Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Cognitive Behavioral Therapy pt. 1

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Cognitive Behavioral Therapy pt. 1 · Why We Do What We Do

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
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  Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral host, Abraham, and.
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  Speaker 2: I'm your psychological alphabet Supost Shane.
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  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
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  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
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  Speaker 1: talk about practices that we have developed, which will be
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  Speaker 1: our topic today before we get into all of that.
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  Speaker 1: If you're joining us for the first time, then welcome.
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  Speaker 1: We hope that you enjoy what you hear in this discussion,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: and if you're a returning person, then welcome back. I
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  Speaker 1: also hope that you enjoy what you hear in this
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  Speaker 1: discussion again, and thank you either way. We appreciate you
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: being here. Yeah, I think that's that's what we're doing.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I feel like I jumped into all of that really fast.
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  Speaker 1: What did I miss I don't.
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  Speaker 2: Think we missed that there. I think that's that's usually
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  Speaker 2: what it is. So we are talking about cognitive behavioral
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  Speaker 2: therapy today. We are a psychology podcast. Listen to us,
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  Speaker 2: like and subscribe. All those things support us in different ways,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: which we'll talk about later. And then I think that
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  Speaker 2: the next thing we do usually is holidays. If I
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  Speaker 2: if I want to check with the Emperor producer to
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  Speaker 2: see do we have permission.
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  Speaker 3: Schedulist, maybe we go on.
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  Speaker 1: But today is April twenty second, So happy Administrative Professionals Day, Shane.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, thanks. It's also April showers Day. Not where
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  Speaker 2: you're att but where I'm at for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, April drought time. Over here, it is chemists celebrate
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the Earth Day. Cool, yes, because today is also Earth
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  Speaker 1: Day that tracks, Yeah, which also makes sense why it
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: would be global selfie earth Day. So go out in
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  Speaker 1: a space and take a picture of yourself with the
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  Speaker 1: globe behind you.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's only less than five hundred people who can
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  Speaker 2: ever say that they've done that. It's also International Mother
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  Speaker 2: earth Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, very good. Okay, so we've established I think I
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  Speaker 1: think that it's Earth Day in some capacity.
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  Speaker 2: Do you remember how much of a big deal it was,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Like Earth Day was such a big deal when we
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: were kids. I feel like I feel like the nineties
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  Speaker 2: like really took Earth Day very seriously, Like we just
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  Speaker 2: did so much conservation discussion and like reuse, reduce, reuse,
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  Speaker 2: recycle campaigns and all this stuff, you know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then George Bush took over yep, And so
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  Speaker 1: because of that, it is also National Jellybean Day.
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  Speaker 3: Beautiful.
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  Speaker 2: It's also National Library Outreach Day, which could mean something
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  Speaker 2: very different now, like because maybe librarians are possibly resistance
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  Speaker 2: movement leaders at this point in time, rather than just.
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  Speaker 3: Just managing libraries.
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  Speaker 1: At this point, just by running a library, you're like
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  Speaker 1: automatically an opponent of the government. Opponent of the government.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you uh huh. Yeah, it's a whole thing.
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  Speaker 1: It is Bedbuck Awareness Week.
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  Speaker 2: It is Cleaning for a Reason week. Every reason may
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  Speaker 2: be bed bugs.
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  Speaker 1: I was gonna make a joke about the reason being
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: to make things clean, but yeah, much better that. It
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  Speaker 1: is Every Healthy Kid Week. It certainly is nuts to
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  Speaker 1: those unhealthy kids.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is not Unhealthy Kids Week. It is a
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: National coin week.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: It is National Infertility Awareness Week. Separate things, yep.
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  Speaker 3: It is National lingerie Week.
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  Speaker 1: Not separate things. And it is National pet I D Week.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, it is get your dog a driver's license.
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  Speaker 1: As long as they're old enough to drive, as.
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  Speaker 3: Long as you're oldo to drive.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course, of course, if the if just maybe
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  Speaker 2: start with a permit, make sure they can drive.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty good. I recently watched a bunch of
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  Speaker 1: YouTube videos that were like pets who are lost and
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  Speaker 1: then returns to their owners, and a lot of them
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  Speaker 1: are like because the microchip thing. Yeah, it was sad
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  Speaker 1: and also uplifting, and that feels like that's how those
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  Speaker 1: videos go. But we're not actually here to talk about
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  Speaker 1: that in particular directly for any particularly extended period of time. Instead,
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  Speaker 1: we're here to talk about cognitive behavioral therapy. We have
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  Speaker 1: your attention, now, don't we Yes, we do. So if
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  Speaker 1: you're you're here. Maybe you saw cognitive behavioral therapy as
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  Speaker 1: the title and that drew you in, or you're just
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  Speaker 1: here because you're like I really just really like this podcast,
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  Speaker 1: and for whatever reason you found yourself here, you're here.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the things to start with that you
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  Speaker 1: may or may not know is that there are actually
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  Speaker 1: a ton of different approaches to psychotherapy. I mean, just
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  Speaker 1: so many. We could probably do the rest of this
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  Speaker 1: podcast for like this year, just each episode unpacking a
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  Speaker 1: different type of psychotherapy. There are that many to cover. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: doubt will do that because I think that would maybe
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  Speaker 1: be less interesting than it sounds, but at least we're
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  Speaker 1: doing it for today. Yeah, and cognitive behavioral therapy is
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  Speaker 1: one of, if not the most recognize and widely utilized
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  Speaker 1: form of psychotherapy that exists, and its name correctly identifies
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  Speaker 1: its two primary components, like the approaches to supporting mental
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  Speaker 1: health needs. That's the cognitive issues and behavioral issues. That's
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  Speaker 1: kind of what it is.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so as part of this episode, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to tell the story of one patient we found on
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  Speaker 2: a website for stories about applications of CBT. This is
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  Speaker 2: a story about a person named For the purposes of
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  Speaker 2: the story, we assume Zara. So Zara has anxiety which
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  Speaker 2: is impacting her ability to maintain employment, and we will
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  Speaker 2: tell her story verbatim as it appears on the website
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  Speaker 2: from which we found it, which is cpdonline dot co
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  Speaker 2: dot UK.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, so, not that this will affect you as a listener,
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  Speaker 1: but they spell every thing in the British spelling it,
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  Speaker 1: so it'll affect us reading it. But anyway, that will
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  Speaker 1: be sort of the foil around which will wrap the
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  Speaker 1: content of this discussion. Using this framework, we will discuss
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  Speaker 1: the history of CBT, which I think I didn't say before,
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  Speaker 1: Cognitive behavioral therapy. If you hear that c for cognitive
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  Speaker 1: B for behavioral t for therapy CBT. They'll discuss the
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  Speaker 1: history of CBT, the components of CBT, and some criticisms
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  Speaker 1: and research about CBT. For those of you concerned who
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  Speaker 1: maybe are huge proponents of CBT, do not be alarmed.
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  Speaker 1: We're not here to do a huge takedown of CBT.
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  Speaker 1: I think actually we're going to be very celebratory in
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  Speaker 1: many ways, and it is important in any topic where
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  Speaker 1: it makes sense to do so to also talk about
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  Speaker 1: the criticisms and sort of nuances of that particular topic.
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  Speaker 1: And there's just nothing that doesn't have criticism out there.
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  Speaker 1: So this is one of those things.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, celebratory and skeptical, that's what it is. It's always
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  Speaker 2: it's always from a good faith perspective.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah it is, yes, perfect, Okay, very good. I still
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  Speaker 1: feel like I'm missing something before we dive into this,
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  Speaker 1: but I don't know. If we're ready to start. We
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  Speaker 1: can just dive into our topic.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's it.
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  Speaker 2: You know what, if we can remember what we missed,
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  Speaker 2: we'll just drop it in the middle of the episode,
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  Speaker 2: so like it'll be a nice little easter egg for folks. Great,
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  Speaker 2: all right, folks, So let's get started with our main character,
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  Speaker 2: so this is directly from the website. Zara is desperate
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  Speaker 2: to get back into the workplace after being made redundant
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  Speaker 2: after being out of work for six months and struggling
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  Speaker 2: to navigate the complex benefits system. She's being pressured to
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  Speaker 2: find work by her work coach. Zar's mental health hidden
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  Speaker 2: all time low after the redundancy, and her GP was
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  Speaker 2: able to general practitioner.
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  Speaker 3: I'm assuming that's what that means.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, was able to refer her for cognitive behavioral therapy
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  Speaker 2: with you on the NHS, which is the national health
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  Speaker 2: system I believe in England.
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  Speaker 1: I believe.
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  Speaker 2: So after a twelve week wait, she was now offered
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  Speaker 2: her first session.
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  Speaker 1: And again, just as to reiterate the Salver Betam, we
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  Speaker 1: have the link for this whole story, but we didn't
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  Speaker 1: come up with any of this. We're literally reading it
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  Speaker 1: from the website. So anyway, now she is being pushed
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  Speaker 1: back into work. Her therapist decides to shift their work
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  Speaker 1: from her generalized anxiety disorder or GAD to thinking more
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  Speaker 1: about her anxiety about re entering the workplace. So that's
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  Speaker 1: where they're they's they shifting their emphasis and her therapist
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  Speaker 1: helps her to break the situation down into simple, more
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  Speaker 1: manageable parts.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, So that's I think kind of like maybe the
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  Speaker 2: general idea of what you might see in a space
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  Speaker 2: like this where like there's a presenting problem. The therapist
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  Speaker 2: is going to work with that person to identify what
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  Speaker 2: that presenting problem is and maybe break down ways to
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  Speaker 2: do it in those those doable parts, which we're going
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  Speaker 2: to kind of like talk about what.
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  Speaker 3: That means as we go.
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  Speaker 2: So to understand all this CBT you're caught in the
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  Speaker 2: Beavial therapy began in the nineteen sixties when a youngish
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  Speaker 2: therapist named a Ron Becke. No no, no, no, no, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: I know it was.
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  Speaker 3: It was a key appeal. It was a key and
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  Speaker 3: peel joke. Guy take. So yeah, he's.
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  Speaker 2: It's the teacher is calling out students' names and he's
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  Speaker 2: mispronouncing all of them and when he gets to error
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  Speaker 2: and he goes, hey, ay Ron, Aron, and nobody's answering.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: So so the therapist is actually named Aaron Beck and
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  Speaker 2: he was administering talk therapy. He noticed how often his
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  Speaker 2: patients seemed to be able to verbalize the fact that
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  Speaker 2: their thoughts and reactions to things seemed distorted or incongruent.
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  Speaker 1: Which was kind of a revelation, you know, thinking and
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  Speaker 1: really just observing these things and thinking that might have
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  Speaker 1: some important implications now important to understand at this point
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  Speaker 1: in history. And then the sort of nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties,
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  Speaker 1: and definitely well before that, all talk therapy was like
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  Speaker 1: wild West stuff, cowboy do whatever you want type approaches
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  Speaker 1: to the therapy. The therapist would focus on whatever part
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  Speaker 1: of the session they felt was important and approach it
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  Speaker 1: in whatever manner they had been trained according to the
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  Speaker 1: discipline from which they hailed, So they would sort of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: just come up with something and be like, this feels
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  Speaker 1: like a thing, and then they would approach it in
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  Speaker 1: that way. And it was really, to put it very technically,
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  Speaker 1: it was lucy goosey.
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  Speaker 3: I you know, I love describing things as lucy goosey.
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  Speaker 3: That's a lot of fun.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Like some things when things are lucy goosey or they
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  Speaker 2: get squirrely. I love that those are such great descriptors.
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  Speaker 1: The animal behavior helps.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, it's so it's so useful.
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  Speaker 2: So this is at this time, talk therapye is kind
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  Speaker 2: of cavalier, and these these therapists are kind of doing
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  Speaker 2: whatever they.
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  Speaker 3: Want, except for behaviorists.
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  Speaker 2: Behaviorists have historically been very technical, we'll say behaviors. At
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  Speaker 2: the time, had operationalized to manualize many of the procedures
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  Speaker 2: to focus on changing specific, discrete behaviors and had done
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  Speaker 2: so with tremendous success. However, their approaches had not really
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  Speaker 2: been demonstrated for more complex, multifaceted issues. It seemed to
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  Speaker 2: be limited to relatively small scale applications. So you figure
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  Speaker 2: at this point in time, this is the nineteen sixty
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  Speaker 2: So while we have worked on some important behaviors and
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  Speaker 2: we've even taught people at this point in time, I
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  Speaker 2: believe that by this time the Azrid Michaels article came
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: out or Jack Michael article came out with the psychiatric
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  Speaker 2: nurses the behavioral engineer. So like, we've also been able
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  Speaker 2: to demonstrate that we could teach people how to be
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  Speaker 2: behavioral engineers. But it seems like they were just more
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  Speaker 2: so like specific discrete behaviors rather than global or like
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  Speaker 2: more complex things like the mentalisms that are going on here.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they would take like a thing that a person
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  Speaker 1: in a psychiatric hospital was doing and they would change
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  Speaker 1: that thing. They wouldn't necessarily be addressing the diagnosis or
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: the disorder, or the language that the person was using
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: around these things. I'm an understandable, but they could change behavior,
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  Speaker 1: and they could do so pretty reliably and very effectively.
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  Speaker 1: In those spaces, all kinds of ethical issues to consider
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: inside of that. We did a whole episode on ethics
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: that reference some of these events way back in the day.
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  Speaker 1: But anyway, they were able to do that thing. But
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  Speaker 1: the rest of therapy it didn't have this same level
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  Speaker 1: of structure or I guess I want to use the
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: word integrity, but I was really what I mean by
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: that is like it didn't have a lot of rules
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: to follow, you know. Sure, and they didn't have as
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  Speaker 1: many ads. Okay, we're back. We've been sort of unpacking
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  Speaker 1: a little bit the history of CBT and what it
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: was contributing to the existing field of psychotherapy and I
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: guess therapeutic intervention at the time more broadly.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, So at this stage we've got kind of the
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  Speaker 2: emergence of this, we're kind of talking about this, and
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  Speaker 2: you've got somebody named Aaron Beck who has decided to
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  Speaker 2: kind of start to evaluate this a little bit further.
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  Speaker 2: So he assembles and manualizes his talk therapy approach and
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  Speaker 2: created some specific procedures for handling complex, difficult mental health situations.
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  Speaker 2: And he was the first person to ever try to
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  Speaker 2: do this with the kinds of problems he was addressing.
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  Speaker 2: So that's not to say that people weren't writing paper
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: or descriptions or even doing lectures about the concerns they
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: were experiencing. We were talking about like taking this into
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  Speaker 2: like manualizing it and standardizing it around like an intervention
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: package of sorts.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you had your psychoanalysts who are doing projection
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  Speaker 1: tests and or shock tests, and they would be like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you are doing this behavior because your mother fed you
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: breast milk until you were three or something. You know,
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  Speaker 1: they would just come up with nonsense that was based
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  Speaker 1: on nothing, and that was just what they did. But Beck, however,
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  Speaker 1: is like coming up with us, actually, here is a
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: strategy for how to approach these different types of things.
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  Speaker 1: And his first foray into the emerging approach was to
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  Speaker 1: really focus his treatment on depression, and that was that
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  Speaker 1: was kind of it. It was just like, let's just
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  Speaker 1: start with a diagnostic type and apply this method to that.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: And so he published his first book cognitive therapy for
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  Speaker 1: depression in nineteen seventy eight. I also saw nineteen seventy nine.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: So at some point, right at the end of the
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: It was before cocaine got really cool, you say so,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: in the eighteen it was pretty cool. Yeah, okay, that's fair. Yeah, ye,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: cocaine has been cool for a long time, all right.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: That not that we are we we don't get we
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: don't get money from big cocaine.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Don't worry like we don't have ads for from that.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: We're not actually even really endorse it.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Not at all, not at all, not at all.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you for clarifying that and keeping us in our
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: liability insurance. So this is arguably one of the most
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: successful applications of talk therapy of all time. And creating
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: a manualized procedure enabled this to be studied and purely
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: and validated with scientific methods. So that's really important as
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: we start to see you know, different like fields emerged,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: especially in psychology, that we were able to start studying
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: this in a different way, to apply rigor, scientific rigor
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: to these procedures and to see some like robust effects.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, you just you can't even imagine how difficult
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: it is to research something where you're independent variable is
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'll make it up when it happens.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: It's something that you can never see.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like, how would you determine what the effective
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: part of the intervention is if you can't figure out
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: what the intervention is? Right, And oftentimes they don't have
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: a dependent variable either. It's just like do you feel
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: better right now?
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Maybe? Right?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: No? Okay, So like they didn't have clear systems of
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: measuring these things. Until you have a clear dependent variable
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: and independent variable and you can actually say like, okay,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: are the things that we're doing working? And now you
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: have a things that you're doing and a way to
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: determine whether or not it's working. And so, as you said,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: this could be validated with the empirical research and validated
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it was uh huh. Researchers were able to successfully apply
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: CBT with scientific method and scientific research methods and of
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: all things in psychology replicate their findings, which, in case
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: you don't know, psychology has a tremendous problem with replication.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Is real rough Like, yes, there have been instances where
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: opportunities to attempt replication have failed as high as ninety
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: percent of the time. Sure, depending on the thing you're measuring.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: But that's that's a pretty bad record. And there are
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: a variety of reasons for it, Like it's not necessarily
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: doom and gloom and saying like everything that they study
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: is wrong. It's just to say, oftentimes the methods aren't
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: clear enough and so people struggle to replicate it for
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: that reason. There's a variety of factors. Anyway, point being
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: this was replicated research with CBT more so than any
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: other form of psychotherapy ever and still to this day
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: with more than two thousand replication studies. This is CBT
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: is the single most empirically validated approach to psychotherapy in
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: the world. And we'll return more to research about this
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: a little bit later. Yeah, but you hear some of
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: these things and you're like, this is the most successful,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: widely applied, highly recent search evidence based treatment in the world.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: And I have to wonder why haven't more people heard
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: of Aaron Beck like you, right, Freud, who like does
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: not share a huge amount of the therapeutic talk space anymore.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: And you hear of CBT, which is pretty much every
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: like everything, it's everywhere. If you're gonna go find a therapist.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: The good chances they're doing CBT because it is so
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: widely verified and like validated through scientific methods. And yet
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like most people, were you to ask, they
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: would be able to tell you Freud, they wouldn't be
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: able to tell you Aaron Beck. So I feel like
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: we need to like shift our priorities over to the
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: guy who actually made a pretty substantial contribution here and
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: acknowledge the work done by Aaron Beck.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, most definitely.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: I wonder if maybe he just wasn't very interesting himself, right,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Like I feel like I think that's part of why
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Freud was so interesting, because everybody was like, well, he
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: just wants to have sex with his mom, so that's
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: why he's.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Talking about this. And you know, like like there's like
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: a certain level which you know is like.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Such a glaring over generalization, like because of course he
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: did cocaine about it, and he did all these things
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: too that.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Were really cool.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: So like he was more arguably more interesting than some researchers.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: And maybe Aaron Beck was just like just a good researcher.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, I don't know, but maybe he's
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: just a good researcher that like kind of kept his
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: head down and like, yeah, I don't know, didn't scare
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: kids like like John Watson did, or you know what
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, Like he doesn't have that story. He's just
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: like he wrote a book and it worked really well.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: So like people don't like that story, you know.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's titillating. It's not titillating, it's just so Yeah.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: To find out that he like invented a rocket car
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: or something like, it's like something he did something really
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: cool that we're like, oh, yeah, of course he's like
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the most he had the most number one hits of
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: any psychologists on Billboard Music or whatever.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Like we're gonna find something weird about him later, you know.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Well, And I tried to search them, like are there controversies?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Is he like secretly a really bad person? And I'm
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: like the controversy is a lot of psychoanalysts didn't like
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: him because of what he did. Sure, Like all right,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: so I mean unless people have other information, I didn't
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: find it. I wasn't looking very hard, to be fair,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: but I didn't find any dirt on Aaron Beck. So
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I think we're okay to say he was like an
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: important figure in psychology and let's remember his name and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: maybe forget Freud's.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm just and now, just so everybody knows,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: this is the episode that we are shifting from a
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: psychology podcast to the TMZ of psychology, and we're just.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Gonna dig up. We're gonna dig up.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: We're gonna dig up history, just the history of all
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: these psychologists that are out there, and that's what's gonna be.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: So now, yeah, that's gonna this. Good lord, that's a
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: spinoff podcast. Okay, all right. So so at this point
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: in time, Aaron Beck has this like he's developed this thing.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: This CBT has been replicated so much, and of course rapidally, rapidly, rapidly.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: I'm just moving letters back by one. That's what we
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: do from now on. I'm gonna read a word, I'm
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: gonna change one letter, I'm gonna move it back by
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: a letter and.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: See if it sounds the same like pig latin.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Oh get ready, folks, it's going to be a real
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: difficult to interpret podcasts. So CBT was rapidly expanded to
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: address a wide variety of applications, including phobia's, anxiety addiction, PTSD,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: sleep disorders, eating disorders, OCD, bipolar schizophrenia, marriage counseling, and
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: sexual issues.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I actually didn't know about a few of these. I
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: didn't know it had been used for schizophrenia. That one
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: surprised me the most. Yeah, I also didn't know that
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: it had been really used much for PTSD, although it
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: does actually make a lot of sense that it would
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: be sure or addiction. But actually that's not true because
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I think we addressed this in our addiction suites where
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: we're like right now the empirically validated treatment is CBT.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: CBT, yes, exactly.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Schizophrenia is the one that surprised me the most. I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: don't know, did you know about all these?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: You know what's funny is like I knew about most
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: of them, especially around like eating disorders.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: I forgot that it had been applied with sleep disorders.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, specifically because like you know, most of the time
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: when we think of sleep disorders, like there's maybe something
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: some medical component or life you know, at least in
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the behavior analytic literature, so much of it is like
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: talking about the sleep problem that people have and like
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: the environmental stuff that we do around that. So like yeah,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: like sleephygene and stuff like that. So and not realizing
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: that sleep hygiene is largely in part not just behavioral,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: but also there's like cognitive pieces too that go along
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: with it. Like so like I could see CBT fitting
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: in that and slotting in there pretty well. But yeah,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: I mean it's it's one of those things where it's like,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I like, sleep does not is not the first.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Thing that I think of when I think of CBT.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Even though I know we've talked about sleep and we
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: have a lot of episodes on sleep, It's not the
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: first thing I usually go to when I think about CBT.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Been a while, so we've done a sleep episode.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe we're do Yeah, it sounds.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Like it just so much to say about something, you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: It's like it's maybe our favorite subject.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: This is a sleep podcast.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Fair. Another aspect of CBT is that it tends to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: require fewer sessions and less time commitment than other therapies.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Well at the same time that it doesn't require as
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: much of ament, it's also providing like the most effective
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: evidence based treatment available, which feels like a pretty slam
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: dunk win win sort of scenario. I saw numbers suggesting
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: that there are often only about twenty sessions or fewer
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to reach treatment goals and to start fading therapy supports,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: and it can go higher. There are people who might
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: be in it for years. But that's the number that
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I saw have really commonly thrown around in some of
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: the places where I was like reading articles on this,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: is that oftentimes you will accomplish your goals in about
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: twenty sessions or so. And we will talk a little
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: bit more at the end of this discussion about sort
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: of what to expect when you're going into a therapy session.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: But that's just a thing that I thought was interesting.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: So that does kind of raise the question now of
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: how does this how does CBT work, what's the strategy,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: what's the intervention, what are the components? Does it have ads? Okay,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: we are back, and just just to make sure I'm clear,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: CBT is not generally comprised of ads as a part
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: of the therapeutic component of it. So there might be
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: ads in the future, but they will not be related
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: to the therapy part of the process. I don't think.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Eventually it'll be a ready player one situation where most
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: of the screen will be ads while you're doing therapy.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably, and you like you have to wait through
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: ads to get to the therapy session and then it'll
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: be interrupted halfway with some ads. And there are ads
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: for CBT type therapies, so like maybe we are on
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: this dystopian hellscape already.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Late stage capitalism baby, Okay, So let's talk about how
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: it works. So CBT can be thought of as having
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: two primary modes of support with many subcomponents. So the
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: two broad domains are coditive talk therapy and behavioral therapy,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: so you kind of see those together, and the whole
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: approach is intended to be a model of the relationships
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: between coditive emotions and behavior. So the way that I
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: was taught is that it operates it's like a triangle.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: So you've got emotions, thinking, and behavior, right, So you
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: got those three things and when you're doing cognitive behavior therapy.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: And I'm just going to give like a quick rundown
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: from when I learned in my intervention stuff and kind
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: of like my training is that whenever somebody presents a
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: problem that is a thinking problem, you confront it with
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: either a behavior or cognitive problem. Oh that's I hear that.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: You feel like that, why do you think? Why do
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you think that's going on? Or what do you do
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: about that, and so like, so much of CBT is
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: like not triangulating between those, like, but what you're confronting
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: each point of the triangle with the other thing.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: You're thinking of the relation between the three.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, So what makes you think that, what makes
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you feel that, what makes you do that?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So, and I sort of lump the emotional and
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: cognitive together because if those feel like they're essentially addressed
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: in a similar way with respect to this model, is
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: you sort of have the internal stuff and then the
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: external stuff. Is kind of the way that I was
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: trying to parse this out. I think that you're right.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: The most CBT experts and therapist would say there are
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: the three sort of pillars or three points of the triangle.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But that's sort of how I parsed it here, because
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: that's kind of how the research ends up parsing it out.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Sure a little bit later, all right, let's get to
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: the core assumptions of CBT, And honestly, just the fact
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: that they acknowledge core assumptions already puts them ahead in
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: my book, because I'm like, so many approaches do not
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: explicitly acknowledge what their assumptions are going into it, and
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I just I think it's so important to know what
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: those are. So anyway, here's some core assumptions of CBT.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: One is that psychological problems and distress are at least
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: in part based on faulty or counterproductive ways of thinking.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: Okay, yep.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Another assumption is that psychological problems and distresses are at
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: least in part based on learned patterns of counterproductive behavior
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: like that one.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And then the third part is that people
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: suffering from psychological distress can learn better ways of coping
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: with their struggles and of more effective values driven lives. Okay,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: So those are the sort of three assumptions here. That
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: people have issues, and that those issues are caused at
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: least in part by counterproductive ways that they approach the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: thinking of those issues, that they're part of it is
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: their learned behaviors are counterproductive, and that they can overcome
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: those struggles by addressing those components of whatever the issue is.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So let's go ahead, and I think we could
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: start by unpacking the cognitive component.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: Of CBT first.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: There are three underlying components of cognitive issues, automatic thoughts,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: conditive distortions and underlying beliefs and schemas, and I'm so glad,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: so thankful that.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: We're talking about schemas again. That's just my favorite thing
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: to talk about.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: As in school, I used to get I used to
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: get so much grief from my instructors because I would
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: be like, what what is this?
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: This does it make any sense? This is not even real?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I would have those conversations as like, and then later
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, I understand what we're doing.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: But so let's start with the automatic thoughts part first.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So automatic thoughts are reactions we have immediately before we
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: have a chance to think about it.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Imagine you were.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: You have a partner who said they would do some
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: chore and they forget to do it and they don't
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: do it. You might have the automatic thought, I can't
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: trust this person anymore? Or are they trying to sabotage me?
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Which is what I think anytime the dishes are not done,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, like my daughter, Like I asked my
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: daughter to do dishes and she doesn't do it.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Is she trying to sabotage me? Like I do that
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: that's my honor thought?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Or they never do anything they say they'll do, or
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: something like that, or all of those things.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: You might have all of those rapidly.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are other explanations for forgetting you, and you
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: likely forget to do things you said you would do
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: as well, but don't forget maliciously.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. The whole thought is like you might notice
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: that you have this automatic reaction that's like very judgmental,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: critical angry and has a lot of evaluations of the person.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And like that's just one example. You could also imagine
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: like a coworker who you see in the hallway and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: they don't like wave or acknowledge you, and you immediately
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: think they must hate me, right or they you know,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: we must have a bad relationship now or something like that.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Like there's automatic sort of thoughts you just super impose
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: on top of that situation. So that's the automatic thoughts part.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: The other part here is distorted thoughts, and these are
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: errors in logic that often lead to erroneous conclusions and
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: harmful actions. So I'm a list through some of what
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: those can look like. And I gotta say, reading through
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: this list, I was like, wow, this describes someone I know,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: like as like if I were to just list their
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: personality traits, every single one of these would be that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: whole entire list. Sure, yeah, but this is dichotomist thinking,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: which is essentially like it's just black and white. There
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: is this, or is there is this, there's no room between,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: there's no gray area. It is just this thing or
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: this thing. That's sort of a distorted way of thinking
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: about things. Is just parsing it into column A or
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: columb I wish I had a good rample wra the
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: tip of my tongue. But let's just say going back
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: to the example of a partner who forgets to do
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: a chore, and it's just like you either did it
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: and you do respect me, or you didn't and you
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: don't respect me, and there's just no other interpretation for
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the scenario.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I think a really good example this would be like
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: when you have somebody who is like an artist who
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: has written really great music and then they also are
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: like they've gotten themselves in trouble, right Like, so like
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: you go like, oh, this person's bad, so all their
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: music is bad and everything they do is bad or
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: all their art is bad. When dichotomics is so like
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: you could be like okay, So like I would use
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: the example.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Of like R. Kelly, right, like R. Kelly.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Oh no, listen, listen, Okay, but like, wow, yeah, listen, Okay.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Are you in the Epstein files?
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I am not, I am not.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I am not so R Kelly terrible done, terrible, terrible things, right,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: awful things, serving time, all that stuff. However, if you
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: listen to I Believe Vacuum Fly, it's very hard to
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: make the argument that's a bad song, right, like or
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: like so like dichotomis dichotomist thinking would go R Kelly's bad,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So that song is bad, and then like you just
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: kind of throw the baby out with the bath water
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: type of sort type of thing.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: As you're just saying, okay.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: That's yeah.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I am not justifying anything that R. Kelly has ever done.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, we are not.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: We are just to be clear at this at this stage,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: this episode is chaos, so let me I just want
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: to be clear.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: I want to be clear.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: We are not condoning regular use of cocaine. We are
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: not supporting or platforming R.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: Kelly. We're simply using examples.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, So Harvey Weinstein kidding, just kidding, just kidding. All right, great,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: dichotomis thinking done.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Next, let's go ahead and risk the next ones.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see how Laura off the rails. This can can
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: get Yeah, talking about distorted thoughts. Maybe that's you know,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: we're talking about distorted thoughts, maybe bringing up our Kelly's Okay,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: it's yeah. The next one is over generalization, which is
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: what it sounds like. You know. This is you have
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: some rule about something and you just apply it to
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: all things after that and treating everything as if there
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you know, the one example you have is a monolith
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: that represents all of those things. Yeah, that's over generalization.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Do you have an R. Kelly example for that? Kidding,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: we'll explanatory, Okay, all right.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Selective abstraction is the next one, and this is when
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: we focus on certain, usually negative aspects of a situation
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: while ignoring all other aspects.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: This would be like the person.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: That sees a rainbow and complains that there's not a
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: real pot of gold at the end of it. That
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: they go like, well, this is like, yes, it's beautiful,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: but there's no pot of gold, right, so like how good?
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Like what's the use anyway?
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Like that would be an example of select abstraction instead
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: just appreciating how beautiful it is, that we get to
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: see a rainbow and out in the wild.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Or like if you might be going to a concert
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: with like your favorite artist and you can't find a
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: good parking spot and the person's just like, you know what,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: the show's terrible. I hate it, Like let's just let's
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: not even go. It's what's the point. It's ruins now,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: like we can't find a parking spot, Like, let's just
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: not even go to the show. Like that to me,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: it's like the only important thing that mattered in this
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: whole situation is the lack of parking spot, and now
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: you're just unwilling to even have the opportunity to find
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: value because the one thing just sent you spiraling.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, so the next one is mind reading.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: And mind reading is basically the idea it's presuming to
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: know the thoughts and motives of others and you really
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: don't know them. I think about this like I think
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: about this with my daughter a lot, Like she something
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: will happen and then she'll take this to like a
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: stage where she thinks that like, oh, everybody's mad at
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: her because somebody forgot something, and then she like, well,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: just like oh you did that on purpose. You don't
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: like me you trying to do that, like she I've
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: heard her do this exact thing, where like she just
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: assumes that, and I've had a conversation with her and
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: been like, nobody ever said that, nobody's doing this, Like
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I've had that actual conversation with her. So she does
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of this, which is really interesting.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I'm sure she'd appreciate it being the example here.
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: She Hey, listen, she knows we have had the conversation
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: that she does this.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So so like we do a little bit of like
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: family based CBT. Yeah, yeah, you know here at the
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: house without a therapist, so like we just kind of
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: talked through stuff.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Right, will love Lust. Yeah, yeah, I also think about this.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is basically fundamental attribution error. Sure, this
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: is the idea that like somebody does something and that
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: represents who they are as a person. But you know,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I think I think about this a lot when driving,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and it's you know, making assumptions about what the other
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: drivers are doing on the road, like that person's being
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: really careless. They must be you know, they must not
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: care about anyone else on the road. They must be
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: a bad person, they must not be paying attention whatever,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: you know, insert my projection onto whatever I think they
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: must be thinking and just assuming to know what's going
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: on for that person in that context. Right, there's the
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: great example, if we've used several times on this show.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, if there was someone you found
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: out that they had, like a child bleeding out in
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: their backseat and they're driving like a bat out of hell,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and you don't know that they have a child they're
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: bleeding out in their back seat, But when you do
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: find out, all of a sudden, all their behavior makes
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense to you, Right, And like that's
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: kind of true in all situations all the time of
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: like all these crazy things that people do, not that
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: they're justifiable or that they're the best actions they could
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: be taking, but when you understand the variables that contribute
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: to it, all of it makes sense. Like, oh, I see,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I see how we got here. This is a history
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: of trauma. This is a situation that had a triggering
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: effect for you, this is whatever is Like when you
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: have enough history, all of it does make a lot
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: of sense, even if you can understand that that's not
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: the appropriate response to have in those situations, right, But
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: it no longer is like you don't need to project
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: into them what is going on in their mind and
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: try and do the mind reading thing if that makes sense, right, Ads,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: try and read your mind. They're so so, so so
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: bad at it. We are back. We have been uncovering
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: some of We've been exploring some of the cognitive distortions
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: that someone might have that would be addressed or targeted
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: for intervention in CBT.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, the next one that we're going to talk about
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: is something called fortune telling. I believe if I recall correctly,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: this is when.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Somebody thinks that they can predict the future.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: So this is when they go like they basically say, like, oh,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: this person's just they're going to be mean to me
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: when we go to this party.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: You know, the show's going to be bad. We're like
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: the parking example.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Oh like before they even leave the house, they're gonna go, oh,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: parking is gonna be terrible, traffic's gonna be terrible, We're
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: not gonna have a good time. Yeah, they're kind of
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: already predicted the future before things even happen.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this tends to be pretty doom and gloom. Tends
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: to be pretty adverse and negative in terms of the
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: things that are predicting, not necessarily all the time, but
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: it is usually how it's represented, and just as you know,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: assuming the worst as a very common way that this looks.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: And then you know, people who just try and predict
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the future also are pathological.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: So just yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: They are, but not from this deep perspective. Yeah, you know,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: con artists. But anyway, with respect to CBT, that's it's
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: more of the people who are just assuming to know
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen in a given situation.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: The next one is minimizing, and this has to do
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: maybe you'd expect this, but it has to do with
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: acknowledging that there are like positive things there, but that
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: you kind of reduce the overall importance of those things,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, I guess it's good that there's this thing,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: but it's really not that big a deal. It's like
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: not that important or useful because of all these other
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: bad things. So it's emphasizing the things that are wrong
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: or bad and de emphasizing the things that are good
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: or important and focusing on things going poorly.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, there's also catastrophizing, which sounds like exactly
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: what it is.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: It's very much so.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Chicken little Yeah, it is the sky's falling. Sky's falling,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Like the one little thing is the most devastating thing
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: that could happen. It's a real problem for that person
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: and for everybody involved.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's just this is the worst thing that
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: could ever possibly be happening. And I'm like, yeah, I
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: mean no, it's not.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the worst day of my life, is it?
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: This is the worst thing.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, all right, that's catastrophizing. The next one is
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: emotional reasoning. This is, as it sounds, essentially reacting with emotions,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: sort of gut level reactions and not necessarily thinking very
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: critically or carefully about things. Just you reason through things
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: with emotions like how how you feel? And then that
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: is used in lieu of thinking carefully through things and
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: sort of appraising them for their actual sort of importance
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: and value and whatnot.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: And there's also should language, which is like, if I
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: understand it's correctly, this is when people are like, this
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: should be happening, I should be doing this, I should
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: be at this part of my life, like I think
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: my best like a best friend of mine who has
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: consistently been like you know, I'm at this age. I
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: should have been married by now, I should have had kids,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I should have had this, and they're like kind of like,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: you know, sole idea of like comparison is the thief
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: of joy and all that stuff, but like that that's
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: kind of what he's doing, is like, you know, I
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: should have this, I should have that, I should have this,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and that is creating distress for them for him, like sure,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: it's just like because he's like thinking about like like
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: thinking about like stages of life, and it's causing a
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: lot of problems.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: You're exactly right. This is very self critical a lot
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: of the time. It can be also like this should
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: be the situation or this person should be behaving in
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: this way, and it could be critical of others, but
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: this often is very self about what you should or
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be, or how you should or should be. I
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: should be thinner, I should be healthier, I should be whatever.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of this language of like as you said, comparing,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: which I had not heard that comparison as the thief
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: of joy. But I love that. That's really good. It's good, right, yeah,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: And the last one here is personalizing again, it is
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: just is taking things personally. I think you could just
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: interpret it that way, and that's reflecting how this thing,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: what it means for you. Again, often very self critical,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's just as taking things personally.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so that's kind of the disorted thought piece
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: Then there's the underlying beliefs part of the conditive behavior
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: the conditive piece of the Condon.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Behavioral therapy piece. And underlying beliefs include your core beliefs,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: which is the central idea about self and the world
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: at large. And then it's also rigid and overgeneralized thinking
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: like thinking I am not enough, I am inadequate, I'm terrible,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: I'm an idiot, like all the things that I say
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: to myself as my morning mantra when I wake up
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and I look in the mirror.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Oh no, yes, those are the statements. Don't don't emulate
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Shane in this No no.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, not helpful. It's not helpful.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: But yes, the common ways that again, it's thinking back
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: that a lot of times this is critical of others,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: but most of the time it is self directed sort
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: of flagellation if you will. Sure, but uh, I use
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: the term around some of some people recently and they
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: had no idea what I was saying. I mean, it
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: does sound like flatulation. Yeah, so I get that it
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: is kind of a funny word.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: But yeah, self flatullation is very funny, very different.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: It's a very different experience.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, is this a VOKEB word? Don't need to define flagellation.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Let's Seeah, let's go ahead and do that real quick.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: I think we got we got some time.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: We haven't done a vocap in a minute, all right.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Flagellation is the act of very commonly, this is like
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: whipping or beating the body. This with some kind of
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: instrument straps, rods, whips, cataine tails. It exists a lot
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: of different forms which we don't super need to get into,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: but it is for self flagellating. It is like a
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: penance thing. It is I am punishing myself type of thing.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: It can also be flagellation in general. It can just
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: be someone doing it to somebody else again, usually a
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: form of punishment. It can be judicial or extra judicial
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: or religious. It also has sexual fetishes include flagellation, but
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: self flagellation in the context that I'm using it here
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: has to do with beating yourself. Usually with an instrument
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: of some sort, although I'm using it more like mental
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: self beating up.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fair.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: All right. So you mentioned the core beliefs, and then
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: there's also intermediate beliefs. These are assumptions, attitudes, and rules
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: influenced by core beliefs. This actually, I have a strong recollection.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: We did the inside out and inside out too, and
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: this feels like the inside out to anxiety laden core beliefs.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: To be accepted, I should please others is like one
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: of these intermediate beliefs. Assumption right, attitude, rule, it's a rule,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: is a very good way to putting it, like to
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: be popular, I need to work really hard, or something
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: like that. Whatever it is, that's the sort of intermediate belief.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: So in practice, this looks like learning to recognize the
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: sort of thoughts and reevaluate them. When it comes to CBT,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: the therapist will ask you to talk about your thoughts
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: and feelings, become aware of problematic thinking patterns, and then
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: challenge those thoughts. So if you say something like to
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: be accepted, I should please others, the therapists may say, well,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: what makes you think that? Or like where like you know,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: if you have an idea of where does that come from?
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Or like they may ask you questions to kind of
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: like explore that statement and what will happen as a
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: result that as more of a behavior, more thoughts, more
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: things will start to come out, and they'll be able
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: to kind of help you sort through those disorder thoughts
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: a little bit better.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you think of an example where that is
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: not true, where that there has been something different? Is
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: what a question that might be asked? You know, Yeah,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I've not practiced in this space, so I'm maybe not
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: the best person to really exact, but.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: That's what it might be.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: It might be like something like you know, like you're
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: thinking this, it's like, okay, is there every situation where
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: you believe that you think that shows up differently for you?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah, the person will have to that'll be
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: so much of the session is kind of like taking
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: that and going, okay, well, what makes you think this?
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Is there a time where that's not how what you think?
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: And then kind of like asking questions like, well, what's
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: the difference, what's the same, why you know, why why
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: does this persist? How does this affect your daily life?
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Like you start doing kind of like emotion, thinking and behavior,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: all those together and with that one question.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole, the whole idea that's rooted at this
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: part of it is to challenge those beliefs. It is
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: to and not necessarily in an argumentative way, but it's
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: to have you consider the belief and think, like, maybe
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: this is like a rule I'm following that's not actually
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: right right, Or maybe this is like a belief I
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: have that I'm that is based on some assumptions that
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: are maybe not really helpful or accurate. The whole point
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: of this part of the therapy is to bring those
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: sort of implicit things to light and then challenge them
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: and try and have you consider them in an alternative way.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: And it is important to know, as we're talking about this,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: this will look different between different therapists and different people
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: and their own issues. Like the recommendation is to treat
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: it as a partnership between you and the therapist, assuming
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to you, the patient, and you must be willing.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: They really recommend for this to work that you must
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: be willing to be honest, communicative, open, and really authentically
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: engaged to get the most out of the therapy.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're hiding things, Like for example, when you
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: listen to an AD and they have like the fine
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: print in it and it's kind of like hidden away,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: that's not gonna be helpful, right, Like, you're not gonna
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: get the best product out of this. You're not gonna
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: be able to make the best decisions. So like, as
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: an example, here's an AD that probably has some fine print. Okay,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: so we're talking about kind of like some general guidelines
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: for what to do when you're in CBT or kind
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: of how it works, and we're just kind of talking
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: about that. In order for this to be the most
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: effective and to be to be the most useful, you
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: have to be honest, communicative, open, all those things. But
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: it's also important because we're kind of talking about this
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: is like I don't want this to sound like a
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: panacea for all psychological problems.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: This is not going to work for all people.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Some people struggle to connect with this form of therapy
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: and will not see the same benefit as they might
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: from different from a different approach or from a different therapist.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: So like, sometimes it might not be the approach itself.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: It might just be that they don't have have good
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: therapeutic rapport with the therapists they're working with. There's plenty
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: of times, and I'm sure everybody listening to this has
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: met somebody and immediately you're like, there's something about that
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: person that you just dislike and you're not gonna connect
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: with them right away. So, like, there's gonna be people
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: that you just don't get along with. They just don't
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: feel good, and you're gonna be less trustworthy of them,
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: so you're not going to open up and have those
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: honest conversations, and so therapy is not gonna work for
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: that person or with that particular circumstance.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. This does not work for all people,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: even though as we mentioned, it is one of the
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: most heavily evidence based in all of that, Like, it's
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: still not, as as you said, a panacea, and it's
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: not gonna work for all situations, but pretty effectively applied
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: in a lot of a lot of cases. Yeah, So okay,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I think that we've unpacked sort of the important part
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: of like what is going on in the approach cognitively
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: in here, which is to identify those distorted thoughts, the
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: automatic thoughts, and the underlying beliefs, and then to try
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: and challenge those and have the individual practice thinking about
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: their reactions in a different way and like to try
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and consider the kind of thoughts, underline, beliefs and distortions
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: that are guiding a lot of the reactions, and to
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: try and then adopt some different ways of reacting to
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: those things by you know, just thinking about it differently. Right, Okay,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: so let's get back now then, So we've unpacked this
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: part of it so we can we can now get
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: back to our friend Zara, who's going through psychotherapy. And
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: remember we're reading this directly from the website because it's
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: their story to tell. So I figured didn't want to
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: try and alter it or change it and maybe miscommunicate it.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: So here's the exact quote here, reading from this. Where
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: we left off with Zara is they had shifted their
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: focus to working on her readiness to return to work
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: because that was sort of the presenting issue here. So
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: where we are now is the reality of the situation
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: is this is the therapist or are talking to Zara.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: The reality of the situation is you've been out of
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: work for six months. Prior to this, you had been
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: at the same company for over a decade. You were
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: educated and qualified right, and.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: So thoughts that I show up are things like I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: will do this wrong and I will make a fool
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: of myself and get sacked again. Some feelings maybe fear, anxiety,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: loss of motivation, feeling powerless, scared about finances, and low
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: self esteem over due to worklessness. And some beliefs might
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: be I'm not good enough, I'm too old to learn
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: new things.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: Other workers will be better than me.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: And then some of the behaviors you might be lacking motivation,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: you might have avoidant behavior, not attending interviews or even
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: filling out applications, and some of the consequences are then
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: you want to get back into work. You know this
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: will raise your self esteem and give you purpose. However,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: you're letting fear, nerves, and anxiety hold you back. So consequently,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: your benefits are being sanctioned and you're suffering financially, which
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: adds to your stress.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, so, ZAR sessions begin to focus on the
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: specifics of the issue, anxiety about interviews and rejoining the workplace,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: and how our thoughts and feelings were affecting her behavior
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: and holding her back.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: All right, So that's where Zarre is. This is long enough,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: and we have enough content that I think at this
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: point we would transition to talking about the behavioral component
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: of cognitive behavioral therapy, since we've unpacked the cognitive component.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: But because we have as much as we have, let's
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: go ahead and split this into two parts, and we'll
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: do the second part coming back talking about the behavioral component,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of the research, finishing up with Zara's story,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: and then sort of having our take home points for
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: everything that we've had to do with this. And I
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: will say, for those of you listening now, the part
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I was the most eager to talk about is the
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: behavioral component and the research hu. I think it is
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the most interesting, the most illustrative, and the most thought provoking.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: And we needed to set up all of the backgrounds
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: to get to that point. So you'll be, in my opinion,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: really missing out if you don't come back for part two.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed, agreed, All.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Right, very good, So yeah, come back next week. We
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: will have our thrilling conclusion to this discussion, in which
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: we will unpack the behavioral aspect of CBT as well
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: as some of the research around this, finish up Zaro's story.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Then we'll have a really cool listener mail. I'm looking
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: forward to getting to read at the end of that discussion,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: but I think we'll go ahead and pause this discussion
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: here and transition to our wrap up. So I would
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: like to say that if, as as I mentioned before,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: if you're joining us for the first time, you may
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: not know that at the end of our discussions we
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: recommend some things. Even in two partters such as this one,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: we will usually recommend something at the end of each part.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like we maybe skip that once, but pretty
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: much invariably, multi part episodes each get their own recommendations
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: because we like do a lot of stuff and we
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: have so much to recommend.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: That's true. Yeah, I love it.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: So if you would like to tell us your thoughts
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: so far on what we've covered on cognitive behavior therapy,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. You can email
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: us directly info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or reach us
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: on the social media platforms, and we do look forward
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: to hearing from you all. We've got, as I said,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: some cool listener mail to read next time. But in
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: addition to that, I would like to say that if
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: you would like to support us, you can join us
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, If you do that, you'll get some early episodes,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: ad Freak episodes and bot Us content. And what everyone's
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: really here for is for our supporters. I will read
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: your name at the end of our full length episodes
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: as a thank you to acknowledge you for being here
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: with us and helping us do our things. So a
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: giant shout out and thank you to Mike, m Megan,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Mike t, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: It's just been so helpful to have you here. We
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: really appreciate you all so much, so thank you.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: You're the best, truly the best.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: And you can support us in other ways by leaving
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: us a rating and or a review, like and subscribe
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: to make sure that you always get our episode in
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: your feed, and go tell a friend, because word of
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: mouth is one of the best ways to pass a
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: podcast on and help it do its thing.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: I also would like to say thank you to my
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: team of people, without whom I could not make this
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: show because it is just a lot of work and
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: I need more hands on deck, and so the hands
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I would like to thank belong to writing in fact
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording with
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: me today.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: Shane, thanks for having me.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our Emperor
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: producer extraordinary of the magnificent is Justin who is just
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: the best and we really appreciate his ability to make
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: what we record sound like a real podcast.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, it's beautiful and I love it and I
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: love him indeed.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Also, of course, thank you so much to everyone for
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: listening and for joining us here today. Is there anything
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I'm forgetting or that you'd like to add before we
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: transition to recommendations at the moment? Perfect, Well, I think
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: we're so close to the end that there's no point
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: in doing another ad break. So lucky, y'all. Let's just
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: read our recommendations here.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: Let's party recommendations.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, I am recommending a TV show. This is one
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: that I recommended when season one when I finished season one.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Season two is now complete, and this is the TV
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: show The Pit, which is on HBO or HBO Max
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: or whatever they're calling themselves these days. It is I
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: guess you would call it a medical drama. It takes
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: place sort of in the style of the TV show
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: twenty four in the sense that every episode is a
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: real time hour of a shift in an emergency room,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: and it's all fictional, so it's not an actual emergency room,
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: but they really try to make it pretty realistic. They
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: have multiple consultants who are like doctors on set that
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: help them. The writing is really oriented toward a round
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: the kinds of emergencies that they get, and just incredibly
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: edge of your seat engaging show. I will say for
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: those sensitive viewers, there can be an uncomfortable amount of
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: blood and visceral body part images that might be difficult
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: to look at. So do know that you will sometimes
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: see some upsetting images of like injuries. But the show
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: itself is just unbelievably well done and so engaging, and
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: so season two just wrapped. It is phenomenal, one of
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: the best shows on television right now. I just cannot
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: sing its praises enough. So if you can get over there,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: check out the pit. I love it.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: I keep hearing such great things about it, and I'm
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: so excited to get into it. But it's a it
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: looks so good and I hear it's like it's just
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: done so so well.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have heard from like on YouTube channels and podcasts.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Some medical professionals come on and say this is the
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: most realistic depiction they've ever seen of like an emergency
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: room in that real environment, not to say that it's
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent like dead on. Like, you don't see
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of repeat injuries on this show, and I'm
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: sure ers get a ton of like tree repeat injuries
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: where they're just dealing with some of the same stuff
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: over and over again. But this is like for the
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: viewing audience, you want a lot of novelty. So it's
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of different types of problems that they see,
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: and you know, some of them they fix, like within
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: ten minutes. They like person comes in, they they all
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: rush to help. They solve it, and the person's like
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: on their way by the end of the episode. Some
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: of them, the people there for multiple episodes dealing with
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: like the issue that they've got. They just do such
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: a good job with it and it's just really well done.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: So HBO the Pit, I love it.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: I'm going to recommend a comic book series. This comic
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: book series came out a few years ago, and I'm
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: sure that I've recommended it before, but I'm rereading it
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: right now, and I just didn't really enjoy it. It's
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: written by John Layman and Rob Gileroy, and it's.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Called Chew ch e W.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: The story is that you've got a cop named Tony
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: Chu Chu and he is what has described as a
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Seba path, which means in the context of this book,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: that anything he eats, he can see its entire life story,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: like he can like he has these flashes of like
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: I eat something and I could see where it grew,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: the pesticides that were on it, where they came from,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: how was handled, how it got here.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: Da da da da dah. So except for beats, it
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: doesn't work for beats.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: So and of course, like vegetables are maybe not as
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: much of a problem, but you know, you can imagine
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: that meat might be a problem to eat A struggle. Yeah,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: that'd be a real struggle. So the beautiful thing about
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: the way they've constructed the story, though, is that chicken
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: is currently outlawed because of a serious bird flu and
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: the FDA has taken on like a CIA type of
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: FBI type of kind of job where they all are
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: now investigating chicken rings and like illegal stuff like that.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: It's very funny. It's very silly. It's very over the top,
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: and the humor is some of my favorite It's just
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: so funny and so great. There is a rooster in
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: this story and he is a cock fighting like champion
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: and his name is Poyo, and they hire him as
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: a secret as a secret weapon for the FDA whenever
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: they need to release a secret weapon because he's so
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: violent and so so it's just it's just incredible if
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: you ever get a chance to read it. It's just
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of fun for such a weird, bizarre premise.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: All right, super interesting. I do not remember you recommending this.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: It is possible that you have and I just forgot,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: but I think this is a new recommendation from you.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, beautiful, enjoy it.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Great. All right. So that is HBO is the Pit
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: and the comic books series something or other. I guess
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: not you c W Yep, that's it perfect, all right.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: I think that's what we have to say for now.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Join us next week and we will get into the
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: second more exciting part of cognitive behavioral therapy. Beautiful, thank
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: you for listening. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: We're out.
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: See ya. You've been listening to why we do what
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: we do.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day.