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How A Few Simple Rules Have Shaped Jake Hartson's Parenting · I Don't Know You

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Matt.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm a Jesus follower,
0:07
SPEAKER_00: husband,
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SPEAKER_00: father,
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SPEAKER_00: son,
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and friend who is deeply curious about people's creativity and
0:13
how we unleash our
0:14
SPEAKER_00: unique talents onto a world that needs them.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: Today, we're joined by my friend Jake Hartson.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: He's a husband,
0:20
SPEAKER_00: father,
0:21
SPEAKER_00: veteran,
0:21
and entrepreneur that has recently jumped into full-time
0:24
ministry with Search
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Ministries,
0:26
an organization that helps Christians and their friends give
0:29
space to work through
0:30
SPEAKER_00: life's biggest questions.
0:31
We talk about his time in the military and how that shaped him
0:35
to be the leader
0:35
SPEAKER_00: that he is,
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SPEAKER_00: how his new boss is my old high school teacher,
0:39
SPEAKER_00: and the road of fatherhood so far in his journey.
0:42
This is a really special episode and conversation,
0:44
and I'm so grateful for his honesty.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy!
0:46
I met you and we probably had stakes and we were talking about
0:51
the venture that you
0:52
were doing at that point and then like getting to understand
0:55
you more of like
0:56
you're the serial venture guy but then I was doing like more of
1:00
a deep dive well I
1:03
mean that's a big piece of what I'm understanding your
1:07
personality to be and so
1:09
SPEAKER_00: it's like you have to you have to
1:11
those are the goals that you have are the problems you want to
1:13
solve for lack of a
1:15
better way of saying that and like you're wired that way so it
1:19
sounds like oh yeah
1:20
I love a good puzzle you have to on some level yeah but that
1:25
has drawn me to you in
1:27
many ways because I like as weird as it sounds like see myself
1:32
in a lot of like how
1:33
we talk about things and there's a lot of resonance I think
1:37
even just like
1:38
with me sort of figuring out the season that I'm in and the
1:42
immense value add and
1:44
friend that you've been through kind of like I feel like we've
1:47
solidified our
1:48
relationship in a different way because of like the last couple
1:51
of months of you
1:52
really like being there for me and like giving of yourself and
1:57
being super valuable
1:59
SPEAKER_00: in like a very good friend way
2:03
because I think you could have charged a lot of money for the
2:06
consulting stuff that
2:07
I feel like you've been doing with me but I've just been very
2:11
appreciative of that
2:13
SPEAKER_00: and so as I kind of start this journey of the experiment of having these
2:19
conversations I was like oh man I need to I want to like have
2:22
more time to talk to
2:23
you because I feel like you're just a wealth of like you you're
2:27
a little bit
2:28
SPEAKER_00: farther along on the path of life yeah
2:31
and so much of what I think you're doing and actively doing now
2:35
is like where I
2:36
want to be someday as like it seems like even as a dad and as a
2:41
husband but
2:42
especially as like a leader in the conversations that we've had
2:45
so I'm very
2:46
grateful that it's a very long-winded way to say that yeah well
2:50
I feel it's
2:51
likewise you know like that's I feel like we've just been able
2:54
to talk about things
2:55
SPEAKER_01: that like
2:57
some people can't live in like the dream space for very long
3:00
before they're like
3:00
dude give me a next step I just need to do something with this
3:03
but it's like I
3:04
think for guys like you and me we do need to like hold the
3:08
space a little bit
3:08
longer to be like I need to process through this I need to talk
3:11
it out I need to
3:12
SPEAKER_01: whiteboard it I need to
3:14
you know throw ideas back and forth but it also is helpful when
3:17
you have somebody
3:18
that's like oh we're similar enough to where like what you have
3:21
to say and maybe
3:21
speak into my life I know that you've probably been through
3:24
that because you're
3:25
similar to me yeah that's what I'm like even our conversations
3:27
I'm like oh I can
3:29
actually take that as good advice because you know that'll
3:32
actually match with who
3:33
I am as well as opposed to just being like Alex Imosi telling
3:37
me to do another
3:38
thing and like just go harder go faster to go stronger it's
3:41
like yeah the David
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SPEAKER_00: Goggins of marketing yeah
3:44
yes exactly and after a while it's just like well that's not
3:47
really who I am yeah
3:49
well yeah there's pieces of value within that but I'm always
3:53
trying to look for the
3:54
people that I resonate the most with on like how are you doing
3:57
life in a way that
3:59
SPEAKER_00: is sustainable and it seems like
4:03
you're valuing the stuff I was talking with a guy this morning
4:08
who's also a part of
4:08
CBMC his name's Peter Varberg super cool guy but we were just
4:14
talking about like
4:15
our mutual love of film and the people that inspired us in film
4:19
people like Steven
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Spielberg or whatever and you think about like
4:23
the type of journey that he's gone on to get to the place that
4:27
he's at and you're
4:29
like oh man it would be so awesome to he's so inspiring but
4:33
then you think about
4:34
like his personal life and you think about like all the
4:37
sacrifices he's made
4:38
in order to like get to the place that he's been where it's
4:42
like in the same year
4:44
he's making Schindler's List and Jurassic Park like two of the
4:49
biggest movies of
4:50
all time and during that time he's like so depressed because
4:54
he's like working
4:55
through faux pas Rule number one of podcasting Let me know if
5:01
you need to get that
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh that's funny that is a reminder to pay my mortgage
5:07
nice hey that's important that speaks to my personality hey did
5:12
you pay the
5:12
mortgage oh no I literally have a reminder to pay to pay rent
5:17
every month for that
5:18
exact thing that's hilarious this is the time of day on a
5:21
Friday no I'm like I
5:23
don't know when I said that but that's hilarious but anyway I
5:29
was just we were yeah
5:31
SPEAKER_00: we were just talking about the idea of like
5:35
there's so much like influence inspirationally from a guy like
5:40
that for me where
5:41
it's like oh he's just worked so hard but then like what does
5:43
he sacrifice to get
5:44
there and so when I look at people like you it's like oh you're
5:49
not willing to
5:49
sacrifice the things that I'm not willing to sacrifice and so
5:52
it's like how do you
5:54
give up some of the dreams that maybe you've had in the short
5:57
term for like the
5:58
longer dreams that are are bigger than like your own personal
6:02
ambition or whatever
6:03
right I just keep hearing people say over and over and over
6:06
again as I ask them
6:07
questions and they're just like you know it's it's one of those
6:10
things where it's
6:11
like nobody ever says like I just wish I would have spent less
6:14
time with my family
6:15
yeah less time with my kids I wish we didn't have as good as a
6:17
relationship like
6:19
nobody ever says that yeah so it's like if nobody's ever saying
6:21
that and in fact
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SPEAKER_01: they're usually saying the opposite
6:24
why would I not invest in the things that are going to allow me
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to do that later on
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because you find people that have all these great big
6:31
businesses or success and
6:33
that you're still like empty and I'm like I'm like I just got
6:37
to remember that like
6:38
on my obituary I wanted to be like people like respected and
6:42
loved me because of
6:43
SPEAKER_01: like who I was not because of what I did
6:45
Yeah well and even I mean the perk of hanging out with a bunch
6:49
of old people all
6:50
the time is that like you understand what's important like at
6:56
their stage of life
6:57
and they have a lot more life to look back and actually have
7:00
like good things to
7:01
say about it A legit like take on something Yeah and so much of
7:05
it is like when
7:07
SPEAKER_00: you're on your deathbed or whatever
7:09
you're not going to be talking about like the big cool
7:12
successes that you had it's
7:13
going to be like the success around family and the types of
7:16
relationships that you
7:18
built and stuff like that and so like I think that's the and
7:22
then obviously a huge
7:23
piece of this is just like a relationship with Jesus also
7:26
pushes you in that
7:27
direction too it's like how do you love people and love God
7:30
well and so it's like
7:33
what's the marks of a fulfilling life yeah and it's like he
7:37
kind of said usually
7:37
always the opposite of what everybody else was saying yeah
7:40
you've heard it said but
7:41
I say unto you yeah it's like oh man so like I want to do these
7:44
things but this is
7:45
what the world is yeah the first shall be last and the last
7:48
first and yeah it's
7:49
usually the opposite and you're like oh gosh is this one of
7:51
those opposite things
7:52
yeah and like true leadership is servanthood like it's a very
7:56
it's an upside down
7:57
SPEAKER_00: yeah the upside down kingdom or whatever the term is that people coin
8:01
which is what makes life I feel like for guys like you and I so
8:04
complicated because
8:05
there's so many lenses to see things through and then it's like
8:08
well let me take
8:09
away this lens real quick and it's like oh so actually business
8:11
wouldn't be that
8:12
hard if I just forsake all these things which are like no but I
8:15
actually really
8:15
care about those so I can't take that away and I want God in
8:18
there so it's like
8:19
there's really only one little small thread through all these
8:21
things that would
8:21
actually be fulfilling to me it's like that's what I pursue how
8:26
do I find that
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SPEAKER_01: small thread which is hard
8:30
I'm curious on like you navigating that thread through like the
8:35
because in
8:37
researching this conversation like you've just done so many
8:42
different things and
8:43
you started sort of like I don't know it almost feels like the
8:47
career started with
8:48
like the military where it was like what that's probably a very
8:52
long story of how
8:53
SPEAKER_00: you like even got into that
8:55
and I think we've talked a little bit about it but I haven't
8:57
heard like the kind of
8:58
inception of like what was it about that that you wanted to
9:03
dive into because it
9:04
takes a special kind of person to want to do that You know it's
9:07
funny because I was
9:08
thinking about this the other day of how I've chosen what to do
9:13
next and I'll get
9:15
into that probably in a little bit but specifically for the
9:17
military though I
9:18
literally remember thinking and I told my mom this and this is
9:21
how I convinced her
9:22
SPEAKER_01: to sign the papers when I was 17
9:24
SPEAKER_01: was that I was like,
9:26
SPEAKER_01: there are so many other people out there,
9:27
families and people that don't want to go or they don't want to
9:31
send their sons or
9:32
SPEAKER_01: their husbands or whatever it might be.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'm here.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm willing to go.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a warrior.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't see myself as a warrior, but I'm willing to go, so why not me?
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Why would I not go?
9:45
SPEAKER_01: There are patriotic values that I attribute some of it to as well.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: I do
9:52
I think America is a great country and so I was like yeah I'm
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willing to like put
9:56
my life on the line for that ideally I don't have to but I
10:00
would be willing to and
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Was there family history there too?
10:04
Not really no I mean no real history but I did have a teacher
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in high school and he
10:11
was a former Navy guy and he just talked about the military so
10:14
highly that I was
10:15
like I like you and I like what you've done so I looked to my
10:19
buddy and I was like
10:20
SPEAKER_01: we should just join we should go
10:22
And then it was through a conversation honestly with my dad and
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I was like,
10:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to go join right after high school.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't really want to go to college.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, stop.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: You're going to college.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: You need to go to college.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like,
10:34
SPEAKER_01: okay,
10:34
SPEAKER_01: how can I both meet that expectation that he has of me,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: but also fulfill my dreams.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: And so ROTC came out of that.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:43
a little bit of it was financial too you know like college is
10:47
expensive and so I
10:47
was like oh they'll also pay for college and so it kind of was
10:50
like this perfect
10:51
world where like I have these values I have this this these
10:54
things that I want to
10:54
do I love to travel just kind of filled all of those things and
10:58
I was like what did
10:58
your buddy end up doing he joined with me okay uh and and true
11:03
brother at first he
11:04
didn't though like I was the one who I went first and he wanted
11:07
to go firefighting
11:07
SPEAKER_01: route
11:08
and then he went to the firefighting academies like it's really
11:10
hard to become a
11:11
firefighter like it takes years I was like yeah so why don't
11:14
you just come down
11:15
with me yeah and so he joined up with me as well he ended up
11:18
going the National
11:18
Guard route so he got to do it more part-time cool which
11:21
looking back on it might
11:21
have been better route to go I don't know looking into your
11:26
your experience which
11:28
is like very very high level like it seems like you got to do
11:32
some pretty insane
11:32
SPEAKER_01: interesting things I to be honest I was very
11:37
like for lack of a better word I was very blessed in my
11:39
military career I mean I
11:40
got to do all the fun things and none of the really hard
11:43
terrible things it was
11:45
like work hard play hard but most of my work at least was not
11:50
life or death yeah
11:51
and that's a lot it happens a lot especially in the army
11:54
there's so many positions
11:55
you can be a dentist you know you can be a there's we have
11:58
veterinarians that are
11:59
military yeah and so it's just like there's a lot of but I
12:03
chose specifically
12:04
SPEAKER_01: infantry so I was in an infantry role
12:06
training infantry people um but I just worked I ended up
12:09
working with NATO
12:10
countries and training them up to go to Afghanistan yeah and I
12:13
was like all right
12:14
if it's not going to be me at the time I was upset about it I
12:17
was like dude I
12:18
watched Band of Brothers I want to be a platoon leader in
12:20
combat I want to be I
12:21
want to have my you know my captain winners moment of just like
12:24
leading guys in
12:25
SPEAKER_01: combat yeah but that wasn't in the cards for me
12:28
Yeah well you were leading in a different way and I'm grateful
12:33
that you didn't have
12:34
to lead people into combat and something happened because
12:39
otherwise we wouldn't
12:39
know each other and I look at the people that did and I was
12:42
like man they got
12:43
SPEAKER_01: really messed up
12:45
sometimes physically but most of the time is emotionally or
12:49
totally or in other
12:50
ways so something that happens in a split second uh wreaks
12:53
havoc and and stuff for
12:55
the rest of your life changes you yeah yeah that's such an
12:58
interesting concept of
12:59
like being grateful for the sacrifice of those men and women
13:02
but then also like man
13:04
what a what a sacrifice for them unknowingly probably on some
13:09
level to like
13:10
oh I'm gonna sacrifice for my country but then there's also
13:13
this like baggage you
13:15
don't even understand really there's probably more that's come
13:17
out with that and
13:18
stuff oh yeah yeah and you'll carry that with you for the rest
13:21
of your life yeah
13:22
for better for worse yeah yeah well it'll shape the way that
13:24
you do everything
13:26
probably yes on some level and that and that's like looking
13:29
back in the military I
13:29
SPEAKER_01: was like I was so well set up because I am very chaotic
13:35
I'm a very like shiny object kind of guy and so that gave me
13:39
like the disciplined
13:40
way of thinking about things and there is a process and there
13:43
are processes that
13:44
are really helpful you don't have to always create something
13:47
new so that's like my
13:50
biggest lesson and takeaway at least from my time in the
13:52
military Stole my next
13:54
SPEAKER_00: question Yeah that's great
13:57
My next question was like what was something the military
14:00
taught you about
14:01
leadership that like a civilian find it hard that a civilian
14:04
like maybe wouldn't
14:05
SPEAKER_00: understand
14:07
Well yeah there's so much to be said in that in the military
14:11
that the main thing
14:12
was like when I finally got through all my training and like
14:15
was here's my first
14:17
duty assignment I was 22 years old and the youngest guy that I
14:22
led out of the 30
14:23
guys that I had in my leadership was 24 so I was the youngest
14:28
guy and I was the
14:30
leader of those things of those guys and so it just became this
14:33
like okay well I
14:34
SPEAKER_01: can't lead by just by I'm older than you yeah
14:37
i'm wiser than you i'm smarter than you it literally is just
14:40
like i have to lead by
14:41
influence and so i just had to get to know all the guys really
14:44
really well to be
14:45
like hey look i'm not telling you because i'm i know any better
14:48
than you because
14:48
you guys have also all been in combat and i have not yeah um
14:52
but i'm gonna lead
14:53
like basically because i care for you guys and i actually care
14:55
about how you think
14:56
about things how did they respond to that well i mean they
14:59
loved it because it was
15:00
like everybody else a lot of the guys that i worked with were
15:03
coming out of west
15:04
SPEAKER_01: point
15:05
and it's kind of like there's a stereotype for West Point grads
15:07
which is like they
15:08
know a lot they've been to the academy they're like all the
15:11
greatest generals came
15:12
out of West Point so there's a lot of pride there but they're
15:16
still usually the
15:17
youngest guy and they still have so much to learn and so I got
15:21
to come from a
15:21
SPEAKER_01: position of humility
15:23
and they were coming out of a position of pride so it was
15:26
honestly kind of nice to
15:27
compare and contrast where it's like I'm spending time with my
15:29
guys I'm just
15:30
sitting there I'm having lunch with them sometimes in the gray
15:33
area where it's like
15:33
you don't want to hang out too much with them you want some
15:35
separation but it helps
15:36
SPEAKER_01: so much because my plan
15:38
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
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Mattheisler Mattheisler
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SPEAKER_01: Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
16:09
what's the right term like it gave them validation and it like
16:14
helped with their
16:15
pride maybe in a good way oh yeah well it immediately builds
16:18
buy-in yeah and then
16:20
it's them knowing the plan it's like okay another one of these
16:23
young officers
16:24
thinking that they know what to do it's like well this is your
16:27
plan so if it fails
16:28
it's fine yeah yeah yeah my boss will care about me but like at
16:32
the end of the day
16:32
SPEAKER_01: if it goes well like you will reward that so it sounds like it went well
16:36
yeah for the most part most of them went well but just to have
16:40
that collaboration I
16:41
mean you know this and we've this is what we learned about each
16:44
other that we like
16:44
to collaborate yeah and so for me it was still playing into my
16:47
strengths of like I
16:48
have some ideas but I would much rather collaborate around this
16:51
and have built the
16:52
best idea yeah and I think they appreciated that yeah was there
16:57
ever a moment like
16:57
when you were doing that with them in the field that you were
17:01
like what have I
17:01
SPEAKER_00: gotten myself into like um
17:04
almost from the perspective of like maybe you shouldn't have
17:07
listened too much to
17:08
like this this person yeah luckily there's plenty of those
17:13
moments but when you're
17:14
in the training environment luckily there's not serious
17:17
consequence to it I mean
17:19
people would still get hurt and get injured and you'd have
17:22
people that like hey we
17:23
haven't seen you in a month because they're like in the
17:25
hospital like broken bones
17:27
and those sorts of things but it was never life or death I mean
17:31
other than you can
17:32
SPEAKER_01: still have car accidents and things like that happen
17:35
but there was just a lot of like really audacious goals so like
17:39
I'd be like I'm a
17:40
little hesitant there's risk mitigation here we don't want to
17:43
be overly like
17:44
aggressive and some of these guys would be like if you just
17:47
like come in guns a
17:48
blazing and push through it's like we can actually get this
17:50
done a lot quicker and
17:52
honestly it was like oh that actually worked there'd be some
17:56
times where it's like
17:57
SPEAKER_01: They'd see our success and then the trainers would basically be like,
17:59
SPEAKER_01: okay,
18:00
we need to kind of neutralize them a little bit or neuter them
18:02
and basically say,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: okay,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: you guys are dead even though you wouldn't have been dead.
18:05
And so they'd be like,
18:06
all right,
18:06
well,
18:07
in the real world,
18:08
this would have worked.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: But in the training world, it didn't work because- That's fascinating.
18:12
Yeah that's funny I'm reading this series right now it's like
18:16
the third time that
18:17
I've read it because it's just so epic I love it it's called
18:20
Red Rising and it's
18:21
SPEAKER_00: basically like Star Wars meets like old ancient Rome
18:28
and it's just like so much better than Star Wars in my opinion
18:33
and like the first
18:36
book is basically like war training basically it's like Hunger
18:41
Games meets like
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Star Wars meets like it's a very
18:45
awesome series but it's basically reading or listening
18:48
listening audible yeah when
18:49
I say reading reading most of the time I'm listening especially
18:52
for fiction oh yeah
18:53
much more immersive a thousand percent and and then I can like
18:56
do other stuff and
18:57
but anyway so much of what you're talking about is like oh my
19:00
gosh this is this guy
19:01
probably had like some version of that background maybe yeah
19:05
where it was like I
19:06
was thinking about like the military training and all the right
19:09
all the stuff that
19:10
SPEAKER_00: goes into that where it's like
19:12
well there's so many experiences that like I would never put my
19:15
you could not as a
19:16
civilian say like you know what I'm gonna pay a bunch of money
19:18
I'm gonna go learn
19:19
how to drive tanks it's like you just don't get you just can't
19:22
you can't do that
19:22
and so you know I was thinking about that earlier today I was
19:25
sharing it with
19:25
somebody of like yeah I went through some tank training and one
19:28
of the guys was
19:29
literally like hey you want to see what this thing's capable of
19:31
and I'm like
19:31
SPEAKER_01: learning how to drive it
19:33
I'm like well yeah he's like alright we're all kind of on the
19:36
road like just
19:36
learning to drive and stuff he's like just go off the road like
19:39
20 feet and go run
19:40
over that tree I was like that tree over there it's like you
19:43
know it's a pretty
19:44
good sized tree and he's like yeah just go over there and pull
19:47
over and run over it
19:48
so I just leave the road you know and go over it and hit this
19:51
tree and literally
19:53
all you have is this like little periscope essentially to look
19:56
out of and you just
19:57
hit the tree and it just felt like dink yeah and you just keep
20:00
rolling and you're
20:00
SPEAKER_01: like you realize
20:04
SPEAKER_01: and then everybody gets on the radio like what are you doing?
20:06
Foxtrot War 3 like get back on the road and I'm like okay sorry
20:09
sorry this guy told
20:09
me I could do it that's funny but it's like that's an
20:13
experience like nobody really
20:14
gets to resonate with unless you've been on it that's funny I
20:18
was literally having
20:19
a conversation like that with a buddy of mine yesterday night
20:23
and he's like he's a
20:25
SPEAKER_00: part of some special task force in a police department and so like one of
20:32
the training stuff that they they did was basically just like
20:35
burglary 101 like
20:37
they learn how to pick locks and they learn how to like get
20:40
past like bypass
20:41
security systems and it's like such a odd specialized training
20:45
thing that like only
20:48
SPEAKER_00: these types of people would be
20:51
SPEAKER_01: have the availability to do.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: And the permission to do.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: Ethical hackers.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: He was like, this is a burglar's dream course.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: And it was so funny to talk about because it was like,
21:02
SPEAKER_00: oh yeah,
21:03
SPEAKER_00: I guess it is a really useful skill to pick locks.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's illegal, but it's also super valuable.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And if you start Googling it, you might start to get profiled.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: FBI shows up at your door.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally.
21:16
we did that as trainers so we were called what's well the
21:19
military calls it the op
21:20
four or the opposing force and so we were always learning how
21:24
do we play the bad
21:25
guy of whoever we're going against or however we're training
21:29
and so for the most
21:30
part when we're sending everybody to Afghanistan it's how do
21:33
you think and act and
21:34
behave like the Taliban and so we go to an IED building course
21:40
and I was like I
21:40
SPEAKER_01: know how to make an IED and a bomb and it's like huh
21:44
That's not a class you get to pick up off of Coursera.com or
21:47
whatever It's like and
21:49
so Coursera How to build an IED But you just start to think
21:54
like how your enemy
21:55
would think and honestly I think that's the best training you
21:58
can get Yeah Because
22:00
then it's like oh well my plans are now informed not based off
22:04
our doctrine or how
22:05
we would do it but based off how the enemy is going to respond
22:07
Yeah I mean it's the
22:08
SPEAKER_01: whole Sun Tzu Art of War stuff Totally
22:11
I loved it because it was like think outside the box a little
22:14
bit more yeah well
22:14
that's such an interesting parallel to I think like
22:17
sanctification too where it's
22:20
like understanding how the enemy works in that realm I was also
22:24
talking to a guy
22:26
SPEAKER_00: last night about
22:26
That's hilarious There's another one too if I haven't told you
22:30
about it It's
22:31
actually based on that book right up there Know Thy Enemy
22:35
Called Nefarious Didn't
22:38
SPEAKER_00: they make a movie based off of that?
22:40
It's a modern day take on it Where this psychologist gets with
22:43
this guy who's in
22:44
prison And he has to determine whether or not he's
22:46
psychologically insane Because
22:48
then they won't give him capital punishment But the guy's
22:51
possessed by a demon
22:53
SPEAKER_01: And so it's just these two,
22:54
an atheist that's a psychologist talking with a demon and it is
22:58
so fascinating
22:59
SPEAKER_01: Interesting Oh,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: that's how,
23:01
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
23:01
SPEAKER_01: that makes sense that that's how the enemy would think Is it a,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: so it was a book and then it became a movie,
23:06
SPEAKER_00: have you watched the movie?
23:07
SPEAKER_00: I have, yeah Okay, is it good?
23:08
SPEAKER_01: It is,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: it is so good until the last 10 minutes Oh,
23:12
SPEAKER_01: okay So good until the last 10 minutes So like worth watching?
23:16
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't really spoil it for you but it's just a fun ride Okay
23:20
but most movies end with like a question or something to ponder
23:25
this puts a bow and
23:26
SPEAKER_01: wraps it perfectly and ties it tight and you're just like eh
23:30
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't make me think anymore like so depth so in depth of thinking
23:34
psychological thriller it's got even like the scary music and
23:37
stuff so you're
23:37
really captivated by it and then it just turns into this nice
23:41
cheesy ending and I'm
23:43
like well it was like made by Christians right so it's got the
23:47
Christian it's got
23:48
SPEAKER_01: the pure flicks it's got that God's not dead vibe oh come on
23:55
SPEAKER_01: We already know that's the answer,
23:56
SPEAKER_01: but you don't need to say it Yeah,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: yeah Okay,
23:59
SPEAKER_01: alright,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: so I'm not going to watch that one Yeah
24:02
maybe I'll read the book yeah the book's good okay yeah
24:05
although it's gonna have a
24:06
hard time beating screw tape letters in my opinion yeah can't
24:09
it's just like I was
24:10
explaining screw tape letters to this guy last night and he was
24:13
just like that
24:13
sounds fascinating and also hilarious yeah and I was like it is
24:18
all of those things
24:18
SPEAKER_00: C.S.
24:19
Lewis is just that good yeah oh yeah yeah he's what an
24:23
incredible incredible writer
24:24
yeah yeah speaking of movies I'm interested to see what Greta
24:28
Gerwig does with
24:29
Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe Oh I haven't heard about this
24:32
They're starting it over again?
24:33
Oh yeah Anything like that is just gonna It's like Lord of the
24:37
Rings Anything Harry
24:39
Potter They're just gonna keep remaking it forever What else
24:45
did Greta Gerwig
24:46
Barbie Barbie and then her partner is this guy named Noah
24:53
Baumbach and he's done a
24:55
SPEAKER_00: lot of like
24:56
he has a lot of interesting movies like Marriage Story if you
25:00
watch that but his
25:01
whole life philosophy I feel like is very nihilistic postmodern
25:06
and so I'm very
25:07
curious to see I think Meryl Streep is going to be Aslan which
25:12
will be like hmm I
25:14
SPEAKER_00: think C.S.
25:14
Lewis would probably be rolling over in his grave on some level
25:18
I really like her as a
25:21
actress and a director her movies are very thought-provoking
25:25
and they leave you
25:26
with lots of questions okay Barbie is like her biggest thing
25:30
ever yeah and that's
25:31
how I think she kind of skyrocketed into interesting but yeah
25:36
I'm I'm obviously
25:37
gonna watch it because I'm I like her and I like the source
25:41
material yeah but I
25:42
SPEAKER_00: really
25:43
And super skeptical There's a lot of ways you can take that too
25:46
Oh of course,
25:47
especially just like And she's like a big time I don't think
25:50
there's really
25:51
anything wrong with it On many levels But like she's a big time
25:55
feminist And like
25:56
all that kind of stuff And so I'm curious to see how she kind
25:59
of Deals with that
26:02
Even just like her casting choices Are like oh okay These are
26:05
speaking volumes
26:07
Which I love Meryl Streep I think she's amazing When is it
26:10
supposed to come out?
26:11
SPEAKER_00: I think next year
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Is Amazon doing it?
26:18
I think it's Netflix I'm not positive I could be wrong Netflix
26:24
is doing everything
26:25
They buy everything The only reason I ask is I feel like Amazon
26:31
has been on a tear
26:32
SPEAKER_01: with
26:33
quasi-religious stuff House of David and they're doing Moses
26:36
now or something like
26:37
that I saw something about like I think they were pushing it
26:40
because it was like
26:41
Easter it was like a religious women of the Bible or whatever
26:45
and I was like huh
26:46
this is interesting that they're like this market is
26:49
underserved and they can like
26:51
SPEAKER_00: serve it because like Pure Flix or whatever is
26:55
like dominating that or I don't know the hallmark used to
27:00
dominate that and then
27:01
they were like just the feel goods yeah yeah exactly so they're
27:04
realizing oh
27:05
there's money to be made in these sectors people just want to
27:09
hear good things
27:09
sometimes yeah I mean we're on a rabbit trail tangent well I
27:16
can talk about movies
27:17
all day oh yeah we should probably do this again at some point
27:20
and just talk about
27:21
SPEAKER_00: movies yeah
27:23
but I am I mean going back to kind of your experience of the
27:25
the military I saw
27:28
something when I was like kind of building my questions around
27:31
this idea of like
27:33
mission first people always and I was curious like can you
27:38
explain that in your own
27:39
SPEAKER_00: words and then like
27:43
How do you apply that to how you've been thinking about the
27:47
roles that you've had?
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
27:48
it's funny that you bring that up because that was literally
27:51
the pain point that
27:52
made me start the business that I did because the Army says
27:57
that and that is an
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Army value and I think that they do the best they can with that
28:02
with the context that they're in of like defending the greatest
28:06
nation on earth
28:07
kind of thing yeah but it is like look we have to be laser
28:11
focused about what we're
28:12
trying to achieve but do not forsake the people that are
28:16
helping you to achieve
28:17
that mission and that was that was the heart that was the idea
28:20
behind it and you do
28:21
the best you can again like I'm saying but like when you say
28:23
like sorry you do have
28:24
to leave your family and go overseas and go enter into battle
28:28
and potentially die I
28:29
SPEAKER_01: mean is that really people always it's like
28:32
no but mission first right yeah and so so coming out of the
28:36
military and then even
28:37
SPEAKER_01: into ministry
28:39
I saw that same thing even in ministry where it's like mission
28:42
first the Great
28:43
Commission first but it wasn't people always it was like kind
28:48
of at the expense of
28:49
people and so that's where I was like man there's got to be a
28:52
way that you can
28:53
actually hold that tension and do both as best as you possibly
28:58
can and again that's
28:58
why I almost give credit to the military like with that mission
29:02
that they had they
29:03
SPEAKER_01: did a pretty good job of taking care of people
29:07
you know just down to even like how they move people around the
29:09
country and how
29:10
they how they take care of the family at home while you're gone
29:12
and those sorts of
29:13
things it's like they don't necessarily have to do that but it
29:16
definitely makes it
29:16
a more attractive place to work yeah but then in ministry it
29:20
was like I didn't see
29:22
SPEAKER_01: that I was like hmm you have this great mission and like our
29:26
our mission is clear like what we're trying to accomplish and
29:28
how that fits into
29:29
the biblical narrative and how Jesus has called us to these
29:32
things but it was like
29:35
forsaking loving people first which is really how the people
29:39
Jesus says that's how
29:39
people will know that you're one of mine because by the way you
29:43
love one another
29:44
and so my whole business was then okay well how do we have this
29:48
great mission but
29:49
SPEAKER_01: then strategize and operationalize those values that you're talking about
29:53
and actually put people first and take care of them so that
29:56
they can accomplish this mission.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: That seems impossible.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:00
So hopefully that does a good job of at least articulating
30:04
mission first people always.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: But it's always, it just stews in here of like it's a tension.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: There's no answer to it.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: I think that was what I was left with when I was thinking about it.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I was curious to get your thoughts on like
30:18
how you articulate it because it is inherently attention and I
30:22
think that's like
30:23
sort of what it's meant to be it's not and it's like you're
30:27
gonna constantly
30:28
wrestle with this idea and there's not gonna be like so many
30:32
things in life it's
30:34
SPEAKER_00: it's not it's not black and white it's like gray yeah and there are
30:40
SPEAKER_00: moral black and whites and absolutes within them.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: But it's so nuanced and tenuous when you're like living it out every day.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And with people it can't be total control.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:53
You know to where it's like yeah you just run people into the
30:57
ground or people
30:59
SPEAKER_01: don't want to live in that environment.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: And so really I'm still kind of convinced and
31:05
it doesn't work every place but especially in ministry and I
31:09
would say even in
31:10
business where it really should be people first mission always
31:14
where it's like at
31:15
the end of the day always put people first because at the end
31:19
of the day that's
31:19
what we are we're humanity we're operating like with one
31:22
another but you can always
31:24
be thinking about how that mission fits into that even the
31:28
Great Commission it's
31:29
SPEAKER_01: like
31:30
do you forsake people so that you get the great commission well
31:33
it's like now
31:33
you've literally just not achieved your mission yeah so you
31:37
fail your mission
31:37
because you didn't put people first yeah yeah yeah it's just
31:42
the way you prioritize
31:43
yeah yeah well I feel like that goes into something that I'm so
31:48
curious about for
31:49
from like a fatherhood perspective where it's like you're in
31:54
that journey and
31:55
SPEAKER_00: you've been in that journey for a while where it's like the
32:00
kind of the nuance and complexity of leading and the experience
32:05
of the military.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: How has that informed fatherhood?
32:13
SPEAKER_01: Fatherhood, I think, has been my greatest challenge so far.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: It's just hard.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard because
32:21
it's very unclear and it's very like unique to every single
32:25
person and how like
32:27
what fathers can do and like there's the like this meta view of
32:30
what a father is
32:31
and you want to like live into those as best as possible if
32:34
it's biblical but when
32:36
you actually get down into it it's like there's no playbook or
32:39
prescription yeah
32:40
every every kid is different every circumstance is different
32:43
and so in the military
32:45
SPEAKER_01: you're given very clear guidance of like
32:47
here is your mission or here's what you're trying to accomplish
32:50
from a strategy and
32:52
then you break it down all the way down to the company level
32:55
and then even all the
32:56
way down to your team mission which is just four people but it
33:01
all matriculates all
33:02
the way back up to the grand mission and it's like that doesn't
33:06
happen at the home
33:07
level and so it's really hard to just know how do I lead in
33:11
this moment doesn't
33:13
SPEAKER_01: need just force to drive it through and to punch this through so that
33:17
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
33:20
Mattheisler Mattheisler
33:22
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
33:25
Mattheisler Mattheisler
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Matthei
33:40
the other way yeah if you're flipping it people first mission
33:42
always yeah but then
33:43
it's like how is people always mission first like the mentality
33:49
when that like
33:50
because there's I don't know I feel like that the question
33:53
behind the question is
33:54
like I am seeing that because I'm new in many ways to the
34:00
fatherhood deal and it's
34:03
SPEAKER_00: so
34:04
gray and and and there are again there's absolutes and I feel
34:08
like that's just like
34:09
a there's a philosophy that I'm I'm building over time in that
34:14
area but um like the
34:17
the grayness of like people always is like oh it's just really
34:23
tough a lot of the
34:24
SPEAKER_00: time when it's like
34:26
because every kid is going to have their own personality and
34:29
work through stuff but
34:30
then how do you like meet them in that and be present when it's
34:34
like oh it'd be
34:35
much simpler if it was just like I was doing the like army
34:41
version of this yeah
34:43
well even in the army it's like there's rank and file customs
34:46
and courtesies and it
34:47
really just comes down to like duty honor respect and listen to
34:50
what's being told
34:51
SPEAKER_01: of you where it's like
34:53
not everybody thrives under that and especially when you're
34:55
kids I think it was
34:58
Andy Stanley who had this phrase or at least that's where I
35:02
heard it from and I
35:03
feel like it's a new take on what would Jesus do like the old
35:06
WWJD but it's like
35:08
what does love require and that sticks with me every time I
35:12
think about those
35:12
SPEAKER_01: things because I'm like okay what does love require how do I love my son
35:17
the best way possible and sometimes it is like you need some
35:21
rigidity you need to
35:22
know that there's an authority and there's a subservient
35:26
version of that and that
35:28
SPEAKER_01: you do answer to me at least for now but I don't want to
35:32
exert that so hard that he doesn't then trust any authority at
35:36
all and so it's like
35:37
well what does love require and a lot of times that I have
35:39
found especially with my
35:40
son is like it takes like getting down on your knees to his
35:44
level to be eye to eye
35:46
to say like hey look I respect you but you also have to listen
35:48
to what I'm saying.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: How old is he?
35:50
SPEAKER_00: He's three.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Well but I think like we laugh at that and then I'm always so
35:58
convicted about like how impressionable and how like
36:02
foundational this time period
36:04
is I think in all of our lives where it's like no the beginning
36:09
is is is just like
36:11
it's hard to comprehend how much they're taking in and they're
36:14
learning and they're
36:15
working through and and like the way that they're gonna view
36:18
the world the their
36:20
whole life in many ways is like the work that we're doing now
36:23
as parents and like
36:25
that's I think like the challenge of parenting is like you're
36:30
thrust into it thrown
36:31
into the fire and then it's also like some of the most pivotal
36:36
time formational
36:37
time for them as children too so like I don't know I think I
36:41
just come back to how
36:43
do I how could I possibly do this without relationship with
36:46
Jesus where it's like I
36:47
don't know how like parents that don't have that relationship
36:50
deal with this
36:51
SPEAKER_00: because it's just like
36:53
Man so much of this is just like I guess I'll try this I'll
36:56
figure this yeah and
36:58
like mistakes along the way obviously but yeah lots of mistakes
37:04
lots of apologizing
37:05
yeah about humility yeah asking asking what does love require
37:10
but then you know I
37:12
SPEAKER_01: just think of what like with my daughter she was my first and she is like
37:19
kind of more artistic but loves control and order and I'm like
37:24
is this because
37:24
she's first born or is this because that's how Kinsey and I my
37:27
wife and I started
37:29
like parenting because we're like oh you need it we're scared
37:33
and we're fearful so
37:34
what do we do when we're scared and fearful we bring control
37:36
and order into this
37:37
SPEAKER_01: and so now she's she'll be the one you know right now it's great of like
37:42
why is this on the ground this should not be on the ground
37:44
Cohen was this you like
37:45
come pick up your trash sort of thing and it's like oh that's
37:47
kind of nice like
37:48
you're helping us clean but it's like we just made it a little
37:50
second mother yes
37:51
but at the same time we're like you don't you don't need to be
37:53
that yeah we want
37:54
you to be go be artistic and be free to like express yourself
37:57
through like all the
37:58
SPEAKER_01: stuff you love to do
38:00
but she cares more about like what is it clean and is it
38:02
orderly because that's
38:03
what we cared about like also nurture versus nature like what
38:06
where does that play
38:08
in how do you decipher that yeah yeah and that's I mean my wife
38:12
always asks me like
38:13
so are we done having kids before and I'm also like well no
38:17
because like I want an
38:18
SPEAKER_01: opportunity to get it right but I'm also
38:27
But a lot of it is like it's so it's so freeing when you do get
38:31
to realize okay
38:32
like we're just we're serving the Lord the best we can he's
38:34
given us these kids
38:35
we're stewarding them like they're ultimately his like he's
38:38
responsible for the
38:39
results but we need to do the best that we can yeah with the
38:41
time that we have and
38:43
like for me it's like my objective like I want to be able to be
38:47
in their life for
38:48
SPEAKER_01: as long as I'm alive
38:51
I pray that I outlive my kids or they outlive me but I want a
38:56
relationship with
38:56
them I don't want it to be like oh man I'm so glad I got out of
38:59
their house and
39:00
don't want to go back for the sake of like let me teach you
39:02
those lessons like I
39:05
don't know there's multiple people in my life that like I've
39:09
seen that version play
39:11
SPEAKER_00: out with them and their parents and it's so
39:14
sad and then now being a parent it's like man like the the I'm
39:19
gonna mess up the
39:20
phrasing that you just said a couple times it's like the love
39:23
phrase from Andy
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Stanley what does love require yeah it's like how do you
39:28
love them like is love the ultimate goal of like parenting
39:32
versus like showing them
39:35
the right like what's right yeah and dine on that hill and
39:38
being prideful in that
39:40
yeah and it's like man that's hard to because it's like I have
39:44
my own way of doing
39:45
things and a lot of the time it's going to be right because I
39:48
have more experience
39:49
SPEAKER_00: than they do but then it's like how do you say sorry often yeah and
39:56
model that in a way and it's like there are some people that
40:00
I've grew up with and
40:02
and that that did not have that experience and so they're like
40:06
yeah I'm actually
40:07
just not going to deal with my parents anymore and it's like oh
40:11
that's just like I
40:12
can't imagine our daughter coming to us and being like yeah you
40:16
know what like
40:17
you messed up so much that I like I just don't want to I'm
40:21
indifferent to this and
40:22
it's like oh man that would be heartbreaking yeah yeah like one
40:27
one tangible thing
40:28
that's coming up like recently is there's been so many times
40:33
where I'm like okay
40:35
roughly like they're they're down by 8 around 8 15 8 30 I might
40:39
be able to bring
40:39
out my laptop and like get a little bit more work done to kind
40:41
of catch up on the
40:42
SPEAKER_01: things that I needed to catch up on but they're not always down
40:46
SPEAKER_01: Matt Heisler mattheisler
41:04
but then there's not all the time but there's a lot of times
41:07
where I catch myself
41:08
like read the book there's going to be a time where they're not
41:10
going to ask me
41:11
this anymore because they just keep getting no or like I'll
41:14
just ignore that and
41:15
they're like well I'm not going to ask and I'm like that's
41:18
devastating of like
41:19
they're never going to ask this anymore or there's going to
41:20
come a time where like
41:22
I don't ask my dad to read me a book anymore so there's going
41:24
to come a time
41:25
hopefully that everybody stops well there's going to be some
41:27
version of a maturity
41:29
that changes that but yeah I think about that all the time just
41:33
from like a
41:35
SPEAKER_00: seasonal perspective of just like
41:38
they grow out of those things and do you want to be the person
41:42
that like they come
41:44
to and you say yes or and I was talking with David like a while
41:49
ago about that and
41:50
he was just like whatever it is I want to like mostly be the
41:53
guy that says like yes
41:55
within reason but like I want them to know that like they can
41:59
come to me and it's
42:01
mostly going to be a yes and like let's figure it out or this
42:04
is exciting or and I
42:06
SPEAKER_00: think like what a
42:08
cool way to think about parenting where it's like it's not the
42:11
person that's no
42:12
don't do that be careful like and there's discernment and
42:15
wisdom in that nuance too
42:18
SPEAKER_00: but yeah I think about that too where it's like
42:22
just an extra book or whatever it's like no you gotta get an
42:25
extra three minutes of
42:25
sleep yeah it's like you're gonna talk to yourself for an hour
42:29
anyway before you
42:30
even go to bed yeah exactly talk to yourself or you're probably
42:33
gonna do something
42:34
that's gonna be a waste of time yeah so it's like just take the
42:37
extra 15 minutes
42:38
read that book yeah you're gonna be so much happier yeah
42:41
somebody gave me the
42:42
SPEAKER_01: advice somewhere along the line too of
42:44
that the most important thing that you can give like a kid when
42:48
they're really
42:48
young is eye contact it's like it's not even really about what
42:52
you say it's
42:52
literally just are you looking at their eyes totally and that's
42:54
so hard to do
42:55
especially now with phones yeah it's like yeah yeah I'm
42:57
listening but I'm like yeah
42:59
it's scrolling or I'm doing something else maybe not even
43:01
scrolling it could be
43:02
like checking my calendar for tomorrow to make sure I'm
43:04
punctual or whatever it
43:05
looks the same to the kid but to them it's like I just I never
43:08
got my dad's eyes
43:09
SPEAKER_01: yeah like oh again another heartbreaker so it's like yeah
43:12
SPEAKER_01: as much as you can.
43:13
Again,
43:14
get down to another level or just make the eye contact to just
43:16
show like I'm seeing you.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm listening to you.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm paying attention.
43:19
I think about that a lot even just it's so convicting with like
43:22
the phones in
43:25
general where it's like man what a I don't know what are we
43:30
modeling when we I say
43:32
I don't want her to have a phone until she's like 25 or 37 or
43:37
whatever but it's
43:38
like the way that I'm modeling it it's like she's going to want
43:41
that immediately
43:44
and so it's just like yeah even that kind of stuff it's so
43:47
interesting My dad says
43:48
SPEAKER_01: that he loves me
43:50
SPEAKER_01: and the phone gets more eye contact than me.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: So this phone must be awesome.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: It must be more worthy of his love than me.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just like, how do you fight against that?
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
44:02
My daughter's really good now about she'll climb on the couch
44:05
with me if I am and
44:06
SPEAKER_01: kind of just like
44:07
a veg mode or whatever and she'll let it grab my face and just
44:10
turn it towards her
44:11
that's so adorable message received yes how can I help you get
44:15
this stupid thing
44:16
out of here yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah it's going to be
44:19
obsolete in five years
44:20
anyway yeah I know just be chatting with our AI thoughts yeah
44:24
exactly yeah I can't
44:26
SPEAKER_01: wait for the day
44:28
I just remember a conversation I don't know whenever we talked
44:31
last like a few
44:33
months or a few weeks ago around like why does Apple just have
44:36
not have a good AI
44:38
agent now right which is that's a whole other conversation yeah
44:44
but I am curious
44:45
SPEAKER_00: like
44:47
we're talking about parenting a lot like what is something that
44:50
you're confident in
44:51
that like is a trait that you you have and then I also want to
44:55
hear like something
44:56
that the wife has that you want the kids to like inhabit and
45:02
live into like what's
45:03
a trait that you're proud of that you have and and Kinsey yeah
45:09
yeah like she has
45:13
SPEAKER_00: too that you want the kids to like really live into yeah
45:17
I think the one that comes to mind I'm just trying to see if
45:23
there's anything
45:24
SPEAKER_01: better than this one but honestly I think it's like curiosity
45:31
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:33
Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:34
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:36
Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:37
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:39
Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:41
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:45
Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
45:54
but then also like to dream and like to think of like oh well
45:58
what about this and
45:59
what if this happened and I see that already with my daughter
46:05
Finley she's like she
46:06
just wants to know the answer or my son he's more like the
46:10
question and ask her and
46:11
he's like no no no don't tell me don't tell me I want to figure
46:13
this out myself
46:14
SPEAKER_01: sort of thing and so
46:16
someone like Finley is like that's who I actually want to work
46:18
with it more of just
46:19
like no be more curious yeah open-minded about certain things
46:22
and just you know
46:23
find out it's interesting because like it sounds like she's
46:27
more artistic in some
46:28
SPEAKER_00: way like that's more of an artistic frame of mind
46:31
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:33
Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:34
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:36
Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:37
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:39
Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:40
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:42
Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:43
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:45
Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:45
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:48
Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
46:59
now okay okay my oldest is actually yeah Finley is in her why
47:03
face okay of like why
47:04
this is that infuriating um it can be it all depends on the
47:10
right moment yeah yeah
47:10
SPEAKER_01: because again I'm saying I want her to be curious um but
47:15
SPEAKER_01: There's certain times where I'm like, now is just the time to listen.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: And we're trying to give you instruction and we want you to listen.
47:22
And we don't want you to necessarily always be rebellious
47:24
against what we're going to say.
47:25
And the nuance of asking questions versus obedience and
47:29
standing,
47:30
just falling in line.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: Especially with, we have four.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: So Kinsey will even tell you,
47:37
SPEAKER_01: she would probably not say,
47:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't want them to be curious and ask questions.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: She's like, I need them
47:42
to fall in line and do what I'm asking them to do because I'm
47:45
trying to manage four
47:46
SPEAKER_01: of them all at the same time by myself.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, and two of them are twins.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other dynamic.
47:55
Again,
47:56
I always just like to say it's tensions to be managed,
47:58
especially with people.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: It's usually going to be tensions.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: There's usually not a right or a wrong.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: There are extremes that you get to do not go outside these borders.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing this for your own protection.
48:08
Then you set up a gray area where it's like,
48:10
okay,
48:10
you can press a little bit.
48:11
You can climb up on the table for a little bit,
48:13
but just know if you fall off.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: You can ask for forgiveness a little bit more.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: But if you fall off, it's really going to hurt.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: But if they start jumping headfirst off the table,
48:21
SPEAKER_01: then that's like,
48:22
SPEAKER_01: okay,
48:22
SPEAKER_01: you crossed the board.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: I can't let you have brain damage.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you would get them taken away from you.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: That's more killing.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: That's hilarious.
48:33
what so curiosity would you say that's your trait or Kinsey's
48:37
that's my trait okay
48:39
yeah so Kinsey's trait um she she has a really really big heart
48:46
and is very
48:47
empathetic and so I'm already I'm definitely seeing that in my
48:50
daughter um Cohen
48:52
SPEAKER_01: not quite as much but he's still I mean he's three yeah um
48:55
but I'm still getting glimpses of it so that would be the
48:58
please get your mom's
48:59
empathy because she just knows people really well she can have
49:03
a sense of what
49:04
they're thinking and feeling before I even have any opportunity
49:08
I'm good at asking
49:09
SPEAKER_01: questions but I'm also like I probably have to ask 20 questions like oh
49:13
now I understand what you're thinking and feeling where she's
49:16
like I didn't even
49:16
have to ask any questions I just kind of knew it empathetically
49:19
of like just seeing
49:20
how they're postured or whatever that's a superpower I'm like
49:25
give that to the kids
49:26
please so yeah good questions from me being curious but then
49:32
having that natural
49:33
inclination of like I understand people and I know what they're
49:36
needing right now
49:38
SPEAKER_01: she's just so good at that that's awesome
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Well I feel like both of you guys together will make that happen.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: The collaboration that you guys have.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: It's both of our strengths so they'll definitely get some version of it.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: Well they have to otherwise they're just being belligerent I feel like.
49:57
you've transitioned like a lot of different roles sorry that
50:01
was like such a bad
50:02
transition speaking of transition and I'm curious like how have
50:07
you managed those
50:10
and this is a selfish question I guess most of these are
50:12
because I'm trying to
50:13
learn from you but like I'm currently in a season of transition
50:19
like were there
50:20
SPEAKER_00: were there like
50:21
best practices when it came to like navigating the ambiguity of
50:26
transition I don't
50:29
know for me I it always starts with you know Simon Sinek answer
50:35
but like starting
50:35
with why one it's like well why am I transitioning and what am
50:41
I transitioning to
50:42
SPEAKER_01: like what what do I want essentially my purpose to be
50:46
because once I'm clear on that you know I'll say it in a story
50:50
like we were in
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Colorado and we were moving back to California and literally
50:55
baby's about to be here any moment I don't have a job I don't
50:58
have any way of like
50:59
really making income but I was like I know that like I really
51:03
want to serve a high
51:04
mission high purpose organization I want my work to have impact
51:10
I want to have like
51:11
flexibility to be home with my kids I don't you know I was
51:14
thinking like consulting
51:15
that sounds really nice it fits with my strengths but a lot of
51:18
consultants they
51:19
travel Monday through Thursday and so immediately it was like
51:22
well that doesn't fit
51:23
SPEAKER_01: within my why
51:24
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:26
Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:27
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:31
Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:31
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:34
Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:36
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:38
Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:39
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:41
Mattheisler Mattheisler
51:43
transitions it's like it's really hard to like let that fully
51:47
go you do want to
51:48
think of new ideas yeah you have to have filters otherwise for
51:51
myself I get really
51:52
overwhelmed yeah and I get analysis paralysis and I get stuck
51:56
and so to me it's
51:58
like I'm a top-down guy of like I need to just start like well
52:01
what am I actually
52:02
trying to get towards other people start bottom-up they're like
52:04
I'm just get what's
52:05
the best thing I can do right now and they just start doing it
52:07
and eventually they
52:08
SPEAKER_01: find like oh because I was doing this because I found this why and
52:12
SPEAKER_01: but for me and for people like when I'm starting into something new or
52:16
transitioning I have to start with why and what am I headed
52:21
towards a little more
52:22
goal oriented North Star finding those sorts of things and then
52:27
I'm just like okay
52:28
SPEAKER_01: now I'm just going to start
52:29
Taking action within that and figure out where that goes and
52:32
typically it's talking
52:33
SPEAKER_01: with people yeah,
52:34
SPEAKER_00: so that's why we're here like well I mean yeah,
52:37
I think that's why I resonate with with you and I think we're
52:41
kindred spirits on
52:42
many levels which is why I wanted to ask that because I feel
52:44
like what I'm hearing
52:46
SPEAKER_00: you say is figure out like the why and then figure out like what you
52:51
based on that why like say no to and that creates like the
52:56
constraints to actually
52:58
take action on something and I feel like I've learned that
53:02
lesson the hard way by
53:03
like listening to a bunch of people and then all the people are
53:06
like this is what
53:07
you need to do you need to go over here and do because I'm
53:09
really good at the
53:10
connecting piece and relational piece which I think is like a
53:14
superpower in and of
53:15
SPEAKER_00: itself but then having the foundation of the why
53:20
is like what I've been building over time and still like
53:25
there's no there's
53:27
ambiguity to that but then like knowing your why enough to be
53:32
like no to the people
53:34
that are like oh you need to do this other thing and I think
53:37
that's like the
53:38
SPEAKER_00: confusingness of what I feel in the transition that I'm in now is like
53:43
I've done the thing that's always worked for me which is like
53:46
hanging out with
53:47
people leaning on the relationships like applying to jobs has
53:52
never been the way
53:52
that I've like gotten the next thing it's always been like what
53:56
are my skills the
53:57
experience that I've had in those and then like God obviously
54:02
like working through
54:03
SPEAKER_00: relationships
54:04
and right time right place in some way and then like proving
54:10
like through the
54:11
SPEAKER_00: experience that I've had in the past to like
54:14
be set for those roles or whatever but I think what I've
54:19
struggled with is like the
54:21
ambiguity of the why and the urgency of like gotta provide
54:25
gotta find this thing
54:27
instead of like taking the time to build the why enough to be
54:31
able to say no to
54:33
like good ideas that people have yeah and that is the hardest
54:39
part especially in
54:40
SPEAKER_01: the way that we think it's like I can't move forward until I have my why
54:45
but even if it's like it's half baked I would just run with
54:49
that and it all depends
54:50
on how much constraint you have and so for me when we were
54:53
making that move to
54:54
California immediately it became a very quick financial
54:58
constraint of like we have
55:00
to make some sort of money we have to make ends meet and so it
55:04
was like but we're
55:05
SPEAKER_01: all
55:06
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:08
Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:08
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:10
Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:11
SPEAKER_01: Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:21
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:24
Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:24
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:27
Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:28
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:30
Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:32
SPEAKER_00: Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
55:40
so we had our one bedroom apartment and you know that's where
55:43
it was like okay I
55:44
get to at least get a little bit coming in as I'm trying to
55:47
process this and figure
55:48
this out and discern but then that's once you get that covered
55:52
now it gives you a
55:52
little bit of space to be like okay let me play with this and
55:55
toy with this a
55:55
little bit longer totally and that gave us a year and it was
55:59
within that year that
56:00
I was like okay now I know what I want to do yeah now I feel
56:03
very I feel like I
56:04
have a clarity on where but it takes me a little while to do
56:07
that yeah yeah that's
56:09
SPEAKER_00: really good
56:10
I feel like even just talking back to what I'm hearing you say
56:14
is like giving me
56:15
clarity but talking it out man is just like such a huge piece
56:20
that's like one of
56:20
the beautiful things about these recorded conversations to me
56:24
is like this is how I
56:26
process stuff yes and so it's so so helpful to yeah well I'm
56:30
just like I think it's
56:31
a great idea because you're going to do it no matter what it's
56:34
just who you are
56:35
SPEAKER_01: might as well record it and
56:37
Well and I think like I'm so excited to look back on this and
56:41
use this as like a
56:42
journal of sorts to be like oh that's what I was thinking about
56:45
that thing then oh
56:45
yeah like that's uh that's an interesting idea I had back then
56:49
it's interesting to
56:50
see how it snowballed or collapsed yeah um or you didn't end up
56:54
anywhere close to
56:55
what you thought oh totally which is like most of the things
56:58
that I I think and uh
57:00
SPEAKER_00: and and
57:00
yeah I'm in the middle of but you're like I say that to to
57:04
think about the next
57:05
transition that you you started like a year ago with search
57:10
yeah we're at like 18
57:11
which is just like such a weird small world because the
57:15
basically the guy that you
57:16
took over for is like a high school teacher of mine and like
57:21
one of probably one of
57:22
SPEAKER_00: my like first mentors and what like a
57:27
beautiful man of God for lack of a better way of saying that
57:30
and someone who I
57:31
think like really lives out the idea of like people always
57:37
mission first yes and
57:39
yeah just like what a what a dude yeah and so I'm so curious
57:45
like as you kind of
57:47
SPEAKER_00: worked through that and and like first of all like I don't know in a in a
57:53
SPEAKER_00: one-minute pitch like what is search yeah yeah
57:58
speaking real quick more about Don it's easy when you're like I
58:05
like this person I
58:06
like where they're at in their life they're not a fool so
58:11
surely if I just do as
58:13
SPEAKER_01: they did I'll end up in a good spot
58:18
and so that was kind of the initial at least bug that was
58:20
planted to me for search
58:22
but yeah search our main goal is to help people take a step
58:26
towards God wherever
58:28
they're at you know ideally the people that we're working with
58:31
are the people that
58:32
aren't they don't know God in particular they haven't they
58:36
don't have a saving
58:36
SPEAKER_01: faith in Jesus Christ sort of thing and so it's really just
58:40
they're not going to step into a church so how do we get them
58:43
to take one step
58:45
closer to learning more about God asking the deeper questions
58:48
and a lot of times
58:49
there's just not a safe space to do those things so we try and
58:52
facilitate those
58:53
conversations yeah I guess my follow-up question to like what
58:58
search does is what
59:01
do you see when people are given permission to like ask those
59:05
honest questions
59:06
SPEAKER_00: about like God purpose hope
59:11
I have my own answers for that but I'm curious to understand
59:14
how you think about that.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: Well it speaks a little bit to the human condition where it's like
59:20
we all want to know who we are and we all want to know why
59:23
we're here and what our
59:24
purpose is and there's just not always the best place to do
59:28
those types of things
59:29
so when people actually feel like oh wow yes this person has
59:33
their own things that
59:34
they believe but they're kind of unbiased about what I'm going
59:37
to say and they're
59:38
willing to just help me work that out they just see it as a
59:42
gift and I even say
59:44
SPEAKER_01: like
59:45
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:48
Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:48
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:50
Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:51
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:53
Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:53
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:55
Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:56
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:57
Mattheisler Mattheisler
59:58
Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler Mattheisler
1:00:00
Mattheisler Mattheisler
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: Mattheisler
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: Hurt you more than serve you.
1:00:13
I think when people know that that's your heart behind it,
1:00:18
they see it as a gift.
1:00:21
The hard part is to keep that safe space alive and keep the
1:00:26
conversation going.
1:00:28
dang that's good yeah I feel like I don't know I'm always
1:00:32
curious about like how do
1:00:33
you cut through the surface level to get to those deeper
1:00:37
conversations and what I'm
1:00:39
hearing you say is like if you're actually living in that
1:00:42
liminal space of like
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: asking deep questions and not having judgment then it like
1:00:47
it does allow for those like that honesty to come through and
1:00:52
it's not meant to be
1:00:53
fast you kind of let them determine the speed so that's why
1:00:57
it's like questions
1:00:58
SPEAKER_01: asking questions and listening is like
1:01:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay, how are they responding to my questions?
1:01:04
SPEAKER_01: If they're not having it or they just don't even want to go there,
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: okay,
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: let's go play pickleball.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: Let's go get the blood flowing or whatever.
1:01:11
I'm not trying to land you and get you to a certain place on
1:01:14
each conversation.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_01: It's just like, great, what do we need to do?
1:01:17
What does the relationship require right now for us to move
1:01:19
this thing forward or
1:01:20
for you to trust me more or to respond to the questions that I
1:01:23
am kind of probing?
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
1:01:26
I'm gonna switch conversation a bit because I'm curious to get
1:01:31
your thoughts on
1:01:32
this too and I feel like we could talk about anything that
1:01:34
we're talking about for
1:01:35
a very long time what's like a leadership book that has like
1:01:39
shaped you I feel like
1:01:41
that's a question I just want to make a regular question
1:01:44
because I don't know my
1:01:45
list is ever expanding of books that I can read but I'm always
1:01:49
curious about the
1:01:50
people that I'm inspired by and that I want to be like and the
1:01:53
books that they read
1:01:55
oh man that's such a tough one I'm like um like the first one
1:01:59
that comes to mind is
1:02:00
boundaries boundaries in leadership okay it's a um Townsend and
1:02:06
Henry Cloud book
1:02:08
but it's it's one of those things where like because I am
1:02:12
especially for me because
1:02:13
I am more open-minded about things and I'm not like this is the
1:02:16
way it needs to be
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: and here's the process to follow um
1:02:21
it doesn't mean you don't have boundaries and you don't want to
1:02:23
lose yourself over
1:02:25
to someone else or like become codependent or whatever it is
1:02:28
and you don't want to
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: say like I'm just nothing
1:02:31
I have no opinions I have nothing you need to create boundaries
1:02:34
for yourself still
1:02:35
so that was really helpful for me especially coming out of the
1:02:38
military it was like
1:02:39
oh man I was just given all my boundaries how do I set
1:02:42
boundaries for myself how do
1:02:44
I even set values like what do I care about you know because it
1:02:47
was just it
1:02:47
literally was handed to you and then it's like okay read this
1:02:50
now read it again
1:02:51
okay now I'm going to hit you over the head with it and it was
1:02:53
like okay this was
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: handed to me though but that works depending on your mission
1:03:00
but especially when you get into life it's like no you need to
1:03:02
learn how to do that
1:03:03
for yourself but how to do it again in like a productive manner
1:03:06
to where it's like
1:03:07
I'm just going to throw everything off the table and then
1:03:09
re-figure it out so
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: boundaries in leadership um
1:03:15
that's it that's all you get yeah one book I think I think
1:03:17
that's I think that's
1:03:18
the one I'd leave with that's good so it's called boundaries
1:03:20
and leadership yeah
1:03:21
okay it's a series like he or he does like boundaries and
1:03:24
dating that's cheating
1:03:25
boundaries and dating boundaries and marriage but there's
1:03:28
boundaries boundaries all
1:03:30
right his name's Townsend yeah John Townsend and Henry Cloud oh
1:03:33
okay yeah cool
1:03:34
they've written a bunch of books together so sweet all right
1:03:37
who's the ghost writer
1:03:38
SPEAKER_01: and who's the actual writer yeah one of them comes from I think a more
1:03:42
they're both psychologists okay but one of them I feel like
1:03:45
comes from a more
1:03:46
pastoral side interesting and one of them comes from like a
1:03:48
clinical psychology
1:03:49
side okay sweet you got the science and you got the
1:03:52
spirituality yeah it's a good
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: good combination one two sweet how did you discover that book
1:03:59
I read Boundaries in Marriage and I really liked the way that
1:04:03
they set that up and
1:04:04
I was like oh they have another one called Boundaries in
1:04:07
Leadership and then
1:04:08
somebody else had then recommended it to me after I had bought
1:04:10
it inside of my
1:04:11
shelf for a long time nice I was like I have that book it's
1:04:13
always how it goes
1:04:14
probably actually read it it sounds like a book that you need
1:04:16
to buy and read a
1:04:18
paperback version of and then you can underline it yes it's not
1:04:21
an audible listen
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: it's a reference book that you go back to for sure oh that's good yeah
1:04:27
so every episode that I do I ask the previous guest a question
1:04:34
for I ask them to
1:04:36
ask a question for the next guest and so you happen to know the
1:04:41
previous guest but
1:04:43
the question that he asked was what's an idea or belief that
1:04:50
you held very
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: confidently at one point that you no longer agree with
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: Wow, what a great question.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_01: Classic.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_01: He's a very, very thoughtful man.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to sit with this one for a little while.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the...
1:05:21
SPEAKER_01: I need to formulate the idea.
1:05:23
but it's around the topic of like submission and what
1:05:27
submission means particularly
1:05:31
I think like there's submission in marriage and it's like you
1:05:34
know I think for a
1:05:36
while I was like man my wife just won't submit you know like
1:05:40
she won't allow me to
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: lead kind of thing and then I started to realize of like well you know
1:05:47
submission comes I feel like from respect as well and like even
1:05:50
like Christ you
1:05:51
know he asked us to submit to him but it's like okay well I can
1:05:54
respect him and
1:05:56
then you read boundaries in marriage yes yes and so I think I
1:06:00
think the idea is
1:06:00
like the one that just comes to mind at least is like I was
1:06:05
expecting my wife to
1:06:06
take the first step in submission and then and then love comes
1:06:09
or then my role
1:06:10
comes or whatever it might be and it's like why don't you just
1:06:13
lead and love and be
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: respectable and
1:06:16
SPEAKER_01: and then submission will come.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_01: Especially when it's with people.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: With Jesus and He tells you to do something,
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do it because of who you are.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's the same thing.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I'll submit because of who you are.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_01: if you're not somebody that I should be submissive to,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_01: then I don't know that I should.
1:06:35
well and talk about the model of Jesus where it's like I'm
1:06:39
gonna like clean your
1:06:41
feet even though like nobody told me to do that right and it's
1:06:46
the creator of the
1:06:47
universe washing your feet is that really like yeah nothing
1:06:52
there's nothing that
1:06:52
merited that yeah yeah man yeah talk about a servant right
1:06:57
leadership model where
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: it's just like oh yeah how do you die to yourself all the time yeah
1:07:03
yes oh gosh yeah that's yeah marriage is hard but it's like one
1:07:08
of those things
1:07:08
where like this it's the best training ground I've learned I
1:07:11
feel like all my best
1:07:12
like most heart-wrenching lessons through marriage yeah and
1:07:16
that's why I think I'm
1:07:19
100% sold out of like that is the reason why marriage is
1:07:21
supposed to be with one
1:07:22
man and one woman and it's supposed to be one time yeah because
1:07:25
it's going to get
1:07:26
hard and it's going to get sticky and if you have the option
1:07:28
like dude I'd rather
1:07:29
SPEAKER_01: just get out of this yeah it's like well then you would
1:07:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_01: Unless something that you really expect tells you not to.
1:07:34
Also like the amount of gains and intimacy and depth that is
1:07:40
built with that person
1:07:41
SPEAKER_00: in those challenges is like
1:07:44
man starting over again just sounds like so so challenge and
1:07:50
then not to mention
1:07:51
like the baggage that comes along and oh yeah and there's not
1:07:56
not a way to do that
1:07:58
in a redeemed way I think sure but man it's everything that I
1:08:03
hear is very painful
1:08:04
to yes to work through that and so it's like which pain do you
1:08:07
want yeah yes
1:08:09
yeah there's no getting out of the pain yeah yeah what's a
1:08:13
what's a question you
1:08:14
have for our next guest hmm yeah trying to just think of you're
1:08:20
sitting there with
1:08:20
SPEAKER_01: him or her you get to ask this question hmm I would want to know
1:08:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, two-parter.
1:08:34
What was something that you learned through a good thing where
1:08:39
it was top of the
1:08:40
world moment or you did something really well and you learned a
1:08:42
lesson there?
1:08:43
And then what's something that you learned through a really
1:08:45
deep,
1:08:46
hard pain?
1:08:49
SPEAKER_01: And would you take either of those away?
1:08:52
SPEAKER_01: It's okay, three-parter.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_00: Sweet.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited too.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_00: That's the thing I love about this is like a
1:08:58
I don't have to answer it I just wait for the next person I'm
1:09:03
always excited about
1:09:05
that My context behind that is like all my painful lessons that
1:09:10
I have learned I'm
1:09:12
like oh I would never take those away but some of my successes
1:09:15
that I've had I'm
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: like dude I can honestly live without them I'd probably be okay
1:09:20
I feel like that is kind of the way we humans learn in general
1:09:27
like success feels
1:09:28
good but like I think we do most of our learning through like
1:09:33
failure and I don't
1:09:36
know if that's like just how humans are wired for some like
1:09:41
spiritual reason where
1:09:42
SPEAKER_00: it's like
1:09:43
no no no this constant coming back and surrendering like your
1:09:47
pride and your your
1:09:49
self to like Jesus and his way and being like actually success
1:09:54
is like learning in
1:09:55
the challenge and right I don't know I think our version of
1:09:59
success is definitely
1:09:59
twisted but um well it's something yeah it's also something
1:10:03
that we won't have in
1:10:04
heaven yeah so like hey get as much pain as you can because
1:10:08
you're not going to get
1:10:08
SPEAKER_01: it for the most of the
1:10:14
SPEAKER_00: That's a very interesting perspective.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_00: I have not thought of it that way.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: I like to avoid pain.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_01: There's a couple of places,
1:10:23
SPEAKER_01: but I'm thinking like in Ephesians when it says,
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: rejoice in your trials and in your sufferings.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: not because you're some sadistic freak or whatever,
1:10:33
SPEAKER_01: but it's because that is where you learn the most,
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: for better or for worse.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: Well,
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: I think about this season of transition,
1:10:41
SPEAKER_00: it's not been easy,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: but I've definitely learned a lot through it and will continue to,
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_00: yeah thanks for taking the time man dude this is fun I love having these
1:10:51
conversations with you and I'm glad that we have it on the
1:10:55
internet forever yeah I
1:10:57
will say you must keep doing this okay I know it's gonna get
1:11:01
like should I do this
1:11:02
SPEAKER_01: is there enough time but at this point I'm pretty
1:11:08
committed to the idea of doing this just because I find it
1:11:12
super valuable for
1:11:13
myself and I'm so so grateful that the people that I have asked
1:11:19
are willing to step
1:11:20
into like taking a bunch of time during their busy lives to
1:11:25
like have these
1:11:26
SPEAKER_00: conversations
1:11:28
because it's really in service of like the working title right
1:11:32
now is I don't know
1:11:33
you for like the name of the podcast and it's really like very
1:11:37
selfish it's like
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm on the search of trying to figure myself out
1:11:42
and so like I desperately want to be around the people that are
1:11:48
inspiring me that
1:11:49
are like giving me a lot of life and learning from them so that
1:11:54
like I can take
1:11:55
whatever gains they've they've gleaned from like the army and
1:12:01
of course like it's
1:12:02
SPEAKER_00: never going to be the same as if I was actually in it but
1:12:06
I don't know growing up as the youngest of three brothers a lot
1:12:12
of my experience
1:12:13
has been learning from their mistakes and their experiences and
1:12:18
so I've just
1:12:19
thought about how do I get people's gains of the things that
1:12:24
they've already
1:12:25
SPEAKER_00: learned in life without having to
1:12:27
go through the painful experiences of that yeah and so this has
1:12:31
been such a
1:12:32
beautiful avenue for that because people are so giving and
1:12:36
thoughtful and generous
1:12:38
with their time and sharing their expertise and experiences in
1:12:43
general and so I'm
1:12:45
just super grateful and yeah yeah I don't want to stop doing it
1:12:50
yeah good and yeah
1:12:52
SPEAKER_01: time is like our greatest resource that we can
1:12:54
totally which is why I'm so grateful that like people are cool
1:12:57
with like having a
1:12:58
conversation for an hour and a half or whatever yeah it's super
1:13:02
meaningful to me so
1:13:03
thank you for giving lots of that time yeah all right you're
1:13:07
welcome we'll see you
1:13:08
SPEAKER_00: on the flippity flop yeah we're definitely going to cut that