Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Mark Ronson Finds The Perfect Sound

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Mark Ronson Finds The Perfect Sound · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushnick. Pushnick
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Speaker 1: Broken Record. You can try it for free for seven days.
0:47
Speaker 1: Sign up for Pushnick and Apple podcast subscriptions. Mark Ronson's
0:59
Speaker 1: big break as a producer came from working with Amy
1:02
Speaker 1: Winehouse to find the perfect sound for her career to
1:05
Speaker 1: find an album Back to Black, I Have No Time
1:10
Speaker 1: to Champions with his same save. Since then, Ronson's gone
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Speaker 1: on to win an Oscar, a Golden Globe, and seven
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Speaker 1: Grammys for producing chart topping hits for artists like Lady Gaga,
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Speaker 1: Adele and Bruno Mars. Ronson's sound is often associated with danceable,
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Speaker 1: driving rhythm sections, which makes sense considering his background as
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Speaker 1: a renowned DJ. Recently, Ronson's put his musical knowledge on
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Speaker 1: display as the host of The Fader's new podcast Uncovered,
1:47
Speaker 1: and this month he'll start in a multipart documentary for
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Speaker 1: Apple TV Plus that explores the evolution of music technology.
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Speaker 1: In today's interview with Rick Rubin, we'll hear Mark talk
1:57
Speaker 1: about the day he met Amy Winehouse and how she
2:00
Speaker 1: might have confused him for Rick Rubin. Mark also talks
2:03
Speaker 1: about the night he fell in love with Djane, growing
2:05
Speaker 1: up with his stepdad and foreigner, and how being isolated
2:08
Speaker 1: from his studio during the pandemic caused him to think
2:11
Speaker 1: his days as a pop music producer might be over.
2:18
Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital Age.
2:21
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Mark ronson where
2:30
Speaker 1: did you grow up? I grew up in London. I
2:33
Speaker 1: was born in England and I lived there until I
2:36
Speaker 1: was eight, and then my mother remarried my stepdad. He
2:41
Speaker 1: was English a musician, but he lived in New York,
2:43
Speaker 1: so we all moved to New York. I definitely consider
2:46
Speaker 1: myself in New Yorker. I mean I spent time going
2:48
Speaker 1: back and forth now between London and New York, and
2:51
Speaker 1: I've sent blocks of time in England, and I feel
2:54
Speaker 1: very connected to England, but I do feel like a
2:56
Speaker 1: New Yorker. Do you remember much of your life from
3:01
Speaker 1: eight years old down. I don't think I remembered life
3:05
Speaker 1: in London is and I was taking it in geographically
3:08
Speaker 1: because you're you know, when your kid is just where
3:10
Speaker 1: you live. But I definitely have memories from even though
3:13
Speaker 1: my real father is not and i'd say real father
3:17
Speaker 1: it sounds like a slight to my stepfather. I mean,
3:19
Speaker 1: they're both really important figures in my life. At my
3:21
Speaker 1: dad was really into music. He wasn't the musician, and
3:25
Speaker 1: I just remember them throwing a lot of parties and
3:29
Speaker 1: waking up in the middle of the night, like four
3:31
Speaker 1: years old, going down and just seeing like all these
3:35
Speaker 1: grown ups in this room, as you know, waist high
3:39
Speaker 1: and sort of oblivious to like the hubbub and the mess.
3:43
Speaker 1: I would just go towards the speaker of wherever the
3:45
Speaker 1: music was coming from, and I would just sit in
3:48
Speaker 1: front of the speaker and I would play air drums.
3:50
Speaker 1: I would mime the drums and like, I have memories
3:54
Speaker 1: like that, a lot of formative memories about music. And
3:56
Speaker 1: then my dad did get me like a kid's drum kit,
4:00
Speaker 1: because when I would wake up in the middle of
4:02
Speaker 1: the night and go jam in front of the speakers,
4:05
Speaker 1: somebody was I mean, there was always like Nigel Elson
4:09
Speaker 1: who played drums with Elton John, or like Simon Kirk
4:12
Speaker 1: from Bad Company. Someone was always over like late night,
4:14
Speaker 1: and I think someone was like, you know, pointed and
4:16
Speaker 1: was like, hey, you should get your son a pair
4:18
Speaker 1: of drums. Like he's you know, he looks like he's
4:20
Speaker 1: really into it. So I remember playing along with a
4:23
Speaker 1: drum kit to the radio. Describe the household in England,
4:28
Speaker 1: like what was your room? Like, describe the place? You know,
4:31
Speaker 1: when I think about it, it does come back. So
4:34
Speaker 1: I remember a bunk bed. I had meningitis when I
4:38
Speaker 1: was a young kid, which is quite heavy. I didn't
4:40
Speaker 1: have the there's two, there's viral, and there's something else.
4:43
Speaker 1: So I had the one that you don't die from, obviously,
4:46
Speaker 1: but I had to be taken to the hospital and
4:49
Speaker 1: have like a spinal tap. I remember being in my
4:52
Speaker 1: bedroom having I think, like having to be held down
4:56
Speaker 1: and like, I mean, I don't have like the most
4:59
Speaker 1: pleasant memories. Also my house, childhood house growing up, was
5:02
Speaker 1: a pretty turbulent house. My parents were. They were like
5:07
Speaker 1: a young couple. They had me quite young. I remember
5:10
Speaker 1: fights and slamming doors and a lot of yelling and tears.
5:15
Speaker 1: That's how I mean. I hate to say it sounds
5:17
Speaker 1: like a downer and I love both of my parents,
5:18
Speaker 1: but that's how I remember growing up in London. Yeah,
5:21
Speaker 1: And did you have brothers and sisters? I had brothers
5:24
Speaker 1: and sisters. My mom and dad had three of us,
5:28
Speaker 1: me and two sisters who were twins. And then when
5:33
Speaker 1: we moved to New York, my mom remarried and had
5:36
Speaker 1: two more kids. My dad remarried and had three more
5:39
Speaker 1: in England, so I have a big family. And then
5:40
Speaker 1: two stepbrothers, so there's ten of us all together. Did
5:43
Speaker 1: you move to New York four based on your mom's
5:48
Speaker 1: relationship or did you move to New York and then
5:50
Speaker 1: your mom found the relationship. No, we moved based on
5:53
Speaker 1: the relationship. I see. We moved as she had fallen
5:57
Speaker 1: in love with my stepdad. They fell in love with
5:58
Speaker 1: each other, and he was like, come live with me
6:02
Speaker 1: in New York. I mean, that wasn't the easiest thing,
6:04
Speaker 1: I'm sure, because I know my dad didn't want us
6:06
Speaker 1: to leave. But you know, somehow we go out to
6:09
Speaker 1: New York. And would you say your relationship with both
6:12
Speaker 1: of them was decent with both my parents or both
6:16
Speaker 1: my dads, but let's say both your dad's first. Yeah,
6:19
Speaker 1: definitely my dad like a lot of like English guys,
6:24
Speaker 1: like growing up in the sixties, like he was like
6:26
Speaker 1: a soul fanatic, like he had forty fives of stacks
6:30
Speaker 1: winder k frog like not just that kind of obvious
6:33
Speaker 1: things and sorry, And I remember he loved like he
6:37
Speaker 1: loved horns and like soul music. And I even remember
6:40
Speaker 1: when I was like really young, he like gave me
6:42
Speaker 1: the CDs like I bought this. It was Day Last Soul,
6:45
Speaker 1: the first album three Ft High and Rising. He was like,
6:47
Speaker 1: I don't get it, Like you know, he bought it
6:49
Speaker 1: because somebody who knew that he liked soul or groove
6:51
Speaker 1: music said you should check this out. I remember he
6:54
Speaker 1: had grand Master Flash in the Furious five the Message
6:57
Speaker 1: and he played that all the time, Like so I
6:59
Speaker 1: got this. I think I got this great love of
7:03
Speaker 1: very rhythmic based music from him. And then my stepdad
7:07
Speaker 1: would let me, you know, around with his equipment. He
7:10
Speaker 1: had a ky little eight track recorders and I mean
7:15
Speaker 1: he even had like a synclavier, which is I'm sure
7:17
Speaker 1: you remember this crazy two hundred thousand dollars like programmable
7:21
Speaker 1: sequencer that yeah. I mean he must have been laughing
7:23
Speaker 1: when he was just like, yeah, go teach yourself how
7:25
Speaker 1: to use that. But I could, like very wrote, teach
7:28
Speaker 1: myself how to remake like turns trend Derby's wishing well
7:31
Speaker 1: on it. So anyway, the fact that I got this
7:33
Speaker 1: love of this music from my dad and then my
7:36
Speaker 1: stepdad sort of fostered my basically like wanting to be
7:41
Speaker 1: around equipment, wanting to play around with it, do that stuff.
7:43
Speaker 1: So they were both really important in that. Did you
7:46
Speaker 1: ever go on tour with your dad? I did when
7:48
Speaker 1: I was six or seven. I mean I guess Foreigner.
7:51
Speaker 1: That was foreign of four, you know, like Jukebox Hero
7:54
Speaker 1: on Urgin and Waiting for a Girl like you. They
7:56
Speaker 1: were playing these massive places and he took my mom
8:01
Speaker 1: and me and my two sisters on tour and it
8:04
Speaker 1: was amazing. I mean it was my first time going
8:06
Speaker 1: around America, going to like Texas and going to six
8:08
Speaker 1: Flags and just like this shiit like for a kid,
8:10
Speaker 1: And the drum riser was probably like twelve feet tall,
8:14
Speaker 1: like you know, these big kind of rock shows, and
8:17
Speaker 1: they would let me go backstage behind everybody and like
8:20
Speaker 1: crouch behind the drum riser and I would just play.
8:23
Speaker 1: I knew the set so well, I would mind what
8:26
Speaker 1: the drummer Dennis Elliott was doing. I definitely like that's
8:29
Speaker 1: just certainly an ongoing theme for me. Was there every
8:32
Speaker 1: time that you imagine being a musician like being a
8:36
Speaker 1: performer musician. I mean I played in school bands, you know,
8:40
Speaker 1: and in my high school band, and so it's like
8:43
Speaker 1: this New York era of that we were like in
8:46
Speaker 1: the band sort of mixed racially. There were two black musicians.
8:52
Speaker 1: There was me and two of my friends, and it
8:55
Speaker 1: was like the era of the black rock Coalition of
8:58
Speaker 1: like twenty four seven, Spies Living Color, Like we loved
9:01
Speaker 1: all those bands. And then I was super into the
9:05
Speaker 1: Black Crows. Who knows have played like two Black Crows
9:07
Speaker 1: covers in our set to I didn't even know. Hard
9:10
Speaker 1: to Handle was by Otis Redding. And then there was
9:13
Speaker 1: like this hip hops. I was discovering hip hop, so
9:16
Speaker 1: we'd sort of had rappers come on stage. So anyway,
9:18
Speaker 1: this is my band that I played with. We had
9:20
Speaker 1: opened for the spin Doctors and stuff at Wetlands and
9:22
Speaker 1: play The Bitter End. But I was the worst musician
9:26
Speaker 1: in the band, like they get to other musicians could
9:29
Speaker 1: shred and I like had feel, but I was just
9:31
Speaker 1: like I wasn't going to be slash. I wasn't gonna
9:34
Speaker 1: be Vernon Reid. But I got into DJing and I
9:37
Speaker 1: always was a fan of like liner notes, and i'd
9:39
Speaker 1: weirdly like read Billboard when I was six. So there's
9:43
Speaker 1: things started to happen that I started to amass a
9:46
Speaker 1: bit of a tool kit that was like, okay, well
9:49
Speaker 1: I'm not good enough at this one thing. I'm not
9:51
Speaker 1: really good enough at that thing. But if I amass
9:53
Speaker 1: this sort of like AmAm of things that I love
9:56
Speaker 1: and I'm interested in, and that's what led me to
9:59
Speaker 1: being a producer. Oh why did you play in the band?
10:03
Speaker 1: I played rhythm guitar, but like the other guy had
10:06
Speaker 1: like the like Cramer, like the Kip Winger like guitar.
10:09
Speaker 1: I was like shredding and like then it'd be like
10:11
Speaker 1: my time is still in the set and like pre
10:14
Speaker 1: like just playing like an average white band riff or something.
10:16
Speaker 1: But I did love it. I mean I actually remember
10:19
Speaker 1: my best friend from high school talking to him like
10:22
Speaker 1: in the you know, sixteen, plotting your dreams, and I
10:25
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I think I'm going to be like
10:27
Speaker 1: a guitarist in a in a band and all these things.
10:30
Speaker 1: And Alex Kane he's still one of my best friends.
10:32
Speaker 1: He goes, I just see you as more of like
10:34
Speaker 1: a behind the scenes type of guy, and at that
10:37
Speaker 1: moment I was like, you know, I probably like hung
10:39
Speaker 1: up with him. I was like, fuck you dude, like
10:41
Speaker 1: you don't know where I'm going, and he was like
10:43
Speaker 1: completely right. Actually, how old were you with the first
10:47
Speaker 1: time he started going to clubs ader when I was
10:50
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen. I loved, like, I just loved all
10:54
Speaker 1: these like English but I had the good things as
10:56
Speaker 1: well about going back to England once or twice you
10:59
Speaker 1: to visit my dad. I would discover things like Blur
11:02
Speaker 1: and the Wonder Stuff and just EMF and just you know,
11:06
Speaker 1: things that were just like really cool. That was you know,
11:09
Speaker 1: back when it would take six months for a band
11:11
Speaker 1: like that to get to Americas. You know, now everything's
11:13
Speaker 1: so global and instantaneous. So I would get really excited
11:17
Speaker 1: when these bands would come over to play in New
11:20
Speaker 1: York at venues like the Marquis or the Ritz. But
11:23
Speaker 1: of course I was twelve thirteen years old. My mother
11:25
Speaker 1: wouldn't let me go to these shows. So I managed
11:28
Speaker 1: to get a job writing for this inter school music
11:31
Speaker 1: paper because I could tell her that I was going
11:34
Speaker 1: to review the shows and she would let me. She
11:36
Speaker 1: would let me go. And I interned at Rolling Stone
11:41
Speaker 1: Magazine in the summers when I was like twelve, thirteen
11:45
Speaker 1: and fourteen maybe, so I'd occasionally get like a freebee
11:48
Speaker 1: tickets and go to shows. And I loved, I mean,
11:51
Speaker 1: I loved going to shows. It was like, I remember
11:54
Speaker 1: the Marquis so well. I remember like different venues. What
11:58
Speaker 1: was the Rolling Stone office like when you were a kid?
12:01
Speaker 1: What did that feel like to go there? That was incredible?
12:04
Speaker 1: I mean I just felt like, I mean, I'm sure
12:06
Speaker 1: it was even more relaxed. It wasn't like it was
12:09
Speaker 1: in the seventies, but more relaxant was now. And I
12:11
Speaker 1: was just this kid. It was like, they just give
12:14
Speaker 1: me any job that could fit in, whether it's sometimes
12:16
Speaker 1: like manning the switchboard because you had to like answer
12:19
Speaker 1: the phone and like send people to different extensions. And
12:23
Speaker 1: I would answer the phone. I'm sure my voice for
12:25
Speaker 1: the first year or two like hadn't even broken yet,
12:28
Speaker 1: so I'd be like hello, and then I would run around,
12:31
Speaker 1: and it was back in the day when they compiled
12:34
Speaker 1: their own album chart by calling thirty mom and pop
12:38
Speaker 1: stores and doing a media and average and then deciding
12:41
Speaker 1: what the number one record was. So it would be
12:43
Speaker 1: my job to call. And there were people there like
12:45
Speaker 1: David Frick, like Legends, Sheila Rogers, Anthony to Curtis, David Wild,
12:50
Speaker 1: these really cool people that were just like thought it
12:53
Speaker 1: was like kind of funny though it was just like
12:54
Speaker 1: this kid running around and they could tell how into
12:56
Speaker 1: it I was. I realized how lucky I was, and
12:59
Speaker 1: how lucky I was how they treated me, like, yeah, absolutely.
13:03
Speaker 1: What would you say was the first music that you
13:06
Speaker 1: felt like with your music as opposed to your parents
13:09
Speaker 1: parents music? My parents were like quite. I can't remember
13:13
Speaker 1: if like my stepdad, even though it wasn't his music,
13:16
Speaker 1: like he was interested in like the stuff that I
13:19
Speaker 1: was into. But I definitely would say that early nineties
13:23
Speaker 1: hip hop in New York, things like Black Moon, Pete
13:27
Speaker 1: Rock and See like when I was fifteen sixteen, when
13:30
Speaker 1: I discovered those things, that was really like my own
13:33
Speaker 1: because even the heavier rock stuff wasn't that much of
13:36
Speaker 1: a far cry from my stepdad and foreign and the music.
13:39
Speaker 1: You know, he was shredding. So I would say that
13:43
Speaker 1: the New York hip hop seeing the stuff that I
13:45
Speaker 1: would hear on like Stretcher Armstrong. Yeah, would your friends
13:48
Speaker 1: in school have similar tastes? Would you say? I had
13:51
Speaker 1: two best friends in school, Alex Kane, who told me
13:53
Speaker 1: I was never going to be a guitar hero. And
13:55
Speaker 1: then my friend Daniel Sally, and he was. He was
13:58
Speaker 1: like the first one to have Eric b and rock
14:00
Speaker 1: him paid in full. And then there were like three
14:04
Speaker 1: or four black students that I was friends with in
14:07
Speaker 1: school that like if I would kind of put me
14:09
Speaker 1: onto stuff. And then if I heard a song on
14:12
Speaker 1: the radio that I'd taped on a radio show and
14:14
Speaker 1: I didn't know what it was, I would bring it
14:15
Speaker 1: into school the next day and be like, hey, like Conrad,
14:18
Speaker 1: can you listen to this and tell me what song
14:20
Speaker 1: this is? And you'd be like, that's NAS halftime, like
14:24
Speaker 1: you've never heard the song before. And then those comrade
14:28
Speaker 1: Michael and Jerry, who were the you know, three black
14:31
Speaker 1: students in my class. They were in a musical talent
14:35
Speaker 1: show and they knew that I had this equipment at home,
14:37
Speaker 1: These samplers that were like, I barely knew how to
14:40
Speaker 1: use and they were like, do you want to try
14:42
Speaker 1: and make us like a track for this talent show?
14:45
Speaker 1: It was like a judge by Reverend Al Sharpton. It
14:48
Speaker 1: was in Stuyvesant. It's like cool, And my understanding of
14:53
Speaker 1: how the samplers worked was so wrote that I had
14:56
Speaker 1: to make sure that the samples were the exact same
14:58
Speaker 1: tempo and hit play at the exact same time. I
15:00
Speaker 1: didn't know how to sink anything up. It was just
15:02
Speaker 1: like that. And then Michael Leo was like, you know,
15:08
Speaker 1: it's like what you're doing is very similar to DJ,
15:11
Speaker 1: like you know anything about DJ? And I was like, no,
15:12
Speaker 1: what's that? And he's like, well, you're taking records and
15:14
Speaker 1: you're mixing, you're blending tempos at the same thing. And
15:17
Speaker 1: I think that was one of the first things I
15:20
Speaker 1: ever put the seed in my head of like DJ,
15:22
Speaker 1: Like what's what is that? And how old we at
15:24
Speaker 1: that point in time? Sixteen and what was the first
15:28
Speaker 1: time that you went to a club to check out DJs,
15:31
Speaker 1: like where you were aware that there was a DJ
15:34
Speaker 1: controlling the music in the room. I remember it really well.
15:37
Speaker 1: My friends would all go to these raves that were
15:39
Speaker 1: put on by NASA because it was all ages and
15:43
Speaker 1: your acid, shrooms, ecstasy. You know, you'd be tripping and
15:46
Speaker 1: everyone go dance to techno and then there was you'd
15:51
Speaker 1: go and you'd like hook up in the chill out room.
15:53
Speaker 1: I keep hearing Ricky Palla my head saying, I kids
15:56
Speaker 1: say heckno to techno. He's like, you know his rapid
15:59
Speaker 1: he used to do before the VSTs went on, which
16:02
Speaker 1: is that's so funny. Yeah, But I just couldn't get
16:06
Speaker 1: with the techno. I wasn't like snobby or something. It
16:09
Speaker 1: was just because it was fast and it was like
16:12
Speaker 1: it was straight. And I would always end up in
16:14
Speaker 1: the chill out room where they'd be like an interesting
16:16
Speaker 1: DJ like Dmitri from Delight or somebody like that. And
16:20
Speaker 1: there was this DJ named Annie that was now I
16:24
Speaker 1: know him and his real name is Annie A and
16:26
Speaker 1: I but it was one like O n Dashy and
16:29
Speaker 1: he was killing it. It was like cutting doubles of something.
16:33
Speaker 1: And I went and I was just so transfixed, and
16:37
Speaker 1: probably because I was, you know, on some psychedelic drugs
16:40
Speaker 1: as well, and I was so captivated, and I really
16:44
Speaker 1: think that that was just like one of those moments
16:46
Speaker 1: where it's just like, oh, I want to do that now,
16:48
Speaker 1: because like not only did I love the music that
16:52
Speaker 1: he was playing, but obviously like watching you know, the
16:54
Speaker 1: hands and it was just so it was so interesting.
16:58
Speaker 1: So yeah, so that was kind of it. When you
17:00
Speaker 1: went to the NASA parties as kid. What with the venues.
17:04
Speaker 1: It was the shelter. It was that giant place down
17:07
Speaker 1: on varick On. I think it was like one seventy
17:10
Speaker 1: bar next really close to Wetlands, so it was this
17:13
Speaker 1: really big giant warehouse and you would sort of like
17:18
Speaker 1: wait online and it was crazy that the accessories that
17:21
Speaker 1: people were where. It was like you would take a
17:25
Speaker 1: dog toy of like Burt and Ernie the sesame street
17:28
Speaker 1: guys and put it on a on a necklace around
17:31
Speaker 1: like a shoe string around and then have like ski
17:34
Speaker 1: goggles and then you would have to like take your
17:37
Speaker 1: pumas like the Puma clides or like these classic shoes
17:40
Speaker 1: to like the guy that would put platform like rubber platforms.
17:43
Speaker 1: It was like, but yeah, everybody looked like this kind
17:46
Speaker 1: of like freak. I mean, I guess it wasn't that
17:49
Speaker 1: far from when you watch that HBO show that scares
17:53
Speaker 1: me so much because the kids are just getting so
17:55
Speaker 1: fucked up, and like, I'm like, a kids really like that.
17:57
Speaker 1: But I'm like, oh shit, we were like that. It's
18:00
Speaker 1: funny as you're describing it. I never made the connection before,
18:03
Speaker 1: but it sounds like we could be talking about glam
18:05
Speaker 1: and glitter rock, you know, like because it's definitely related
18:08
Speaker 1: like that, the while the look isn't the same. Yeah,
18:12
Speaker 1: platforms and yeah, yeah, and just looking like you wanted
18:16
Speaker 1: to know, like you were really like marking who your
18:19
Speaker 1: tribe was. Yeah, and it looked more almost like what
18:22
Speaker 1: you'd wear on stage as opposed to what you'd wear
18:24
Speaker 1: being an audience member. Yeah, it was. It was definitely
18:27
Speaker 1: like you were wearing stuff to draw attention to yourself.
18:30
Speaker 1: For Shure, it was like peacocking. Oh what was your
18:33
Speaker 1: first DJ gig? It was at a bar on the
18:37
Speaker 1: Upper east Side. I had my turntables for probably three weeks,
18:41
Speaker 1: and there was a guy that I knew that through
18:43
Speaker 1: parties where they let under h kids and on bars
18:46
Speaker 1: on the Upper east Side. There were places like that
18:48
Speaker 1: and the Upper west Side, and I just remember hassling
18:51
Speaker 1: him and calling him and I probably lied instead of
18:54
Speaker 1: in d DJing for three months as opposed to three weeks.
18:57
Speaker 1: And I had one crate of records, like about half
19:00
Speaker 1: a crate of hip hop and half a crate of
19:02
Speaker 1: like funk and soul. Had no idea what I was doing, really,
19:06
Speaker 1: and I hustled him like into giving me this gig,
19:09
Speaker 1: and I had to take my turntables, you know, in
19:12
Speaker 1: the back of a cab. It sounds like I'm exaggerating,
19:15
Speaker 1: but it was a snowstorm in New York. I'm sure,
19:17
Speaker 1: Like I'm sure the money I paid on the cab
19:19
Speaker 1: was more than I got and there were like nineteen
19:22
Speaker 1: people that showed up. But I do remember playing average
19:26
Speaker 1: white band love Your Life, which is the sample for
19:28
Speaker 1: check the rhyme by Tribe called Quest, which was like
19:30
Speaker 1: a big song at that time. And I remember like
19:33
Speaker 1: this guy coming up to me and being like, oh,
19:35
Speaker 1: that's cool, Like how do you know about this music?
19:37
Speaker 1: And I just remember, even when nobody was dancing this
19:41
Speaker 1: clear floor, just this feeling of like it wasn't so
19:45
Speaker 1: much the control, like from this Bengali thing of being
19:49
Speaker 1: like I could control what everyways listened to, but just
19:51
Speaker 1: this idea that what I play could affect the mood
19:54
Speaker 1: of the room, or if I'd played things in the
19:56
Speaker 1: right sequence, or I could you know, and I was
19:58
Speaker 1: really bad at that point. I could barely probably put
20:01
Speaker 1: two records together like and keep the tempo going. But
20:04
Speaker 1: I just I knew that that was what I wanted
20:06
Speaker 1: to do. We'll be right back with more from Mark.
20:09
Speaker 1: After a quick break, we're back with more of Rick
20:16
Speaker 1: Rubin's conversation with Mark Ronson. Do you think of yourself
20:20
Speaker 1: primarily as a DJ or a producer or is it both.
20:24
Speaker 1: I think I always wanted to make music, and then
20:28
Speaker 1: the djaying thing took off in a way I couldn't
20:30
Speaker 1: have really foreseen or imagine. The weird thing is that
20:34
Speaker 1: they're very separate, but they inform each other so so much,
20:37
Speaker 1: and sometimes not in a great way. Like back in
20:39
Speaker 1: the days when I was supporting myself by playing five
20:42
Speaker 1: six nights a week before I really made it as
20:45
Speaker 1: a producer, and you're playing like other people's records and
20:47
Speaker 1: Neptunes records in Timberland, and like coming into the studio
20:51
Speaker 1: and trying to like find your own voice. The next
20:53
Speaker 1: day when you're just clouded with like you know, seeing
20:56
Speaker 1: everybody lose their minds to like, you know, a Neptunes track,
21:00
Speaker 1: you're it's hard to find your own voice or it's
21:02
Speaker 1: hard to really just like cut those ties of all
21:04
Speaker 1: those influences, but they they really inform each other. I mean,
21:10
Speaker 1: I would definitely probably now at this point call myself
21:13
Speaker 1: a producer, but the DJ, I still DJ, and it's
21:16
Speaker 1: still what kind of got me here in some ways.
21:19
Speaker 1: You know, my first production gig I ever got was
21:23
Speaker 1: this girl Nika Kosta, and it was because her manager,
21:25
Speaker 1: Dominic Trenier, used to come hear me DJ and I
21:29
Speaker 1: would play Rufus and Chaka Khan EPMD and then an
21:32
Speaker 1: ac DC breakbeat and this thing. And I mean, I
21:35
Speaker 1: remember when I was TJ in this club life. I
21:37
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember, but the DJ booth was
21:39
Speaker 1: right up against the stairs, cramped, it really wasn't a booth,
21:43
Speaker 1: and you could see everybody coming down and it was
21:46
Speaker 1: such an amazing So you know, I would see you
21:49
Speaker 1: walk down with like Chris Rock and then Damon Dash
21:52
Speaker 1: and Jay Z and there was Puffy at one table
21:55
Speaker 1: and Jay and the other and they were doing like
21:56
Speaker 1: I would go bad Boy Rockefeller, bad Boy Rockefeller tuned
22:00
Speaker 1: song for song and they'd be like cheering and laughing
22:02
Speaker 1: and like talking shit to each other, like it was
22:05
Speaker 1: so wild to be there. But because I would play
22:09
Speaker 1: these things that were like, you know, some of my
22:11
Speaker 1: heroes and very influential people were at they would Dominic
22:15
Speaker 1: Trinier came up and I was like, I have signed
22:17
Speaker 1: this girl, Nica Costa. I don't know what her music
22:19
Speaker 1: should sound like, but it's supposed to feel like one
22:22
Speaker 1: of these DJ sets that you do, so you know,
22:26
Speaker 1: so much of it is just hard to kind of
22:28
Speaker 1: extrapolate from me in djaying, How much would you react
22:34
Speaker 1: to the room, Like to tell me about the mindset
22:38
Speaker 1: of djaying? How does the nights start and how do
22:42
Speaker 1: you choose what's going to happen? Well, I mean back
22:45
Speaker 1: in those days when I started, and I'm kind of
22:48
Speaker 1: grateful for this, Like you would play a six hour
22:52
Speaker 1: set sometimes, like you were booked from ten to four
22:54
Speaker 1: in the morning New York clubs, so you had to
22:57
Speaker 1: have this. You had to have like two hours of
23:00
Speaker 1: like classics and soul and disco that you would start
23:03
Speaker 1: the night where then you'd have your old school hip hop,
23:05
Speaker 1: which was like at that time, old school meant you know,
23:07
Speaker 1: an I think pre like ninety two classics, slick Rick, EPMD,
23:11
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Then you would play your newest bangers
23:13
Speaker 1: of the night. Then you had to have like a
23:15
Speaker 1: solid reggae set and R and B and then take
23:17
Speaker 1: it out maybe with a little house music or some
23:19
Speaker 1: dance classics. So you would go into this room, this
23:24
Speaker 1: empty room, and you would just watch it slowly fill up.
23:27
Speaker 1: And I always loved the first hour because I could
23:29
Speaker 1: play records I really loved, and it didn't really matter,
23:32
Speaker 1: and that could be like outstanding by the Gap band
23:35
Speaker 1: or something a little more obscure, and just slowly build
23:39
Speaker 1: the night, and you would just focus on one group
23:42
Speaker 1: of people. Because before camera phones and the smoking band
23:46
Speaker 1: and all these things and vip boots, everyone stayed on
23:49
Speaker 1: the floor. That's where you stayed. You couldn't find out
23:52
Speaker 1: someone texts you to tell you there's a better party
23:54
Speaker 1: across town, or you wouldn't see it on social media.
23:57
Speaker 1: Like if it was a good night, people came to
23:58
Speaker 1: the club and stayed all night, So you would focus
24:01
Speaker 1: on like one group of maybe girls dancing, and like
24:04
Speaker 1: you would that was your barometer. Like if one of
24:07
Speaker 1: the crew dropped off to go to the are something
24:09
Speaker 1: you're like, oh shit, I'm not killing it enough, like
24:11
Speaker 1: gonna and reacting to the crowd. And then if you
24:15
Speaker 1: played something like, you know, a breakbeat or something like that,
24:19
Speaker 1: that made all like the b boys suddenly form a
24:22
Speaker 1: circle and they'd start breaking or like kind of into
24:24
Speaker 1: it for a second. But then you're like, I got
24:26
Speaker 1: to play something else, though, because now like this turning
24:28
Speaker 1: into like wild style and I need like everybody dancing.
24:31
Speaker 1: And it's like there were just so many like tells
24:35
Speaker 1: and signals and things that you would read, and most
24:38
Speaker 1: of the time you're also feeding off the crowd. And
24:41
Speaker 1: I remember that I love to play things that were
24:44
Speaker 1: a little bit unexpected. So obviously something like back in
24:47
Speaker 1: Black by ACDC feels like a breakbeat, like it feels
24:50
Speaker 1: as hip hop as anything at this point, but they
24:53
Speaker 1: weren't really playing that in the clubs. And I remember
24:55
Speaker 1: when the Benjamin's came out by Puffy and Biggie and
24:59
Speaker 1: then there was a rock remix, So I was like,
25:02
Speaker 1: if I played the Benjamins and go straight to the
25:04
Speaker 1: rock remix on the downbeat of Biggie's verse, no one's
25:06
Speaker 1: gonna stop dancing. It's Biggie and then right on the
25:09
Speaker 1: down beat when big Self dis first, I can drop
25:10
Speaker 1: ac DC back in black and everyone's dancing, like doesn't
25:14
Speaker 1: realize they're still dancing. It's something that's unfamiliar. Like I
25:17
Speaker 1: loved being able to do that. And then when Seven
25:21
Speaker 1: Nation Army came out and a couple of songs that
25:24
Speaker 1: were not hip hop but like just felt very hip hop.
25:27
Speaker 1: I could get away with playing these that got very
25:29
Speaker 1: exciting and I was like, okay, and there was you know,
25:31
Speaker 1: DJ AM on the West Coast. It was incredible. The
25:35
Speaker 1: best of everybody me stretched like trying to push the
25:38
Speaker 1: limits of what you could get away within the hip
25:41
Speaker 1: hop club essentially. How different are the club scenes around
25:46
Speaker 1: the world. In the beginning, the only place I really
25:49
Speaker 1: went was Japan, Tokyo, because Tokyo had such a like
25:53
Speaker 1: a symbiotic relationship back and forth with New York with music,
25:57
Speaker 1: street culture groups, everything, So that was kind of amazing.
26:01
Speaker 1: And that was the first time going over there and
26:04
Speaker 1: people being really excited about you because you're from somewhere else.
26:08
Speaker 1: And then the Japanese crowds are it's such a you know,
26:11
Speaker 1: they're really grateful that you've come there as well, so
26:13
Speaker 1: you know New York, I would I was doing good
26:16
Speaker 1: and killing it, but like, nobody's going to make a
26:18
Speaker 1: fuss over you in New York, especially if they're seeing
26:20
Speaker 1: you three times a week. So Japan was really great.
26:23
Speaker 1: And I remember when my first album came out, I
26:26
Speaker 1: had this song on there that was like this sort
26:28
Speaker 1: of like minor hip hop hit with ghost Face and
26:31
Speaker 1: Nate Dog called Ui. And I went over to Japan
26:35
Speaker 1: where it was like big So I've been to Japan
26:37
Speaker 1: a couple of times, but this is me going over
26:39
Speaker 1: there now the first time with like a record that's popping.
26:42
Speaker 1: And I never got on the mic before because I
26:44
Speaker 1: always thought getting on the mic was like the provenance
26:47
Speaker 1: of like flex enough, big Cat, these people with these
26:51
Speaker 1: great booming voices. I just had this like unspoken thing
26:54
Speaker 1: that like white people should not be on the mic,
26:57
Speaker 1: like whatever it was, it just and it wasn't a thing.
27:01
Speaker 1: And I was djaying and I was doing my regular
27:04
Speaker 1: set in what I thought was killing it, and I
27:06
Speaker 1: could feel the crowd there was just like unspoken ten
27:09
Speaker 1: and then this hushed like they weren't losing their minds
27:13
Speaker 1: like other times that I'd gone there and I was like,
27:15
Speaker 1: you know what, like I have to establish a connection.
27:18
Speaker 1: Like as much as I hate it, there's this wireless
27:20
Speaker 1: mic right here to my left, and I'm gonna have
27:22
Speaker 1: to pick it up and say something to engage and
27:26
Speaker 1: make some kind of bond and acknowledge that there's this
27:28
Speaker 1: crowded to see me or it's going to stay in
27:30
Speaker 1: this weird zone. And I did, and I was like
27:33
Speaker 1: hey too, like so awkwardly, I'm sure, Tokyo, like just
27:37
Speaker 1: doing whatever i'd probably learned from like watching real rap
27:40
Speaker 1: DJs get on the mic, and from that moment they
27:44
Speaker 1: just lost their ship and it was amazing. They were
27:46
Speaker 1: just waiting for me to say like thank you and
27:48
Speaker 1: be like we're in this place together. And so I
27:50
Speaker 1: sort of learned after that like like any other place
27:53
Speaker 1: that I went, I didn't need to do that. And
27:56
Speaker 1: that felt very like, very foreign to me. At first.
28:00
Speaker 1: London I loved because it was so exciting coming back
28:04
Speaker 1: there having grown up in England but like until eight
28:08
Speaker 1: but the feeling like a total New Yorker and coming back.
28:10
Speaker 1: And I think the first time was Puffy brought me
28:14
Speaker 1: and he was like doing a you know, some kind
28:16
Speaker 1: of promo tour and getting to kill it in London
28:21
Speaker 1: was like really really wonderful, and it felt like and
28:24
Speaker 1: then as I started coming back to London more and
28:26
Speaker 1: more and rediscovering my roots there and going around record
28:30
Speaker 1: stores then and that's what led to me meeting Lily
28:33
Speaker 1: Allen and Amy Winehouse and these people like that was
28:36
Speaker 1: like another chapter. But at first I was just like whoa,
28:39
Speaker 1: this is great, Like I'm back in London and this thing.
28:41
Speaker 1: And I was so fucking New York at that point.
28:45
Speaker 1: I wasn't really in my head like feeling like I
28:48
Speaker 1: was London cool. Tell me about Amy. I never got
28:51
Speaker 1: to meet her. She was. I hate to sound corny,
28:56
Speaker 1: but she really changed my life. Like I was, I
28:58
Speaker 1: was not popping in industry parlance. And she came to
29:02
Speaker 1: my studio in New York and this is actually quite funny.
29:08
Speaker 1: This is literally what happened. And I came guy meet
29:11
Speaker 1: my friend who was at EMI Publishing was like, do
29:13
Speaker 1: you know Amy Winehouse? And I was like yeah, I
29:15
Speaker 1: like that. For her first record, she had this song
29:16
Speaker 1: in My Bed produced by salam Remy that he reused
29:19
Speaker 1: and made you look beat, and I was like, yeah,
29:21
Speaker 1: she seems cool, like He's like, she's in New York
29:24
Speaker 1: for a day meeting with a couple of people, Like,
29:26
Speaker 1: do you want to meet with her? And I was
29:29
Speaker 1: like sure. So she comes to my studio and you know,
29:31
Speaker 1: downtown Mercer Street, and I met her at the door
29:36
Speaker 1: and she was like, yeah, I'm going up to see
29:38
Speaker 1: Mark Ronson and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm
29:41
Speaker 1: Mark and she's like cool, yeah, So he take me
29:45
Speaker 1: up to see him and I was like no, no, no,
29:47
Speaker 1: I'm Mark Ronson and she was like, oh, I thought
29:51
Speaker 1: you had a long bed or something. I think in
29:53
Speaker 1: her mind maybe the fact that like she had heard
29:56
Speaker 1: my name for longer, because maybe in England, like she
30:00
Speaker 1: just assumed I was like somebody who'd been around for
30:02
Speaker 1: a while. But in my head I was always like,
30:05
Speaker 1: did she think I'm Rick Rubin? Like I have no idea.
30:07
Speaker 1: So we went up in the elevator and you know,
30:11
Speaker 1: I'm sure I don't know how you do it, but
30:13
Speaker 1: everybody has their own toolbox. And I was just like,
30:15
Speaker 1: what kind of record do you want to make? Like
30:17
Speaker 1: what do you what do you like? What are you
30:19
Speaker 1: listening to? And she played me a lot of girl
30:22
Speaker 1: groups stuff in the sixties, things like the Shan Garlas
30:25
Speaker 1: and like jukebox pop music and thinks I didn't really
30:27
Speaker 1: know that well except for like probably like movies like
30:30
Speaker 1: Good Fellas, you know, like like it was so before
30:33
Speaker 1: funk and soul and disco and the ship that I played.
30:35
Speaker 1: But I loved it. I mean it was cut from
30:37
Speaker 1: the same cloth. When I was like cool and she
30:41
Speaker 1: left and I was like, I just have a feeling.
30:43
Speaker 1: First of all, we really hit it off and I
30:45
Speaker 1: loved and there was something very familiar, and I suddenly
30:48
Speaker 1: felt very English and Jewish in North London, like she
30:51
Speaker 1: reminded me of all those things, and there's a shared humor,
30:55
Speaker 1: Like she was definitely much sharper with the width than
30:57
Speaker 1: I was, but but there was an instant rapport and
31:00
Speaker 1: I just remember her leaving that evening and being like,
31:02
Speaker 1: I gotta make something that like makes this girl like
31:06
Speaker 1: want to stay in New York for another day, Like
31:08
Speaker 1: I just like I want to make music with her.
31:10
Speaker 1: And I suddenly felt I wasn't even pressure, I was
31:13
Speaker 1: just inspired. So I came up with a little like
31:16
Speaker 1: piano and instrumental, like just very bare bones tractor back
31:20
Speaker 1: to black, and I played it for the next day
31:22
Speaker 1: when she came in and she dug it and then
31:24
Speaker 1: she stayed around. But she was in a really together
31:28
Speaker 1: part of her life when I met her. When we
31:30
Speaker 1: worked together, I remember she hadn't been for a little
31:34
Speaker 1: while before that, and I even remember some of my
31:36
Speaker 1: English friends being like, oh, you're working on Amy Wine.
31:39
Speaker 1: I was like, good luck with that one. Like I
31:40
Speaker 1: heard she's been working on that record for three years already,
31:44
Speaker 1: and you know, I think there was a long space
31:46
Speaker 1: between her two albums, And I was like, I don't
31:48
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about, because this girl comes in
31:50
Speaker 1: and she's fucking playing me these incredible songs. She's sharp
31:54
Speaker 1: as attack, she's hilarious. So that's why even when she
31:57
Speaker 1: told me the story about the song, Rehab came about
32:00
Speaker 1: because we were walking around Soho one afternoon and she
32:05
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, yeah, I wasn't always like this like
32:07
Speaker 1: I was. You should have seen me in bass like
32:09
Speaker 1: I used to see me a year ago. Like my family,
32:11
Speaker 1: they're also worried about me and my manager and like
32:14
Speaker 1: my dad came over and they tried to make me
32:16
Speaker 1: go to rehab and I was like no, no, no,
32:19
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking like, of course, if this was
32:22
Speaker 1: somebody who was in durest or. It seemed like not
32:24
Speaker 1: in a good way. I wouldn't have said, like that's hilarious,
32:26
Speaker 1: let's gonna make a somment because I'm looking at somebody
32:28
Speaker 1: who's like so together and this is such a closed
32:32
Speaker 1: chapter of their life, like you know what, Like I
32:34
Speaker 1: hate to do shit that's like gimmicky, but that is
32:37
Speaker 1: like very hooky. Just the way you said that, so
32:39
Speaker 1: like she was just she would like go back to
32:42
Speaker 1: the Soho Grand Hotel where she was staying every night.
32:45
Speaker 1: It was five blocks from my studio and like get
32:47
Speaker 1: on the treadmill for like an hour, like and then
32:50
Speaker 1: go to bed like we were. It was a lot
32:52
Speaker 1: of fun. I mean, we are rarely only in the
32:54
Speaker 1: studio six days probably that whole record, So I wish
32:58
Speaker 1: it was longer because there would be more memories. But
32:59
Speaker 1: then we you know, we were still friends and we
33:01
Speaker 1: hung after that. Would you describe that meeting an artist,
33:05
Speaker 1: getting the vibe what they're into, they go away, You
33:08
Speaker 1: make some thing play for them. Is that would you
33:11
Speaker 1: say typical of your process as a producer. Well, the
33:17
Speaker 1: way that I like kind of came up was like
33:19
Speaker 1: you sort of had like a beat tape, so you'd
33:22
Speaker 1: go to Anna offices and you would play beats and
33:24
Speaker 1: instrumentals like and that's kind of like what people. That's
33:28
Speaker 1: what I the world that I knew. So when when
33:30
Speaker 1: I met Amy and she told me what she liked,
33:32
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I don't have anything pre made
33:34
Speaker 1: that you will like. But I mean it's always different
33:38
Speaker 1: because some people come and they just have their songs already.
33:42
Speaker 1: Some people have a couple of songs, but then the jams.
33:46
Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't write anything, like I just there to
33:49
Speaker 1: arrange and feed. You know, our friend Richard Russell and
33:52
Speaker 1: your friends with Richard, like he says in his book,
33:56
Speaker 1: he's like to him being a good producers, Like it's
34:00
Speaker 1: serious of making the right decisions. Like it's so fucking
34:04
Speaker 1: mata and so like in the atmosphere of like what
34:08
Speaker 1: you can do on any given day that might make
34:11
Speaker 1: something good or help steer something to be better, or
34:14
Speaker 1: or just know to get out of the way. It's
34:17
Speaker 1: it's very it's very different, but it just depends I
34:20
Speaker 1: guess it's like depends on the artist. Yeah, that's why
34:23
Speaker 1: that's why I'm asking, because I you know, we technically
34:25
Speaker 1: do the same job, but I have no idea what
34:28
Speaker 1: that means and how you do it you do versus
34:30
Speaker 1: what I do it. You know what I say, it's
34:32
Speaker 1: impossible to know. It's such a it's such a particular
34:35
Speaker 1: thing that yeah, and it's you know, it's such a
34:38
Speaker 1: particular like you know, when I came up like you,
34:42
Speaker 1: Quincy q Tip, George Martin, Nigel Godrich, like I because
34:48
Speaker 1: I loved all these different things. I had like a
34:50
Speaker 1: wide array of people that I would like study, and
34:54
Speaker 1: I you know, I read things like well Farrell says
34:57
Speaker 1: like they don't say in this youdo past nine pm
34:59
Speaker 1: because like nothing good ever happened, so like maybe I
35:01
Speaker 1: was sort some that And then like you were so
35:04
Speaker 1: song focused. I remember whenever I read something about you,
35:06
Speaker 1: you'd be like maybe the songs aren't there yet, or
35:08
Speaker 1: just like it was so much about the songs. And
35:11
Speaker 1: I realize, like I've also got into trouble being into
35:15
Speaker 1: getting into projects because I have like, well it doesn't
35:18
Speaker 1: matter they have like great songs yet, but like they'll
35:21
Speaker 1: com or like we could bring them out and that
35:23
Speaker 1: isn't a given either. So I think that it's just
35:26
Speaker 1: just like magic toolbox and everybody has their different things.
35:30
Speaker 1: Would you say when you start on a project with
35:33
Speaker 1: an artist, you'll have an idea of where it's going
35:35
Speaker 1: to go or is it pretty much open to see
35:37
Speaker 1: what's going to happen in the moment and that's where
35:40
Speaker 1: it goes from there. I think that's what it is.
35:42
Speaker 1: I think it's just open to that first meeting. I
35:45
Speaker 1: mean I think that I have you know, sometimes when
35:48
Speaker 1: I'm working with like a band like that I've loved
35:51
Speaker 1: and grown up with, whether it's ghost Face or Duran Duran, Like,
35:54
Speaker 1: of course you have an idea, a little bit of
35:56
Speaker 1: an idea because you're like you're already a fan, so
35:59
Speaker 1: you have the sixth sense of like what do fans
36:02
Speaker 1: want to hear this person do? And then you just
36:05
Speaker 1: go like, what's this person's superpower? And a lot of
36:07
Speaker 1: the great artists have more than one superpower, Like how
36:10
Speaker 1: do I just like amplify that to you know, next level?
36:14
Speaker 1: But I think it's always you know, when we were
36:15
Speaker 1: working at your place with Gaga Chiangola, I remember like
36:19
Speaker 1: I had no idea what we're going to do, and
36:21
Speaker 1: I was like, I think she maybe thought even we're
36:23
Speaker 1: gonna do something a little more jazzy because everybody thinks
36:25
Speaker 1: because I like love horns, like I know a lot
36:27
Speaker 1: about jazz, I know nothing about jazz. And she just
36:31
Speaker 1: came in in like denim shorts and cowboy boots and
36:34
Speaker 1: like a hack and obviously like your studio is like
36:36
Speaker 1: one of the most idyllic places of all times, so
36:38
Speaker 1: you do feel really like in this wonderful zone. And
36:42
Speaker 1: it just felt like, Okay, well let's make something that's
36:45
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, organic or strip back or
36:48
Speaker 1: like I you know, whatever the reason. So I think that, yeah,
36:52
Speaker 1: I think I'm just always just like open to Like
36:55
Speaker 1: what's the Quincy says to is like you always need
36:57
Speaker 1: to leave room. You need to leave space to like
37:00
Speaker 1: God in the room or whatever you believe that thing is,
37:03
Speaker 1: like just have to be ready to go, and like
37:06
Speaker 1: any kind of instinct, do you still make tracks without
37:10
Speaker 1: having a particular artist in mind? You know, it's funny.
37:14
Speaker 1: I just kind of went back to that there's something
37:17
Speaker 1: I think over Lockdown I learned Ableton. I was like,
37:20
Speaker 1: I'm finally going to teach myself Ableton because like every
37:23
Speaker 1: I've been telling myself for eight years, every time I
37:24
Speaker 1: get on a flight to Japan. I'm like, this will
37:26
Speaker 1: be the time I never never done it. And it's
37:28
Speaker 1: getting to the point where like Diplo and people that
37:30
Speaker 1: I work with, or like Kevin from TAM and Poula
37:33
Speaker 1: and Ableton, they're like they're like, really, you're going to
37:36
Speaker 1: make me fucking bounce these stems again? So you can
37:38
Speaker 1: put this in pro tools, like can you just learn Ableton?
37:41
Speaker 1: So that got me back into a little bit into
37:43
Speaker 1: beat mode, and then I realized that what I was
37:46
Speaker 1: trying to do on Ableton was just recreate what I
37:49
Speaker 1: used to do on my MPC. So I'm like, Ma'm
37:52
Speaker 1: fuck this, Like I'm not going to be lazy. Let
37:54
Speaker 1: me just break the NBC out and start doing this thing,
37:57
Speaker 1: because I was trying to recreate feel and sound and
38:00
Speaker 1: it just wasn't doing it. So I got back into
38:03
Speaker 1: like NBC like making beats, and just like I've been
38:07
Speaker 1: in some sessions recently since shits kind of open back
38:10
Speaker 1: up again and I love getting there before the artists
38:13
Speaker 1: like four hours and just making like six instrumentals just
38:17
Speaker 1: so it's sort of like ready to go and like
38:18
Speaker 1: chopping drum breaks just so you know there's not that
38:22
Speaker 1: kind of dead moment where they're standing over you, where
38:24
Speaker 1: you're like chopping a snare drum. Like. I like the
38:26
Speaker 1: idea of just having a few things to get someone
38:28
Speaker 1: excited and inspired when they walk in the room. Are
38:32
Speaker 1: you ever surprised by how someone approaches vocally a tract
38:37
Speaker 1: that you've lived with for a little bit as an
38:39
Speaker 1: instrumental Yeah, definitely. I mean, I love that's the best
38:44
Speaker 1: thing where you're just so surprised and you're like, oh
38:46
Speaker 1: my god. I never would have thought of that. I mean,
38:47
Speaker 1: especially the probably more with Maladies and wrap Stuf because
38:52
Speaker 1: there's probably more room like experiment. But I also remember,
38:56
Speaker 1: like I worked on them like a third record. I
38:59
Speaker 1: had this song with Q Tip called Bang Bang Bang,
39:01
Speaker 1: and I remember him coming in because I was playing
39:04
Speaker 1: him a bunch of other beats and by accident, I
39:08
Speaker 1: started this one that was like already a song for
39:10
Speaker 1: somebody else. He goes, he wasn't that into the ship
39:12
Speaker 1: I was playing. It's like, what's that one? I was like,
39:14
Speaker 1: Oh that was this other thing is roll that back
39:16
Speaker 1: and watching like Q Tip like in his process, which
39:20
Speaker 1: was just like get out the room, I'm going to
39:22
Speaker 1: run pro tools I'm going to record this ship, puts
39:24
Speaker 1: his headphones on and just records first doing cadences Donna, Donna,
39:31
Speaker 1: and then starts to fill in the words and then
39:33
Speaker 1: like this whole ship is like coming to life and
39:36
Speaker 1: obviously has such a magic voice in this familiar thing
39:38
Speaker 1: that's like you know, I grew up with. But occasionally
39:43
Speaker 1: someone will just send you something back down and that's
39:44
Speaker 1: great too. But when you get to see this little
39:46
Speaker 1: people's processes and stuff, it's like, oh shit, that's how
39:50
Speaker 1: they do that. Yeah, it's so cool. It is? It
39:53
Speaker 1: very different from artist artists? Would you say? I feel
39:55
Speaker 1: like it's pretty like if someone likes something, when you
40:01
Speaker 1: play something and it gets them in the first like
40:03
Speaker 1: five or six seconds, which is really the only time.
40:06
Speaker 1: If you don't get them in the first five or
40:07
Speaker 1: six seconds, it is probably not gonna happen. It's usually
40:09
Speaker 1: like the thing like oh shit, let me get some headphones,
40:12
Speaker 1: and then it's like plug. They might run the track
40:13
Speaker 1: back and it's like just freestyling, like the first maladies
40:17
Speaker 1: and the things that come out, Like that's the most
40:20
Speaker 1: common process that I've seen. But you know, then there's
40:23
Speaker 1: somebody like Bruno who's just like ultimate like songcraft, and
40:27
Speaker 1: just like nothing goes down until like the best thing
40:30
Speaker 1: is written in his brain. You know, do you remember
40:33
Speaker 1: the very first time you were ever in a recording studio.
40:36
Speaker 1: I think I do. I think it was probably with
40:38
Speaker 1: my stepdad. I remember being in one of those studios
40:41
Speaker 1: in Midtown in New York that's not there anymore, like
40:44
Speaker 1: right Track or something, and I remember loving it. I remember,
40:48
Speaker 1: I mean, other than my stepdad's home studio, which had
40:51
Speaker 1: like a little a track and some stuff, and that
40:53
Speaker 1: feeling very homely. There was something about like studios are
40:58
Speaker 1: just so warm, and it's wood everywhere, and if it's
41:00
Speaker 1: not wood, it's like a christianie paneling and there's lights
41:03
Speaker 1: and they're all cool and it looks like some retro
41:06
Speaker 1: futuristic spaceship. And I just remember, like, you know, the
41:11
Speaker 1: black leather couch that's like in every kind of like
41:14
Speaker 1: stock like New York studio that time, like that just
41:17
Speaker 1: felt so good to me. That was like very like
41:21
Speaker 1: warm and fuzzy. We're gonna take a quick break and
41:24
Speaker 1: then we'll be back with more from Rick Ruben and
41:26
Speaker 1: Mark Ronson. We're back with the rest of Rick Rubin's
41:32
Speaker 1: conversation with Mark ronson do you shouzam? I do I
41:37
Speaker 1: SHOs am quite a lot. Actually, I'm sure I shozam
41:39
Speaker 1: something today. It's this greatest invention ever. It's really it
41:43
Speaker 1: really is great. You know. When I first got it,
41:46
Speaker 1: it was always like if I was in a record
41:47
Speaker 1: store like HMV, some big record shop in England, like
41:51
Speaker 1: if a song was so bad, I had to know
41:53
Speaker 1: what it was. So like in the beginning, my thing
41:56
Speaker 1: was really like like I would have been horrified if
41:59
Speaker 1: anybody had ever looked through my think I'd be like, wait,
42:01
Speaker 1: you like that. I'm not going to call anyone out.
42:03
Speaker 1: But like the other day, I was in a taxi
42:07
Speaker 1: cab in England and I never and there's a song
42:10
Speaker 1: on it. It's got like this killing rhythm section, but
42:12
Speaker 1: it's like sounds like a psychedelic sixties song, like one
42:14
Speaker 1: of those songs that's on Nuggets. And it's right into
42:17
Speaker 1: the Sun by lou Reid. Like I had no idea
42:19
Speaker 1: lou Reid had made like a whole record with like
42:23
Speaker 1: this killer rhythm section, Like I just I love it.
42:26
Speaker 1: I just shazam. It's just so great changed our lives. Yeah,
42:32
Speaker 1: how often do you hear something that comes out new
42:36
Speaker 1: that you love like pretty often. I mean, I feel
42:39
Speaker 1: a little bit out of touch because that the way
42:41
Speaker 1: that I would stay in touch with new music before
42:44
Speaker 1: was from djaying, and I would have to because I'd
42:46
Speaker 1: want to like play new shit in my set and
42:48
Speaker 1: not look like I was kind of falling behind the times.
42:51
Speaker 1: But I do think there's been a few see changes
42:54
Speaker 1: in music that have just really gotten like to things
42:58
Speaker 1: that I don't understand as much anymore. Like I realized
43:02
Speaker 1: like the vitality and why things in new hip hop
43:06
Speaker 1: and new pop music are exciting. But I might not
43:08
Speaker 1: connect with him in this same way. And I think
43:10
Speaker 1: I used to connect with them because you'd go see
43:12
Speaker 1: it in the club and if you didn't quite get
43:13
Speaker 1: a record, then when you saw everybody lose their fucking
43:15
Speaker 1: shit to check West, you're like, oh fuck, this record
43:18
Speaker 1: is a monster. Like so I trying to think of
43:21
Speaker 1: the last There's still things that come out all the
43:25
Speaker 1: time that I love, and I always know like that
43:29
Speaker 1: feeling if there's like a pang of jealousy the second
43:32
Speaker 1: like the first second I hear it, like oh man,
43:34
Speaker 1: this is so good. I wish I did that or
43:36
Speaker 1: even like I don't know how to do that, but
43:38
Speaker 1: this thing that I still love that feeling. I just
43:42
Speaker 1: maybe I'm just a little bit more out of touch recently.
43:46
Speaker 1: When you would hear something new and decide to put
43:48
Speaker 1: it into a set, how often were your instincts about
43:52
Speaker 1: how the reaction would be if it was something less known,
43:56
Speaker 1: something maybe even unknown. Yeah, I think if you were good,
44:00
Speaker 1: it was like you knew where to sandwich it to
44:02
Speaker 1: just make sure it was like a trojan horse, you know,
44:04
Speaker 1: if I can dress it up and fit it between
44:06
Speaker 1: these two records and just and have something ready. I
44:10
Speaker 1: think I was probably so in sync with my crowds
44:13
Speaker 1: and the crowds that I was playing for, even though
44:15
Speaker 1: they would change every night, that I had a good
44:17
Speaker 1: feeling of like what would work. And you know, every
44:20
Speaker 1: now and then it just doesn't work. But most of
44:23
Speaker 1: the time it was it was great. And how often
44:26
Speaker 1: would you play something from a different genre than was
44:29
Speaker 1: expected beyond back in black? I mean I always hated
44:33
Speaker 1: the term mash up because DJs have been doing blends
44:35
Speaker 1: forever and it was just like it was like a
44:37
Speaker 1: very reductive and slightly gimmicky thing. But I mean it
44:40
Speaker 1: was also kind of exciting when it first happened, and
44:43
Speaker 1: I would take records that I love, like Blur a
44:47
Speaker 1: song too, and I was like, I can't just throw
44:49
Speaker 1: on Blur a song too. But if I throw a
44:51
Speaker 1: Biggie Nasty Boy over the top of it the a cappella,
44:55
Speaker 1: then everyone's kind of dancing and then we can see
44:57
Speaker 1: where we go from there, and then you know, every
45:00
Speaker 1: now and then, you know, some of the clubs that
45:02
Speaker 1: I was playing in there were like these you know,
45:04
Speaker 1: pretty like high end, powerful like drug dealers that were
45:08
Speaker 1: coming in to like spend two grand and have a
45:11
Speaker 1: good time and pop champagne and look like you know,
45:15
Speaker 1: ballers and so like. Occasionally I remember playing like one
45:19
Speaker 1: of those rock records in the middle of the night
45:20
Speaker 1: and the guy just like leaning over the booth because
45:22
Speaker 1: a club Cheetah, the booth was behind the there was
45:26
Speaker 1: a booth right next to the GD with this guy
45:28
Speaker 1: just leaning over and just being like, what the fuck
45:31
Speaker 1: are you playing White Boy, like very very seriously to me.
45:33
Speaker 1: So like, I think that most of the times it
45:37
Speaker 1: got over, And I think that New York crowds are
45:39
Speaker 1: quite open, like regardless of genre. But the reason that
45:43
Speaker 1: I sort of made my record version, which was like
45:47
Speaker 1: these covers of songs by the Smiths and Radiohead and
45:50
Speaker 1: the Jam and like the Zootones and these rock bands,
45:54
Speaker 1: was because I wanted to play those songs and I
45:57
Speaker 1: was getting a little burnt. I've been playing hip hop,
46:00
Speaker 1: R and B and dance hall for about ten years
46:02
Speaker 1: in clubs, and I was just like I couldn't quite
46:04
Speaker 1: play just by Radiohead and a club, and I couldn't
46:07
Speaker 1: play stop me if you think that you heard this
46:08
Speaker 1: one before for by the Smiths, like that was just
46:11
Speaker 1: going a little too far. There were cool rock and
46:13
Speaker 1: roll scenes like Justine Dee and the MisShapes happening in
46:16
Speaker 1: New York just about that time. That wasn't me. And
46:20
Speaker 1: so I was like, you know what, I'm going to
46:21
Speaker 1: make covers of these songs that I love and redo
46:24
Speaker 1: them in arrangements that I can kind of like get
46:26
Speaker 1: over with my crowd. And it was really just like
46:28
Speaker 1: I just made them to just play like I didn't
46:32
Speaker 1: ever think that they would come out. I didn't really.
46:34
Speaker 1: There wasn't even enough, and I thought in my head,
46:36
Speaker 1: I was just like, this is for my crowds, and
46:38
Speaker 1: this is something I can work on this Will Be Fun,
46:40
Speaker 1: and I did radiohead cover that I did started to
46:43
Speaker 1: get a lot of play by Zane Low and Giles
46:45
Speaker 1: Peterson on Radio one in England, and that's what got
46:49
Speaker 1: me signed to Columbia because I'd been dropped by Electra
46:52
Speaker 1: after my first record came out and sold like eighty copies.
46:55
Speaker 1: And suddenly I was sitting on this album of covers
46:58
Speaker 1: and this one that's ready on the radio. And so
47:01
Speaker 1: that kind of weird backfiring of the DJ set then
47:05
Speaker 1: inspired this other creative outlet, which was you know, I
47:09
Speaker 1: guess I never thought about it in those terms if
47:12
Speaker 1: it's interesting. So your career as an artist really was
47:16
Speaker 1: an offshoot of the djaying for real, Like it really was. Yeah,
47:22
Speaker 1: Like I was starting to produce records and I did
47:24
Speaker 1: the sneaker costs to record, but I never thought I
47:27
Speaker 1: never had any designs. There was no ego thing like
47:29
Speaker 1: I want to be the artist, I want to be
47:31
Speaker 1: in front. But there was this era of like although
47:34
Speaker 1: I wasn't as like I didn't have the same pedigree
47:37
Speaker 1: as like super hip hop like on the radio, like
47:40
Speaker 1: the level of DJ Clue or flex or stuff. This
47:43
Speaker 1: was this era that everybody was getting a deal to
47:45
Speaker 1: make a mixtape album, and Sylvie Aaron and Josh Deutsch
47:51
Speaker 1: like I was the guy DJing, like the kind of
47:53
Speaker 1: clubs that were like not as packed but still had
47:57
Speaker 1: this cool thing. It was its own downtown scene. And
48:01
Speaker 1: so I got this deal and I was like, cool,
48:05
Speaker 1: I'll make the DJ mixtape but with original music on it.
48:08
Speaker 1: But that except for that minor like ghost Face and
48:12
Speaker 1: a Dog record, really did nothing. And then the weird
48:17
Speaker 1: backwards way of going about having this radiohead and these
48:21
Speaker 1: covers records that led to me becoming a sort of
48:25
Speaker 1: accidental artist, like especially in the UK where that album,
48:28
Speaker 1: you know, was especially popular. It was very strange. But
48:32
Speaker 1: I've always thought about it like I don't really care
48:34
Speaker 1: if my name is in the artist slot the producer slot,
48:39
Speaker 1: Like I don't feel any different or any more proud
48:41
Speaker 1: or less proud of the record. It's just I think
48:43
Speaker 1: on my artist records, I get to do things that
48:46
Speaker 1: don't really have a place on anybody's record. Like I
48:49
Speaker 1: was working with Amy on Back to Black while I
48:52
Speaker 1: was making version, and I just said, hey, I'm making
48:55
Speaker 1: this covers record, is there a song that you like?
48:57
Speaker 1: And she played me the song Valerie by the Zootones,
48:59
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, that's cool, let's do that.
49:01
Speaker 1: Like I think that she wouldn't have made a cover
49:04
Speaker 1: of Valerie for her own record. It wouldn't have cross
49:06
Speaker 1: her mind. But there's this fun thing that happens when
49:09
Speaker 1: people a little more free, they're a little less precious even,
49:12
Speaker 1: you know, like it's on your record, fuck it, Yeah,
49:14
Speaker 1: let's do something for fun. Sure, So that's kind of
49:17
Speaker 1: the only thing that that serves. Would you say your
49:21
Speaker 1: relationship to music has changed over the course of your life. Yes,
49:25
Speaker 1: If somebody like was like, okay, would you consider yourself
49:28
Speaker 1: more of a fan of music or somebody who actually
49:31
Speaker 1: creates music, I really wouldn't know how to answer that question.
49:34
Speaker 1: I still don't. I still get as excited. And if
49:37
Speaker 1: I had to, it's a really silly question because there's
49:40
Speaker 1: no war what that would happen. But if I had
49:42
Speaker 1: to choose between one or the other, being a fan
49:43
Speaker 1: and a listener or a creator, it would be very
49:46
Speaker 1: hard to imagine. I think I'm more patient, certainly in
49:51
Speaker 1: the studio as well, like I have less like ego
49:54
Speaker 1: running the show, and I love occasionally being wrong, like
49:59
Speaker 1: even if your pride hurts for like a second. When
50:02
Speaker 1: somebody has a great idea and they kind of win
50:04
Speaker 1: the argument, you're like, oh, yeah, this song is now
50:06
Speaker 1: better for that theyationship to music like though it's still
50:11
Speaker 1: I went through a period over lockdown and I didn't
50:14
Speaker 1: really have a studio to go to and I was
50:16
Speaker 1: making stuff in Ableton, and although I was excited about
50:19
Speaker 1: learning that thing, it's not quite I am a visceral person.
50:22
Speaker 1: I like having like my like keyboard and the drum
50:25
Speaker 1: machine and this thing, and my music was just suffering
50:28
Speaker 1: because of it, and it was getting kind of shitty.
50:30
Speaker 1: And I was suddenly starting to think, like, Okay, I'm
50:33
Speaker 1: forty five, like I'm already at the tell end of
50:35
Speaker 1: fringe of like what would be like an acceptable age
50:38
Speaker 1: for someone trying to make music for like young people
50:41
Speaker 1: or pop music or whatever you want to call it.
50:44
Speaker 1: I mean, I know there's yourself, is Quincy, there's people
50:47
Speaker 1: that you know definitely who have broken the mold there.
50:51
Speaker 1: But I was just starting to like really doubt my confidence,
50:55
Speaker 1: and I was thinking like maybe I'm phasing out of music,
50:58
Speaker 1: Like maybe that's it. Maybe I'm going to do some
51:00
Speaker 1: more interesting like educational stuff with music and maybe I'll
51:04
Speaker 1: whatever it is this Apple series I was working on
51:07
Speaker 1: with our friend Morgan Neville, like just the documentary. Maybe
51:10
Speaker 1: that's my thing now. And I think some of it
51:12
Speaker 1: was like a little bit of cowardice because I was like, Okay, well,
51:14
Speaker 1: if I don't try, I don't put myself up there
51:17
Speaker 1: on my head above the parapet, nobody can really fuck
51:20
Speaker 1: with me and tell me that I fell off. And
51:24
Speaker 1: then I got back in a studio for the first
51:26
Speaker 1: time like two months ago, and I just like had
51:30
Speaker 1: my shit around me and I said everyone, I was like,
51:32
Speaker 1: oh my god, I love this. Like this is whether
51:35
Speaker 1: I make successful records or not, that's going to be
51:38
Speaker 1: determined by somebody else, But this is my favorite shit
51:41
Speaker 1: to do. How could I kid myself like this is
51:43
Speaker 1: still my thing where I feel alive and like I
51:46
Speaker 1: can look up and oh shit, four hours has just
51:48
Speaker 1: gone by, you know. So I'm very grateful. I mean,
51:51
Speaker 1: my music has been like my fucking compassed noise star,
51:56
Speaker 1: my anchor through life. Like it's only now that probably
51:59
Speaker 1: through therapy work, whatever you want to call it, that
52:02
Speaker 1: I've made time for other things in my life. And
52:04
Speaker 1: I understand that they're important, but music is still this
52:09
Speaker 1: It's my best friend. Yeah amazing. We are blessed to
52:13
Speaker 1: be able to spend our lives with music. It's like
52:16
Speaker 1: that's what we do. It's yeah, so lucky that that's
52:19
Speaker 1: our We do it for fun and we do it
52:21
Speaker 1: for work and it's all the same, you know. Yeah amazing.
52:25
Speaker 1: Tell me about the project with Morgan. So when Apple
52:30
Speaker 1: started their TV division, Kim Rosenfeld, who was running like
52:34
Speaker 1: the nonfiction stuff, came to me and he had seen
52:38
Speaker 1: a ted talk that I had done about sampling and
52:40
Speaker 1: he liked it, and he was like, can we do
52:42
Speaker 1: something that's like that, but like expanded about music because
52:46
Speaker 1: it's sort of it teaches people who don't know anything
52:50
Speaker 1: about sampling and probably didn't care or think that they
52:52
Speaker 1: cared about it, like oh that's why that song I
52:55
Speaker 1: love is like that, and also do it properly. Hopefully
52:58
Speaker 1: it comes off in a way that like, people who
53:01
Speaker 1: do know the shit are also interested in you're not
53:03
Speaker 1: talking down anybody. So he put me with Morgan Neville,
53:08
Speaker 1: which was obviously on my first time at the rodeo
53:11
Speaker 1: being paired with this guy who's made some of my
53:14
Speaker 1: fucking favorite documentaries and incredible and knows so much about
53:17
Speaker 1: music as well. We just dreamed up this show and
53:20
Speaker 1: we figured, you know, there were a hundred ways we
53:23
Speaker 1: could have done it, but what we decided, because it
53:25
Speaker 1: was going to be six episodes, was to break it
53:27
Speaker 1: up into different technologies that have changed how you know,
53:31
Speaker 1: modern pop music and hip hop really evolved. So we
53:35
Speaker 1: broke it up into reverb, distortion, synthesizers, drum machine sampling,
53:40
Speaker 1: an auto tune. The ongoing theme of the show of
53:44
Speaker 1: all these technologies, it is when they first came out,
53:47
Speaker 1: people really didn't like them, or they were afraid of it,
53:49
Speaker 1: or somebody thought that this was going to ruin music.
53:52
Speaker 1: And then somebody uses it kind of in the wrong way,
53:55
Speaker 1: like Prince de tuning the snare on the lyndromes, so
53:58
Speaker 1: instead of sounding like a real lyndrum, it sounded like like,
54:02
Speaker 1: like what the fuck is that? Like all these things
54:04
Speaker 1: that were like not supposed to be done, then suddenly
54:08
Speaker 1: someone geniusly does it in the right way, and then
54:11
Speaker 1: it's wonderful, and then it gets kind of accepted and
54:14
Speaker 1: co opted by everybody, and then things that really came
54:18
Speaker 1: about that we're really lovely. Like I guess it ends
54:21
Speaker 1: up like it's really fun when it's about the technology,
54:23
Speaker 1: but then it really is like nice and gets very
54:26
Speaker 1: humane when it starts to be about the story as
54:29
Speaker 1: soon as beautiful creative people start talking or like, of
54:32
Speaker 1: course you're gonna go somewhere wonderful. That sounds great. I
54:36
Speaker 1: look forward to watching that. Thank you well, thank you
54:39
Speaker 1: for doing this. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's
54:42
Speaker 1: an honor and it's nicest conversation. Thanks to Mark Ronson
54:48
Speaker 1: for walking us through his journey from becoming a DJ
54:51
Speaker 1: to pop music producer. To hear his latest album, Late
54:55
Speaker 1: Night Feelings and our favorite Mark Ronson produced tracks, head
54:58
Speaker 1: to Broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe
55:02
Speaker 1: chart YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast.
55:06
Speaker 1: We can find all of our new episodes. You can
55:08
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Records produced
55:12
Speaker 1: help from Lea Rhodes, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler,
55:16
Speaker 1: and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from mc chafee. Our
55:20
Speaker 1: executive producer is Amia Lavell. Broken Record is a production
55:24
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries and if you like the show, please
55:26
Speaker 1: remember to share, rate and review us on your podcast,
55:29
Speaker 1: act Our Theme Musics, Bay Canny beats on jer Richmond