Latest / El futuro fue ayer con Juan Guillermo Martín / La invención de la alfarería

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La invención de la alfarería · El futuro fue ayer con Juan Guillermo Martín

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The future was Yesterday is a podcast of archaeology where ghosts, conspiracy theories and
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aliens have no place. I am Jun Guillermo Martín archaeologist and university professor and
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with different specialists. It would be scientifically addressing our fascinating past, a past
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that offers us answers to face the future. Welcome to the podcast The Future
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Fayer. I' m Jua Guillermo Martín archaeologist. Today we are going to
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talk about a key invention for the human being that has, among other things,
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a decisive impact on gastronomy. It is the invention of tea a rather
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complex technical process, without any doubt, one of the great inventions of humanity.
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To talk about it, I have a very special guest. This is
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Augusto Yuela Caiser at ease welcome. Thank you very much for the invitation to
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participate. For those who do not know him, Augusto Yuelas Anthropologist from the
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University of the Andes and PhD in Archaeology from the University of Pittsburgh. He
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is currently an associate professor at the University of Florida in Gamesville. His work
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has focused on historical ecology, the history of science, the ecology of religion
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and the indigenous peoples of South America, especially the Amazon and the Andes.
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He is the researcher who discovered and investigated the oldest ceramics on the American continent.
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So to get into matters at ease, we' d have to explain
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to the audience how complicated pottery is. It' s one more invention has
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some level of complexity. The invention of pottery is perhaps the second most important
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event in the history of mankind. To give an idea that it' s
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not something that evolved so easily. With regard to our own evolution, it
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should be recalled that the first most relevant invention was the lithic artifacts that have
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been found in Africa associated with our process of human evolution. These lithic artifacts,
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which are like species of axes that kind of technology. It must be
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thought that it lasted almost two million years on the planet and was arranged from
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Africa to Europe and Asia and became the dominant technology. During that time we
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didn' t have any other technology that we knew had the impact that making
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those axes particularly required a practically neurological job, in the sense that our human
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brain had to be modified, to be willing to make guidelines for making axes
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that are the same from North Africa to China That implies the success of that
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technology, which once discovered, let' s say the recipe for making them
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is transmitted. Then comes the second most relevant invention, which is ceramics and
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something very similar occurs with the difference that there are independent invention processes in the
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case of lithic technology, not stone artifacts. This knowledge was disseminated in Africa
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and then transmitted to the rest of the planet. With us we are Sappins.
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Sapiens. With ceramic technology there is a different phenomenon and it required to
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get to know and develop techniques. Let' s say, to develop a
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recipe to manufacture, for fans, these artifacts that eventually became the basis of
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culinary around the world. And we know today that there are not so many
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centers of invention where this ceramic was given, very well at ease in the
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case, already concentrating on the American continent, where and when ceramics are invented,
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the phenomenon curiously is not in the way that operates the possibility of getting
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to manufacture a ceramic. The phenomenon is no different than in Asia. For
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example, where is the oldest ceramic. In other words, these processes have
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something to do with the same structure of understanding of the human brain with respect
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to the materials at its disposal, such as clays, pastures, plasticity,
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moisture. In clay itself there are a number of basic elements that are impartable
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and similar. It' s like if you want to go win people,
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discover the same recipe to reach a final product that is a ceramic pot.
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So let' s say the recipe for inventing ceramics on the border of what
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today is Cruz and China, where is the oldest ceramics on the planet,
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which date almost to twenty- one thousand years before Christ. The process is
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very similar to the process that took place on the Atlantic coast of Colombia,
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in the area of San Jacinto Bolívar. But in the case of Colombia and
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South America and the continent there is about six thousand before Christ, which begins
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that process. Then it is a process much later than Asian, but the
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formula given is very similar to that found in the fracture and in the technology
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of making these elements in Asia. In the case of America, we would
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have San Jacinto as one of the pottery invention sites in northern South America.
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But we also have other sites, such as Taperiña in the Amazon, which
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is almost seven thousand years old. They' re places in Ecuador, in
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Panama. Here, too, we have some, let' s say,
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sources of invention that spread that knowledge throughout the rest of the continent. That
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question is important for several reasons and is that scientific academic arguments have been made
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in certain parts of the world for decades. This is where a hypothesis is
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established and continues to help confirm that hypothesis. Initially it was thought that it
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was, in the case of Valdivia, Ecuador, the oldest ceramic on the
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continent. The explanation given is that this ceramic has not been invented locally,
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but that it had arrived in Japan from a society called the Comón and then
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that is, some of them migrated for some circumstances to the coast of Ecuador
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with this ceramic, which had very specific characteristics, which is ceramic made,
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using as degreasing, which is a matter that is added so that the clay
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does not break, when the clay is frightened with heat, with the thermal
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shock does not break. And this is a usually vegetable fiber of grass that
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was used in the case of humon ceramics that they find in Ecuador. They
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don' t have those degras before, they don' t have those characteristics.
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But the argument is made around the designs of the decorations, which was
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perfectly absurd, because simply, for example, a cart that resembles another does
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not mean that it is the same design, it was invented, built that
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design at the same time, but it can simply be copied or sided in
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a casual way and has no relation whatsoever. Although there was contrary evidence regarding
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the possibility that Ecuador was the site of origin of ceramics from all over the
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continent of the Americas, that shop was pushed, say for almost thirty years
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later, in Brazil they find another site with a few fragments, also with
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material that does not usually have to do with those with early ceramics, using
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shell fragments from a shell of these places where people consumed clams and other types
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of valbus of that style and there were fragments of ceramics that present about eight
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thousand before Christ. Even in a scientific journal like Sáinz the argument is presented,
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but since then there has been no other kind of evidence to corroborate or
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verify or confirm that antiquity, nor one of the sites found in all that
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part of the Amazon, this parrion that has been excavated in more recent times,
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contributes to confirm that hypothesis. So, that idea is there and if
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some keep it lately, to the south of Brazil, there is another archaeological
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site that has also been potentially launched as a domestication site or early processing.
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Let' s say plants and, at the same time, ceramic production.
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However, the evidence is also not solid, because it turns out that,
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apparently in the construction of mounds to avoid moisture, people burned chairs, threw
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them away without adding any sense of direction and reason. They were thrown on
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the floor and served as insulation for human occupation, but it was not for
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making ceramic pots. Then that is interpreted, it interprets you as a very
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old ceramic, probably about three thousand four- skin before Christ and it does
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happen with the rest of the continent. There are, say, technological innovations
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that are presented as sites of ceramic origin. And what I have dealt with
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from these years to a few days and if we continue to work on the
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subject, let' s say that the problem is not really a matter of
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getting dates that looks like a place was older than any other place, as
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in the case of San Jacinto, even that, as I said before,
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dates from around Semila before Christ and presents itself as the oldest archaeological site,
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of ceramic invention, but it is not innovation. Then comes the problem and
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it' s the argument that I' ve been making these last few years,
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is that you have to show that there really is an invention, that
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people invented, not that they innovated. And that' s two very different
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questions to be able to answer true, so innovation is that it simply adds
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something new or improvements to a product that already exists. Let' s say
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how it happened with cell phones, which were gradually being said to be transforming
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and each time a new technological aspect was added. But the invention of the
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cell phone was a unique event. From there all the completion processes that have
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been given cannot be treated as invention processes. You can' t say Apple
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invented the cell phone. Yeah, he invented a particular technology to see is
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how we see we interact with the cell phone, but it' s innovation
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that he does. There is no invention of a specific moment, as was
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the case with the first cell phones. It' s the same with ceramics.
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So the argument we are making today is that we have to demonstrate the
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processes of innovation that are different from the processes. Also that you have to
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prove and the most important thing is invention, that is, how people invent
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something with this case ceramic technology. And the most important thing in that process
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of showing and with evidence is that it can be verified that, indeed,
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an invention is taking place. An invention usually means that there is a process
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of experimentation and the Atlantic coast is lucky, let' s say and the
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whole area around the savannahs of San Jacinto, of the Serrania of San Lucas,
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all on the coast, to practically the valley, even the upper part
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of the Cauca River, of the middle course of the Magdalena River, until
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the mouth skirts of the mountain range, do Río César. In all that
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area there are potentially vegetable fiber ceramics and it' s what we call San
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Jacinto' s, I mean, it' s more of a horizon where
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at one point people discovered this sobramic or invented it and then this process got
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irradiated. And that' s an innovation site and I can explain a little
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intention why it' s given before making that differentiation. What are the basic
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characteristics of this early ceramic that, as it well says, are a horizon
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that we have already been identifying with the development of archaeology in this area of
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the Caribbean region, but which are its general characteristics, the main characteristics of
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San Jacinto ceramics, is equal to the ceramics set in the Amu River between
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the Chinese border and the Russian border. What they said were about twenty thousand
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twenty thousand before Christ, that is, people begin mixing clay, with grass,
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with fibers and trying to create a certain solidity and eventually with relatively low
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- temperature burns of four hundred and fifty maximum five hundred and fifty. Not
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even 500 degrees Celsius is reached, it already achieves a solidity. Start with
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a model. Let' s say straight from these clays mixing with the grasses
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and then putting on a heat source perfectly simply wood put around and manages to
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be tempeta height for the cooking of the ceramics. Let us say the cohesion
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of the void and it already achieves its solidity. They are very rudimentary ceramics
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of a certain majority. They don' t serve to cook directly, because
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they' re so porous that say the liquids end up watering down the walls.
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True then it does not allow to say one through time. They do
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not allow a direct fire transmission, directly from the stove to what is to
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be cooked inside, but they function as an insulation rather a thermal insulation.
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So you don' t get the temperatures to cook food, so initially what
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has been and is maintained as a hypothesis is that it' s mainly used
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for social events to serve at that time food already cooked or possibly liquors,
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even fermented, fermented beverages that people consume at a family meeting, let'
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s say in very specific places where they' re living. In this case
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it is a ceramic that is associated with a people who move during the year
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from production sites, for example palms, to turtle collection sites in close to
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the ravines and rivers to hunting inside, deer hunting and also collecting other fruits,
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processing plants in different areas. Of what are the savannahs of his writing
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Bolivar, those are the wooded ones. Also then let' s say it
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is used very specifically as a social artifact, rather than cooking food, more
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is to serve food, but in a social role, that is, in
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relationships of individuals, families, small families, not so big, true,
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possibly when they meet, they reach a maximum of 100 people or something.
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And there he returned to the question between invention and innovation, because that ceramic
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that we have been finding and that you excavated in the late nineties in San
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Jacinto apparently has characteristics that extend, as you said, on a wide ceramic
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horizon throughout the Caribbean region. That would be about innovation, that is,
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a knowledge of a procedure that will improve over time these populations. That would
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mean that we then have a much older invention site. That site which archaeological
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characteristics should have that what is interesting is that, in the case of the
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ceramic sequence we have early ceramics for the North Coast, the only one we
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have found that has those invention characteristics is San Jacinto Uno. There is already
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another archaeological site, which is a little more recent, called San Jacinto Dos,
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where you can already see technological innovation. There is also another important archaeological
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site, called Las Palmas, where you can also see new technological innovations all
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near the municipality, because Guambo, El Carmen, de Bolívar, de San
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Jacinto, in all that area is where we say this early focus of innovation
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and invention, and from there you begin to water for the rest quickly,
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the rest of the coast, that innovation took almost two thousand years to achieve
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another significant change, that is the invention. Let' s say, ceramic
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innovation, using a dedrazant, which is using the sands of rivers or finding
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also sources that had the right mix to sew. These pots that we say
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were excellent heat transmitters and those are those that were used for the direct cooking
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of food, where it can be put like the casseroles of the guamo tolima
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to the ceramics that were used for the traditional cuisine made in different villages of
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Colombia, and those directly transmitted the heat to what was to be consumed inside,
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the soups or anything that went to cook. But that' s pretty
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much it. That drastic final innovation where all ceramics are abandoned. The production
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of vegetable fiber ceramics is about close on average to ns We are on the
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Atlantic coast two thousand, two thousand five hundred to C. And there'
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s two thousand of these technological changes, and that' s where all those
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ceramics are abandoned. That way of making those early ceramics using vegetable greases,
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because effectively, it can no longer compete with this technological innovation and gradually disappears.
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In the case of San Jacinto we talk about invention because curiously there we
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have people starting, individuals, they begin to mix the clays of the ravines
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with these elements of pastures. So, in that process, how we know
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there' s invention is because people are cutting pastures in different ways. They
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' re mixing pasta in different ways. It treats different techniques, putting the
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horizontal pastures and pressing them against the clays, mixing the crudely with the clays,
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achieving that this mass that achieves up to two and sometimes three centimeters of
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grossol that become the walls of the vessel. In short, there are even
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different plant types, of plant plants for example, these called angel beards are
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also used as elements in that process of experimentation where they leave tubular forms inside
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the clay. Once it burns, once the ceramics are cooked. Of course,
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this, this plant material evaporates, let' s say to some extent
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by temperature, it cooks, it carbonizes and when the temperature reaches a certain
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range, it vaporizes and the voids remain inside with impressions of the footprints,
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of the pastures or of the ligans, these of angel. Then there'
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s the ceramics left. Pretty porous. Let' s say. Innovation is
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seen in the future. It is when the intuition of new techniques appears that
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improve the quality and develop a recipe, a recipe in how a pot is
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made. Then there are the people. Let us say the Community, which
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is an individual activity, is not an activity, let us say, specialized.
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Start adopting this new technique where the recipe is effective. It' s
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like when someone uses Grandma' s recipe to cook something and then realizes that
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the recipe everyone uses to make it the same ayako or whatever dish we eat.
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Right, so let' s say that recipe wasn' t known.
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He came to know each other when he came to an agreement more or less.
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It was already beginning to be seen in the 3, 000, in
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which we would say a little before Christ, that the technique had already reached
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a level at which it was already transmitted as practically a recipe. But before
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that, between six thousand and three thousand, there' s no recipe.
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So, then, when you look at, for example, the mass that
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was used for making the buns and you see that they are empty, but
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relatively small. It is observed that each individual does so differently. So how
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he mixes it, how we say it, he loves it, how long
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he loves it. That' s all leaving different brands in manufacturing. So
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what we have of evidence really is the individuality of each person in that community
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in the San Jacinto area, experimenting with that plasticity and looking to see if
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it succeeds in being better than the other. But this place process remains for
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a very long time until it stabilizes. Let' s say a formula where
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you already know how to mix pasta. Well, right, with respect to
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clay, the amount of grass that needs to be added, that is,
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it gets to work already as practically percentages of what is used for the mass.
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In the initial stage we observe in San Jacinto is the whole process where
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people are all the time experimenting with the percentage that is required to achieve this
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mass with which the pot is manufactured in a direct modeling way. Directly it
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is given shape to the empty one and then comes the set, which is
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quite unique. Also then the problem is that one thing from the stylistic part
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that was already giving us an idea that these variations let' s say in
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the designs, each one seemed very unique, but of course using a similar
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technique. But each design in San Jacinto and is observed, for example,
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in the creation that is here in the Museum of Mapuca, at the University
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of the North this diversity of designs is observed are similar, but each object
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is different. You see the identity of each individual leaving his or her way
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of expressing it in the construction of the oyas and how he or she decorates
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it. But the dough has that, too. So we would say in
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the nineties we had proposed that, indeed, Saint Jacinto was the site of
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invention. But the only evidence that we had solid was that experimentation that we
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observed in terms of design, that everyone did what they wanted, and that
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goes with the designs of the animals that were added to them, they were
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added to the ceramics, to the pots and all the incisions circles and whatever
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they wanted to say of incisions and demands that were made to decorate the ceramics.
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It came from that, that there people were experimenting with the technique.
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The problem is that we could not prove that moment that the same thing was
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also being done. Let' s say with the formula of how ceramics are
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made, and that took us a good time until it came to a colleague
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who was the person who was always pending, true that he came to study
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with me and we were able to work in detail and formulas which are the
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formulas for the bad future of ceramics. And that' s what we found.
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It is this gigantic diversity in which we can see individuality also in how
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pastes were mixed with clays, orientations, quantities, density, inclusions of other
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elements as well as sands. Sometimes true, but they' re arbitrary.
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In short, there are a number of characteristics that make it practically possible to
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identify in every jewel that was made in the area of San Jacinto the individuality,
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that is, that an individual made it and did not do it en
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masse. No mass production is only for individual self- consumption. That self
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- consumption of that invention is maintained for a very long time, as I
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said perhaps two thousand three thousand years, until at a given moment people adopt
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our new technical standards and enter to suffer the peoples specialized in the production of
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ceramics, which are those who take advantage of abundance. Let' s say
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the basic resource that was required to manufacture and make and expand these formulas.
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Let' s say ceramic manufacturing that then everyone incorporates and stylizes differently in what
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we call Colombian archaeological cultures. In the rest of the Americas, no part
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of the continent has been able to demonstrate experimentation. And that is what we
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have achieved so far. We already have the evidence that we hope to publish
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soon all that evidence, demonstrating this process of perfect august experimentation. And there
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' s one thing we hadn' t just mentioned about the variety and the
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designs. In other words, it is a ceramic that, stylistically, looks
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very elaborate, indeed, not very homogeneous. It is evident that it is
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a manufactured, as you well say, individual, but it shows a very
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powerful artistic expression in each of those designs. That is also seen in the
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other early ceramics found here on the continent. Or that' s also a
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very characteristic of San Jacinto ceramics. That' s what we' re saying,
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it' s a ceramic crassistra of which they' re associated with that
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San Jacinto group. Nowhere else can you see that diversity of experimentation in design
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and aesthetics, let' s say, and in the art of thinking and
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putting in that imaginary certain particular designs of animals and how to represent a toad
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in a ceramic or a lizard, there are many small animals, usually the
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ones that are illustrating faces of character. There are none of the other archaeological
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sites or the entire Colombian continent. There' s a place in Florida,
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where there' s actually vegetable fiber ceramics, but it doesn' t have
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that variability. Let' s say of the designs and neither is there a
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process of invention, but it simply appears from the technique abruptly temporarily and no
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site of origin can be traced. This early fiber ceramic in Florida has been
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posed since the 1960s that its origin may be related to northern Colombia. That
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has already been put as a hypothesis for recent years. In Cuba it was
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found, but in the eastern part of Cuba also sites with vegetable fiber ceramics
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very similar to those of Florida. But you don' t understand if that
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trajectory comes from Colombia, maybe with people who in shipwrecks in Cuba introduce it
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and then move to Florida. But it can' t be done. It
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' s still all very speculative. We are not clear how it is that
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this ceramic, which are the only sources sites with ceramics of that type that
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occurs on the American continent, then there is a use, say of other
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plants and fungi on some sides for making ceramics, but there are no other
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contexts and in decades say hundreds of more recent years, then no, no,
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but that is unique. That part of the Stylistic of San Jacinto is
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unique on the continent, just as the part of the experimentation of pastas,
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and that was what allowed us to initially state that it was the site of
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invention of ceramic origins. Hence the beginning of the watering of that invention,
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which is certain by the coast of song. First and then the technology is
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ignored here on the coast also with the use of sands, in the manufacture
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of pots, and then it is temporarily displaced and other neighboring societies begin to
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incorporate them. And you can see almost that if you make a map with
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the dates it looks like it' s the curves, like when you throw
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a stone in a water, in the water in a lake and the waves
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go watering. The dates correspond more or less to those waves of sound displacement,
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but this is the wave of displacement, let' s say, technological
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and that undoubtedly, on other sides also innovated, for example, with painting
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or achieving higher temperatures in the manufacture of ceramics. So it happened and each
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one is giving it this ceramic and it is becoming its own, creating those
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technological innovations and that variability that makes, for example, ceramics and beautiful ceramics,
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for example, of the Peruvian coast a certain afternoon and that has its
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own technological characteristics also of development in that sense. But that' s all
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that' s technological innovation. The other technique that needs to be mentioned in
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passing and is something that we never talked about, is that the other third
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great technology let' s say after ceramics. I suspect it also happened in
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Colombia and is the metallurgy. Then we can expect as archaeologists to find in
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the future in some area of Colombia and there are areas more likely than others
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where metallurgy was invented. And then that technique was also dispersed from here to
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the rest of the continent. In other words, reaching that knowledge took some
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time and dispersal took a long time. They stopped an idea. While in
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the valley of Cauca people are already experimenting and in the area of Tumaco with
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very early metallurgy, perhaps reaching almost two thousand before Christ one thousand eight hundred
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thousand five hundred, only metallur appears in almost five hundred six hundred of Christ
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in Mexico, that is, it took almost two thousand years to get that
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technology from here, from South America, from Colombia to Mexico. And what
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I mean by that is a very particular phenomenon that there is one thing that
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is of interest to archaeologists is because it seems that there are societies that adopt
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or integrate these technologies more quickly than others. So, that' s a
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phenomenon so we have also observed that, despite sometimes we have societies that had
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ceramics and on the side there can be perfectly societies with a lot of complexity
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and that it takes a thousand two thousand years to push the ceramics that is
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on the other side of the river technological innovation. But that' s not
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a single problem that exists. Let' s say archeological is a universal problem
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that' s hit today. True, technology innovation or inventions many, many
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times, some of them take a long time in s s s R s
32:59
NS, incorporated by many societies on the planet, and there is always some
33:04
resistance. So, let' s say one of the typical phenomena of technologies
33:09
that has to be started with any technological invention, is that technology is never
33:15
going to be like this, is very successful or is clearly visible, because
33:21
it is important. Technology is never going to be accepted quickly, but,
33:24
on the contrary, it has to break down social barriers that exist in every
33:30
society. Let' s say every population in the world to be incorporated,
33:35
and that can take time, it can be with any technology, months,
33:38
years or decades, and that we keep watching even on the planet. So
33:44
that' s a point I wanted to make clear. We imagine, obviously,
33:50
the invention of pottery and what it surely meant in gastronomy, the possibility
33:54
of storing food, of cooking it, not with those early ceramics that we
34:00
know that if we put them on fire, they burst because they were very
34:02
porous. But it' s an invention that changes other things the way you
34:07
express it. I don' t know the art of transmitting information through those
34:14
designs. It' s also another advantage that pottery gives us and that we
34:19
didn' t have before. And I ask you a question that students usually
34:22
ask me is that and then before how they cooked. Interestingly, people don
34:28
' t need pots to cook. A lot of people, for example,
34:32
in the case is amazing. There are many parts of the planet still where
34:37
we, as human beings, consume meats without cooking, because you will always
34:42
make the approach that you always have to cook meat and raw meat kills you.
34:46
But if you can go to a restaurant or Ethiopia. In any of
34:50
the cities of Ethiopia. You can eat raw meat in any restaurant and they
34:55
cut it there, they put you in blocke and you eat it directly from
35:00
beef to stomach. Well, the French also have something like ground meat on
35:05
many sides. Well we do it with the fish of the suchi, for
35:09
example, true is not cooked most of the suchis. So let' s
35:15
say there are many ways to consume and remember that perhaps another important invention was
35:21
to know the fermentation of food, and the fermentation of food, for example,
35:29
drinks, is what really ends up cleaning the water. Right, so
35:34
people can imagine hunters who used to take water directly from the gorges all the
35:39
health problems they had right. And that' s why, when human remains
35:45
are examined over time, one of the things that certainly improved ceramics was life
35:50
expectancy. Then that' s where the ceramics appear. Indeed, it improved
36:00
quality in the digestion of food from being incorporated into the body, but it
36:06
also suspended the harmful effect of worm bacteria and other animals that diminished the life
36:15
expectancy of the human being. Then it is to be expected that, the
36:20
moment people incorporate the cooking of food and begin to make their soups and their
36:24
cooked, effectively in the life expectancy of societies improves and that is due in
36:30
the human remains at burials And all this and indeed, is observed everywhere there
36:35
are societies where, for example, demographically and surprising because that is something that
36:40
would go against that logic. They continued to grow despite not cooking with food
36:47
in pots, but they had other food coercion technologies that we say killed all
36:52
these potential viruses and bacteria that could be ingested in food, as is the
36:59
case on the Peruvian coast, true, where people got consumed many foods in
37:02
very different ways, but many of them are direct fire or fermentation or with
37:09
ovens also to cook food, and that avoided the need, say, to
37:16
necessarily incorporate the pots and they were very resistant, let' s say the
37:22
whole Peruvian Coast, from the border of what is Ecuador, they were very
37:27
resistant to adopting or incorporating ceramic technology, while in Ecuador they were already cooking
37:31
with food, in the Peruvian Coast no, but that doesn' t mean
37:37
that the ones are more gross than the others. Nothing like that, because
37:42
at the same time, one of the greatest complexities that occurred, say on
37:45
the planet, with urbanism, with cities, was given the Peruvian Coast and
37:51
there was no ceramic, with gigantic networks of commerce, with construction of monuments
37:59
in us pyramids huge ritual sites, as has not been given anywhere on the
38:05
continent by that time, and ceramics had no role in that process, but
38:09
that obeys those had food technologies or digest food in a very different way.
38:17
And fermentation was also very important in that process. In the hot ones also
38:23
the ajis. It must be remembered that it is one thing that is true
38:28
that you mention that the aji were very important also on the Peruvian coast and
38:32
the anhis are anti bacteria. It then prevents foods from becoming easily contaminated with
38:39
bacteria because of the type of acidity and effect they have on bacteria. So
38:46
that was one of those elements that is very important to say in the Peruvian
38:52
diet and in the archaeological evidence, as is the use of the agi from
38:54
very early. Virtually the ajies in Peru appear as in the fact thousand before
38:59
Christ, let' s say that is a component that makes it different in
39:04
our case, from the Atlantic coast of Colombia. Once it appears in these
39:07
diets, let' s say the only technology you' re competing with ceramics.
39:13
Once we say we change to these vessels for collection with this technological innovation.
39:20
From sand greases is that you can feed, let' s say store,
39:29
you can cook for some time and create them. Let' s say
39:32
a very diverse type of food recipes using ceramics. So let' s say
39:38
the diet is extended to a certain extent. But it must be remembered that
39:44
the great difference between the Atlantic coast, on the Peruvian coast, is the
39:49
high humidity of the Atlantic coast. So, I think I personally have this
39:52
hypothesis that, once ceramics are adopted, the population necessarily divinely grow significantly.
40:01
I was already growing with the food cooking ovens that we have also found in
40:07
San Jacinto, because one thing we have not mentioned is that ceramics in San
40:12
Jacinto are given at the same time that there is a biological techno innovation,
40:15
which are ovens to cook food. Those are food coduction. It occurs in
40:21
all those places that before the invention of ceramics in all parts of the world
40:24
and I also in Japan, occur in Asia. And there is a time
40:29
when people discover that these underground ovens are really good for cooking, like in
40:35
tamales. Make certain meat and also processed plants wrapped in these underground ovens count,
40:45
and that kills with the humidity that generates high temperature in the ecusion oven,
40:52
kills all bacteria that contain these foods. So, always, that technology
40:59
is given before apparently a population growth. In other words, when people discover
41:05
this technique, it allows longer periods of life. Let' s say,
41:10
life expectancy is long during that process. Now that the furnaces mention it,
41:15
which are the evidence and some beautiful pictures of those furnaces, you don'
41:19
t think those ovens where this little dig was made in the clay, were
41:27
cooked there and hardened the walls. It wouldn' t be an indication to
41:34
these people here that we burn this clay and something happens or it wouldn'
41:40
t necessarily be antecedent. So let' s say what happens, what happens
41:45
to explanations that are based on analogy or similarity, which are simple. True,
41:51
many of the inventions of technology have always predominated, but let' s
41:57
really say observing walls that burn, whether by fire, where it is built
42:02
with clay or any of these aspects never and I think that in every part
42:08
of the world it generated in invention of something It' s not how ah
42:14
look this hardened. I can turn it into a pot automatically just doesn'
42:20
t work. So because to make a ceramic you have to discover a formula
42:28
and, for more, that you observe every day an event that burns on
42:31
the walls, for example, where you cook something not usually will not give
42:36
you the formula in the head of how I will manufacture a pot. And
42:42
it' s a formula because you have to understand, in chemical terms,
42:46
more or less certain of pure observation and, in physical terms, how you
42:53
' re going to combine that, that you' re going to add,
42:57
that it' s going to inhabit, that the clay with the heat breaks,
43:01
and that' s how those materials are going to behave with the temperatures
43:06
coming to the point of observation. Test and error, Test and error,
43:07
Get better. Let' s say one of the variables and it' s
43:14
the composition of clay. What is the best composition to achieve an empty one.
43:16
Another variable can be perfectly the amount. How much are you going to
43:22
kick him out or how much are you not going to kick him out?
43:23
How much will you dry? Clay or not you' re going to dry
43:28
it so many variables. What makes it impossible to think? It makes it
43:32
impossible to think that it' s just one thing so it' s just
43:37
an observation and I' m already making up ceramics or beginnings. And more
43:40
so, in the case of the Atlantic slope. What is observed with this
43:44
individuality is that it arises as a kind of game, in my view,
43:49
where people realize that with their hands they can manipulate these clays and give them
43:53
shapes and that if it heats them gloomy so they become solid and they all
44:01
start to compete to see who does it better than the other. Then one
44:07
observes through these materials, thousands of years, two thousand years of experimentation,
44:10
one can practically observe it is as if it were a game of competition,
44:16
of who achieves it the best recipe and once it achieves it, everyone says
44:22
yes, that is the best recipe. Let' s do the ceramics here
44:27
at the Alto using that formula. So let' s say the explanations that
44:31
have been given by similarity does not work the same with metallurgy, because they
44:37
observed volcanoes and rocks are similar and melt metal irons and all this. So
44:43
let' s invent metallogia and say cooking food and watch the hard walls hard
44:50
two million and a peak of years before they were made. Then the question
44:53
to Gennell why it wasn' t made a million years ago, why we
44:57
took so long to come to do it in or our history of evolution.
45:00
That' s only a thousand years. Imagine that a technology is like chulense.
45:07
Those axes would last two million years when people made them using the same
45:12
formula to make an axe, that is, following the same technical procedure as
45:16
how the laskas were removed. True, to achieve an identical form. And
45:22
that identical form is the same one found in Ethiopia or Europe, in Spain,
45:27
where those axes made nine hundred thousand years ago were found. So imagine
45:32
it is a technology that, once the human being manages to move his hands
45:37
and manages to recognize the technique, is followed by the sequence of the production
45:43
of an equal artifact. Here' s a certain sequence, a string that
45:50
they call heologues, operating chain. True, and it is not only the
45:53
operational chain, because the operational chain already comes in how all those elements are
46:00
integrated to give the final form to the pot. But what is not falling
46:02
operational is the part of the physical mixture of elements, water, clay,
46:07
how much, density, drying time, certain maturity also of clay, because
46:14
the chair is also managed to mature to achieve a point. And also the
46:20
other part of physics, the mixes, the proportions, the shapes of that
46:23
fiber, the amount of fibers to be thrown out. That' s all
46:28
a clear formula. No, there' s no le. That' s
46:30
an invention. It' s very sophisticated. It' s not something I
46:36
notice one and everyone doesn' t agree. All right, it involves kneading,
46:40
taking out the air so it doesn' t burst, putting it to
46:45
dry, but surely it will not tear me away to ensure control of a
46:49
temperature. And for that surely there is one wood that works better for me
46:52
than another. The cooking time, that is, the invention is well complex,
46:58
well complete, complex, It is very complex. That' s why
47:00
it took so long to develop, even though the human being existed for a
47:05
long time, but our brain, let' s say, has been evolving
47:13
slowly and still today, let' s say, our brain has the problem
47:16
that today technology is moving for some faster than the neurological capacity we have.
47:23
We already have a different problem, and it' s just that we'
47:29
re falling behind on the level of how our brain works. The majority of
47:30
the population with respect to technological knowledge and end up with a few people who
47:37
really know how it is done and what the formula or equation or scientific subject
47:42
is. Let' s say we have to dominate. I require such a
47:47
deep knowledge that only a few people in the paneta have it. They'
47:52
re not as many as people think, but we dense all these technologies as
47:55
a cell phone, as if I or you could do it, but none
48:00
of us can do it. Able to make them where the factory is now.
48:04
Let' s say who invented the cell phone here. Right, the
48:07
technique is there, but it' s something we' re still having a
48:14
hard time with. Then there' s a problem. Let' s say
48:17
develop at the brain level and come to adopt these knowledge strategies to be able
48:23
to invent. I mean, but yes, it' s very curious.
48:28
It seems to me that and surprising that it is the Atlantic coast, to
48:31
a certain extent, that was the place where we say that invention occurred and,
48:37
in my suspicion, true not only of the invention of ceramics, that
48:40
is in Colombia, also of metallurgy. It wouldn' t be surprising what
48:45
happened here, and that' s where the problem comes from. Why would
48:47
Colombia be the area of what Colombian territory is today, because Colombia really is
48:52
a new invention. I' m done for a hundred. Yes, yes,
48:55
yes, that is, as a republic. How it is possible that
49:00
these technologies happened here so early, but there is also one thing about this
49:07
country that is very strange and is that perhaps of the countries that I know,
49:10
right, I have visited very much the whole continent and all these different
49:15
parts of the world, but here, in Colombia, let' s say
49:19
people are very open to technologies. It' s something that' s always
49:22
surprised me. It is that any invention appears in the world and we adopt
49:28
it quickly. We do not have a sense of a certain mental barrier against
49:35
new technologies. And that makes this country really in a very special way that
49:40
if you go to Peru, other Latin American countries, you find many institutional
49:46
barriers and let' s say also of my social people with respect to new
49:52
technologies and are afraid of new technologies. Colombia turns out not. It is
49:57
not a country that is afraid of innovation, of technologies. I don'
50:01
t think it' s something that' s holding us back, like it
50:07
' s on other sides. I' ve got two questions. One is
50:17
possible that the invention of pottery is older, even than the current dates we
50:24
have of San Jacinto Bolívar, and the other question is that other things we
50:30
can study about the invention of pottery that are pending from archaeology. The two
50:40
questions are very relevant. I' d say yes. It is possible to
50:46
find older arrows of the invention of ceramics in San Jacinto, because let'
50:52
s say, one of the problems of the Atlantic coast is that our knowledge
50:57
of what was before the stage let' s say of the first inhabitants of
51:04
the Atlantic Coast until when San Jacinto appears is practically unknown and what scares me
51:12
more is that these days I read to my surprise and had not realized that
51:17
really on the Glantic Coast we do not have dates for beyond that of San
51:25
Jacinto, that is the date, which surprises me because I is Cabez San
51:29
Jacinto of nineteen ninety- two with the Community of San Jacintos. It'
51:32
s a very special job and there' s the San Jacinto Museum. True,
51:36
people can understand the process and it turns out that since then there have
51:40
been no older dates for the Atlantic coast. Those are the oldest, most
51:45
archaeological dates. What' s up. Nowhere has been dug from a period
51:50
of collectory hunters we know existed, we know politicians, but we don'
51:54
t know that sequence. So what I want to say is that we don
51:59
' t know when the first progralators arrived on the Atlantic coast and we don
52:05
' t know when either. Let' s say when that ceramic really starts,
52:09
because we don' t have that edge, let' s say chronological,
52:16
then suddenly it goes a thousand years further. It' s possible to
52:19
go five hundred years further. We don' t know. That' s
52:22
on the one hand. The other problem, what happens to inventions of technology,
52:28
is that ceramic inventions are very likely to exist elsewhere in the world.
52:35
Let' s say from the Americas, of course, in others in the
52:37
world, but let' s say in the Americas that they didn' t
52:44
come up, that is, they developed without sale and technology never took off,
52:47
consolidated, didn' t consolidate. So very likely, understanding how they
52:51
work in inventions of technologies, that those processes also occur in, that even
52:55
more efficient technologies are achieved, but they do not have social transmission and then
53:05
fail. Then it is quite possible that there were archaeological areas or very early
53:13
ceramics where people succeeded in some way. They painted, they also did everything,
53:17
they found their experimental formula and began to change the values, let'
53:22
s say from the variables of that ceramic formula and they suddenly managed to have
53:29
a good product, but at the end of the day, they failed to
53:30
transmit it. Technological transmission is very important, but it is not successful in
53:37
a society or towards the future in societies and after that transmission it was not
53:42
continued and disappeared. Then it is feasible that when we advance further with archaeology
53:49
in the Americas, we will find evidence of such processes, of dead processes
53:54
of invention. Let' s say they had a success and in the end
54:00
it wasn' t adapted. Yeah. Yeah, yeah? Yeah, yeah,
54:04
go on, no, nothing. It' s really nice to meet
54:07
you. Thank you so much for your time, for your generosity. It
54:12
is always a pleasure to talk with you and learn new things about archaeology and,
54:16
above all, invention, pottery, and we will continue to produce scientific
54:21
content in this podcast. The future was yesterday. Thank you very much.
54:24
Thank you very much, for this invitation and for being able to tell a
54:28
little bit about what is being done and how it is we have made progress
54:30
on this problem.