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And The Beat Goes On: Damian Fagan · CashcolorcannabisPodcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Cash Color Campus, a high level of conversation.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: This episode is sponsored by Building a Cannabis Eastern, but you don't have to do it alone.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: The Minority Cannabis Business Association has been creating pathways to equity, access, and real opportunity in the industry for 10 years.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: So whether you're just getting started or scaling your business, MCBA offers membership tiers designed to meet you where you are and help you grow.
0:25
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0:29
SPEAKER_01: Become a member today.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Head to minoritycannabis.org slash memberships and join now.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: And catch them live on the Business of Cannabis tour coming to a city near you.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: BIPOCCAN has been assisting social equity cannabis entrepreneurs in building, growing, and competing in this new industry since 2020.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: May 14th in Denver, Colorado, BIPOCCAN will host their annual Cannabis Equity Summit.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: This will be for members of their social equity cohort to meet with other partners, vendors, and sponsors.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Want to learn more about BIPOCCAN or how you become a member?
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Head to BIPOCan.com.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: The website would also be in this episode's caption.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: I am Mecca.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: This is Cash Color Cannabis, a higher level of conversation.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Today we are joined by Damian Fagan, one of the most recognizable voices in cannabis policy and social equity.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Throughout his career, Damien has worked at the intersection of legalization, regulation, and justice, helping shape conversations about what an equitable cannabis industry should look like.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: In this episode, we discuss New York's cannabis market, the challenges facing social equity entrepreneurs, the political backlash against DEI initiatives, and whether legalization is truly delivering on its promises to communities most impacted by prohibition.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: This is Cash Color Cannabis, a high level of conversation.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Hey, it's Cash Color Campus, a high level of conversation.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: I am back at it.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm again not at Live Hip Hop Daily Studios.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm at my house, which is Urban Grow Media Studios.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: And I have a great guest with me today, man.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: And that is Damian Fagan.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: If y'all haven't heard of this neck man's name, um, you most likely aren't in the East Coast, you know, or you're not in New York, but he has definitely been a trailblazer.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: He's been somebody who's done a lot of amazing work in the state of in this great state of New York.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: And um his voice just kind of carries across the across the industry overall.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: So I was blessed to be able to have him with this conversation today where we get into his background about how he got into cannabis, his work with the OCM, and um, you know, just some of the things that he's learned over this journey that he's been part of.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: But without further ado, Damian, how are you doing today?
2:38
SPEAKER_01: Doing great, brother.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: How are you?
2:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great, man.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Like we were chopping up on the on before I hit record.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm glad to finally kind of virtually meet you.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: I've heard of your name for a very long time.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: And also, shout out to that picture behind you, man.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: That's that's very perfect.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: It's right on brand for today.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's I've had that painting since I was like 17.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: I got it in DC, uh, where I'm from.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's like the Million Man March that happened in DC uh from a local painter.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: That's what's up, man.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, congratulations on that, bro.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: But um, but for those who aren't familiar with you, just please introduce yourself to the Cash Color Cannabis audience.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: So my name is Damian Fagan.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I am currently the director of the Bronx Cannabis Hub here in New York.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm also the policy director at the Parabola Center.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh prior to this, you know, I was uh the inaugural chief equity officer at New York State Office of Cannabis Management.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh I was a hemp farmer in New York State in the Hudson Valley.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: I've also farmed hemp in South Carolina.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh and, you know, my background prior to that is, you know, economics, agriculture, economic development, uh, primarily working with federal government.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: I was at the State Department for a few years.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I've worked in uh with farmers in in West Africa, in the Caribbean, and Latin America.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you know, that's kind of what brought me to cannabis is working with farmers.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: I love that, man.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, knowing your background, I would um love to first talk about your background with cannabis before we get into everything else.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: So, what was the first time that you discovered the plant and what was your relationship like been with and how has it evolved over time?
4:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my first relationship with the plant is like millions of other Americans, I was a consumer.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Um I was I was a I was a I was a big time consumer.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, always uh loved um, you know, as soon as I found the plant, you know, uh after high school, like fell in love with it.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I've been consuming it for a long time.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: And and uh I think you know, as I uh started diving deeper into agricultural economics and development work in Latin America, my family's from Jamaica, uh, and we have a farm there that is an orange farm.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, when I was in this world of uh agricultural economics, I was trying to understand a little bit better about how to bring more economic opportunity back home to Jamaica to that farm, to that rural community.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: And at the time, you know, uh hemp and cannabis were legalizing on the East Coast.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I kind of chose that as a commodity crop to explore uh development opportunities in the global south.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: So primarily looking at, you know, agricultural regions in the Caribbean, Central America, South America.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I really thought that this plant, um, both industrial hemp and legal adult use cannabis, uh, had huge potentials for economic opportunity, inclusive bottom-up development uh in those regions.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so that's what initially led me to the plan.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: It was I was a passionate consumer uh and I was in the field of agricultural development work.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, anytime one of these new commodities comes uh into the scene, uh, there's always going to be um stakeholders who are trying to shape it in such a way that only they can profit off of it.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, this happens in every large-scale industrial agricultural economy.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: The farmers always make the least amount of the money in the supply chain, whether it's coffee, uh, tea, uh, you know, uh tequila in Mexico.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of the value of these commodities is ends up being captured by brands and large corporations that are predominantly in the United States, in Europe.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: And cannabis, to me, you know, that belonged to the global south.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a plant that that grows primarily outdoors in the global south.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, cultures and regions that produced really distinct uh, you know, um uh cultures around consumption, around production.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I wanted to honor those traditions while also bringing economic opportunity to those regions.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Man, man.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's interesting that you have such a background in hemp because right now I feel like this is a whole separate question.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's like almost a small war between hemp and cannabis, as if this isn't the same plant.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, definitely on a when I say a policy side and definitely on a on that side.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, what's your opinion on that?
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Like the the the back and forth that's going between these two industries, almost like one can't exist without the one can't exist if the other one does.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say that the hemp industry has changed dramatically since I was in it.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: When I was in the hemp industry, it was, you know, uh folks who were looking to do industrial hemp, so fiber, um, hemp crete, things like things of that nature.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: The a lot of that was being sparked in North Carolina um and other areas in the south.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh and CBD.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: So that was the hemp industry.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: It was CBD, uh, primarily tinctures, uh, and you know, industrial uses for you know hemp.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think over time, um just the nature of the the that farm bill that that categorized hemp separately from from THC and from adult use cannabis, I think that uh uh profit-seeking entities started to exploit the loophole in the definition, uh, primarily big alcohol.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: Um and so uh I am not as thrilled at the direction of the hemp market today as I was previously.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that the way it's being uh kind of you know leveraged to uh you know create this beverage opportunity is not at all what hemp was ever intended to be.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh I think hemp has incredible environmental, sustainability, uh, and economic uh potential for agricultural economies uh that has nothing to do with THC beverages, um, hemp-derived THC beverages.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: It has a lot to do with sustainable house building, uh, you know, plastics, biodegradable plastics, uh, you know, uh a replacement for cotton in a lot of cases, which hemp really, really has the potential to do.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so that was my understanding of hemp.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Where that was headed was a totally different direction than where we are today.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: And it all just goes back to, you know, legislators in DC uh creating these bizarre classifications and definitions that are all ultimately about the same plant.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the companies that come in and exploit uh any issues or any any um contradictions in those definitions that are in law.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that we have a giant multi-billion dollar hemp drive THC industry today, primarily because uh the definitions are wrong under federal law.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly why we have it.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: Um and listen, I'm not I'm not uh you know saying that the businesses that are pursuing this opportunity are wrong.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: This is America.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: They are they they the legislators wrote the law that way, and and businesses and entrepreneurs have have the right to pursue that opportunity.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: I worry about the market that we are creating nationally uh with this bifurcated situation with with you know um alcohol distributors and producers going one direction with beverages and and a bunch of you know thousands, tens of thousands of small businesses going a different direction with adult use cannabis.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: I just don't think that is in the best interest of the consumer or the best interest of both industries.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a whole nother conversation, man.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: But let's let's get a long one, yeah.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a long one, but it's it's crazy that you brought that up because you know that popped in my mind.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: But how do let's talk about your work in New York?
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So, uh how did you find yourself involved with the OCM?
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Like when did that become an opportunity that was presented to you?
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let me let me uh say this very clearly because uh it started with an interview like this.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh in 2021, um, you know, the MRTA just passed.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh I was a hemp farmer and advocate in Harlem, and I happened to be on a friend's radio station in Harlem.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And in that interview, that you know, the the we were talking about the MRTA, the rollout of this legal market, the selection of Chris Alexander as the executive director.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we were analyzing it, the potential for Harlem, the potential for Black New Yorkers to benefit from this market.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: And fortunately for me, uh, the majority leader, Crystal People Stokes, happened to listen to that interview, and she invited me to Albany, uh, where we talked about the role.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it took a few months for back and forth to figure out if I was right for it.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but that's what led me to it was just straight up advocacy.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: I was going into um, I was taking media opportunities to talk about what I thought the state should be prioritizing to incentivize the participation of black New Yorkers, of those communities most harmed by the war on drugs.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: And the right people heard it.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And so for any activist out there who has ideas, um, well thought-out ideas, but like a perspective on on what's happening with cannabis, speak that truth.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that there are a lot of powerful, interested politicians, you know, um, businesses, advocates that that are also that are that are listening and looking for leadership in this space.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: I think that that that you know speaks to the one of the biggest challenges we have in cannabis is just cultivating leadership uh uh across the space.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, activists who can make a living just learning about this plant and the regulations around it, the laws around it, uh, speaking to politicians about it.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Um there aren't enough of those people uh because there isn't enough money in the space to really fund that kind of civic advocacy around the plant.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, to the best of people's ability, just always speak your truth about the plant.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: You never know who's listening.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: But that's what led me to um OCM.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh I was just a farmer and an advocate living in in the city, uh, primarily focused on you know creating access to this industry uh for black communities in the city.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: That's dope.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully this interview will lead you to somewhere else, man.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
12:34
SPEAKER_00: You never know, bro.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: You just gotta you gotta keep talking.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Um people are listening.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's cool.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh so during your time at the OCM, like what what were one of the priorities that you wanted to get started or see happen while you were there?
12:54
SPEAKER_00: Yo, so I'll say it like this.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, first of all, Chris Alexander is a brother to me.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh the reason I joined was because of him.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, I knew of his reputation as an advocate in New York uh with the Start Smart Coalition with Drug Policy Alliance.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh he's he authored the MRTA on top of a bunch of other laws that I'm a big fan of, like bail reform.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Um so the fact that he was the executive director was, you know, one of the reasons that I really joined OCM.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh but you know, the conversation I had with him and with Crystal before I took the job, I think, revolved around this.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Are we going for this?
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Are we doing this?
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Really, are we doing this?
13:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I wasn't gonna be, you know, the black equity face of some, you know, um half thought-out plan that was gonna look more like corporate social responsibility, a couple token dispensaries here or there, but largely just like a profit grab.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't want to do that.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: I'd seen how that rolled out in other states.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: I'd seen how the advocates in those states reacted to what the states built.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm speaking specifically about Maryland, which, you know, is a place where I'm I'm from around there.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, Illinois is another good example.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be the face of those programs.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: And so it really came down to, you know, an understanding I had with uh Chris and the majority leader that, you know, we were actually going to attempt to build a reparative market, that we were actually going to focus our efforts on involving those communities most harmed by prohibition, and that we wouldn't compromise.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, that that was that was once once I had those guarantees, once I had those assurances that this was actually something the state was going to pursue and that we had the statutory language to really protect us as we entered into it, um, that's when I knew I would do it.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of that, you know, a shout out to Chris, because Chris was, I had a chance to interview Chris when he took the position.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: He was a feature in our magazine as well.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And um, I hated to see the how he was handled.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking to myself, you you you touched on something else as well.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like the work that you were doing, that you were trying to actively create a social, social justice for a community that was harmed?
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like that was part of the reason that you got the blowback that did happen where we had Chris had to eventually resign over reasons and we had your removals?
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like part of the reasons that the OCM started getting some of the flack they did get was because of the work that was actually being done?
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes, without a doubt.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna blame you know any individual politicians or or or you know groups of people for that uh backlash.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: That backlash was nationwide.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, and and for for folks to understand the timeline here, the MRTA is passed in February 2021.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: That is maybe five months, four months after the the you know the the George Floyd protests uh that that took over New York City in 2020 and the election of Joe Biden.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: The politics were charged at the time.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, New Yorkers were committed to doing something progressive, inclusive, something that hadn't really been done before or ever attempted before.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Um the politics aligned with the MRTA at the time.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but in typical fashion, there's there's a backlash to that, um, just like we saw in the Obama years.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: And so quickly you saw, you know, uh a targeted uh attack on all DEI and equity programs across the country.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: You saw rollbacks in affirmative action, um uh corporate rollbacks and DEI initiatives, um, and a political situation where, you know, Democrats were really scared of jumping into equity work or racial justice work or reparations work, which was a word that really uh, you know, still freaks a lot of Democrats out.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I think that the political winds changed in the middle of what we were doing.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, that made us more of a target.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, New Yorkers were not ever accustomed to seeing people who spent time in prison getting verse dibs on a billion-dollar opportunity.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, there were a lot of people who were just, you know, fundamentally opposed to the to the idea, um, who had very different uh perspectives on who these individuals were.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, Chris and I knew knew who they were, um, not like individually, not personally, but we came from those communities.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, the card program that we launched the market with was, you know, um inspiring to a lot of people, but I think it was also very threatening to a lot of other interests as well.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh the way we designed the market really protected uh the retail economic opportunity and kind of uh locked it in for, you know, about 500 New Yorkers who were arrested for cannabis.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh these are not donors, these are not politically active generally, you know, members of political parties with a lot of stakeholder support.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, these are these are marginalized communities that uh in a lot of ways had been left behind out of every other economic opportunity that had come before, before cannabis.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: And I say that because those those arrests on their records legitimately like actually blocked them from other economic opportunities, from bank loans, housing, college, education, scholarships.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it was a complete flip uh to now say that that same arrest that kept them from those economic opportunities prioritizes them for this one.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And it broke a lot of brains.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm not even gonna lie, it didn't it didn't sit well with a lot of people.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, but that isn't to say that you know we weren't sure in in what we were doing.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: This the statute was clear, the law was clear.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh there was a preamble that like stated the intent and purpose of the MRTA was to to prioritize those communities.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And so we we felt that we were within um uh we were actually just living up to the mandate of the law.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, the political culture, the climate at the time that led up to the Trump uh, you know, president second second term, uh I think really uh put a put a target on our backs.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: But um aside from that, while you were working there, what were some of the things you were proud of that came out of that, came out of the work that you had your hands in while you were during while you were working there?
18:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the programs that I'm I'm I'm most proud of um uh is was the the CCTM program.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: So that was the cannabis uh compliance and training and mentorship program.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, in order for all the hemp farmers to go first and get those first cultivation licenses, they had to create this mentorship program for uh folks from communities uh impacted and the uh legacy market uh to provide a training program uh for those individuals so that they too could enter the production side of the market.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we we created a really innovative application uh uh for those communities.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking about growers primarily, like growers from the illicit market who are all over New York State and have been growing for decades.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh we we did not see a pathway to creating uh an effective, you know, successful market without prioritizing and including those people on the production side.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: We needed their genetics, we needed their brands, we needed that culture uh if we were going to have any legitimacy with the New York State consumer.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And so when we created that application, we created anonymized application so that folks who were still growing illicitly, were still in conflict with the law, could submit uh, you know, uh an application, a statement of purpose uh of what they were trying to do by entering the legal market, their experience, how many, you know, their experience with cultivation, uh their experience with indoor, outdoor, hydro, um, how many years of experience.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: And we scored them like a college application.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So we were able to train uh and mentor uh about 200 legacy growers and processors from all over New York State and ultimately deliver and provide for them uh priority access to the micro business license.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh so today, um dozens of legacy growers uh who are rooted in New York State cannabis production uh from the pre the previous market um are in the legal market, selling their brands all over all over the city, all over the state.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Um I follow them, uh, I talk to them still today and just check in on them to see how they're doing.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And and some of these entrepreneurs are just, you know, they're the most successful brands on the market uh as far as craft cannabis.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we ultimately, you know, saw is that these guys grow fantastic weed.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: They already have an established customer base.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, they want this.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of these, a lot of these folks, when we were talking to them in the lead up to the application for this program, they were telling us they they they want to open a bank account, they want to start saving for their kids' college.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: All these things are impossible to do if you're operating on the illicit side of the market.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: They were tired of that.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's just been fantastic to see these guys kind of thrive in a legal setting.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: That isn't to say that all of them are thriving in a legal setting.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: There's the transition's difficult.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: The micro business license is is difficult to get off the ground.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: There are still many of them who are trying to do that.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: But uh the the the couple dozen that that I've seen enter the legal market, seeing the success that they've had, I know that it's possible.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: And I and I and I think that what we what we really did build was the first legacy to legal licensing pipeline in the country.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Um Um and I just I just bought some of that that that cannabis last week.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like the best on the market.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh great, man.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Um if you could go back and change one thing about how the New York cannabis market was launched, um, what would it be?
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, the DASNY Fund.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Um and it was The Highly Converti, the highly controversial.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Highly controversial, rightfully so.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh it was a complete and utter disaster.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, the way that fund, the the social equity fund for New York um and and the DASNY rollout of the you know, the built-out dispensaries, that entire process was troubled from the beginning.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh and it was, you know, people forget, but you know, the state of New York was supposed to build out 150 turnkey retail dispensaries all over the state.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh and, you know, probably a year into that process, they hadn't even secured any leases.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, a year and a half, we maybe had two leases.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: And so we had hundreds of farmers, everyone remembers we had hundreds of farmers growing.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: We had no DASNE locations built out, we had nowhere to sell the product.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was it created this supply chain disaster.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh and on top of that, it it was uh you know saddling uh these justice-impacted entrepreneurs with incredible amounts of debt, um, high interest rates, uh, store like stores in locations that had you know upwards of$60,000 a month rent, which is just a crazy thing to try to run a dispensary profitably and pay$60,000 a month in rent.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Um and so it was an ill-conceived program.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that um uh DASNI really blew it in in terms of the build-out.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and today we have about 20 of those stores that are open.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Um and we have 630 other dispensaries where the the the licensees raised their own money, built out their own stores, and um are operating.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: So I just don't I I don't think that I think that program set us back like 18 months probably during the rollout uh and continues to you know harm some of our our our our entrepreneurs uh with predatory lending uh and you know difficult leases to manage.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Well I know now you're no longer working with them.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Um what was your what was it like when you had to leave?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Like describe the moment when you found out that now they're targeting you and they want you to exit this this this this office.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was a pretty dramatic, uh probably the most dramatic six months of my life.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: It was totally unnecessary.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: But um, yes, so there when when when there was um interest in changing leadership, uh there wasn't necessarily a conversation about um changing leadership.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: It was a very dramatic um uh you know phony investigation, paid leave situation it was it was over the top.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: It was a complete distraction from what was actually important, which was the health and viability of the program we had launched.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: Um and so you know, when I left, it it wasn't uh because of anything I did.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: I left because the conflict uh and the attacks were uh getting uh so um you know all-consuming that they were distracting from the rollout of the the equitable equity program.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it was it was making it difficult for my staff uh and for the state office cannabis management to do its job uh and and and to write by the licensees.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And so leaving was really just uh uh a way of of trying to calm the situation and allow the state to refocus its efforts on building this market.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh so you know, I I I'm very happy that, you know, uh as of a few months ago, you know, they the governor's office has nominated John Caguilla as the new acting executive director, someone I saw work in the office tirelessly to build this market right.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I have a lot of faith that they're headed in the right direction now.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there was about a year and a half uh there where um Chris had been pushed out, I had been pushed out, and the agency was rudderless.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: It was like leaderless, and and there was no direction given to the licensees.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh, there was no vision for what the market was supposed to be from leadership.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, it was kind of this standstill that where a lot of people were wondering if the New York market was going to actually work.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, fortunately, as we were, as we were being pushed out, um, the market started to work.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Um like any like rollout, it takes years for people to build these grows, to build these dispensaries to actually become operational.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and within like you know, a year of us leaving the office, we had almost 500 dispensaries, you know, 400, you know, licensed and operating growers, a thriving supply chain that will probably do$3 billion in sales this year.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think this happens in every market where speed becomes this, you know, category that everyone thinks, you know, means your market successful.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: The faster you can roll it out, the better it is.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's never been true.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: You can very quickly roll out a bullshit market, which a lot of states have done, uh, where consumers, you know, years later are still disappointed in the market.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: They're not converting people from the illicit market because the products suck.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, companies, uh, you know, markets that are dominated by like four companies almost entirely.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we could have built that in a year.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, but New Yorkers didn't want that.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: The MRTA didn't demand that.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: That's not what the advocates fought for.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, what they fought for was an intentional, uh, you know, uh thoughtful rollout of an equitable, sustainable market, which is what we have today.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: It just takes a little bit longer than I think people are used to, especially when you start talking about state government bureaucracy, which is a whole other, whole other mess.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, is I mean, the state government, state governments in this country cannot do things quickly.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, the they can they can't build things quickly, um, they can't launch things quickly.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's just the nature of state government.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: I think uh we really do, as an industry, have to temper our expectations with uh when a state legalizes, you know, they they they've done probably the easiest part of the whole thing, which is write the law.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh, the implementation aspect requires insane staffing levels, like qualified staffing, like hundreds of people you have to hire that uh to oversee a new and um like why uh very difficult and challenging and complex supply chain.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: And so if you don't give your state uh electeds and legislators like, you know, time to actually build the market right, if you just prioritize speed, you're gonna be left disappointed.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: And so um I think that is one of the biggest lessons from our rollout is yeah, you it took three years to reach this point now where we have a multi-billion dollar supply chain that is my uh majority minority owned, uh and and and includes farmers all over upstate New York and justice impacted New Yorkers running businesses in the city.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: That took three years to build, and now we have it forever.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have it for the for the next generation.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think that people really need to take their time with legalization generally because this market's not going anywhere.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think sometimes, you know, we all get caught up in uh the entrepreneur who quit their job and and and got all this investment money and they're ready.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Um and they see everything from the perspective of their being ready, um, not understanding that they're not, you know, we're not building your business.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: We're building a market that's supposed to be here for a hundred years.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so love that, man.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of people talk about equity, you know, and that's a it's it's been a hot button topic for for now going on 10 years in cannabis, equity, social equity, and what that means.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, what do you feel like real cannabis equity actually looks like in your in your eyes?
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, we did it uh very differently in New York, and uh I think that's a testament to, you know, uh Senator Liz Kruger.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a testament to Senator Liz Kruger um and and Majority Leader Crystal People Stokes, who when they wrote the law, uh they didn't just say, you know, prioritize these communities, uh, you know, um do this reinvestment.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: They did they did these things, but they they went further than I think every other cannabisation bill has ever done.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh they defined the market.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Um they they established uh license limitations, how many, how many licenses one owner could could have.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh they um uh dictated how you know licensing needs to happen where where where communities impacted need to be prioritized.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Um these statutory guardrails uh really uh speak to the fact that New York's version of equity is about the market itself.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we're not just adding on to the market, we're not just creating a market and then being like, all right, now let's create this special class of licensing, social equity licensing, to go into that market.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Um New York started their equity program at the beginning.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh the market is designed equitably.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Um by creating a two-tier market in New York's case where supply is separate from retail, uh, we created opportunities for thousands of small businesses.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we all know the challenges of getting capital to start these businesses.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, there's no private banks, it's a schedule one narcotic, yada, yada, yada.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: How can we create a market where someone could join the market or get licensed and get into the market for$50,000, uh, which is what we ended up doing.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: So in a two-tier market, we have, you know, young black entrepreneurs in in Syracuse and in um Newburgh who were able to open dispensaries for$50,000, uh, or were able to open micros, micro business licenses for$100,000.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, because now they don't need to, you know, just to compete, they don't need to own five dispensaries, two grows, 100,000 square feet of canopy.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: They can start small and build.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think whenever you create a market where you create a level playing field, you you focus on making sure competition is fair, you focus on making sure access to licensing is fair and even, um, you will start to see women, uh, black and brown people, young people succeed in those markets.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, when you create a market that allows the medical operators to go first and control all the production and have 100,000 square foot of canopy and have vertical integration and all these other things, which are just hangovers from the pharmaceutical, the medical cannabis industry, um, you block off access to millions of Americans who will never be able to enter that space because they do not have$5 million to do so.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is how New York did equity differently.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: We shaped our market around equity.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And uh the last thing I'll say about that is that like equity is not some sort of sacrifice to a healthy, dynamic market.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: In this case, equity uh is the reason New York is going to have the best market in the country because we have thousands of small businesses all creating their own versions of what legal cannabis looks like, all competing on level playing fields.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, if you go to any of our stores in New York City and Brooklyn, you'll find black-owned dispensaries selling a lot of black-owned products.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: You'll find Hispanic, you know, women-owned dispensaries uh that where their identity is part of the brand of the dispensary.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Um and they're all in the same neighborhood, um, appealing to different consumers.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, an equitable market is also a dynamic market, a growing market, an innovating market, um, a market that consumers prefer, a market that is consumer-driven largely.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what we really did is we married um, you know, a fair, competitive, innovative market with an equity program and combined them into one.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: And that is the New York market.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: That's what's up, man.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: What do you want to be remembered for the most?
33:48
SPEAKER_00: For the for this market, you know, you know, Chris and I always really did have, you know, one unifying vision, and that was, you know, we knew who the most harmed communities were, and and that was black New Yorkers in Harlem, in the South Bronx, in on on the South Side of Albany, um, uh in Arbor Hill and in Buffalo, and and it's it's black business ownership in cannabis.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that uh we really did, you know, try to gauge the effectiveness of our programs, uh, of our initiatives on uh whether or not it was serving Black New Yorkers, uh, whether or not it was serving those communities that we visited in Syracuse and Long Island that had been over policed.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of folks, especially on the West Coast, uh maybe who who who don't understand what all the hoopla was about in New York.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: And um, we just got out of 40 years of the worst, most violent, oppressive prohibition of cannabis in the country.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Like New York City was the arrest capital of the whole world.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, we're talking, you know, 1.2 million arrests over like 30 years.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, and many of these arrests were not, you know, justified.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: They they were arrested, they were, they were booked, and then they were released.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, but these things stained people's records, um, limited their their economic mobility, uh, separated families, the deportations in New York State alone, tens of thousands of deportations.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: And so we broke up families.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, you can't just turn that off.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Those those those individuals, those families, those communities, they're still here.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, you know, legalizate prohibition of legalization, that gap was like two years.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you can't create a market in New York that doesn't have them involved.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to work.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, the communities are not going to transition over from the illicit market.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they're not going to view it as legitimate.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, they're going to view it as gentrification, uh, which is what it would be if if they weren't included, which is what it would be if there wasn't tax reinvestment.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: It would just be straight-up economic displacement and gentrification.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that there were uh New York was lucky to have elected leaders uh and advocates like Chris and Dashita Dawson uh and Cassandra Frederic who, you know, basically said, you're not gonna embarrass our people like that.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna, you're not gonna exploit our people for decades and then not include us uh in in in the building of this market.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Um and that was that was you know fought for intensely for years.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, there were multiple opportunities to legalize cannabis in New York before the MRTA.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: They all would have created markets that look exactly like Illinois, um, that, that, that, where, where five companies would have made most of the money.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: And black legislators weren't having it.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Um they they they all the data from the the economic collateral consequences of prohibition, the the billions of dollars that were were extracted from from black and brown communities all over the state, you know, that was all documented, well documented by universities, professors, statisticians, the state, the city.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so uh they held off until they had uh the the right opportunity to pass the right bill, which was the MRTA.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Man, salute you, man.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: You did a lot of great work.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm really proud to have this conversation with you and allow you to share your story, man.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: It was really dope having this conversation with you.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: If somebody wanted to learn more about what you were doing or if they wanted to contact you on social media, how would they do that?
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh, you know, I split my time uh pretty uh uh consistently between uh the Bronx Cannabis Hub, which is which is at the Bronx Defenders um in Central Bronx uh here in New York and the Parabola Center in Massachusetts.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: And so if you go to ParabolaCenter.com, Bronxcannabis Hub.org, uh you can find out more about our work.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh Parabola Center is doing uh our annual policy summit, our people over profits policy summit in Fort Lauderdale this year in July.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: If you go to parabolacenter.com, you can find out more information about being involved with that um training.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do a leadership training, we're gonna do uh a day of uh policy education for Florida legislators and activists down there.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we're really trying to spread more awareness about these conversations around cannabis utilization.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: It is not just a matter of saying like legal or not legal.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: You got to dive into the details.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: You got to understand how every rule they write into your laws dictates what your cannabis market's gonna look like for the next 50 years.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna tell you if you can have craft products where you know someone makes an edible uh in your in your neighborhood that they can sell at a local store or not, or you're just gonna have the same corporate slop that every other legal market kind of sells.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: I think if you're a cannabis consumer, the work at Parabola Center is directly related to your experience going forward in the legal market.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: And at the hub, you know, we are still uh working to open up more justice impacted owned dispensaries across the state.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh to date, the Bronx Cannabis Hub, we've opened seven, we've helped open 17 of those dispensaries, um, uh card dispensaries, justice impacted owned dispensaries.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've got two more coming in the next month.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, you know, the work continues to make sure that the promise of the MRTA, we actually deliver on it uh in an effective and permanent way.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, this is not something that uh we want uh to be this temporary uh salve, you know, like, hey, look, guys, we tried.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: No, this is these are general, these are supposed to be generational businesses.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is a generational economic opportunity for communities harmed under prohibition with the reinvestment tax dollars flowing out, with the businesses getting operational.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so Bronx Cannabis, however, we're locked in to make sure that, you know, the next five years, like this, this is this works.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: This continues to work and continues to deliver for the communities that that deserve it.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Damien, I appreciate your time.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: This has been an amazing conversation, man.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: Great to meet you finally.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully I can grow.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna see you soon in our Fort Lauder.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: See you in Fort Lauder, though, brother.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: No, no, I appreciate your time, man.
39:39
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