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The Lonely Weight Of Command · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  Hi everybody, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network Podcast.
• 0:03
  I'm Dr.
• 0:04
  Daniel Roberts, President and CEO of Mortal Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated.
• 0:10
  I'm very happy to welcome Chris Lowe from Singapore with us for our show today.
• 0:16
  And uh we have an exciting episode for you.
• 0:19
  Chris is the executive leader specializing in architecting complex programs and translating strategic intent into operational capability in high-stakes environment.
• 0:31
  Currently delivering consulting services that design architects assembles and delivers turnkey operational capabilities using available cost technologies that solves problems within 90 days.
• 0:45
  Still discovering what I will become, transitioning from a combat veteran into a startup founder and entrepreneur with one clarity.
• 0:53
  Combat left me with scars, entrepreneurship gave me failures, healing gave me sympathy.
• 0:59
  Or sorry, healing gave me empathy, and empathy taught me true leadership of service to awaken belief in others.
• 1:07
  So Chris, great to have you on the show.
• 1:09
  Welcome.
• 1:10
  Thank you very much, Dr.
• 1:12
  Daniels.
• 1:13
  Yeah, so uh Dr.
• 1:14
  Robert, sorry, yeah, Dr.
• 1:16
  Robert, yeah, that's fine.
• 1:17
  Actually, people do uh reverse those all the time.
• 1:22
  Um, but so so we sort of connected on LinkedIn, and uh I was a little fascinated by your story.
• 1:30
  So I'd love to hear just from the beginning, tell us about your combat experiences and and kind of how they shaped who you are now and what you do now.
• 1:39
  Oh, thanks, thanks for the question, Dan.
• 1:42
  I'll try my best to keep it short and and set the context.
• 1:46
  So um, as you know, I I am born a Singaporean.
• 1:53
  So in Singapore, all military males, when they reach the age of 18, they have to do two two to two and a half years of conscript service.
• 2:03
  Okay, because in my time, back in uh 1990, uh, I was obligated to do two and a half years.
• 2:11
  But the current system today, you only need to do two years.
• 2:15
  So uh it was with that context that all military males receive um military training.
• 2:24
  And uh while while we receive military training, the uniqueness of the Singapore military is we are a peacetime army, and the vehicle of uh military training is actually used for nation building.
• 2:42
  Because uh I call it the last bastion of social norms formulation, um, because most times when we grow up, Singapore is a very uh it's a multicultural, multi-ethnic society, and and why I call it the the last bastion for social norms is because you know when we go through the military, everyone goes through a similar experience, right?
• 3:09
  We all shave our heads, we all lose our identities, and we're all you know, after you put on your uniform, and you all smell the same, you all look the same, you all start from ground zero.
• 3:21
  So that's the beauty of the military experience.
• 3:24
  And so I I enlisted in the military um back in 1990, and I did relatively well enough that I went to OCS, Officer Cadet School, um, and in the midst of receiving my officership training, I was uh shortlisted and eventually um nominated by my by the Singapore military to attend West Point.
• 3:56
  So I entered I entered West Point uh with the class of 1995 uh in 1991, and I received the full four-year experience, West Point experience, and graduated my class on the 6th of June uh 1995.
• 4:13
  So from there I returned back to sorry, it wasn't 6th of June, it should be 3rd of June uh 1995.
• 4:24
  So after graduation, I came back to the Singapore military to serve, and I was originally commissioned in the infantry, but when I came back, I was re-vocationalized to the field artillery, and and so uh that started my training into uh the profession of arms.
• 4:45
  I I did well enough, and um the military decided to send me because you know I was I was kind of um yearmarked for what we call a specialist track tour, which was in the area of acquisition, capability acquisition.
• 5:03
  And so they sent me to receive my postgraduate studies at the United States Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California, from 1999, September to April of 2001.
• 5:16
  And then from there I came back to Singapore and continued my service.
• 5:19
  Uh so let me uh let me stop you there a couple of places before you go on.
• 5:24
  There's some really good information here.
• 5:26
  Uh it's it's so you must have been uh because you know, to get these special opportunities, you must have been what we really what we call in the US military high speed, right?
• 5:41
  You're you're you know rated highly, so you were you were very successful uh early in your career, very successful as an officer and as a um a soldier, right?
• 5:57
  I I guess I was.
• 5:59
  Uh and and one thing um I I kind of gained an unfair advantage because coming from Singapore, um, the education system is is is world-class.
• 6:09
  And so I was fortunate to receive a good uh grounding in in education, and especially the education system in the east, uh, there's a lot of emphasis on math and science.
• 6:24
  Yeah.
• 6:25
  So, you know, calculus was was was a breeze for me, even though I know it's not for me.
• 6:31
  But where but where I kind of uh was challenged a lot where it was was in the field of humanities.
• 6:40
  Because uh you know, the education system back home, we tend to emphasize a lot on road memorization.
• 6:47
  So we you know, history class, we memorize a lot of facts, geography class, we memorize a lot of facts rather than fully appreciating critical thinking.
• 6:59
  I mean, where I really sucked in and uh uh was was really challenged was in uh philosophy, even poetry class.
• 7:11
  Wow, yeah.
• 7:12
  So and and of course, you know, uh one of the classes that I wish I had paid more attention to was political science.
• 7:21
  Because in my naive young thinking, I was like, I'm not American, why should I care about political science?
• 7:28
  So I I kind of regretted it because I realize now um uh a lot of uh understanding American culture goes back to uh Tockerville's observations.
• 7:43
  So uh so and and that was a textbook that I had to study back in in uh at West Point.
• 7:52
  Anyway, so with that fast forward, uh so that was my context.
• 7:58
  Um and so as an artillery officer, I I I received uh a lot of training.
• 8:05
  Uh most times uh because Singapore is a tiny red dot, we we are very exposed to training overseas to conduct our live firing trainings.
• 8:17
  Right.
• 8:18
  So um it has brought me around the world uh with the artillery.
• 8:24
  I've been to South Africa to train with the South Africans, the Australians, the the New Zealanders, and of course the Americans.
• 8:33
  So the nice thing about being an artillery officer in Singapore is uh it allowed me to continue being exposed to um different cultures, especially from the West.
• 8:48
  And I think about this as you're going through life, you know, of course it's exciting to go overseas to train, right?
• 8:56
  But I do believe everything that happened in my life, the journey that I took happened for a reason.
• 9:04
  And and all this accumulation of experiences, the lived experience, was was was critical in helping me um, in my opinion, be successful in Afghanistan.
• 9:19
  So I I I flew out from Singapore to Afghanistan on the 3rd of January 22.
• 9:25
  And when I landed, up to that point in time, uh Afghanistan, yeah, I mean it had its fair share of violence, but generally things were relatively peaceful.
• 9:36
  Um but what had happened was uh Obama President Obama had won his re-election, and he had promised that he would bring the troops home by Christmas 2013.
• 9:49
  And and as luck would have it, um, when I was on the ground from January to May of 2012, uh, you know, starting from late January onwards, every week violence kept increasing.
• 10:06
  So uh during my time on the ground, I I experienced two near-death experiences.
• 10:15
  Uh the first of which was probably one of my lowest points, probably the lowest point in my life was um the Quran burning incident.
• 10:25
  Right.
• 10:26
  If you're if you may remember or yeah, I do.
• 10:29
  Yeah.
• 10:30
  Right.
• 10:30
  So I mean, while I was not directly involved in an incident, right?
• 10:34
  But being on the ground, you could feel this tension in the air, right?
• 10:40
  You could feel how violence just overnight you know sky, you know, uh exponentially increased threefold, right?
• 10:49
  Uh especially green on blue incidents.
• 10:52
  And at one point, I think it it it it it it was almost the incident that broke the camel's back.
• 11:01
  That was how serious it was.
• 11:03
  Um but thankfully peace prevailed.
• 11:06
  But why was it the lowest point in my life?
• 11:09
  Was it it was a a series of of build-up events that were linked to the Quran burning incident.
• 11:18
  It started with with when the incident broke out and uh and rioting started and the mass killing started, um, the rise in violence started, we were given our three-day lockdown.
• 11:32
  And in that three-day lockdown, um, the thing is, as a coalition partner and as a minor coalition partner, what what most people may not realize is um you actually as a Singaporean uh operating uh with the Australians under the umbrella of NATO, you you are heavily dependent on um on Big Brother America for a lot of intelligence.
• 12:06
  Yeah, and and when violence hits, um sometimes somehow the the intelligence also dries up.
• 12:16
  Right?
• 12:16
  So um, and but the more important thing that happened was um because we were in three-day lockdown, I knew at some point uh along the three days, I would have to answer to my command back in Singapore, and everyone would be looking at me and and ask the question, do we continue with the mission or not?
• 12:44
  So let me stop you there real quick.
• 12:46
  Um so you're you're under the Australian Australians.
• 12:52
  Um I'm I'm I deployed with them, yes.
• 12:55
  Yeah, okay.
• 12:56
  How how many uh Singaporeans were there on the ground with you?
• 13:01
  I was I was responsible for uh a team of 10, including myself.
• 13:06
  10 Singaporeans, yeah, and then we were deployed with the uh school of artillery, okay, uh, together with the Australians.
• 13:17
  So the Australian was the the lead delegation, yeah, and we deployed um um with the Australians.
• 13:25
  So um so I uh other than being the team commander, I was also the um what they call the uh the XO or the deputy for the the entire um allied coalition team, uh which comprised at different points in time up to maybe 17 different countries, right?
• 13:50
  Right.
• 13:51
  Um but basically the Australian commander was the lead and I was the number two.
• 13:58
  Okay.
• 13:58
  Um to mentor the uh Afghan instructors, okay.
• 14:06
  Build up their school of artillery capabilities.
• 14:09
  Okay, yeah, that's what I was gonna ask.
• 14:11
  What your primary mission there was.
• 14:13
  So so you were you were uh like what we used to call a Met team, you were there to to teach them, instruct them, mentor them, that's right, help them develop as artillery, uh artillerymen.
• 14:27
  Um yeah, okay, good, good.
• 14:30
  That helps me set the context, and then the only other question uh is just for audience who may not know, what's green on blue violence?
• 14:41
  So green on blue violence is you know when when in the military, when we use blue, it means own forces, right?
• 14:49
  Friendly forces, yeah.
• 14:50
  And in this case, green represents people who wear the uniform.
• 14:55
  And when we use green on blue in this case, we were referring to the the Afghan National Army, you know, soldiers who belong to the Afghan National Army, so they were known as the green, right?
• 15:10
  And so when we say green on blue, it means uh basically Taliban sympathizers who don the Afghan military uniform, infiltrate into NATO compounds, right, and basically kill uh blue for blue soldiers point blank.
• 15:32
  It's kind of like murder.
• 15:34
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:35
  Okay, so we got that explained, uh, just set in the context.
• 15:40
  And so the last thing before I cut you off was uh a lot of questions from back home about should we be there?
• 15:47
  What is our mission?
• 15:48
  Are we accomplishing anything, right?
• 15:50
  Sort of the idea.
• 15:50
  Well, it's not just that because because of all the violence at that point in time.
• 15:55
  Right.
• 15:56
  Uh, do we continue the mission?
• 15:58
  Okay.
• 15:59
  Yeah.
• 15:59
  So so I mean, what was palpable was you could feel, uh, you know, and and I think you can relate to this, right?
• 16:09
  There are certain moments on the ground uh when you are in a combat environment, very quickly your survival instincts get hold, and you can feel or sense danger even before it happens.
• 16:22
  And during this time, what happened was um you could you could feel that there's this uh danger in the air, you can't quite pinpoint it, and and everyone is kind of uh quiet and you know that uh there is fear all around.
• 16:45
  And and even though I would be walking around to check on my soldiers, even though we were in lockdown, you know, I would randomly throughout the day just you know check in on them.
• 16:56
  Uh you know, it's like even if if I were to tap a guy on the shoulder and say, hey, what's up, right?
• 17:03
  Everyone would would would have this false sense of bravado because that's what the military kind of conditions us to be, right?
• 17:11
  So I'm fine, right?
• 17:13
  But you can see in their eyes, right, that there is fear, there's uncertainty because um, you know, you turn on CNN every every single moment, all you hear is violence, all you hear is ambushes or IEDs going off or you know, someone getting killed.
• 17:32
  And and and and even from the ops and in channels, you you get updates from all across Afghanistan, and and the news is very grim.
• 17:44
  There's really like nothing positive, right?
• 17:47
  But here you are as a commander, you know, you try to put on a brave front, right?
• 17:53
  Because uh that's what we're trained to do.
• 17:55
  But at the same time, also uh because of OPSEC, you don't share anything with home.
• 18:02
  You can't share with your family what's going on.
• 18:04
  You try to reassure them, but you know on on the ground that uh it's it's far from the truth, right?
• 18:12
  But you just don't want anyone to worry, and so you you end up being inside this little bubble.
• 18:19
  And I remember, and it it it was never, yes, I've never been in such a situation before, right?
• 18:27
  I mean, and and that's the difference between let's say coming from the Singapore military, where uh while we try to be professional, while we try to train as you fight, the reality is, you know, there are certain things that as a peacetime military, uh you know, you can kind of if people choose to cut corners, you kind of get away with it, right?
• 18:51
  Yeah, I'm not saying that that that people do, but I'm just saying that because uh that's the difference.
• 18:57
  Uh you know, uh not that you're not trying to be professional about it, but because right, after a while you know that it's peace, right?
• 19:07
  You yeah, and and we're humans, you get level.
• 19:11
  You know, it's simulated on some level, you know, exactly opposition force or whatever it is, and right, and if you've never had combat experience for a lot of deployment experience, you don't know what you don't know, exactly.
• 19:25
  So, yeah, it's real I think you put it well, you try to train as you fight to do the best you can, but there's no way to completely you know prepare someone for what they might experience in in a combat environment, and there were all kinds of different combat environments, like you're Afghanistan and Iraq were these really difficult environments because they they were not straightforward, you didn't always know who the enemy was and who the friends were.
• 19:57
  You had these rules of engagement that were very restrictive and sometimes really dumb, and then you had you know, so it it was it was a very difficult for anybody from to maneuver, and you're often like, What is my job?
• 20:14
  You know, what is how can I how can we and then if you have people that you know that were killed, like an IED or or even injured, the enemy is faceless, yeah.
• 20:25
  You don't know who so you who do you go after, and that's and that's where abuse can easily happen, abuse of civilians and other kinds of things, because soldiers are looking for uh an outlet, somebody to blame, somebody to revenge on.
• 20:42
  And I I saw that in my own uh deployments of you know, it could you get this inside this inside the the cop or the you know whatever you get start to grumbling and complaining, and it is where leadership is really important.
• 21:01
  The good leaders stay very engaged with their soldiers and keep them in in the in the in an honorable framework, you know.
• 21:10
  They keep them from from doing something they'll regret later.
• 21:14
  Poor leadership, I've seen both, um, like get sucked into that themselves, and they began to look the other way.
• 21:24
  Yep, soldiers are abusing civilians or doing things.
• 21:27
  So uh so yeah, it's it's uh you know, you begin to you begin to describe this and shape this, but a lot of a lot of our listeners, a lot of soldiers out there who served in the last 25 years or so experienced these these things, you know, for sure.
• 21:46
  And and and and I'm thankful, right?
• 21:49
  Because I I did not know what I did not know.
• 21:52
  So, but in any case, um because you I knew that I had to face my national command back.
• 22:00
  in Singapore and and advise what the my best military judgment was right to to continue the mission i know i know for at least 24 hours all i knew during the lockdown is pondering over this choice do we do we continue or do we do we end and and and what made it worse was you have to make that choice in the absence of of intelligence yeah right and and so you that's all you can do every waking moment you are deep in thought over it you don't sleep well you don't eat well and and and uh up to a certain point I felt like I was having this interplay of conversations like uh on my right ear the angel will appear and says Chris you went to West Point you know it's the right thing to do right it's all about duty honor country and then doubt creeps in next right and it's like this devil in the year it's like one of those Hollywood movies and he says what are you gonna do if you make the wrong choice and someone killed gets killed on your watch how are you gonna face you know the it's someone's father someone's son's husband someone's brother how are you gonna answer to that and and and you just having this keep having this interplay of conversations but it's actually your brain working over time trying to rationalize that right but up to a certain point I I do not know if I was hearing voices or imagining them but that's how much you are pondering because you know especially that being my first time being thrown into such a situation right uh there's no textbook that teaches you that nothing prepares you for that you just have to figure it out yeah and then and then but in the end right I I guess this is where I'm very thankful for the West Point experience because ultimately it all the choice was was made back to anchored on on on fundamental beliefs and values and and so but I I would say I I tried to appear confident right but I'll be lying to you because you don't know but but you know but yet every waking moment you are very conscious of the weight of that decision.
• 24:39
  And I think that that that's a good point.
• 24:43
  Often you know when we talk about moral injury and and what happened and leaders making bad decisions or we often forget that the leaders themselves can be morally injured because they are dealing with these many many times as a leader you're dealing with uh this no-win kind of situation if I do you know no matter what decision you make somebody's gonna get hurt somebody's gonna get harmed bad things might happen and and leaders are humans they carry this burden with them and often feel mortally injured because of decisions they were forced to make uh either either by higher headquarters or just the situation or whatever it's a no-win situation and in the military it comes down to as on some level at whatever unit they are there's one person who owns that decision I mean she can take input from other people they've got senior advisors and all this stuff but in the end one person makes a decision that then they have to live with so yeah it's it's a huge burden I appreciate you uh sharing that explain I mean that's that's where I mean of course it wasn't at that time that I felt it right because in in combat you have no no time to right to feel sorry for yourself right it's all about the mission um but post Afghanistan yeah you know when I had a chance to reflect on that whole episode that's where I I finally understood the burden of command and why command is lonely because like you say it's you and you alone that has to bear uh the weight of that decision you know it's it's not how you arrive at it right the team can all yeah we're we're behind you sir right yeah right uh but ultimately it's still your core right you you and you alone bear that weight of that choice right and you you you can't make excuses for it you can't wish it away it is what it is you're entrusted with it that's why it makes it lonely and thankfully when we when we decided to proceed and we stepped up everything had come come back down and it was normal and then at this time uh around this time also the the Australians were supposed to rotate out the new team had come in and the the old team was supposed to rotate out but before they could rotate out they needed to be qualified in in in terms of uh weapons proficiency right and so because of the Quran burning incident uh and the lockdown they were delayed and so when we were given the all clear that that immediate Friday we went out to the range and while the Australians were doing their their range qualifications uh myself and and three other team members from Singapore were providing the security and this was a Friday and we had no idea what you know uh we we we did our usual thing everything seemed alright but what felt peculiar that morning that Friday morning was just you know in Afghanistan Fridays is their weekends but the funny thing was I started to see this uh Afghan military convoy of of Toyota pickup trucks you know you don't don't really think too much about it right so it passes later on the convoy comes by again a second time this time you're kind of like hmm okay it's a bit odd but you don't think too much about it and then I can't remember how long but a a third time comes and this time you know uh they're about maybe 800 eight six to eight hundred meters away and this time you you you just find that there's too many coincidences three times in one morning on a weekend on their weekend something's not right right and and you know I but but you know at this point in time you you you kind of recognize bad feelings but even though you can't really pinpoint about it and so quietly I told my team members to get into the vehicle I'll stay out I said just be prepared to move I didn't tell them exactly what happened because your brain is trying to process all these things that's happening right and and I remember that uh uh my brain was screaming about million miles an hour and I was you know war gaming contingencies about you know if if this guy does this what am I going to do because my the protection I was wearing was not gonna stop a 50 caliber bullet right and out of the corner of my eye I see suddenly uh this Afghan soldier he points his 50 caliber weapon behind the toy pickup truck at me I mean the sun is in my eyes right so I'm squinting but and and and you probably have have been in such a situation where you know in the physical world it's a split second yeah yeah right right but in your brain everything is like slow motion right this time duality right and and I kid you not my finger was so close never felt so tight on the trigger but I heard this voice that says Chris don't react don't react and the moment just passes right and and and because you know we had just um gone back to normalcy just immediately uh after the Quran burning incident and I would have become the strategic officer right because even though my ROE said I'm authorized to shoot if I feel threatened but given the context of what had just happened I I'm not sure that would have been a wise choice.
• 31:11
  Right right and thankfully that moment passed right and then I can't remember from a time perspective right but it wasn't too long after we get word that we needed to head back drop everything we're doing and head back to camp right and you know in in in in such moments you know information comes in drips and babs and the Australian commander just said everyone back on the vehicles and then we head back to camp and then we're like driving and at this point in time I still have no clue right other than we're all to head back.
• 31:49
  And I was the number two right and even as the number two the Australian CEO wasn't telling me anything.
• 31:54
  Yeah and then as we're driving back to camp we see everyone else seems to be right you know rushing back to camp as well and it was only after we got back to camp then we realized what had happened was during the five Friday uh lunchtime press after the the press the imams had had had had uh incited um afghans to to rise up and and because of that the whole of of Afghanistan was you know uh you know was violent again right and and thankfully I mean I think I think there was a a one day lockdown but then after that it was back to normal so thankfully right but go ahead yeah no because I was just gonna say that you know but in the in a combat environment by the time you get sensitized to it I realize now your the combat mindset is such that because of survival your brain is just conditioned to process okay when when bad things happen did anyone get killed the anyone get hurt right it's like you go through this checklist did any weapon get destroyed the any weapon get lost no check check check check nope okay it's another good day it's it's a good day and right uh your brain just suppresses everything else but within you the stress builds up the emotional fear builds up right but you don't feel it because your your brain is kind of you know because of our conditioning right it just shuts that up but but you you become like a a spring right you get compressed more and more or like a bottle that's filled with more and more water right and and that stress is building up and but but you know especially as a commander and all that you know training about pain is weakness leaving the body that's that's how your brain starts to process stress right right you you don't feel the emotion right it's so long as no one gets hurt no weapons get damaged it's a good thing and you just you know drive on next mission please right and so that continued to happen and then in the midst of that uh you know of course there was this Florida pastor who threatened to burn Qurans and then we had a spike again a lockdown again you know and and that became the new routine right and and and you know in in in ops most times you're just waiting for things to happen right yeah the rest of the time you're either sleeping going to the gym or just cleaning your gear right you're just trying to keep yourself occupied and and hope that you know a quiet day is a great day yeah you're right so so we have about 20 minutes left and I want to get to uh so take us through like besides what we've already talked about any a a single like critical uh really traumatic or or or like incident that changed you or shaped you and then talk about after you got back and and some of the challenges that you dealt with okay okay so let me let me fast forward uh to my second near death experience the second near death experience happened around 15th of April and uh you know that was the day where um the afghans or the Talibans launched the largest uh coordinated attack um across Kabul yeah and and I just happened to be in the um commander's the school of artillery's uh office we're having our weekly huddle and uh you know four RPGs exploded right across because they were attacking Camp Blackhorse and and his office was the like the closest building to across Highway 7 from from that camp and again right before the thing happened I just felt uneasy couldn't explain it I just kept hearing this voice Chris look down look down look down so I kept looking down looked at my watch and and so you know at about uh one 156 40 seconds the first explosion goes off and 30 seconds later two other explosions go off and a minute later a fourth explosion goes off but when all this was happening same thing right in in the physical world split second again but I felt that in that moment I had an oh I felt like I had an out of body experience and I was looking down on that route but at the same time I felt I was at ground zero like in the movie Matrix if someone had had fired a bullet at me I probably could see the bullet coming towards me in the matrix right you you know that feeling right yeah but it's only a split second and then again that's where I became the day I became Terminator 2000 that's where the training kicked in right and you you you do the same thing check straight check that no one got hurt equipment okay you radio in we're coming in and you walk in and for the rest of the day you have gunfire you have smoke you know your explosions going off you know this is real it's happening but here I was you know I still remember just standing outside my bunk and just taking it all in in wonder because I felt like I was in the middle of a Hollywood movie set.
• 37:47
  So violence goes on but eventually because they have no night fighting capability it goes quiet right at sundown.
• 37:55
  And that's where you know uh every every country had to volunteer four soldiers to to clear room by room to check for booby traps.
• 38:05
  And I found out five years later from my sergeant major that was the scariest point in his life for him because you know this is real it's not training anymore.
• 38:17
  And I remember eventually we we were given the all clear I go back to my barn and by this time you know adrenaline just wears off right and you're just wasted but then that's where it hits you you start to bore like a baby because you realize I was this close to not being able to say goodbye to my wife and it just hits you and and you have no shame about that right in the choir of your own room.
• 38:47
  But of course once you step up it's again that persona that mask right because that's what we do so I mean there's a bit more things but let's fast forward right I come back to Singapore we're given decompression leave you know all seems to be well but the moment I landed I was straight away put into brigade command and I was given the mission hey congratulations Chris you're now gonna assume brigade command you need to get your brigade team ready to fight a two-sided exercise in January so this is May and then you know end of May and I gotta get a whole new team and it's a reserve team ready and so the brain goes into mission planning work.
• 39:34
  Yes right and that's where and and later on I have my you know post-deployment medical and all uh I'm still relatively okay but that's where after you know sometime in between was where my troubles started yeah I I I used to enjoy walking my girls to school sending them to school and and going to school I had to walk this overhead bridge a pedestrian bridge and then you know it started gradually started with my left knee buckling and then my right knee buckling and then the buckling got more frequent so I stopped running and when you know as an active commander when you stop running it's like having your legs chopped off you right and and so emotionally affected psychologically affected but as a commander you don't show weakness right right and then along the way sometimes my right side would be paralyzed you thought it's pins and needles so you don't realize what's going on and I used to have this you know I still do I have this twitch on my right eye right side it's called um hemifacial spasms um and every few months I I I now need to get Botox jabs to loosen the muscles right and so but because you don't recognize what's happening and I do now right it's because my brain was my body was crying out for help because it needed to release that stress yeah so when the strees when the stress gets released it attacks all your weak points and so my knees were buckled because I had knee I had overused knees right yeah my right my right paralysis was because uh in boxing I had you know dislocated it before and it got repaired yeah and then this probably because of overstress yeah you know some some neural connection snapped and caused that right but you you did not understand and then it was also about that time you know uh and the thing is with mental unwellness is it's it's not like a physical wound right a cut you see blood if if you're unwell and you have a if you're you know if you have an infection you have a fever you you touch the head oh it's hot mental unwellness especially of the of the PTSD kind I guess or the moral injury kind it's it it slowly creeps into you and because you're a high performance you're a high performing individual right it's it it doesn't show up because you're wearing that mask in front of troops even though you're hurting inside but yeah but more importantly you're in denial because you don't even know you're not well right but but it's in your moments of darkness that's where you know your brain gets screwed that's where you you you think of bad thoughts that's where you see darkness but because you don't recognize it you don't acknowledge it because I'm an alpha male right I'm a commander you know you know I don't show weakness right and at the peak of my mental dysfunction was sometime in January and I remember one night you know this was like maybe two in the morning trying to drive home from from from the exercise I just felt something wasn't right I pulled up to the side of the road I looked in the rear view mirror right now if if I wing at you right I got no issues with my left eye but when I wing my right eye it takes a bit of effort yeah but in that moment that night I looked in the rear view mirror I try and wing my left eye no problem I tried to wing my right eye try as I might I could not wink it now if you were me in that moment what thoughts would go through your mind I I would probably be panicking like um and and you know you hear like weird things about if you're having a stroke this could happen that could happen.
• 43:45
  I would think if I'm having a stroke am I gonna die probably go to ER right yeah you know what was my response then and then wow so cool and drove that's how far out the brain was it Yeah, yeah.
• 44:02
  Yeah.
• 44:02
  Well, you can take all these years to like suck it up and drive on.
• 44:06
  You can't exactly.
• 44:08
  And that has served you well, actually, if you think about it.
• 44:12
  It was a protection mechanism.
• 44:14
  You know, it served you well, all those combat tours, all the stuff you did in the military.
• 44:19
  And so that's where people have a hard time often changing the rules for themselves.
• 44:24
  Like this set of rules served me well for this.
• 44:28
  Now I'm retired.
• 44:29
  Now I'm not not in the military.
• 44:31
  Now I'm a business person or whatever it is.
• 44:33
  I need a different set of rules to govern my behavior.
• 44:37
  I need to think about I can go get help if I'm having a physical or mental problem.
• 44:42
  You know, I don't have to like in the military, I don't have to hide it because I might lose my job or whatever.
• 44:47
  So just making that change of mentality.
• 44:50
  So right.
• 44:51
  But yeah, go ahead.
• 44:53
  Right.
• 44:53
  So but but even at that point, I didn't know that I was not well.
• 44:59
  I mean, in my last uh six months in service, you know, uh at home, my my marriage was probably at its worst point.
• 45:12
  Uh and and but you don't realize it, right?
• 45:16
  Because you can't see yourself.
• 45:17
  Yeah.
• 45:18
  And and I I I eventually got it, you know, by the time I I retired from all I knew was I could not stay in.
• 45:26
  Couldn't explain why.
• 45:27
  Right?
• 45:28
  I just couldn't ex, I just couldn't stay in.
• 45:32
  And and you know, I I remember that uh people thought that when I left, I left as a very unhappy person because they thought you know I left because I wasn't gonna get promoted or I was being passed over.
• 45:50
  But that was the furthest from my mind, because I actually left with a very grateful heart.
• 45:56
  Right.
• 45:57
  But in that last six months, I got into trouble.
• 46:00
  I even got charged, right?
• 46:02
  And and I I up to that point I had a blemish fee record.
• 46:06
  But and you know, and and but but because all this, unless you have had an experience dealing with mental unwellness, the signs and symptoms are so mild, and yeah, you don't think that there's anything mentally wrong.
• 46:24
  Yeah, it's true, and and and and that's how I ended up leaving.
• 46:30
  And and and basically when I left, all I knew was I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I had no idea what that meant.
• 46:37
  And I made many irrational choices leading up to that point, of course, yeah.
• 46:42
  Right, and and it was only later on because of this grateful heart, I wanted to give back in any way meaningfully possible.
• 46:53
  And one of those was reaching out to um West Pointers, because by then LinkedIn became a tool, right?
• 47:02
  Yeah, and because of Facebook.
• 47:04
  So, what I would do was I would reach out to any Service Academy members, and whenever they came to Singapore, I would reach out to and meet them for dinner, just all right, just to build the relationship.
• 47:18
  Yeah, and it was in one of those moments where you know one old grad said, Hey Chris, because you know, over dinner, what do we share?
• 47:27
  Oh soldiers, war stories, right?
• 47:30
  Right, and I was fortunate because one of these moments, one of these evenings, um, over dinner, I met up with my former sponsor's boss.
• 47:45
  So um, you know, at West Point I was assigned a sponsor, right?
• 47:50
  And and my sponsor's boss was in Singapore.
• 47:55
  He was also a West Point grad.
• 47:57
  Oh, okay.
• 47:57
  And over dinner, uh after we we traded war stories, that's you know, he was the person who introduced me the concept of you know time duality, and he said, Chris, I think you may have some PTSD.
• 48:17
  Right.
• 48:18
  I was like, nah, that can't be, right?
• 48:23
  But I kind of you know started to take an interest to read up about it.
• 48:30
  And then uh over dinner with another West Point grad sometime in uh I think maybe 2015 was where you know we again I said Chris, I think you really need to uh you're you're mentally a bit not well.
• 48:52
  And this time I I really took it.
• 48:54
  That's always good to hear one could be once, right?
• 49:01
  But two or more, uh I think you better pay attention.
• 49:06
  And that's where I I realized after I read up, and uh uh uh the dots slowly connected for me very hazily, right?
• 49:18
  And it would take me on a quest further and until um 2021 was where everything started to make sense for me.
• 49:31
  So I'll give you the short version, right?
• 49:34
  But basically what happened was by the time I left the military, I had I had a broken, my whole body was broken.
• 49:44
  And and all I knew was in my service injury report, because I did not know they were connected, right?
• 49:52
  I just wrote that okay, I had knee issues, I had shoulder issues, I had this facial issue.
• 49:59
  But it it did not I did not realize that they were all linked.
• 50:03
  I know now, right?
• 50:05
  But I I do know.
• 50:07
  So after I came back in May 2012, right, the symptoms started showing uh for about six months.
• 50:17
  I mean uh the the physical pain and all still you know continue, but I I I I know by it took me about two years uh for the physical part to heal, as in my knees, uh even though it may be overused, but it it no longer buckled.
• 50:40
  Right.
• 50:41
  Right.
• 50:42
  Uh my right the paralysis on my right side, you know, they they sent me for acupuncture, they sent me for physio, they sent me for different treatments.
• 50:53
  And it was out of desperation, they sent me for physio, and the physiotherapist was kind enough to spend one and a half hours to trace where exactly was the source of my pain.
• 51:09
  And when he eventually found it, right, it was like somewhere you know, uh deep in in my shoulder blade on my right side.
• 51:21
  When he finds that spot, it's like someone you've got reaching into it, and then there's so much pain.
• 51:31
  And he unknots it, right?
• 51:34
  Yeah, and that's where after that, oh mysteriously, miraculously, all the pain disappears.
• 51:42
  Right.
• 51:44
  So and he said, and he was marveled because that's not a spot that was ordinary, right?
• 51:52
  But he said, as long as he heals you, I'm happy.
• 51:55
  So so it took me two years to heal physically, and I know then um it it took me six years to heal cognitively, and it took me another um it took me eight years to heal uh uh emotionally, and this was in 2022, right?
• 52:19
  And and uh sorry, at the end of 2021, because what had happened in 2021 was um I I lost my brother to COVID, and he was not discovered until four days later because our system was just overwhelmed.
• 52:40
  And three weeks after that, my dad passed on from a weak heart, and so you know, somehow it's when human tragedies happen, is also where healing happens, I guess.
• 52:54
  Yeah, and and and so when my dad passed on, um I so so when I said that I had healed cognitively was when I started to you know have an idea, a theory of of what exactly happened to me.
• 53:14
  Right.
• 53:15
  But it was only uh from the double tragedy of my dad.
• 53:20
  Because I uh when my dad passed on, I I made sure that I would grieve.
• 53:27
  Because what had happened was I realized at that point in time um that somehow, and this is when perhaps the moral injury part comes in.
• 53:40
  Because I lost my mom when when I was 13, and I was too young to understand what was going on, that's one, and number two, uh, I had just gone to the equivalent of high school, and we were studying literature, and I had this unexplainable obsession to brutus, and it was you know, the the character of Brutus was exhibiting stoicism, and this is where having a bit of knowledge becomes very dangerous, yeah.
• 54:13
  Because I was infatuated with Brutus, right?
• 54:15
  So when my mom died, oh, stoicism means I don't cry, I don't shed a tear, and so I bought up everything up inside, and I realized now I had carried this guilt of not grieving for my mom for 25 years, yeah.
• 54:31
  And so when my dad, during my dad's funeral, as a Chinese, we have this symbolic crossing of the bridge, which represents um crossing from the physical world to the spiritual world, right?
• 54:45
  And I made a conscious reminder to myself not to hold back and to really let it go.
• 54:53
  And that's what I did.
• 54:55
  Also I thought.
• 54:56
  Yeah, and also I thought, right, and then I reconnect with a friend, and and this friend at this time somehow has this crazy weird idea, he says, when I broke the news to him, because we had not caught up for like over a year, and he just told me, Chris, you need to bask in the emotion.
• 55:17
  I'm like, what the hell is that?
• 55:19
  Basking in the emotion.
• 55:22
  I'm like, right?
• 55:25
  My language was still very colorful then, right?
• 55:27
  Yeah, you can imagine what was going on in my mind.
• 55:30
  Yeah.
• 55:31
  But then suddenly I realized as I was trying to understand basking in the emotion, I realized that even though I thought I had not held back and cried, I did not realize that that protection mechanism was so strong that even though I felt that I had let go and I cried my heart out, it had kicked in without me realizing it.
• 55:59
  And so even though so I I came under this illusion that I had let go and I had closure, but because of that, you know, such strong protection mechanism, right?
• 56:12
  It was suppressed.
• 56:15
  And it was only Christmas Eve 2021 when I reconnected with one of my West Point classmates that I lost contact for four years.
• 56:27
  And he told me his story because he had just been released from prison.
• 56:32
  And that was a guy who had become a contractor, not of the, you know, to serve in Afghanistan, but not the mercenary sort.
• 56:42
  Yeah, right.
• 56:43
  He was doing a very decent and honorable job of cleaning surgical field hospital and of all places kosh.
• 56:52
  And he did that for four years to the point where he did not realize his brain was probably screwed because after a while he said everywhere he turned, all he saw was red.
• 57:05
  Because he said, Chris, you don't understand how much blood is lost every day in those hospitals.
• 57:12
  It's a seal of red.
• 57:14
  And so he probably went back stateside with his brain mentally unwell, some form of PTSD.
• 57:21
  And it was probably upon his return, you know, uh eventually his marriage broke up.
• 57:28
  And so when I had reconnected with him and met him while I was in in Florida back in 2017, he was he was he was he was pining for his wife, and without knowing any better, I said, Hey, if you really love her, you know, do what you can and you know make it up with her.
• 57:48
  And in some ways I feel kind of bad because maybe he did follow up on that.
• 57:54
  But in in one of those encounters, the wife accused him of rape, and his only witness was his then seven-year-old son.
• 58:07
  And the prosecutor wanted to make an example of him right and wanted to give him maximum sentence.
• 58:17
  And he said, Chris, what would you do if you were me?
• 58:21
  You know, do you put your son up on the stand and if he is able to help you win your your innocence, how would his mom appear in his eyes for the rest of his life?
• 58:37
  And and if if he tried and he lost, then he would be blaming himself for the rest of his life that he caused his dad to go to prison.
• 58:50
  And then he said, Chris, while I was in prison, you know, I rediscovered faith.
• 58:54
  I learned to be uh uh uh a craftsman, right?
• 59:00
  Uh I learned a trait about you know in the construction.
• 59:05
  But then when I got released on good conduct and all, they said I had to wear, you know, because I was a sex offender, yeah, I had to wear uh an anchor bracelet.
• 59:18
  And he says I had to wear that for five years before they would take it off.
• 59:24
  And in Florida, you can't get a contractor's license unless you have a clean record after five years, and that's five years after the bracelet is removed.
• 59:36
  And he says, that's ten years.
• 59:39
  How am I expected to live and survive?
• 59:42
  Right.
• 59:43
  And I remember, you know, this was Christmas Eve of 2021, and and and I cried with him because one one thing that I have as part of my healing is I have this ability now to feel very deeply at the emotional level for what another person is going through.
• 1:00:04
  And I cried with him, and and that year it hit me particularly hard too, because I know he was the third person, you know, one Singaporean and two Americans, because of PTSD that cannot be proven, right?
• 1:00:22
  Ended up in jail.
• 1:00:25
  Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  And and and in that moment, all the dogs connected for me, and that's the video that I sent you.
• 1:00:33
  Yeah, I appreciate that.
• 1:00:35
  We're uh we're basically out of time.
• 1:00:37
  I love the story and uh sharing uh all that you experienced and and your healing journey and how long it takes.
• 1:00:50
  Um, you know, you had the physical was three years, but cognitively and emotionally was seven, eight years.
• 1:00:57
  So um, you know, it it brings up the point of and and what we experience a lot with mortal injury in veterans is they're often getting physical care but not being treated for the mortal injury, those mental um difficulties and emotional difficulties, because moral injury is both mental and emotional, spiritual and psychological.
• 1:01:20
  And so for veterans, they need to understand this is a long process, this is gonna take time, and it's a daily sort of battle.
• 1:01:30
  For providers, we try to help them understand that you need to have a long-term relationship with your client until they decide, be willing to have a long-term relationship with your client until they decide they don't need you anymore, right?
• 1:01:47
  And it's not one of those, it's not one of those, hey, let me get three or four sessions and then we'll be done, we'll move on.
• 1:01:55
  It's not like a physical doctor where we can see a couple times, give you some pain med, you know, and then move on to the next page.
• 1:02:03
  It doesn't work like that when you're talking about people who have experienced these kind of tragedies and and are struggling.
• 1:02:10
  And the other thing you mentioned, just here as a final point, is that um it wasn't one particular incident, it was a series of events, a time being deployed, a time of constantly being on high alert, constantly being in this commander mindset, constantly being in this um, you know, fencing off emotions to make decisions.
• 1:02:38
  And you have to do well, you have to do that in war.
• 1:02:41
  You you you know, um, but but so moral injury isn't just like, hey, a thing happened and they get morally injured.
• 1:02:50
  It can be in PTSD, same way, it can be as a result of a a series of events or a a time prolonged exposure to certain environments.
• 1:03:01
  Uh a combat environment, could be a toxic leadership environment, could be a toxic marriage or relationship, but over time it develops your mind, it develops these survival mechanisms that don't always serve you well later, and you have to begin to like unwind, uncheck that.
• 1:03:23
  I was just talking to there's a woman that I counsel with on a weekly basis, she had a narcissistic um husband for many years, and she's been divorced, I think, for like 10 years, but she still like hears his voice and the brainwashing, if you will, the stuff she did to her.
• 1:03:46
  And so trying to unwind that is part of the process we're going through and disconnect the past events from the decisions you're making now and the and the mindset that you have now.
• 1:04:00
  So I do it's a great story.
• 1:04:02
  I appreciate you sharing all of it, and uh there's a lot of of great like nuggets that people can get from it that we don't have time to dig deep into.
• 1:04:14
  Um, but I'd certainly be honored to have you on the show again sometime and to really get deeper into some of these things because we just sort of scratched the surface right now.
• 1:04:24
  So uh, but I I appreciate I'm I'm glad I'm glad you came on with this, Chris.
• 1:04:30
  Well, thank you so much, Dan.
• 1:04:32
  I mean, I I do appreciate the the opportunity to share my experience and hopefully when when others listen to it, they you know it raises their own awareness that they may be unwell up there without realizing it.
• 1:04:49
  Because you know, especially all of us, right?
• 1:04:51
  We're conditioned to be alpha males.
• 1:04:54
  That's right.
• 1:04:54
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:56
  It can't happen to me.
• 1:04:58
  Yeah, right.
• 1:05:00
  It happened to him because he's weak.
• 1:05:02
  Yeah, that's right.
• 1:05:06
  That's true.
• 1:05:07
  Yeah, so so that's the that's the unintended consequence of of of of becoming um uh leading a warrior's ethos, I guess.
• 1:05:18
  Yeah, it trains us to to be unfeeling, emotionless, killing machines, but the machine, but the system doesn't know how to rewind and and teach us how to be feeling human beings again.
• 1:05:32
  So that's right.
• 1:05:33
  That's right.
• 1:05:34
  With that note, um, we'll say goodbye to everybody for now.
• 1:05:39
  Um, but uh look forward to other episodes and uh thanks, Chris.
• 1:05:45
  Well, thank you.
• 1:05:46
  Thank you again, Dan.
• 1:05:47
  That's uh I look forward to the next episode and the next chance to contribute again.
• 1:05:53
  Thank you.
• 1:05:54
  Bye.