Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E3 - Oliver's personal story
Transcript
- Oliver Spike Joseph: Hi everybody, welcome back to Really Jewish, our conversation about what it is to be Jewish. If you're back for another listen, welcome back. And if you're here for the first time, Yair and I are delighted to have you. We're returning to our regular schedule. Whatever that means, Yair is still in and out of bomb shelters while in Israel and I'm based in the UK. For the next two weeks, we are looking, we're taking a closer look. at Yair and Oliver, at me and my dear friend Yair. This week we are starting with me. The intention is to just go a little bit deeper and to offer up to listeners a little bit of the journey of how we got here. This really Jewish project is one where we think about big topics that shape the Jewish world and is also a personal examination of who we are and how we're personally affected by our own Jewish lives and journeys in general. I'm excited to share bit of my story and explore a little bit of what it is to be really Jewish and how I live some of the highs and lows with who I am and who I've become. This week, join Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph for Really Jewish. Yair is a law professor in Israel. I am Oliver, a rabbi in the UK. I am religious and Yair is secular. We're inviting you to a conversation that we've had for the last 15 years about being really Jewish. So, Yair, how are you? Yair Eldan: good. I'm so excited towards this episode, really, to hear your story, because it's this week, it's all about you, Oliver. And I'm really curious to hear, you know, a little bit about how you got here. What is it? What is it that makes you, you know, what you are Jewish? And how did Judaism shape who you are? Oliver Spike Joseph: You Next week... Yeah. So it's great to be here. I am a little bit scared about this episode, Yair, because it's exposing and it's a beginning place for kind of what we want to do on Really Jewish. But I'll tell you a little bit of my story, a snapshot. And as with last week's, we're going to into a little bit of learning later on inside our Jewish tradition, a text that I bought. But as... As a kid I was born in North London and we were raised in a pretty nice Jewish family. Interestingly, my parents kind of both came from pretty secular backgrounds growing up. Mum in Manchester, Liverpool, dad in North London. Their religious identity was kind of shaped not unlike I think lots of people, shaped by way of having children. So they had twins together when they first got married. That's me and my sister. And then another little baby, Betsy, a couple of years later. And they were brought to the chuppah, brought to the Jewish marriage by way of their cousin, ⁓ by way Deanne and Derech, who definitely deserve a shout out, who facilitated the possibility they should have a Jewish wedding ceremony with a rabbi. which maybe wasn't, as you say in Hebrew, muvan m'aylav, wasn't an obvious direction for them, but it certainly was something that they willingly accepted. And that was the beginning of their Jewish lives together. I think the key part in terms of the Jewish part, what's really Jewish about my upbringing, was mum's interest in Jewish life, a journey which was... ⁓ involved in synagogue, involved in ritual, initially through the nursery that we went to as children, which was a Jewish nursery, a Jewish Gan and then more and more involved in Jewish life. I think night dinners were very core and key parts of our lives, like a kind of very full table with lots of guests. And I think also... ⁓ just a real strong sense perhaps which was inherent and nothing to do with Jewish tradition, perhaps just more to do with family and in particular mum, that Hachnasat Orchim was like a really core part of our family life, just welcoming everybody. As the house was just pretty full and bustling. ⁓ And think... know, reflecting back on those times. A lot of that was in particular both a sense of welcome in our home, but also a real sense of mum caring for people, which is cool, like cool to grow up with that kind of model, which I think many of my siblings have carried forward. Yair Eldan: No, I'm just... ⁓ The know, ⁓ there's verse, [Hebrew, Proverbs My son, heed discipline of father, And do not forsake the instruction of your the mom transferring of tradition in the families. But also, for me, I also felt ⁓ the love of mom and... her caring ⁓ of the home as a basic feature of my childhood, but intertwined with it was my feeling that there is like a bear hug here that I need to actually be released from ⁓ release myself from it. ⁓ was wondering ⁓ you felt it as well ⁓ It's all about, you know, there was only something positive about it. Oliver Spike Joseph: [Hebrew] Interesting, It's a very interesting question. ⁓ have jump to the end of the story, which is that mum passed away at a pretty young age. I think the time, so ⁓ the end of the childhood phase is like, interesting because in my life, not unlike, ⁓ Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: perhaps lots of children in this generation, but childhood was cut short. So the age of 17, I had cancer. That was the tail end of my childhood. think I, you know, maybe like a lot of boys, like not so mature at that age. And then suddenly, you know, wake up, my life was threatened by my cancer. was at a point of dangerous cancer. Thank God, a very curable cancer. Even in those days 20 years ago, this is the year 2000. And then soon after my treatment ended, mum also got cancer. BRCA related, a kind of genetic related cancer that runs down maternal line. Mum's mum, mum, and later my sister Betsy. ⁓ It's a really cool and key part of my own journey is that never felt ⁓ stranglehold, at least not personally, I can't speak for my other siblings, ⁓ ⁓ care or kind of mum looking down because her was before my ⁓ 19th I think. ⁓ And... The opposite in many ways is that the last 20 years, she's now been not physically here in more parts of my life than she was, actually lived with her. More than 20 years since she passed away. know that part of my life experience has been ⁓ by that lack of reassurance, by that lack of kind of continuity of relationship that mother, the image or the figure of mother can provide. Yair Eldan: So interesting to hear and obviously it's something that I think I cannot understand. My wife's parents passed away in the last five years. Her mother four years ago and her father five months ago. I miss them but... She always says to me, you can't understand the void that I feel. And one of the things that comes up to me now, I'm sorry, it's just, you know, it's when you speak emotionally, it's something about it is very associative. I think about the fact that how much the conversation between us. Which is a lot of a lot of times very emotional and we are both men When we grow and you grew up in England, which is a very I don't know English people don't don't tend to speak a lot about their emotions and Israelis, of course, there's something about masculinity and Patriarchy that is very you know, we are consumed with it but with us I think part of being open about ⁓ is connected to the fact that we are, that the Jewish identity is very strong with us. mean, there is something about it, I think, the fact that we are learning lot of Gemara, of Talmud and ⁓ Mishnah, is something about these texts that ⁓ just up ⁓ a of emotions. ⁓ obviously you can ignore it and just... ⁓ you know, refer to them as legal texts, but I think something about it is, very, you know, opens you to an emotional conversation. Oliver Spike Joseph: So, and I want to get into that. I think that's absolutely right. Listen, how did I get here? I think after mum passed away, I think 2002, 2001, terrible with dates, I wanted to do work in the world that was meaningful. And that really, it didn't happen straight away, but that was my journey to be a rabbi. 2006 I think, by 2006, 2008 maybe, I was already in Israel, not very far away from you in Jerusalem and on that path. So there's something about associatively, there's about Jewish study, which exactly what you describe, that permits and welcomes that broad... perspective on life. And that aspect of examination and searching, which is so present both inside the text and I think to a degree we're permitted inside our Jewish community. So I definitely relate to that. The possibility of traveling with the tradition as a support and as a caring fellow. Yair Eldan: That's what I wanted to ask you. Was there something therapeutic about it? I mean, for you, mean, to actually endure, you know, and accept your life through religion? Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, it's interesting. think it's fair to say here, when I went to Yeshiva, I was in study, but I didn't become that from (relgious) that quickly. think it's been from in Jewish is religious. I think it's been a long journey now more than almost 20 years. And I am definitely probably more religious each and every year, which is, ⁓ a bit wild and a bit bonkers, but feels like a very natural and slow journey. I started keeping Shabbat, but I wasn't that crazy from at the beginning, that crazy religious at the beginning. But in a subconscious way, I just needed a life of ⁓ journey. And I worked politics for a little bit immediately after mom died, I got my degree, not in that order. and studied politics at university, I was a mess. When I look back at those four years of university immediately after mum died, I was not in a good space. I didn't really tell anybody where I'd come from the fact that mum had just died. I had friends and some lovely friends, but was a messy journey. And I think coming out the other side of that, ⁓ traveled to Canada for a year, ⁓ was really healing because I kind of got to start again and meet new people and be... a new person, you all of these moments are important, but the Taalich, the journey of arriving in Jerusalem and starting study in the warm embrace of many friends and rabbis. Rabbi Joel Levy gets a shout out, one of my close ⁓ who really cared for me. And that journey hasn't stopped up until today. And the journey is still one of healing and coping. and surviving. Yair Eldan: But when you about, you the process you are, you know, or your life, you say you become more ⁓ Frum meaning, you actually commit yourself more mitzvahs (commandments), right? Or to more rituals or the details mitzvah. That's what you mean, right? ⁓ What does that... mean, how do you think that... ⁓ affects you or why do you think you become more fru. That's my question. How does religion actually, you know, what's its role in your life? Oliver Spike Joseph: So I think October ⁓ has been a very, has been very impactful on this house, ⁓ my family life. ⁓ me back up one second and just tell the ⁓ part of the story ⁓ that we have chronology. There's no early or late in the image of the rabbis in the Torah story, but I like to keep a little bit of chronology here. ⁓ last part of the story. ⁓ Yair Eldan: short Oliver Spike Joseph: in terms of like formative moments is that my little sister also got cancer, a connected genetic cancer that she also in her late twenties. you ⁓ know, fought a good against that cancer, but ultimately also passed away. And that was, a very difficult journey because it was also coincided with my last two years of rabbinic studies in Los Angeles. I left. Jerusalem after five years and went to Los Angeles to finish my studies. It was a crushing time for me because it was, you I guess when you finish seven years of study, that's could be a celebratory time and it really coincided with her getting very, very sick and ultimately passing away in August 2015. I graduated from my rabbinic studies and got Smicha (rabbinic ordination) just a couple of months earlier. But the... That journey was also incredibly difficult. I can make the argument that when Betsy passed away, I was at least better equipped for the journey than maybe as like a 19 year old man, you know, those years, 15 years earlier. But it was tough and also emerged pretty messed, pretty messed up in the years after Betsy passed away. I became a rabbi, I started working as a rabbi. I also became a husband and a dad. And that's also been a really fascinating journey of which we could probably spend, we probably will spend a whole episode talking about raising children and being good partners. Those are both two good topics to get to. Yair Eldan: By the way, we were in touch already when Betsy passed away and I remember those years. I remember your emails. I remember that it affected you immensely and I was worried about you. I remember my worries and it was a very difficult time, Oliver Spike Joseph: So the question you are just then to return to the question you asked was about why more from I think it's in part of it's quite straightforward in terms of raising kids. I think when you raise kids, thank God we have three young children now I thought about tradition and religious life in different ways because I want my kids to see and live a certain part of the tradition. And to see it in front of their eyes. If we're talking about saying the Shema, I want them to see people in prayer. If we're talking about Tefillah (prayer) at synagogue or the reading of the Torah, I want them to see those things. If we're talking about festivals, I want them to experience that. That's new experience for me as a relatively new ⁓ six years into ⁓ But I also think ⁓ it relates to the text that I'm about to teach. The text that I'm about to teach is from Derech Hamelech from the Esh Kodesh, a teacher that I often teach from. Piaseczno Rebbe from pre-war Poland just outside Warsaw ultimately becomes known as the Warsaw ghetto Rebbe and In the 20s he's writing a book or his sermons are being recorded Which ultimately get turned into a book called Derech Ha'melech (the way of the King) if you're watching on the YouTube I'm holding the book up But he refers to maybe I'll get into the text and answer your question. He refers to standing at the center of the Garden of Eden, standing at the very center and sampling the flavors and the tastes and the fruits of the Garden of Eden. And he describes that many of us spend our whole lives on the outside of the garden looking in. My image is always of like a picket fence of like kind of lifting your chin up and peering over into the beautiful garden, but never stepping into the garden. And for me, that's a part of Jewish life. I think I feel spiritually elevated inside many of the mitzvahs that I try and push myself towards. And I take pride in living that journey. And I find the kind of structure of ma'arechet ha'mitzvot, like the structure and the integrity of this. ⁓ protective shell or protective structure of the Mitzvot (commandments) To be healing and holding. And I can't escape from the fact that in a very personal way, respective specifically to my cancer and mum's cancer and Betsy's cancer specifically, and then raising family on the back of that, like still in strength and love and care for my partner and for my kids. that that structure has been incredibly nurturing, incredibly supportive. For me personally, can only, in that I can only talk about my own personal journey. Yair Eldan: Wow, thanks. Thank you. ⁓ Listen, as a secular, maybe I don't know if it's surprising or not, but I find myself a lot of times using Psalms in order to just react to the very harsh reality I'm living in, both personally and nationally. I'm just using... approach to God, know, to tell him about, I mean, I don't believe in that, but I still approach him and I say, [Psalms, 10:1] poet of Psalms says, ⁓ do you stand afar, God? ⁓ I do say it and there is something therapeutic it. ⁓ But I think, going back to my question about mitzvahs and about being more frum, I feel, as a secular Jew that I spent a lot of time studying Jewish texts, I feel that there was a transition from the Bible, which was, I think, very simple but very... There is something genius about it, you know, the fact that people in the Bible, when they have a problem, they just, you know, they pray, they pray. you know, we spoke before this session about prayer and, you know, there is something about prayer that is very basic. And even me as a secular, are, you know, I feel it very strongly. But when the rabbis came and they did this, you know, the transition to a whole legal system with rules and... sub rules and all these details. think something in this specific thing, the dealing with suffering, with depression, with mental illnesses, know, that we all, not illnesses, but mental collapses that we have each one of us in our lives. I mean, the dealing I think is... is not as good as the Bible because you know the rabbis what they did is that they said to you listen we understand that you have a problem and they validated it as you know if they say you know according with hametz that is forbidden on Passover) ⁓ you need to check the hametz in cellar but only two rows ⁓ why because if you will start to think what will happen a rat took the hametz from here to there, ⁓ me as a secular, it's beautiful because they say, you know, we validate your ⁓ ⁓ we say to you, listen, you don't have to take it too far, which is nice, ⁓ when you think about it, ⁓ this validation, ⁓ ⁓ are more areas ⁓ the religion that does it, this validation, what it does, ⁓ disconnects you from your suffering, from your rough suffering, because everything becomes a mitzvah, everything becomes a ritual. And then it disconnects you from your suffering and this is very bad for a person because ⁓ order to heal yourself you need to be in connection with the suffering. I mean, I'm just as a secular saying something about mitzvahs and this. I ⁓ a of saying that but I understand that for religious people this ⁓ frumeness, going into the details, there is something therapeutic about it. Oliver Spike Joseph: I think for me that's exactly the point. It's good. So from connecting with Pesach already we haven't even got to our Ha'Chodesh the month before and you're already giving drash (interpretation) about ⁓ ⁓ I challenge on each of the levels your secularness ⁓ your lack of belief in God. ⁓ Yair Eldan: Right. ⁓ All right. Oliver Spike Joseph: ⁓ Ain l' d'var sof is exactly a description also of When ⁓ I, or it sounds like even you, turn to Psalms, in ways ⁓ that's exactly what I'm turning to, the Ain Sof, that the God is without without ⁓ And... ⁓ For me, that's the mitzvah. I don't see it as switching off. Literally in recent months, I've been reapplying myself in ways of prayer. It's like I'm not a good person in Tefillah. I really struggle there. I love going to shul on Shabbat. Most of the time now, because we're with kids, I'm not really in shul on Shabbat because kids are climbing the walls and trying to trash stuff and doing crazy things. But I do love being in Shul (synagogue) on Shabbat and certainly hearing the Torah reading. But the Tefillah (prayer) is hard for me. But when I stand and say the Amidah in the morning, now in like trying to reacquire some of the parts of my own prayer life, meaningful. That's not for me denying my own process and hiding from, in your description, like my own pain. For me, that is suspending myself in the end, so suspending myself in a knowledge of how little I understand about the world. And a knowledge of ultimately the ultimate questions of who I am and where I will go after I live this short life don't belong to me. The answers don't belong to me. That's for me, that's God. Do I believe in God in the way that you're describing? I don't know. I don't know whether I believe in God, but I do believe in the... power of suspending our own knowing and lending some of that to God. Us being the knowing people and the aspect of God being like the not knowing the essence of the world. Yair Eldan: want to hear more about the text of the Aish Kodesh. So let's go back to this. I just want to comment and say think ⁓ ⁓ vows. In the Bible, know, people who vow, ⁓ can't ⁓ the vow. You're ⁓ because everything you say you have ⁓ actually do. Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay. Yair Eldan: the rabbis with their wisdom, they created a system of, devaluation of vows. You can cancel the vow ⁓ if you go to rabbi, you explain why you did the vow, and he can actually, ⁓ with ⁓ another two he do hatarat nidarim, right? He can ⁓ cancel the vow. But I'm saying is ⁓ that... When a person commits to something and he vows, obviously he's in a very bad mental, in a very, in mental state that is either depressed or he wants to take control over his life. Or he's very happy, which is also a very extreme mental situation. But in the rabbis, what they did is... actually take a lot of powers to themselves because everyone is actually dependent on them and everyone is actually supposed to tell them their deepest and craziest inner self. here's another example where there's a disconnection to the suffering itself. I think they meant good, they meant well, they obviously went also they want a lot more power but I think, I mean, as a secular Jew, I feel that the whole connection to suffering through mitzvahs is a bit distorted. That's my feeling, but I hear you in what you said. Oliver Spike Joseph: So the bit that I relate to in the text, really seems to be shaping our different approach, is the aspect of Kinyan. So the text says, that we give of ourselves to Torah. And the image is a bit like a marriage ceremony that the Torah, the edifice of the Bible and maybe mitzvah gives themselves to us and we give of ourselves to the Torah. And the reason why I kind of like the text is because it's that description of all in. You know, as a rabbi in community, I don't often tell people to be all in because people would laugh in my face. But there's an aspect of ritual and religious life that demands a kind of stepping into that like structure of life. And it's hard to be in that. It's hard to understand all of the different aspects of that world unless you're in that world. That's the image of stepping into the garden. You know, when I think of, you know, Betsy's life of blessed memory, she like really, she lived on a yoga retreat the last couple of years of her life in New Zealand. And that was a similar thing. Like if you want to understand yoga in a full way, not just yoga where you go and sit on a mat for an hour on a Thursday morning, but yoga as like a practice, you have to get inside it. You have to use the philosophy of yoga in the way that you chop wood or sweep leaves or eat in all of the different parts. And Judaism has that in spades. Like Judaism has that almost to an extreme. But you know, when I... When I study the Aish Kodesh or when I get involved in a Talmudic text, so many different parts of the ⁓ are the touch points of Jewish practice. So it's ⁓ maybe I'll ask that question back to you, Yair because when you're studying these texts as a lawyer and as a hacham, or somebody who ⁓ Jewish law and secular ⁓ what does it mean when you study a text? But in this context, you're kind of, are looking, it says in the text like, like you're looking on the text, there's like from above or from aside, looking at the project of Jewish life from, in this context, from an academic vantage point. So how does that work into your kind of own identity and how you live your life then? Because I'm interested, because for me, I'm getting more inside and you're saying, I'm okay from out here. Yair Eldan: So interesting. I mean, obviously I love in this text of the Aish Kodesh I love the fact that there's a relationship, there's ⁓ reciprocity between God and Israel. I mean, for me that's basic. I ⁓ God in search of man, yeah? That's better for me than ⁓ one-sided relationship ⁓ someone that just, you know... gives you orders from above, ⁓ obviously. And I also love in the way you actually described Betsy in the yoga retreat, really, it's so, I mean, that's the point, to give yourself to someone, to something or to someone, which is such a challenge for us as modern people, just to give yourself totality in a way. ⁓ But at time, I feel a little bit distant ⁓ the fact that I felt suffocating when I read the text. I felt that there is no space for me, for Yair. mean, he describes a relationship that encompasses everything. ⁓ ⁓ a way, I feel that the problems between secularists in religious people in Israel these days connects to this point because I feel that religious people became with no space. mean that religion actually encompasses everything and you can't in a way you can't have a conversation because there's no space for a person inside of this religion. know religion can be a part of your life I feel. I mean that's what I feel. I understand the fact that you want to give yourself in total, but when it comes to religion, I think there is something very wrong about humanity or humanism in terms of that. And I just want to say with regard to your question, when I read these texts, when I learn them, first of all, obviously there is something about identity. There is an echo from the past that I need as a human being. But there's also something reflection, reflective about me. I I feel that these texts are, not all of them, but a lot of them are, you know. written by very smart, very interesting people who were very ⁓ interested in the things that I'm interested in and I have a lot to learn from them. the study is actually for me a way of, as you said, in the beginning of the session, is a way for me to understand myself better. Oliver Spike Joseph: So I'm going to try and draw us to a close just on this conversation. And we've got some shout outs just before we close. Just tell me like another sentence or two Yair on where you're left from these texts. I think we smashed it. I think this has been a very interesting conversation. I shouldn't say that too often on the podcast. ⁓ I really think we framed like two sides of the story of where we both come from in this context. But where are you left Yair? Yair Eldan: I mean, there is something about... I didn't say that, but it's also true because there is something a bit... I don't mean to be indulgent in my own self, but to be... It's fun to study Torah, for me. I enjoyed studying Talmud when I was young. There is something that is just joyful about studying Torah. It's connected also to the reflection, it's connected to the intellectual stuff, but there is also a joy. And that's why, I I always understood deeply the fact that when you mourn in avlut, you're not supposed to study Torah. I always understood it, you know, thoroughly, deeply. Oliver Spike Joseph: So I think that's a really helpful segue for me. think what I take away from this is that I have used maybe selfishly my own rabbinic journey as a way to externalize some of that process. think I live a very full and life today. ⁓ ⁓ think by ⁓ segments of teaching and segments of learning to like externalize some of the more difficult parts of my own life. That's helped me to grow, to grow from them. And I think we've done a little bit of that as a modelling today, like looking at the page, talking about our own story and our own journey. And you you were talking about the nitzozot those sparks that are found somehow are up. And there's healing that comes of that. So thank you. I'm going to move us forward. A new segment that we want to bring just in the last couple of minutes here is Feedbackim. Feedbackim in Hebrew is feedback. I just want to share a little bit of what people have been saying about the podcast from the streets. We're very grateful for our listeners and even more grateful when listeners are in contact just to say ⁓ what their experience of the podcast is. we get to improve the podcast and also just generally have a more interactive space and responsive space in relation to what we're teaching, what we're talking about on Really Jewish. So Eva from Leeds said, "what bad luck to have war break out just after you launched your first episode. I'm glad you didn't become instant experts on Iran, which is all too common She also actually offered a critique of like perhaps getting to the point a little bit faster in the podcast, which we try and achieve today, which was a very helpful feedback just to get stuck into the material that we actually want to look at. Eddie Kaplan, who's one of my dad's friends ⁓ who's in London, said he really enjoyed it and said that he thinks we could be a thing, which is exciting. And then Lea from Radlet said she had Nachas (pride) and she's looking forward to the next podcast coming along. And she said that it was very important. that we were holding these conversations in a public way. So really Jewish is getting better by way of your feedback. So send us more and send us questions and also topics that you want us to look at. Before our closing script, do hear a final word from you? Yair Eldan: I feel that we are getting deeper in a way and understanding the medium but also the relationship between us with regard to religion and I'm grateful for that. Thank you, Oliver. Oliver Spike Joseph: really Jewish. ⁓ for ⁓ to Really Jewish ⁓ thanks for your support. If you've got to end of our episode, ⁓ share a video on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook, ⁓ this podcast with other people and offer us a review where you listen to your podcast. We're building this from the wheels up, literally. ⁓ if you want to be on our team or help us with our social media ⁓ any other aspect of recording, We'd love to hear from you. And finally, if you'd like to click onto our Patreon and offer us some financial donation towards the making of the podcast, every Euro or Dollar or Shekel will help us. And us next week for more Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Thanks a lot.