Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / Why Most Law Firm Referrals Fail Before They Start with Delisi Friday
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing, the show. Where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. So let's get into it. So most attorneys want more referrals. But there's another side of that equation which we don't talk about enough. And it's becoming someone who gives great referrals. And my guest today is my friend Delisi Friday. She has spent more than 20 years. Yeah, if you look at her, it doesn't look like 20 years, but she has spent more than 20 years in the legal industry and has built a reputation as a master connector. She's helping lawyers build relationships, make the right introductions, and generate business through referrals. And today we're talking about the art of referring business and how to become more referral and why the best connectors often create the most opportunities. So, DeleC, welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. Hi, I'm so excited to be here with my professional twin. Yes. Yes. Okay. So first question for you is how'd you get into this? Like th this is this is such a niche aspect. How'd you get into that? I got into it because I was born the day my dad became a lawyer. So I was literally born into the legal industry because my dad had his own law firm at the age of 14. My first job was answering the phones at his law firm. And there are probably lawyers who heard that and like cringed because they're like, ⁓ my God, who would put a 14-year-old on the phones in a law firm? Keep in mind it was 1998. Don't do the math. And I grew up in a law firm. So I learned about how you answer phones and what you do at a very young age. How I got into this was back then we didn't have the internet, we didn't have digital marketing, we didn't have Google. We had the yellow pages and we had radio. So when I answered phones back then, my dad taught me every call into a law firm is an opportunity to help someone. I was not allowed to hang up the phone without providing some kind of help to the person who was calling. And so I had a list of lawyers. If my dad and his law firm couldn't help them, I wasn't allowed to hang up the phone. I would say, Mr. Johnson, I'm so sorry. Unfortunately, this isn't a case we can help you with. However, my dad does have a great reputation and network of attorneys. I believe Miss Smith is someone who might be able to assist you. Let me provide you with her information. Or if you like, I can make a transfer and transfer you now. And so I did that since I was a kid. Now, I didn't realize how brilliant that was until I got a little I mean, we could stop this podcast right now, and that is gold for anybody who is listening because you have somebody and and I love how you put it. You have an opportunity to help somebody. And yet it most attorneys are like, Yeah, we can't help you. Kick the curb. Like, if we can't help you, if you're not gonna pay us, get out, right? And you actually had a resource of, hey, here's, you know, here's somebody that my father trusts, or you know. Saying the honorable so-and-so. Yes. And and you know, sometimes when I tell that story, because that is my story. It's really how I got into this. Someone inevitably, because I only work with lawyers, will say, Well, Deleacey, what do you do? And you don't know who to refer them to. Cause there are random kinds of cases, like tribal law, if someone injures themselves and it's property owned by an Indian tribe, that's a very specific referral. I now know who does that. But years ago I didn't. Right. You're now allowed to sue the military for medical malpractice. That didn't become a practice area until I think twenty twenty. So you're not always gonna know who to call. And in those instances, that's where you really rely on your local bar association, attorney referral service, and you say, This is a really unique kind of case. Let me at least guide you to the bar association department and service that can help you. And so I would do that. But a hundred percent of the calls that come into your law firm, someone is looking for help and they called you. And sadly, I think we live in a day and age where we're only thinking of the numbers like how can I convert? How fast can I convert? How fast can I convert? But we are forgetting all the people we don't help that we already paid the time, invested the money and the people into making the phone ring. Why are we not saying, well, how can I maximize that? And that's kind of where where it all came from. I call it the ARC method and it stands for accept, reject, connect. If I can't accept a case, I don't reject them without connecting them to somebody else. And that's what I learned since I was a kid. It's how I became this legal attorney, referral loving nerd that I am. But that's who I am. It's just who I am naturally and what I was born to be and why I love it so much because it's so powerful and you can help so many people when you just look at it through those eyes. ⁓ my God, I love that. Accept, reject, and connect. I mean, like do you reject them because they're assholes or is it ⁓ you know, something else? Okay, do you want What's my reject? Okay, someone asked me, because I I give speeches all across the country. I was in Hamilton, Ohio. Shout out to Krueger and Hodges, who hosted the CLE event, and I give the speech, and this lawyer raises her hand and she goes, Okay, but what do you do if the person who calls is a jerk? And without skipping a beat, I looked at her and I go, You refer them to your arch nemesis. ⁓ my God, was everybody laughing their asses off? For a split second the room got quiet because I did it like deadpan. I was like, You're arch nemesis. And then I just cackled and I'm like, I'm just kidding. And I was just me. But for a split second the room was like, Ooh, she's evil. And I was like, No, I would never do that. I still refer ⁓ to the Bar Association. Let them deal with them. But but, you know, and that whole arc thing is there's action with each of those, you know. And instead of I guess there's action when you don't do anything, because it's like no decision is a decision, right? And not doing anything is really doing something because you're not helping somebody out. And and I love also how you're wired that way. And obviously that comes from your upbringing of being Helpful to other people. And, you know, I know you're the queen master connector that's out there. And but let me ask you this what makes someone a great connector versus someone who simply knows a lot of people? That's a great question. I think the difference is going to be the people who truly use their network to connect people. And identify when those moments happen. And what I mean by that is sometimes there are people who have a great network and they could become a great person who makes referrals on a regular basis. But not everyone is hardwired to listen for it. And if they're not, they have to learn to listen for it. And I think that's the difference, not just having the network, but thinking How can I help this person with an introduction? And not everyone thinks like that. So I think some of it is are you someone who thinks, ⁓ how can I help this person with a connection? Or do you need to join an organization like Provisors and like get that muscle built? You have to practice it and practice it. And eventually it becomes second nature because not everyone does that naturally. you've got to build that muscle so then it feels very comfortable. Cause some people feel uncomfortable making the referral. It doesn't it doesn't feel natural to them because they're like, ooh, I don't I don't know how to do this. Like when I talk to lawyers, I ask them if they ever train their law firm staff how to do referrals. And they're like, no, just just the lawyers in marketing know how to do it. And I'm like, well that's a gap. Your whole office should be able to refer people to your law firm. And what I notice is Those people could do it, but they feel uncomfortable because they don't know what to say or how to make the referral. Yeah. And so I think there is an art of the referral and making that introduction and making that referral feel comfortable for both people and everyone understanding, ⁓ yeah, this makes total sense. I should absolutely be talking to Gary. Yeah. Is there certain things that you teach your clients that are like, hey, do these one or two things that'll propel that forward? You know, to be like, I mean, like you had said, being a good listener is one thing. However, connecting that, no pun intended, but connecting what is this person saying and listening for those opportunities, you know, do you be like, hey, so keep these people in mind or, you know, make sure that, you know, doing something? Yes. So there is a difference between an introduction and a true referral. And an introduction is, hey, I think you need to meet Gary. You guys would really get along. But a referral is when I'm making that introduction, but there is a true need for me to use your services or you to use my services. There is a true reason for us to become connected because something can be gained. And that person making the referral has already identified that. If I just introduce someone, say you should go talk to Gary, you guys would be great connections. That's not a true referral in my mind. That's just an introduction. I don't know if I can help Gary at all. But what I will teach my lawyers is if you know this person has a need, this person needs an estate planning lawyer, this person needs a personal injury lawyer, they need a criminal defense lawyer. Then you can make the introduction and say, Hey Sam, I want to introduce you to my friend Claudia. She is a divorce attorney. I know you are going through some things right now. You're considering getting a divorce. And what does that look like? I'm putting you in touch because if you decide to file for divorce, Claudia can be someone who can assist you. And now that's a true referral because there's a need, and they both know why the introduction is being made and what the purpose of it is. But without it, it's not a true referral. It's it's almost like an introduction or a half referral, but it's not complete because the purpose and the reason isn't there. 100%. I couldn't agree with you more. And I don't know if you get this, but I get introductions to attorneys that are actually referrals, or introductions to attorneys that is truly an introduction, but I have no idea which one it is. And and it sounds like this. Hey Gary and Delisi, I want to introduce you to. Gary, this is what Delisi does. Delisi, this is what Gary does. Hope you two can connect. Now, I think to myself, is there a need? Does Delisi need, you know, marketing coaching? Does she just want to connect like she's a great networker or she knows some people? And you have to make it abundantly clear. Like one of the things I loved it with your example of the divorce attorney is you say, Hey, know you're going through this. So it's it's putting it out there. You're going through this. So that the divorce attorney goes, they're going through this. And you're saying this may be a good fit for you. It's not this is going to be a good fit. This may be a good fit. So it takes the pressure off of the divorce attorney, but it also takes the pressure off of the person who you're referring in because they're like, is this person gonna sell me? Are they just gonna like jam this down my throat? Are they gonna be aggressive? You know, and then the flip side, if it's an introduction, let them know why the f are you introducing us? You know, because and I love this example. Let's say that I was a life insurance person. Okay. And you are you. And you know, all of a sudden Fred introduces us. Fred goes, Hey, Gary and Delicey, I want to introduce you to. Deleci, Gary sells life insurance. Gary? Teleisi is a marketing coach for attorneys. Hope you two can connect. You're gonna think, did I say I wanted life insurance? Yeah. I don't want to talk to Gary. So what's gonna happen? The point of that introduction is to bring two people together. Guess what? You're not gonna respond to that email because you're gonna go, fuck no, I ain't responding to this because I don't want an introduction to a life insurance person because I already have enough life insurance, right? Now. Yes. Same introduction, but with a just a twist at the end, which is, hey, I want to introduce you to this is what each other does. The reasons why I want to introduce you to is because you both work with attorneys. You both have vast networkers. You both are master connectors. I think you guys would get along well and could share your networks. Hope you two can connect. Totally different thing, right? You're not thinking I'm gonna sell you life insurance. And it's and and my whole point on that is to go to your thing is you gotta make sure that the referral and the introduction are clear. Make sure it's abundantly clear why the am I getting this email on the other side? Or why am I getting introduced or referred over to the LC? Like, I wanna know, you know, because if there's that mystery, you're gonna come in with a certain mindset going, ⁓ Gary's a potential client. And I'm gonna come in. With the put the dukes up, don't you sell me anything, and then I'm not gonna be open and the conversation's not gonna be good, you know. We don't even know what kind of conversation we're having. Cause then we get on and we're like, Hi. Yes. So nice to meet you. Like we don't know. Yeah, I'll say By the way, Deleacey, why did Sean introduce us? Just out of curiosity, you know. And and then when you go, I got no clue. Okay, good. I'm glad I'm not the only one. That breaks the ice. That goes the okay, he's actually not gonna sell me. ⁓ that's good. Okay. I I'm I'm in my comfort zone now. Then we can actually connect. Then we can have a real conversation instead of the surface level bullshit, you know, that we and I think your point is so good. That that one line where you say why you're making the introduction helps someone understand is it an introduction or is this a referral? And that's so key. The challenge is a lot of people don't know how important that line is. And sometimes they don't even know. Like they have this feeling like, ⁓ I really think I should connect these people, but I can't like put it into words. I'm gonna let them figure it out. But it doesn't make the referral ⁓ a true referral until we both agree we know why we're here. There is a need. Let's have this conversation. And I think that's also important. So both people show up understanding what the conversation's gonna be about. Because how I show up to talk to someone about what I do and who I help is vastly different than Deleace, who shows up and says, Hey Gary, so tell me about yourself. Yep. Yeah. I I liken it to someone once when I worked at Hadamange, a small law firm, they said there's a difference between networking and net socializing. Not socializing. I'm out there and I'm just socializing. Networking, I am working that room and I know exactly what I want and I'm gonna get it. But if I go in and I'm just not socializing, I'm just shaking hands, saying hello with no clear purpose. And I value my time, I also value the time of the other person. I want to know why we're there and let's make the most of it. Totally true. When you are meeting with people, are you always thinking about who can I connect them with? No, because sometimes sometimes when I talk to ⁓ it just happens. I'll give you an example. I so I have these conversations every single week. When people hear what I do, they introduce me to people all the time. And sometimes I don't know if it's an introduction or a referral. I'm just trying to figure it out on the call. And the other day I met someone who I thought I wouldn't have any connection to. I don't need his services. The introduction happened and this happens a lot with me where someone says, ⁓ I bet if I introduce him to Delecy, Delisi could send them a lot of business. And I understand why that happens, but for me, like referring business puts my name and my credibility in play as soon as I do that. So it's gonna take a bit. You're gonna have to earn my referrals before I just hand them out all willy-nilly. Cause it takes years to build a legacy and seconds to lose it. I'm not gonna lose that because the referral goes bad. And so I had this meeting. I wasn't sure what the call was about. He said, I'd love to earn your referrals. I said, Let me be honest. It is going to take some time. I just met you. And so my network is. Well, he appreciated the honesty. That's And then he was describing what he offers in his services. And when he did that, that's when I knew exactly who to connect him to. Cause he said something and I was like, I now know who your best friend is. And I told him that. And then when I made the introduction, he was like, that's absolutely going to be my new best friend. And I was like, I know. I know. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Hence why you're such a fucking great connector. You're like, you're like, hey, I see it. I see it. You know? So obviously attorneys, a lot of attorneys want to get more referrals. And one of the things that you pride yourself on is you have to give in order to receive, right? Why is that? It goes back to the psychology behind it. It's the rule of reciprocity. And the rule of reciprocity for anyone who's listening and is not aware, the best example I can give is during the holidays. When someone gives you a holiday gift and you don't have anything to give them, you feel uncomfortable because you want to reciprocate that gift with a gift. If you do not feel that you are a monster and you need some therapy. Everyone feels that. It's very natural to feel like, ⁓ man, I gotta give Gary a gift back. He got me a gift. That was so kind. And so you have to give first for the law of reciprocity to work and then do what it does for someone to feel like they need to do something in return. And sometimes that doesn't mean referring you business right away. Because some people may not have it. I think there's true value and even someone making the right introductions. I may not need you to refer me business, but if you make some really solid introductions, I see a true value in that too. And so I think you have to give before you receive. So the law of reciprocity can happen. I also think it's because Everyone is always talking about what's in it for me. If I want to earn referrals, that other person is like, Well, what's in it for me? If I refer Delecy Bennett business, what's in it for me? When are you gonna refer back? Yeah, exactly. If I give them nothing, they're gonna be like, ⁓ this is just a one sided relationship. I naturally think like this because people are like, ⁓ I want to meet Deleace so she can refer me all these cases and all these lawyers. And I think very naturally, great, but like, what's in it for me? Why am I going to do this? However, if you constantly introduce me to people, if you constantly refer people to me, I am now going to feel uncomfortable if I don't refer someone back. You and I met through David. David has been a wonderful connector for me. He has introduced me and referred me several lawyers already. I feel uncomfortable. I have not yet been able to refer someone to him who can use his services. I keep thinking to myself, God, I gotta find someone to send to David because I feel it. I'm like, ⁓ I gotta return this favor. I gotta return this favor. And that's what you want. You have to give before you receive. Yeah. Yep. I totally agree. And by the way, anybody listening to this that needs accounting and bookkeeping work, David Soldano, he's in Texas. Yes. Just reach out to Lacy and she will introduce you to her. I will introduce you to Mr. David Saldano Bernie, Texas. It's true. So what if what if s what you're and this is I don't know if it's controversial, this is something that I have a fairly strong opinion on and it's very like contrarian to what most attorneys want to hear. And that's this. You come to me and you say, Hey Gary I need an estate planning attorney. This is what I'm trying to do. This is what I'm trying to accomplish. Great. And I send you three names. Is that okay? I think should you do should I do that? I think it is. But I only think it is if you tell them you're sending them three people and why you're sending them three people. I have done that before when it comes to personal injury referrals because I have a vast network of personal injury attorneys. And I will say I'm gonna refer you three names. Here's why. This person is really great at this. This person is this, and this is the person if you want this. I encourage you to have a conversation with all three. And find out which one is a good fit for you. Why? Because no one is for everyone. I might think referral number one is the right person for that person. But what if referral partner number one just rubs them the little bit the wrong way? We're not really sure why. They just don't mesh. They don't have that Gary and Delecy vibe that you and I had the second we met. That's magic. Not everyone can replicate that magic. So I'm okay with sending two or three because it's up to that person to decide who is the best fit. Now sometimes I know right away it is this person, it is only this person, and I'm gonna tell you exactly why it's that person. But yeah, if I have multiple people in my network that could be a good fit for you, and it's really just up to you to determine who is the one who's gonna serve you the best, then that's up to that person to decide. And so I like I would never do more than three though, because that's just too many decisions. I would do two, three at the most. That's my opinion. I want to hear yours. You see, that was a good that was a fantastic answer. Probably one of the best answers because what I typically hear from attorneys is I want to cover my ass. I don't want any liability. I don't want it to come back on me. So I give them three. And it's very traditional. Three, three, three. And what I tell them is When somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I need an estate planning attorney, you should be asking five, six, seven different questions to ⁓ really identify, like, are they do they want to work with a male, female, local? You know, it doesn't make a difference where they're at. Is this high net worth? Do you have a business that's in there? Do you it i is it to protect your kids? Do you have kids? Do you have that, you know? And so therefore, I'll go, okay, I got one for you. However, If that one doesn't work out, I got two right behind it. Because what I've gotten feedback from, and this is actually feedback from attorneys who they come to me and they say, Hey, do you know a good attorney? Because I need da-da-da-da-da. And they will they will say to me, Don't give me three names. I don't want to spend all this time vetting people out. I trust you. And, you know. I trust that you will send me the right person. And the other one is, I've had this too. And this one actually rocked me pretty good. And this was probably a decade ago. Is I I sent out three. And one of the individuals said, Hey, why the hell did you send me and so and so, which is his biggest competitor? They were collect they were collection attorneys. What the fuck? Like now I'm battling against him. Now it's just a a who's cheaper than the other because we're both great collection attorneys. And I was like, Yeah, you don't even know. I actually sent another one too. You know, I didn't say that. But but he had a good point, is like I'm p pushing people against each other. So but this is my own personal view and everybody but the way that you said it though. Like I'm like, fuck, that's a really good thing. Like, you know, you know, in regards to this is why this person's good, this is why this person's good, and this is why. So then they can gonna go, I'm gonna pick contestant number three to have my first call. I connect. This is great. So I actually like that answer, you know. I think that's a good one. Well, thank you. I'm I'm also I'm also gonna challenge the like mindset problem you just obviously shared because Whether you refer that person to three people, two people, or one, that person is going to do their homework anyway. Cause here's the other part of referrals. Referrals happen and it's up to that person to decide are they going to call the person they were referred to and hire them? They also free will. They can compare that person to somebody else as well, just to make sure they feel confident about it. I was at a ⁓ A legal marketing summit last month. And one of the things they mentioned there was the most common client journey is a referral that leads to a Google business profile page. And it's because when you make the referral, the very natural thing for that person to do is go search their name. Right. I want to see who is this to Lee C Friday before I call her. That is a natural thing to do. You want to see what is her website look like? What is her Google Business Profile look like? Do I think I'm I feel uncomfortable? Do I think I'm like totally sold? This is the person. That's natural to do. And so whether you refer that person to one or three people, that referral still has free will to go online and do the research anyway. And when it matters most is when referrals happen. The stakes are high, something is going on, it's a big decision, which is where the referral came in. They should do their homework. They absolutely should. ⁓ I agree. I agree. This is the reason why I ha love having guests like you on, because there's the challenge aspect, and I'm like, yeah, that's a fucking good point. Yeah, okay. And I said it wasn't. Yeah, yeah. You're like, hey, asshole, you're fucking wrong. Just gonna politely challenge you here. Yeah. Like, and I love how you actually do this is truly a coaching aspect. If you've ever worked with a coach, they'll say this. So I would suggest a different sort of reframing of that and looking at it a little bit differently. I.e., see, I don't do that with my clients. I'm like, you're fucking wrong. Do it. This I'm kidding, I don't do that. So one of the things that we had talked about before was a mistake that people that that attorneys make in referrals is it's not being clear, right? Are there any other mistakes that you see attorneys doing within regards to referrals? Yes. And I'm actually gonna give you a great example to help put this into context. Two of them. I'm gonna give you two examples. I had a personal injury lawyer I was consulting with, and he was growing his referral partner list. We were aiming for attorney referrals. He had a family law attorney who was referring him business. And she sent him a text message in the morning and she was like, Hey, I have this former client of mine. They were in a car wreck. This is their name. Can I refer them to you? What do you want me to do? And they're like, here's my information. My team is ready. Send them my way. We'll take care of them. That happened in the beginning of the day, in the very early morning. At the end of the day is when the family law attorney made that introduction. And that referral didn't convert. Because all day long there was time that passed. And what the family law lawyer doesn't understand because they do family law is in personal injury every single minute matters. They gotta sign up with a client right away. Insurance is calling them asking for a recorded statement. They just had to call their boss and say my car is told. I gotta figure out, do I have rental in my policy? Do I not? Their mind is going a million miles a minute of all the shit that they gotta do. The family law attorney doesn't experience that because she's in a different practice area. So my PI lawyer client lost the referral and he was frustrated and we talked about it. But I also told him the family law lawyer doesn't understand why that's important. So what I told him to do is I said, You gotta call the family law attorney back, but please do it after you get over being upset because he was upset. Yeah. And then I said, call her and explain it to her. And so he did. He talked to her and he said, Look, I appreciate you making the referral. We called them minutes after it came in. They had already hired someone else. They needed help right away. I really value your referrals and I want to be able to help your former clients. Please understand when that happens, these people want help right away. My team will jump on it. You can make the introduction this way or that way, and we'll get on it as soon as possible. But in personal injury, those minutes matter. And now she understood. But the personal injury attorney had to teach her that was a part of making a good referral. She did not know you do have to teach some of your referral partners how to refer to you in a way that's going to convert. Here's the second example. I had an estate planning attorney who's in my online community group. And one of the things she was telling me was a challenge she had because she gets a lot of personal injury lawyers who refer people to her. Okay. The challenge was in personal injury, they work off contingency fee. They don't get paid till the case closes at the very end. The way their law firm is run is very different than the estate planning lawyer who gets paid a retainer or upfront or hourly. So when the personal injury lawyer makes referrals to the estate planning lawyer, they are not setting up that referral to understand in estate planning, those consultations, you pay for them. In personal injury, we'll do free consultations all day, every day. That's what we do every hour. Yeah. But the personal injury lawyer isn't thinking like that because not that's not their practice area. So the estate planning lawyer had to train the personal injury lawyer and say, Look, I really value your referrals. It goes back to what I just said. You have to train them. When you refer someone my way, please let them know there is a consultation fee for my time. I'm happy to talk it through with them. And then what we identified is if someone can't pay that fee, well, they're not gonna be able to pay the fee for the services. Right. And she can then educate them on other services available that might be able to help them if money is a true constraint for them. And so those are the common mistakes that I see because my love is attorney to attorney referrals because I like to be that natural connector. But the common mistake is there truly is an aspect of this where you have to train your referral partners. How to give you a good referral and why that's a little bit different if they come from different practice areas. Criminal defense attorneys are probably listening saying, heck yeah, in criminal defense, they're in jail. They need help right now. Their hearing is in three days. ⁓ It's very different. It's true. And you know, for any of the attorneys who are listening that are like, but I don't want to be confrontational, you know, and you don't need to because think of it this way. This person thought of you, cares about you, they want to make sure that they're giving you the right referral, the right people. So if it's like, yeah, I don't handle those types of matters, those types of cases, but I handle these. Let them know because they don't want to waste your time. You don't want to waste their time. And so the education, you do it in a loving way. You first thank them first and foremost. Don't come at them accountable like, Delisi, why the hell did you send that over to me? Don't you know I don't work with those types of and you're like, well then go yourself. Like, I ain't gonna send you anything. But if you're like, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it, you know. I really love that you thought of me. And, you know, unfortunately, we weren't able to work with them because of X, Y, and Z. And the ones that we really love, that we are really good at is this. You know, so And and if you can do it in a very quick manner because we want to help them, they're probably in pain, they're probably confused, they're stressed out. We want to help them immediately. Or the opposite. You can just send it whenever because it's an MA thing. It's not going to be like right now. Obviously, urgency should always be there, but it doesn't need to be in 30 seconds, right? And so that education, I find no Everybody is doing it. And I and I think for my clients, they're like, but we're afraid to do that. And I'm like, why are you afraid to do it? Because they're afraid that you made a mistake. Stop making this mistake. Give me the right stuff. And I'm like, okay, if you said it that way, then yeah. And could it be, could there be a connotation to it? Absolutely. Watch your tone and your pitch and the words that you are using. And first and foremost, gratitude to begin the conversation. And then helping them move it along, but then also saying, and this these kind of clients, we love working because we can help them with this problem, this problem, this problem. Like, and then you're all good. And then it's like everybody is happy, you know, kind of thing. So yeah. I agree. Cause you don't want that person to make the referral and then you can't help, and then they're like, Yeah, but Gary said you're gonna be able to help me. And now you look back as you're like, I did say you were gonna help, and now you can't. And that's not the experience that you want. What do you recommend then? If okay, Gary, but if I can't refer this to you, then who do I refer it to? Yeah. Well then you go to your list. Yeah. Just like what you had said before. You got a list of people, you know. Absolutely. That's your network, you know. And that's another reason why I think that you should always network with your quote unquote competitors. Because they're the greatest. Like in my provisor group, we have seven corporate transactional attorneys. And people go, Wait, what? And they do more business with each other than any other occupation that's in my group. And I love it. I mean, we have three estate planning attorneys, we have two employment attorneys, and it's like, and they quote unquote do the exact same things as each other, but they don't or they're conflicted out or they're too busy or it's not something that they really like to work on but they know the other one does and could crush it, you know, and then they start referring each other and they go, ⁓ my God, I built trust. Like, okay. That's where the magic happens. Yeah. And I'm sure when you see that all the time. I I see it all the time. I also think part of that is like a mindset thing. You have to have an abundance mindset to think like that. Because the people who have a very closed off mindset are gonna say, that's my competitor, that'll always be my competitor. But you are gonna lead a very lonely life if that's how you see the world. I would much rather make friends than have a whole bunch of enemies. And to your point, all of those people have conflicts. All of those people get busy. Not not every case is gonna be a case that they accept for one reason or another. You may as well make friends and see how you guys can support each other through referrals. So I 100% agree with that. Yeah. ⁓ my God. Delicy, thank you. I want to do a big ass for you. Okay. Can we do this again? Because I got so many freaking things that I might Yes. We could do like a whole series. I mean, a hundred percent. Everything you said, I'm like, ⁓ he gets it. He totally gets it. Well, other than the three ⁓ refer No my God, this has been a treasure trove of gold. Thank you. Thank you for your wisdom and thank you for your generosity to share this with the attorneys out there. I mean, what you do is amazing. And I I am so grateful for David Soldano, another plug for him for introducing us, you know, because we need more Deleases in the world. We really do. And and I so appreciate how you come at business and how you teach and and coach and consult attorneys on how to really grow their their business. And I can't wait for our next one too. And if anybody wants to get a hold of Delecy, we're gonna put all of her contact information in there. And by the way, she also has a podcast too, which she hasn't invited me on, but that's okay. Like I my feelings aren't hurt because I don't have feelings. ⁓ it's okay because I don't have guests on the show. I'm thinking about changing that next year and having guests on the show because I've had people who requested it. They're like, Deleasey, have you thought about doing it with guests? So season two actually starts this month. I'm gonna start doing two episodes a month instead of one. And my goal is to work my way up to start having guests. And yes, you will absolutely have to come on, Gary. You'll have to do a show together. I'd be delighted. And I would love to do that. Yeah. So Reach out to her. You know what you're gonna experience from this podcast. You know her personality. It's amazing. But if you need help with referrals, if you need help just with marketing and business development and you're an attorney, reach out to Talisi. She is absolutely amazing, has a great track record and a great reputation. And I am so grateful that you are on this podcast. I really appreciate you very much. Thank you for having me, Gary. Let's do it again. We will do it again. Coming soon. Yes, part two. Yeah, part two. That's it for today's episode of Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me. And remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.