Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Reusable Packaging | Mike Newman | S7 E6

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Future of Reusable Packaging | Mike Newman | S7 E6 · FUTURE OF XYZ

• 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:26:10 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this episode of Future of XYZ, presented by iF Design. I'm super, super excited, as I always am, for all my guests. But this one in particular, Mike Newman, talking about the future of reusable packaging. It holds a special place in my heart, not only because packaging is one of my personal passions and reusable packaging, 00:00:26:15 - 00:00:40:10 Speaker 1 moreover, but Mike and I have known each other since the founding almost, or when he took over as CEO, of Returnity Innovations back in 2016, 2017 was it Mike? 00:00:40:10 - 00:00:42:21 Speaker 2 Pre-pandemic so that sounds about right. Yes. 00:00:42:23 - 00:00:59:07 Speaker 1 So I came on board, you came on board actually at XRC Labs and where I was an advisor. And we've we've been having this conversation ever since, and I'm so excited to share it with our listeners and viewers on Future of XYZ today. 00:00:59:09 - 00:01:02:10 Speaker 2 Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. 00:01:02:12 - 00:01:26:14 Speaker 1 Well, you spent I mean, besides being a serial entrepreneur who built three companies, you spent 20 years in various kind of roles at the intersection of supply chain and sustainability. And I know that, you know, whether it was directing the Sierra Club's political operations across 20 states or whether it was, you know, building e-waste programs very early on for big companies like Verizon and Best Buy or Wal-Mart. 00:01:26:15 - 00:01:54:23 Speaker 1 And as your role at ReCellular, you came on to Returnity Innovations, I guess it's almost eight years ago now. And your guys tagline, if I can call it that, is making single use packaging extinct before we are, which is bold it’s bold, but I love it. And you live in Brooklyn. You're a New Yorker, but I'm really want to dive in because there's so much on this topic. 00:01:54:23 - 00:02:12:07 Speaker 1 I mean, people are going to be saying like, well, reusable packaging, what does that look like? And I think it's distinct in your business tagline of like single versus single use, but in your expertise and experience. Mike, can you just define for us what reusable packaging really means? 00:02:12:09 - 00:02:32:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, it can apply on, you know, in an industry you'd say there's the primary package, which is the thing that holds the product itself. There's the secondary package, which is the thing that gets the stuff to and from and between, you know, factories and warehouses and warehouses and stores. And then there's even tertiary packaging, which is the things that move, the things that move. 00:02:32:20 - 00:02:54:14 Speaker 2 But really at its core, it's packaging that is designed for multiple uses purposefully. Some packaging is used more than once. You know, you see lots of people buy a water bottle and then refill that, you know, a disposable water bottle and then find a drinking fountain and fill it back up. But that's explicitly designed for single use, whether or not someone tries to get extras out of it. 00:02:54:16 - 00:03:07:03 Speaker 2 Really, it's something where the company that is selling the product means for that packaging to be used by that consumer or that customer multiple times in a purposeful manner. 00:03:07:05 - 00:03:31:24 Speaker 1 The purposeful piece of this is really important because at some point historically, we switched from, I mean, historically you used to refill your milk bottles and your wine bottles, and you're you're you're soap, right. I mean, these were things that were regularly refilled. I mean, in some ways one could argue that that's actually like kind of the most historical solutions that we have in the world. 00:03:32:01 - 00:03:50:10 Speaker 1 But then kind of I mean, I don't know if this is true, but it probably is sometime around, you know, the forties, fifties with consumer kind of growth of consumer packaged goods, where you could have single use because of material innovations, because of global supply chains and it was brand differentiated and that became really sexy and appealing. 00:03:50:10 - 00:04:17:22 Speaker 1 And we suddenly shifted from this model that was always in place of reuse into this very single use, which is flooding our world with unbelievable amounts of plastic and paper waste and and toxicity, frankly. What are the things that are happening kind of on small scale individually that, you know, I think about tote bags that you think are actually like leaning us, starting to lean us more towards like, you know, that reusability right now? 00:04:17:24 - 00:04:47:18 Speaker 2 Well, yeah. I mean, packaging, it's obviously it's highly visible. If you survey consumers, they will tell you they hate it and they hate how much they get and they hate how wasteful it is. And you see it clogging drains and, you know, wetlands and everything else. So it's a very visible issue. And a lot of brands have tried to get in front of that in a way that I think is very purposeful, you know, just leading with values, not necessarily leading from a strict business standpoint in addressing it. 00:04:47:18 - 00:05:10:10 Speaker 2 They also know that, you know, they don't like it when their customers are mad at them about something, so they want to try and find a solution. So there's been lots of pecking away at the problem in different ways, whether that's a concentrate like, you know, a tablet that you put in a specially designed bottle and fill with water or a reusable tote bag or refillables or bring to the store to, you know, put, you know, put refill in the store or what have you. 00:05:10:10 - 00:05:27:20 Speaker 2 There's a lot of different models and brands and attempts at it. But, you know, they all stem from the it's not even an elephant in the room, it’s just that everybody knows, yes, the packaging is a problem and companies generally are trying, I think, to get in front of and consumers want them to. So the attempts are there. 00:05:27:22 - 00:05:57:21 Speaker 1 And there's certainly startups who are trying across different sectors and regions. And I mean, but it seems to be largely in the startup world that these tests are being made, I mean, that reusable, you know, at Returnity, you guys are thinking about reusability and I think at scale. I mean, I think that you and I have had some very interesting conversations I want to dive into, like, what does it take to achieve scale from a logistics point of view, from a from a value chain point of view, from a material innovation point of view, all of that. 00:05:57:21 - 00:06:18:11 Speaker 1 But I'm actually really curious, first and foremost, like you and I have talked about, like what what I guess cycles are, right? Like what, what about rotations, I guess. How many times you use it. So I want to come back to like the tote bag example, Like all of us have dozens of tote bags, you know, sitting in our closets or, you know, in our cars or whatever we may reuse them. 00:06:18:11 - 00:06:33:24 Speaker 1 But like actually what it takes to produce that cotton or canvas tote bag versus, you know, a paper bag ideally, versus a plastic one. What what is that kind of rotational cycle that's necessary for it to be better than something else? 00:06:34:01 - 00:06:52:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a mistake, frankly, that I think the industry makes over and over again, which is they they design reusables for durability. That's the point. Right? They're meant to be used a lot, but they tend to design it without necessarily appreciating what the real world use cycles that it will get are instead of what's the laboratory reusability of it. 00:06:52:15 - 00:07:19:19 Speaker 2 So they may, yeah, those tote bags, even the cheapest ones you get at the grocery store, they usually say it's good for 125 uses. Well that's not how most consumers wind up actually using, right. It won't see that volume. So that's the issue is not so many how many uses do you have to get? It's it's aligning the material density the construction of it to the real world use cycles that you will see and getting that that alignment. 00:07:19:19 - 00:07:37:04 Speaker 2 So sometimes that might mean 100 uses and sometimes it might be three, but you have to pick the right product, the durability of the material, the construction, everything to fit actual behavior, not lab behavior. And that doesn't happen too often still in the industry. It's an area for a lot of improvement, frankly. 00:07:37:06 - 00:08:04:19 Speaker 1 That's actually pretty fascinating. I think that's true for a lot of things, but I wouldn't have thought about it in this context. In terms of that material innovation that we're talking about, I mean, the reusability factor depends on creating both eco-friendly alternatives and innovative materials sciences to replace. I mean, you guys are focused, you have some consumer use cases and we can talk about those. 00:08:04:19 - 00:08:35:23 Speaker 1 But you guys are also really focused, for instance, on like commercial impacts. So like logistics, right? Where it's like we all know like the corrugated cardboard box, like those big boxes wrapped in shrink wrap, you know, filled with poly bags. I mean, the amount of plastic waste as well as paper waste is pretty unbelievable. And you think about all of our goods have to be transported between their various manufacturing points and their distribution points and then their delivery points, etc.. 00:08:36:00 - 00:08:44:16 Speaker 1 I mean, this is this is you know, this is intense labor. I mean, what are the material innovations that are happening that are, you know, are replacing this? 00:08:44:18 - 00:09:11:12 Speaker 2 Well, you know, on some level, it's it's really interesting stuff being made out of seaweed or agro waste or shredded and, you know, broken down, used packaging or things like that. And so there is material innovation. It's also become a bit of a catch 22 or a double edged sword in the sense that a lot of the companies and the activists who are pushing reuse are coming at it from a real activist mindset. 00:09:11:12 - 00:09:36:02 Speaker 2 And so they're saying, well, it's not just I'm going to make this thing reusable, I'm going to make it out of 100% of organic and ocean source and all these things, which is very admirable. But if you're already struggling to get the business case, to even get the reusable alternative viable, and then you're layering in all these other social goods that you feel like that system has to embrace on top of all the other things, it can be really tough. 00:09:36:02 - 00:10:02:07 Speaker 2 So, you know, to be honest, I don't think of it too much as a material innovation challenge. I think of it as a systems challenge and aligning all these things. I applaud the companies that want to make that sort of central to it, but generally it's like it's glass, it's plastic, like it's not that much about the product packaging innovation, it's more about the smart system integration and aligning it to actual behavior. 00:10:02:07 - 00:10:28:00 Speaker 1 That’s powerful. And as someone who's gone into a lot of companies over the years as a change agent, change is hard, but you are considered, Mike I mean, one of the leading experts in the transformation of logistics platforms from single use to circular economy, really to reusables, right? What is this journey like, you know, for companies? Like what does transformation at systems level even look like? 00:10:28:02 - 00:10:50:19 Speaker 2 Well, I think that it starts from just acknowledging that if you if it costs more, you're it's going to be really hard to to get it to scale. Right. And lots of companies have make very genuine commitments to this stuff. But you can't really afford to pay a premium, particularly if you're not regulated into it. And so it's not a cost that's going to be borne across all your competitive cohort. 00:10:50:21 - 00:11:24:11 Speaker 2 And so for us, it's A acknowledging that companies don't pay more, that they can't. And B, change is really expensive and hard, particularly at the consumer level. And companies are not generally going to be good change agents. You know, that's a society level sort of commitment that needs to be made, not a company by company level commitment. And so if you have to pay more and sort of shoulder the challenge of getting consumers in mass to change their behavior, you know, you look at how hard it's been for societies to get recycling to work that scale decades and decades and. 00:11:24:15 - 00:11:25:21 Speaker 1 And still not there. 00:11:25:23 - 00:11:44:23 Speaker 2 Still not there. So, you know, reuse carries a lot of the same behavior change characteristics and infrastructure investment and so forth at the consumer level. So the way we've done it as a company is to try and, you know, really identify where are those cycles, where are those systems, you know, inter logistics being sort of the most prominent where employees can be trained and managed. 00:11:44:23 - 00:12:04:16 Speaker 2 It's an easier sort of starting place and you can create success for companies and employees. That gives you a better sort of foundation for expanding into other segments. But ultimately, I think it just comes down to reuse. You can't boil the ocean here. Like we have to be smart about where, you know, reuse is one tool in the toolkit. 00:12:04:18 - 00:12:19:05 Speaker 2 It can be a really successful one, but it is only one tool in the toolkit. And, you know, if you come at it from an absolutist standpoint, you're going to get disappointed because it's just not practical in all applications. In many applications. 00:12:19:07 - 00:12:53:04 Speaker 1 One of the things I mean, you just touched on it and I wanted to ask about it explicitly because you're talking about behavior change at the consumer level, but being enabled by greater growth. I mean, the truth is everything in business comes down to money. I mean, that's that is that is capitalism. And very rarely, i.e., never do things happen or change, especially if it's not profitable, not demanded by consumers and or even more kind of stick approach versus the carrot which is regulated. 00:12:53:04 - 00:13:21:03 Speaker 1 Right. And mandated. I mean, you are thinking about this balance between sustainability and doing good with finance, achieving financial goals and satisfying customer demand. How is it that, you know, you think about this switch, you know, from from single use into reusable, how do you empower companies? It's really their purchasing departments and supply chain organizations to adopt these innovative new models. 00:13:21:05 - 00:13:43:03 Speaker 2 Well, I think it has to be and an appreciation of how to so yeah, first of all, if it doesn't happen at scale, it doesn't have impact. Right. So like I, I appreciate that there's a lot of really interesting and innovative and inspiring companies that are doing things for small communities who are just like all in and that should be supported and applauded. 00:13:43:03 - 00:14:13:02 Speaker 2 But obviously that's different than getting a mass, you know, big box retailer or major CPG to adopt it. Like that's a totally different level of change. And so you have to start by sort of knowing how they work, right? Like what is even possible for them? Like one thing that I think is overlooked very often is that their entire businesses are built upon selling individual items over and over and over again and everything, you know, bonus structures, revenue planning, investments, everything is built around that model. 00:14:13:02 - 00:14:33:08 Speaker 2 Then you come to them and say like, but here's this reuse model which will take a year to pay off because you have to get them to buy it. Like the whole business isn't like set up to even do that thing. So, you know, if you have to take on that level of change it’s not just then convincing the consumers to do it, but also like overhaul how a multibillion dollar enterprise aligns their entire. 00:14:33:08 - 00:14:55:03 Speaker 2 But like, you know, you shouldn't be surprised that it's really hard to accomplish. And so I think one of the ways that I think reuse needs to continue to, like, improve, to gain credibility, is to appreciate how retail works today for the major players and what you need to do to make it viable, even, you know, something that they can accomplish. 00:14:55:05 - 00:15:03:00 Speaker 2 And then, you know, and frankly, like open setting reuse, you know, the shorthand for it is like open setting reuse just doesn't really work at all. 00:15:03:02 - 00:15:04:21 Speaker 1 What does that mean, open setting reuse. 00:15:05:01 - 00:15:27:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. So open setting means like the person is taking the package away, maybe it's shipped to their home, maybe they buy in the store and take it home and you need them to bring it back somewhere to do it, to do a thing again as opposed to a closed setting, which might be reasonable cups in a corporate cafeteria or, you know, the next like NBA game you go to or something like that. 00:15:27:12 - 00:15:43:10 Speaker 2 They work really well in that context because like, guess what? They're staying in the building and like when they stay in the building, you can do it at a high level. If they're taking it home, it's much harder. And so I think, you know, at the end of the day, it's like the shorthand for us when we're talking to retailers. 00:15:43:10 - 00:16:06:13 Speaker 2 And, you know, my experience in industry is, talk to brands and retailers and find out where do they have the most analogous close context component of their business, where they control the movement of the products to the greatest degree. That's the place you need to start. And once it's out of the building or away from the restaurant or whatever it is, it is extremely difficult. 00:16:06:15 - 00:16:33:11 Speaker 1 It's it's fascinating. And you're talking about like you just used a couple of like small examples. I mean, the market from what I researched, is growing. I mean, we're almost like 5.7% CAGR is anticipated between 2025 and 2034. So the next ten years. Right. And moving to like from just under 134 billion U.S. dollars in value to over 220 billion. 00:16:33:13 - 00:17:06:16 Speaker 1 And it's they're big numbers, but they're certainly not huge. But it is growing right There are many factors that are driving this kind of move towards sustainability. At the same time, when I'm looking even by 2030, the penetration of reusable is anticipated to be less than 5% of all packaging. So those numbers are cute, right, when you think about the growth, But when you think about less than 5% penetration, it's actually quite depressing because it's not moving fast enough. 00:17:06:16 - 00:17:23:00 Speaker 1 And you talk about this closed system versus open, like where are some of the places both geographically in the world as well as from a, you know, end use case vertical industry, however you want to talk about it, where this growth is happening and where there's real opportunity? 00:17:23:06 - 00:17:45:17 Speaker 2 I think, yeah, I mean, I think that certainly like conveyance packaging, like shipping boxes, you know, which is what we tend to focus on at our company. But the things that get stuff to the customers or get things between facilities, you're seeing adoption there and that's pretty hidden. It's not visible to consumers broadly. They don't you know, they're not in the warehouse. 00:17:45:17 - 00:18:10:02 Speaker 2 They don't know how things are getting between warehouses and stores and back again. You know, all the like no label, no return programs that make e-commerce more efficient. Increasingly, when you go drop off your return somewhere that's going in a reusable package as opposed to in a single use package because the employees can kind of manage control. So a lot of stuff is happening behind the scenes, which is when it's business to business, it's much more easily managed. 00:18:10:03 - 00:18:38:22 Speaker 2 And then I think like you're seeing school cafeterias, concert halls, stadiums, corporate cafeterias, things like that. And then there's this sort of like fringe consumer products, I call them fringe, because they're really about like how both product and and packaging sort of differentiation. A lot of these startups that I think are playing with the whole notion of how we buy and consume products which are gaining an audience, but it's slow. 00:18:38:22 - 00:18:54:05 Speaker 2 So like that stuff is the most visible often. And I think why people are frustrated by the progress because they don't think it's growing that quickly. And frankly, relative to the size of the markets, it's not. But the flipside is when they find their customers, it succeeds. So like you have this stuff that maybe isn't quite as visible, right? 00:18:54:05 - 00:19:18:21 Speaker 2 Where they don’t even think about it because like you go to the concert and you get in a cup and you give it back and like that doesn't feel as revolutionary, which is kind of why it's working right? Like it sort of aligns easier. The like, how am I buying beans or ice cream or whatever? There's so many structural and behavioral issues there that I think that's why you don't it doesn't feel as much as it's growing in it. 00:19:18:21 - 00:19:49:17 Speaker 1 Especially in the U.S., right. I mean, Northern Europe has been like, you know, and parts of, you know, Central Europe as well, I mean, have been buying in bulk. For instance, you know, bringing your own containers like at the you know, at the at the parts of the co-op, for instance, like, you know, unto themselves and people like myself who have been buying natural beauty products for for decades, you know, like there's a lot of refill abilities, which means that the packaging typically is reusable, not necessarily always great, but like at least reusable more than once. 00:19:49:17 - 00:20:09:12 Speaker 1 Right. You talked about before, like, you know, detergents and things that were getting concentrated and taking the water out. I mean, there is stuff happening, but you're right that like a, we're not seeing it and B, it's still not en masse like, what's it going to take to kind of move the needle besides regulation, as we said? 00:20:09:14 - 00:20:26:09 Speaker 2 Well, this is where I tend to be the most contrary. As a reuse professional whose, you know, company success really hinges on some of these core questions which to say, I don't think like I don't think we're asking the right question all the time, which is to say, I mean, it's the right question, what's it going to take? 00:20:26:11 - 00:20:47:18 Speaker 2 But compared to what is the sort of the challenge that I then give the people who ask it that way? Because, you know, as an example, like let's take Europe and Germany, they have this long standing cultural and infrastructure history of returning glass bottles for like, you know, soda and beers and stuff like that, like almost 100%. And everyone always says, well, they can do it in Germany. 00:20:47:18 - 00:21:01:22 Speaker 2 And I said, Yes, but they don't do it in France and they don't do it in Austria and they don't like. And so if it was so obvious and so easy, why wouldn’t they be doing it in all the neighboring countries? Because it's not so obvious and easy. And so the question is really like, is that a priority for us as a society? 00:21:01:22 - 00:21:18:09 Speaker 2 Not as, you know, not as a CPG, not as a big box retailer, as a society? Are we really going to, through regulation or social pressure or education or whatever else, like commit? And is that the best use of our time and resources? Like we want people to buy solar panels and EVs and all these other things? 00:21:18:11 - 00:21:29:21 Speaker 2 Are we also going to prioritize them switching to from single use to reuse? I think the answer, frankly, is probably not. In most communities globally, it's it's not it's not like. 00:21:29:22 - 00:21:31:16 Speaker 1 I appreciate your realism. 00:21:31:18 - 00:21:52:20 Speaker 2 Well, but you know but I think that should be empowering, right. Like if we start by saying that reuse is not the solution for everything and it shouldn't be like this idea that it's all or nothing, I think we actually create a better roadmap to success because too often what happens today is that companies or communities commit to a reuse project. 00:21:52:22 - 00:22:10:15 Speaker 2 It struggles because you don't get the return rates or it's too expensive or people get frustrated with it and they abandon it. And then you're like set even further back, right? Because then you're like, Well, we tried that reuse thing, it doesn't work. So I think to me there needs to be a lot more grounding in like reuse is not going to be everywhere everything. 00:22:10:17 - 00:22:34:08 Speaker 2 Not, in any event horizon, like no time horizon that I think matters. So what is accomplishable now? Why and how do we use that as a platform like and so starting more with less ambition, but more sort of like foresight and like I think and again, like focus is actually how I think we have more success. 00:22:34:10 - 00:22:52:08 Speaker 2 And really what that means then is like pulling back on reuse for everyone everywhere and instead like find, like I've said, like, you know, retailers have a surprising number of programs and products that already are pretty closely aligned. And when you get narrow, you get success. And when you get success, you get momentum. 00:22:52:10 - 00:23:19:18 Speaker 1 That's like a lesson for business in general. I realize and and something that I find interesting about this conversation is it kind of niche-ifying your approach, right? And really focusing on that. You know what is the addressable market to keep going down that like dorky you know B school Thank you Ross and INSEAD you know conversation but I think what's interesting there Mike you know we're presented by iF Design where I work. 00:23:19:18 - 00:23:38:01 Speaker 1 I mean there's an aspect of this that's also not only in the product design of the packaging that's reusable, but there's actually a huge service design component that seems essential for this all to work. How have you how are you seeing that and how are you kind of approaching that? 00:23:38:03 - 00:23:53:12 Speaker 2 Well, and I think that's an absolutely critical point because at the end of the day, most reuse initiatives that have been put forward are like more expensive and less convenient, but you get the same product, which is not like, Yeah, in a business school, like if you said, I got this great idea, like you'd be shot down real fast, right? 00:23:53:12 - 00:24:23:14 Speaker 2 So I think that's where you know, the service component. How do you create a new experience that is attractive and makes consumers want to maybe spend more or do something that's somewhat less convenient because they get access to something different or exciting. That that has been under utilized tremendously, I think, by a lot of the both the big brands and and the startups, which is that like, I'm going to give you the same product for more money and and worse, experience is not a good sales pitch. 00:24:23:14 - 00:24:49:07 Speaker 2 So I think when you come back to that holistic system concept of it's not just the package itself, it's like, what is my consumer's experience with this entire enterprise and why should they want to maybe pay more or inconvenience themselves in some way? Then, not that that's easy. I'm not like I'm not suggesting they're like, that's so obvious, but it's hard. 00:24:49:07 - 00:24:55:23 Speaker 2 But the flip side is that if you want people to pay more or inconvenience themselves, you better offer them something compelling. 00:24:56:00 - 00:25:19:11 Speaker 1 Which is kind of a full, full service plan of like pick up cleaning, re-use, recycle, repair, replace, like all of those things along kind of this circular ladder, if you will. But the cleaning as well. It's obvious if you're talking about foodstuff or fashion or beauty, like there are aspects of this that like you can't just throw that the better product into packaging into the world, you actually have to maintain it as well. 00:25:19:13 - 00:25:35:03 Speaker 2 That's right. And you have to like, educate people on on, you know, why they should do it and you have to allow them to brag about it because people like bragging about when they're doing better than their neighbors, like give them that tool, you know, make it you know, why does everyone put their brand on a reusable tote bag? 00:25:35:03 - 00:25:53:15 Speaker 2 And it's I don't think brands think that people need more tote bags at this point. They know that people who use tote bags will walk around with the tote bag on their shoulder, with their brand on it to convey superiority or, you know, whatever. Great. Right. Especially doing the behavior that's like good for the planet and also good for the brand. 00:25:53:15 - 00:25:59:07 Speaker 2 Like, fantastic. I mean, why not? Right? But it has to be that mentality for sure. 00:25:59:09 - 00:26:19:01 Speaker 1 It's interesting. Well, we're going to get wrapping up and I have two last questions always. The first is, are there one or two really essential references that you would recommend to our listeners and viewers if they want to learn more about reusable packaging? 00:26:19:03 - 00:26:42:03 Speaker 2 Well, I think on, so I would I would say like on the pilot or like field experience side to see how a lot of brands have worked together to kind of solve some of these core questions. I would definitely go towards like the closed loop partners. They have all these different consortiums of major brands and retailers, reusable cups, reusable tote bags, to go containers, things like that. 00:26:42:03 - 00:26:51:22 Speaker 2 They've done all these projects on a pre competitive basis and just have a ton of resources there where you can learn about consumer thoughts about it and some of the organizational structures and things like that. 00:26:51:22 - 00:26:54:14 Speaker 1 That's closed loop partnership dot org, isn't it? Something like that? 00:26:54:16 - 00:26:56:06 Speaker 2 Something like that. 00:26:56:06 - 00:26:57:09 Speaker 1 I'll post it in the show notes. 00:26:57:15 - 00:27:24:07 Speaker 2 Great. And, and then, you know, I think on the material side, frankly, I think the U.S. Plastics Pact, like as a group I've been involved in and again, it's like every place, every company involved in the plastic supply chain, plastics being such a dominant and challenging material in packaging and a lot of work being done there, that talks a bit more to some of the like structural material opportunities and challenges. 00:27:24:07 - 00:27:25:07 Speaker 2 So you've got... 00:27:25:07 - 00:27:26:06 Speaker 1 The chemical challenges really. 00:27:26:06 - 00:27:46:03 Speaker 2 100% right and you know, like things as basic as like, well, what materials are readily recyclable in most communities and there's plastics pacts all over the world. So it's not just the U.S. one. You know, wherever you are located, you're probably have a plastics pact in your country or community and you can look them up. It's going to be the same core work just local to your to your region. 00:27:46:03 - 00:27:56:24 Speaker 2 And I think that's a great place to learn about some of the material challenges and how companies are thinking about moving between different materials and what is sort of the best option within that infrastructure. 00:27:57:01 - 00:28:17:20 Speaker 1 Thanks for that. Those are great resources. And so we will conclude, Mike, with the final question that I always ask. I mean, I think I'm going to note, I kind of anticipate your answer already, but like if we project 25 years in the future towards 2050, which seems crazy, I mean, what's your greatest hope for the future of reusable packaging? 00:28:17:22 - 00:28:41:04 Speaker 2 Well, yeah, I think it will be a part of our lives, you know, the same way that everyone always talks about, like, why can we go back to the day of the milkman? And I think we will go back to that world, but with more understanding of like, why, not everything came in reusable bottles then either. So I think that we've asked the question the wrong way for the last ten years or so. 00:28:41:06 - 00:28:59:04 Speaker 2 But I think companies and and activists are starting to ask the right questions and we will have it be a part of our lives. It's not going to be everything. I don't and I don't think it should be. But I think we will see it start to become a normalized behavior because of all the work that's being done today. 00:28:59:04 - 00:29:15:09 Speaker 2 And so it'll be a part of the solution and a meaningful part. And but it won't be everything. And I think my hope is that in 25 years, we sort of appreciate why that was a good choice, right, to not try and force it into our lives for everything, but instead to be smart. And I'm confident we'll get there. 00:29:15:11 - 00:29:27:09 Speaker 1 I love that. And to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions and use reliance on virgin materials and all the things that, you know, this brings with it. So I'm with you. I hope I hope I hope we can find the right niche. 00:29:27:11 - 00:29:28:21 Speaker 2 Absolutely. 00:29:28:23 - 00:29:37:10 Speaker 1 Mike Newman of Returnity Innovations, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ, talking about the future of reusable packaging today. 00:29:37:12 - 00:29:38:22 Speaker 2 Thank you for having me. 00:29:38:24 - 00:29:59:23 Speaker 1 And for everyone watching and listening, we appreciate your reviews. Five stars always appreciate it on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your favorite podcasts, be sure to subscribe to YouTube, Instagram and anywhere else, and we'll see you again in two weeks. Thanks for thanks for joining us.