texas in nineteen sixty seven. I also learned
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: from Curtis that in nineteen and eighty he and his
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: wife along with two of their four children. Okay, now
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I only could find definitely one that's Jennifer. He's telling
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: this guy that he had four children. I don't know
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: what the truth is, doesn't matter who knows, but he
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: had had two of his four children and his wife
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: in the car. They were involved in a serious car
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: accident in nineteen eighty calls by faulty steering, even though
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: the vehicle was quite new. Curtis was convinced that someone
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: had tampered with the steering mechanisms, which has made him
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: fearful for his safety ever since. After his wife read
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: contract on a Marria America by David Scheim, which I
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: had recommended she too seem suspicious of the accident. I
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: also recall when I was speaking to Crayford in the
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: late nineties on the phone, Apparently my voice was fading
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: it out, which caused Curtis to believe that either my
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: or his line was tapped.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Paranoid much, you think.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: During my initial interview with Crayford at a bar in
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: the small town where he lives in a rural area
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: of Oregon, it's a hard word, yeah, He revealed to
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: me that he had been a hit man in the
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: early sixties in San Francisco prior to going to Dallas.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: While living there, he got involved with the granddaughter of
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: a local Dawn, and unfortunately for Crayford, he knocked her up. However,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: in exchange for getting the fuck out of town and
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: promising never to come back again, Curtis was spared the
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: usual harsh treatment associated with organized crime and punishment. Although
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: I was somewhat skeptical of Crayford's claim, his older brother,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: whom I later spoke to by phone, confirmed what Curtis
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: had just revealed to me. Earlier. After dropping out of
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: high school in Dallas, Oregon, Joe in nineteen fifty eight,
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: he joined the Army, following in the footsteps of his brother.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: His older brother, who was by then a sergeant sound
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: familiar folks. In November in nineteen fifty nine, he was
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: abruptly released, however, after serving most of his fourteen months
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: in West Germany, where he may have been exposed to
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: General Walker's anti communist propaganda bullshit because of a medical
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: problem of some sort. Despite quote having messed up, as
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: he put it to me, he claims to have been
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: selected for several coburt missions as a demolitions expert, which
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: took him over the Berlin Wall as well as in
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: the Southeast Asia. He couldn't remember it was either Laos
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: or Vietnam. So he's in the Army for a cup
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: of coffee a year, and he's pulling clandestine missions over
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: the Berlin Wall into East Germany and in the jungles
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: of Laos, and then all of a sudden they just
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: decided to give him. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: He is a pathological liar, and at this point in
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: the nineties he's just going off. He's making a lot
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: of things up in my opinion at this point.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he even showed me a scar on his leg.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Joe.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: He treated as a badge of honor. He said he
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: got in on one of those operations, probably going over
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: one of the walls. Crayford was vague about whom he
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: was working for, but emphasized to me that there would
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: be no written records related to his covert operations. Yes,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: of course, I'm saying, Joe.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always the convenient thing to say. There's no
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: documents because it was so secret.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Although I didn't think to ask him, Curtis likely bragged
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: about his intelligence experience while working for Ruby. A woman
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: named Beverly Oliver, who was only seventeen in nineteen sixty
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: sixty three, sang at the Colony nightclub and hung out
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: at the nearby carousel. Sometimes years later, after her first
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: husband had been gunned down in a shootout with the
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: Texas Rangers. She claimed to have been introduced to Lee
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: by Jack Ruby a few weeks before the assassination. It's
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: very likely that she was introduced to Larry and not Lee.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I wrote to Beverly in this regard, having met her
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: at nineteen ninety six Sudbury, Ontario JF conference. I bet
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: that was a hot bed of activity. But in her reply,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: she confused Crayford with Quirky Crayford, another ced associate of Ruby's,
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: and didn't remember having met Ruby's handyman Larry. However, her
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: unflattering description of him is clearly much more consistent with
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: Crayford than of Oswald. And again, I don't believe anything
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Beverly Oliver says when it comes to either her movie,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: her alleged movie, or her meeting Lee Harvey Oswald and
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: all that bullshit. Now, again, there was a lot of
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: impersonations of Oswald doing crazy weird shit like shooting at
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: somebody else's target at a rifle range, taking taking a
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: new car for a spin, saying he's gonna come into
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: some money, and driving like a fucking maniac. None of
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: they sound like Lee Harvey Oswald. Definitely sound like somebody
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald. But why just to make this
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: guy more memorable after the bad thing happens, you know
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: what I mean? Maybe?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe?
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: And there was also an unemployment counselor in Dallas named
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: Laura Kittrelle, who, in the course of her own investigation,
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: came across the photos of Crayford and the Warrent commissioned
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: volumes and a lengthy manuscript written in sixty six and
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: later given to the HSCA. She recalled in an interview
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: with Gayton Phonsie that Oswald in quotes, appeared for a
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: third interview in October, late October sixty three. Now this
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: is after he's already working in the school Bok Depository, okay.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: And she says that Oswald and quotes showed up wearing
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: a black back leather motorcycle jacket, same as the last
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: time he had been in. Unlike her original client, however,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: whom she stated was quote neat as a pen, quote,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: Oswald was slouchy, kind of unkempt, and even very unmilitary looking.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: He had a peculiar way of laughing and talking so
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: that people all over the room could hear him. This
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: does not sound like our Lee Harvey Oswald, our little
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: quiet mouse, right. Kittrell later realized that this third interview
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: could not have been with Oswald, as records indicated that
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: he was already working at the school but Depository. As
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: I just pointed out, in fact, there's no evidence that
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Oswald visited the Texas Employment Commission in nineteen sixty three
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: at all. Joe, Woah, there you go, got you in
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: your pipe and smoke it.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I'd like to that would good?
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Coatrell later found Crayford's application form in an in an
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: in in and let's try that again in an in
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: active file. Although he told me he was quite certain
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: that he had never visited the Texas and Employment Commission.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: Curtis also recalled that he avoided laughing in public because
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: he was mything, mything in front teeth, Joe, and it
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: made himself conscious.
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: Mm hmmm.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Heard visit Oswald and quotes informed Contrell that he had
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: been sent back by the Claims office as he had
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: just become a member of the Teamsters union, hoping to
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: get a union job as a forkliff driver, as he
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: had previously driven one while working in a New Orleans warehouse.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah okay. However, Oswald did not produce a union card
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: to verify said membership, claiming that it hadn't been sent
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: to meet yet. It's in the mail, Joe, It's in
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: the mail. It's coming.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I swear the aged old excuse. I've used it before too.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: So Katrell wondered if he could even afford the initiation fees,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: knowing that he had a pregnant wife and young daughter.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: To support, it would appear from the evidence that it
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: was not Oswald who visited the employment office, especially that
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: Oswald did not wear a black leather motorcycle jacket. Instead,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: it was likely someone very familiar with Oswald's background, suggesting
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: the person was pretending to be Oswald to once again
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: make him look unstable. Even though Katrell stated in her
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: manuscript that the impostor might have been Craford, by the
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: time she was interviewed by Gayton Phonsie in nineteen seventy
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: eight at her home in Dallas, she must have decided
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: not to mention Crayford, possibly expecting Phonsie to ask her
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: about her suspicions. The lengthy summary of Phonsie's interview makes
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: no reference to Crayford, nor does his notes, which he
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: kindly sent me along with the following comment and an email.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: I recalled Kittrell and remember coming away from the interview
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: with her thinking she went way up and way down
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: on the scale of validity. But I had a tough
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: time figuring what was up or down, and I don't
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: recall anything about Crayford, So this whole thing is a mess.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: I seen Oswald imposter. Could he have been the murderer
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: of JD. Tippett. Could he have been a grassy nose shooter?
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: Could he have been in the sixth floor of the
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: book Depository? I don't know.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard that one.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: Somebody looked like Oswald? Joe? Could he be prayer Man?
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: All this and more? No So mc Crayford first came
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: to Dallas. And here's where Joe will pick up the story.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: He stayed at the YMCA. Joe, interestingly enough, the same
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: place Lee Harvey Oswald stayed at h and also the
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: same hotel that Lawrence Hall, Lawrence Howard and Seymour stayed at,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: or the YMCA. They all stayed at the YMCA. And oh,
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: by the way, Jack Ruby went to the YMCA all
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: the time to go swimming and use their pool almost
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: on a daily basis.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: All right, he was a big swimmer, right, Yeah, it
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: works all the muscles wrong, gotta stay save Joe works
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: all muscle groups.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Ladies love it.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: So we get up to there, and supposedly the story
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: is that Ruby and Counter there's Crayford at the Texas
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: State Fair and Craford is working at an exhibit there,
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: and him and Jack Ruby get to talking, and Crayford
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: kind of tells him, you know, he's down on his
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: luck and he doesn't have a place to live. He
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: don't have any money this ship job, you know, so
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: Ruby offers him a place to stay in exchange for
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: his services. Yeah, whatever that may be, Yes, whatever that entails.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: I don't even want to begin to guess, but Joe will.
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: So Joe the FBI will guess too.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just gonna comment on a couple comments. Haven't
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: heard Carmine in a long time. Well, sir, shot a lot.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: You were in luck because we have some plans up
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: coming and they involve Carline.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah they do, and yeah you will and yeah it's
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: gonna be awesome.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, ye tiny. Does Crayford have a military record, Yes,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: army was I think it was like fourteen months. And
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: he did say I believe in the nineties that he
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: was a sniper. But there is no.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: There's no way you're in the army for a year
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: and you're a sniper and you're pulling covert ops like this,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: there's no way.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: There's no records of that. Yeah, and there's no records
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: that he was possibly under the orders of General Walker
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: either just I mean, there's no proof of it, but
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: you never know. And Rob, let me just do one thing.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: That's the reesting thing. Is he was there at the
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: same time as General Walker.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, But of course, like everyone kind of conflates
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: that as right, I didn't even know who General Walker
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: was at the time.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, we have no idea he would have known
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: who General Walker was. I mean, he commanding the troops
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: in West Germany. If he stays in there, I'm sure
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: he knew who the fuck General Walker was.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: He could have known the name. I'm just saying, who knows, Rob,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: give me like ten seconds, I'm fixing my lighting.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: Okay, oh lord, oh Perry Russo over there. I got
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: to fix his lighting. Yet, I don't know if his records,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: his UAOMIE records are out there, if it was part
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: of the cash that got destroyed you back in the
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: sixties or seventies whenever that place caught on fire. So
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: I don't know if his actual military records still exist.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I I searched for them, not like super hard, but
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't find them. And the article we were going
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: to talk about in a little bit does not reference them,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: so I do not think they are. Example, if you
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: could find them, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: If anybody has them. It's in the Warrant Commission documents.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: But again, it's a lot to probably find him in there.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Sally says, Joseph, do you have an eleven on you volume?
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Could you with turning up a bit? Do I sound
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: low Rob.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: A little bit?
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: All right?
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: Either that or Sally's just getting deaf over there.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: She did say that last time. I'm at ninety two.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to ninety six. We'll see. Hopefully that's
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: a little better.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Someday Joe might buy a microphone, Sally, we wanted to
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: keep worrying about this shit.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: No, we have one. We all know the story of Rob.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Come on, it's not a real one, Joe, it's a
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: real one. It's not a real one.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: So let me get into the before Rob. I start
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: my PowerPoint. Look what your boy made this morning?
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: Oh look at your boy fucked up this morning?
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: What do you mean? I have two different Silk City
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Hot sauces King's Karma, which, by the way, this is
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: the second bottle to be finished. In like the last month.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Erica loves it. It's great, but I like a little
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: diversity in my hot sauce. So I opened somewhere in
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Vermont and added both of them on here with my
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: toasted light multi grain muffin and two eggs.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Over media, get the fuck out of here with your
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: multi grain moving You're only giving people twenty percent off
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: of using the code gum or it's actually.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Twenty twenty percent off. My mistake.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: That's a big mistake, Joe, that's a mistake.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Do you get double percentage off? And you can see
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: I have on the left side here a nice reserve
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: and I want to thank Jeff for that and definitely
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: get in your order to Silk City. Link is in
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: the description. And Rob, I know we talked about Lancer,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: but since it was announced today, it is the only
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: time I'm going to mention it on the show. I
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: have decided, in all my hypocrisy, to actually go to
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Lancer this year because friends Matt Crumpton and Jeff Crudell
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: asked me to speak on a podcast panel. We're going
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: to talk about the JFK podcast arena, which should be interesting,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: and yeah, we have some fun plans for merch that
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: I plan on wearing at Lancer might wear it and
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Mike tell you, yeah, I'll be spilling the tea. But
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: we will be doing the live show on that Friday,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: the twenty first. I'll do it for my hotel. Rob
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: and I have something really interesting we are working on
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: and researching for that for that week, So I'll be
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: leaving the conference early and hanging out with you find people.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: And even Paula said she might come and give you
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: another ride from the airport.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: Well that's it, Paul's own risk.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, let's get into it. The HSCA has an
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: interesting Ruby timeline that goes back years, but I'm going
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: to focus on the Larry Crayford section. And the first
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: time Larry Crayford shows up in the Ruby timeline is
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: on March tenth, nineteen sixty three. Larry Crayford, who was
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: living at the Carrolsel Club on November twenty second, sixty three,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: married a Dallas girl on June sixteenth, nineteen sixty two,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: like you mentioned earlier, Rob, but has been separated from
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: her for some time. He claims that she was a lesbian.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: She supposedly gave birth to a child in Dallas. But
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: Crayford does not think the child is hers. He rejoined
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: her on March fourteenth, nineteen sixty three. On March fourteenth,
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Real quick, Joe yep.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: That paragraph mentions that Larry was living in the Carosel Club.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: Who was the stripper that Ruby went to get the
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: money order for before he shot Oswhall? Was that Little Lynn?
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: Okay? Little Lynn was interviewed at some point, and she
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: claims that Larry Crayford had an apartment beside the Carousel
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Club that he lived in that he didn't actually live in,
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: like the broom closet of the fucking Carousel Club, like
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: that there was a separate apartment.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there definitely was a separate apartment where kind of
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Ruby kept his dogs. But uh, I might go through
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: some of that testimony later, Rob, I think it might
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: be a little misinterpreted the way it goes. I want
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on it because because I was
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: confused on it. But she says that he was going
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: to live there, but like Ruby was kicking him out
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: of the actual carol cl Club because things were missing,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: and that he was going to live there. But based
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: on some of the wording, it doesn't seem like he
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: actually ever was. But we'll see. Larry Crayford comes to
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: stay with his in laws March fourteen sixty three. John
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Case trailer at La Tatte Trailer Court. Craford rens a trailer.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Craford can drive.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: Good for Cratford likes a good drug.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: March twenty first, nineteen sixty three. A week later, Crayford
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: starts to work for Ablon Poultry in Dallas. This will
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: come this will come back. In some of his testimony,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: We're going to read Albon Poultry in Dallas. Mayor Albon
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: owns the Chateau nightclub. He was an associate of Ruby
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: and Joe Bonds during fifty five fifty seven. Interesting. Interesting,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Fast forward to June nineteen sixty three. You have Crayford
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: had rejoined his family in Dallas in March. I think
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: that's Dallas, Oregon, I'm not sure. Moves his family from
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Dallas to Port Angelus, Washington. A month after that. Again,
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: according to the HSCA timeline, August sixty three, Larry Crayford
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: starts to work for a carnival September. Month after that,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Crayford comes to the State Fair Midway with a carnival
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: with the Carnival. When he is fired, Deek Miles gives
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: him a job with quote how Hollywood Makes Movies, which
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Ruby was an investor of this, this little carnival act,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: because we'll get there. But he invested in a twister
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: board that was used in this election. Ruby meets Crayford
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: at the How Hollywood Makes Movies. When the show folds,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Ruby lets Crayford stay at the Carousel Club. We're going
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: to October fifth, Deek Miles of the State Fair Show
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: hires Larry Crayford after Crayford was fired from another State
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Fair show. One night, Crayford had several teeth knocked out
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: in a fight, so this is how he lost his teeth.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. Miles lost contact with Crayford. After How
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Hollywood Makes Movies closed. Between October fifteenth and fifteenth, Miles
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: and some of the How Hollywood Makes Movies cast people
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: went to the Carousel Club in the late evenings from
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: seven to ten. Ruby visited the How Hollywood Made Movies.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: I can't say that that many times, three to five
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: times for one or two hours during the day by himself.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: This is October fifth. October seventh, Ruby meets Crayford at
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: the State Fair in Texas allegedly October seventh, eleventh, I mean,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Ruby meets Crayford in Dallas, probably at the Carounsel Club.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: October sixteenth. Larry Crayford gets in a fight again between
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: midnight Tuesday and two am Wednesday with Bull, who had
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: worked with Crayford at the Memphis Fair. Craford gets some
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: teeth knocked out and the police are called more teeth
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: knocked out? Wait? Is that twice?
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: No same thing?
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my documents said he was last before he got
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: to Dallas. He was working in Memphis at a carnival
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: and went left abruptly to go to Dallas. And I
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: guess Bull chases motherfucker to Dallas for some reason and
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: Larry Larry slept, his slept his girl or something. Yeah,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: Pool got in his car and chased his dude Dallas,
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: punched him right in the fucking tea, knocked a munch
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: of them out.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: Interesting, and we're going to read something about allegedly how
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Crayford got from I think it's Memphis to Dallas. October twentieth,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three. Crayford was building a cloak room. Is
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: that a coach room has to be Yeah, yeah, at
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: the Carousel Club, possibly using the lumber from the defunct
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: State Fair Show How Hollywood Makes movies. Larry October twenty first.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Next day, Larry Crayford met Ruby at the State Fairgrounds
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: in the afternoon in regard to business property in Dallas.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: He made all is out of the unsold twist boards.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what can we use this for? Well, we need
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: a new cool room. Uh Crayford, this is November, and
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I guess it's October thirty first and November first. Crayford,
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: who worked for Ruby between October and November sixty three,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: said that Andrew Armstrong told him that he had worked
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: for Ruby for nine years. This is it just tells
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: you how throw this timeline is. Rob breck Wall calls
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: bottoms up performer Eddie Parker and fort Worth. Ruby drives
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: his sister Eva Grant to look at the outside of
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: the property that Jack is interested in buying for a
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: new club. So this is interesting. Ruby in debt, as
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: we know behind with the irs, is allegedly looking to
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: buy a new club land for Ris Joe.
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: You didn't know that, of course, Yeah, I mean I'm
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: pointing it out.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, November one, sixty three, is I guess the official
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: day Crayford started.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: On one and by another one and opened it up
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: and starts fish.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or use your sister Eva to buy it, or.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Your bar man, Larry Crayford. Yeah, he's the youngest. Credit
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: is not fucked up yet.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: But could you trust someone you just met at a
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: carnival with that? We'll get there.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: I'm sure really threatened his life if you ever double
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: crossed him.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: November one or fourth, a list of names is left
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: at the graphics studio by Crayford unintentionally while he is
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: ordering or picking up some printing. So I'm going to
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: fast forward a little bit to the after the assassination
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: and what we'll get into some of what was happening
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: on the twenty night of the twenty second and the
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: morning of the twenty third a little while. But this
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: is an FBI urgent teletype November twenty seven, sixty three,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: which would have been Wednesday, right Wednesday after Ruby shot Lee.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: The investigation Dallas has determined that Curtis Larry Crayford was
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: employed by Jack Ruby, killer of the Harvey Oswalt, from
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: sometime in early October sixty three until Saturday, November twenty three,
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: last employees of the Carousel Club formerly operated by Jack
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Ruby made available letter addressed to Crayford. So this is
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: how they found him, Rob. They found a letter from
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: his sister up in rural Michigan to Crayford, and they
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: tracked his that return address. We'll get there in a second.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: That's where he was going they did.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: They were just checking. Allegedly, you could if you think
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: differently after reading this, you could let me know the
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Detroit office. So again this is from you know, Special
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Agent in charge Dallas to special Detroit, Michigan to Detroit
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Office through the holder box of three zero three Harrison,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Michigan should locate Gail in an effort to ascertain the
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: whereabouts of Larry Crayford immediately. When Crayford is located, he
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: should be questioned in detail concerning his association in the
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Dallas area with Jack Ruby, the identity of individuals having
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: contact with Ruby during the time Crayford knew him. She determined.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: In addition, Robert Patterson aka Bob Patterson, operator of the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Contracts Electronics Company, Small TV and Radio repair Shop, believe
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: that Lee Harvey Oswalt was with Jack Ruby at his
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Patterson's place of business approximately three weeks ago. Again, this
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: is a possible Crayford sighting that they thought was Oswald.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: When Ruby and his companion were at the electronic shop,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: Ruby and or crayferb recorded in a notebook the names
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: of one or both of the partners and the company
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: so that Ruby could send them permanent passes to the
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Carousel Club. Investigation conducted by OC indicates that Larry Crayford
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: was probably the individual with Jack Ruby at the Contract's
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: electronics shop rather than Lee Harvey Oswald. When Crayford is located,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: several good color photographs, both close up and full length
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: should be secured and forwarded to the Dallas division to
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: show to the partners and employees of the Contracts Electronics
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Company to ascertain if Crayford was in fact with Jack Ruby.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Eva Grant says she was with them twenty second in
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: the morning of the twenty third. For Info Detroit. The
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Borough has instructed the detailed chronology of Ruby's activities for
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: period immediately preceding Oswalt. Killing of Oswalt must be determined
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: obtain all information Crayford can furnish pertinent. This is where
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: it gets interesting. Rob various sources have reported Jack Ruby
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: has homosexual tendencies. Extreme close relationship with Larry Crayford on
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: such limited acquaintanceship may be thus explained. Crayford allegedly left
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: Dallas sometimes Saturday, November twenty third, whereabouts unknown to Dallas.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: So interesting that various sources three days after Ruby shoots
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Lee have said this and that's maybe why he got
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: a close relationship with Crayford on you know, within like
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: a month.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: So this was sent on the twenty seventh and rob
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: one day later to Director Jayegahova and Special Agent in
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: charge Dallas from Detroit. We have found skufus of Crayford.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: He was located this date in rural area on north
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: end of northern Michigan Anturnam Country, and he met with
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: Jack Ruby. But this so they then interview him on
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: the same day, right, so one day after they they
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: send out that teletype saying find Crayford. FBI is interviewing
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: him one day later. Now it says the twenty ninth year,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: but it was conducted on the twenty eighth and dictated
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: on the twenty ninth. Mister Curtis Laverne Crayford, also known
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: as Curtis Laverne Crawford, Larry cl and Smokey, was located
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: at the cabin of Roy Parks in rural Antrim County, Michigan.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: He was visiting his sister. This individual volunteer at the
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: following information. He was born in Michigan on March tenth,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, where he went through this The family
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: were fruit harvest people. In September fifty eight, he enlisted
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: in the United States Army and served until November nineteen
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: fifty nine, when he was given a general discharge under
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: honorable conditions. So from what I read, Rob, this was
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: not an honorable discharge. But this wasn't a dishonorable discharge.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: It was a discharge under honorable conditions.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: Right, So like a medical They probably got rid of
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: him for some medical reason. And then.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: You know, well, uh, it's rumored that he was being
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: a little handsy with the boys, you know what I mean.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well it's rumored alleged. And we'll get into
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: what he was arrested for later in a couple of slides.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: Uh, and it's it's all right now.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: It might be transporting a minor across state lines. Yeah,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: and I don't know what kind of minor it was,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: if it was a girl, or we do know.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: Just everybody has some kind of feasibility of this trend.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: That the FBI tracked this motherfucker down in a day. Okay,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: if you're driving now in the year twenty twenty five,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: on beautifully flat interstate highways, one could make it from Dallas,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Texas to northern Michigan in nineteen hours, Joe, NonStop.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: Now, I'm sure as cars were shittier and roads were
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: shittier in nineteen sixty three that the trip probably took
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: a little longer than that. I'm going to say at
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: least add four to six hours to that nineteen hours. Yes,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: your upwards around twenty five hours trip NonStop.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: That's a fair assumption.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: Now, according to Crayford, he had many rides. Okay, it
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: wasn't just one person that took him from Dallas to
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: northern Michigan. He had you know, he was hitchhiking. Yes,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: And I know times are different and people would not
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: hesitate to pick up, you know, toothless strangers in nineteen
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: sixty three, uh, shady looking toothless strangers.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: With seven dollars in their pocket.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, can you pay? Can you give me some gas?
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: But no?
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: Oh? Fuck? All right, okay, I guess. Well, so to
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: put that into perspective, this trip would have taken twenty
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: five hours non stop. Now, I'm sure there was some stops,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: of course, I'm sure there was times where he didn't
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: have a ride and he was just walking with his
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: thumb out, hitchhiking, you know, probably some couple hours of that.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: And I believe he even says that he was stuck
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: around the Chicago area for extended period of time before
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: finding a ride, you know, to get to Michigan. Or
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: they went to scenic route around Chicago. There was something
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: about Chicago that I remember.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, we'll get there. He said he took
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: four or five rides to detour Chicago, which makes you
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: think why he's making the effort to say he wasn't
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: in Chicago.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: Right, And remember, folks, Jack Ruby is from Chicago, Yes,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: and all of his Mafia OsO friends are in Chicago.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, And again, this is a thirteen hundred and twenty
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: mile trip. We're not talking five or six hundred miles.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: This is one thousand, three hundred and twenty some miles roughly,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: that's a lot for the FBI to be able to
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: say the next day we got him. That's crazy. Well,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: pray continue to I just wanted to point that, Yeah,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of hours and a lot of miles
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: for a Yeah, it's taking Yeah, and the.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: War Commission and the article we're going to read coming up.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Hammers down on the inconsistencies of his story on his
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: journey back to Michigan. Here, let's see, so he first
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: went to Dallas in March nineteen sixty three to assent
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: to attempt a reconciliation with his wife, but finally they
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: separated in June sixty three as his wife was a lesbian.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: This is written in the FBI reports when they found
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: him in Michigan, which I thought was funny, and we're
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: going to get even funnier here, Rob. During August sixty
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: three he started to work with a carnival and followed
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: this work, which accounted for his being at the Texas
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: State Fair in Dallas, Texas on our about October fifteenth,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: which is kind of the later estimate. Allegedly he was
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: there by October fifth he joined a carnival which was
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: named how Holly What makes movies? This was run by
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: a Bob Craven of Hollywood, California, and he performed the
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: duties of a roust about.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: Step right up, folks, step right up to hell. Hollywood
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: makes movies. You'll see all kinds of crazy stuff like
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: how they hold a light and now they run the camera,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: and how we staged fake fights.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: He lived in a tent on the fair grounds and
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: stayed with this show and another show, which was Rock
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: and Roll Outfit, until the fair closed on approximate October
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: thirty sixty three, which, of course, according to the timeline
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: from the HCI, he started working for Ruby at about
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: November one, although he was building the closets way before then.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: When we're talking like pre beetles, So we're looking fast, Domino,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: Come on, baby, let's do the twist. That's right. Had
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: twitchboards step on. They kind of looked like a They
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: kind of looked like a dodgeball with a platform around
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: the edges of it. And you would have to balance
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: yourself on this twist board and do the twist on
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: this board, Joe and not fall over. Wow, that was trick.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: That's crazy. Uh, we're gonna We're gonna get this description
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: right now. During the time it was employed with How
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: Hollywood Makes Movies. He ascertained that Jack Ruby had approximately
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty dollars invested and honor. About October
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: twenty first, sixty three, at closing time. He was introduced
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: to Ruby by A Deep Miles, another one of the backers,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: saw Ruby two or three times during the Texas State Fair,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: as Ruby would check on the progress of the show.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: When the fair closed at about the end of October
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: sixty three, Ruby hired him to tear down the stage
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: and take it to the Carousel Club there we go
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: in Dallas, Texas. He worked with a man claws it
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: out of it. Oh, whoa, I'm just catching this rob
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: He worked with a man named Howard. Oh no, uh
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: oh oh oh. Do we have Joe and Needy's involvement?
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: No, because it says right after that a negro.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: I know, I was trying to just tease everyone.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: Was rather dark. Yeah, a black guy or not?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you never know. You never know who had been
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: employed by Ruby for approximately eighteen years. I know if
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: you talking about Anthony Armstrong there. But after completing this job,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: Ruby asked him to stay at the club and work
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: for Broom and Board. He had the room in front
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: of Ruby's office. This would be approximately November one, nineteen
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: sixty three. His job at the Carousel Club consisted of
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: being a handyman, cleanup man, part time bartender, and also
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: answering the telephone. It was his duty to take down
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: names and addresses of people calling to the club for
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: Ruby now Rob They and the Warrant Commission. Those three
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: days they grilled him, went through every name in Ruby's
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: address book and asked him if they call yeah. Ruby
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: ran almost and add every day in the local paper
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: for waitresses and performers. He had also financial interest in
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: a twist board company at Fort Worth, Texas. Telephone calls
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: in a number of twenty to forty would be received daily,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: and these calls were placed in the stenographer's notebook, which
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: he kept on Ruby's desk. The only odd incident concerning
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: these calls was that about three or four times a day,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: three or four times a day during the time he
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: was at the club, a call would come in for
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: the come in and the man would ask for mister
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: Ruby if mister Ruby was there. If mister Ruby was
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: not there, the man refused to leave his name, and
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: on every occasion during this period of time, it was
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: the same person who called. He brought this to Ruby's
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: attention on numerous occasions, and Ruby told him to forget
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: Forget about it, forget about it.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: Crayford would stay at the club and eat his meals
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: at the eat Well cafe and at the drug store
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: across the street from the club. Money for these meals
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: was taken from the cash register. Ruby also purchased his
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: clothes from Goodwill store and gave him spending money. So
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: he gave him clothes spending money. Hey, here's the cast register.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: If you need food.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: To the good Will son Here here's a dollar, and
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: buy yourself some new trousers. Yeah, sorry, I want to
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: mess on those.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: On November twenty seventh, second nineteen sixty three, he said
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: he was awakened by Andy Armstrong, the bartender, at eleven
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: thirty am, by the way of telephone. He then dropped
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: back to sleep, and shortly after noon Andy came to
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: the club personally woke him up and stated that the
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: president had been shot. He had not heard from Ruby
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: previously that date, and at about one thirty pm Ruby
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: came into the club and said the club would be
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: closed that night and the entire weekend. He told Andy
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: to notify the personnel and thereafter call the paper and
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: placed an ad to that effect. Crayford said that he
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: was much surprised by this action, as the club could
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: not financially stand to be closed, and it was strictly
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: his opinion that Ruby did this as a gesture to
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: make goodwill on behalf of the public.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: And there is some discrepancies here, folks about when Andrew
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: Armstrong woke Crayford up right, because allegedly Crayford was an
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: early riser. Joe, Yes, like this motherfucker didn't sleep until noon, right,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: he was normally up by seven or eight o'clock in
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: the morning, you know, or else I have to hear
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: shit about from Ruby.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, they kind of prepped the club in the morning,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: And he he also said that normally Andrew Armstrong didn't
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: get there that early.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: No one to one is what Andrew Armstrong said. He
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: worked on one am ish.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of fukery with this timeline. You know,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: the day of the assassination sounds like somebody's covering for somebody,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, yeah, putting them at the club,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: you know, at the time of the assassination.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to think like Andrew Armstrong, the
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: African American worker that was in the employee of Ruby,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: was very I mean, Ruby trusted.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: Him a lot, a lot as far as you're throwing.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: I mean that he had him like the safe, you know,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: the he had answers to the safe, I believe, and
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: to the cash register. It wouldn't be I could see
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: them covering for Ruby and being loyal at this point.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: So yeah, mister Ruby, I didn't see nothing. I see nothing.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: You tell me I was Okay, I was he I
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: woke him up then, uh, whatever you say, boss.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think that's a plausible situation. So uh.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: Finishing on this FBI interview of eleven twenty eight of
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: Larry Crayford, Ruby left the carousel at about three thirty PM,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: being described by Crayford as pretty well shaken up. They
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: knew this is this Friday, They knew at that time
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: there was an arrest of a suspect, but he could
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: not recall the name of any person being mentioned. However,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: the name of Tibbets J. D. Dibbits, the policeman was mentioned,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: and Ruby said he was acquainted with him. Upon leaving,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: Ruby was what Crayford termed being emotionally disturbed. He told
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: Crayford to call Missus Grant's home, his sister Eva Grant,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: before he went to dinner, and upon his return. This
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: was not an ordinary request and Crayford had no knowledge
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: of Ruby's reason. Interesting, so was Ruby expecting to get
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: popped at this dinner like Joe Peshe in Goodfellas, you
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: know you're gonna get made And all of.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: A sudden he was planning on trying to shoot Oswald
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: that night at the police station, but either he could
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: never get close enough or a good shot or what
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: or pussy down or whatever the case may be.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: All right, yeah, I mean he was. He could have,
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: of course gone to dinner before the midnight press conference.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a good point. Good point.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: Every once in a while.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: Ruby then came back to the club or called Crayford
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: at about seven point thirty that evening. He did not
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: discuss the assassination. He did not mention not the police
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: being at the police department because he wasn't there yet,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: I don't think, or anything else. He just wanted to
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: check in regards to telephone calls. He did not see
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Ruby again until the next day after being dropped off
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: at the club. This is like later early Saturday morning,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: like in the wee hours. Right after being dropped off
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: at the club, called Ruby at eight am at Ruby's apartment.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: This is what Crayford's excuses for bailing. He called Ruby
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: at Ruby's apartment and told Ruby that they needed food
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: for the three Doctions dogs that were kept at the club.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: Crayford said that Ruby berated him for waking him up,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: and then decided to pack up and leave the club
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: as he did not want to take any other verbal abuse.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: He did not say anything to anyone about leaving and
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: just packed his clothing, left the club at about noon
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: and started hitchhiking north. He said at no time Ruby
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: ever demonstrate any homo sexual tendencies, and that he specifically
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: recalled on one occasion an individual who was a female impersonator.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: I think that means trans made a request for employment
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: at the club, and Ruby became infuriated.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: We just called cross dressers back then, Joe, Yeah, that's.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Ruby became infuriated at this request and said that
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: type of act was repulsive. Interesting.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: I concur.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just not sure if he's really telling truth here.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: They did. So those pictures of him in the jacket
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: that you showed earlier, Yeah, those were the pictures taken
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: by the FBI when they found him, right on the
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: twenty eighth, and they say scars one in scar calf
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: a right leg.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, that's when he was very fond of showing
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: off to Peter Whitney. Yeah.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, I mean, you know, we know
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: Vietnam really geared up after this whole thing, right after Kennedy,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: So I know he said he was in Laos and
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: doing all this special operation stuff. I don't buy that
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: at all. Half him scar center of upper lip, which
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: will become consistent because a lot of the people will
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: say he looked like Oswald, but he had a scar
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: on his lip. Arrests Police Department in Ohio, nineteen sixty one,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: taking a minor across a state line. No prosecution though.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: He didn't fuck her, Joe, he just drove across the
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: straight line.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: Or him. Police Department, Dallas, Oregon, Here we Go, January
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, Drunk and disorderly Find, twenty five dollars
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: in three days, three days in the tank, the drunk tank.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: Marital status separated. Wilma Jean Son Robert Gerald Crayford born
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: March first, sixty three.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: So this is lesbians baby that he didn't think that
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: was his.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting that the FBI does, or he told the FBI,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: probably right, So I mean it is that, Yeah, Rock.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: Crayford explained that.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 3: His surname back in the day Joe.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: That's true. Crayford explained that his surname is Crayford rather
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: than Crawford, as is the rest of the family because
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: when he entered the army, his name was misspelled Crayford,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: and he has considered this his name ever since. That's what.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: Never legally changed his name. He just went by this name.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is a really interesting first uh you know,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: first uh, first interview of Crayford, and they found him
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: pretty fucking quickly. Man.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: Uh yeah, so.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: I was gonna get to the article unless you want
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: to do do anything before that.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. Let me jump in here real quick
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: with the point sliding, That's what she said. Apparently, there
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: was an investigation done by the Dallas FBI on December
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: twenty one, nineteen sixty three. And I don't know how
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: they got this information or where it came from or whatever,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: but the initial lead related to the name Isaac's directed
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: to the Dallas FBI office, having in intriguing results two
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: months before Geesebres allegation surface. I don't know what those are.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: The Dallas office had sent a teletype to the San
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: Francisco office with the following directions. A notepad obtained from
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: Ruby when arrested contained the name Chuck Isaacs. Investigation reveals
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: a wife of Charles Isaacs is a ticket agent for
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: American Airlines, formerly assigned to Dallas, now assigned to San Francisco,
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: made customers or costumes sorry for Ruby's dancers. San Francisco
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: is to locate Isaac's and obtain all info our e
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: associates and activities of Ruby, and relationship of any between
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: Ruby and Oswald. Now I don't know about you, Joe,
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: but the name Chuck Isaacs sure sounds like a mafia
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: don nickname. If you're our name, if you will. So,
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: maybe Ruby knew who this guy was in San Francisco
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: because his wife made costumes for some of his dancers
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: and they were the same business, you know, what I
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: mean kind of.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Crayford is a good guy.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: You should hire her, yeah, type of thing. Look after
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: the boy, kind of feel bad about what we did here.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: I don't know, it's interesting, it's interesting, and then let's
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: see yeah again. Like I said, the HSCA was looking
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: for Craford but couldn't find him because of the last
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: name Bert Griffin. When he was uh and he was
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: one of the Warren Commission lawyers, Bert Griffin.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he did the questioning of Crayford.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was very suspicious. He told the agency that
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: he was very suspicious of Larry Crayford's involvement in something.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: They just could never nail it down. Trying to figure
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: out what this Jesus geez Bricks story is. Oh, here
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 3: it is. The New York FBI office sent an airteil
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: to headquarters on March four, sixty four, with copies sent
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: to Dallas, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Minneapolis regarding a Richard
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: Gez Bret indicating mister Isaac's nine and an employee of
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: the Department of Welfare for thirty years, had never been
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: to Texas and was working in his office on November
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: twenty second. He was not familiar with the names Hoffman, Houtman,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 3: or Romanioc and didn't recognize the descriptions of men overheard
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: or being seen by geez Brect. He did not own
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 3: a car and knew nothing about a fifty eight Dodge
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: or possibly Mercury car. He had not never been to
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: Kansas City or Winnipeg. In regards to his connection to
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: the Oswalds, Isaacs indicated that he make it contracted by
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: the US State Department and asked to assist in the
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: relocation of the Oswalds to Texas when they arrived in
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: New York from Russia. So not a San Francisco mafia,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: don this guy. Isaacs was in charge of relocating the
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: Oswalds from New York to Texas. And oh, by the way,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: his wife just happened to make costumes for Jack of
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: his dancers.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: Wow. Because Isaac's doesn't stick out to you as like
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: Italian mafia, you gotta wonder if it was like, you know,
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: Jewish mafia and or landscape or something.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: Well, they said he was with an employee of the
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: Department of Welfare for thirty years. He's a government employee.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: I say, so, maybe nothing, maybe nothing, maybe something. It's odd. However,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: for sure, I had an interesting thought and it occurred
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: to me, since we're talking a little bit about the agency.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: A here, Joe, okay, and tell me if I'm wrong,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: and we're gonna go off topic here for just one
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: second when we were talking about Joe and Eds being
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: brought out of retirement as the story goes, which we
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: actually know is not true, and we pointed that out,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Doug. And he was brought in in the
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: middle of nineteen seventy eight, right.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: In the eighth June, I believe, yep.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: Okay. And they were done by January in nineteen seventy nine, right, yep.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 3: So he was only running interference for the last six
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: months of the HSCA investigation.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: Now, I will point this out that the final report
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: of the House Select Committee on Assassinations was released on
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: March twenty ninth, nineteen seventy nine. Okay, okay, Joe. The
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: committee was formed in nineteen seventy six, okay, yep, which
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: means they were actively investigating things in seventy six, seventy seven,
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: seventy eight. Now, at some point in nineteen seventy eight,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 3: you gotta stop because you have to write the final report.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, you can't just shoot out a final report
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 3: in like three months.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, you can't keep interviews going in December nineteen
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: seventy eight for exam, you know what I mean.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: And we know they were starting to shut down these investigators,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: interviews like Dayton, Phonsie and and Buris and Delsa. They
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 3: were shutting these guys down in seventy seven and as
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: early as seventy seven and early seventy eight. So so
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: Joe and Needs, Where was Joe and Need he's at
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: in seventy six, seventy seven and the first part of
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: seventy eight If he was so scary integral to keeping
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: to run interference, you know, and to keep secret certain
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: documents for the CIA.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: I have that answer.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 3: It was a rhetorical question, but I'm interested to hear
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: your answer, Okay.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: January nineteenth, nineteen seventy six, mister Johanniedes was selected to
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: head the East Asia Division's Operations, Evaluation and Management staff,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: a larger assignment for which demonstrated managerial ability qualified him.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: This is his medal of merit from the CIA summary.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: Primary responsibility was to handle and programming and budgeting for
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: a division over nine hundred personnel at the time with
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: a budget of about fifty million. Then he continued in
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: this assignment until June nineteen seventy eight, when he was
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: asked when he was selected to assist the agency senior
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: coordinator for work with the HCA.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: So my point is, if they were so worried about
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: the AHSCA uncovering anything connected to Oswald, to the CIA,
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 3: to dre whatever you have you, if there was anything
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 3: there that they were worried about, why didn't they bring
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: this guy in at the beginning instead of assigning him
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: to bumpfuck Asia.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interviews and have already been done and reports filed.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So again the narrative of they brought Joe and
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: Edie's in from retirement to to you know, to make
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 3: sure that the HCA didn't get their hands on any
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 3: important documents or go down any certain roads. By the
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 3: time they brought this guy in, they've pretty much already
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: done their investigation.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: They were just wrapping up.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: They bring the tail end of this thing. So again,
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 3: if there was something so scary important to hide, why
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 3: didn't they bring him in in nineteen seventy six instead
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: of assigning him to you know, bum fuck Western Hemisphere Asia.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 3: That's a good point, just saying nothing about this whole
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: narrative that Joe and needs morally narrative makes any sense
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: the more you dig into it and start really ripping
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 3: it apart. But I digress, Yeah, I digress. I just
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 3: really point that out as just another reason not to
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: take a bite of this nothing burger, and I'll just
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 3: leave it there.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, back to Curtis fun fact, Rob Erica brought me back.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a nothing burger because it was pretty good
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: burger before the show from her tennis club.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: Can I think you would please?
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, So there was recently two articles published on
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: Rob's favorite site, of course, Kennedy's and King about Crayford
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: by this guy what is his name, John Washburn, And
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: I do not know who he is, but I think
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: he did some good work here and it's very interesting.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna read a little bit from it and
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: I will put the the link in the comments here.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: But we're gonna get backtrack a little bit and get
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: into the true Larry Crayford timeline and talk a little
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: bit about his military history, which is very different than
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: the official timeline. Let me bring it up here if
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: I can. All right, So I'm gonna like jump through
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: this article, but this is a section called Crayford's True
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: Crime Line. I just put the link in the comments there. Crayford,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: in his first FBI statement on November twenty eighth, put
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: his working for hhmm right, the Hollywood Movies whatever as
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: October fifteenth rather than October fifth. He said he worked
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: for Ruby from November first, but there was evidence he
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: was actually working at the Tarsel from October sixteenth. Crayford
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: was also deceptive about his activities from when he left
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: the military in November nineteen fifty nine. Crayford testified on
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: eight nine and ten April sixty four Washington before Hubert
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: and Griffin. This is from April eighth when he describes
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: his short time in the military. I was in Fort
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: ord for two months, and then I went to President Dio,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: San Francisco, where I was stationed Orcidio. What would I
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: do with that? You were.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 5: More like a skafuzin Yeah, I'm pretty sure I still am.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: Where. I was stationed at an air defense school for
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: a period of two months, and then I was assigned
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: to d Battery, second missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: From there I went to Germany. In April fifty nine,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: I was transferred to Germany to desly cursed Cursing and
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: I was stationed with D Battery, second Missile Battalion there.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: I stayed there until November nineteen fifty nine. Then I
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: was transferred back to the United States, where I was
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: discharged in November of nineteen fifty nine. Hubert, how long
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: did you serve? Altogether? Thirteen months? This is the author Now.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: Crayford then described staying with his sister in Michigan for
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: seven months, which takes us up to July sixty working
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: casually in pulp wood cutting. He then went to his
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: father's in Dallas, Oregon for fruit picking for a month,
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: then a cannery for six months, and then worked with
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: carnivals for nineteen sixty one. He described various fairground jobs,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: and he extended his account up to nineteen sixty two
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: with casual work in California Dallas, Oregon. But this remarkable
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: question was then posed which blew out a port apart,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: and this is the warrant commission. Hubert, Now we have
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: some information that you worked for the federal Aviation Agency
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: the FAA through July and October nineteen sixty and Los Angeles. Yes,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. I believe they were out of Los Angeles.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: Where I worked for them was over in Nevada. What
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: kind of work did you do, surveyor's assistant? I had
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: forgotten I had worked for them, Crayford says. Nevada is
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: an Oregon. The author says, I survey a's assistant for
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: the FAA. Isn't fruit picking. Hubert then sprung miss upon Crayford.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: Do you remember working for the tear plating company Dallas, Texas. Yeah,
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: let's see. Craigford says, I believe it was. I am
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: not certain of that. That was between April and June
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: of sixty one, was it not? I believe so. The
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: way I traveled around, I had a lot of jobs.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: I even forgot about almost them, almost all of them.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: Tear planting was based on White Boulevard between love Field
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: and Parkland Hospital. Interestingly enough, capping all of that. It
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: wasn't until Hubert then brought up that Crayford had also
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: been in Dallas, Texas in nineteen sixty one working for
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: Ablon Poultry. I told you to remember earlier that Crayford
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: revealed that he was married and had met his wife
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: in Amarillo, Texas in sixty one. Did you ever work
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: for Ablon Poultry? Yes, this was after I was married.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: This was where in Dallas, Texas. At the time, I
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: was residing at the Latte Trailer Park with my wife
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: and family. I was married June sixty two. Sure, wife
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oregon for
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: about six months from June tenth until December when you
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: were married. Married Dallas, Oregon. He met her in Admiral, Texas.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: Skipping a little here, Crayford's approached on each occasion he
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: was caught out as interesting. Rather than doubling down, he
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: gives in. He seems to be confident in knowing he
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: can get away with it. The HSCA timeline, which I
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: went over earlier, also sets out that Crayford was in
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: Dallas from March tenth, sixty three, and from March twenty
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: first at Alban Poultry and eggs and so. And this
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: is another next paragraph, Lead four. Crayford didn't hitch to
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: Dallas or arrived with the State Fair. He was driven
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: from Memphis by a staff member sergeant of an air base.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: So interestingly enough, after he's kind of like medium discharged
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: from the Army, he's working for the FAA doing aircraft
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: stuff in Nevada, which, of course, you know think like
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: Area fifty one, like there's a lot of aerial experiments
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: going on there, right, So I've always thought of Craford
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: as this toothless skufuza cardiny, But maybe there's a lot
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: more to him. Maybe, I don't know.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 3: He's definitely not dumb. He just seems like one of
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 3: them drifter types, you know. Yeah, like you know, I'm
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 3: a learner, I'm a learner. Doddie a rebel, right.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: But yeah, but he he omits all these significant jobs
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: he had post army, you know, in his three days
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: of Warrant commission testimony, you gotta wonder why. And then
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: when he when he's caught, he has an interesting strategy
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: of admitting that, which.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 5: Is, yeah, I don't know.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: That's what Griffin pointed out, you know, to what he
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: told the USCA that you know, they would often catch
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: catch him in lives until they pointed something out, and
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: then he would he would acquiesce.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: Right exactly. And we're going to see a couple more
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: examples of this rub right now, how Crayford got to
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: Dallas in October sixty three also has ir regularities. Uh,
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: mister Washburn writes, Crayford, I traveled to Dallas, Texas, Hubert,
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: How did you travel with a friend of mine, Mickey Spalline? Mickey?
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, now what Mickey's blained like a mafia writer?
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: No, I think it was a cartoon. Mmm, I think
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: it was a cartoon. I will get there in a
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: little bit the author clarify you. Yep, No, it gots
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: there in a little bit.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 3: You don't have to Well, no, whatever you have is wrong.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 3: That he was an American crime novelist. Okay, not a cartoon.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: You're welcome.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you, sir.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 5: That's why that's why I keep.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: You around, sir. Uh how do you smell the last name?
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: So we now he switches it? Uh? Core day C
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: O R D A Y. How did you travel with them?
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: He is and you don't think of Crayford as like
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: smart enough to funk with them, but he is. How
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: did you travel? And Hubert is like his antennas are up.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: This is why he was questioned for three days you
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: know Crayford traveled down in his car. Where is he from?
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: Do you know? I don't know where he's from. Do
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: you know him prior to this time? I had seen
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: him prior to this time and heard of him prior
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: to this time. I mean, it wasn't a hitchhike. Hubert says, no, sir,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: I met him at the fairgrounds in Dallas, Texas or
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: in Memphis. Crayford appears to be playing Griffin with the
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: Mickey Spelene, a character from detective fiction There You Go Wrong.
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: Hubert was astute in breaking the hitchhiker narrative, but also
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: how can Crayford have met the man who took him
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: on a nine hour drive to Dallas Fairgrounds at the
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: Dallas Fairgrounds, although he does say orn Memphis, I'm not
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: gonna read that. So I'm going to go to part
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: two here, and we're gonna now go to the flight
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: the Incredible Journey. How did Cragford get to Michigan? Rob
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: and this is also by mister Washburn. Crayford said that
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: he took routes sixty six and seventy seven, passing by
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: Oklahoma City, Saint Louis, Missouri. Then the outskirts of Chicago, Illinois,
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: from there to Lansing, Michigan, Mount Pleasant and then Claire, Michigan,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: where he arrived at nine pm on Monday, November twenty fifth.
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: He stayed with his cousin Clifford Roberts, a total distance
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: of twelve hundred eight twelve hundred and eighty two months.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: Craford said that the fifty nine hour trek began when
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: he decided to leave downtown Dallas at eleven fifty eleven
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: to eleven fifteen on November twenty third, on Saturday. He
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: had only seven dollars on him, which is kind of
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: like about seventy bucks. He was carrying two bags, so
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: he did have some clothes rob according to this, and
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: he walked fifteen to eighteen blocks until he hitched a ride,
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: okay remark He said his first ride was from a
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: person he knew from the State Fair but did not
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: know his name. Back to Warren Commission, Hubert, did you
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: walk there, Crayford? I walked about fifteen or eighteen blocks,
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: I think it is, and a guy I had met
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: at the fair picked me up. He saw me. Did
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: you arrange for him to pick you up? No? He
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: was going by. He saw me and he recognized me.
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: What is his name? What's that? What is his name?
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: I don't remember what his name is. He worked there
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: for a while. I never did know his name. I
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: don't think he knew my name. He recognized me as
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: having worked there. You were on the highway hitchhiking at
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: that time, that's right. Did you have a bed? Yes?
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: How large was it? It was this regular satchel, and
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: I had another bed. Hubert elsewhere displayed incredulity about the
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: tale of rides and the fact that Crayford said he
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: had seven dollars leaving Dallas, assuming the first ride from
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: Dallas was around noon, with Crayford saying he arrived in
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: Saint Louis around six a m. On Sunday. That was
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: seven hundred and five miles in eighteen hours, averaging thirty
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: nine miles an hour. Not that fast, then, he said,
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: he did Saint Louis to the Chicago outskirts. I measured
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: the distance as country Club Hills where the road bears
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: to Michigan, at about two hundred and eighty four miles.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: He told Hubert he arrived there at two pm on Sunday.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: That's eight hours averaging thirty five miles an hour, and
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: the whole Dallas to Chicago journey averaging thirty seven miles
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: an hour. After that, his description of getting from the
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: Chicago outskirts to Claire breaks down as to lansing two
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: hundred twelve miles, then six other miles to other places
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: in Michigan. That's thirty one hours, averaging nine miles an hour.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: Was he jogging, he averaged thirty five miles an hour.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: Had he averaged thirty five miles an hour, he could
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: have done it in eight hours. But Crayford did not
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: describe any long stop sleepovers or waits for lips. He
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: described near continuous travel. Hubert picked up on that that
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: the final sixteen miles from Mount Pleasant to Claire, according
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: to Crayford, took twelve hours.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, Christ, you could walk sixteen miles in fucking
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 3: twelve hours.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely, there's Hubert, there is some mistake in
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: timing about of twelve hours. Oh oh yeah, that's what
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: I was saying. Crayford says, I've lost some time there.
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: It may be that you are making a mistake. Larry.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: Let's see if we can't refresh your memory from the
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: time you got that last long hitch that you took
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: to Mount Pleasant, because you remember getting to Mount Pleasant
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: at night around eight thirty. Yes, and that you say
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: is a run of what five six hours? I don't
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: believe it would take that long. So if you got
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: there about eight thirty at night, Hubert says, then either
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: you didn't get any hitches for a long period of time,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: or something else happened. I'm just trying to because you
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: told us, and if it is not so, why we
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: want you to correct it. Everyone can make mistakes. Hubert says,
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: you said you picked up this ride at sixty miles
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: outside Lansing. And by the way, Rob Lancing is where
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: I first went to college in Michigan State. He's Lancing
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 1: and in two Yeah, interesting city there and into Mount
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: Pleasant prior to the dawn of the twenty fifth. Maybe
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: you got that ride late in the day. Let's put
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: it this way. What was it a continued ride straight on?
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: It carried me straight on through to Mount Pleasant. Did
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: you stop at all? Not that I can recall. Did
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: you stop for lunch or anything of the sort? And
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: now the author continues putting all into context. Crayford got
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: to Dallas to the got from Dallas to the Chicago
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: end of Lake Michigan in one day, two hours, seventy
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: seven percent of the distance, but he took one day
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: and seven hours to travel twenty three percent of the
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: trip within Michigan itself. Hubert spotted the most egregious time
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: discrepancies occur when he said he missed Chicago by bypassing it,
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: which is what I had referenced and you had referenced earlier.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: He didn't take you through Chicago. No, Crayford says, I
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: bypassed most of Chicago.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 5: How did you do that?
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: On a couple alternative routes with hitchhikers, different rides, different rides, Yes,
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: how many I got three or four rides in Chicago,
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: Crayford says, with these several rides around Chicago bypassing it,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: how long did it take you to get around Chicago?
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: Probably two or three hours. We could all almost see
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: Hubert raising his eyebrows. So this testimony of Crayford lends
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: credence to his story of hitchhiking, his departure from Dallas
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: not making sense, and that he might have stopped, and
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: he makes a big deal to say I bypass Chicago
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: which makes me think he's trying to hide the fact
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: that he stopped in Chicago, Right, that's the only way
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: to really to really analyze all this. Yeah, it's crazy.
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: And then of course the cabin was like right on
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: the Canadian border, not that it mattered because the FBI
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: found him in like less than twenty four hours. And
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: let me see, so one thing, and it's alleged that
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: maybe Ruby you some of his mafia context to get
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: to get Crayford out right, maybe stopping in Chicago place
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: to stay for the night, whatever, Maybe your ride, his
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: his story about four different rides going around Chicago doesn't
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: really make sense.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 3: Seven dollars in his pocket don't make sense because I'm sorry,
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 3: you're not just gonna take seven dollars out of the
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 3: cash register. You're gonna clean that motherfucker out. If you're
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 3: leaving town, then you ain't coming back. Fuck Jack Ruby.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 3: I'm taking every dollar in that every nickel, quarter, dime, dollar, everything.
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 3: And I'm sure he knew where Ruby even hid money
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 3: in that place.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually, uh no, that's a really good point
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: because I I start a comment here by Sally, did
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: he steal cash out of Ruby's Yes, So Little Lynn
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: was the one that said that Ruby was making Crayford
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: move out of the club because things were going missing.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: That is according to her testimony that's also part of
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: this article. One of the articles. It goes into depth
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: into her testimony. But things might have gone down before
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: he had the opportunity to do that, or or he
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: did stay at the place behind it. I think it
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: was the Vegas club that was right behind it, or
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: they had a separate apartment or something. That's all right,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: but okay, it wasn't the fast one. I'm gonna do
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: a couple of comments. Didn't Larry's sister say he was
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 1: a major creep Southwest? Yeah? I mean I don't. I'm
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: not sure, but being as this one of his charges.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 3: And comments about her Tea Tas Joe, she had some
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 3: nice tits for a sister.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean the charge of transporting a minor across
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: state lines. I think answers that question right. And yes,
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: Paula does owe me a chicken dinner. I highlighted this
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: slacker Dan came. I want to say hi to him,
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: how are you, sir?
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 3: I am? Chicken nuggets from McDonald Paula.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: And Neon and why nine one four glad I called
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: this great stuff, Thank you sir. Yeah, it seems that way.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: Tiny stolen valor type of thing. I don't think he
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: was a sniper. I don't think he was ever in Laos.
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: I don't think he was much of anything. He was
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: in there for thirteen months and he wasn't even honorably discharged.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a big talker later in life. You know,
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: like with most people, they found themselves unexpectedly small dab
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 3: in the middle of this ship. Whether you had anything
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 3: to do with it or not, you know, especially if
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 3: if if Larry Crayford had no involvement whatsoever in any
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 3: of this. He's the most unlucky motherfucker in the world.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: True.
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 3: You know, he had a shitty life. You know, his
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 3: lesbian girlfriend gets pregnant. He don't think it's hit, you know,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 3: they it's caught up in all this ship with Jack
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 3: Ruby and and the and the Warren Commission and then
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 3: the trial and then you know, he is smart enough
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 3: to change his name back, and nobody else is smart
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 3: enough to figure it out.
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 3: I mean it worked, it used to him.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: It did work.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 3: But at least Whitney tracked tracked him down later in life.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 3: And you know, I wish he could have got a
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 3: little more truth out of the guy. But U, it's
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 3: amazing you got anything at all.
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, tiny, says Joean Edies. Was Greek. Never my entire
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: life have I encountered a black Greek. We were joking
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: about the.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: Howard thing in Billy d Williams of Black Greek.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: Billy d Williams.
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Lando, I have no.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: Idea that.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 5: Are you aging me against sir? Yeah, I am, Yes,
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 5: it's okay.
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: Turn somewhere more. Thany's ears perked up. Yeah, when we
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: said the Howard apart, Yeah, it was just funny. It
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 1: was just a funny coincidence. Uh, and I think Sally's
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: not far off here. Deadbeat dad didn't want to fork
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: fork out for his kid that would be the as
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 1: lesbian wife's kid.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 3: Well, it is kind of hard for it to be
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: his kid, saying.
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but maybe he didn't want to acknowledge it was
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: this kid, even if it was because you didn't want
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 1: to pay child support.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 3: Well, got his name, that's all you need back then.
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: And he did sign the birth certificate I read, So yeah,
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: that's not going to go over well in family court.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 3: The immaculate conception. My tongue got her pregnant, Sir, I
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 3: don't know what.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: I would just eat him and stuff.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 3: Right, How you have the intercourse with the lady just
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 3: with tongue. Yeah, maybe Jack Ruby caught him. Look, hey,
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 3: you just eat him, they'll never get pregnant.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to give her the last thing here.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: Reading the last of the article, of course, the question
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: arises as to why Crayford held to the only seven
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: dollars story, a point of detail that seems again improbable.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: I can only conclude that having little money was essential
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: to the central story he'd hitchhiked, while also ruling out
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 1: the possibility he used public transportation. Traveled by public transport
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: could invoke his search for witnesses and would firm up
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: the times the lone fish journey does serve a purpose,
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: it distances him from a team effort. From all that
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: I outlined above, it is more likely that Craford didn't
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: hitchhike at all. In my view, mister Washburn says he
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: was driven to Chicago and then told to lie low
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: with relatives in remote Michigan, with a hitch hiking story
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: as a cover. Having been asked how Craford knew the
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: route to Michigan from Dallas without a map, he said
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: he'd done it previously, but then gave an irrelevant answer
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: about a prior hitch to Sacramento and Bakersfield with his
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: wife and two babies. That led to more questions about
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: why Crayford's wife wanted to take her two babies hitchhiking.
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 1: He keeps getting himself in more trouble with his lives,
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 1: which I think is why this testimony in the Warning
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: Commission lasted literally three days. Right, is impossible to stitch
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: most things Crayford said to make something sensible out of it.
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: I agree, But this was the man who was deceptive
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: about getting to Dallas, the dates when that was, and
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: clung to a dubious story about what he was doing
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: on November twenty second. But the Warrant Commission final report stated, quote,
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: an investigation of Chris's unusual behavior confirms that his departure
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: from Dallas was innocent, of course warsion, And of course,
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: although Crayford's preemptory decision to leave Dallas might be unusual
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: for most persons, such behavior does not appear to have
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: been uncommon for him, his family residents had shifted frequently
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: among California, Michigan, and Oregon during his twenty two years.
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: He had earned his livelihood picking crops, working in carnivals,
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: and taking other odd jobs throughout the country, but not
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: working for the FAA or the army. You leave that out.
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: That conclusion avoids the fact that Hubert and Griffin exposed
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: Larry Crayford's account as being full of bizarre and probabilities
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: that even that seemed like cover stories. Working for the
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: FAA and Nevada is excluded from that summary as he was,
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: as was his regular presence in Dallas. Whoever drafted those
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 1: assertions wasn't reflecting the underlying evidence. So I thought that
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: was an interesting article, Rob, And I'm going to put
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: part two in the comments here, and if you guys
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: weren't check it out. But uh, a lot seems to
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: be going on here below board, you know.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Now back to the whole Kittrell thing for a second. Yeah, Now,
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 3: I did an episode BJ that's before Joe about Lord
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 3: Kittrell and her and her manuscript. I believe she was
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 3: writing a book after the assassination and was trying to
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 3: get published and all this and that never did, though,
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 3: but she was interested in what happened to her because
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 3: it was kind of weird.
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 3: She actually suspected that it was a sordid little con
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 3: game being played by Oswald and the impostor. And here's
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 3: what we mean by that. So, I had a man
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 3: who pretended that he was another man who I had
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 3: dealt with before. The impostor wanted to file an unemployment
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 3: claim for the other man, who was actually working somewhere.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to create a scene, and not knowing
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 3: what else to do, I changed the codes on the
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 3: paperwork just as he wanted. What do you think I
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 3: should do? Has anyone else had this experience? And her
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 3: response her fellow employee might have said, oh, yeah, same
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 3: thing happened. So and so a few years back, some
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 3: woman found a job somewhere, but she wanted to keep
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 3: getting that unemployment check, so she sent her sister in
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 3: to sign for the claims check. Now, the next time
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 3: that happens, what you ought to do is dot dot
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 3: and Laura would be given some time on a procedure
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 3: for dealing with impostors. Following this line of thinking, we
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 3: can really readily see why she failed to see the
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 3: true significance of the Oswald impostor that he was a
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 3: minor emissary of a vast conspiracy organized by powerful men
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 3: who wanted to kill the president and seize the White House.
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 3: So I don't know about all that, h but it
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 3: is interesting to posit that theory because it could even
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 3: happen to Oswald without him knowing about it. Somebody could
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 3: right go to the Employment Unemployment Commission, pretending to be
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 3: him and collecting an unemployment check because it was something
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 3: that Oswald was known to do. He rarely missed an
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 3: unemployment check when he was unemployed. So just an interesting
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 3: idea to chew on for a minute. All right, let's
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 3: go over some of this, Joseph Okay, all right now,
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 3: when we're talking about Larry Crayford, here's an announcement from
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 3: an Oregon newspaper in nineteen eighty six. Dallas Hugh and
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 3: Alice Crayford of Dallas, that's Dallas, Oregon, will celebrate their
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 3: fiftieth wedding anniversary with an open house from one to
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: five Saturday, January eighteenth, at their home at seventy eight
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 3: to nine Southwest Birch Street. Friends and relatives are invited
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 3: hosts will be their children and children spouses. That's Dean
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 3: and Loretta Crawford and Laney Powell all of Salem, Charles
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 3: and Corky Hyas of Elgin, Kurt and Shirley Crayford of Amity.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 3: That's Curtis Laverne. His family called him Kurt huh not
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 3: Larry and Jean and Norma Neil of Dallas, Alas wrote A.
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 3: Ball and Hugh Crafer were married January eighteen, nineteen thirty six,
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 3: in Farewell, Michigan. He is a retired tanner and she
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 3: is a homemaker. The family includes sixteen grandchildren and eighteen
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 3: great grandchildren. So the Crafers like the fuck obviously loved it.
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 3: In fact, loved it.
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: I bet they're stolen Oregon too.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 3: There's got to be a gazillion of them.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah by now.
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Hugh is his brother, right, Hugh is his father.
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 3: This is his father and mother.
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 5: All okay, tech, wow, yeah that makes sense.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. He gets all those good looks from his mama, Oh.
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 5: Mama, from the chain, his dark skin from his father.
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well he was a tanner, Joe, I mean he probably.
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 1: Got a that's true, that's true.
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 5: He's chemical son on him years of tanning and will
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 5: take its toll.
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 3: As they say, now, God rest his soul. Four years
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 3: after this, Hugh, that's Kurt's daddy. Curtis's daddy passed away
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety at the age of seventy three. Born
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 3: in Gilmore, Michigan, he attended Farewell Agricultural School. He married
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 3: Alice wrote a ball in nineteen thirty eight or what
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 3: is that? Thirty six? Sorry in Farewell, and he served
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 3: in the army during World War Two. He moved to
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 3: Dallas in nineteen fifty eight and was a tanner at
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 3: Mirror and McDonald Tannery, and retired in nineteen eighty seven
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 3: with his sorry. His wife died in nineteen eighty seven.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 3: So damn uh so, one year after their fiftieth anniversary
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 3: his wife dies, and then three years after he retires
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 3: he dies. Ain't that? Ain't that the breaks?
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 3: He enjoyed gardening, Joe and leather crafting. I make you
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 3: a wallet, you need a wallets, hunt, I make your
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 3: wallet or a belt? I got that. Come here, let
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 3: me measure you. Come here, little daddy, Hugh, Meggy, come.
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: On, give me your measurements.
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 3: Survivors include his son's Dean Crayford of Salem, Mark Slater
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 3: of Dallas, and Curtis not Larry Curtis Crayford of mcmonville.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 3: Daughters Corbell Hayes of Elgin, Norman Neil of Dallas, Alice
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 3: Laney Powell of Salem, seventeen grandchildren and sixteen great grandchildren.
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 3: I guess they lost a couple of great grandchildren in
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 3: the mix there somewhere.
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't be last.
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 3: The four years is to anniversary they had eighteen.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: They did say eighteen.
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 3: Good Lord, oh God, rest her soul. Services will be
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 3: at eleven am Wednesday in the Dallas Mortuary. Contributions may
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 3: be made to the Oregon Health Sciences Center in Portland Jail,
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 3: if you'd like to contribute. Now, this lovely lady is
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 3: surely this was Curtis's wife. Again. She passed away in
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 3: two thousand and five. Yes, and they allegedly weren't together
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 3: since nineteen ninety one. But I don't know if they
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 3: remain married. I don't know, but that's his wife. Surely.
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: What was that the was that the lesbian one?
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 4: No?
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 3: This is in nineteen sixty four, got it and had
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 3: daughter Jennifer with I see. But their daughter passed away
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 3: at age forty in two thousand and one. So this
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 3: lady died in two thousand and five, and Larry or Curtis,
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 3: whatever you want to call him, died in twenty eleven,
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 3: just pretty late. Yeah, So.
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 1: You think of him as like some skufuza, no teeth
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: working at you know, traveling circuses, Like how does this
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 1: guy survive that long? But I think there's more more to.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 3: Him that what I thought on seventy when he died. So,
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how anyway could have should
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 3: have lived longer a little bit. Maybe gum disease got him.
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know. The gingervitis is a killer. This is
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 3: the obituary of his daughter, Jennifer Lynn Crayford born in Dallas, Oregon.
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 3: She was a foster care provider. Jennifer survived by her
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 3: son Caleb j. Poppy or pop or a gross misspelling
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 3: of Pope I don't know, and her father, Pope Curtis Crayford,
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 3: not Larry. Private gathering will be held later. Arrangements by
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 3: Macy and Son Funeral Directors published by the Oregonian on
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 3: October fifth, two thousand and nine, and again Crayford would
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 3: outlive his own daughter by two years at this point.
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 3: So either way, this guy had a pretty shitty life
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 3: along the way, a rough life. Was he involved in
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 3: some other shady things? Because you know, Joe, when you
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 3: look at this picture and you see the picture on
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 3: the left with Larry Crayford and the Eisenhower style jackets
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 3: that he wore, and then you look at the jacket
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 3: in the middle of the supposed jacket that they found
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 3: behind that car in the Texaco station after Tippet's murder,
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 3: it does look like something he would wear. And if
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 3: Crayford's walking down the street, you know, could he look
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 3: like Oswald from a distance, Yeah, you know you might.
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 3: He fits the general description, right, five nine and sixty
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 3: five pounds, brown hair, you know, white. He fits that
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 3: general description. So it's not out of the realm of
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 3: possibility that Tippet may have rolled up on him and
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 3: for some reason things went sideways and he ended up
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 3: shooting him. Because you either have to believe, Okay, you
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 3: have to believe if you're a if you are a
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 3: conspiracy theorist as we are, you have I don't believe
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 3: that Oswald killed JD. Tippett. Now for that to be true,
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 3: he cannot be at the scene of the Tippet murder.
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 3: He cannot be the one scene running away. He cannot
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 3: be the one ditching a jacket that. Oh, by the way,
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 3: Joe had California Dry or dry Cleaner tags in it
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 3: where Larry lived. Okay, it wasn't even Oswald's size jacket,
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 3: and he was never known to dry clean any of
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 3: his clothing. Ever.
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, Marina said she handwashed his jacket of that kind.
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 3: Right. So to be a true conspiracy theorist, you have
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 3: to believe that Oswald was not at the scene of
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 3: the tip mur and he didn't kill JD. Tippett. That
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 3: means that somebody else was, and it had to be
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 3: somebody else that kind of looked like Oswald to match
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 3: the general descriptions given by the multiple witnesses. You know,
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 3: throw out the ones that say it was short, fat
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 3: and bushy hair, throw out the ones and say there
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 3: was two people there, But take into consideration all the
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 3: other ones that said it was Oswalt. Right, So then
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 3: what do we have here. You have somebody that was
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 3: embroiled in something related to Jack Ruby. Because Jack Ruby
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 3: ends up killing Oswalt okay. And oh, by the way,
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 3: you have somebody fleeing Dallas, Texas the day after the assassination,
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 3: which is just a little bit sus if you ask me.
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 3: And there's also mentioned of two Oswald's Texas, Texas theater,
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 3: or two people that looked like each other. One arrested
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 3: in the balcony, one arrested on the floor, one taken
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 3: out the back door, one taking out the front door.
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 3: What the hell is going on here? I don't know,
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 3: but it's interesting.
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's extremely interesting. And Rob I always thought
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: that it's a possibility that as of Saturday morning. Of course,
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: Oswald's already in police custody for I mean, almost twenty
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: four hours by the time Crayford leaves right a little
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: less than that that maybe Ruby already knew his task,
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: that he had to take out Oswald at this point,
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: but maybe he tried to convince Crayford to do it
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: and he said, fuck this shit, I'm out. This is
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 1: a suicide mission.
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or if you know, part of the deal with
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 3: Jack Ruby is impersonating Oswald because somebody was doing this shit.
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 3: Somebody was going on test driving the car, somebody was
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 3: acting a fool at the rifle range, among other things.
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 3: There's there's there's an Oswalt saying the morning of the
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 3: assassination at a convenience store where he goes and buys
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 3: peanut britle and drinks a beer.
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: Right, and then the id was like oswaltz Right.
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 3: It was Oswalt's. And there's multiple wallets. Yeah, okay, fuck
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 3: had had a wallet on him with Oswald identification on it,
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 3: and Tippett rolls up on him and says, hey, Bud,
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 3: let me see your license and he looks at and
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 3: that's the name he's looking for. Okay, Because there's suspect
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 3: shit with Tippett as well, because Tippitt was sitting at
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 3: the good Luck Oil Company gas station on the other
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 3: side of the Houston Street viaduct waiting waiting for Oswald
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 3: to go buy on a bus and it never happens,
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 3: right or whatever. And then you have Tippet acting in
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 3: radically pulling people over, looking in their car, going to
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 3: the top ten records, making a phone call, not saying nothing, running.
• 2:15:52
  Speaker 1: Back out off.
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 3: So there's definitely something going on here, okay. And if
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 3: you believe certain testimonies like Dago where he says that
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 3: he was privy to going to a party where Jack
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 3: Ruby had his girls. JD. Tippett was there. They were
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 3: in the car together, they knew each other. And it's
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 3: some sort of weird concoction, conspiracy type of thing to
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 3: set Oswald up for this whole assassination thing. That's where
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 3: your mind can go. That's where you can really try
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 3: to figure this thing out and say, all right, what
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 3: exactly the hell going on here?
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, no, because it in May October to
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 1: say officially, when Craifird started working for Ruby, and November first,
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 1: I think personally the the conspiracy is planned by this point.
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 1: Uh maybe Ruby realized, wow, this Carney is a dead
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 1: ringer for Oswald.
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 3: That's what Inger but could pass for, right right, right
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 3: and and and that's.
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: Why I'm gonna give him free room and board and
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: give him some minor task to do.
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 3: Because you have Laura Cattrell saying this guy looked like him.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 3: You have Ruth Payne saying this guy looked like him.
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 3: You have Mary Lawrence, the waitress at the B and
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 3: B Luca's BnB restaurant, saying that she saw uh Ruby
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 3: eating with Oswald, but it was Wald. It was Crayford. Yeah,
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 3: it's all the other Ruby Oswald sightings. I mean, so
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 3: this guy could he wasn't a dead ringer, but he
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 3: could pass for him right, and he could say the
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 3: right things. He could have the right identification in his pocket.
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 3: The question is who's pulling the strings here?
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can understand why they want to set
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 3: Oswald up for this hit that's coming up. You know,
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 3: then you have to look, Okay, what was it the mafia?
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 3: Because obviously Jack Ruby is either in charge of setting
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 3: Oswald up, you know, or making sure he's in certain
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 3: places at certain times or seen doing certain things at
• 2:18:34
  Speaker 3: certain times, or making this guy's name memorable, his image
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 3: memorable after you know, so after the fact people can say, oh, yeah,
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 3: you know, this guy was crazy, he was doing this shit,
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 3: he was over here. Yeah, so you have to figure, okay,
• 2:18:49
  Speaker 3: what was it the mafia or was it intelligence or
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 3: was it something else? Was it the right wing? Because
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 3: we do have stories of Jack Reuby meeting with General
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 3: Walker and being real fucking concerned about the extreme right
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 3: wing and the John Birch Society. You know, after he's
• 2:19:16
  Speaker 3: arrested in talking to the Warrant Commission and he asked
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 3: him to get him out of Dallas because that's what
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 3: he was scared of. He specifically named the John Birch
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 3: Society in General Walker. You know, he didn't name the mafia,
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 3: he didn't name the CIA, that's what he named. So
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 3: if you look at these things through that lens, you
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 3: know first and you can take it back to the
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 3: General Walker shooting. If he figured out or got some
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 3: kind of inkling that Oswald was there and took a
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 3: shot at him, and he's like this motherfucker, you know.
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It's fascinating to think about because you
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 3: have to get everything from New Orleans to match up
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 3: and meet somewhere in Dallas, right right, And the bridge
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 3: between the truth the two is is far in a
• 2:20:22
  Speaker 3: way the hardest link to make in all of this.
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 3: Throw and throw in Mexico City as the bridge and
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 3: you're totally fucking confused, right Yeah. So I don't know
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 3: if we helped clear up anything here this evening or
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 3: just made more and more.
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 1: Everybody sometimes do that, but I think there was I
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 1: think we have proved that there's a lot more going
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 1: on with Crayford, uh, compared to the official story that
• 2:20:55
  Speaker 1: we have heard or that we've been told.
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, something very very fishy. Yeah, yeah, you got anything else?
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 1: Uh No, I just let me see. I think I
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 1: only have one double B had to just leave us.
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 1: Thanks gentlemen, love you, love your show. Good night and
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 1: sweet dreams and all peace and blessings. Have a happy
• 2:21:23
  Speaker 1: Labor Day.
• 2:21:26
  Speaker 3: Chicken.
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, he got attacked by a chicken twice, two chickens,
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 1: so we hope his wounds are healing. But uh and
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: also Rob, we have that uh, that account of the
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: person that picked up the hitchhiker that said, do you
• 2:21:44
  Speaker 1: think it'd be possible to shoot President Kennedy. I'm blanking
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 1: on the name a couple of days before the assassination. Yes, yeah,
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 1: so too.
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 3: Many, right, yeah, hence the Harvey and Lee theory. There's
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 3: just so many m hm. But it doesn't have to
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 3: be a Harvey and Lee. It has to be a
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 3: Lee and somebody that could that looks like him, right right?
• 2:22:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's uh. He is a fascinating character, one
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 1: of my favorite to kind of explore. I know you've
• 2:22:24
  Speaker 1: done a lot of work and research on him and
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 1: reading on him in the past.
• 2:22:29
  Speaker 3: It's almost time to revisit some things of the past,
• 2:22:32
  Speaker 3: and Crayford's one of them, and some of some of
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 3: our new new viewers and supporters and listeners may not
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 3: have gone back that far in the library oh episodes.
• 2:22:46
  Speaker 3: That is the longoming podcast. I mean shit, this is
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 3: three hundred and fifty eight. You got to go back
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 3: quite a ways to get to the Battle of Larry Craven.
• 2:22:54
  Speaker 3: But that's true. You stand on that show and a
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 3: stand on this one too, and it up against anybody
• 2:23:03
  Speaker 3: who wants to talk about Larry Craver. I agree, sir,
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 3: all right, Joe. With that being said, grabbed the damn
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 3: Dog hashtag Grabbed the Damn Dog. Let everybody go to
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 3: bed late. It's been a hell of the show. Thank
• 2:23:27
  Speaker 3: you guys for hanging out with us. I hope you
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 3: enjoyed it. It was a banger. We didn't know him. Queendom,
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 3: the greatest lies or.
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 1: The greatest crimes are committed in the name of justice.
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 1: Aretation is Jim Garrison's.
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 3: It could be used for him or against him in
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 3: this strange case.
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 1: Good Night.
• 2:23:59
  Speaker 4: Hits.
• 2:24:01
  Speaker 3: The book review coming soon and next Wednesday starts a
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 3: new month from the members. Norman then already have some
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 3: banger ship to discuss on next Wednesdays members only, so
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 3: make sure you tune in and check it out. Check
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 3: out the merch store if you want to wrap the show.
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 3: And Joe, you muted and thank you. Yeah, I said,
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 3: Ruby is catching on. She knows I'm going to make
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 3: her dance. And Mansa said she's smarter than she looks.
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 3: She just want to dance.
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, and definitely if you haven't subscribed, please do
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 1: that helps us a lot. Hit the like button, help
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 1: us defeat the.
• 2:24:57
  Speaker 5: A L G O and U.
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 1: We're street.
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 3: It's the algorithm.
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, and we appreciate everyone for for joining us.
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know if it's that time of year, the
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 3: fact that there's twenty other JFK podcasts that seemed to
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 3: pop up out of nowhere. Yeah, and we're getting watered
• 2:25:16
  Speaker 3: down in the bullshit. I don't know, but where the
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 3: ogs of this ship Joe, and they don't get no
• 2:25:27
  Speaker 3: better than this.
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well you are at least well I'm a I'm
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 1: a Joey come lately.
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 3: Well, you're part of it now, so it's a weak.
• 2:25:37
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
• 2:25:39
  Speaker 3: It's our Yes see you guys Wednesday.
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 1: M HM.
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 3: Do enjoy the rest of your Friday, and we are out. Folks.
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 3: Peace Peace perce