Latest / Ministry Minded / Keeping Your Bible Open and Unfurling the Deep Things of God with Philip Nation

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Keeping Your Bible Open and Unfurling the Deep Things of God with Philip Nation · Ministry Minded

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:14
  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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  in our messy ministries.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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  I serve as the senior pastor here at Stonyton Baptist Church
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  right here in Paximus,
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  SPEAKER_00: Pennsylvania.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be sharing this particular episode with you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I had the joy and the privilege of talking with Philip Nation today.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Phil, if you don't know, is one who is very active on social media.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's a pastor or speaker.
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  He works in the Bible publishing field and it's been a joy to
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  get connected with him,
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  SPEAKER_00: to stay connected with him.
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  SPEAKER_00: He has a certain knack for encouraging pastors and preachers.
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  And so it was such a thrill just to talk to him about all of
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  those things.
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  SPEAKER_00: What makes it so necessary for pastors to take courage?
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  SPEAKER_00: What makes it so necessary for Bibles,
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  SPEAKER_00: such as the New King James Bible or the Open Bible,
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  SPEAKER_00: as Phil talks about?
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  What makes it so necessary for them to be pushed and promoted
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  by these publishing companies,
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  especially as they're seeking to get literacy with the Word
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  risen within churches?
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the main things that I've often...
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  expressed or shared or talked about is that many times those
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  who are in the pews
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  SPEAKER_00: don't often know what their Bibles say.
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  And part of the way that we can combat that is making the Bible
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  easier to read,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just easier to read,
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  but actually also easier to understand in terms of what is the
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  story this is trying
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  SPEAKER_00: to convey.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not just the literal story of, we could say, you
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  SPEAKER_00: But how is that story connected to the bigger story?
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  SPEAKER_00: So some of those things is what we talk about.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was such a delight to talk with Phil.
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess I should say Dr. Phil.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it was such a delight to have him on,
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  SPEAKER_00: talk with him about pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: preaching,
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  SPEAKER_00: what makes a good Bible translation,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also how that connects with not only the mission of the church,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also the mandate of the church in our present moment.
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  bringing the Word of God to the hearts and to the minds of
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  those with whom we are
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  SPEAKER_00: called to shepherd.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I want you to sit back and relax, enjoy this episode.
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  It was a delight to talk to Phil,
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  and I hope that you will find it a delight as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hope you're blessed by this.
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  Enjoy as Philip Nation and I talk about Bible translation,
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  preaching,
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  and much,
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  much more.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for tuning in to the Ministry Minded Podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to have on the show today, Phillip Nation.
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  He is,
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  I would say,
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  like a shepherd to pastors,
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  encouraging them in so many different ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I know I've been really encouraged just by your ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: just through social media,
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  SPEAKER_00: Phillip.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's really good to get acquainted with you on a deeper level,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also get connected with you.
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  SPEAKER_00: So just introduce yourself as you can,
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  kind of where you are and kind of what keeps you busy in these
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  recent days.
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  SPEAKER_01: Bradley, thanks for having me on.
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  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the fact that I've been an encouragement to you.
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  I love encouraging fellow ministers and pastors as I have
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  worked in the trenches of
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  ministry throughout my life in the current season of life for
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  the last more than
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  SPEAKER_01: five years.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've served as a vice president at HarperCollins Christian Publishing,
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  SPEAKER_01: specifically as the publisher of Thomas Nelson Bibles.
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  SPEAKER_01: And as I have said to other people,
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  it's a pretty great gig when you can wake up every day and your
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  job is to get more
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  SPEAKER_01: Bibles into the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: If anybody ever offers you that job, take it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's fantastic.
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  But during my lifetime,
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  during my adult lifetime,
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  I have done a combination of
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  SPEAKER_01: of vocational ministry as a pastor and church planter,
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  along with working in Christian publishing for now two
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  different companies.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I've also served as a professor for a few different universities.
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  And I'm in a season now where I do a lot of guest preaching and
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  teaching at conferences.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I have a pretty great life.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Lord has been immeasurably kind.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I've followed you,
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  and so I love hearing about all the times where you get to go
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  to different places
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  SPEAKER_00: and preach the gospel again.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been so encouraged by your constant sort of,
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  SPEAKER_00: I will say,
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  SPEAKER_00: very gracious pushing of the Bible onto folks,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I think is kind of the best way to approach it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you do have to sometimes it does take a push.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's for all of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: even those of us that preach on a regular basis,
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  we can we can find cultural hobby horses that we want to ride
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  on and our little
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  SPEAKER_01: soapboxes that we want to get up and stamp our feet on.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all of us need that press back to,
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  is this a cultural issue that you're just speaking directly out
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  of your own
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  SPEAKER_01: cultural mores?
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  Or are you keeping yourself anchored in the scripture and
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  allowing it to speak into
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  SPEAKER_01: your own position on these things?
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  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I have people in my life that do that for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I try to be gracious in helping others.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I commend you.
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  SPEAKER_00: You do a good job at it,
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  and I know there's a lot of people probably sending you
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  messages all the time with this,
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  SPEAKER_00: that,
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  SPEAKER_00: and the other issue.
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  But what I wanted to ask you right off the top is—we were
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  talking beforehand,
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  SPEAKER_00: but when—because you've been in pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then you're kind of—well,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're not out of it,
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  SPEAKER_00: but you're sort of on the outskirts of it,
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  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
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  SPEAKER_00: in some regards—
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  When did you kind of feel that calling of sort of a shift or a
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  time of transition from,
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  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
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  vocational ministry in a church to kind of being able to be a
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  go-between in some
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  regards in between a lot of different ministries and a lot of
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  different churches
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  and sort of be a shepherd to pastors who are doing their own
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  sort of shepherding?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question because my calling to ministry happened
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  SPEAKER_01: When I was 15 years old,
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  SPEAKER_01: I preached my first sermon when I was 16,
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  which is just crazy that my home church let a 16 year old loose
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  in the pulpit.
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  SPEAKER_01: But even from that early age,
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  SPEAKER_01: my calling always felt like more of Philip,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're going to be a communicator of God's word.
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  SPEAKER_01: rather than a very specific,
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  you're going to be a local church pastor and that's it for the
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  rest of your life.
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  I always knew and had this sense kind of lingering in my heart
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  that God was going
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  SPEAKER_01: to have me kind of on this very circuitous kind of route of ministry.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what it's turned into.
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  And so when I was in my late 30s after we had planted a church
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  and I was just about
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  SPEAKER_01: done with my doctorate,
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  SPEAKER_01: I had started helping a couple of friends do some writing projects,
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  and that's when things began to kind of blossom in my mind and
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  in my heart of a
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  ministry like this where I would be able to encourage the
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  church at large,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then specifically that I can encourage pastors.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so now in this last season of my life,
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  SPEAKER_01: let's say since my age 39 and 40,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm now in my mid-50s.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's say these last 15 years,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've just taken it on as a personal mission to,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you say,
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  SPEAKER_01: be a pastor to pastors,
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  SPEAKER_01: to shepherd those who need help,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether that's in private conversations,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I do that a lot,
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  or whether it's in a larger public forum of speaking at
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  conferences to help equip
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  SPEAKER_01: pastors to do the equipping ministry in their churches.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it did really begin with God...
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  SPEAKER_01: opening up my eyes about what a writing ministry could do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I've tried to be very careful and deliberate in that work,
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  and it's opened up all these other doors of speaking and
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  teaching and being at
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  SPEAKER_01: universities and in conferences and local churches.
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  I think it's a tremendous testament to,
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  I think,
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  God's grace that he's allowed you to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But also,
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  I know I can speak for many of my own friends that I've been
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  able to kind of
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  SPEAKER_00: introduce them to you through social media.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, hey, you should follow this guy.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's a really good encouragement.
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  SPEAKER_00: That I've just really benefited just even just small things of like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  your habit on Saturdays to like get pastors to share what
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  they're preaching about.
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  That's one of my favorite things whenever I talk to some of my
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  local pastor friends
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  here is what are you preaching through and how are you studying
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  and what are you
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  SPEAKER_00: what are you gleaning?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because more often than not,
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  SPEAKER_00: even one of my pastor friends,
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  SPEAKER_00: he's preaching through Ecclesiastes,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I did that a couple years ago,
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  SPEAKER_00: and he's gleaning things that I didn't even see,
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  which I think is what a great testament to the work of the
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  Spirit that he works
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  through his Word to bring things out to individuals so that
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  they can shepherd their
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  SPEAKER_00: people well.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so anyways,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sing your praises too much,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I have to commend you because I feel really encouraged because it is,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  something that is somewhat lost on pastoral ministry is the
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  idea that pastors need
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  SPEAKER_00: a pastor.
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  SPEAKER_00: They need to be shepherded themselves.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so much of pastoral ministry is,
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  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
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  SPEAKER_00: draining without ever getting filled back up again.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's one of the hardships that many pastors face.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  For me,
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  I'll just tell you where it's rooted as to why I do a lot of this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'll say it's twofold.
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  SPEAKER_01: First and primarily, it's rooted in a guy who he's no longer with us.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's with the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_01: He passed away a couple of years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: His name is Matt Roskam.
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  When I publicly acknowledged my call to ministry at the age of
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  16 and then preached
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  SPEAKER_01: that first sermon,
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  SPEAKER_01: Matt was a part-time assistant to the youth minister at my home church.
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  SPEAKER_01: And his family, they owned their own business.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Matt came alongside of me and said, hey, I'll disciple you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he discipled me weekly for three years,
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  just poured into my life and helped me to understand the
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  scripture better.
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  And I got to be in his home and watch he and his wife interact
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  and raise their kids.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so having somebody that close to me made such an impact that
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  SPEAKER_01: But then it was in some difficult ministry days when I was in my 20s,
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  where I was serving as a pastor of a church and probably wasn't
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  a great leader and
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  SPEAKER_01: needed some help along the way,
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  SPEAKER_01: that there were some older ministers around my life that encouraged me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, very much, God used them to salvage
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  a life of ministry when I was feeling very much kind of in the
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  ditch and not knowing,
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  SPEAKER_01: can God really use me in this?
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm a bit of a dunderhead about all of this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I just sought then to be an encouragement to others.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned...
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  SPEAKER_01: The Saturday night thing,
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  I started doing that several years ago and really kind of
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  doubled down on it during
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  SPEAKER_01: all of the COVID era because people felt so disconnected,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially pastors.
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  SPEAKER_01: They all felt like they were alone and couldn't do anything right.
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  SPEAKER_01: If we closed, we were wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: If we were open, we were wrong.
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  No matter what you did,
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  you were being pummeled on one side and the other.
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  And so on Saturday nights on the social media platform formerly
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  known as Twitter,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I also do it,
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_01: on Facebook as well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I do these pastor roll calls where I just ask,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  what's the text and the topic for your sermon this weekend and
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  how can I pray for you?
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  And what you're talking about and describing of how you've now
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  talked to friends about,
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  SPEAKER_01: hey,
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  SPEAKER_01: what are you preaching about?
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what I want to encourage.
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  It's not just that people will follow me on social media and
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  answer my tweet and
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  SPEAKER_01: respond to my Facebook post,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I want pastors locally to go,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
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  I ought to talk to that other guy because he did preach through
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  Galatians last year,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I'm doing it next year,
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  SPEAKER_01: and
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  And really build that camaraderie back because we can be
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  self-imposed loners as pastors.
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  And so we need to seek out those very healthy bonds of
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  friendship and brotherhood
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  SPEAKER_01: in the ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is so true.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I found myself encouraged both by,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I read through some of the comments on those posts,
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  SPEAKER_00: through the diversity of texts,
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  but then also sometimes how many of them often accord and
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  people different sides of
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  SPEAKER_00: the country are preaching on the same thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I just find so much just encouragement in that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  It amazes me as to how many guys have reached out to me
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  privately because of that.
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  Guys that we've never met in person and just will pour out
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  their hearts in a direct
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  SPEAKER_01: message to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: again,
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  SPEAKER_01: one of the practices that I have engaged in,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I would encourage other people to do this,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that is every week I try to find a pastor
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  SPEAKER_01: through social media that I've not met,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I reach out to him,
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  whether it is through a direct message or through an email
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  through his church website,
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  or I just call the church office just to find one more person
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  to encourage.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I would encourage pastors, do that locally.
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  SPEAKER_01: There should not be another pastor in town who's a stranger to you.
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  And so just find who you haven't met yet and introduce yourself
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  and offer some
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  SPEAKER_01: encouragement because you will likely receive it back.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I feel really blessed.
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  There's a great pastors network here in central Pennsylvania
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  that has really developed,
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  and they regularly meet and get together and just have great
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  times of fellowship.
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  SPEAKER_00: So shout out to the central Pennsylvania chapter of the Gospel Coalition.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'll shout them out.
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  SPEAKER_00: But as you said,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you just mentioned,
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  you talked to a lot of pastors about a lot of different things
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  on maybe a weekly,
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  SPEAKER_00: daily basis.
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  What's one of the most common sort of needs that you're finding
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  pastors expressing
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  SPEAKER_00: to you,
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  SPEAKER_00: or like prayer requests,
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  SPEAKER_00: or just things that you can kind of say,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is like the pulse of pastors for our present moment?
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  That may have been different in years past,
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  but what would you say it is right now?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a solid question.
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say that there are the evergreen issues that never go away.
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  They existed for the early church fathers and then during the
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  Great Schism and then
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  SPEAKER_01: for the Puritans,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they're going to exist for us as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I would say in this particular cultural moment,
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  SPEAKER_01: what I'm finding is,
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  SPEAKER_01: once again,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: we've cycled back around
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  to there is this fear about the apathy in the pew for
• 15:55
  evangelizing one's neighbor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's been,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: in the publishing world and in the conferencing world,
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  and so you get these kind of big macro issues that push down to
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  the local congregations,
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  SPEAKER_01: about deeper discipleship and deeper life and going deeper.
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  And then we've had a big push about being worshipful churches
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  and big worship movements.
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  And so once again,
• 16:22
  it's like there is this need that we re-evangelize our own neighborhoods.
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  And it's not that we're going to re-evangelize the part of the
• 16:32
  neighborhood that's
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  SPEAKER_01: utterly culturally,
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  SPEAKER_01: politically,
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  SPEAKER_01: morally different from us.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's that we have got
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  oftentimes a conservative nature of our neighborhoods and our communities,
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  SPEAKER_01: that they are conservative politically,
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  SPEAKER_01: but not necessarily in any kind of Christian or religious way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm finding more and more pastors are saying,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: we just need to teach our people how to share their faith again,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: because they're not really great at being good neighbors,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: and they're not really good at befriending people.
• 17:05
  And so there is that issue that I think has cropped back up of
• 17:10
  the need just simply
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: to re-evangelize the culture.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you do that now in current church forms?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of walked away from that.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like a decade, a decade and a half ago.
• 17:24
  The second thing I would add on to that is that pastors are
• 17:27
  facing cultural issues
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: that didn't feel like they existed several years ago.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And some of it is like the sexual revolution.
• 17:36
  We all knew things were going this direction,
• 17:39
  but we didn't know how fast they were going to go.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so here we are.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: But this technological issue of AI and technology,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a real person I'm talking to on ChatGPT and Grok3?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do with this?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And now pastors,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 18:03
  are struggling to figure out how do I catch up to these issues
• 18:07
  that are the
• 18:07
  everyday issues of the businessmen and women that are in my
• 18:11
  church and for the
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: teenagers that are in my church that they don't even have a framework
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: to put these things through their faith.
• 18:21
  And so I think that the speed at which culture is moving is
• 18:28
  disorienting for a lot of pastors.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would totally agree with that.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it comes kind of to some of the,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: one of the main motivations that you might have,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: which is this impetus to get people more biblically literate.
• 18:43
  And I think more and more as I grow in my ministry here in
• 18:49
  central Pennsylvania,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm finding that biblical literacy is
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: is one of the steepest issues that is facing the church,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: just because,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: without that literacy in the scriptures,
• 19:01
  there's not a defining lens by which we can understand this
• 19:07
  fast-paced culture in
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: which we live that is constantly changing,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: that is
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is also,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's changing,
• 19:15
  but it's also echoing what we've seen before in the scriptures
• 19:18
  with man's just bent
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: on himself,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: his curved in on his own preoccupation with himself.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is echoed in the word,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: which again is why for me and I'm sure for you,
• 19:33
  steeping people in the word of God is one of the chief ends or
• 19:37
  motivations that we
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: have or we can attain to.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 19:42
  And so when it comes to the work that I do in this kind of
• 19:46
  ambidextrous life that I
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: have of preaching and teaching on one side,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: but then my full-time vocation as a Bible publisher...
• 19:56
  It helps me to stay in that posture of I want to move people
• 20:02
  from reading the Bible
• 20:04
  perfunctory and in some kind of elementary way or listening to
• 20:09
  it passively.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: through sermons and not really engaging there,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: or through Sunday school classes but not really engaging,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: to how do we move them to actually a life of biblical engagement?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like with the work that we do at Nelson Bibles,
• 20:28
  we always put all of our editions through these really
• 20:33
  stringent tests of,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: is this a Bible that is going to draw people not to the notes,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: but it's going to draw them into the text?
• 20:42
  We don't ever want the study notes to somehow be a distraction
• 20:46
  where you just get
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: one person's opinion and
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: about what this passage is about,
• 20:52
  but instead we want them to constantly be turning people back
• 20:55
  into the Scripture,
• 20:57
  which is why we've been celebrating this 50th anniversary of
• 21:02
  this edition called
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: the Open Bible,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: because that's what it's designed to do,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: is to just help you to see
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: the uniform nature of Scripture and how the Bible interprets the Bible,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: how Scripture is the litmus test,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: since it is God's self-revelation.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 21:23
  And I also love the fact that this kind of serves all the
• 21:28
  aspects of your teaching
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: ministry is,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: in a way,
• 21:31
  to get people to open their Bibles more and then just leave it
• 21:35
  open and invest
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: themselves in what its words are.
• 21:40
  On that note,
• 21:40
  I think it would be maybe a helpful riff or rabbit trail maybe.
• 21:47
  So for people who are—maybe they're coming out of church
• 21:52
  demographics that have
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: been more vocal about a particular translation versus another one,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: how do you—
• 22:01
  How do you converse with someone who is questioning why are
• 22:05
  there changes to a translation?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why is the Word of God being changed?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's not exactly what's happening,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: but how do you go about navigating when you get asked those questions?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: and those questions come up because we have such a multitude of English
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: translations of the Bible,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: dozens of them.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 22:29
  there's less than one dozen that basically kind of dominate the
• 22:33
  landscape in terms
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: of readership,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: and Nelson,
• 22:38
  we are the stewards of the New King James Version of the Bible
• 22:43
  that was first
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: published in 1982,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: and it's
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: in the full canon and was commissioned.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I get to steward that one.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 22:51
  there are other very faithful people and committees that
• 22:56
  steward these other translations.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so that question of, well, did this translation take verses away?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Did this translation add verses?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are these words differently?
• 23:09
  And I would say that one is just simply the English language
• 23:12
  has every language.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: It changes over time.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Words change meanings.
• 23:18
  And so new translations are going to use the newest word that
• 23:24
  best communicates
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: what the Hebrew,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Aramaic,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: and Greek texts said in their historical context.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of it is just language changes,
• 23:35
  and so our translations of those ancient manuscripts need to be
• 23:40
  updated so that it
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: is understandable to the people of this generation.
• 23:46
  And then within our own season of life that you have some
• 23:51
  translations that operate...
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: on a dynamic theory, and others use a formal translation theory.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: In kind of modern parlance, it's phrase for phrase or word for word.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And both of those are...
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: academically rigorous and valid means of translating.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it does mean that you're going to get a translation like the NIV,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is much more dynamic,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: where it's going to move from thought for thought and phrase by phrase.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: say,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: the King James Version or the New American Standard Bible,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: that are going to be,
• 24:37
  they're going to feel a little bit more wooden because they're
• 24:39
  going to try to keep
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: to a word-for-word type of translation.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so the hope is that you find that balance in the middle,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: but they're both valid types of translations.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why you're going to find a different wording.
• 24:56
  The beautiful thing is that very rarely do any of these
• 25:01
  differences in translations
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: change any doctrinal meaning behind the phrasing that we find.
• 25:10
  And so I think that the major translations that are sold today
• 25:14
  are all faithful to
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: the original text and scriptures.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right,
• 25:21
  people are going to find differences based on when was this
• 25:24
  translated and under
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: what theory was it translated.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 25:29
  and there's always those social media posts that go around the
• 25:33
  memes where it's like,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: look at all the things that changed in this translation versus this one.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I chuckle,
• 25:38
  but then I also—my heart is sympathetic towards maybe people
• 25:43
  who are caught up in
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: all of that distraction.
• 25:47
  So if someone who is skeptical because they've been
• 25:51
  held—they're beholden to this
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: translation versus another one,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: let's say—
• 25:55
  So what would you say to them in order for them to be confident
• 25:59
  that the Bible that
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: they have in their hands,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: it is the Word of God,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: despite how many translation editions it has?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: for the King James people out there,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: we don't read the 1611 just to kind of like—not to like,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: bury—
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: The lead there.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So like,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: how can we inspire confidence in maybe young people who are seeing like,
• 26:23
  why are all these differences that the Bible that they have on
• 26:26
  their hands or on
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: their phones,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: like this is the word of God and we can be confident in that.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: and I would even begin with,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: which is a little bit of an odd place to start,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: would be the preface to the 1611 King James Version Bible.
• 26:43
  And there's actually a great little short book called The
• 26:45
  Forgotten Preface by
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Joshua Barzan about that,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: in which the translators,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: the translation committee of the 1611 KJV,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: referred to the need to update
• 27:01
  the translation as it was because they wanted to have what they
• 27:05
  referred to as a
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: mean translation,
• 27:09
  which is a perfect illustration as to why translations change
• 27:12
  because the word mean
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: for us has a different meaning than it did for them.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: They meant like normal, common, like common language.
• 27:23
  And so they wanted the translation to be in the common language
• 27:27
  of that day.
• 27:29
  And so for a young person who has been in a tradition where
• 27:32
  they've been exposed
• 27:34
  maybe to only one translation and now they're beginning to look
• 27:37
  at other translations...
• 27:39
  What I would encourage them to do is to actually look at the
• 27:43
  reference set that
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: comes along with those translations,
• 27:47
  because oftentimes there are translator notes that help them to
• 27:50
  see that maybe this
• 27:54
  very kind of archaic phrase that they were accustomed to has a
• 27:58
  modern meaning,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: and it'll often reference that archaic phrase that
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: down in the translator notes at the bottom of the page,
• 28:07
  to say this translation is not walking away from the original
• 28:12
  meaning of the Scripture.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's simply giving you the meaning in the most modern parlance possible.
• 28:20
  And that the textual basis for this translation may be
• 28:26
  different from the one that
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: you're accustomed to.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: But again, if you really want to look into it,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: what you'll find is that there is no doctrine,
• 28:36
  no major doctrine of Scripture is changed or undermined because
• 28:41
  of the textual
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: variance in the New Testament,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: for example.
• 28:45
  And one of the best resources that you can find on this is
• 28:51
  actually a translation
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: of the Bible that's called the New English Translation,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: the NET.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 28:58
  And there is an edition that we publish of the net that's
• 29:02
  called the Full Notes Edition.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it has,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: rather than having doctrinal study notes,
• 29:08
  it has 60,000 translator notes where the translation committee
• 29:14
  kept up with all of
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: their translation decisions.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And in the notes, it describes, you know, it gives you references to
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: manuscripts and manuscript fragments.
• 29:25
  It references other translations and how they translated
• 29:29
  certain words and phrases.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it just lays bare,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: this is what we were thinking when we translated this verse like this.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so really great
• 29:40
  gift to the church for just us normal people to be able to see
• 29:44
  behind what we feel
• 29:46
  like see behind the veil of what a translation committee was
• 29:49
  doing when they made
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: the decision about this verse,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: that verse,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: and the other verse.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think it helps,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: especially with ministries like,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: in recent days,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: ministries like Wesley Huffs,
• 30:03
  who's gotten a little bit of attention to be reminded of the
• 30:07
  fact that despite what
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: some unbelieving skeptics might say,
• 30:13
  the abundance of scriptural manuscripts from which we are
• 30:16
  translating is profuse.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a scarce thing.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: We can be confident in what the Word of God says,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: thankfully through the work of translators,
• 30:25
  but also for the fact that there's a lot of extant scripts that
• 30:29
  exist for us to go
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: back to and realize the Word of God hasn't changed,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: the message of the Word of God hasn't changed,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: which we could be very confident in.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 30:40
  it is a beautiful gift that we have this massive amount of
• 30:46
  papyrus scrolls and the
• 30:48
  Dead Sea Scrolls and the manuscript evidence that we have is
• 30:53
  overwhelming in terms
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: of being reminded of the doctrine of preservation,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: that God has preserved his word throughout the millennia and in
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: and then all of the historical discoveries,
• 31:12
  all of the archaeological discoveries that simply reinforce the
• 31:16
  historicity of what
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: we read in Scripture,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: that we have this constantly compounding evidence.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I do love the work that guys like Wes Huff and
• 31:29
  and Craig Evans and Jeremiah Johnston and many others have been
• 31:34
  doing to bring all
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: of that to light.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: in that regard,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: going back to what—we took a rabbit trail,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: but going back,
• 31:43
  what is a way that the open Bible kind of distinguishes itself
• 31:49
  from other Bibles
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: when you are putting it in the hands of,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: a disciple or a group of pastors,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: let's say?
• 31:56
  What is something that you can point to that kind of
• 31:58
  distinguishes it from others?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the open Bible—
• 32:04
  Well,
• 32:04
  the Open Bible,
• 32:06
  this year is the 50th anniversary of its publication.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And over these 50 years,
• 32:12
  there's been numerous iterations of it where the content in it
• 32:16
  has expanded and contracted.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: But kind of the secret sauce of it is...
• 32:22
  is that it aims to be a Bible that helps you reference the
• 32:27
  Bible with the Bible.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so at the end of verses, it's an end-of-verse reference system.
• 32:33
  So at the end of verses,
• 32:35
  you get cross-references to other places in the Bible where...
• 32:40
  This verse or an idea in this verse or a concept in this verse
• 32:43
  is referenced in other places.
• 32:45
  And so the whole portion of this Bible is we want you to be
• 32:50
  able to traverse back
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: and forth through the Scripture,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: seeing how everything is interconnected.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then along with that,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: it has a topical index in the front matter that's about 300 pages long.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to go and find...
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 33:07
  I know that there are exhaustive concordances that do similar
• 33:10
  type of work,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: but this is one that you can just have on your desk,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: have with you,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: so that if you want to find,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: what does the Bible have to say about hope or grace or forgiveness,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: that it's got this robust topical index.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then alongside of that, there are theological notes.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's called the Christian Guide to the New Life,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: where it chain links all of these ideas of some of them are theological,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: like the doctrine of the Holy Spirit.
• 33:40
  Some of them are more applicable in nature about family life or
• 33:44
  relationships so
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: that you can chain link these notes and you can follow the thread.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: through the scriptures.
• 33:52
  And so it is a Bible that invites you into the scripture
• 33:56
  without being heavy-handed
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: with study notes.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we publish those too.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to publish all sorts of study Bibles,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: but this is one that I've had in my own life since I was 17.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a copy of the Open Bibles since I was a young man,
• 34:13
  And it's always just been a very helpful resource that pulled
• 34:19
  me back into the
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Scriptures and helped me see how things were interconnected.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is wonderful,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: and it's so helpful when you see that,
• 34:29
  when you see all of these little interconnecting threads that
• 34:32
  bring this scripture
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: in light of that scripture,
• 34:35
  and you can see and trace the fact that there's this grand
• 34:39
  narrative that's being
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: told over thousands of years that's being preserved by the one true God,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: and what a grace that is for us.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: just hearing even just the title,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: The Open Bible,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: it kind of reminds me of that moment when
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I always love referencing this moment.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's my favorite moment in all of Scripture.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I know as pastors, you know, they have lots of favorite chapters.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: But my favorite chapter,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I would say,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: is Luke 24,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: where Jesus is,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: talking to the disciples on the road to Emmaus,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: and he opens their minds.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that phrase.
• 35:10
  And I think it's Luke 24,
• 35:12
  like verse 44,
• 35:14
  where Jesus is with all the other apostles.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it says that he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I imagine that's kind of what it's like,
• 35:23
  where suddenly it's like this puzzle piece fixes it all to
• 35:28
  where now suddenly all
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: of this makes sense.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: All of this is about Jesus.
• 35:32
  All of this finds its connecting point back in he who is the
• 35:36
  Christ of God and why
• 35:38
  he must suffer in order for all of these other things to be
• 35:41
  fulfilled and unfold as
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: they were promised to in the will of God and the grace of God.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that just kind of fills me with just...
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: So much thrill when you are able to see people make those connections.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It also makes me wish that,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could go back and be a part of that Bible study,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: because I'm sure that would have been amazing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 36:05
  and one of the other things I love about this particular
• 36:08
  edition of the Bible,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: we refer to them as messianic stars.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: is throughout the Old Testament,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: every place that there is a prophecy about the Christ,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: the Messiah,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: there's a little star in the margin next to that verse,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: and it's an open star.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not filled in.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the New Testament,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: every place that there's a fulfilled prophecy of the Messiah,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: then it's a filled-in star in the margin.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just this great little reference,
• 36:38
  visual reference cue to just keep reminding you of what God had
• 36:43
  in mind and what
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: God accomplished.
• 36:47
  You know,
• 36:47
  I would have loved to have been at that Luke 24 Bible study as well.
• 36:52
  But I'll tell you a ministry story that feels similar,
• 36:55
  and that is we were planting a church and
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this very rough and tumble guy by the name of Sonny,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: that was his nickname,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: came and started attending our church plant.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: He had been a veteran of both the military and the penal system.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: He was a rough, rough guy.
• 37:16
  And while he had been in jail,
• 37:19
  the Gideons had come by and had passed out Bibles.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so Sonny, who had not been out of jail for very long,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: He when he would pray when he was with us,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: he would pray to the God of Abraham,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Isaac and Jacob.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, he was not Jewish in any way whatsoever.
• 37:39
  And so when I asked him one day about that,
• 37:41
  he said,
• 37:41
  well,
• 37:42
  that's all I've read so far.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so he had started,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: like a normal person,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: when somebody gave him a book,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: he started at page one.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so he had only read, he had read most of the Old Testament.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, wait till you get to the next part, man.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: So Sonny,
• 38:01
  once he heard the message and the Holy Spirit was working on
• 38:08
  him and he understood,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: it took us a long time.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: It took him a long time to finally put his faith in Christ.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just this amazing kind of storyline to watch in his life.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: to go from reading all of these waiting for,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: waiting for,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: waiting for passages about the Messiah to then read about the Messiah.
• 38:33
  And so that's why I love it when we can help new believers and
• 38:38
  even people who've
• 38:39
  been believers for a long time to help them see these
• 38:43
  connections through the
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture from,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: the angel of the Lord saying,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:50
  to Joshua and the crowd,
• 38:52
  you know,
• 38:52
  be strong and courageous for the Lord your God is with you.
• 38:56
  And then watch that kind of idea get traced all the way into
• 39:00
  the New Testament of
• 39:02
  Paul giving encouragement and that same kind of impulse to the
• 39:09
  early believers of
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: the church.
• 39:11
  And that's why we want to just keep pressing people to engage
• 39:16
  their Bibles that
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: they have sitting around.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's so good, Phil.
• 39:21
  And I think it's also important because it speaks to one of the
• 39:25
  things that I've kind of made.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to say I have a hobby horse,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: my hobby horse is showing people that Jesus is everywhere in your Bible,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: not just the New Testament.
• 39:34
  And I think even that little addition of a marginal star helps
• 39:39
  people just be
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: triggered to the point where they can notice,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: this is something that's speaking to what Jesus is going to do.
• 39:47
  uh either he's it's a blatant observation of or promise of the
• 39:52
  messiah or it's
• 39:53
  something that's a little more subtle but we can see the fact
• 39:55
  that jesus doesn't
• 39:57
  just show up in and you know luke chapter 2 and then now he's
• 40:00
  here he's been there
• 40:02
  all along and what he is pro has has been you know promised to
• 40:07
  do by the father has
• 40:09
  been has been there all along and what a great hope for us um
• 40:13
  it it reminds me of
• 40:14
  my favorite one of my favorite martin luther quotes of which
• 40:16
  there are many
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: is when he comments on the Psalms that all Scripture is pure Christ.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that because conveying to our people,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: or to my people here,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: or to anyone that I have the privilege of speaking to,
• 40:29
  just this wonderful fact that Jesus isn't plan B on God's idea
• 40:35
  to redeem the world.
• 40:36
  He's still on plan A,
• 40:38
  and this is how it was always going to unfold,
• 40:40
  and this is how he's
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: going to reconcile all things to himself.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what a great hope that we can have in that.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: What great confidence and faith that engenders.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:52
  The phrase that was reinvigorated by some pastors in our day
• 41:00
  and age is this idea
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: of true and better,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: and really associating it with Jesus,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: that Jesus is the true and better.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's the true and better priest.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's the true and better shepherd.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: He's the true and better king.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for people to be able to see that constantly,
• 41:17
  that there are these shadows and these types of Christ in the
• 41:21
  Old Testament,
• 41:22
  and how it is that we see these prophecies fulfilled where
• 41:26
  Jesus is the true and
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: better king that we've been waiting for.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was the true and better shepherd.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Moses, deliverer.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: He was the true and better prophet.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: He was the true and better of everything.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And just to continuously help people to see these connecting points.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, the grand narrative that God had this in place.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And now he's so kind.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: God, in all of his kindness.
• 41:52
  has protected and preserved the canon of Scripture and that we
• 41:58
  as ministers get to
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: deliver it in a very special way into the life of the church,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: but that every believer can sit down with a copy of God's Word.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit,
• 42:13
  can study and understand and memorize and abide in it and
• 42:18
  meditate on it and use it
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: as the fuel for their prayer life.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: God,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: His kindness knows no bounds,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: and it certainly is shown in His gift of the Scriptures to us.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, amen to that.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to circle back on one thing you mentioned a little bit earlier,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is just this idea of young preachers,
• 42:42
  and maybe even if you can speak to young preachers going into
• 42:46
  situations where
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: they're pastoring older churches,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: if I can say it that way.
• 42:51
  And I'm speaking from somewhat of experience on that,
• 42:54
  but just a twofold question.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: What is your advice?
• 42:58
  What would be some of your advice to young pastors entering
• 43:04
  into a congregation
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: that's been around for a while?
• 43:07
  Maybe they're taking over from a pastor that had been there for
• 43:09
  a while,
• 43:10
  something like that.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: But then also, what would be your advice to a congregation?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: as they welcome a young preacher,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: because I think there's a lot of area for pitfalls on both sides of that,
• 43:24
  either assumption or there could be any number of things that
• 43:28
  could lead to
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: implosion in one way or another.
• 43:31
  So what would be some of your advice to young preachers in that situation?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so my advice to young preachers, I'll give that first.
• 43:39
  And I would say that there's advice I'll give to you about the
• 43:43
  internal life of the
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: church and the external life that you have.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll start with the external.
• 43:48
  And that is you need to find other pastors to circle back to
• 43:53
  what we talked about
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: at the very beginning.
• 43:55
  You need to find other pastors in that city that you can get
• 44:00
  into close fellowship with.
• 44:02
  So that you can better understand the community in which you
• 44:06
  are ministering,
• 44:06
  because you're not just importing your favorite culture into
• 44:11
  that city and into
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: that church.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: You need to understand missiologically, where have you come to pastor?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where is it that God has called you?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you can learn a lot from the other pastors that are there in town,
• 44:24
  and they can give you a lot of insight into the life of your congregation,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: most likely.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: So invest in those relationships.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: internally,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: when you show up,
• 44:37
  one of the first things you should do is just go on a research
• 44:41
  expedition about
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: that church family.
• 44:44
  As a pastor,
• 44:45
  one of the things I always did was I would go and find,
• 44:50
  as silly as it sounds,
• 44:53
  all of the minutes to all of the business meetings for as far
• 44:57
  back as I could find,
• 44:59
  because they will teach you the story arc and the history of
• 45:04
  how decisions get made
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: in that particular congregation.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: You'll learn about who has the most influential voice.
• 45:13
  You'll learn what are the most important issues that have
• 45:17
  happened in that church
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: over the last couple of decades.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so do everything that you can to learn who these people are.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: from that level of how have they made decisions,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: why have they made decisions,
• 45:31
  what decisions did they make about what was important in the
• 45:35
  life of the church so
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: that you can better understand them.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then just decide that you want to pastor them,
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: not just use them as an audience to preach to.
• 45:45
  I think it is the trap that a lot of young pastors fall into is
• 45:53
  that they don't mean to.
• 45:56
  but they wind up just using their first congregations as a
• 45:59
  place to preach,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: where they're trying to hone their preaching craft,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: which you should.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: But these are not people that are just provided by God as your audience.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do you learn to pastor them?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to take the long view of that.
• 46:18
  When it comes to congregations,
• 46:21
  I would encourage congregations that maybe...
• 46:24
  maybe you're that member of a congregation and you're older and
• 46:29
  you know that your
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: congregation kind of trends older in age.
• 46:32
  And so you've decided we're going to call a young pastor with a
• 46:35
  young family
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: because we want to draw in other young families in our community.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing I want to tell you is it doesn't work that way.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Just having a young pastor who has a young wife and young kids will not
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: automatically draw in the young families of the community.
• 46:54
  I would say just decide up front that you want to be a partner
• 46:59
  in the growth of the
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: church with this pastor.
• 47:02
  You want to find out what is it that the Lord is going to teach
• 47:06
  him while he's
• 47:07
  teaching you about what would it look like for our church to
• 47:11
  grow spiritually and
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: to grow numerically.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: How can we have the best gospel impact in our community?
• 47:19
  And come into it with the realization that this person who's
• 47:23
  new may help you see
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: some blind spots that you've been carrying for many,
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: many years about the life of the church.
• 47:33
  He's going to see things that you have intentionally or
• 47:37
  unintentionally not been seeing.
• 47:39
  And so make the decision up front that we're not just bringing
• 47:42
  him in as the new
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: sheriff in town who's going to make everything happen.
• 47:47
  But we're calling Him because we want to partner with Him in
• 47:51
  this work of the gospel,
• 47:54
  both how it's working in our lives and how it's going to work
• 47:57
  in the life of the community.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's really solid advice, Phil.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it reminds me that there's,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: as much as there's burdens on pastors,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: there's burdens on church families to,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: do the work of the ministry.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: if I could say this,
• 48:14
  one of the things that is misunderstood about pastoral ministry
• 48:18
  is that they're in
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: the equipping business,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: not necessarily always the doing business of that ministry,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is a really important point to remember.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that I've put it,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: and I learned this by being a pastor,
• 48:34
  is that it's a constant work of reorienting ourselves to move
• 48:41
  out of a catering
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: mentality to an equipping mentality.
• 48:45
  And the church has to come along with you on that,
• 48:48
  that as a leader of a church,
• 48:51
  We do not exist to simply cater to the religious whims of a congregation.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: But instead, we operate as equippers of the body of Christ.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the body of Christ has to be willing.
• 49:07
  They have to be eager to be equipped and to move out of just a
• 49:13
  catering mentality of...
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: I showed up, aren't you glad I'm here?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've come here so you can feed me,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: so that I can feel better,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: so that I can get hope,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: and now I'm going to go about my business the rest of the day.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I do want to tag on to that for pastors.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Equipping is hard.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is more difficult than catering.
• 49:36
  And so you have to decide to do it,
• 49:38
  but then you have to understand what is it going to mean.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 49:42
  I have the benefit and the blessing that the corporate
• 49:47
  environment in which I work
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: is a Christian division of publishing.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I work around Christians all day long,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: and we do the work of publishing Bibles,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: and I've got colleagues around my company who
• 50:00
  that they publish Christian Bible studies and books and
• 50:04
  devotionals and all of
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: these kind of things.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: But we work in a global for-profit business.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a Bible publisher,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't sit around all day long with my Hebrew text and my Greek text.
• 50:18
  And,
• 50:18
  you know,
• 50:19
  I do get to dream up new study Bibles and things of that nature.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm a businessman, right?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm in my P&L statement multiple times a day.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at inventory management all week long.
• 50:32
  I'm constantly in and out of the daily sales report and project management.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a businessman.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I do for 55 hours a week.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it has reminded me that when I preach at a church,
• 50:48
  I'm preaching to plumbers and accountants and businessmen and
• 50:52
  women and people who
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: run donut shops and hamburger stands,
• 50:58
  that they do not have the luxury of being able to sit around
• 51:03
  and read their Bible
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: for three hours in the morning and pray for two hours at night and
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the caricature that oftentimes they have about pastors,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: is that you guys have got this life of Riley,
• 51:21
  you've got this luxurious life where you just get to sit around
• 51:24
  and read all day long.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right, we only work one day a week, right?
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:30
  But it is the reminder to me that the people that I'm going to
• 51:33
  preach to on Sunday,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: that tomorrow morning on Monday,
• 51:38
  they're going to be up at 5.30 in the morning because they've
• 51:41
  got to get downtown
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: to an office or they've got to get to a job site.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they're going to work for...
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: not eight hours,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to be at work for 9,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: 10,
• 51:52
  11 hours,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: and they're going to come home exhausted.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they're going to do that all week long.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: And just to be mindful,
• 51:57
  what kind of context am I trying to equip them for to try to
• 52:02
  find those places to
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: share the gospel,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: to minister to a co-worker,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: that they're going to come home exhausted in the evening,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: and then they've got to take little Johnny to a basketball game.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: For us,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: those of us that are serving in ministry,
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: we want to equip them,
• 52:19
  but be mindful of the life that they are leading so that you
• 52:23
  know how to equip them
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: well and not just...
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: not the caricature that you hold in your own mind of what their life is.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's working a nine to five.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's working a seven to six.
• 52:38
  And just to try to understand what their life is so that you
• 52:42
  can pastor them well.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: On that note,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: how,
• 52:47
  or what advice would you give to pastors or preachers as
• 52:50
  they're preparing sermons?
• 52:53
  How should something like that inform the way that they're
• 52:55
  writing their sermons?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily like in length or depth per se,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: but like what is,
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: or we could say it this way,
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: what's one of like,
• 53:04
  if you had to condense your advice for preachers who are
• 53:07
  preparing sermons into
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: like a sentence,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: what would you want to convey to preachers?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you can do that.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was going to say, what a cruel thing to ask.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Condense it to one sentence.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you three points.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a Baptist.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, three points, but not a poem or a deathbed story.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think I can pull it together.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: What I...
• 53:37
  What I want to say to pastors is that it is good and right to
• 53:43
  challenge our people
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: into the deeper things of God.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: And here's why.
• 53:50
  Every day the men and women and the teenagers in your church
• 53:55
  are dealing with
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: complex technical information in their fields of life.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Accountants, that's a complex world to live in.
• 54:07
  Plumbers and tradesmen,
• 54:09
  people that are fixing HVAC systems,
• 54:12
  that's not easy stuff.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: Those are complex systems.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: And teenagers,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: if you can learn to order coffee at Starbucks,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: you can learn theological vocabulary.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 54:26
  And so there is no reason for you to withhold the deeper truths
• 54:33
  of Scripture
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: because they are dealing with complex issues all week long.
• 54:39
  So there's no reason to treat them like they're elementary
• 54:44
  school children.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: unfurl the deep truths of God,
• 54:51
  but then always move them toward how it's going to impact their
• 54:59
  daily living.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is,
• 55:02
  I would say that the temptation to avoid is to jump from the
• 55:07
  reading of the
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture straight to the application.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure that you read the Scriptures, unfold it to them, expose them.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Expository preaching, that's my bag, that's my jam.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Expose...
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: Open to them the deep truths that are there.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Show them how there is this interconnection and interplay,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: as we've talked about,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: of Scripture,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: how Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of it,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: and then how it can apply into their life.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: But don't hide the deep stuff from them.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Move it right to the forefront of their lives.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 55:50
  I love that sense of bringing these deep things of God's Word
• 55:54
  for and to our people.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Of course,
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: it reminds me of Ezra and Nehemiah,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: where it talks about how they gave the sense,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: which speaks to the fact that...
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: as sometimes difficult as God's Word is to read,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: just maybe from a grammatical standpoint,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: God hasn't chosen to,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: so we could say,
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: hide himself in a way that he's wanting to close himself off.
• 56:19
  He has very much disclosed who he is on the pages of scriptures
• 56:23
  for us to see and
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: to know and to cherish and to revel in,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: and I think
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the great,
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: I could say,
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: joys of preaching ministry,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: of pastoral ministry,
• 56:33
  is showcasing but also just showing people what a joy it is to
• 56:38
  see how all of this
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: does unfurl and unfold exactly according to how God had said.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 56:47
  And that's what fills me with joy all the time,
• 56:50
  just showing people of Christ all the time.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: indeed,
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: kind of like what we've talked about,
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: showing people that as they open their word,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: their eyes are going to be opened as well.
• 57:01
  So is there anything else you want to sort of leave our
• 57:05
  audience with or kind of
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: plug or showcase,
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: if you will?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: as we've talked a little bit about the Open Bible,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: I would just encourage you to take a look at it.
• 57:14
  It's just such a great tool that I got my first copy of an Open
• 57:18
  Bible when I was a teenager.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: I still have it on my shelf.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: I still use it.
• 57:22
  It's just a really helpful tool and just appreciative of the
• 57:28
  fact that you and so
• 57:30
  many others have been encouraging in the work that we do at
• 57:35
  Thomas Nelson,
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: both with
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: our Bible editions with our translations that we get to steward.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 57:42
  the plug I would make is just go to thomasnelsonbibles.com and
• 57:47
  just troll around
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: and find the Bible that will be most helpful to you in this season.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: And just...
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, allow the ancillary material to be an encouragement to you.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: Allow the cross references to show you the way.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just fun.
• 58:09
  Just be reminded of the fun and the joy that we have of being
• 58:14
  able to dig into the
• 58:15
  scriptures to see how it is that God tells us who he is and
• 58:20
  then what it is that
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: he's doing to shape us to look more and more like Jesus.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: Phil, thanks so much for your time today.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure having you on,
• 58:30
  and I look forward to staying connected with you in all of the
• 58:33
  future days as well.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot, Bradley.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've been blessed by this episode.
• 58:39
  Make sure to subscribe to Ministry Minded over on Apple
• 58:43
  Podcasts or wherever you
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: get your podcasts,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: like Spotify or wherever,
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Substack 2.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you check out all the notes.
• 58:49
  There's lots of good links that Philip mentioned,
• 58:52
  so make sure you check out those.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: I included them in the show notes.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: But as always, I appreciate all of your encouragement and your support.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for listening.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for commenting.
• 59:01
  Make sure you share this with any that you might think could
• 59:05
  benefit from listening
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: to this conversation as well.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: And until then, I'll see you on the next episode.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Blessings.