Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KOHBERGER "GETS AWAY WITH MURDER?" 2 MYSTERY MEN'S BLOOD-DNA AT MURDER SCENE

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KOHBERGER "GETS AWAY WITH MURDER?" 2 MYSTERY MEN'S BLOOD-DNA AT MURDER SCENE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger to get away with murder this after two
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Speaker 2: mystery men's blood DNA found at the murder scene. I mean'sye, Greece,
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Speaker 2: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
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Speaker 2: at this hour. The defense attorney a fleet of lawyers
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Speaker 2: as a matter of fact, representing Brian Coberger, charged in
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Speaker 2: the quadruple slave of four Beautiful University Idaho students. The
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Speaker 2: defense team arguing two mystery men's DNA found at the scene,
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Speaker 2: and therefore they argue nothing at the scene incriminates their client,
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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger.
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Speaker 1: Whoa wait a minute, what about.
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Speaker 2: Coburger's DNA on the knife sheath the murder weapon, the
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Speaker 2: sheath of the murder weapon under one of the victim's
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Speaker 2: dead bodies.
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Speaker 1: Rut Row that said, listen to this.
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Speaker 3: Bryan Coberger's attorney say, blood from an unknown man was
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Speaker 3: found on a handrail in the victim's home and another's
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Speaker 3: DNA was found on a glove outside, and Taylor says
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Speaker 3: this can mean Coburger is not related to the crime
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Speaker 3: at all. In Coburger's last hearing, Taylor criticized authorities, saying
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Speaker 3: police did not disclose the unidentified blood when obtaining a
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Speaker 3: search warrant for Coburger's arrest. Taylor argues, this should disqualify
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Speaker 3: some evidence collected in that search, as it was not
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Speaker 3: properly authorized.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let's just kick it off. That's a lie number one.
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Speaker 2: That DNA was disclosed over a year ago and the
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Speaker 2: state's filings, and Taylor, all you have to do is
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Speaker 2: read the filings like we did. That's right, over a
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Speaker 2: year ago. The unknown DNA samples were disclosed. But still
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Speaker 2: Coburger's DNA is on the murder weapon sheath under a
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Speaker 2: dead body.
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Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to get away with that.
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Speaker 2: You know what, maybe Ann Taylor got a minor degree
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Speaker 2: in magic so she can make the jury do this.
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Speaker 2: Look here not there? Isn't that right, Philip Dubay. Isn't
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Speaker 2: that what you do in court? You try to get
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Speaker 2: the jury to look somewhere else other than at the
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Speaker 2: damning DNA evidence on the sheath of the murder weapon
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Speaker 2: under the victim's dead body.
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Speaker 4: False.
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Speaker 5: I try to get the jury to look at evidence
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Speaker 5: of real guilt and not some spitball. If you will,
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Speaker 5: of guilt, you have proved that two other people's blood
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Speaker 5: was at the scene. Is a stark difference between blood
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Speaker 5: being present and mere presence, And all that sheath might
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Speaker 5: prove at most is that key or somebody in possession
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Speaker 5: of that sheath was there. It does not prove the
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Speaker 5: commission of a quadruple homicide.
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Speaker 2: Joining me right now to help me come back, Philip
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Speaker 2: Dubay with The Truth investigative reporter Sydney Summer, Sidney explained
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Speaker 2: to me this one question. There's a lot of explaining
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Speaker 2: to do, but let's start with a very narrow question.
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Speaker 2: Where is the mystery DNA located at the crime saying,
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Speaker 2: for instance, was it under one of the victim's dead bodies?
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Speaker 1: Sidney lutely not, Nancy.
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Speaker 6: One DNA sample was taken from a handrail on the
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Speaker 6: stairs in the home, and another was found on a
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Speaker 6: random glove outside. Investigators already been sure the glove was
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Speaker 6: ever in the house, so or worn by someone who
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Speaker 6: was ever in the house.
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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment.
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Speaker 2: We've seen the interiors of the home through windows. All
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Speaker 2: the crime scene photos have not been disseminated yet, but
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Speaker 2: we know the victims, the ones that were murdered. There
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Speaker 2: were two girls living downstairs that were untouched were up
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Speaker 2: the stairs.
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Speaker 1: Let's see a shot of the home. Please.
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Speaker 2: There are multiple stories to the home, and when you
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Speaker 2: look at it from the backside you can see it
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Speaker 2: even better. There was a handrail going up the stairs.
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Speaker 2: There you go going up the stairs.
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Speaker 1: Those are the top two floors.
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Speaker 2: Is another floor going up the stairs from the basement
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Speaker 2: or ground floor to the second story where you see
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Speaker 2: those sliding glass doors, to the third story where you
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Speaker 2: see the sliding glass doors with the balcony. The mystery
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Speaker 2: blood DNA on the handrail could, as far as I know,
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Speaker 2: been all the way down in the basement, nowhere near
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Speaker 2: the dead bodies of these four students murdered in their
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Speaker 2: beds now.
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Speaker 1: Isn't it true?
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Speaker 2: To Chris mcdonnet joining me, Founder director of the Cold
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Speaker 2: Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred homicide
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Speaker 2: investigations under his belt, star of the Interview Room on YouTube,
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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnet, isn't it true that when we were out
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Speaker 2: at the scene, when you were there on your own,
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Speaker 2: you observed a glove lying out in the parking lot.
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Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
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Speaker 4: It absolutely is.
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Speaker 7: Nancy and I was standing on the street near the
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Speaker 7: trash cans out front, and I looked behind that trash can,
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Speaker 7: just behind the yellow barrier tape, and there it was
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Speaker 7: sitting right there in the know. And I talked to
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Speaker 7: my shelf, Wow, that's out of place. So I called
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Speaker 7: one of the officers over, and you know, I pointed
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Speaker 7: it out to them and they collected it.
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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, we're showing a photo of
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Speaker 2: that glove right now.
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Speaker 1: Now.
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Speaker 2: This was after the scene had been processed to some degree.
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Speaker 2: This is after a law enforcement had already come there,
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Speaker 2: and there was a glove out in the parking lot. Okay,
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Speaker 2: that's one glove. And when I went to the scene
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Speaker 2: as well, Guess what I was wearing. I believe we
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Speaker 2: have a photo h that. Guess what I dropped in
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Speaker 2: the parking lot that day? This I still have it.
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Speaker 2: So let's talk about DNA inside a completely unrelated glove
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Speaker 2: found out in the parking lot Sidney summer. Yes, No,
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Speaker 2: wasn't the glove found in the parking lot of the home.
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Speaker 6: That's correct, Nancy, absolutely.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let's go straight back to Chris McDonough. Chris McDonough,
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Speaker 2: could you explain to me any if any significance of
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Speaker 2: a random glove in the parking lot, What, if anything,
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Speaker 2: could that mean. I'm sure the defense is having a
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Speaker 2: field day with it, but realistically speaking, it wasn't on
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Speaker 2: the sheath of the murder weapon under the victim's body.
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Speaker 2: It's out in the parking lot. It could have been
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Speaker 2: yours or mind for Pete's sake.
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Speaker 4: Absolutely.
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Speaker 7: In fact, Nancy could have also belonged to one of
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Speaker 7: the investigators processing the scene. You know, they could have
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Speaker 7: accidentally dropped it and nobody saw it. Although you know,
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Speaker 7: the defense would probably argue, hey, it's in the direction
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Speaker 7: of where the car allegedly would have been parked according
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Speaker 7: to the police, that you know, or excuse me, the
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Speaker 7: prosecution is going to say, you know, this came from
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Speaker 7: the suspect. My question is is the blood on the
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Speaker 7: inside or the outside of the glove, because that could
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Speaker 7: be significant.
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Speaker 2: Really good point, guys. Another theory has emerged, now wait
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Speaker 2: for it.
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Speaker 1: Listen to this.
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Speaker 3: When Ryan Coberger was arrested, his response to police, who
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Speaker 3: else did you arrest? There is much speculation over the comment,
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Speaker 3: especially now that his defense claims unidentified male blood was
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Speaker 3: found on a handrail at the King Road crime scene
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Speaker 3: and on a glove outside. They say this points to
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Speaker 3: potential other suspects or could be part of an elaborate
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Speaker 3: plant to stage the crime scene that.
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Speaker 1: Are in criminal profilo.
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Speaker 3: John Kelly tells news agencies that the remark could have
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Speaker 3: come from Coburger's expectation that other leads had been followed
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Speaker 3: by police.
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Speaker 2: Straight out to special guests joining us. And you know
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Speaker 2: him well. Howard Bloom is with us who has conducted extensive.
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Speaker 1: Research and investigation over.
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Speaker 2: Months, culminating in his new book, When the Night Comes Falling,
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Speaker 2: a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. And you can
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Speaker 2: find him at his website Howard Bloom spelled b l
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Speaker 2: um dot com. Howard, you have recently written an article
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Speaker 2: in which you stay there are stunning courtroom revelations, and
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Speaker 2: you know I can't deny this, even though I don't
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Speaker 2: think the state has arrested the wrong person. Mystery DNA
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Speaker 2: from two other males at the same blood.
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Speaker 1: DNA is going to be a hurdle for the state.
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Speaker 2: Now when it's explained slowly and carefully and calmly, I
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Speaker 2: think the jury will see through it.
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Speaker 1: But it's a bobshell.
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Speaker 2: What do you think about another other experts theory that
10:03
Speaker 2: Coburger may have even staged it.
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Speaker 8: Trials tell stories. I think that's what we have to remember.
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Speaker 8: The facts really don't matter that much. Here you have
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Speaker 8: the defense being able to ask the question, how did
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Speaker 8: that knife sheath get in that bedroom? Could someone have
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Speaker 8: planted it there other than Coburger? Because remember it's not
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Speaker 8: blood DNA from Coburger on the knife sheet, it's touched DNA.
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Speaker 8: They are going to argue that perhaps he touched the
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Speaker 8: knife sheath at some point and these other two unknown
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Speaker 8: males planted it there. They're going to try to convince
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Speaker 8: a jury of this.
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Speaker 1: Put him up.
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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm sorry, maybe my ife base not working
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Speaker 2: because I think what I just heard you say is
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Speaker 2: that someone got the knife sheath from Coburger after he
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Speaker 2: had touched it in the snap where you app to
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Speaker 2: take the knife out, got it from Coburger and planted
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Speaker 2: it under a dead body, and then conveniently left behind
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Speaker 2: their own blood DNA on the handrail and in a
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Speaker 2: random glove out in the parking lot.
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Speaker 1: Query were little green men from Mars?
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Speaker 8: Part of this, you can you can say it's facetiously
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Speaker 8: like that, but the evidence against Coburger. Besides, the DNA
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Speaker 8: really doesn't stand up. Everything is very weak. We can
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Speaker 8: go through it again. You know, there's no motive, there's
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Speaker 8: no picture of them in the life car.
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Speaker 1: Actually do let's go through it.
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Speaker 4: Hold on.
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Speaker 2: His phone pings at his apartment at two forty two
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Speaker 2: a m.
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Speaker 1: The night of the murders. Five minutes later, his phone
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Speaker 1: is turned off.
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Speaker 2: Three twenty nine, a m of wh Alantra mass matching
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Speaker 2: his sedan, passes the murder scene three times, at three
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Speaker 2: point thirty in the morning. Four it comes back and
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Speaker 2: stops in front of the house for twenty It leaves,
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Speaker 2: flying down that crookedly little road leading up to the
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Speaker 2: murder scene. Then four forty eight it pings south of Moscow,
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Speaker 2: plowing down State Highway ninety five in the dark. Okay,
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Speaker 2: let's see to Sydney Sumner joining me Crime online dot
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Speaker 2: Com investigative reporter Sydney His cell phone pings alone are damning.
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Speaker 2: His Elantra is spotted there at the scene. We see
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Speaker 2: him destroying evidence, cleaning out his car meticulously.
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Speaker 1: Blood places him at the scene.
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Speaker 2: Excuse me, DNA places him at the scene, and so
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Speaker 2: much more. Sidney Sumner what evidence is the state using
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Speaker 2: against Brian Toberger.
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Speaker 6: There is so much evidence that the state has to
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Speaker 6: use against Brian Coberger. A lot of this is circumstantial
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Speaker 6: at best, but that DNA evidence is absolutely damning. There's
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Speaker 6: just no explanation for why that knife sheep is in
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Speaker 6: that house if it isn't the murder weapon, and no
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Speaker 6: explanation for why coburger DNA would be on that knife
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Speaker 6: sheep if he was not the murderer.
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Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace straight out to special guests,
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Speaker 2: joining US doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation.
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Speaker 2: The idea that Bloom is advancing that somehow two other
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Speaker 2: males were part of a big murder scheme where not
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Speaker 2: only did they murder for innocent University Idaho students, but
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Speaker 2: it was all part of a plan to incriminate Brian
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Speaker 2: Coburger by somehow getting his DNA on the knife sheath
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Speaker 2: and planting it. I didn't even mention the searches, the
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Speaker 2: Amazon searches, which the defense is trying desperately to suppress
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Speaker 2: so the jury never hears about it. The Amazon searches
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Speaker 2: many many searches for the weapon, and he finally buys
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Speaker 2: the weapon with a sheath that exactly matches the one
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Speaker 2: found at the murder scene under a victim, but the
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Speaker 2: knife has gone missing, so he bought the knife on
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Speaker 2: Amazon like a big idiot. Now they're climbing Your Amazon
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Speaker 2: records are sacred and private and the state shouldn't be
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Speaker 2: able to access them. Really, But that said, what jury
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Speaker 2: would buy the argument that too unknown mystery man plan
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Speaker 2: this whole thing to frame Coburger.
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Speaker 9: I think that's a tough sell because the reality is
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Speaker 9: the simplest explanation is usually the one that's most correct.
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Speaker 9: This was a college house where the kids had parties.
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Speaker 9: When I was in college, cleaning up after.
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Speaker 10: A party wasn't one of my priorities, And so that blood.
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Speaker 11: Could have come from two different meal people who were
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Speaker 11: in the house. Maybe they were at a party and
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Speaker 11: cut themselves. You know, who knows how long that it
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Speaker 11: was there. I think there's a number of explanations, but
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Speaker 11: that's a really complicated.
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Speaker 10: Explanation to say that he was framed and that all
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Speaker 10: of these steps had to happen to do that.
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Speaker 12: I don't like you he did a white collar crime.
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Speaker 13: This isn't a white color crime.
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Speaker 12: This is This is people you work your whole life
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Speaker 12: to get them to go to college and then they
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Speaker 12: get killed while they're sleep that night.
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Speaker 1: When this guy like he just like.
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Speaker 7: Traded insider trading with his own company stocks, it's not
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Speaker 7: white collar.
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Speaker 2: With every twist and turn in this case, the victim's
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Speaker 2: family suffer more at this hour a bombshell the defense
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Speaker 2: claiming two mystery males DNA found at the murder, saying
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Speaker 2: or four Idaho University students slaughtered in their own beds.
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Speaker 1: You were just saying. The parents of Kelly GUNSLV is
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Speaker 1: speaking out.
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Speaker 2: Take a listen to what we are learning about the
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Speaker 2: defense argument.
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Speaker 3: Coburger's attorneys claimed d FBI illegally obtained Ryan Coberger's DNA,
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Speaker 3: breaking the Fourth Amendment on illegal search and seizure. They
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Speaker 3: say submitting Coburger's DNA to a public ancestry database was
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Speaker 3: out of bounds when law enforcement is not legally permitted
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Speaker 3: to use the site. The attorneys are also saying the
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Speaker 3: fact that police did not only not submit to other
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Speaker 3: blood samples from the scene to the FBI DNA database
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Speaker 3: due to not fitting eligibility requirements, agents did not tell
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Speaker 3: the magistrate judge about them. Taylor claims the omission should
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Speaker 3: disqualify some evidence obtained joining us.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Thomas Coyne, Chief Medical Examiner, District Tie Medical Examiner's
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Speaker 2: Office in Florida, pathologist, neuropathologist, toxicologist.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Coin, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: Much is being made about the mystery men's to DNA,
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Speaker 2: two of them unidentified males.
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Speaker 1: We understand they're.
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Speaker 2: Not the same two, they're not the same person. Donor
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Speaker 2: not just one mystery man, but two mystery men's blood
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Speaker 2: DNA found at the murder scene. One blood on a handrail.
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Speaker 2: I'm curious was it dried? Where in the home was it?
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Speaker 2: There are three stories. The other on a glove discarded
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Speaker 2: in the parking lot, Doctor Coin. There are many ways
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Speaker 2: to transfer blood, such as what well.
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Speaker 14: I mean, first of all, we're making the assumption of
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Speaker 14: this is blood, and I don't think that it may
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Speaker 14: very well not be blood. And the reason being is
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Speaker 14: that DNA obtained from a nucleated blood cell or a
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Speaker 14: nucleated cell from your mouth or from anywhere in your
18:55
Speaker 14: body is going to be the same. So the only
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Speaker 14: way that you're able to identify that this is blood
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Speaker 14: is either doing an mRNA profile, which they didn't do here,
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Speaker 14: or to apply another chemical reagent that will try to
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Speaker 14: identify this substance that's blood and that generally occurs by
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Speaker 14: reacting with iron that's president in the humid a little
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Speaker 14: bit of blood, and you make the assumption, yes, this
19:16
Speaker 14: is blood, but iron is present in a lot of things. Copper,
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Speaker 14: iron are all transition medicals excuse me, chemicals that or
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Speaker 14: metals excuse me, that can make this reaction look positive.
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Speaker 14: So you're making the assumption that you're applying a reagent
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Speaker 14: to an area in the house, you're getting a positive hit,
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Speaker 14: you're swabbing it, you're getting a positive DNA hit, and
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Speaker 14: now you're saying, yes, this is blood DNA, but there's
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Speaker 14: DNA all over that house. We shed DNA everywhere constantly,
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Speaker 14: especially a home that you have tenants that are all
19:46
Speaker 14: in college. I guarantee you there are multiple male and
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Speaker 14: females coming in and out of that house on a
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Speaker 14: regular basis, shedding their DNA everywhere.
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Speaker 2: To Justine Scott Morgan, joining US Professor Forensics Say Jacksonville
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Speaker 2: State University, author of Blood My Feet on Amazon and
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Speaker 2: star of Body Bags, Joe Scott, you have investigated over
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Speaker 2: one thousand, one thousand death scenes. You have collected blooded scenes,
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Speaker 2: you have the observed transfer spatter, pulling droplets.
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Speaker 1: You name it.
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Speaker 2: You have found the tiniest, tiniest amount of DNA at
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Speaker 2: scenes and collected it.
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Speaker 1: Now the defense is stating.
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Speaker 2: That this is male DNA, at least one of them
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Speaker 2: being blood. I'm curious, Joe Scott Morgan, how is it
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Speaker 2: that they know it's male DNA.
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Speaker 4: Well, it's because of the markers that are contained within
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Speaker 4: our DNA molecule, the differentiate between male and female. So
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Speaker 4: that's relatively easily narrowed down, and they still have it.
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Speaker 4: Is this something they can go back and do for
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Speaker 4: the test now?
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Mactor Howard Bloom joining us, author of When the Night
21:18
Speaker 2: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho student murderers. You
21:22
Speaker 2: stay in your recent article that you fear that Brian
21:27
Speaker 2: Coberger has, let me quote, committed the nearly perfect crime.
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Speaker 1: Why do you say that.
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Speaker 8: Because the evidence against him is largely circumstantial except for
21:40
Speaker 8: the DNA. The only really condemning evidence against him is
21:45
Speaker 8: after he's arrested, they do a cheek swab the DNA
21:49
Speaker 8: from that cheek swap matches, the DNA on the knife sheath,
21:55
Speaker 8: that's it. Everything else the car they never have him
21:57
Speaker 8: behind the wheel, they never get the life of the car.
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Speaker 8: The cell phone triangulation, well that's just ten miles the
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Speaker 8: eyewitness allegedly for Dylan Mortenson. That's been impugned. So on
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Speaker 8: and on and on, And if the defense can create
22:13
Speaker 8: a story now with this new blood evidence in telling
22:18
Speaker 8: another scenario, another possibility to the jury, it could be effective.
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Speaker 8: In fact, in court it was Judge Hippler himself who said,
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Speaker 8: after hearing the defense make the statement about the DNA,
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Speaker 8: are you saying that Coberger had people helping him, that
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Speaker 8: he had accomplices? He raised this issue and if he
22:37
Speaker 8: is able to articulate it, it will I think land
22:41
Speaker 8: very spare in the minds of the jurors.
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Speaker 2: Boom, Wait a minute. He only said that, obviously because
22:51
Speaker 2: and Taylor's argument isn't making any sense. She is saying,
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Speaker 2: I guess jumping on your train, that too unknown mystery
23:01
Speaker 2: men either helped or framed Brian Coburger. He's saying it
23:07
Speaker 2: just like I said. Is that what you're saying? Just
23:10
Speaker 2: like when I said, what's next little green men from
23:13
Speaker 2: Mars beamed down and helped out. He is trying to
23:17
Speaker 2: get his mind around the defense claim. Are you saying
23:22
Speaker 2: that two men helped Coburger, that this is a big
23:27
Speaker 2: murder conspiracy, either helped him commit the murder or tried
23:30
Speaker 2: to frame him. He's saying it just like I'm saying
23:33
Speaker 2: it right now. Is that really what you're saying. I
23:37
Speaker 2: don't read anything into that incredulity.
23:41
Speaker 8: Because he also raised the question of a Frank's hearing.
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Speaker 8: He did not rule it out. He had to give
23:46
Speaker 8: it more thoughts. And I think I'm not saying it's
23:50
Speaker 8: what happened. I'm saying this is an effective story, and
23:53
Speaker 8: Taylor is a story held one story.
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Speaker 1: You know what a Frank's hearing is, right? Do you
24:00
Speaker 1: think Frank's hearing is.
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Speaker 8: Is to impugne the evidence of the police gathered to
24:04
Speaker 8: get a search warrant for a probable cause?
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Speaker 1: Okay?
24:09
Speaker 2: And he responded with incredulity at that very claim that
24:17
Speaker 2: the search warrant and the arrest warrant were not supported
24:20
Speaker 2: by constitutional PC probable cause.
24:23
Speaker 3: Listen to what Hipler says. Judge Steve Hippler and a
24:26
Speaker 3: Coborger's league. Defense attorney An Taylor seemed to be at
24:29
Speaker 3: odds over DNA found at the crime scene. The defense
24:33
Speaker 3: wants investigative genetic genealogy evidence used to identify her client suppressed,
24:38
Speaker 3: the question being is there an expectation of privacy for
24:42
Speaker 3: DNA left at a crime scene? Judge Stephen Hipler says
24:46
Speaker 3: he struggles with the idea that there's any expectation of privacy.
24:50
Speaker 3: Hipler added that the DNA found on the knife sheath,
24:53
Speaker 3: there's probable calls every day and twice on Sunday, and
24:57
Speaker 3: Taylor disagreed.
24:58
Speaker 1: There you have it.
24:59
Speaker 2: I mean, bloom, you can sit back and your easy
25:03
Speaker 2: chair and write books and articles as interesting and as
25:07
Speaker 2: informative as they are, and try to interpret what the
25:12
Speaker 2: judge is saying.
25:13
Speaker 1: But his words are, DNA.
25:16
Speaker 2: On that knife sheath is probable cause every day and
25:21
Speaker 2: twice on Sunday, babe.
25:24
Speaker 4: And what did he say after that?
25:26
Speaker 8: He said, hold, your calendar is free because we might
25:29
Speaker 8: want to have a Frank's hearing. So he hadn't resolved
25:32
Speaker 8: it as clearly as he would.
25:34
Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, hold on, Philip Doby, can you
25:39
Speaker 2: just debate? Can you just take off your defense hat
25:44
Speaker 2: really quickly, okay, and just tell me the truth if this.
25:48
Speaker 1: If the defense wants.
25:49
Speaker 2: A Frank's hearing before the judge, they're gonna get a
25:53
Speaker 2: Frank's hearing. Why this is a death penalty case, and
25:58
Speaker 2: if they want the judge to hear the argument and
26:01
Speaker 2: then rule of course, hipler's going to do it.
26:04
Speaker 1: A judge, especially in a.
26:05
Speaker 2: Death penalty case, is not going to say I don't
26:07
Speaker 2: even want to hear what you've got to say a jailer,
26:10
Speaker 2: Uh huh, that right, there could be reversible error, So
26:14
Speaker 2: of course he's going to have a Frank's hearing. A
26:17
Speaker 2: Frank's hearing is when the judge looks at the probable
26:21
Speaker 2: cause that supported a search or an arrest warrant and
26:26
Speaker 2: determines really was there enough PC. PC can be based
26:31
Speaker 2: on hearsay, it can be based on third party information,
26:35
Speaker 2: but it has to be enough to support.
26:37
Speaker 1: A search or an arrest.
26:39
Speaker 2: Do you really think, in any way in any world debate,
26:46
Speaker 2: that Hippler is not going to allow a Frank's hearing.
26:50
Speaker 2: For him to say, yes, you can have a Frank's hearing,
26:52
Speaker 2: that means nothing.
26:53
Speaker 5: Of course he's going to allow it, and you should,
26:55
Speaker 5: because remember, the test is whether or not the affidem
26:59
Speaker 5: it or probable cause is supported by truthful, accurate facts
27:04
Speaker 5: that were relayed in the affidavit or probable cause under oath.
27:08
Speaker 5: If for whatever reason there were factual omissions, misstatements, and
27:13
Speaker 5: frankly lies, that is grounds to traverse the warrant and
27:17
Speaker 5: suppress everything recovered as a result of it. Or alternatively,
27:21
Speaker 5: the court confined that despite the inaccuracies and the omissions,
27:26
Speaker 5: even if you sever that, there's still ample probable cause
27:30
Speaker 5: to allow warrant to survive.
27:32
Speaker 13: Yeah, I understand your position, which frankly is not well
27:36
Speaker 13: supported in the law.
27:37
Speaker 11: That.
27:38
Speaker 13: If hypothetically, here he went to this crime scene, committed
27:44
Speaker 13: these murders, and left DNA on a piece of evidence
27:47
Speaker 13: that he now has the ability to object to that
27:52
Speaker 13: evidence being searched for identification purposes. There's no case that
27:56
Speaker 13: suggests that that concludes that, and it seems to me
28:01
Speaker 13: to be an extreme position to.
28:02
Speaker 1: Take in light of the case.
28:03
Speaker 13: Lawn, I'm trying to understand how you get.
28:05
Speaker 2: There, Okate, my notes when the judge was saying that,
28:08
Speaker 2: when Hippler was saying that is Hippler knows defendant's attorney
28:13
Speaker 2: is crazy.
28:15
Speaker 1: Okay, now what does that mean?
28:17
Speaker 2: The defense in this case is arguing that once the
28:21
Speaker 2: DNA was found on the knife sheath, that the state
28:25
Speaker 2: illegally had.
28:26
Speaker 1: It tested at the crime lab.
28:29
Speaker 2: Okay, that's like you find a bullet at the scene
28:32
Speaker 2: and you send it to the crime lab for ballistics tests.
28:36
Speaker 1: That's the equivalent.
28:37
Speaker 2: They're actually claiming that that was unconstitutional. And the judge
28:42
Speaker 2: is saying, like, let me understand again what you're saying here,
28:46
Speaker 2: and he comes out and says, there's no case to
28:49
Speaker 2: suggest or support what you're saying.
28:52
Speaker 1: You understand that right.
28:53
Speaker 2: Anyway, There is another issue sell phone data listen.
28:59
Speaker 15: Gooberg defense team has hired cell phone expert Sire to
29:03
Speaker 15: testify and support of Coberger's alibi. The former police officer
29:06
Speaker 15: and founder of z X bases his analysis on the
29:09
Speaker 15: pings that a cell phone sends to a nearby tower
29:12
Speaker 15: using the software tracks, but many have questioned the reliability
29:16
Speaker 15: of raised data. Many other experts say Trax's methodology is
29:19
Speaker 15: not based in science, and a Colorado judge has even
29:22
Speaker 15: banned prosecutors from using the software in their cases.
29:25
Speaker 2: What cell phone data number one? We know where his
29:29
Speaker 2: phone ping. Let's see that graphic one more time, and
29:31
Speaker 2: we know that at the time of the murders, he
29:34
Speaker 2: conveniently turned his cell phone off and then.
29:37
Speaker 1: Turn it on again when he was fleeing the scene.
29:39
Speaker 2: According to the State, Scott Eiker is joining a founding
29:43
Speaker 2: member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team.
29:47
Speaker 1: Let that just sink in.
29:49
Speaker 2: Founding member of the FBI sell Analysis Team.
29:56
Speaker 1: That says it all.
29:57
Speaker 2: You can find him now at PCAs Experts dot com
30:01
Speaker 2: Precision Cellular Analysis.
30:04
Speaker 1: This is what he does all day, every day.
30:08
Speaker 2: And as Hipler said twice on Sundays, Scott Iiker, thank
30:11
Speaker 2: you for being with us. What are they talking about?
30:14
Speaker 2: They have a cell phone expert that's gonna say.
30:17
Speaker 4: What I can tell you, Nancy.
30:18
Speaker 12: I've dealt with this cell phone expert, mister siree, and
30:23
Speaker 12: we have for years and years dealt with him and
30:26
Speaker 12: how he brings stuff into court. The best way to
30:30
Speaker 12: exam explain it is that judge in Colorado who basically
30:35
Speaker 12: said that his software is based on a sea of unreliability.
30:41
Speaker 12: He found that mister Ray was not credible, claiming that
30:46
Speaker 12: he was boasting his credentials. Actor claiming he was an engineer,
30:51
Speaker 12: and they basically said you can't use his stuff or
30:55
Speaker 12: use him as an expert in Colorado here because it's
30:59
Speaker 12: baseless and the reason they're doing that, And you know,
31:03
Speaker 12: I don't know mister Ray personally, but you know we've
31:07
Speaker 12: dealt with his estimates and misleading information in what he
31:13
Speaker 12: says about self on stuff numerous times, and it's very
31:17
Speaker 12: important to make sure you're accurate because it can be
31:20
Speaker 12: very problematic and misleading. If you don't just state the facts,
31:25
Speaker 12: you can't expound on those.
31:26
Speaker 2: And Guests, Scott Iiker, I want to tell you a
31:30
Speaker 2: very quick story. I had a medical examiner, and no
31:34
Speaker 2: offense to you, doctor Coin or to you Joe Scott Morgan,
31:38
Speaker 2: but this medical examiner I had seen transcripts or he
31:42
Speaker 2: was totally discredited under oath, and I waited for him
31:46
Speaker 2: to take the stand for the defense, and then I
31:49
Speaker 2: remember the look on his face when I started pulling
31:51
Speaker 2: out all those depositions. At least here the defense is
31:55
Speaker 2: getting an idea ahead of time that their expert.
31:58
Speaker 1: May have a credibility problem.
31:59
Speaker 2: Are you are you telling me he claiming to be
32:01
Speaker 2: an engineer and he's not an engineer that is correct.
32:03
Speaker 12: He is not an engineer. He was actually a police
32:05
Speaker 12: officer or sheriff in I think it was in Texas
32:10
Speaker 12: or Arizona, and he started working cases around cell phone stuff.
32:15
Speaker 12: And he has basic knowledge. He's never had any training
32:19
Speaker 12: from engineers like I have what we did in the FBI.
32:23
Speaker 12: So he doesn't have the knowledge or the expertise. And
32:26
Speaker 12: then he's taking the leaps where there's really no facts
32:30
Speaker 12: to support what he's saying.
32:33
Speaker 2: Sometimes, Philip du Bay, that is a major misstep to
32:38
Speaker 2: put up an expert that's going to be destroyed on
32:41
Speaker 2: cross examination on credibility alone if that happens in this case.
32:46
Speaker 5: Yes, of course, But remember he's putting on an alibi defense.
32:49
Speaker 5: He is saying that he was stargazing and chanting at Ashram,
32:52
Speaker 5: sitting in a lotus position with the phone off, and
32:55
Speaker 5: if he's at one with.
32:56
Speaker 1: The universe, praying and saying Noma.
32:59
Speaker 5: State, that's defense. Now, will it fly remains to be seen.
33:03
Speaker 16: Finally, there was a trash pool in Pennsylvania, and there
33:07
Speaker 16: was no warrant for that trash pool either your honor.
33:11
Speaker 16: For the purposes of the Fourth Amendment protections and Article
33:15
Speaker 16: one Section seventeen of the Idaho Constitution. We are looking
33:19
Speaker 16: to see if somebody has a privacy interest that society
33:23
Speaker 16: is ready to support. In this case, if society is
33:29
Speaker 16: not ready to support suppression of every bit of our
33:34
Speaker 16: DNA when the government does not have a warrant and
33:38
Speaker 16: searches it, there is no privacy right left.
33:41
Speaker 2: Okay, to really focus on what Anne Taylor is saying
33:46
Speaker 2: to Defense arning Field de Bay.
33:48
Speaker 1: She is arguing that when the.
33:51
Speaker 2: Trash was taken from Coburger's parents' home in the Poconos
33:55
Speaker 2: and they got the dad's DNA matched it back to
33:57
Speaker 2: the knife sheep trash was taken, that was illegal. I
34:03
Speaker 2: guess she never heard about the abandonment theory. If I
34:06
Speaker 2: throw out the trash or I throw out gum on
34:08
Speaker 2: the street, which I would never do, and the cop
34:10
Speaker 2: comes along gets my DNA off of it, that's abandonment.
34:13
Speaker 2: Anybody can have it because I threw it away, I
34:15
Speaker 2: don't need a warrant. She's claiming that the trash pool
34:18
Speaker 2: was wrong, and she's arguing that Coburger's great great great
34:23
Speaker 2: grandma has a privacy interest. When they put Coburger's DNA
34:28
Speaker 2: from the knife sheath into the genetic genealogy. Whose rights
34:32
Speaker 2: are they violating? Great great granny What.
34:35
Speaker 1: That's what she's arguing. You know, that's BS disagree.
34:39
Speaker 5: Come on, listen. They just took the DNA profile his
34:43
Speaker 5: genetic components, put it into a database where they had
34:47
Speaker 5: no actual or apparent consent to look at it. And
34:51
Speaker 5: the real test is does he have a subjective and
34:55
Speaker 5: objective expectation of privacy in his own genetic material as
34:59
Speaker 5: a opposed to just taking the genetic material of material
35:03
Speaker 5: and putting it in a government database where you have
35:06
Speaker 5: a bunch of arrestees and suspects already on file without
35:10
Speaker 5: actual or apparent consent. It violates sup Forth Amendment and
35:14
Speaker 5: the remedies you throw out.
35:17
Speaker 1: Evidence consent from who.
35:20
Speaker 2: None of those people have standing to complain to argue
35:24
Speaker 2: in court. This is about the defendant's right to privacy
35:28
Speaker 2: and taking the DNA off that knife sheath and putting
35:31
Speaker 2: it into genetic genealogy does not violate his rights.
35:36
Speaker 1: And as far as the trash pull, the father Coburger's father.
35:41
Speaker 2: Throughout trash, it was abandoned under the law according to
35:45
Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court. Unless you're climbing, they're wrong that
35:48
Speaker 2: property was abandoned and the police have full access to that.
35:54
Speaker 2: But hold on, I'm just being joined by a very
35:57
Speaker 2: special guest joining us regarding the Idaho death penalty and
36:03
Speaker 2: execution methods, doctor James Williams, leading courtroom expert on firing squads.
36:10
Speaker 1: Doctor Williams, thank you for being with us.
36:13
Speaker 4: The happy to be here.
36:16
Speaker 1: Thank you.
36:16
Speaker 2: The Idaho Assembly has now determined that the firing squad, again,
36:23
Speaker 2: of course this has already occurred in Idaho, will be
36:26
Speaker 2: allowed as the number one choice for execution. How is
36:31
Speaker 2: that affected? Many people wonder is it automated or are
36:36
Speaker 2: there actual people firing the gun? How does the firing
36:43
Speaker 2: squad work in Idaho.
36:45
Speaker 4: Well, that's a good question, Nancy. Nobody really knows at
36:47
Speaker 4: this point. The state has stated that they're still working
36:50
Speaker 4: on their procedures and protocols, but we do know from
36:54
Speaker 4: background information that they have drawn heavily on the experience
36:58
Speaker 4: of the state of Utah, which of course have been
37:00
Speaker 4: using firing squad as a method of execution since the
37:03
Speaker 4: middle of the nineteenth century. But there has been speculations
37:06
Speaker 4: they may use some form of automated system. Automated would
37:11
Speaker 4: be I think stretching it, but having rifles mounted in
37:14
Speaker 4: fixtures that would be aimed presumably by human beings prior
37:21
Speaker 4: to the actual execution, and then they would be fired
37:24
Speaker 4: by some remote mechanism electronically, well, not really a robot.
37:31
Speaker 4: It would really it would actually be as I understand, well,
37:34
Speaker 4: it could be actually just back off on that. Sure,
37:36
Speaker 4: if they've got a robot that's sophisticated, they may well
37:39
Speaker 4: use it. But I don't know of anything like that
37:41
Speaker 4: in existence technologically.
37:43
Speaker 2: Okay, let me just try to drink and ingest what
37:48
Speaker 2: you just said.
37:50
Speaker 1: Guys.
37:51
Speaker 2: Doctor James Williams is a leading expert on the firing squad.
38:00
Speaker 2: So you're saying that it's actually being advocated that a
38:06
Speaker 2: robotic system or digital system be set up to take
38:10
Speaker 2: perfect aim at Coburger and shoot him dead, as opposed
38:15
Speaker 2: to five people standing there, one of them has a
38:19
Speaker 2: blank and they all fire and they can all go
38:22
Speaker 2: home thinking, oh, I was the one with the blank.
38:24
Speaker 1: Why.
38:25
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what the reason behind it is. I
38:28
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of arguments and at this point
38:31
Speaker 4: really a false speculation. We know that they have been
38:34
Speaker 4: discussing this in numbers of jurisdictions and Idaho is one
38:38
Speaker 4: of them. But the actual motives behind doing it that
38:41
Speaker 4: way are unclear to me.
38:43
Speaker 2: Joining me again, Star Body Bags A Joe Scott Morgan,
38:47
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Have we all lost our minds? An automated
38:52
Speaker 2: or digital system? So no human actually has to pull
38:57
Speaker 2: the trigger, because I've got a pretty good idea of
38:59
Speaker 2: somebody would like to pull the trigger, and that would
39:02
Speaker 2: be Kelly Gonsolvis, his mom and dad.
39:04
Speaker 1: I bet people are lined up to pull Yeah, there
39:07
Speaker 1: would be.
39:08
Speaker 4: There's any number. And how many times have I heard
39:10
Speaker 4: people say that since since this butchery went down, you know,
39:15
Speaker 4: just give me an opportunity to do it. But it's
39:18
Speaker 4: one thing to say that, it's another thing to step
39:21
Speaker 4: in and facilitate this. But we have to keep in mind,
39:25
Speaker 4: even with the capital punishment that they decide upon, it's
39:31
Speaker 4: just like anything else. If you're talking about lethal injection
39:34
Speaker 4: or as we we've recently used here in Alabama, this
39:38
Speaker 4: exposure to gas, you know, and we're talking about nitrogen
39:44
Speaker 4: gas that they're now using, there is a human element.
39:47
Speaker 4: Somebody has to press something, somebody has to flip something,
39:50
Speaker 4: somebody has to initiate the sequence, and you know, the
39:55
Speaker 4: military has had firing systems for years and years where
39:59
Speaker 4: they can target a weapon at a specific point. Now,
40:04
Speaker 4: I think the curious question here is are we talking
40:08
Speaker 4: about multiple multiple weapons that are being used in a
40:13
Speaker 4: traditional sense, or are we talking about a single weapon
40:16
Speaker 4: that is targeted, say, for instance, center mass over the
40:21
Speaker 4: individual to be executed over their hearts. That's quite quite
40:27
Speaker 4: something when you begin to think about it.
40:29
Speaker 2: You know what, Joe Scott, I love it when you
40:32
Speaker 2: start talking this way.
40:33
Speaker 1: But are you just to put it in a shell.
40:38
Speaker 2: They're considering an automated system where quote nobody has to
40:42
Speaker 2: pull the trigger. Okay, can we just see a shot
40:45
Speaker 2: of these victims, these four victims with their lives in
40:49
Speaker 2: front of them, falling to sleep in their own beds.
40:52
Speaker 2: They were slaughtered like animals getting rendered in at your shop.
41:03
Speaker 2: If evidence supports Coburger is guilty of these murders in
41:08
Speaker 2: some bizarre experiment to see what it felt like to
41:11
Speaker 2: kill people, he may very well be subjected to the
41:15
Speaker 2: Idaho death penalty if convicted. I guarantee you there would
41:22
Speaker 2: be a line wrapped around the building to pull the
41:28
Speaker 2: trigger at this juncture.
41:31
Speaker 1: He is innocent until proven guilty. In a court of law.
41:37
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,