Latest / UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps / The Personality Test That Built a Business | Mike Moreau

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The Personality Test That Built a Business | Mike Moreau · UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps

• Mike Moreau: at the end of the day the most important thing is to be able to execute and get something done. And if we're not if we're not actually executing on things and we're just you know, circling the drain and figuring out ways to to not go and do things and so there is the potential of lots of different technologies and distractions and self help books and all sorts of things that we can get into but at the end of the day human nature still needs to to get off the couch and go and put in the first mile and go and put in the the you know, the fifth one thousandth mile. Mickey Anderson: Welcome back to another episode of Unleashed. today. We are gonna chat all things consulting, talent acquisition, HR, the future, and AI and how it all plays together today. I have Mike Moreau here with me from Concord Consulting and Traits. Mike, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for joining me. Mike Moreau: Yeah, a pleasure to be on Mickey. Looking forward to to the conversation today. Mickey Anderson: So for the listeners benefit, I'd love to hear what you're building now. Tell me about Concord, tell me about traits and kind of the the organization that you're you're working on now. Mike Moreau: Yeah, well we've got an organization that really is two pieces, two parts to it. one is a technology piece that we have inside of our business, and the other side is the consulting side of our business. And so consulting is all things strategic planning, org design, coaching, leadership development would sort of fall under that bracket and and then on the technology side is is a recruitment and talent development technology that that we have that we put lots of time and attention towards as well called traits and we're we're actively building on both of those areas. Mickey Anderson: That's a really interesting mix. So in today, today's day and age, we see a lot of really fast growth tech tech SaaS companies coming up. And a lot of people are I want to say concerned about consulting with AI. Everyone's got a business coach and consultant in their pocket nowadays, right? With Claude and ChatGPT. And it's not often you get that balance of both in one organization. So do you mind sharing with the listeners a little bit about how they work together and maybe how you see the benefits and maybe the challenges that you're facing in, you know, having a technology product that you're selling to market, but also the consulting side. Mike Moreau: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's sort of like our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. having both of those two pieces come together the way that they do. The technology side that I think is you talk about sort of this whole SaaS angle and using technology to be able to to to build something bigger and and faster and scaling and all of those types of things. but what we found is there's this body of knowledge that needs to exist out there that is so critical. And so it's, you know, why can't you just automate the technology side? Well, you know, it is automated, but but if you don't have the consulting arm that comes in and And and is able to provide more insight and more of our learnings into into the tool itself and the results that are coming back, then you're really missing something there. And so so I get the question all the time: are you a consulting company or are you a software company? and it really is both. And as much as we want to try and separate it, it's it's almost like in our minds you lose too much by separating those two things. And and so probably that will inhibit our growth over the long term. We'll never be the billion-dollar software. that that exists from that standpoint, but there's a big strong belief in in in in our minds about helping clients out and helping them to learn how to you know this this interesting formula about people and what makes them tick and all of those types of things that we don't want to leave that to part to technology entirely. Mickey Anderson: And you know what? It brings up something. I mean, for myself, for example, one of our core values is legacy, right? We're building for sustainability for the long term. And a lot of people, and I'm sure the listeners as well can relate to that. You know, you you're building something that's beyond yourself, but it's not quite that unicorn that we see the one person billion dollar SaaS company that we're all shooting for. That's not necessarily our goals, a successful business looks different for everyone. So it sounds like for you. that sustainability kind of legacy piece is the most important component. Is that accurate? Mike Moreau: Yeah, the learning. I think so many so many things out there these days are just hit the easy button, hit the easy button and don't do the thinking that is required. I don't think we're any better off when we just hit the easy button. I think it's it's through experience, lived experiences that we that we gain some of that knowledge and then we're better off as an individual, as a team, as an organization because of some of those lived experiences. and so to just try and hit an easy button with this and just give me the easy solution on this, there's there's lots of products and there's lots of things where you can go and do that. But really when somebody gains the knowledge about something then then they're that much better off I think too many people hit the easy button and but it's it's the leaders, it's the managers, it's the the people out there in the world that build some knowledge that that just become more impactful at the end of the day. Mickey Anderson: Such a good point. there are so many people out there and so many CEOs out there where like, if there was a real effective easy button, boy, we'd be hitting it all day, right? a lot of people assume there's this magic pill or this magic wand that they can wave that's AI that's gonna transform everything. And easy and right aren't necessarily the same thing. it kind of brings me to my next point and question which is that discernment. That we gain the instead of outsourcing our thinking to a tool, it's like a tool is a tool. You leverage it, you get information and data from it, but what you do with it, how you execute on it, what you learn from it is based off of you and and the people that you're surrounded with. And I think that's a huge component. And so I love how the consulting really allows for that, right? You have the tool, you have this information. What do we do with it? How do we best leverage it? How do we make decisions that are right for our company. Is that how you're looking at that kind of discernment piece? Mike Moreau: Yeah. What what's popping into my head is is this this idea of marathon training. And and so if I if I go and leverage a tool, I could probably leverage that tool to be able to come up with all sorts of information for me that I am able to choose all sorts of different exercise programs that that I want to do in order to go and achieve my goal, which is to to run a marathon. but do I spend too much of my time know, putting information into into a system that or into a tool and having those conversations as opposed to just put your shoes on, get outside and go for a run. And and and and we really need to do that. Like you can't have one without the other. You need to be able to get out there and and put the training time in and not only do that for one marathon, but to be able to do that for three, four and five marathons. And there's the knowledge side that I think starts to come in. So we have to discern whether, you know, whether we're just sitting around and having a conversation with something that's giving us different options and and trying to maybe convince it to give us the easy button. Well what if what if I only ran twelve miles on Sundays, you know, or or w what if I only put in, you know, instead of a real long run of three hours, how about if I just put in two and a half? How would I have to change my my train no, just gotta get outside and you gotta run and you gotta you know, do that program, experience marathon number one, know what to do better for marathon two, you know, and and it's through that lived experience that that things really start to improve and and and and we get better at the end of the day. Mickey Anderson: I love that example. I was a a D one swimmer. So man, I would have if somebody could have swam my laps for me, let me tell you right. Mike Moreau: Mm-hmm. Mickey Anderson: But I I think of two kind of pieces there. Yeah, there's grunt work that I had to do. I had to get laps in. I had to, build the strength, build the time in the pool, do all those things. There's the competitive side of actually, you know, doing the race, competing and learning from that. And then there's the mental aspect as well, right? That sometimes we forget. that mental strength, that ability to perform under pressure, nobody, no program's gonna get you to do that, right? Like that's your own work. yeah, you can get support and tools and coaches and things like that, but it's it's you. You have to go through it and experience it. And I think there's this lack of humanness going around, if I s if I may say so. that we're almost disconnecting ourselves and our personal growth and the the gains and the education and the experience and the value of that in not just our day to day lives but in our professions as well. Would you agree? Mike Moreau: Yeah, yeah, I would agree. you know at the end of the day the most important thing is is to be able to execute and get something done. And if we're not if we're not actually executing on things and we're just you know, circling the drain and figuring out ways to to not go and do things and and so there there is the potential of lots of different technologies and distractions and self help books and all sorts of things that we can get into that that I mean there's entire industries that are built around this and Mickey Anderson: Billion dollar industries. Mike Moreau: Yeah, yeah. And so, but at the end of the day human nature still needs to to get off the couch and and and go and put in the first mile and and and go and put in the the you know, the fifth one thousandth mile. It's it's you need to you need to do that sort of thing to you know to to to go and accomplish other things and and not just sort of Find another distraction that that can be out there in the world that locks us into something that that is unproductive. Mickey Anderson: take a rewind here because you're not in a new company, right? And and so I want to hear a little bit more about the past, how you got to where you are, what you think it is that allowed you to sustain this business for so long and be so strong. And then kind of how you're thinking about maybe the next twenty years in the future. Mike Moreau: Yeah. Yeah, well I I came across this years ago. and I came across this business. I was introduced to somebody and and asked to go through a short little survey and and then sat down with with what became my partner in business and and he ended up telling me things that he should have never known about me, never having met me before. And it was such an eye opening experience that I remember going back in my memory banks to all sorts of things that had happened in my life and and just having totally different totally different viewpoint on on all of those things and and being blown away by that and thinking specifically I remember when he was going through that thinking to myself, why doesn't every single manager in the world know this about their people? And and so we we've been at that for a long, long time, just this whole idea of of educating managers on and leaders and and entrepreneurs. about how personality impacts performance in the workplace and that's such a a core piece and you know, if I if I look back to way back when and I and I look to where I am now and and look out into the future, you know, do I feel like I've scratched the surface? I'm not even sure if we've scratched the surface on that. I I still run into people every single day that still don't really understand this this core concept that exists out there in the world that know, if you if you could line up everybody in the world, most aggressive over on one side, least aggressive over on the other side, and put everybody in line on that, and then said which which of the this group would be most effective for doing this kind of work in the world, we'd probably start to figure out that, you know, when we when we grab core sections of those people and put them into this kind of a role and give them these kinds of assignments or put them in this place on the team, then we're we're we're at a there's probably a higher level of return and and and and more engagement and more excitement from those people as opposed to pulling somebody from the opposite side. So I still think that this you know you know th this knowledge is missing out there in the world. And so when I look forward into the future, I think I think AI is a is a very interesting piece for being able to allow people to have very different conversations. So there's maybe a little bit of an openness to that. But you still need, you still need a core measurement to to be able to figure out where people exist on this on this scale. And so I'm I'm excited as I look forward and and think about how this could actually get into more people's hands on a more continual basis and where there's maybe a little bit more understanding of the person that's sitting across the table from me. And and and therefore, you know, my ability to be able to align them in the right kinds of positions or the right places on teams becomes becomes that much better and and and the world starts to move forward in a much faster clip. Mickey Anderson: we see all these headlines these days of mass layoffs, And the the challenging job market and how hard it is to find good people and keep good people and there's so many different narratives going around. And I think a lot of organizations are like, How can I do this with less people? How can I make this easier? Because people are hard, but I I'm Of the belief that like people are the thing that make the business, if we're we're humans selling to humans, human solutions to human problems. And so I think there's always going to be a human component. And to your point, the better you can leverage your people, the the more success you're gonna have. Now, looking back over the past, I think it's eighteen years you've been with the company. Mike Moreau: Yeah, about that, yeah. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. are there key things that you think have been either an attributor to your success and your sustainability as a company or things, maybe lessons or experiences that have helped you continue to grow and and keep this company moving forward? Mike Moreau: I think there's always lessons and experiences that that come along the way. I think Back to that idea, not that I'm trying to go back to a point, but the whole idea of experience is such a critical, critical piece. But then also what you do with that experience. And so experience in itself is not a not a predictor of of of performance or what's going to happen into the future, but it does give us a bit of an understanding that of what somebody's been through. So you know, building that as as we've worked with all sorts of different organizations through the years in all sorts of different industries that we've come across that experience is just been really critical in in in learning the patterns that exist w you know despite very different businesses and in being able to understand different bits of information around leaders and what makes a strong one and and maybe what makes a little bit more of a challenged leader in different situations, all of those types of things. So it's yeah there's you know certainly from an experience standpoint lots that that comes along. And then lots of lessons along the way, lots of mistakes and and and mess ups and all of those types of things that again sort of add the battle wounds along the way and and scars along the way that hopefully make us smarter for the long term. So you know whether that be different marketing initiatives, whether that be different people that that you bring into the business, customers that you work with along the way. all of those types of things, teach teach the lessons as as we as we move along. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, yeah, it's a process, isn't it? As you think back, are there things or is there one thing that you were focused on in Concord and Traits, whether it was for growth or for the organization, that you're no longer focusing on now, because times have changed or things for the business have changed. Mike Moreau: Yeah, certainly there's been evolutions, especially as there are different people that that are coming in and out of the business, so services that we're offering that that that we've shut down or or discontinued in terms of of work that we're doing, that that start to start to go away. But they're and you know, different marketing initiatives. It's probably Mickey, the biggest thing has been get smarter. that that's been the big thing. And so, you know, marketing. a number of years ago I remember you know, spending a hundred thousand dollars on marketing and and in in this sort of project that that that we ended up investing in and and putting a whole bunch of time and effort and dollars towards and what was the outcome on the end of that not what we wanted and so you know the the tack that we took with that the approach that we took with that Mike had to get his education and and Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Mike Moreau: so got my education and and now it's okay good we we build on that and so we're gonna scrap what we were doing over there and we're gonna take a different approach and and then and then sort of the continual improvement side of things, which is okay, you know, this this approach is not working. What are we going do to to bring some other things? What can we tweak or adjust along the way? so probably fewer, you know, big you know big you know big troubles or big big mistakes along the way and those are certainly some from from a few years ago and now more of of okay, we've got we're getting this refined now and we're starting to become a little bit more well oiled as we're moving forward and so we don't have to do complete rehauls on on on our business and what we're what we're doing now. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. I find the longer a business is around, obviously you learn a ton over time and you gain information, experience, insights, those sorts of things. But I find it becomes less of a reinvention and more of a how can we identify the things that we know work and do those incredibly well and almost like a tightening, an optimization as opposed to okay, we're gonna did AI came, gosh, we're gonna completely shift our entire business. It's like, no, no. We know what we do well, we have this additional tool, we can leverage it now. To continue to move forward on what we know works. Is is that kind of where you're at now? Mike Moreau: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's that that's that's so key, so important that it's to a certain degree there are big strides, big swings that we want to take with things. And even as entrepreneurs, I think that there are there's a there's an entrepreneurial mindset of how do we take the big swing? What's the next big swing that is going to help us solve things? And I've certainly tried to do that in my life. What's the next big s swing that's that's gonna solve everything? But at the end of the day, it's not necessarily the big swing. It's the it's it's the it's the iterative process that that comes along. It's like I I can't decide tomorrow that I'm gonna be a a D one swimmer. like I can decide that and I can jump in the pool and I can I can flail around a whole bunch in in whatever way that I want, but but you don't become a D one swimmer without putting in all of those times and and b and those building blocks that sort of build upon each other that then allow you to be the the athlete that you are. I think Too many times in my life, too many p times in other people's lives, we have the big dream, the big thing, but again, we're not willing to put the effort in to to to be able to march those things along. And so in our business, we've taken big swings, but but now we're trying to just put step by step, build the build the foundations, build the processes and and and get those in place and and we'll be in a much better place five years from now if we've gone and executed on all of those things, we're gonna have much more in place. Mickey Anderson: I come back to this baseball analogy of like what wins a game, what wins a season, what wins the championship. And it's not the home runs, it's the base hits, Consistently getting on base base hits all day long. Home runs are great. Those are wonderful. But we gotta be getting base Mike Moreau: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mickey Anderson: hits. Like it's the fundamentals. Yeah. so for now in your businesses, you're looking forward to what are the things you're really focused on? help grow and sustain this business for yourself? Are there specific service lines? I know you're bringing in some new people and new roles. what is what is your primary focus right now? Mike Moreau: Yeah, there's a few different things that we're doing. We've we're putting a focus on on planning and execution specifically. So that's a that's a new muscle that or that's a more disciplined muscle that we're trying to put in place now. And so there's focus around that and an outside facilitator that that we have to help keep us online with that. I'm a big believer in outside facilitators and and so we've got a different set of eyes in the room to be able to help us with that and keep us disciplined around the execution that we have along the way. we have we've created a new way to be able to get our content out there and so we've we've developed a program within traits. We have a a a communication styles tool that that we have and and so it has been to a certain degree sort of on the shelf, available for people, but but we haven't been haven't we haven't sort of put it towards a more commercially viable product and so we've just recently launched a a new program for that where we've got all of our content that we've done along the way, but we've created a two half day session to be able to go and have people you know access it online, go through the training, get a whole bunch of resources and workbooks and slides and facilitators, all that sort of good stuff. And and so we want to get our content out there again. My my my thought of you know, why doesn't every single manager in the world know this about their people? you know, something as basic as communication styles, one part of our tool. It's amazing to me when I sit down and start having a conversation with people how they they just don't recognize that that yeah, there actually are patterns to the way that we behave, the way that we talk, the way that we communicate. And the more effectively I can sort of understand that, the the better off I am. So we've created something for that to to move forward with again a whole new marketing approach that we've taken on things. So there's a few things that we're we're trying to progress forward on and and and keep moving and again r rather than geez I sure hope we can we can get more consultants and HR people using our our technology and trying to have a big marketing play on that. Why don't we actually build some resources that we can both use internally but that that they could leverage along the way so that we create a better end product at the end of the day. So yeah get a little bit more granular in what we're doing and and build some really great products and And and then get those out there to the world. Mickey Anderson: I I love hearing businesses who build a tool internally to solve problems for themselves that has viability to solve other purpose problems. You start with internally, you know, hash through it, have the learnings, the hiccups, those sorts of things. And then once you've got it finished, it's like, gosh, this is awesome, right? I have potentially another product line or something I could I could bring forward, whether it's a free resource or a paid resource, whatever it is. but I love hearing those examples because I think a lot of us focus on go to market, go to market, right? Like get that MVP out there. But we we're often not thinking about how we can leverage what we're building inside to support our clients and our market as well. That's an really interesting take for sure. Mike Moreau: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's been a it's been a combination of things through the years, but and more rapidly here in the last few months to get this this up and going. But it's Candace on our team went and built a a beautiful product to be able to serve her clients and then and then sort of sat back and took a look at that one day and went, Holy cow, this is actually a beautiful product and and and and there's probably other people out there in the world that can can leverage this. So yeah, so off we go in that direction. Mickey Anderson: Well, it sounds like you you give your team members some autonomy to build what's needed to make decisions and to kind of move forward with projects and and bring those ideas forward. Where a lot of in a lot of organizations that not that's not necessarily the culture. It's like do your job, follow your SOP, right? Like hit your mark and stay in your lane. but I love hearing examples of people who are able to create things and have that time to really solve problems that maybe wouldn't necessarily be their full time job, but they can get passionate about and creative about and add value to the organization as well. Mike Moreau: Yeah. Yeah, well I I I I love talking with people and talking about the obstacles that they have to trying to accomplish something in their business. Well, we can't do that because of this, and this is going on and that is going on. But the reality is, is with some of our clients I've been around long enough to to see that that person then leaves and another person comes in. And now all of those things are now possible. So they were impossible yesterday. Now they're possible as soon as that person leaves the room. And really it's w it we're just it's it's ourselves getting in our own way of looking at something, thinking something can't happen. But if I actually put somebody else inside of that job, what do they think? And and would that actually be the reality, or is that just my reality? So I think from a leadership standpoint, I think that's so critical to be able to understand about ourselves is that. I don't have all of the right ideas. I could be staring straight into a wall that I believe is a clear wall that there's nothing can be that can be done with this and and and yet I you know put somebody else in place and now all of a sudden that wall becomes clear. And so for us it's our clients, it's our staff, it's the the the team that we have around us in all sorts of different ways that you have to bring those perspectives in to be able to take a look at a problem and and I have to suspend my disbelief. in that situation to say, No, I think I'm right on this. No, no, no, no. I I actually have to go and explore this other option because maybe somebody else doesn't see a wall. I I think that's so critical. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, I talk a lot about the power of bringing people in and collaborating, getting other people's eyes on things. Cause often we're in silos and you don't even realize it. And I love that kind of reflective question. It's like, is this really a wall or is it just the wall that I see? Right. I think we can all probably ask ourselves that in a couple areas of our business or with our team and recognize that maybe we're creating more of a problem or we're just not looking at it through the right perspective, or we don't have the right person there to help us solve it. Mike Moreau: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. So when we're thinking about maybe the future, there's a lot of shiny objects out there. There's a lot of things that are coming at us quickly, and we're seeing a lot of different change as well in the world. And so I'm wondering for you what maybe you're actively avoiding or you see as a shiny object that you think other business owners might be drawn into or it looks, you know, very enticive that actually is just a distraction. for the consulting industry and for your business in particular. Mike Moreau: Yeah, well, you know, the probably the distraction that is above all other distractions right now is is AI and and what to do with AI and and what are you doing with AI and and and and really trying to get a a clear view on that. I think that there are a lot of things that are being created right now as software solutions that may be completely irrelevant six months from now. And so that's where I'm sort of thinking about things that this whole idea of AI, it's brand new, we're we're trying to figure our way around it and people are trying to come up with solutions, but maybe the solutions that we're coming up with are maybe going to actually be irrelevant in the future. So put a different way, you know, QuickBooks is doing all they can to invest in how AI works inside of their inside of their tool. And I am not a tool user in an extensive way, so so I'll be cautious in saying this, but it's sort of like I I see the icon that says use AI in this situation and I can click on that and get a little bit of information, but is that is that really relevant? And so, you know, adding AI to my software, is that really gonna help at the end of the day? Is that gonna allow me to build a different kind of knowledge? Maybe a little bit, maybe it'll teach me some lessons along the way. But I I sort of go back to I think I think the big AI agents will be the or the big AI models. will be the thing that we interact with down the road and and that ultimately everything's got to plug into that model. And so I guess we sort of think about things in a little bit of a different way. How do we how do we train that model to be able to do the things that you know so that you can almost put between our software and Mike, how how do you do that? you know and and and AI. How do you how do you put some information inside of there so that the model talks about the way that we would talk about our business and and our results and those types of things in a different way. So it's a long answer to your shiny object syndrome and and chasing things down but but I'm I'm I'm not sure we've we've tried a couple of software approaches and and I just sort of think I I I don't think people will use this. I I don't think people will go to another software or pay me another thirty dollars a month to access our software. just so that they can interact with AI. I think they already have a model, they're already paying for something over here, and I think that's where they want to go and spend their time. so anyways, long long shiny object thing. Mickey Anderson: No, it's super interesting because I do see I see so many many software and technology companies layering in AI to everything, right? I we use Go High Level as our CRM as an example. And they had this AI summer thing that went on. And so now they have AI integrated chat where you can ask it anything about your software. They have all these different components. And I can't say that I've touched any of it, nor has anyone on our team, right? so does is does it look cool? Sure. Do I use it? No. So did it really add value or make me I don't you know what I mean? Like I think I think of it more as a distraction within the software. It's like I don't I just need to find the thing and like that's it. So I think you're right on it's really worth considering is this actually adding value, improving customer experience, providing additional value, doing the things that we need it to do, or am I just tacking it on because it looks cool? Mike Moreau: Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like should should AI exist inside of the software? or should software exist inside of the AI? And and it ca again it can be separate, but through an API could could you connect through because because Claude becomes my becomes my chat bot where I can access everything that goes on in my in my life. I can access my calendars, I can access my my my my traits results, I can access my CRM, I can access my my accounting, and and I can ask this one hub to be able to ask a whole bunch of really interesting questions. So is it about building another software and and and integrating AI or or does that actually become become the new thing? So anyways it's it's the question I'm asking myself these days. Mickey Anderson: it's super interesting. I I'm sure you're not the only one asking that question. I know we're constantly considering how does AI play in our world? What what does it look like? How are people using it now? How will they use it in the future? What makes the most sense? And it's it the it's changing day to day as well as the AI models improve, as there's more integrations, as there's different patterns. It's it's a and I think you just have to constantly be asking that question over and over because once you become complacent and think I've nailed it, it's gonna change. Mike Moreau: And and and back to earlier in our conversation, it changed, so maybe I should go back and reassess and run all of my things through it again and and still somebody stands back and says, So how much progress have you made on that mic? geez, you know, I yeah, you're right. I haven't taken that to the street and actually tried anything. I haven't gone and had the conversation with the customer to see if, you know, whatever whatever that might be, I I haven't jumped in the pool to to start doing my laps yet. Mickey Anderson: You know, on that mark too, I think this is just my hot take on this, but I don't think enough people are having actual conversations with their customers enough. you know, like we put an AI there and think it's taken care of. And but where is that data? Where how what have I learned from it? one of the things that I think is is really gonna be a big differentiator is over the next, you know, twelve to twenty-four months, it's it's how many real life touch points can you have the customer? How much information can you gather? How many questions can you get answered? And then how can you leverage that data? Because it's gonna be different than probably what you expect and probably how they interact with your AI as well. So that's just my my hot take on that point as well. now as we look into the future, kind of zooming out again, you you straddle two spaces, right? You straddle the technology side, but you also straddle the consulting side. And both of which touch leaders, organizations, HR, talent management, talent acquisition. And so for the business owner listening today, you know, what are you seeing down the pipeline? Maybe for other consulting businesses or tech businesses, what are you seeing coming down the pipeline in the future that you're preparing for outside of just AI, but the the kind of this this business building? what are your I would say predictions almost for the next five to ten years in in our space. Mike Moreau: Yeah, well, I I think Trust is something that that's coming up in my mind. So again, if we take a half step back and and go to what we were just talking about and and you know talking to the customers and and and those pieces, I think this whole idea of how much do we do we trust AI and do we trust is such an important thing between people to to to go and build. And and so I think trust sort of underlies a lot of this. Who are the organizations, the companies that that people are going to trust? People trust the people on the other side of that. And so that's one piece that's coming in and then and then tools is another piece that's coming in that I think I think you know, you we're still gonna need tools at the end of the day. We've always needed tools throughout human history. We've needed tools to be able to to help us to be able to do things more quickly and efficiently and all of those types of things to be able to build more and so so I think that there will always be this building the tool. and being trustworthy that that are just really critical. And I think for the organizations that actually go out there and can do those things, create something that's really valuable that helps somebody to do something that they couldn't do themselves or helps somebody to do something faster than they could do themselves. And to be able to build the trust, which I think has always been, you know, always underlies everything that we do and and will continue to do so and maybe actually gets amplified because of because of an AI agent doing something for me and and what do I trust around that or not, that the organizations that can really provide that that level of trust to to their clientele, to their people out there to the marketplace, and the tools that will actually help people succeed more effectively, that's that's maybe a conceptual sort of idea, but I think it's it's a good belief approach to be able to kind of move towards in in doing whatever it is that we do and and so what is what does that mean specifically for us, Mickey, y y you know, or others might ask. Not sure yet, but but again, I think I think again it's it's not necessarily the inventive process. It's it's the what how do we how do we actually build towards that, that we build a a great tool that that that is trustworthy out there in the marketplace. And if we do those things and do it really well and pay lots of good attention to that, then we'll be in a good place twenty years down the road. Mickey Anderson: I've been having so many conversations around trust lately. not everyone trusts where their data is. I was talking about how we have a tool that helps me organize my inbox. And I had friends going, Wait, what? You let AI in your inbox. Like, I don't trust AI for that. And I was like, Well, I don't have social media, so we trust different things, right? Like we all Mike Moreau: Yeah, yeah. Mickey Anderson: have our our different concepts of what trust is, but I think it's something that every business owner today really needs to hone in on. How am I building trust? How am I losing trust, both with your clients and your market, but also internally with your people? Because I think that becomes a very skimmed over, kind of forgotten topic that I think is is more important today. And on that, I know one of the things you you really focus on is right people, right seats. And I think I personally think that that's gonna be even more important in this age of AI. and and so for you, when you're thinking about trust. tools and getting the right people in the right seats. How do you see this all playing out with AI recruitment tools and AI and onboard and all these components when it comes to building good trust and keeping and finding good people? Mike Moreau: Yeah. Well I think I think it's I believe AI has got a very strong place in in filling in the gaps along the way to get to to maybe expediate some of the things that need to happen within a process. But at the end of the day we need to we still need to have that conversation. We still need to to to do that one on one. There's there's certainly an automated side to some of the things that we do in terms of get a survey out to somebody, get that get those results back. and and our results tell us some really in depth insights about people, but they don't tell us everything. And I still need to sit down and I still need to sit across the table from you and talk about, you know, the the the the internal pieces and and all of the experience and how you built all of those and get a sense of your maturity and get a sense of your intelligence and get a sense of fit and values and all of those types of things and you can't eliminate that with with technology. So I don't believe you can. I think I think you still need we still need the human touch at the end of the day. That's what helps us to be able to create that trust along the way. And then I need to call some references and and and I need to talk to managers that you worked with years ago that you mentioned when we were when we were having that conversation and now I say I actually want to go and talk to that manager and I want to see if their view of that situation matches up to the to the way that that that you view that situation. And so I'm getting some really good in-depth honest information from how two people saw that story and that again helps to build my trust or or break the trust with that person. But at the end of the day we can we'll have lots of tools that will make things a lot faster from a recruitment standpoint, but but again we still need to sit down in front of somebody and and spend the time with them. And the more important ro the role, the more the more time we need to spend with that individual. Mickey Anderson: I think there's there's a place for AI and technology to support us and amplify and speed up. Absolutely. But I think when it comes to bringing into people people into a team, right, this is it like as much as we say don't say your business is your family, it it's a it's a unit, it's a culture, it's a it's it's a thing that you're bringing, it's a living organism, I like to say. And when you're bringing different people in, that shifts, the organism shifts. And you want to make sure it's shifting in the right direction. And so taking that time, having that due diligence, I don't, I don't think, at least not at this point, AI and technology can do that for us. and the other thing I want to chat about as well is the personality component of this, because you know, obviously you have a tool that can deliver results and give us some insights and things like that, but there's also the personal component. So, how give me a little bit on on how managers or leaders are leveraging both that. existence of the tool and what it provides you, but also their own experience or maybe the coaching consulting side to it. Mike Moreau: Yeah. well you know, again, if we if we sort of have this idea of we can line everybody up on a scale and and understand their characteristics, that's a really important part. But then if we could use the same thing and we would have this phrase that we always use in our business, which is jobs have a personality. And so there are lots of tools that exist out there that identify the personality characteristics in different ways of the person. And then oftentimes there's sort of this, okay, you're this way, but we need you to be this way. So let's get let's change you to fit the job and do things the way that we need to inside of the job, or let's make accommodations. So that you can do this job. You're a talkative person, but we need you in accounts payable and you can't talk to anybody. So we're gonna make concessions and we're gonna do some different things to be able to do that. And I just have a much firmer belief that there's you know, people have got strengths that that we need to be able to identify out there, and we shouldn't be turning them off, demotivating them by trying to get them to stop doing those things. And and so if we say, okay, well we're not gonna do that, then I'd Yeah, but then you're also not getting the productivity because that person's always going away and trying to talk with other people and and and leave and go and do other things. So I think there's a there's a real connection here that really being able to understand that and understand what is the personality of the job, what is the personality of the person, and the closer those two actually line up, the more motivated that person is going to be intrinsically to do that job every single day. and and sort of hardwired to see the things that they need to do. A detail oriented person sees details. We don't have to train that into them. We don't have to we don't have to reinforce that a whole bunch. They they see all the ripples when we're trying to make a decision about something and they can't help themselves. So if I need an accounts payable person, I want to put them inside of that position and and leverage the live and daylights out of that if I can and and and allow them to be their best self every single day inside of that position. so Mickey Anderson: And then what so one of the things I'm curious about too, because we'll have some business owners who are sort of building the org chart as they go, right? As one does, as you grow, new roles are created and sometimes there's gaps and and you know, we're not really sure how to best leverage somebody and maybe there's not a defined role for that person. What's your take? Cause I know you do org chart work and and leadership development and support companies in that way. So as somebody say they they understand this person's personality, they're outgoing, extroverted, talkative, you know, great with customers, great with people. And there's no real role specific for that, but they wanna leverage this person. Where do you find that balance in creating the job for the person versus the person for the job? Mike Moreau: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think I think you need to build the job for the person. And so so if we need somebody that's vibrant and excitable and and and engaged and salesy and but we don't wanna actually make any more sales in our business, then you know, I I'm also a believer that not everybody is a perfect fit for the organization forever. And so maybe that's the case and and and it's certainly an experience in in my life that you know the the the the organization that I wanted to work with or that I was working with at at one point in my life, I wanted to grow, I wanted to do more, I wanted to have more things, but you know, and and they said no, we we're not interested in doing that. And so, okay, well then I'm I'm gonna go somewhere else. I think to a degree you can you can build responsibilities around people. But I think as organizations continue to grow and continue to move along, we we need to take the people out of the boxes and we need to decide what are the boxes that we actually need, and then we need to reinsert those people inside of those boxes. And for some it's gonna be a strain and and and things will change enough that they will leave, and and that's part of the sacrifice of growth. Good people will leave, but but at the end of the day. if we stay the same and and expect different results from it, that's that's unlikely to happen and and so we we an organization an organizational chart needs to change and adjust and and different responsibilities are required y tomorrow as compared to today because because we've inserted another layer we've done something different and and therefore we need different kinds of people to be able to do that. And not one person can can exist up and down and cross every single position in an organization. From a behavioral standpoint, I think never mind their experience and everything. It's not everybody can exist in every single role to a high performing level for a long period of time. I'm not I'm not a believer in that. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. And I think there's this part of like honoring the person that a lot of times we forget where you know it's a very difficult decision. If you have a good person but you don't have a place for them and they're no longer really a fit. Like that that happens frequently. And I think a lot of leaders are torn in that, okay, well, I I love this person. I wanna be loyal to them. They've been great for me and I'm gonna try and squeeze them into a different box. But there's so much friction and challenge that can come from that. Sometimes it can work. But not always. And I think there's also a value of recognizing, okay, if we don't have a box for this person, they're a great person. Wouldn't it be best to just honor that we're no longer really a fit and give them the opportunity to find something that is a fit and just, you know, have that conversation? And I think that that's a really challenging position, but I also think it's an important one that sometimes we forget that it's okay to let good people go if they're no longer a fit. Mike Moreau: Yeah, it's there's maybe a couple of analogies and I'm thinking to the military side because of because of loyalty ops Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Mike Moreau: and I'm also thinking to to a a hockey analogy and and maybe we can kind of combine the the the two of them just for for this sort of idea. But you know, it I heard this from somebody a little while ago, but it it's sort of like when we start a business, it's like everybody showing up at the Canadian hockey rank. We all throw our sticks in the middle and we all get playing and we're all having a bunch of fun. And there are some people that you know are there from the NHL just hanging out over Christmas time and are unbelievable on the ice and there are some people that don't even have skates on and have a broom as a as a goalie stick. And and that's fine and that works really well and and everything's gonna be okay there. But if we say now we actually wanna go into the men's league or now we wanna go into a little bit more competitive sort of environments and work our way up to a pro level, which is what happens with organizations. We have this group of people that come together, but eventually we have to say to poor Bob who showed up with his running shoes and a and a broom to play goalie, it's like we we can't keep you around. We need skaters. We we we need people that can skate. And and too many organizations exist with, well, you know, we'd we'd be better at this. We'd be able to be more competitive in the league that we're in, except we do have Bob And and Bob's the three out of ten in terms of performance in that goalie position. But we're we love Bob and Bob's a really good guy. So that's always going to hold that team back. And and that's okay for some organizations, for some leaders. but I think you know, whether it's that hockey team or whether it's on the military, if we're going to go in and do something that's exceptional, we need exceptional people around us and we need more eights, nines, and tens out of ten in terms of performance inside of each one of those positions along the way. And and that's gonna create a culture and that's gonna create a movement and that's gonna create an engagement from that team that will go and accomplish things that they never thought were possible. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, I love that analogy. I think but it it it's just a natural progression and your needs as an organization change and and y you know, people are great. You're gonna meet great people, but are they necessarily a fit for the organization for the long term? Sometimes not always, and that's okay. It's it's just a a name of the game and I think it's a tough conversation to have, for sure. a tough position to be in, but you know, the There's sacrifices and challenges you have to face in order to level up as an organization and as a leader as well. Yeah. Great, great analogy. So for the listeners who are listening today, these are owner operators who are, you know, doing what we're doing. They're they're doing their best to build a great business, serve great people, build that legacy and survive and thrive through this wild transitional period we're in. do you have any advice or maybe a takeaway that you'd like to leave the listeners with? Mike Moreau: in order to go and accomplish big things, you know, you can go it alone, but you're probably not gonna make it as far as you would if you went with more people. And if you're going to do that, you need to have the right people. And so the more that leaders understand how how people are driven and how that aligns with roles that we are assigning to them. everyb you know, everybody that's listening has had that experience of when we handed the ball to that individual and they were that nine out of ten in terms of performance. And we know what it feels like when we give somebody the ball and they're a two out of ten in terms of performance, or even a five out of ten where every day they're they're maybe struggling to keep up but not doing so badly that we can't move them aside. I think it's this This whole idea of how personality impacts performance is a body of knowledge that's really missing out there in the world. But the more that you start to to gain this knowledge and insight and experience, the more consistently you get the right people in the right places and the further that team goes and the more it accomplishes. Mickey Anderson: Mike, this has been so fantastic. So for the listeners who are interested in learning more about Concord and Traits, where would you like them to go to find you? Mike Moreau: Yeah, so we've got two dot coms on this. So traits dot com is is is where they can find information about the tool and then Concord Consulting dot com is where they can find out about our consulting business. Ultimately there are two things in one, but two different services that that we provide. Those are two great places. And then you can find me on LinkedIn as well. And I post post regularly on there. so a few different places that that you can find me. Mickey Anderson: Mike, this has been an absolute pleasure. I I love talking shop with you. I appreciate you joining me for today and for for sharing all the ins and outs of your business and and all these wonderful things. So thank you. Mike Moreau: Yeah, my pleasure, Mickey. This has been great. I've really enjoyed the conversation as well. And yeah, hopeful hope a few people in the in the listener group find this valuable. Mickey Anderson: I'm sure they will. we are all innately curious and wanting to know what other people are doing and how they're doing it and what's working and what's not. So getting these experience shares is so valuable. So thank you so much. And listeners, be sure to subscribe and follow so you get more from Unleashed. Thank you.