Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Less Noise, More Coherence: Keeping Teachers at the Center of EdTech | Dr. Gene Kerns

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Less Noise, More Coherence: Keeping Teachers at the Center of EdTech | Dr. Gene Kerns · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
0:03
podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
0:15
conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
0:21
and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:41
This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy Mikla, joined
0:43
by co -host David Berner. And we're excited to
0:46
welcome our guest here today. We have Dr. Gene
0:49
Kearns. Gene is the chief academic officer at
0:53
Renaissance. And Gene, welcome to the program.
0:57
Can you help us out, give our listeners a little
0:59
bit of background about who you are? How did
1:01
you get into this EdTech space that we're engaging
1:05
with you here today? Yeah, so as you said, Gene
1:08
Kerns, I'm with Renaissance. I've been here 20
1:09
years before that. I was a teacher. I am a third
1:11
generation educator and we're up to five generations
1:14
in the family. So like biologically, there's
1:17
like some kind of, you know, genetic programming
1:18
that we're going to work in schools. But, you
1:21
know, I think my EdTech journey started really
1:23
early on because my brother -in -law was like
1:25
early to bring computers home. So, you know,
1:27
first computer labs and those were, you know,
1:29
sometimes Atari's. I mean, just like way back
1:32
in the early, early days of the first computers
1:35
coming into school. But I didn't ever dream of
1:38
working for a tech company. I just had so much
1:40
success with Renaissance stuff in my district
1:43
that when they approached me after a while, I
1:45
said, hey, you've done a lot in your district.
1:47
Do you want to come work at the national level
1:48
with us? I'm like, give it a shot. And 20 years
1:52
later, I guess it stuck. Yeah, I, you know, having
1:56
that longevity within your family of so many
1:59
generations is rather unique. Like, seriously,
2:02
is there something in the water there? Oh, I
2:05
mean, it's kind of like, I think it's, you know,
2:06
I think you see some families that kind of follow
2:08
the same professions. I mean, if you, you know,
2:10
I say my sister, now she's 22 years older. So
2:12
I'm the, by far the youngest kid, but you know,
2:15
when you're a kid and you've gone in and it's
2:17
back to school. So you get carted up to the school
2:19
while the teacher sets up the room. It just,
2:21
it gets comfortable. I mean, you, you, you kind
2:23
of envision yourself and it's going to work,
2:25
work there. So we've, we've, we've got some not
2:27
educators in the family, but the educators. grossly
2:30
outnumber the non -educators. The nones, yeah.
2:34
Yeah, they don't get to talk about work at dinner,
2:36
we do. Right, can you just briefly describe for
2:39
us too a little bit about what renaissance is,
2:42
what renaissance does, and then in your particular
2:44
role there too? Yeah, so what's been very cool
2:47
for me is 20 plus years with a company. So I've
2:49
seen it really, really grow. So, you know, if
2:52
I started 20 years ago, I wouldn't say global.
2:54
I would say now we are global in our operations.
2:57
Back in time, we were really focused on just
3:00
practice and reading and math. Now it's practice
3:03
and assessments, probably our largest division.
3:06
In fact, most people don't realize that Renaissance
3:09
actually is the largest provider of interim informative
3:12
assessment tools in the English speaking market.
3:14
When you understand that Star assessment is widely
3:16
used. Fast Bridge is part of our family. We acquired
3:19
a company called GL Education. They work in a
3:22
lot of English speaking schools. British English
3:25
-speaking schools, both in the UK and then globally
3:28
around international schools. So I don't think
3:31
people realize that, that this little company
3:33
that started in Wisconsin in 1986 with one product,
3:37
the Accelerator Reader, is now a global ed tech
3:40
provider, specializing in assessment, practice,
3:45
and instructional supports with our products
3:48
like Nearpod and Flow Capillary. And one of the
3:53
things to with obviously with a lot of the programs
3:56
and things there's always this balance of trying
3:58
to Make sure that you know, the teacher still
4:01
has some autonomy over some of the things that
4:03
they're doing with students and that it's supporting
4:05
both the teacher and the students can you speak
4:07
a little bit to like What what kind of things
4:11
does and you could you could put it in the frame
4:14
of Renaissance if you want or just in general
4:17
having it, you know being an education as well
4:19
your background What kind of things in your opinion
4:23
should technology do for teachers? Like what
4:26
should be its kind of main goal? Well, you know,
4:29
David, this is one that's really important for
4:30
us. So as again, I've been here 20 years. You
4:33
know, I interacted with the founders of the company,
4:35
Terry and Judy Paul, and there's actually a document
4:37
that Terry wrote. more than 30 years ago, that
4:41
actually kind of encapsulates ideas that we still
4:43
use. And one of the things he wrote about is,
4:45
he said, we pledge that our company will only
4:47
produce things that represent the best use of
4:50
technology. With his idea being, we're not just
4:53
going to use tech because it's flashy and it
4:54
seems fun. We've got to guarantee that what we're
4:57
doing with tech is as good as or better. than
5:00
what a human can be and that it doesn't supplant
5:02
something in the process as well. So we are absolutely
5:06
committed to two things that really kind of guide
5:09
what we do. One is the best use of technology.
5:12
The other one is keeping the teacher at the center.
5:15
So we don't... produce things that kind of like
5:17
take over instruction and, you know, do a lot
5:20
of things. Everything that we serve up is presented
5:22
to the teacher as an option. And then the teacher
5:25
gets to decide based on their knowledge of the
5:28
student, which is always going to be more comprehensive
5:31
than any algorithm or single piece of data coming
5:34
off even a myriad of assessments. We are more
5:37
about keeping the teacher at the center. I mean,
5:39
the other phrase we'll use is supporting teachers,
5:42
not supplanting them. Yeah, that's a extremely
5:46
important conversation right now, too, just because
5:48
we are having a lot of EdTech conversations about
5:51
what does proper technology look like or use
5:55
look like in the classroom and how much is too
5:58
much. And there's a lot of data that's being
6:00
brought forth, too, about ineffective versus
6:04
effective use of technology in the classroom.
6:07
One of the things that comes up as a positive
6:10
is the ability to personalize learning. That's
6:13
always been a pretty huge focus, being able to
6:17
help teachers design things in a way that so
6:20
they can get to more students. And even with,
6:23
you know, with AI, obviously that has increased
6:26
even further. And you have that a lot more options
6:29
and capability to do that. Can you talk a little
6:32
bit about how important personalized learning
6:35
is and how Like the Renaissance software helps
6:39
with that Yeah, I mean it and I think we have
6:41
to be really careful with that term personalized
6:43
learning because if you get 40 people You're
6:45
gonna get 40 different definitions of what that
6:47
looks like So I actually I actually prefer like
6:51
learning that is more personalized and what I
6:53
mean by that is We have the same grade level
6:56
expectations that we should be shooting towards
6:58
with kids. They are starting at different points
7:01
So it's more about how do you support the kids
7:03
who are starting in different places to get to
7:05
the expectation you have for all not. letting
7:09
personalized learning like turn it into completely
7:11
different experiences. I mean, we're the adults
7:12
in the room. We know what kids are supposed to
7:14
learn. And, you know, sometimes you got to eat
7:16
your broccoli and that's good for you. You know,
7:18
you got to learn some geometry along the way.
7:20
You got to learn some algebra. These things are
7:22
important. You may not immediately understand
7:23
it when you're, you're an algebra one, but over
7:26
time you'll, you'll understand about math and
7:28
unknowns and those types of things. And you'll
7:30
see it out there in the world. So I get real
7:33
nervous when personalized learning is any kid
7:35
doing anything anywhere. we're more focused in
7:38
on how do we make sure that our systems are aligning
7:42
really well to the great little expectations.
7:45
And more recently, we've done a lot of work to
7:46
align to individual textbook series. So a teacher
7:49
can now tell our system, this is the book that
7:51
I'm using, this is the unit that I am teaching,
7:53
and then everything else that we do will be filtered
7:56
through that lens. So we will present the most
7:59
relevant assessment information for that unit.
8:04
Oh, if you're teaching that unit to these kids,
8:06
Here's what you need to know about where they
8:08
are starting and will offer them the most relevant
8:10
practice opportunities and the most relevant
8:13
instructional material. So, you know, I think
8:15
teachers, you know. I never believed this idea
8:18
that schools were a factory model. I mean, I
8:20
get that we borrowed a lot from factories, but
8:22
you know, the minute a teacher tried to respond
8:24
to a kid's need, whatever it was, the factory
8:26
model was shattered. I mean, the minute that
8:28
a teacher repeated something or helped a kid
8:31
who was hungry get fed or presented in another
8:34
way, machines don't do that. That's what teachers
8:36
do. The challenge, however, is time marches on.
8:41
So teachers are kind of like raging against the
8:43
machine. So it's how do we balance this We have
8:46
expectations, but you know, there's only so much
8:48
time. So we're really focused in on how do we
8:51
help teachers get as quickly as possible to the
8:53
most relevant information, the most relevant
8:56
activities, those things that are going to make
8:57
the biggest difference for their kids in the
8:59
shortest amount of time. So, Gene, when I was
9:03
in the classroom, which was I actually I just
9:06
realized. today that I've been at my current
9:09
position now for five years and you know so I've
9:13
been out of the classroom for that long and but
9:14
it still seems close enough connected that I
9:18
feel like I could still draw experiences from
9:20
that time. Right, you know, my brain is still
9:24
all there and, you know, and wanting to help
9:26
kids and teachers the best that I can. But one
9:29
of the experiences I remember and, you know,
9:31
being an instructional technology coach in the
9:34
district that I was also teaching in meant that
9:37
I was always, you know, like I felt like it was
9:40
part of my job to constantly present new to new
9:42
tools to teachers or new ways of doing things.
9:46
and not really considering that maybe at the
9:49
time what I was really doing was creating more
9:53
work for teachers because they were trying to
9:55
learn all of these different tools and platforms
9:57
and things. And several of them were very disconnected
10:00
and they were maybe just single use things. What
10:05
sort of impact do you think that that has on,
10:07
or how do you try to find balance maybe within
10:10
there about presenting new ideas and new things
10:14
to teachers? at the same time not increasing
10:17
their workload and not preventing them from doing
10:20
what's really important, which is, you know,
10:22
connecting with kids and building great learning
10:25
experiences. Yeah, I think now, you know, the
10:27
connecting with kids and great learning experience,
10:29
there's a human element that goes beyond technology.
10:31
But let's just let's just focus on the technology
10:34
piece. I think a lot of your question is answered
10:36
when you look at the conversations now that are
10:38
sort of really trending upwards around instructional
10:42
coherence. Like, you know, we've all built these
10:44
systems, you know, we have the different parts,
10:46
the different we have to have a tier one and
10:48
we need some interventions and we we need assessments
10:50
because we have requirements around that. We
10:52
might need a social emotional. We've got all
10:54
these things. We buy all these individual parts.
10:57
The question is, how well do those parts fit
11:00
together? I mean, do they make a unified whole?
11:03
So to your point, some new application comes
11:05
out. Is it something that then connects in like
11:08
hand and glove and it kind of does something
11:10
that could not be done before and it's highly
11:12
coherent, or is it doing something random? So
11:16
one of the things we're doing with our new Renaissance
11:18
intelligence system and even within our star
11:20
assessments is, and I alluded to this before,
11:23
The ability for the user to say I'm using this
11:25
particular book in this particular. I'm on this
11:28
particular unit that allows us to filter out
11:29
a lot of the noise so you know historically the
11:32
schools give assessments and every major assessment
11:34
out there produces an instructional planning
11:36
report. Here's all the skills within range of
11:38
your kid. Here's the problem if that assessment
11:41
doesn't know what unit you're on. in what book.
11:45
The best it can do is just present a broad list
11:49
of all skills. But if it knows what unit you're
11:52
teaching in what book, then you can say, well,
11:54
here's the assessment information relevant to
11:56
this unit. You've got all these activities that
11:59
kids could do that are very much constantly driven
12:01
by EdTech solutions. Are those activities that
12:05
are anyway related to what's going on with the
12:07
current grade level unit? If they are, then great.
12:09
That's highly coherent. Okay, we're giving kids
12:11
extension opportunities to continue to work on
12:13
the topics that we're doing in the classroom.
12:16
But if they're completely unrelated to the unit
12:19
that's being taught, that might not be the wisest
12:22
kind of thing. I mean, you know, I use this idea
12:24
of like systems. Schools buy the parts. They
12:27
always buy the parts. We do that. We got to cover.
12:29
We bought the parts. But it's kind of like saying
12:31
I bought a screw and I bought a screwdriver.
12:33
I didn't consider that the screwdriver was Phillips
12:36
and the screw was a flathead because just because
12:38
you got the parts doesn't mean that your parts
12:40
work together. So there's more and more conversations
12:43
now about making sure that the various parts
12:46
that we bring in, that they all work together
12:48
in highly coherent ways. And the same thing would
12:53
work from the data that you collect from the
12:55
assessments that you're giving if it's all disconnected.
12:59
and fragmented and you know you've got like you
13:02
said the the flab head screwdriver and the philip
13:05
screw that's the same thing could happen with
13:07
data that you're collecting from various assessments
13:09
right and so if you collect fragmented data are
13:12
you then getting you know and the teachers still
13:15
look at that data but does it lead to fragmented
13:19
instruction where they're you know it feels like
13:22
they're hopping all over the place rather than
13:24
heading in a in a in a direction to improve learning
13:27
Well there there's two things there i mean what
13:29
is is all the data coming to like one place are
13:32
we losing information so we do a lot with like
13:35
our education or platform of bringing all the
13:37
data together because sometimes you'll find some
13:40
interesting trends like oh my goodness. This
13:42
student is always absent on a certain part of
13:46
the day on a certain day of the week well something's
13:48
driving that that's not random i mean there is
13:51
some life issue. that is causing this kid to
13:54
be out of the building every Wednesday afternoon.
13:56
And as a result, their grades are down. And if
13:59
you can figure out what that issue is and help
14:00
them address that, well, then grades are going
14:02
to come up. But you wouldn't know that if you
14:04
didn't have all of that data searchable together.
14:08
But the other thing is, if we're not careful,
14:11
being data driven. doesn't necessarily help if
14:15
the data that we're getting back is noise. And
14:18
that's why I tried to make this comparison of
14:20
saying, yeah, I can have a broad instructional
14:22
planning report that tells me all possible skills.
14:24
But if I'm teaching a unit on geometry, I need
14:27
information about the skills related to geometry,
14:29
not statistics, not probability. I need information
14:34
that helps me help my kids be successful with
14:36
this grade level geometry unit first and foremost.
14:39
And sometimes we get so much information. There's
14:43
there's no shortage anymore. And sometimes some
14:45
of that information isn't truly information from
14:48
a systems perspective. People refer to it as
14:52
being noise. It's that's not helpful information.
14:55
It's interfering with my ability to have clarity
14:57
about what I should do with this with a student.
15:00
So what did I like? What could it? district what
15:03
could uh maybe even down to the classroom do
15:06
if if they're they're having trouble sorting
15:09
out the noise from the the quality stuff like
15:12
what what can they do to really get to the heart
15:15
of what's going to lead to successful improvement
15:17
Well, I think it really is driven. There's some
15:19
great reports out there around coherence TNTP,
15:22
which is formerly the new teacher project. They
15:24
were in a bunch of papers that are there. The
15:26
council of chief state school officers put out
15:28
a paper in January that was titled instructional
15:31
coherence at the state level. And of course,
15:33
you know, that's likely to filter down to the
15:35
more more local things there. But I think when
15:37
people start reading about that, they kind of
15:39
begin this conversation of, wow, do the parts
15:42
really? fit together or not? Like, do we have
15:45
a tier two program that is completely separate
15:47
from our tier one program and a tier three program
15:49
that's something else? In fact, one school system,
15:53
Knox County Schools in Tennessee, actually, they
15:56
tested out like, like, what would be more effective
15:58
with kids in intervention, they started studying
16:00
coherence. And so what they did was They took
16:04
their kids who were in intervention and kind
16:06
of split them into two groups. Half the kids
16:08
just got what they'd always done, which was we
16:10
have a tier one, we have a tier two, we have
16:11
a tier three. We've built these things. They're
16:13
part of our system. They may not be completely
16:15
connected, but they're part of the system. The
16:17
other half of the kids, they decided, let's do
16:19
something highly coherent. Let's make sure that
16:21
every part of the intervention experience linked
16:23
directly back to what was going on in the classroom
16:25
right now, that unit. So if you're the intervention
16:27
teacher serving. my students, you've got to know
16:30
what I'm teaching right now to make sure that
16:31
everything that you do in intervention supports
16:33
them in what's going on in the classroom right
16:36
now. What they found was the kids that were in
16:39
that highly coherent intervention grew more,
16:41
on average 1 .3 months of additional growth on
16:45
top of the growth rates that have been achieved
16:49
at the base level, just in interventions overall.
16:52
So, you know, in some ways less work for teachers
16:55
because it's just being drawn out of the core.
16:57
But here's what I love about it. Let's say that
16:59
you're the intervention serving, you know, serving
17:01
my classroom and David's a student of mine. If
17:04
he's coming to you. and you're talking about
17:07
things that relate to exactly what I'm doing,
17:08
it's more likely that as he makes his way back
17:11
and forth between the two of us, it's going to
17:13
all start fitting together. So you support him
17:16
on some prerequisite skill that he needs to be
17:18
successful with the unit that I'm teaching. And
17:20
so he comes into my room and I start working
17:22
on something. He says, wait a minute, we were
17:24
just talking about this in the other room. And
17:27
I think for the students, that's where it starts
17:30
to build their confidence. They can feel like,
17:32
wow, it's finally starting to fit together because
17:34
when schools have incoherent systems, when the
17:37
parts don't fit together, our kids who have the
17:40
most needs are the most exposed to that because
17:44
they're the ones that go into all those additional
17:46
programs. And so if those parts are not designed
17:50
or thoughtfully put together, this sad irony
17:53
is our kids who need the most support. are getting
17:57
the most burden because they're cognitively shifting
18:00
between all these different settings. Wait a
18:02
minute, I'm doing a unit on geometry in more
18:04
core classroom, but my intervention teacher is
18:06
talking with me about probability and I'm shifting
18:10
between these and that's very confusing and very
18:12
difficult. So in that example, what is needed
18:17
for those teachers, the interventionist and the
18:20
classroom teacher to get on the same page? Is
18:22
it just a common prep? or team time, or are there
18:26
ways to do that too? Here's an interesting one
18:28
for administrators on the line. I read this one
18:30
report that says, you know, when it comes to
18:32
coherence, teachers can't do this on their own.
18:34
Like they're going to need your help. Like they
18:35
don't control all the levers that have to be
18:38
pulled for this to happen. So there are documents
18:42
from United States Department of Education that
18:44
talk about the need for there to be some joint
18:47
planning time. I think in some ways that can
18:50
be minimalized because you know what, most districts
18:52
have their pacing guides in place. Like they're
18:55
pretty clear. about what's going to be taught
18:58
when. So it shouldn't require in -person meeting
19:03
after in -person meeting after in -person meeting
19:04
for the interventionist to know what the classroom
19:06
teacher is doing. I think it's more about some
19:08
documents and some resources. And then a touch
19:10
base every now and then to kind of just talk
19:13
about, hey, here's what I've learned about this
19:15
student. This is going well. This is not going
19:17
well. Do you have any insights for me? But I
19:20
think, you know, given the fact that most people
19:22
have, I mean, they have their textbook series,
19:24
they have their pacing guides. It's not a mystery,
19:27
but we've historically had more of a remediation
19:31
mindset. And that is, well, we'll just meet the
19:34
kid where they are and we'll work to grow them
19:35
from there. We'll find what the next step is
19:39
for them. And all of this is saying, well, yes,
19:42
but you've got to know what they're working on
19:44
to the current grade level thing. So don't just
19:45
randomly review everything with them. review
19:48
with them what they need to be successful at
19:50
the grade level unit. If you're doing that it's
19:53
parts are going to fit together better for kids
19:55
and I think that that piece is the more that
19:58
we're coherent the more kids will move between
20:00
those settings and find themselves gaining in
20:03
their own confidence because the parts are fitting
20:06
together but we just don't serve up the parts
20:07
that fit together at the same time let's serve
20:10
up the parts that fit together at the same time
20:12
and let's get kids excited when those parts for
20:14
them start falling into place and it starts making
20:17
sense to them so jean i'm gonna try to give you
20:21
like two different Scenarios here. I guess one
20:25
is like so say you have a school that doesn't
20:29
have any any of your tools, right? What is the
20:32
starting point for them to because I know you've
20:34
already brought up instructional coherence? But
20:36
what is the starting point for let's say you
20:39
start working with this school that doesn't have
20:41
any of the your platforms? In use, where do you
20:45
start with that school at? Do I get to sell them
20:48
something or just have to start before they have?
20:51
Yeah, you get to provide whatever way you want
20:55
to take it. Yeah. Well, if they don't have an
20:57
air stuff, I think it starts with just like an
21:00
honest unit. I mean, audit, excuse me. Let's
21:03
lay all the parts out and let's start having
21:04
conversations about whether these things are
21:06
designed or whether we've built any bridges between
21:09
them so that they can potentially work together.
21:11
For us, it could start in multiple places. A
21:14
lot of our customers start on the assessment
21:16
side. They've had us in their school because
21:20
they needed to screen or progress monitor for
21:24
MTSS or they needed screening for characteristics
21:27
of dyslexia or other requirements here. But here's
21:30
what happens when you're an assessment provider.
21:32
The minute the assessment is over and you give
21:34
those scores, every teacher, every teacher worth
21:36
their salt will say, what's next? Okay, you've
21:38
told me, you've told me these kids need these
21:41
skills. How do I do that? Like, what do you have?
21:44
Do you have a lesson plan? Do you have an activity?
21:46
Do you have a resource? And that's where we're
21:49
getting really excited in just connecting these
21:51
things. So for example, a couple of years ago,
21:54
Nearpod, which is a massive collection of instructional
21:57
resources became part of the Renaissance family.
21:59
And that was a purposeful acquisition because
22:02
we had the assessment piece and we wanted a better
22:04
answer to what's. Next, Freckle is one of our
22:08
practice applications. So, you know, you can
22:10
say to a teacher, OK, time out. If you're teaching
22:12
this unit and this kid needs more practice on
22:14
the skills, here they are in this program. Just
22:17
click here to assign them. And then the magic
22:21
sauce is getting those things all to fit together
22:23
in very nice, seamless ways so that for a teacher,
22:26
it's super easy. And that's our our new Renaissance
22:29
intelligence interface where they don't even
22:31
see individual applications. They see all of
22:33
these things integrated together. presented to
22:36
them through the lens of you simply tell me what
22:38
unit you're doing and what book and then I'll
22:40
just organize everything for you through that
22:43
lens and with that perspective. So then I guess
22:46
it might be the case that it's a similar answer
22:50
but like the other scenario I was thinking of
22:52
is let's say you have a school that does have
22:54
some some of your platforms one or more and then
23:00
they've got where There has been some use, but
23:03
because of like school leader turnover and different
23:06
things like that, there hasn't really been any
23:07
follow through. Where do you start with a school
23:09
like that who has some things in place, but just
23:11
isn't really sure how to like kick the thing
23:13
in gear? Yeah, let's hit two things there. One
23:16
is we really begin to change our interfaces for
23:19
multiple product users. So about two years ago,
23:22
we released a new interface called Renaissance
23:24
Next. That's the default interplace for STAR
23:27
and the interface for people that have multiple
23:29
products so that they can see, oh, yes, when
23:32
the assessment recommended something, it will
23:35
index it for them and say, well, over in Freckle,
23:37
they could do this. Over in Nearpod, they could
23:39
do that. With our new Renaissance Intelligence
23:41
interface, the walls just go down. You basically
23:43
get all the resources put together. So for a
23:48
school that's in that situation, part of it is
23:50
understanding these new interfaces. Another part
23:54
of it is just like simply training. We've done
23:56
a number of studies and we're actually one of
23:59
the, at least last time I checked, the only K
24:02
-12 education provider that is a certified partner
24:07
with the ROI or the Return on Investment Institute.
24:10
So they've blessed our methodology for a series
24:12
of studies that basically say, what's the return
24:14
on investment for the money you invest in one
24:17
of our products? If you pay a dollar for it,
24:19
do you get a dollars worth of benefit back measured
24:22
in a variety of ways. Here's what we found. Even
24:25
one hour of remote training, just a little bit
24:28
of training and support, often could make really
24:31
sizable shifts in that return that schools get
24:36
on their investment. Sometimes there's EdTech
24:38
products that schools have bought and you will
24:40
find shockingly like massive numbers of teachers
24:43
don't even know how to log into them. They don't
24:45
even know that they are there. So you go in just
24:48
do the first you know, a couple of hours of training
24:50
and all of a sudden your metrics around that
24:53
change radically. And then, you know, we've alluded
24:56
to this earlier on, you know, these whole conversations
24:58
about, you know, appropriate use of technology
25:01
and what kids are doing online we've got to be
25:04
able to show that when kids are spending time
25:06
it is time that produces results that there is
25:09
efficacy and again we're very much committed
25:12
to making sure that everything that a kid is
25:14
doing online for us needs to be done online because
25:16
it's doing something better than it you know
25:18
could be done otherwise and It's related to what's
25:21
going on in the classroom and the teacher is
25:23
overseeing what's going. We have no algorithms
25:25
that like automatically assign pathways and work
25:28
for kids. The teachers aren't. part of. Those
25:33
things scare me. That's just always been a philosophical
25:35
thing for me. I didn't like the computer lab
25:38
that the teachers went to with the kids and the
25:41
kids logged on to a system and the teacher came
25:42
back 45 minutes later and picked them up. And
25:44
if you ask the teacher what the kids were doing,
25:46
I don't know, they did the program, but I don't
25:48
really know what they were doing. Those things
25:49
just don't feel right to me. I'm more about supporting
25:53
people so that they're involved in the process.
25:55
And I think as teachers, that's what we want.
25:58
But it's got to be manageable and easy. And we've
26:01
taken some huge steps forward in making just
26:05
the interface and the way the teachers do their
26:07
work daily. Something that is just so easy and
26:10
intuitive to use that when they see it, they
26:11
go, Oh yeah, I can do that. Right. Which is one
26:14
of the biggest barriers. Cause it's like, if
26:16
you don't have a, a system that is like user
26:19
friendly and it's, you know, low, low barrier,
26:22
entry barrier. It's like, um, you kind of. get
26:26
overwhelmed right away by some of the things
26:27
that are found there. So that's that's really
26:29
important. I wanted to just quickly. One other
26:32
question is in the Renaissance blog about that
26:36
you did about instructional coherence, because
26:38
I think you've already kind of addressed like
26:40
why coherence is important, you know, so that
26:43
you can be more successful. But one of the things
26:46
you mentioned in there is textbook. alignment
26:49
um and why why is that piece important because
26:53
i think you had mentioned in there something
26:54
about like how a lot of times teachers can abandon
26:59
their standards a little bit but the textbook
27:01
is still used so can you like you speak a little
27:04
bit to that and why um that piece of it's important
27:06
yeah so what uh and you know a podcast is not
27:10
the best place to to like put images but like
27:12
imagine this Imagine like a dashboard with all
27:15
these like compasses, and I think that's what
27:17
teachers are driven by. So they've got their
27:19
standards. That's one of the dials. They've got
27:21
their curriculum. That's another dial. They've
27:23
got the assessment they use. That's another dial.
27:25
If they're using a practice product like Freckle
27:27
or IXL or Alex, that's another dial. If a kid's
27:30
an intervention, that's even more dials on the
27:32
dashboard. Here's the problem. Often for teachers,
27:36
those dials like no two of them point in exactly
27:38
the same direction. They may point kind of in
27:40
a general direction, but most teachers, if you
27:42
ask them, they'll say, Well, my standards say
27:44
this. My textbook says this. I got information
27:47
off an assessment. It says that I kind of put
27:49
it all together and kind of like make a path
27:51
from there. Here's what we have to acknowledge.
27:54
The textbooks among all of those dials, they
27:57
probably exert the most power. And that's why
27:59
I alluded to earlier that teachers don't look
28:01
at the standards every day, but they look at
28:02
their textbooks every day. Like that's, that
28:04
is going to decide in most classrooms. What are
28:07
we going to do tomorrow? I mean, I have a pacing
28:09
guide. I have to follow that. What that then
28:11
means is for a company like Renaissance and the
28:14
other companies that fill that space, we are
28:16
supplemental providers. Now we don't like that
28:19
word because supplemental means like extra, and
28:21
like assessments really important. and practice
28:22
is really important, we get it. But the whole
28:25
point is we should supplement the process. So
28:29
if the textbook is so powerful that it can support
28:32
the standards, then we have a decision to make.
28:34
Do we align with or do we not align to it? Do
28:37
we consider the pacing guide? Do we consider
28:39
the units or do we not do that? And what we've
28:43
come to is the point of saying that to not do
28:45
that would be a gross mistake. because this entity
28:51
is going to guide much of what's going on in
28:53
the classroom. So again, through our interfaces,
28:56
tell us what book you're using, tell us what
28:58
unit you're on, and we will refilter everything
29:01
in the Renaissance ecosystem. to serve up for
29:04
you the most relevant information from our assessment,
29:07
the most relevant activities within our practice
29:09
tools, and the most relevant instructional resources
29:12
within our tools like Nearpod and Flow Capillary.
29:16
And you don't have to go look for them. And what's
29:18
exciting about doing this is we were presenting
29:21
it to some administrators, and we showed it one
29:23
time. And one teacher, one guy said, you know
29:25
what? there are teachers of mine that could have
29:27
done this like they understood the parts they
29:29
knew how to put them all together they could
29:30
have done this but they ran out of time they
29:32
didn't have enough time and now you're just serving
29:33
up all the stuff for them automatically he's
29:36
like they're gonna love it he's like but the
29:37
other thing is there's a lot of teachers who
29:39
would have struggled to do that if they're new
29:41
to the field or new to the setting or they haven't
29:43
used that product before they don't know how
29:45
to integrate all this now with the new renaissance
29:48
next interface i don't have to go look for anything
29:50
i tell it what unit And I tell it what book and
29:52
bam, all my kids are grouped. These are kids
29:54
ready for it. These are kids will struggle with
29:56
it. These are kids that are going to go through
29:58
it very quickly. Here's resources to serve all
30:00
three groups. Click here to assign it. Click
30:03
here to I mean, it's all right there in one place.
30:07
What we want to do is just like fundamentally
30:09
change the daily planning that teachers are doing
30:11
and make it easier because again, teachers want
30:14
to respond to kids. They want to desperately.
30:17
But the bell rang and I had to be on hall duty
30:20
and I only got 45 minutes of planning. And so
30:22
if you can help them do more efficient planning,
30:26
they will do more for kids. And our belief is
30:29
the only way that's gonna happen is if you acknowledge
30:31
the primacy of the role of those textbooks and
30:34
you build it into your system. And so that's
30:36
what we've been working on. And it's a big piece
30:38
and it's growing. We have a number of textbook
30:40
partners and with every passing day we're getting
30:43
more. Are you starting to see too though, you
30:47
know, and I'm thinking of the teacher who maybe
30:51
for whatever reason, maybe it's a budgetary,
30:53
you know, restraints that they're not able to
30:55
purchase the textbooks that they need. But instead,
30:57
you know, the teachers are going, they're finding
30:59
their open educational resources and, you know,
31:02
now they've been exposed to, you know, like notebook
31:06
LN or Gemini notebook as it's called now, right?
31:09
Where they can dump their sources in there and
31:11
they can now have AI help them create a more
31:16
coherent, organized, you know, that then becomes
31:19
their textbook of sources that they then, you
31:21
know, share out with their kids. Are you starting
31:24
to see some more of that too? I think there's
31:27
some instances of that. And, you know, in this
31:29
first wave, what we've been doing is doing the
31:31
alignments and the partnerships because that's,
31:33
I mean, that represents the majority. of the
31:35
experiences that kids and teachers are having.
31:37
We are going to build within our interface the
31:40
ability for someone to put in their own scope
31:41
and sequence. So if they're committed to, you
31:44
know, we don't use a textbook per se, but we
31:47
have a curriculum, and these are the skills that
31:49
we're going to teach in these orders. We will
31:51
have, possibly for next year, maybe a little
31:54
bit beyond that. That is on the roadmap. We will
31:56
have that in there. That's an interesting one
31:58
and a challenging one. I mean, to me, Jeremy,
32:01
it's not unlike the whole open educational resources
32:05
conversation of five years ago you know because
32:08
it was like I don't need a textbook anymore I
32:09
just get all this stuff online and I think it
32:13
works for some and I think it works in some specialized
32:15
programs I do have some concerns so there was
32:17
a And that's just based on, and I don't mean
32:20
to make a formal statement here, but we had a
32:23
superintendent who was an advisory board for
32:24
ours and his district like went whole in on that.
32:28
And then some kids saw some lessons that had
32:31
some problems and had some errors. And then all
32:33
of a sudden the school board's asking. And not
32:36
that that doesn't ever happen with a textbook,
32:38
but sometimes those resources have gone through
32:41
far more vetting than some of the other resources
32:44
there. But I think. Either way, whether someone's
32:48
using a textbook or doing something that they've
32:50
created on their own, we will have the ability
32:53
in the not too distant future for them to interface
32:56
with our stuff, whatever way. That's the, we
32:59
want to be the supplemental provider that actually
33:00
supplements. I mean, that does so well. That
33:03
brings in additional information, not noise.
33:05
That brings in extensions to what they're doing,
33:08
not distractions from. what they should be doing.
33:13
So we want to be the supplemental provider, the
33:15
truly supplements. And to do that means that
33:18
you have to bring into your world of consideration
33:20
of exactly what are they doing, whether that's
33:22
a textbook or something else. If you've just
33:24
got your own scope and sequence and it's, you
33:26
know, we say alignment, you know, our skill 23
33:29
is your skill 3 .2 .B. Look, we have a spreadsheet
33:32
that shows you that that doesn't that doesn't
33:35
make teachers days coherent. But when systems
33:38
reinvent themselves, based on the reality that
33:41
you're telling us, this is how we do it here.
33:43
Okay, that does make the day more coherent. You
33:49
touched a little bit on this, but I just want
33:51
to bring the attention more focused on it. Your
33:55
Renaissance AI, how are you intentionally integrating
34:00
AI into your systems so that they are more usable
34:04
and friendly for teachers? Yeah, a lot of that
34:07
is sort of underneath the surface behind the
34:09
scenes. So we really have three forms that AI
34:12
is taking. One is just AI teacher tools, and
34:14
those are going to be what a lot of people see.
34:16
So the ability to create a lesson plan or to
34:19
take a text and level it or to generate a quiz
34:21
or questions. And in that sense. That one portion
34:24
of our work is not unlike work that some other
34:28
groups have done. Now it's baked into our system,
34:30
and I think it's got some great functionalities,
34:32
but it's kind of like what they're doing. The
34:35
other two pieces are our alignment engine and
34:37
our learning engine. So for nearly 20 years,
34:41
we've been building custom learning progressions
34:43
for every state. So we take the standards, we
34:45
unpack them, we know the skills in them, we know
34:47
the prerequisites. When a kid has a assessment
34:50
score of X and you're about to do unit number
34:53
Y, if their performance level is below where
34:56
they need to be, we can tell you exactly what
34:58
skills are in between where that kid is and where
35:00
they need to be. So yeah, I mean, here's an easy
35:03
example. If you're going to do that third grade
35:06
unit on area, multiplying length times width,
35:10
and you have a kid that doesn't No multiplication.
35:12
You're gonna have to see it's multiplication.
35:13
Like that's part of getting there. But you know,
35:16
for whatever the skill is at whatever level,
35:18
we have all this information and learning progressions.
35:20
But again, teachers would have had to assorted
35:22
through that on their own. They could find a
35:24
prerequisite skills. It took hours to do that.
35:27
AI can do that really easily. So bam are basically
35:30
our learning engine says, I know. where the kid
35:33
is based on assessment data, I know your standards,
35:37
I know the skills, and I'll build a pathway.
35:39
Like you tell me what you're about to do, I will
35:41
build a pathway for every kid and bam, the minute
35:44
the teacher logs in, the pathway will be there.
35:45
So that's the learning engine. Then the alignment
35:47
engine says, okay, and if those are the skills
35:50
that the kid needs to learn to progress from
35:53
point A to point B to point C to point D, which
35:56
is where they need to be, I'll serve up for you
35:59
all the resources that Renaissance has or the
36:01
partner has. textbook companies that are partnering
36:04
with us, and that's a growing list. For those
36:09
that are partners with us, we will point to their
36:12
resources as well. So, you know, I'll just randomly,
36:16
Envisions is one of our partners, you know, so
36:18
a kid took a star test, and for star math, we
36:21
could point to Envisions resources and say, if
36:24
that's the skill you're working with this kid,
36:25
here's a resource that you can use. So, teacher
36:27
tools, which are, you know, very common. kinds
36:30
of things that people are seeing with AI, but
36:32
then behind the scenes, this whole learning engine
36:34
that is mapping the pathways that kids need to
36:37
follow to be successful. And this whole alignment
36:40
engine that is serving all possible resources
36:43
and saying, if those are the skills you're going
36:45
to work on with kids, here are resources that
36:48
will help you navigate that step by step by step
36:50
with them. You know, we've had these libraries,
36:52
we've had these lessons, these things were all
36:54
over, but the AI is indexing them and serving
36:57
them. serving them up as options to teachers
37:01
as they decide exactly what path they want to
37:03
take kids along. So teachers can really view
37:07
it as an efficiency tool but also a tool that's
37:11
just going to help them better connect the dots
37:13
to provide the best experience that they can
37:14
in the classroom. Remember we don't auto assign
37:16
everything. Everything is the teacher at the
37:18
center. So we're going to serve up the option.
37:20
I view it as like my always on, never tired,
37:24
24 -7 digital teaching assistant. Like, it'll
37:28
write the lesson plan, it will find the resources,
37:30
it will make all kinds of recommendations for
37:32
me, and then I as a teacher get to make the final
37:35
decision on, okay, within these options, these
37:38
are the ones that I want to use with these individual
37:40
students or groups or classes, whatever level
37:42
you want to take it to, we can support that.
37:46
And then I think part of that too then comes
37:48
back to You know, teachers are feeling this push
37:53
of the amount of screen time that kids are facing.
37:55
But if you can show them that if they need to
37:57
use this piece of technology, whatever it happens
38:00
to be, to reinforce their learning, and it's
38:03
going to do it in a way better than any other
38:05
instruction I can provide, that's really what
38:09
we're looking for is the quality over the quantity
38:11
here. And I'm showing you the quality of the
38:13
amount of educational investment we're putting
38:16
into it. Yeah and that whole screen time thing
38:19
is interesting because I mean really what people
38:20
are concerned about is is one social media. I
38:23
mean like like I don't want a kid like you know
38:24
spending all day on Instagram but I think there's
38:26
also this concern about the programs that do
38:29
what I was alluding to when I say that don't
38:31
reflect the best usage or not, the things that
38:33
just take over and kids do a bunch of stuff and
38:35
we don't know what's going on there. If you look
38:38
at what many states are doing, they're saying,
38:40
okay, we may have a screen time limit, but we're
38:43
going to exclude some of the following things.
38:45
We're gonna exclude assessment time because we
38:47
have to assess kids. There's some requirements
38:49
there. Another big area and this is the main
38:51
point is they will say, we will exclude from
38:54
the time limits. Technology that is teacher directed.
38:59
Like things that kids are doing online that teachers
39:02
have complete knowledge of and control of that
39:05
they have assigned that they're going to be part
39:07
of that they're going to be mediating and that
39:10
represents a whole lot of what we do like we
39:12
we are we shy away from those algorithms that
39:15
take over and kids spend a lot of time without
39:17
a teacher so. teacher directed kind of stuff,
39:21
which I think, again, is far less concerning
39:24
to people than, well, my kid logged on to program
39:27
X, and they spent 45 minutes over there, and
39:30
they either liked it or didn't like it, and the
39:32
teacher did or did not know what was going on.
39:34
That's where people get real nervous, I think,
39:37
about screen time. And that's why we're finding
39:39
ourselves in the situation where we are. And
39:42
I think in this in the situation, too, where
39:45
A student gets a reward because they finished
39:48
something early. Oh, well, why don't you just
39:49
go play on your screen over there? You know?
39:52
Yeah. And then then that's the stories that come
39:54
back that it's not being used in an educationally
39:57
sound way. Yeah. Yeah. It's the pendulum swung.
40:00
It's swinging. We've got to get back in the middle.
40:03
They only work in clocks, but we'll go through
40:05
the swing and we'll get back to more balanced
40:07
world. All right, Gene. Well, we appreciate everything
40:10
that you provided is information what you're
40:13
working on and with Renaissance We want to go
40:16
into our lightning round here just to get I've
40:19
heard about your lightning rounds. I hope I'm
40:21
ready Yeah, so we have the lightning round questions
40:25
Some of them are you know, maybe are gonna connect
40:27
to what we've been talking about a little bit
40:30
But we also like to add in personal ones as well
40:33
to get to know our guests. All right, I'm prepared
40:36
So Jeremy's kicking it off here. Okay. Yeah.
40:39
So, Gene, what's a book or a show that you're
40:41
into right now that isn't an education related
40:44
that you go to when you're getting away from
40:46
the space that you work in? We are making our
40:49
way through right now your friends and neighbors.
40:51
So that's kind of been like the most recent show
40:53
and then like everything that Taylor Sheridan
40:55
does. We just watched like season was a season
40:58
three episode one of Lioness. So that's the one
41:00
we just kicked off there. So how that man writes
41:03
all the things he writes at the rate that he
41:05
does it. I do not know, but good lord, he's got
41:08
to be making some money. All right, next one.
41:12
What's a question that a school leader should
41:14
ask of a vendor before purchasing or adopting
41:18
an EdTech tool? Yeah, efficacy research. And
41:21
again, we present a lot of that through the lens
41:23
of ROI. If I'm going to spend a dollar with you,
41:26
am I going to get a dollar or more back? And
41:29
there are ways to quantify that. we need to know
41:33
that the investments that we're making. Because
41:35
you know what, there's always going to be more
41:37
needs than we have time or money in the bank.
41:40
We got to make sure that every play we make is
41:43
getting the return. So ask about that stuff.
41:47
So Gene, you're taking a trip to a theme park,
41:49
maybe like a Disney park or something along those
41:52
lines. Do you map out a plan to maximize your
41:55
efficient use of park time? Or do you just go
41:58
with the flow and what looks good and head that
42:00
direction? Well, that's an interesting one for
42:02
me, because I usually am a planner. Now, if you
42:04
said we're mapping a vacation, it's going to
42:06
be multiple days. I will map the heck out of
42:08
it. Like I will. And that's that can be a bad
42:10
thing. But I am I am a planner for something
42:13
like that. I've never felt complain to help to
42:16
plan a park. I mean, it might be like there's
42:18
a certain show we need to be out at two o 'clock.
42:21
But outside of that, I'll just walk and see how
42:23
the lines are and go from there. So theme parks,
42:25
I guess I drop my planning hat and just kind
42:27
of go with them a little bit more. All right,
42:31
next one is what is something that people would
42:34
be surprised to know about you? Oh I'm an ordained
42:39
minister And if you've ever watched friends you
42:42
think about like Joey getting ordained for 2495
42:45
online to perform a wedding that's pretty close
42:47
to my experience my My now sister -in -law and
42:50
brother -in -law were getting married and his
42:52
sister is a minister. So it would have been like
42:55
Everybody's like, oh, Megan's gonna marry you
42:57
all. Well, they wanted her to just like be off
42:59
duty that day, just be part of the bridesmaids.
43:03
So like, well, someone else has got to marry
43:04
us. So somehow my sister -in -law got this idea
43:07
that I'd get ordained and I'd do their wedding.
43:10
And what she overlooked was that... Yes, the
43:12
ordination is good in 48 states, but New York
43:15
City requires more. So I had to go to the marriage
43:17
office in downtown New York to sign this book.
43:21
I'll tell you, if you've ever got like just even
43:23
half an hour to kill extra time in New York,
43:25
if you go to the marriage office, it's the coolest
43:28
thing ever, because there are people that are
43:29
dressed up. They're in their tuxedos. They're
43:31
people in sweats. And they are every age and
43:34
shape and size. Some are getting their marriage
43:36
license. Some are having the judge marry them.
43:39
I'd like the best people watching in the world
43:43
occurs in New York City's marriage office. And
43:46
I am registered in the big books, 48 states and
43:49
the city of New York. I got you covered. Well,
43:53
perfect. If my wife and I ever decide to renew
43:55
our vows, I'm going to call you up and maybe
43:58
meet you in New York City. Okay, so let's say
44:03
David and I are having a conference tomorrow
44:05
and you're gonna be our keynote speaker and we
44:07
want to make sure that the crowd is all pumped
44:09
up and ready for you to walk out on that stage.
44:11
What's gonna be your walk -up song? Oh, you know,
44:15
they asked me that sometimes for our big sales
44:17
kickoff what I'm gonna walk up to. I think right
44:19
now I'd do the future so bright, you know, that
44:21
once futures are bright, I gotta wear shades.
44:24
Yeah, I'm really excited about where we are.
44:25
I've been running since for 20 years and like
44:27
what we're what we're doing right now is some
44:30
of the most exciting work. I mean we are really
44:32
bringing things together in incredibly intuitive
44:35
and easy ways and the ultimate test is people
44:39
are responding. I mean like we really started
44:42
launching this new system in January which is
44:44
not an ideal time because you know schools don't
44:47
make their buying decisions fast but we had like
44:50
an incredible number of schools like decide and
44:53
make the priority to get the funding and do it
44:55
for this year for back to school. So, you know,
44:58
it's resonating. And so I think the future future
45:01
is bright. All right. And it's by Timbuk3, I
45:06
guess. So I'm going to add it to our playlist.
45:10
We have an integrate this guest playlist. It
45:12
was an 80s one. Maybe it's a different one. I
45:14
just it was Huey Lewis. What is Huey Lewis? Oh,
45:16
is it Huey Lewis? I gotta wear shades. I'm glad
45:18
I said that. I'm a child of the 80s, so it had
45:20
to be an 80s song. Okay, yeah, I'll find the
45:23
right one, because we do have an integration.
45:24
Yeah, be careful. It could have a wrong mix,
45:26
like Gene told me to play that one. I don't know.
45:28
Yeah, because it gets added to our guest playlist
45:31
on Spotify. Oh, yeah, so let's be careful. I'm
45:33
not sure. It's like, maybe Lewis or something
45:34
like that. Okay, I'll find the right one. Yeah.
45:39
Okay, so our last segment here, Gene, is just
45:41
this or that. So it's rapid fire. Got to choose
45:43
one or the other. Notebook, paper, or a notes
45:48
app? No book paper. Podcasts or music while traveling?
45:53
Podcast. Mountains or beach? Mountains, just
45:56
back from them. Text somebody or call somebody?
46:00
Text. And then the first to leave the party or
46:03
the last to stay? First to leave. All right.
46:08
Well, Gene, you survived it. Appreciate your
46:10
time and sharing your experiences with us here
46:13
today. Yeah. So thank you very much. Before we
46:17
do let you off the hook here, is there anything
46:19
that you would like to share for the listeners?
46:21
Contact information, links that people could
46:24
go to, or any upcoming events that you want to
46:26
promote. Oh, sure. I mean, check out what's going
46:29
on with our company right now. So renaissance
46:31
.com and particularly look for the stuff around
46:34
renaissance intelligence. It's really exciting.
46:37
I mean, it's one of those things where just give
46:39
us a few minutes to show you. And I think in
46:41
just a few minutes when we show you what we've
46:43
done, you'll be like, oh yeah, like that really
46:46
works. And like I said, the test has been. the
46:49
number of schools that even when we were launching
46:52
this you know in late in what would have been
46:54
the year buying process that we're still saying
46:56
yeah we're going to make that a priority because
46:58
that's gonna gonna really change everything so
47:01
this is there you know i've got my linkedin page
47:03
you're welcome to follow all that kind of stuff
47:05
uh but really check things out at renaissance
47:07
.com you go there forward slash webinars to tell
47:09
you you'll see the history of the webinars and
47:11
all that kind of stuff what's going on and forward
47:13
slash blog you'll kind of see some of the ones
47:16
you guys referred to you know we've got the standard
47:18
stuff there and it's just exciting stuff going
47:20
on. So I appreciate the time to come and chat
47:23
and just kind of riff with you all a little bit.
47:26
Yeah, definitely. We'll link some of those into
47:29
our show description here as well. So again,
47:31
just thank you so much, Gene. Thank you. Appreciate
47:34
it. Thanks for listening to Integrate This. Want
47:39
to take your learning further? Head over to our
47:41
YouTube channel for quick tutorials, deep dives,
47:44
and more EdTech tips you can use right away.
47:47
Don't forget to subscribe and catch new podcast
47:50
episodes every Thursday on Apple, Spotify or
47:54
wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,
47:58
keep exploring, keep innovating and keep integrating
48:01
this.