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Fraggle Talk: Back to the Rock - Ep. 205 "I'm Pogey" · Muppet Fan Podcasts with ToughPigs.com

• 0:09
  Hello and welcome to Fraggle Talk Back to the Rock, the
• 0:12
  unofficial Fraggle Rock podcast brought to you by Tough
• 0:15
  figs.com. This is the podcast where we
• 0:17
  cover Fraggle Rock Back to the Rock episode by episode, along
• 0:21
  with the talented producers, performers, writers and builders
• 0:25
  who helped put it all together. I'm your host, silly creature
• 0:28
  Johannes. Today we are talking about
• 0:31
  Season 2, Episode 5. I'm Pogey, in which Wembley
• 0:35
  raises important questions about his identity, orientation and
• 0:38
  self worth. And Pogey is Pogey.
• 0:42
  This week we've got three come, three fabulous guests on the
• 0:46
  podcast returning from last season.
• 0:48
  He's the puppeteer who's repeated Pogey's catch phrase so
• 0:52
  many times they had to name a whole episode after it.
• 0:54
  It's Kanye Chen. Hello, Kanye.
• 0:57
  Hey Joe, thanks for having me. Thanks for coming back.
• 1:01
  Next, we have a newcomer to Fraggle Talk.
• 1:03
  They were a staff writer for Back to the Rock season one, a
• 1:06
  staff editor for Back to the Rock season 2, and a writer for
• 1:09
  this and several other other episodes of the series.
• 1:12
  It's Charlie Feldman. Hello, Charlie.
• 1:15
  Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks so much for being here.
• 1:19
  And last but certainly not least, he's Gobo.
• 1:23
  He's Sprocket. He's the architect Deucer.
• 1:25
  He's Barry Blueberry. He's a writer, a director,
• 1:27
  producer, a puppet captain. He's the creative supervisor for
• 1:30
  all of Fraggle Rock, whatever that means.
• 1:33
  It's Stone Tartaglia. He John.
• 1:37
  He needs a coffee after that introduction.
• 1:38
  My gosh. I read out of Breath halfway.
• 1:41
  You give so many titles, so many, so many responsibilities.
• 1:44
  My goodness. You forgot he's the wind beneath
• 1:47
  our wings. It's.
• 1:49
  True. You.
• 1:52
  It's so true. Hello.
• 1:54
  I'm so excited to get into this episode with all of you.
• 1:56
  There's so much to talk about. But before we do, Charlie, this
• 2:01
  is your first time on Fraggle Talk.
• 2:03
  Everyone else, when we did season one, we got their whole
• 2:06
  back story. So we're going to get yours
• 2:08
  right now. Can you tell us how you came to
• 2:11
  be working on the show? My whole back story that'll take
• 2:16
  a lot of time, but I was very lucky to have been working for
• 2:22
  Henson for the animated version of Harriet the Spy and while I
• 2:27
  was working there I just fell in love with.
• 2:31
  I mean I was already a hens it had before this labyrinth never
• 2:35
  ever ever left my VHS player as a kid many late fees I'm sure to
• 2:40
  blockbuster. I don't know.
• 2:41
  I wouldn't buy it, but we we rented it mostly.
• 2:45
  So, Hallie and I, who have you had Hallie on at all?
• 2:50
  The first season we have not yet had her on Season 2, but but
• 2:53
  we're we're bringing her in don't.
• 2:55
  Worry. Well, Hallie and I, we wrote an
• 2:57
  episode together of Harriet the Spy and I think that really
• 3:01
  cemented my Henson familyness 'cause we we bonded so much.
• 3:05
  And it was an episode about her late father and is very special
• 3:09
  to her and she's very special to me now.
• 3:11
  And she's like, have you considered ever working on
• 3:13
  Fraggar Rock? And I said I have not only
• 3:17
  considered it, I dare to dream it.
• 3:20
  So please may I have the opportunity.
• 3:23
  And luckily, lucky for me they they kept me on for now two
• 3:27
  seasons and hopefully more. Hopefully more.
• 3:31
  That's what we keep. Saying I just want to say
• 3:33
  quickly that Charlie, because they are so incredibly modest,
• 3:37
  is underselling their amazing track record as a writer and
• 3:41
  Hallie that. Was right.
• 3:43
  Right time, right place. I distinctly remember Hallie
• 3:48
  saying to me, do you know who Charlie Feldman is?
• 3:51
  They are this incredible writer. You would get along so well.
• 3:54
  And they are such a fraggle in real life too.
• 3:57
  And so I, I, I just wanted to give Hallie props for that, that
• 4:01
  Hallie is your, is your, is your biggest fan and could not have
• 4:03
  sung more praises. And it was completely correct.
• 4:07
  That's OK, I I'm a fraggle in that maybe I'm a boober with a
• 4:10
  red rising is sort of how I feel.
• 4:13
  A moon and pogey. Fraggle horoscope We need
• 4:17
  Fraggle horoscope. That's a.
• 4:19
  Good article that's happening pre article idea.
• 4:22
  You know, we, you guys are already making Labyrinth and I
• 4:25
  think Dark Crystal Tarot cards. Why not?
• 4:28
  Yeah. Why not?
• 4:29
  Fraggle too I have. To.
• 4:31
  Think about get the products folks on the line.
• 4:33
  I also like the idea that you just hire people who seem like
• 4:36
  fraggles like. Is that gonna help?
• 4:41
  You know what I mean? You have to have a certain
• 4:43
  spirit, you have to have a certain like energy and a
• 4:45
  certain heart to write for the show.
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  And I think that Charlie brings all of that.
• 4:50
  And that's why this episode especially is so, is so
• 4:53
  wonderful is because it, you know, Charlie really found the
• 4:57
  funny and the heart and the the meaning and that the best 5 rock
• 5:01
  episode, especially for the classic series.
• 5:02
  And now back to the rock. Or when all three of those
• 5:05
  things move in alignment with each other.
• 5:08
  I certainly made it personal and and from from my life and my
• 5:12
  experience, but let me just say it's our entire writers room
• 5:16
  that makes an episode. It's Alex and Matt and Johnny on
• 5:19
  down like it's all of us breaking the story and making it
• 5:24
  better and making it funnier and making it wonderful.
• 5:26
  So it's this show is extremely collaborative.
• 5:29
  And that's before we get to Kanye and the incredible team on
• 5:32
  on the production and performance.
• 5:34
  And so it is definitely not a just just a my episode.
• 5:39
  Well, yes, but those people are here today.
• 5:42
  Those people aren't here today. So you get to take all of the
• 5:45
  credit, so. That's.
• 5:47
  Right. Yeah, that's great.
• 5:49
  So let's talk about this episode.
• 5:51
  I'm Pogey is easily the most talked about episode from the
• 5:55
  season of Back to the Rock. Did you have an inkling that
• 5:59
  that would be true when you were writing it or when you were
• 6:01
  filming it? John, do you want to pick that?
• 6:05
  I mean, I think that I think finding this story in the
• 6:09
  writers room was a super emotional thing for us as as a
• 6:13
  group of writers, You know, you get really close to each other.
• 6:16
  Even though most of the work we did was on Zoom.
• 6:18
  We were together for 20 weeks writing, writing, you know, each
• 6:21
  season. And, you know, there were there
• 6:24
  were certain the beautiful part of the five Rock writers room is
• 6:28
  that and I think the original series was like this as well.
• 6:31
  Is that so, so often stories come out of people's personal
• 6:35
  lived experience or what, or what they're observing in the
• 6:38
  world that they would want to change or, or something that,
• 6:43
  you know, an advisor says, you know, when we have our kind of
• 6:45
  first, the beginning of the season meeting with our
• 6:47
  wonderful advisors of like, what are some issues that are
• 6:50
  important to families and kids? And one of the biggest things
• 6:53
  that got talked about in the room and from advisors that and
• 6:55
  you hear from parents is self identity, healthy
• 6:58
  self-expression and healthy self identity.
• 7:01
  And of course, we live in this world right now where, you know,
• 7:04
  people who identify one way or the other, certain groups of
• 7:09
  people are under attack or are feeling unsafe.
• 7:12
  And we just felt like if there's any kid out there in the world
• 7:16
  that doesn't feel OK as who they are, then that is something we
• 7:21
  have. It's like our duty to talk about
• 7:23
  that through this, this new version of Frackle Rock.
• 7:26
  So, you know, finding out in the writer's room was super
• 7:28
  emotional. And then I think, you know,
• 7:31
  we'll talk as we go. I don't want to front load at
• 7:34
  all, but but we definitely felt like on the set, you know, I was
• 7:39
  so incredibly blessed to direct this episode and and I felt that
• 7:43
  it was our duty to to make 1/2 hour of television that could
• 7:47
  possibly change lives and save lives.
• 7:50
  And I know that sounds super dramatic, but I feel like it's a
• 7:52
  subject matter that is, is needs to be discussed.
• 7:55
  And so there. So I guess it makes me really,
• 7:59
  really happy and makes me emotional to know that so many
• 8:02
  people are touched by this episode because it it it for
• 8:05
  everybody on this call and beyond.
• 8:07
  It meant a lot to all of us to make it.
• 8:11
  When Jim Henson conceived of the idea behind Fraggle Rock, he
• 8:17
  said he wanted to create ATV show to end war.
• 8:19
  And obviously we still have war. I mean, I hate to say he was
• 8:23
  unsuccessful in that regard, but when I think about, you know,
• 8:27
  the idea of our what you all creating, contributing to this
• 8:32
  idea of bringing peace to the world.
• 8:35
  This is exactly the kind of episode I think about when you
• 8:37
  say that you you were saving lives by, you know, creating
• 8:41
  this sense of understanding. That's that's so much in the not
• 8:46
  just the heart of of what Jim Henson wanted, which is what we
• 8:49
  all kind of strive for, but at the heart of what Fraggle Rock
• 8:52
  is and should be. And to be doing it in such an
• 8:56
  entertaining way, this, I mean, I, I don't think I'm speaking
• 9:00
  out of turn for anyone who's listening to this, but like, I
• 9:03
  think we all kind of agree this is easily the best episode of
• 9:05
  the season. Like, it's just so powerful for
• 9:08
  that, for that reason alone. Yeah.
• 9:10
  I mean, we talked about you can get literal about what war
• 9:15
  means, but certainly I think sometimes we can be at war with
• 9:18
  ourselves and want peace to our own minds and hearts and
• 9:22
  spirits, which is really hard to do sometimes in the world we
• 9:26
  live in. And it's an honor to be taking a
• 9:32
  lot of a lot of lines were extremely personal from my own
• 9:35
  life, things said to me, things I have thoughts.
• 9:39
  I I recognize that there's some viewers out there who wishes we
• 9:44
  weren't so or Wembley wasn't so mean to himself.
• 9:47
  And I agree. I think that people in my life
• 9:50
  have said that about me and I should be less mean.
• 9:54
  And I wish I was less mean to myself.
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  But it's, I don't know. It's it's tough sometimes being
• 10:00
  a writer for Fraggle Rock only in that we don't want to and we
• 10:05
  don't want to be mean to our characters.
• 10:07
  And we also don't, there's not a lot of like villains.
• 10:10
  There's no one who's just like especially like villainous or,
• 10:13
  or coming against us. So so this was a tricky in that
• 10:16
  way to be like, well, sometimes we're on our we're on worst
• 10:20
  enemies, but we're not bad people.
• 10:22
  We're just trying to figure out our own stuff out.
• 10:25
  And with something like identity, be a gender identity
• 10:27
  or expression of any kind, you're just always in a process
• 10:32
  of finding yourself. What's more playful and fraggly
• 10:35
  than than that is just taking who you are and and figuring it
• 10:40
  out in a, in a, in a, in a dance, in a playful way.
• 10:44
  And this also came, you know, it's, it's, it's because
• 10:47
  there's, there's all of that. Everything Charlie just said is
• 10:49
  right. And and there was also this
• 10:51
  lovely desire to take a character like Pokey, who in the
• 10:55
  first season was a fantastic funny, you know, like, I mean,
• 11:00
  my Lord, if you needed a laugh, like you had pokie run through
• 11:03
  and say something. And first of all, Kanye is one
• 11:06
  of the most incredible performers I have ever worked
• 11:08
  with because he just throws his heart and his soul into
• 11:11
  everything he does on that set and is like the greatest puppet
• 11:16
  find in the in the hands in history because he's so
• 11:19
  incredibly good. And and you know, but we, but we
• 11:22
  had so much fun writing for Pokey in the first season.
• 11:25
  You know, with all those, especially the with the poor
• 11:27
  red, you know, who's become it's the great to have this Pokey red
• 11:30
  back and forth, but she loves him.
• 11:32
  But you know, Pokey drives red crazy.
• 11:36
  But we were like, Oh, we want we want them to have more, you
• 11:41
  know, to get to know Pokey more and to and to realize, because I
• 11:44
  think Jim did this with so many of his characters, right, where
• 11:47
  like the seemingly the monster who you think is just a monster
• 11:51
  ends up being this incredibly emotional creature.
• 11:53
  Or, you know, the the the one word non verbal character ends
• 11:58
  up being the biggest thinker and the deepest has the deepest
• 12:01
  meaning. So we thought it'd be beautiful
• 12:03
  that Pokey who who you know, we did use primarily for just
• 12:07
  wonderful fraggily fun in the first season and have this other
• 12:10
  side and explain why Pokey says I am Pokey and and, you know,
• 12:16
  explain why they had this incredible confidence.
• 12:19
  I think it was important to show it is such a Fraggle message,
• 12:22
  right. But like you know, people or
• 12:24
  Fraggles are always just how you perceive them.
• 12:29
  That the the idea of what you just described of Pokey being so
• 12:33
  confident and and that's kind of where it comes from.
• 12:38
  First of all, it fits so well. And I would be shocked if this
• 12:41
  wasn't a part of Pogies character from season one, but I
• 12:45
  have to assume it, it kind of came up with with, you know,
• 12:48
  breaking the story here for season 2.
• 12:50
  Kanye, was this anything that you kind of had an inkling of
• 12:55
  from season one or, and like with the things that we learned
• 13:00
  about Pogi in this episode, when were you brought into the fold
• 13:03
  to be a part of that character development?
• 13:07
  Yeah. So the first part of the first
• 13:09
  part of your question, season one.
• 13:11
  No, I mean, I, I think season one really was discovering who
• 13:16
  Pogey was. And that's, I mean, I think that
• 13:19
  that's just, it's such a great word discovery because I, I
• 13:22
  really do believe that Pogey exists and has always existed.
• 13:26
  And it was really a, it was a group effort to really find out
• 13:30
  who Pogey was. I remember, I mean, I'll just
• 13:33
  give a little, little story when I was just trying to figure out
• 13:36
  who Pogey was in season one. I remember I was sitting down
• 13:39
  and just doing these little like one like one word or and I was
• 13:43
  just like. Yep.
• 13:45
  You know, just like thinking like just A1 little thing.
• 13:49
  And then and Johnny, Johnny, you turned to me and you're kind of
• 13:51
  like OK, And I was like, yeah, that like that's exactly yes
• 13:56
  with like we've we both know who bogey is right now.
• 13:59
  Like we are finding who pogey was, who pogey is or was.
• 14:04
  And, and in terms of second season, like I just, I remember
• 14:11
  Matt kind of coming up to me and going at the beginning of the
• 14:15
  season. We are so excited about the
• 14:18
  season. We've got some great big plans,
• 14:22
  but Matt didn't tell me anything other than that.
• 14:24
  Just like we've got some exciting stuff.
• 14:25
  And I think, I think think the right, the writers, I don't
• 14:27
  know. I mean, I'm just assuming from
• 14:29
  the, the conversations I've had with different writers, they all
• 14:32
  have, they all knew and they really wanted to tell me, but
• 14:34
  they like were sworn to secrecy because no one broke.
• 14:37
  Like no one broke and no one told me.
• 14:41
  I didn't. I didn't know until until I got
• 14:44
  the script until they actually. You you can handle it.
• 14:47
  Yeah, it was great. I mean, I loved it I mean I
• 14:49
  loved all of it and and you know when I read it, I was like,
• 14:52
  yeah, Yep, yeah, the right. The writers absolutely know
• 14:56
  hoagie. That's that's one of the reasons
• 14:59
  why, you know, I really look at, at being offered or being given
• 15:02
  the opportunity to perform Pogie as a, a true gift.
• 15:05
  Because Pogey is like I said, is I don't just say Pogey.
• 15:09
  Pogey's not my character, just like this episode's not any one
• 15:12
  of our episode. Pogey is a character that
• 15:16
  everyone can connect with and everyone knows Pogey really
• 15:19
  well. Like I, I read people's comments
• 15:22
  all the time. I'm like, Yep, you know, Pogey,
• 15:24
  Yep, you've got Pogey. And that really shined through
• 15:27
  in, in season 2 for me when I started reading a lot of the
• 15:30
  scripts. And I was, I was like, yes,
• 15:32
  that's great for my own, for my own sense of character.
• 15:36
  Character season one, one of the things I had to do is try to
• 15:39
  create my like my own backstories and my own thinking.
• 15:42
  And I remember I had said to, I think it was probably Jordan
• 15:44
  Lockhart who we were just fooling around.
• 15:46
  And I was like, I, I totally feel like Pogey would run
• 15:49
  through, knock over all of the, the radishes that, that
• 15:54
  Wembley's carrying as, as Wembley's counting them.
• 15:57
  And I just yell out 374 and just keep running.
• 16:02
  And it's not to the end of the episode that you'll actually
• 16:04
  find out that's exactly how many radishes were there.
• 16:08
  But that was just, again, it was just something that I I was
• 16:10
  like, yeah, I think that that fits within the the, you know,
• 16:13
  the spirit of who Pogey is. And then leave it to this
• 16:17
  writers room and these writers to deliver script after script
• 16:22
  all the way, like throughout the entire season.
• 16:25
  But, you know, especially with with I'm Pogey, I'm Pogey
• 16:28
  episode. And I'm just like, they've,
• 16:31
  they've got pokey. They've absolutely got pokey.
• 16:34
  Yep, it's been, it's been fantastic.
• 16:35
  I'm so I'm so happy. And Pokey is so fun to write for
• 16:39
  because Pokey is sort of like the the noble fool archetype,
• 16:43
  but also their very own thing. But like the noble fool is wiser
• 16:47
  than all of us and also an an absolute idiot sometimes.
• 16:51
  And that's it's for for a world that is very silly.
• 16:56
  The the having an even more foolish character, I think it's
• 16:59
  kind of hard to do, but it's it's Connie's performance and
• 17:03
  certainly where we've found them in the stories.
• 17:06
  Yeah, that's an interesting concept, kind of being like the
• 17:08
  town idiot in a town of idiots and like you really.
• 17:12
  Kind of have to push that yeah yeah.
• 17:14
  Well, and and and I remember David Gold saying when we were
• 17:17
  developing back to rock the first season, we were you know
• 17:20
  we were going to the different characters on the different
• 17:22
  editions and things like that. We were talking about who Pokey
• 17:25
  was and that Pokey was, you know, like the, the, you know,
• 17:28
  pogey throws their heart 100% into it no matter what it is and
• 17:32
  is, you know, can come across a bit simple and in the best
• 17:36
  possible way. And, and Dave was just laughing
• 17:38
  hilariously. And he's like, he's like, we
• 17:40
  need that. He's like, we need that like
• 17:42
  extra character, you know, that like really has that kind of a
• 17:46
  personality. And I think the moment for some
• 17:48
  reason, I don't know why, because it was one line, but I
• 17:51
  just remember this moment from the first season of shooting
• 17:54
  that I was like, oh gosh, that character, like Pokey is so part
• 17:59
  of the Canon now was during Night of the Lights where Pokey
• 18:03
  runs through covered in in glow grapes.
• 18:07
  And just as like, yeah. And like it's just, and you're
• 18:10
  just like, you know exactly who that character is.
• 18:12
  You're like, Pokey absolutely is that kid who goes 150% when
• 18:18
  everyone else is like skirting 100 Pokey's at 150.
• 18:22
  It's totally OK. And I think that that's just
• 18:24
  solidified who they are. They're just so committed to who
• 18:27
  they are. They have no apologies to make
• 18:29
  for who they are. There were two things after
• 18:33
  season one ended that a lot of us, mostly me were saying this
• 18:39
  is what I really want out of season 2.
• 18:41
  Both of them I will, I will tease.
• 18:43
  Both of them are in this episode, but the first one was I
• 18:46
  want a pokey centric episode and I'm very happy that you that you
• 18:50
  delivered on that. The second one we will get to as
• 18:53
  we discussed this episode, which what a great segue that was that
• 18:56
  I accidentally. Felt that pointed to.
• 18:58
  Let's talk about this episode. I'm Pokey opens on Dock and
• 19:04
  Sprocket's workshop. Docket.
• 19:05
  Dock. Excuse me, Sprocket.
• 19:08
  I've never said docket before, but I feel like that comes up.
• 19:11
  Docket. No, that's a couple name.
• 19:14
  Oh my gosh, a season. Yeah, you could.
• 19:16
  You could have that one, Johnny, if you want to throw that into
• 19:18
  Season 3. I'm making T-shirt.
• 19:20
  Sprocket. Great.
• 19:22
  Sprocket is watching a video of young Doc singing at a talent
• 19:26
  show. I was curious.
• 19:28
  I paused it on the talent show video he's watching on a website
• 19:32
  calledcoolclips.com. Cool with Aki, Went to
• 19:36
  coolclips.com. Someone someone else owns.
• 19:39
  There's nothing there. Oh God, thank God.
• 19:42
  There's nothing there, but it is not available to purchase, I'm
• 19:46
  sorry to say. So if you want to see this
• 19:48
  video, you'll have to go to some other website.
• 19:50
  There are all these commenters on the side and they're all like
• 19:55
  people's names. You're nodding.
• 19:56
  OK, so that means that these are real people.
• 19:59
  There are there are tons of Easter eggs in there and I don't
• 20:02
  recall them specifically right now, but I remember when we were
• 20:04
  creating them. Like, I think one of them, if
• 20:07
  I'm remembering quickly, is Philip.
• 20:09
  Henry Wu or Philip Wu? Yes, I wrote them all down.
• 20:12
  You. Got Phil Philip.
• 20:14
  Oh, you did 16? Yes.
• 20:16
  Yes, so, so Philip was mine and Hallie's producing assistant on
• 20:20
  on the series and for the second season and and he is a
• 20:24
  lifesaver. And and so that was that was
• 20:28
  that was one fun thing and they were with the others.
• 20:29
  They'll say yeah. I'm going to give you all of
• 20:30
  them. You're going to tell me who
• 20:31
  these people are. Dylan Dog 12/24.
• 20:36
  Dylan dog, that's Dylan Dog is probably, I think Dylan who was
• 20:41
  part of our camera team, I'm going to guess.
• 20:43
  All right, Nadie Nunu. I have no idea who that is.
• 20:51
  Harriet MC555. Harriet MC.
• 20:57
  No, maybe they don't, I think. Somebody's, somebody's must be
• 20:59
  made-up. Maybe.
• 20:59
  Wait, wait, wait. Is that Alex's daughter?
• 21:01
  Harry? The sea has a daughter named
• 21:06
  Harriet. Maybe it's for Harriet.
• 21:08
  Oh, maybe so. Yeah.
• 21:10
  Yeah. Ira, Windsor Square.
• 21:13
  That's also Alex's kid. Alex, you cutie pie.
• 21:19
  Christina and Rob 5714 Christina.
• 21:24
  It's got to be like more kids, more people's.
• 21:26
  Kids, yeah, I think there's, I think it was an opportunity to
• 21:28
  like throw loving totally names in there.
• 21:31
  Last one, Madison loves to swim. Mad Oh is that Madison?
• 21:36
  It's Madison. OK, so that's a quick funny
• 21:43
  story. So I was staying Oh my God,
• 21:45
  Charlie's going to die. So OK, this is this is an
• 21:50
  insider story. So so I had gone to this this
• 21:55
  resort for like a weekend away. It's a it's a it's like a spa
• 21:59
  resort kind of place that and, and I was explaining to the
• 22:05
  writers room that there was this mother there and she had this
• 22:11
  giant hat. I remember she was remember that
• 22:13
  SNL skid that giant hats. It was like she had one of those
• 22:15
  giant hats on and her daughter was in the pool and her name was
• 22:20
  Madison and all this mother comes to Madison.
• 22:24
  Madison. You got to go to the pool.
• 22:26
  Madison, Madison, we got to go. We're going to get you want
• 22:29
  chicken fingers Madison Madison and I was obsessed with how she
• 22:34
  said Madison has two syllables. Madison and also just like it
• 22:38
  was it was it was just drama that I had the privilege of
• 22:41
  seeing and watching. And so I came back to the
• 22:43
  writers room and talked about it.
• 22:44
  And so it became a running gag in the writers room for all 20
• 22:46
  weeks where basically like every now and then Matt festival or
• 22:50
  August cuff person just like Madison Madison.
• 22:52
  You want to get lunch, Madison? So I that's exactly what that
• 22:57
  is. And I'm so I'm ashamed that I
• 22:59
  did not pick up on that and pulled out.
• 23:01
  I I was hoping it would be a reference to the movie Splash,
• 23:06
  but your story was much better. It's not not.
• 23:09
  So this is this is a podcast. It's not a visual medium.
• 23:13
  But I did leave for a moment because we got mugs to
• 23:17
  commemorate our then and it literally says Madison on the
• 23:19
  back but I don't know where my mug is.
• 23:22
  Oh. Oh, that's.
• 23:23
  Fun. Alright guys, you can't see it
• 23:24
  anyway because it's a podcast. Just hold up.
• 23:26
  Hold up. Wow.
• 23:27
  Look at that beautiful mug that you're holding up right now.
• 23:30
  Look at two of them. Wow.
• 23:32
  Amazing. Matt Then you want a mug
• 23:34
  matching on top, pigs matching. I don't want to talk to your
• 23:36
  hands. That's that's the story.
• 23:40
  Incredible. Thank you for sharing that that
• 23:42
  non. Credible with this dime?
• 23:44
  I'm so happy you took the time to find that out.
• 23:49
  Anyway, Sprocket's watching this video.
• 23:50
  Doc is not having it. That's kind of the end of that
• 23:53
  story. All right, let's move on.
• 23:55
  Wembley is helping Moki pick out hats for Lanford.
• 23:59
  Wembley's an expert because he helps Gobo pick out his hats a
• 24:02
  little. A little hat lore for Gobo?
• 24:04
  Yes, always trying. To put that in there.
• 24:07
  Why does Lanford need a hat? Oh, because Moki thinks so.
• 24:12
  I mean, it's not it's. Yeah.
• 24:14
  That's good reason. I was just thinking like they're
• 24:15
  underground. It's not like they got to keep
• 24:17
  the sun out of his eyes. He doesn't even have eyes.
• 24:19
  You know, we were still trying to set up the idea that even
• 24:22
  after they resolve it in Episode 3, that like, Moki is still a
• 24:26
  little too obsessed with Lanford.
• 24:28
  And so she's still. A mom.
• 24:30
  Yeah, right. Like it's a line in a a A to
• 24:34
  Wong Fu, like it's a wear something hat day.
• 24:37
  So it feels like it's like, you know, Moki would absolutely be
• 24:39
  like Lanford this today. It's Thursday.
• 24:40
  We need a hat today. Like, I think that that's just
• 24:42
  where Moki Sprank goes. I always ever had a pet.
• 24:45
  You want to You want to accessorize the pet.
• 24:47
  Yeah. To see them in different hats
• 24:50
  and outfits. So yeah, it's just kind of that,
• 24:54
  all right. And we're all playing and we're
• 24:55
  all playing with identity anyway.
• 24:57
  And, and, and presentation. And so Lanford gets to play with
• 25:00
  Lanford's presentation as well. There you go.
• 25:03
  Approved. Wembley finds Moki's old robe,
• 25:07
  and it's the robe from the original Freckle Rock series.
• 25:11
  Moki. He asked her why she would ever
• 25:13
  change. She said, oh, something inside
• 25:14
  me said it was time for a change.
• 25:16
  New outfit, new hairdo. You're really driving home like
• 25:19
  this is this is the same Moki, but she has made some fashion
• 25:23
  changes. Well, you know, we we.
• 25:26
  I mean soft. New soft.
• 25:28
  New, yeah. Soften it.
• 25:29
  We pay attention to the Fraggle discourse that's out there.
• 25:33
  And I know that there was a lot of, you know, fans who were
• 25:36
  like, why did they change mocha? Like, you know, and, and you
• 25:40
  know, and we knew that was going to happen and we had a lot of
• 25:42
  really considerate and careful conversations about that before
• 25:45
  we did it. But you know, the thing that
• 25:47
  people ask that I'm always like, I think maybe everyone doesn't
• 25:51
  know is it is literally the same patterned puppet.
• 25:54
  It is not, you know, it's the same is Raleigh Crewson approved
• 25:58
  the patterns who of course built on the original series.
• 26:00
  And it is it is literally the 1982 patterns from Loki.
• 26:04
  It's just different hair in a different outfit, but the same
• 26:07
  eyes and fleeks. So, you know, and I think we
• 26:10
  just wanted a reason to explain it.
• 26:12
  And it just felt so right for this episode.
• 26:14
  And, and we thought that the fans would get a kick out of,
• 26:16
  you know, acknowledging the fact that she used to wear this robe
• 26:19
  and now she doesn't. Yeah, we absolutely do
• 26:22
  appreciate it. Yeah.
• 26:24
  And, and you know, it, it does feel like it's a nod for us.
• 26:27
  We we like those kinds of Easter eggs of just like wink, wink.
• 26:30
  It's, it's real if you want it to be, you know, like the whole,
• 26:33
  the whole original series happened if you wanted it to
• 26:35
  happen. Yeah, we were excited.
• 26:38
  We were super shooting that at. We were super.
• 26:40
  I remember Jordan Lockhart, who was our brilliant Gwen Lee when
• 26:43
  when we were shooting that moment.
• 26:44
  He's like, oh, fans are going to lose their minds.
• 26:46
  It's like, yeah, they are. It's going to be awesome.
• 26:48
  So yeah. Yeah, we thank you.
• 26:50
  We thank you for that. I think it's a nice in world
• 26:52
  reason for why we're talking about this today.
• 26:56
  We're talking about this because every one of these characters
• 26:59
  has the ability to explore how they are in this world, how they
• 27:03
  present, how they play. So this just it worked out on
• 27:07
  all levels. Absolutely, yeah, Red rushes and
• 27:11
  she tells them. Stop what you're doing.
• 27:14
  We're doing a Fraggle stack. It's also.
• 27:19
  It's also sort of that thing where you, I don't think we ever
• 27:23
  are clear about who's older than who.
• 27:24
  Age sort of doesn't really matter here, but it is sort of
• 27:27
  that experience that I think a lot of people, regardless of how
• 27:30
  you identify where you have an older sibling and you kind of
• 27:33
  want to dress how they dressed. So I think that's the first
• 27:36
  inkling of Wembley being like, I've always, I remembered this
• 27:40
  robe, this robe exemplified you in this way.
• 27:43
  What would it look like on me? How would that be for me?
• 27:46
  So it's sort of that that wearing your mom's heels or
• 27:51
  dad's tie. But we don't have parents here.
• 27:54
  So we have a elder ish sibling ish I'm.
• 27:59
  I'm glad to hear you say that because there was a part of me
• 28:01
  that wondered. Obviously Wembley is not trying
• 28:05
  to be Moki or to be more like monkey there.
• 28:07
  Like we like that's that. There's an old episode from the
• 28:09
  original series where where Red tries to do that.
• 28:12
  That's not the story you're telling here.
• 28:14
  So there is the question of so why?
• 28:15
  Like he takes Moki's robe. It looks like he takes Moki's
• 28:18
  necklace. He's using what he thinks is
• 28:21
  Moki's hair goop. We'll get to that in a minute.
• 28:23
  Like there's definitely a connection to Moki, but that,
• 28:25
  but that's not really part of the story we're telling here.
• 28:28
  But. Wembley doesn't have.
• 28:30
  Yeah. And Wembley is such a, you know,
• 28:32
  we always talk about what are the inner relationships of the
• 28:34
  characters. And Wembley has such a
• 28:37
  appreciation for Moki. And I think it's fascinated by
• 28:41
  her ability to just own herself and who she is.
• 28:44
  I mean, Moki never questions whether or not she should fall
• 28:47
  into a trance in the middle of a conversation, just does it.
• 28:50
  So, you know, I think that he really looks up to her.
• 28:52
  But also, I think Wembley is the one character that, you know,
• 28:56
  he's so innocent. Wembley's heart is so pure and
• 29:00
  so innocent. I mean, I think that's what I
• 29:01
  love about that character, love about Wembley, is that he just
• 29:04
  really would walk to the end of the earth if he told him to for
• 29:07
  somebody that he wouldn't have the wherewithal to have an
• 29:12
  understanding of why this would be weird or wrong.
• 29:16
  You know, the only time that even kind of occurs to him is
• 29:19
  when he mistake, he makes a mistake, which we're getting to
• 29:22
  about how Red reacts. He misunderstands it.
• 29:25
  That's the first time he would even, he just thought it was a
• 29:27
  wonderful thing to do. And why couldn't I wear this
• 29:29
  robe? And that might be cool if I
• 29:31
  express myself for that. He's so innocent in his want.
• 29:34
  And I think that that's why we we chose him to, to be the main
• 29:37
  focus of the story for that reason.
• 29:39
  Yeah, absolutely. And can I just say like it, I
• 29:42
  really connected, connected with that moment with Wembley because
• 29:46
  I was the, you know, I was that four year old kid who was raised
• 29:49
  by like a really hippie mom. I mean, extremely hippie mom who
• 29:54
  had communal clothing bins in the, the, the daycare that I
• 29:58
  grew up in. But she showed me this green,
• 30:01
  this little green dress that she grew up in.
• 30:03
  It meant so much to her and it was one of my favorite outfits
• 30:07
  to wear when I was little because because it was connected
• 30:10
  to someone I absolutely loved. And so, and I believe Johnny has
• 30:13
  seen it, but there's, so there's an image, there's a picture I
• 30:16
  have of me at probably 3 in my mom's little green dress.
• 30:20
  And it was one of, and I and I also had a red, red ribbon in my
• 30:24
  hair as well. And it was, you know, it to me,
• 30:28
  it was the symbol. It was a symbol of connecting
• 30:31
  with my mom when she was little. So I couldn't, I couldn't play
• 30:34
  with my mom when she was little, but was connecting to her.
• 30:36
  And so I, I really think that, at least the way I interpret it
• 30:40
  as well, it's the same, it's that same feeling that we have
• 30:43
  when we're young and, and we don't see all those, those,
• 30:47
  those, you know, delineated lines of what we can and cannot
• 30:49
  do. It's, you know, we're really
• 30:51
  looking at it as this is a connection to this person who I
• 30:53
  really care about. That's exactly right.
• 30:56
  And and, you know, we talked about that in the writers room
• 30:58
  too, about like how the only moment a little boy might think
• 31:02
  that it's quote UN quote wrong to play with girl stuff, or the
• 31:06
  only moment a little girl would be, you know, told it's wrong to
• 31:09
  dress up in quote UN quote boy stuff.
• 31:11
  The only time that actually hits them is when a friend or family
• 31:16
  member or a parent or adult calls it out and says something
• 31:20
  about it. They, you know, we don't
• 31:21
  naturally as as creatures have that awareness of girls or boys,
• 31:26
  This is right or wrong. So, you know, I, I remember
• 31:30
  putting on my mom's heels and wearing my mom's robe and the
• 31:33
  only inclination I had that it was, quote UN quote wrong was
• 31:36
  when, you know, someone older said, like, what are you doing
• 31:39
  in that? That's the first time it hits
• 31:41
  you. And so that was the moment we
• 31:42
  were trying to capture with Wembley of like, you know, that
• 31:45
  that innocence of like, hi everyone, I'm here and this
• 31:47
  thing that I think I like to wear and it feels good.
• 31:49
  And then it's thinking that people are are chastising him
• 31:53
  for it. I mean, what's sillier than
• 31:55
  gendering clothes? Like not in a linguistic sense.
• 31:57
  I'm sorry, Latin languages that gender every object, but like
• 32:01
  actually like I'm, I'm really glad we you have an opportunity
• 32:05
  to have Moki her robe because robe, you know, dress.
• 32:09
  You might might feel like this is a gendered item, even though
• 32:11
  I don't think it should be. But a robe is is not a,
• 32:14
  especially not a. Very.
• 32:15
  Everyone wears robes. Yeah, I own a robe.
• 32:19
  I own a robe that that, no joke, looks exactly like that Gray
• 32:23
  robe with the same, like, knit pattern that's kind of missing a
• 32:26
  few, you know, loops or whatever.
• 32:29
  And like, I love it because it's just really comfortable.
• 32:31
  It's like, it's my favorite robe.
• 32:33
  I wear it all the time. Or.
• 32:34
  I guess it's more of a cardigan, but still.
• 32:36
  I mean, like, yeah, it's not gendered.
• 32:38
  It's just a Gray piece of fabric.
• 32:41
  It's it's, it's so not gendered. It's like aggressively not
• 32:44
  gendered. But it's different from Wembley.
• 32:47
  All of our characters mostly wear the same thing everyday.
• 32:50
  So it just so breaks Wembley out of their pattern in a way that
• 32:55
  really jolts everybody in a way that never had before that say.
• 33:01
  Well, and this is a larger conversation, but like Fraggle
• 33:04
  Rock historically has kind of been proactive in being non
• 33:12
  gendered. You know, you've got red Fraggle
• 33:14
  who is the athletic one and you've got Boober who loves to
• 33:18
  do laundry. The only times it really comes
• 33:19
  up like once in awhile with traveling mat, like often with
• 33:22
  the Gorgs because they've got this whole patriarchy matriarchy
• 33:25
  thing going on. But like for the most part, it's
• 33:28
  just doesn't come up. And it seems like that may have
• 33:31
  actually been a bit of a challenge for for you, Charlie,
• 33:33
  because you're writing something where you've got a character who
• 33:36
  identifies as male historically, who's starting to ask these
• 33:40
  questions. But what is male and what is
• 33:42
  female in the Fraggle Rock world?
• 33:44
  Well, I mean, I assume I'm making that assumption.
• 33:46
  Is that true that that was difficult for you to kind of
• 33:49
  wrap your brain around when writing this?
• 33:51
  I think for all of us this was difficult because I mean, me
• 33:55
  coming from the perspective of a non binary person like I, I
• 33:59
  certainly I do not represent all my binary people, but I do use
• 34:04
  they, them pronouns because that establishes a little at least
• 34:07
  again, linguistically that I, I see myself in such a way.
• 34:11
  And I would like you to honor that.
• 34:13
  And the only thing I feel with our Fraggles is their pronouns.
• 34:17
  We we use she her for red and Moki and we use he him for women
• 34:21
  and gobo. But other than that, it's not
• 34:25
  really like a strict to our world concept of that.
• 34:32
  So when you first thought about maybe talking about and again, I
• 34:35
  don't want to belabor that it is only about gender.
• 34:38
  It's also about identity. They're they're for those who
• 34:40
  know you can hear my my non binary story and trans story
• 34:45
  here, but also identity and presentation and and finding
• 34:49
  yourself in general. But if we are to talk about
• 34:52
  gender here a little bit, it is something that we thought about
• 34:57
  first season so much so that we almost and this is getting a
• 35:02
  little hug myself. This is where Boxing Day first
• 35:04
  began was for my previous episode that I wrote for fight
• 35:08
  of the flutter fives because we were talking about holidays in
• 35:11
  that episode. We thought about a holiday
• 35:14
  called Boxing Day that would be our only talk about gender
• 35:18
  identity or expression. So that got removed from that
• 35:22
  episode and made a whole lot of sense here to sort of balance
• 35:25
  this out for for all of our character areas.
• 35:30
  And yeah, it's just it's it's it is a silly concept in our world
• 35:36
  too, frankly. But it also, especially for
• 35:39
  those who are on on the binary end of things, it's comforting
• 35:45
  because it feels like it's something you can hold close to
• 35:48
  your heart and feel like this is me.
• 35:50
  And I, I feel like that for for anything in between and outside
• 35:54
  entirely. As soon as you are like, oh,
• 35:56
  that's me. It there's a you'd be you get a
• 35:59
  pokey, you get someone who wants to yell it from the rooftops and
• 36:03
  I'm gone. So I'm Captain tangent.
• 36:05
  I I really appreciate. You that's OK.
• 36:07
  That's this is what we're tangenting for is for these
• 36:10
  kinds of conversations. Yeah.
• 36:12
  Well, and and and we should just say very quickly that I'm sorry,
• 36:14
  I was going to say just a support.
• 36:16
  Charlie said that we we also had a lot of conversations about how
• 36:19
  the original series, even they never obviously talked about
• 36:22
  gender identity in the way that that you can find it in this
• 36:26
  episode. But but they did do episodes
• 36:28
  where it was like, you know, global was challenging red, you
• 36:31
  know, from a male, female perspective, or there was a, you
• 36:34
  know, a Reds club or there was, there were there were moments
• 36:37
  where like they touched on it, but they also very specifically,
• 36:41
  and we, we definitely have followed this to a tee.
• 36:43
  Is, you know, there was there's there was that infamous episode
• 36:46
  that got killed, I think, by Karen and and and Kathy about
• 36:50
  like, you know, one of them having a crush on a, on a male
• 36:53
  fraggle. And so we, we very purposely
• 36:55
  avoid that sort of thing. And, you know, the closest to
• 36:59
  that would be Storyteller having her, you know, her or moments
• 37:03
  about travelling that. That's probably the closest we
• 37:05
  get to that sort of, you know, affinity for gender and for
• 37:08
  crushes and for, you know, that sort of the thing.
• 37:10
  But the faggles just, you know, they're their own persons.
• 37:15
  And and so, you know, when this sort of story came up, if it was
• 37:18
  like, this is the way we can do a gender identity story, but not
• 37:22
  necessarily call it that and not ever name it that.
• 37:24
  You know, you never hear Wendy never questions whether or not
• 37:27
  he's, you know, non binary or male or female or trans or
• 37:30
  anything. It's more just about how he is
• 37:33
  expressing himself. And the hope is that any kid, no
• 37:36
  matter what they're what they're going through, whether it's a
• 37:39
  gender identity, whether it's it's, you know, gay or straight
• 37:43
  or anything that they're going through where they don't feel
• 37:46
  like or they feel that if they do something that will show
• 37:51
  themselves in a different way and people may judge it.
• 37:54
  You know, that's what we were hoping that people would relate
• 37:56
  to. So I think Charlie did a
• 37:57
  brilliant job in finding this really universal way in with
• 38:01
  with Wembley Story. Anyone who feels like an
• 38:04
  outsider, I hope really sees themselves who, whether it's
• 38:08
  it's perceived, because certainly our Fraggles aren't
• 38:10
  trying to ostracize Wembley. It does have to get a little
• 38:13
  more internal for for him. But yeah, the the point is like,
• 38:17
  sometimes we find ourselves in in any part of our lives,
• 38:21
  whether we're kids or adults, but we're like, I don't want to
• 38:23
  be judged for something that I I love or something that I'm
• 38:27
  exploring too soon. Like if I, if I, if I say this
• 38:30
  too soon and I haven't figured it out for myself, like, yeah,
• 38:34
  that will explode everything. My relationships, my my sense
• 38:37
  of, of like equanimity, like it's, it's, it's really tough to
• 38:42
  explore yourself in this world and you just hope for Fraggle
• 38:45
  friends who are like, wherever you end up, we love you and.
• 38:50
  You're also describing. I mean, look, I, I identify as
• 38:53
  a, you know, straight male and I felt so much of what Wembley
• 38:59
  felt because I also come from like this fandom world where
• 39:02
  like I've been obsessed with things like Muppets for you had
• 39:07
  parts of my life where like people didn't really get that.
• 39:10
  And just like Wembley in this episode, you got to find the
• 39:13
  people who do get it and tell you it's OK for you to be who
• 39:16
  you are and for you to kind of let go of that fear of wondering
• 39:20
  like, are they going to, you know, like me still?
• 39:22
  Are they not going to get the things that, you know, I've been
• 39:24
  hiding this part of me? Are they not going to get it
• 39:26
  when I start to like really, you know, let it fly like a flag?
• 39:29
  And you know, it's not doesn't hold the same weight in a lot of
• 39:35
  ways as some of the topics that we're talking about today.
• 39:37
  But like, it's still, I mean, I think a lot of people can see
• 39:40
  that truth in their own experiences like I do.
• 39:43
  I have. I mean, certainly I I hope we
• 39:45
  never legislate against fandoms. Can you imagine we're all moving
• 39:51
  to Canada after that? Yeah, seriously.
• 39:55
  All right, so anyway, let's let's get back to this episode.
• 39:57
  I'm sure this stuff is going to come back into conversation
• 40:00
  several times throughout this podcast.
• 40:02
  But in the Great Hall, we're doing a Fraggle stack.
• 40:06
  The Fraggles are basically doing a human pyramid, but they're
• 40:08
  with Fraggles. Pogi is there at the top.
• 40:11
  Kanye, can you tell us like, where are you?
• 40:14
  Like, are you like on a ladder or something?
• 40:16
  Yeah, it's, yeah, it, it was quite the, the, the, the, the
• 40:23
  challenge to try to make sure that this Fraggle stack, you
• 40:27
  know, worked on a basic level just like a puppeteer
• 40:30
  perspective, but also like performance.
• 40:33
  And I remember kind of like doing the math and I was like
• 40:35
  looking and I was like, OK, what?
• 40:37
  So, you know, we, we are physical puppeteers who take up
• 40:40
  space. And so we've got a line of
• 40:42
  puppeteers in the bottom row, and they're going to take up the
• 40:46
  space right behind those puppets.
• 40:48
  And then the next row on top of them is going to take another
• 40:53
  whole human. You know, now we're adding to
• 40:55
  the depth of this this stack. And I think we have another row
• 40:59
  which, which had more. So now we're three humans deep.
• 41:04
  And they're like, and you know, Kanye, you got to be on the top.
• 41:08
  So I was like, oh, oh. And so, yeah, it was, it was
• 41:12
  actually a lot of teamwork figuring it all out.
• 41:16
  The the latter option was not an option just for safety.
• 41:19
  We made sure like, Nope. So they ended up building a, a
• 41:22
  wonderfully stable, safe platform.
• 41:27
  And the, the amazing wrangling crew cut a hole in the, the back
• 41:32
  of Pokey's head so I could puppeteer through the back of
• 41:35
  Pokey's head. So it was easy to access just,
• 41:37
  you know, leaning forward. And I had, you know, what I was
• 41:41
  like harnessed and I had, you know, a railing there that was
• 41:45
  keeping me from, you know, fault plunging anywhere.
• 41:47
  But so I leaned forward and it was it was fantastic.
• 41:51
  I actually remember watching it and and seeing the take and I
• 41:54
  went, damn, that looked good and I did not know how they were
• 41:58
  gonna be able to do it. And it looked good.
• 42:01
  It's actually something I paused and rewind quite a lot.
• 42:03
  When I'm watching it, I go, wow, they pulled it off.
• 42:06
  So yeah, so that's the technical piece.
• 42:09
  But in the end of the day it was just a Fraggle stack and it
• 42:12
  looked amazing. I will just say that I, you
• 42:16
  know, part of your job as a director on anything is to act
• 42:20
  like, you know, to be confident in your ideas.
• 42:23
  And, and I, I was a big proponent of the Fraggle stack.
• 42:26
  IDXI thought it was a fun idea. And, and then, you know, the
• 42:29
  night before, every, every night before or every day when we
• 42:32
  shoot the show the night before, we have what's called a
• 42:34
  walkthrough where we wrapped before we were shooting that
• 42:37
  day. And then the, the crew and the
• 42:40
  talent and the producers day afterwards and do a walkthrough
• 42:42
  where we kind of walk through what we're going to shoot
• 42:45
  sometimes two days before we usually one day before and, and
• 42:48
  talk about what it's going to be.
• 42:50
  And we got to the Fraggle sack and there was a lot of like, so
• 42:53
  Johnny, how, how was this going to work?
• 42:56
  And I was in my brain, I was like, no, it's me.
• 42:58
  OK, we're going to cut holes for the bottom Fraggle.
• 43:00
  So they're under something and inside of something stuff body
• 43:03
  the 2nd row, blah, blah, blah. And what I, what I give credit
• 43:06
  to. And I just, I'm so glad we get a
• 43:08
  moment to say this. Our crew in Calgary, it is the
• 43:13
  greatest crew I've ever worked with in my entire television
• 43:16
  career. I really mean that because they
• 43:18
  never once were like, you can't do that.
• 43:21
  It was like, here's how we'll do it, let's figure it out.
• 43:24
  So even on the day when we tried the frackle stack one way and it
• 43:28
  wasn't quite exactly what it was to be, you know, time is money,
• 43:32
  right? And like we have a certain
• 43:33
  amount of time to shoot these shows and going down for 1/2
• 43:36
  hour to figure something out is devastating.
• 43:38
  These guys were down for 20 minutes, maybe coming up with a
• 43:41
  new trust system and knew this and they jumped in.
• 43:43
  They did it and they were so willing.
• 43:45
  And it that's why the kind of point it looks so great is the
• 43:48
  effort that that they made, the puppeteers made, the wranglers
• 43:51
  made like, you know, and and I just stood there was like, thank
• 43:55
  you, Jesus for making my idea work because I wasn't 100% sure,
• 43:59
  but like, but, but you know, I couldn't let anyone know that in
• 44:03
  my brain. I was going to I'd say we could
• 44:05
  do something we can't do, but it really does.
• 44:07
  I'm really I'm also very happy with how it ended up.
• 44:11
  Fantastic. The storyteller is keeping time
• 44:14
  because they're trying to break a record.
• 44:16
  And she's like, hang on, let me put my hourglass glasses on.
• 44:19
  And she bends down, comes back up with glasses that look like
• 44:23
  like a horizontal hourglass that is neither functional as an
• 44:27
  hourglass or as glasses, which is hysterical.
• 44:30
  Sense. I love it.
• 44:31
  It makes no sense. At all.
• 44:32
  I love the Storyteller. Can we get a Storyteller episode
• 44:34
  in season three? Please believe me.
• 44:37
  Is that too much? Is that chaotic?
• 44:40
  No, that's that's like on my wish list too.
• 44:42
  And you know what's it's funny because I think that like
• 44:44
  pokeys, I report about Kanye, how we could depend on on Kanye
• 44:47
  to make anything work with poke. My God, if you need a funny line
• 44:51
  to call in Donna Campbell to do the story, you tell her because
• 44:54
  she just when she found that version of the character, I was
• 44:57
  like, I want that. I want her to like read me like
• 45:00
  like I want the storyteller to have like a series on the call
• 45:03
  map and just like read stories to make me because I think I'd
• 45:07
  be so entertained. I don't think I fall asleep, but
• 45:09
  I just, I love, I love that voice so much.
• 45:11
  Storyteller Podcast. It's right there.
• 45:13
  Writing for Donna is so fun, but Donna also ad libs incredibly
• 45:18
  so. Like you just let her talk and
• 45:20
  let her keep going on. Set which is.
• 45:23
  So fun to watch. So true.
• 45:26
  She's amazing. So yeah, so Wembley comes in as
• 45:30
  we discussed he he comes in with his new outfit, with the robe,
• 45:33
  the necklace, his hair's up in a ponytail, and the Fraggle stack
• 45:38
  falls because they're all a little surprised to see him.
• 45:41
  Red gets upset about it. Wembley totally misinterprets
• 45:45
  the situation, thinking that she's upset with him, and he
• 45:48
  runs off that poor little guy. Like doesn't your heart just
• 45:53
  break for him? Absolutely.
• 45:56
  And, you know, I have to say we're we're Jordan Lockhart talk
• 46:02
  about somebody who just is all heart and and you know, the the
• 46:07
  the level of care he put into this episode, like he cared so
• 46:12
  deeply about every moment of it and getting it right and telling
• 46:16
  the story and, and exploring the side of Wembley.
• 46:20
  And I just I just, you know, from a directing point of view,
• 46:23
  it was just a thrilling to see him find these things and to be
• 46:26
  willing to go there. And I think that this moment to
• 46:29
  me is to you're talking about is such a heartbreaking moment, You
• 46:33
  know, when he when he thinks that he's being judged for
• 46:36
  something like that and the way he touches his little head and
• 46:39
  it's like, Oh my gosh, it's just, it's beautiful, so
• 46:41
  beautiful. Absolutely.
• 46:45
  Gobo enters with his latest postcard from Traveling Mats.
• 46:48
  The storyteller is very excited, she says.
• 46:51
  His words are poems. His mustache is a song.
• 46:55
  Yep, Charlie, tell them. Is she wrong?
• 46:59
  Is she wrong? She's not wrong.
• 47:03
  And again, like it this I God, I love the storyteller.
• 47:06
  Like I couldn't tell if that was one of those, like was it in the
• 47:09
  scripts or was that Donna being Donna?
• 47:12
  And that's a testament to both of you.
• 47:16
  I don't know. I never wanted to be that
• 47:18
  writer. Just like, oh, that was, that's
• 47:20
  one of mine. I have.
• 47:21
  I have no idea. It was.
• 47:22
  It was in the script. I remember in the script and I
• 47:25
  thought it was a genius line. Charlie Well, you're taking
• 47:28
  credit for it either way. Or we're giving you credit.
• 47:29
  We're thrusting credit upon you. So traveling mat has a hole in
• 47:34
  his boot. So he says, well, he knew
• 47:37
  exactly where to go. Not the shoe store.
• 47:39
  He went to a toy store. The aisles are separated between
• 47:43
  stereotypically boys toys and girl toys.
• 47:45
  So he rearranges the shelves and he chooses a pair of pink
• 47:49
  glitter shoes for himself and males his old boots back to
• 47:53
  Fraggle Rock. And they smell like old boots.
• 48:00
  Exactly. Gobo takes him to another cave,
• 48:02
  far, far away from everyone else, but he'll be gone long
• 48:06
  enough for the Fraggles to justify throwing him a welcome
• 48:09
  home party. And I love that.
• 48:11
  The Fraggles are like, oh, what a great opportunity for a party.
• 48:14
  Like they like, as if they knew a real opportunity.
• 48:16
  Like they could have just thrown a party, but it's like, oh, it's
• 48:18
  a reason for a party. Any reason?
• 48:23
  I'd like to think and certainly in our, our, our room, I think
• 48:26
  we see that Fraggles is like always kind of having parties,
• 48:29
  yeah. Exactly, he was.
• 48:31
  Celebrating, which I think everyone out there should find
• 48:34
  that in their lives somehow. You deserve your little
• 48:37
  celebrations for the silliest quote UN quote inconsequential
• 48:41
  things like missing a friend for maybe 15 minutes.
• 48:45
  Yeah, throw a party. Why not?
• 48:48
  Now I want to go to a party. That sounds like fun.
• 48:50
  All right? Maybe we'll have a we'll have a
• 48:52
  finishing this podcast party at the end.
• 48:55
  There you go. With the five of us, Wembley has
• 48:58
  changed out of his clothes, but his hair will not go back to
• 49:01
  normal. Turns out he didn't use Moki's
• 49:03
  hair goo, he used Lanford's pot glue.
• 49:07
  To fix this broken part. Here's some behind the scenes.
• 49:11
  This was had to be cut for time, but we were sort of tracking
• 49:14
  Lanford having sort of a growth spurt.
• 49:17
  So Lanford was like eating, eating things all throughout the
• 49:20
  eating the hat, eating like decorations because we needed
• 49:23
  Lanford to like be bigger than the pot for episodes that were
• 49:26
  coming later. So this is like the beginning of
• 49:28
  that growth spurt. But it just we had to, we had to
• 49:30
  focus. Yeah.
• 49:31
  We cut a lot of that out. That's right, yeah.
• 49:32
  Had to be. We're missing out on a little
• 49:34
  bit of Lanford's season long story arc here.
• 49:40
  Slightly larger. The only thing that's it turns
• 49:46
  out the only thing that'll get the hair glue out, excuse me,
• 49:48
  the the glue glue out of Wembley's hair is water from
• 49:52
  Sweetwater Creek. So Wembley runs off so he could
• 49:56
  get it done before Gobo's party. Sweetwater Creek was a bit, I, I
• 50:02
  loved the idea of Sweetwater when I was a kid from the
• 50:05
  original series. I was like, that's just the way
• 50:07
  that they made it look with the pink and like, I was like, that
• 50:09
  looks so good. And like I was like wanting them
• 50:11
  to drink it so badly in that one episode in the classic series
• 50:14
  when they all lean forward and then Gobo was like, no, don't
• 50:16
  drink it. So it was just when we were in
• 50:18
  the room. I, I that's one moment.
• 50:20
  That's one moment. I was like Sweetwater, like
• 50:23
  psychotic about it. It's like we have to use
• 50:25
  Sweetwater because I was so excited about.
• 50:28
  What do you think? Sweetwater tastes like because
• 50:32
  it looks delicious. In I hope it's bitter.
• 50:34
  I hope it's it's. It's a nice subversion.
• 50:38
  Like coffee? Like blue coffee?
• 50:40
  Yeah. I thought it was like like
• 50:42
  strawberry or something. Like I feel like it it like like
• 50:45
  the Fraggle. I mean, I know that we brought
• 50:46
  strawberries into the season, but like, I feel like, like a
• 50:49
  sweet, yeah, like a Berry is yummy, sugary deliciousness.
• 50:53
  Oh, that sounds better. I I was just thinking like
• 50:56
  again, like just thinking of when I would watch the old
• 50:58
  episode, it's just like sugar water.
• 51:00
  And I would go, yeah, 'cause it's Sweetwater.
• 51:02
  And they would go. That sounds awful.
• 51:04
  Yeah, yeah, sugar in the water. Not if you're a loving.
• 51:07
  Bird. Well, that's true or not.
• 51:10
  So it still sounds awful. But like Lacroix, it sounds like
• 51:14
  they're drinking Lacroix, right? Yes.
• 51:16
  Yeah, OK. But the.
• 51:17
  But the but the good flavors. Yeah, exactly.
• 51:20
  Yes, it is. Yes.
• 51:23
  The bumble mousse. It is Junior Gorg's birthday.
• 51:27
  Happy birthday, Junior Gorg. I I I actually kind of wish that
• 51:32
  we were doing, like a whole episode just about Junior Gorg's
• 51:34
  birthday. I feel like it's a big deal.
• 51:35
  Like he's turning 500, a nice round Number, and he's still,
• 51:40
  he's still a little baby boy, by the way, because he's only 500
• 51:42
  years. Yeah.
• 51:44
  He has thousands of years to go. Exactly.
• 51:48
  So it turns out the 500th birthday for Gorgs is Boxing
• 51:51
  Day, which is also the name of a real holiday.
• 51:55
  Is that which was the beginning of that was the beginning of the
• 51:58
  conversation. Like Charlie was saying during
• 52:00
  the first season was like was like we needed a holiday.
• 52:03
  How funny would it be to take actual Boxing Day?
• 52:06
  But in the Thraggle Rock metaphor world, it's not that
• 52:09
  it's. Actually about boxes, yeah,
• 52:11
  yeah, totally the story. My favorite?
• 52:15
  Okay, there's a lot of things I love writing about this episode,
• 52:17
  but the Boxing Days, the history of the Boxing Day story, is
• 52:22
  maybe the most me joke I have ever been.
• 52:26
  So funny. It's.
• 52:30
  So stupid. It's because it's like, so like,
• 52:32
  like, so here's a story about two Gorgs.
• 52:34
  They're like, I don't know, there's a box.
• 52:35
  Hey, why don't you get in it? And now that we have a halt.
• 52:38
  Pant. I love it, everyone shouted.
• 52:41
  Yay. Which is also how this episode
• 52:46
  kind of ends. Yeah, well, at least with Pogy
• 52:48
  shouting yay, we'll get to that. We'll get to that.
• 52:51
  That's the. Foreshadowing.
• 52:52
  I meant to put in, yeah. Not deliberate no, I I
• 52:57
  completely agree. I think I think that the the
• 52:59
  story of being something that's so mundane and so dumb being
• 53:06
  like this like obviously this holiday has been around for
• 53:09
  probably thousands of years because it's when everyone turns
• 53:12
  500. So for it to be based in they,
• 53:16
  they found two boxes in the woods and they.
• 53:18
  Bet. And I also love that you can't
• 53:20
  get in the image of Ma and PA just standing in those boxes.
• 53:24
  Like it's so stupid. It's just like it's hilarious
• 53:27
  and they've saved them like 500 years later.
• 53:29
  Like it's just it's it's so wonderfully ridiculous.
• 53:31
  I love it. It is.
• 53:33
  And never on our team created the the banners that like the
• 53:36
  tapestry is where the story is just Oh my God, it's so fun to
• 53:39
  write for this team because you know they're going to make
• 53:41
  something incredible like a dock bot when you thought it was only
• 53:44
  going to be a broom on a broom. But like, I love our teams.
• 53:47
  And by the way, those, those, those, what do you call them?
• 53:50
  Like, not flags, I guess those banners.
• 53:52
  They were, they were embroidered.
• 53:54
  I mean, they were, they were, they were so detailed and
• 53:56
  beautiful. Like they, they, they spent so
• 53:59
  much time making those. Yeah.
• 54:00
  And for what's essentially like 15 seconds on screen too, which
• 54:04
  is. That's a.
• 54:06
  Lot. That's the set.
• 54:07
  That's the set up at the Rock is everything.
• 54:09
  Is it it? They take that much time, They
• 54:11
  really do. I love it.
• 54:13
  So part of this tradition, Junior has to choose a box to
• 54:18
  get into. There's a short, wide one, and
• 54:21
  there's a tall, thin one. And boy, Junior just does not
• 54:25
  fit into either box. But there's only two choices.
• 54:31
  We'll skip to the end of the storyline just just so we're not
• 54:33
  going back and forth. But like, in the end, he can't
• 54:35
  decide. He ends up knocking down the
• 54:37
  boxes and dancing on their corpses.
• 54:41
  And Pennsylvania is disappointed.
• 54:43
  But Ma says, Oh, you just have to accept your son no matter
• 54:47
  what. And then she says you dance
• 54:50
  outside that box, son. Now, I'm going to be honest with
• 54:55
  you. I I do a lot of praise of this
• 54:57
  show. I do a lot of praise on the
• 54:58
  show, which is why I feel comfortable telling you this.
• 55:01
  But this was the one part in the series where as fun and funny as
• 55:05
  I do, I genuinely do think that the stuff that we were just
• 55:07
  talking about it. I really do think that like if
• 55:09
  for for the for the gourds to be into something that's so dumb.
• 55:12
  I love that, but there's so many metaphors throughout this
• 55:17
  episode that are genuinely very important.
• 55:19
  And I felt this one was just a little bit on the nose.
• 55:22
  It was a little like we're talking about being outside the
• 55:24
  box. We're talking about do you fit
• 55:26
  into a box and there's a literal box.
• 55:28
  And I felt like for what Wembley is going through especially and
• 55:34
  Pogie, you know, like Pogies truth that we'll learn about in
• 55:37
  a little bit. It felt like it.
• 55:40
  It was cheap in comparison. And now, now here's what I want
• 55:44
  to ask you. I know this is just me shouting.
• 55:46
  My well, it's been great everyone.
• 55:47
  Thanks so much. I'm sorry.
• 55:49
  I'm sorry. No, no.
• 55:51
  You are so entitled to this. But I'll let you continue and
• 55:53
  then I, I, I will, yes. So, so my question though is,
• 55:57
  is, was that a deliberate move? Was that something where like we
• 56:00
  literally just want to spell this out for you so that we can
• 56:03
  have our, our deeper metaphor over here?
• 56:05
  Because we're literally talking about like, you know, knocking
• 56:08
  down boxes in this B plot. So 3 sort of reasons.
• 56:14
  First, I already got into is that this was not supposed to be
• 56:18
  in this episode. So if it's the only time you are
• 56:21
  talking about this, then it's a good time to be so, so crystal
• 56:25
  clear now that it's embedded with all these other more, I
• 56:29
  mean arguably more subtle talks about identity and expression.
• 56:33
  Yeah, it is. It is more glaring.
• 56:35
  The second thing I would say is that we are always sort of
• 56:39
  writing towards everyone in the audience.
• 56:42
  So the youngest among us needs to be following along.
• 56:46
  So it's sort of like a backstop of like, just in case this isn't
• 56:50
  clear, we just want to make it like really on the nose.
• 56:53
  And the last thing is, is the the biggest and most important
• 56:56
  point of all from Jocelyn Stevenson herself is it's just
• 57:00
  stupid. It's so stupid and it makes us
• 57:04
  laugh. And you are absolutely not wrong
• 57:06
  to criticize us for it. It is dumb and I will back those
• 57:11
  boxes with my whole body. Well, I'll just support.
• 57:16
  I'll just support one thing that Charlie said, which is, you
• 57:18
  know, and I, because I, I, I tough pigs friends, I, I see
• 57:23
  stuff, I read stuff because I love you guys.
• 57:25
  I'm one of you. And I've seen some of the
• 57:27
  comments about, you know, sometimes that this, this
• 57:30
  version of Fraggle Rock is a little bit more direct and not,
• 57:33
  as you know, abstract, metaphorical as the original.
• 57:36
  But you know, we, that's a product of the time we live in.
• 57:39
  You know, we don't, you know, when Fraggle Rock, the original
• 57:41
  series came out, there wasn't the demographic breakdown that
• 57:45
  there is today of who's watching what, what age group is
• 57:47
  watching. There wasn't, you know, was not
• 57:49
  deemed a quote, UN quote kids show the way that, you know, now
• 57:53
  shows get divided into that. And even though clearly, I mean,
• 57:57
  you know, I don't think it's a secret.
• 57:58
  We make so much of the show for fans and for people who grow up
• 58:01
  with it. And it is very much driven to to
• 58:04
  those of you listening right now, for sure.
• 58:06
  I mean that that's that's what I am.
• 58:08
  That's what everyone is calling. We're all fans.
• 58:09
  We all, we all love it. You know, like Charlie said, we
• 58:13
  have a very young audience that's watching the show.
• 58:15
  We have a great responsibility to them and to make sure that
• 58:18
  that, that what we are making, which is ultimately for them is,
• 58:23
  you know, is that the lessons are coming through.
• 58:25
  And and, you know, the way the kids absorb information today is
• 58:29
  so different, you know, than it was in 1983.
• 58:32
  I mean, really. And I know that goes not saying
• 58:34
  and everyone goes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 58:35
  But it's true. It's like, you know, the, the,
• 58:37
  the, the pace and the lessons. I mean, you know, if, if this
• 58:41
  lesson was on its nose, then my goodness, there's other kids
• 58:45
  shows where they're just like spooning it down your throat.
• 58:48
  So I but, you know, I say that not, not, not a defensive way.
• 58:52
  I agree with you. I think I'm just saying that
• 58:54
  there's a there's a part of us that have to be we have to
• 58:58
  remember that that five year old kid that's watching doesn't have
• 59:01
  the ability yet to absorb a metaphor the way that that we do
• 59:05
  as adults. And and that this lesson is so
• 59:07
  timely and so important that I think we were really passionate
• 59:11
  that, you know, that a kid like Charlie was saying, could really
• 59:14
  understand that message, you know, and and so so I will just
• 59:19
  that that's my only push back. But I will say that I totally
• 59:22
  agree with you. At the same time, it is the most
• 59:23
  of those part of the of the of the episode.
• 59:26
  So, well, here's the here's the real question.
• 59:28
  Why are you making a show for kids?
• 59:29
  Just make a show for me. Just entertain me like you're
• 59:34
  putting. In the tough and tough pigs.
• 59:36
  And for that, we salute you. There you go Joe Secretly, every
• 59:41
  episode of the season was made for you, Joe.
• 59:43
  I didn't want to tell you till late.
• 59:44
  I knew it. I knew it.
• 59:47
  Back to the Rock before Joe had us.
• 59:49
  We make you icy go that was not based off of like anyone but
• 59:54
  you. OK, now I'm calling shenanigans.
• 1:00:00
  I am not that tall. That's why I know I'm not icy.
• 1:00:05
  So thank you for for letting me. That was it was terrifying for
• 1:00:08
  me, by the way, to tell you no, it was something that I didn't
• 1:00:11
  blah blah blah blah blah blah. Because it's so I know she's
• 1:00:14
  always welcome. Thank you.
• 1:00:18
  The Fraggles are preparing for Gobo's big party.
• 1:00:22
  Boobers. Bacon, strawberry pies, fruit
• 1:00:24
  pies. Madness.
• 1:00:27
  What a great delivery that is. I love it.
• 1:00:30
  Red is telling everyone to pick a side, sit on this side of the
• 1:00:34
  of the hall to say go sit on this side to say bow.
• 1:00:37
  And everyone's having trouble choosing a side, including Pogie
• 1:00:41
  who runs off. We're going to catch up with
• 1:00:43
  them in just a second, but first we get our first song of the
• 1:00:47
  episode. It is who is.
• 1:00:49
  Me Oh, wait, sorry, can I just say something really quickly on
• 1:00:51
  that moment, something that eats my heart as a director because I
• 1:00:55
  hated having to cut it was we had this other great runner.
• 1:00:58
  That kind of makes sense if you I mean it doesn't bother me
• 1:01:01
  watching, but I'm like, Oh, you're this great runner of
• 1:01:03
  wrench and turbo with the confetti cannon that they were
• 1:01:06
  like completely getting it confused about how to do this
• 1:01:09
  and like where it should go and driving red crazy because they
• 1:01:12
  had they said one job, which is to provide the friggin confetti
• 1:01:15
  cannon and they kept getting it wrong.
• 1:01:17
  And so there was a whole moment after pokey leaves that got cut
• 1:01:20
  with with wrench and turbo. That's why they're there and why
• 1:01:23
  later when they set it off, it kind of makes more sense.
• 1:01:26
  But anyway, I don't think it bothers anybody but me because I
• 1:01:28
  know it was there. But it every time I watch that
• 1:01:31
  scene, I'm like. I was wondering that because
• 1:01:34
  you're right. I noticed that there was
• 1:01:35
  something about like the timing, the confetti, excuse me, the
• 1:01:38
  timing of the confetti cannon. And then at the very end of the
• 1:01:42
  episode, they're doing their American Beauty, you know,
• 1:01:45
  making snow angels in the confetti, which is great.
• 1:01:49
  A great. Such a great shot.
• 1:01:51
  Yeah. I could tell that there was more
• 1:01:52
  to it, but I thought it was just, yeah, they're just having
• 1:01:54
  fun with, with Doozers, the. Product is the least.
• 1:01:56
  Amount of doozers in any of our episodes, which is.
• 1:01:59
  Also. We always want to service every
• 1:02:01
  single part of it because that's that's how we're going to stop
• 1:02:03
  wars. Everyone has their place and
• 1:02:06
  part to play in the world, but this is the one episode we
• 1:02:09
  really couldn't find other ways. To and Turbo and Wrench were so
• 1:02:12
  confident. That's what made us of finding
• 1:02:13
  their life. We've got this like these two
• 1:02:15
  dummies, like I have no idea what they're doing.
• 1:02:18
  It's so great. Anyway, someday it'll see the
• 1:02:20
  light of it. We'll we'll, we'll put on
• 1:02:22
  YouTube or something. Great.
• 1:02:25
  So yeah, we get our song. Who is me?
• 1:02:26
  This is an original song for this episode.
• 1:02:28
  This song is a bop. Like this is a.
• 1:02:30
  Really good song. Like they're all good songs.
• 1:02:33
  I really like this song. I listened to it twice today,
• 1:02:35
  just to what I was preparing here.
• 1:02:37
  The songs this season are incredible.
• 1:02:39
  I love this season soundtrack. Harvey Mason Junior, Andrew Hay
• 1:02:43
  and Sam Ramirez are geniuses and and the nicest thing someone
• 1:02:48
  said on the set, actually it might have been Jordan or or
• 1:02:52
  might have been Amanda. I remember someone someone said
• 1:02:56
  that they were like, is this from the original series?
• 1:02:58
  Because it really couldn't be if it's not.
• 1:03:00
  And I thought that was the best comment you could ever give, was
• 1:03:02
  like, you know. I did think that at first
• 1:03:04
  because I couldn't remember when I restarted the episode today in
• 1:03:07
  preparation for this podcast. And you know, I knew there was
• 1:03:09
  going to be 1 original song and one classic song and I couldn't
• 1:03:11
  remember what it what it was off the top of my head.
• 1:03:14
  And the song started. I'm like, oh, here it is.
• 1:03:16
  And then after a few seconds. It's a great, great song.
• 1:03:20
  Yeah, I love it. Can I jump?
• 1:03:24
  Can I just jump in? And I have to say this.
• 1:03:26
  And this is just that as as a performer who's who was on set
• 1:03:30
  watching Jordan Lockhart perform all the, all the intricate
• 1:03:37
  emotional puppeteering and nuances in his performance, as
• 1:03:43
  well as hitting Marks and choreography.
• 1:03:48
  And, you know, people who are a fan or who are fans of just pure
• 1:03:54
  amazing puppetry, technical puppetry.
• 1:03:57
  But it's not just top technical puppetry, but it is something
• 1:04:00
  that I replay in, you know, in my memory over and over again.
• 1:04:05
  I can't say enough about Jordan. I, I mean, I love Jordan to
• 1:04:09
  pieces, but if you watch him, I, I think you'd be hard pressed to
• 1:04:15
  find any, any puppet performance as filled with heart and, and
• 1:04:23
  just pure skill and talent as that song.
• 1:04:28
  You really break it down. I challenge you to pause any
• 1:04:30
  moment. It's, it's, it's a, it's a
• 1:04:32
  masterpiece. Yeah, I agree.
• 1:04:34
  You're here. Totally agree.
• 1:04:37
  You had a good team there over a Fraggle Rock.
• 1:04:41
  All of you guys, you're all, you're all so good.
• 1:04:43
  I honestly like you, just you just really stacked to this
• 1:04:47
  cast. We're so lucky, we're so lucky.
• 1:04:52
  We're so lucky. So Wembley is singing.
• 1:04:56
  The song is basically having an existential crisis during the
• 1:04:59
  song. But what's also cool is he's
• 1:05:04
  kind of surrounded by all these other Fraggle rock creatures who
• 1:05:07
  are singing along with them. There's Rumble Bugs and Diggits
• 1:05:11
  and double bubbies and Lil Raggo is.
• 1:05:15
  There. Lil Raggo.
• 1:05:19
  We love Lil Raggo. So there's a couple that the
• 1:05:22
  Muppet Wiki doesn't have names for.
• 1:05:23
  And it seems like from what we're seeing on social media
• 1:05:27
  that you all, you have names for everybody.
• 1:05:29
  We just haven't, we haven't gotten them on the wiki yet.
• 1:05:31
  We haven't figured out what they are yet.
• 1:05:33
  There's like a like a blue worm looking guy.
• 1:05:36
  He's got like a like a curly tail or like a ribs tail.
• 1:05:39
  Do you know what I'm talking? About yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:40
  I know exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:42
  Does he have a name? You know what some of those
• 1:05:45
  names are, some of them are just what the puppet builders name
• 1:05:48
  them because they they just probably needed to give them
• 1:05:51
  some name for cataloging reasons.
• 1:05:53
  And other are just like on set, you know, Jurgen or Scotty, one
• 1:05:56
  of our wonderful puppet wranglers was like, I don't
• 1:05:59
  know, he's called the blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:06:02
  And other are assigned. So I, I actually don't know a
• 1:06:05
  few of them, but yeah, so, but they all have something, they're
• 1:06:08
  all called them something. That's what I want to know.
• 1:06:10
  There's also these two. They're they're obviously
• 1:06:13
  fraggle size, but they they look kind of like furry doozers.
• 1:06:17
  They're like round green little mustaches.
• 1:06:20
  The wiki let's like real names for them, marshy and bog, but
• 1:06:25
  not like a species name. It it seems like you you you
• 1:06:29
  have no idea what they might be called.
• 1:06:31
  I don't remember you. I do remember you're right.
• 1:06:33
  I do remember that they were they were they were both
• 1:06:35
  individual series and the that, but I don't remember their their
• 1:06:39
  their their species name. But you know what we're?
• 1:06:41
  Going to get to the bottom of this I'm.
• 1:06:43
  Going to find I'm going to find out for you.
• 1:06:44
  All these, I'm fascinated by this stuff.
• 1:06:47
  Like there's so much culture to the background of Fraggle Rock
• 1:06:51
  and the fact. That for all these years, we
• 1:06:52
  still don't. Know yeah and yeah and you guys
• 1:06:55
  are are building cannon if you're just like it like you
• 1:06:59
  know haphazardly naming the skunkies that's Canon now it's
• 1:07:04
  going on the wiki we've inked it in.
• 1:07:06
  I love that we have to add to the great, you know,
• 1:07:09
  encyclopedia. Frankly, we have to keep adding
• 1:07:11
  all this information. Exactly.
• 1:07:13
  Yeah, Wembley finds Sweetwater Creek, gets his hair back the
• 1:07:18
  way it was, and what else does he find there?
• 1:07:21
  It's bogey. You're back, Konya.
• 1:07:25
  Yeah, And, and I, I just, I, I remember Johnny alluded to this
• 1:07:29
  before or stated this before, just about how much heart Jordan
• 1:07:34
  put into preparing for for this episode.
• 1:07:38
  And I remember like more than I've ever run lines before.
• 1:07:46
  Jordan is like, come over to my trailer.
• 1:07:48
  We're going to run, we're going to run the scene.
• 1:07:49
  So the number of times that we ran that scene together or this
• 1:07:54
  this scene we're about to talk about, it is just it was too
• 1:07:59
  numerous to to count. We, we've really figured out the
• 1:08:02
  nuance behind it. And I think one of the things
• 1:08:04
  that, you know, some people do do or do not realize is that
• 1:08:09
  Jordan and I knew each other years and years ago.
• 1:08:11
  And so, you know, there was a point, there was a point in our
• 1:08:15
  careers where Jordan was coming into puppetry and I was thinking
• 1:08:17
  of leaving puppetry. And we had a little, we had a
• 1:08:20
  little meeting because Larry Merkin said, I want you two guys
• 1:08:25
  to meet each other. I think you guys would get
• 1:08:27
  along. And we actually had this, this
• 1:08:29
  meeting outside, we talked about all the time, there's a fountain
• 1:08:32
  down in a part of Toronto called the Saint Lawrence Market.
• 1:08:35
  And this, we sat in this, this fountain, I was just talking
• 1:08:38
  about me thinking I might want to leave puppetry and him
• 1:08:41
  saying, I want you to stick around and him coming, him
• 1:08:44
  coming into the, the business. And, and so we really, we really
• 1:08:49
  leaned into that. So we had this, you know, this,
• 1:08:51
  this friendship, this bond that you started at that moment.
• 1:08:55
  And, and we just, we really put every, every bit of that into
• 1:08:59
  that, into that scene. And and talk about a full circle
• 1:09:02
  of moments that you had that conversation at a fountain and
• 1:09:06
  here you are sharing this really beautiful scene at a fountain.
• 1:09:10
  Yep, Yep, absolutely right. I don't.
• 1:09:12
  Know if that means anything, but it's it's a true fact that is.
• 1:09:16
  So. I feel like hearing this.
• 1:09:18
  Story. And it's just so moving.
• 1:09:21
  I mean, the both of you put so much of yourselves into this
• 1:09:25
  episode. Kanye, you and I had our
• 1:09:27
  separate talk about it and the way the, the we wanted to get it
• 1:09:31
  right and the, the passion behind it.
• 1:09:33
  I, I love working with actors and performers, but just I've
• 1:09:37
  never seen such and sincerity and and and skill and I, I just
• 1:09:46
  watching you both on set was so moving and we're getting to the
• 1:09:49
  most moving moment of all when you guys hold hands, but it just
• 1:09:52
  was a delight. It's I I I'm saying shows it
• 1:09:58
  shows in the in the episode. Like I think that's part of why
• 1:10:02
  this episode, it's a huge part of why this episode has hit the
• 1:10:05
  way it has is the both of you and knowing that it's wow, I'm
• 1:10:09
  I'm so moved. Well, you know, thank you,
• 1:10:13
  Charlie. And, and, you know, something
• 1:10:14
  that people should know is that, yeah, I had a chance to talk to
• 1:10:17
  Charlie about this episode and really get their perspective on
• 1:10:21
  why they why they chose Pogey specifically.
• 1:10:24
  I think I I had said, you know, like as a writer, you can like,
• 1:10:28
  you really are creating like a story out of thin air.
• 1:10:31
  So you could do anything. You could create a new
• 1:10:34
  character, like the great Glitterin, you could do all
• 1:10:36
  these things. And and, you know, they were
• 1:10:38
  just really adamant that, you know, Pogey was the right
• 1:10:42
  character. So, you know, they had seen this
• 1:10:45
  in their own mind before and they realized that this was the
• 1:10:48
  right thing. And and just having that that
• 1:10:52
  conversation with you, Charlie really meant the world to me.
• 1:10:54
  And I I do thank you for that. And and Charlie was also on set.
• 1:10:58
  And so, you know, as a performer, when you know I'm I'm
• 1:11:01
  in the moment, you don't don't get me wrong, but what to look
• 1:11:03
  up and then you know, you see Johnny they're directing and you
• 1:11:07
  see Charlie there beside. Just crying.
• 1:11:11
  Right. Like just, yeah, but, but it's,
• 1:11:14
  it's, you know, as a, as a performer, there's it, it's it,
• 1:11:19
  there's a different kind of, I want to use the word playground,
• 1:11:21
  but there's a different type of playground that's created when
• 1:11:24
  you have truly supportive people there for you.
• 1:11:28
  And, and you don't have to, you don't have to perform.
• 1:11:32
  I mean, I, I, I didn't have to perform.
• 1:11:34
  I just was, and I, and I remember like I had my scripts
• 1:11:38
  up, but I didn't look at my scripts.
• 1:11:39
  I, I didn't look at my scripts. I, I, for me it was, it was more
• 1:11:43
  important to really get the, the emotion of the tone of, of this
• 1:11:48
  moment and, and, and, and Johnny, really you helped me
• 1:11:52
  really understand that, you know, Pokey is Pokey is very
• 1:11:56
  confident. You know, like I, I like Pokey
• 1:11:58
  really is OK with how, with how they are and is just taking
• 1:12:04
  Wembley on a, on a bit of a, a tour of, of their perspective.
• 1:12:08
  It's, it's how they see the world.
• 1:12:10
  And so, yeah, it was a very special, a very special moment
• 1:12:13
  for a lot of different reasons. It it really was like these
• 1:12:16
  three individuals around me and that just made me feel so, so,
• 1:12:23
  so safe to perform. I really love this next moment
• 1:12:30
  in this scene where Pokey kind of explains like, you know, I
• 1:12:36
  had to decide being a go or a Bo and I'm kind of neither.
• 1:12:40
  I'm so maybe I'm in between. And Wembley says, oh, like,
• 1:12:44
  you're a Wembler Like me like that, like Wembley's like
• 1:12:47
  recognizes this. But then Pokey immediately is
• 1:12:50
  like, I'm not a wembler. I know exactly who I am.
• 1:12:54
  I'm Pokey, you know, like I've been telling you all this whole
• 1:12:56
  time about bogey and I love that they both have come to this very
• 1:13:01
  similar conclusion. Or at least, you know, Wembley
• 1:13:04
  is at least asking himself certain important questions.
• 1:13:07
  And they're both coming at it, you know, to to the same
• 1:13:10
  destination, but for two completely different reasons.
• 1:13:13
  And the keeps to both of their characters at their roots in
• 1:13:17
  such a an honest way. You like it in a way that as
• 1:13:21
  we're we were just talking about with Pogey, that it's not a
• 1:13:25
  deviation from who we've set Pogia up to be to this point.
• 1:13:30
  Just like Wembley. It makes so much sense because
• 1:13:32
  Wembley is the person who's asking questions and Wembley is
• 1:13:35
  the one who, you know, it comes across as I can't make a
• 1:13:39
  decision. But really it's just being able
• 1:13:42
  to see lots of different options and kind of being having that
• 1:13:46
  kind of decision paralysis. And I love that.
• 1:13:50
  I think that's beautiful. I think that really says a lot
• 1:13:52
  about, you know, people in the LGBT community that there is not
• 1:13:56
  one path. There's not one way to be or one
• 1:13:59
  way to one place to come from to get there.
• 1:14:03
  Some people know quite early and some people know I'm not going
• 1:14:06
  to even stay late. Some people know later in their
• 1:14:08
  lives. And I, I was, it was really
• 1:14:11
  important to us for Wembley is the right character to tell this
• 1:14:14
  story. But I think we really wanted it
• 1:14:17
  to be clear like Wembley is, is the sort of who is really
• 1:14:21
  deciding and is unsure. And is that person in all of us,
• 1:14:28
  the, the fraggle in all of us who I it's, it's, it's hard for
• 1:14:32
  them. Everything is so uncertain.
• 1:14:36
  And I, I really slept very much. But then there are those amongst
• 1:14:40
  us who are it's just, it's so clear.
• 1:14:43
  And I think a lot of people see non binary in particular as
• 1:14:49
  something that is like, Oh, you're just confused.
• 1:14:52
  And so I think it was really, really like, no, Pogy's Pogy's
• 1:14:55
  not confused. Pogy knows himself and maybe
• 1:14:57
  there is a journey to get there. I I, of course, really, you
• 1:15:00
  know, love the line that like, it took Pogy a long, long time
• 1:15:03
  to get their names, so maybe there was some exploration
• 1:15:07
  before Pokey got their names so that they're so confident now.
• 1:15:09
  But it yeah, it was just important to to show that they
• 1:15:13
  they know themselves in a way that you can't really poke holes
• 1:15:17
  in. So Hoagie says that they're
• 1:15:22
  going to take Wembley to see the great Glitterini.
• 1:15:27
  Glitterini. Is this like purple furry
• 1:15:30
  creature? So OK, I'm going to tell you
• 1:15:33
  when I first saw the glitterini, before I knew anything about
• 1:15:37
  anything and I saw this character design, I'm not going
• 1:15:41
  to lie, my gut reaction was that's it.
• 1:15:44
  Like we kind of like, it's just like this featureless.
• 1:15:47
  You're cheer like, yeah, you're you're Charlie.
• 1:15:50
  You're you're like cheering you that.
• 1:15:51
  Seems like that was your intention.
• 1:15:53
  That's exactly what we were hoping for.
• 1:15:55
  Like the head, like his head looks like a muppaphone.
• 1:15:58
  It's just eyes, fur circle, that's it.
• 1:16:02
  And then as we will learn in a moment, like he can pop up here
• 1:16:07
  and there and he can put on costumes and his eyes can turn
• 1:16:11
  upside down, get all these different fun hairstyles.
• 1:16:13
  His arm extends, his belly glows with light.
• 1:16:17
  Tell me a little bit about all the decisions that went into
• 1:16:20
  everything. I just word vomited.
• 1:16:25
  I mean, you definitely hit the nail on the head in the sense
• 1:16:26
  that, you know, we, you purposely want the great
• 1:16:29
  Glitterini when you first see him to be a little bit like,
• 1:16:33
  like, oh, and it's just Wembley's perception of him, you
• 1:16:38
  know, and then we learn that, you know, it's how the
• 1:16:41
  Glitterini feels and sees himself and that's how he
• 1:16:45
  presents to the world. So we wanted, you know, it's
• 1:16:47
  actually a fun fact. It was actually originally
• 1:16:49
  called the Glitter Glob, wasn't it Charlie?
• 1:16:52
  Yep, glitter glob and his glitter globe.
• 1:16:55
  Glitter glob and the glitter globe.
• 1:16:56
  And it was going to be, you know, this kind of glob of like,
• 1:16:59
  you know, shape shifting rock that keep changing.
• 1:17:02
  And then, you know, we, the more we talked about it, we thought
• 1:17:04
  maybe it's not the best way to go to call him the glob, but you
• 1:17:08
  know, that we can make this character more fantastic, you
• 1:17:11
  know, and even if their name is fantastic and you know, their
• 1:17:15
  their presentation isn't at first, that's kind of part of
• 1:17:18
  the fun of it, you know what I mean?
• 1:17:19
  So that was that was that was the main reason why.
• 1:17:22
  And then, you know, we just started getting excited about
• 1:17:24
  the fact that he could represent all these different parts of of
• 1:17:29
  how he feels. And so, you know, we had a
• 1:17:31
  really great time talking about, oh, what if his head could
• 1:17:35
  extended, his arms could extended?
• 1:17:36
  What if his belly lit up when when he's really excited?
• 1:17:38
  What if he could change different outfits instantly and
• 1:17:41
  become different voices, different characters.
• 1:17:43
  And I have to say Adam Lambert, you know, who did such a
• 1:17:45
  phenomenal job voicing the character, jumped so far into he
• 1:17:50
  was so excited to he's like, oh, like a sub of an accent for this
• 1:17:53
  moment. I was like, yes, you know, and
• 1:17:54
  like like he and and like the chef, he was like, oh, maybe
• 1:17:57
  he's a little fancier. I was like, go for it.
• 1:17:59
  Or when the eyes leaves, like he did that, like, you know, or
• 1:18:02
  bust something else like that, like great, like Edwin voice,
• 1:18:05
  like, you know, it was really just a sense to say that this
• 1:18:08
  character can be what, who and whoever and whatever they see
• 1:18:11
  themselves as, And that message was just so important for
• 1:18:14
  Wembley to see. But yes, the fact that you
• 1:18:16
  thought that he was a little bit like, you know, not that
• 1:18:20
  impressive is exactly how we wanted to appear at first.
• 1:18:24
  Great, I'm so glad I didn't insult the episode by accident
• 1:18:27
  again. Wembley had the line right
• 1:18:30
  there. Wembley was like, I thought
• 1:18:31
  you'd be more glitter or something along those lines.
• 1:18:34
  And it was sure, yeah. And again, this is this is
• 1:18:39
  supposed to be about a lot of different identities, but this
• 1:18:43
  is the sort of thing where I pull from very personal things.
• 1:18:48
  And sometimes this, the beautiful paradox of being a
• 1:18:50
  writer, sometimes when you go very personal, it somehow gets
• 1:18:53
  very universal in general and identifiable to people in their
• 1:18:57
  own ways. But for this, you're looking at
• 1:19:01
  me on camera. The people aren't at home.
• 1:19:03
  But if you were to Google me, don't Google me.
• 1:19:05
  But if you were to Google me, I, I look rather feminine.
• 1:19:08
  So if you look at me, most people who see me see me as a, a
• 1:19:12
  very feminine figure. I mostly get misgender because
• 1:19:15
  of it. So I, I think a lot of people
• 1:19:17
  who are binary trans, there's this idea of passing that they
• 1:19:21
  really, you know, they want to present how they feel.
• 1:19:24
  They want to, regardless of they feel they know that they are a
• 1:19:28
  woman or know that they are a man.
• 1:19:30
  There's this sense of like, oh, why do I want to give this to
• 1:19:33
  the observer to tell me who I am?
• 1:19:35
  I'm a woman, I'm a man or I am non binary, whoever you
• 1:19:39
  identify. So I it was definitely
• 1:19:43
  deliberate to make it first be like, oh, well, I don't see what
• 1:19:46
  you see. And to turn it around on the
• 1:19:49
  viewer to be like, well, it doesn't matter what you see,
• 1:19:53
  because I know who I am. And that's, yeah, that's sort of
• 1:19:58
  made the incredible creature that is Glitterini.
• 1:20:01
  And yeah, Adam Lambert just did a wonderful, draggy, phenomenal
• 1:20:05
  performance. Has.
• 1:20:07
  I mean, he had so much fun doing it, so much fun it was.
• 1:20:10
  It was a blast. That's awesome.
• 1:20:12
  You love to hear that too. With the celebrities who come in
• 1:20:14
  and work with you guys, that's they're not just like do coming
• 1:20:17
  in and doing a job. It's like they really get into
• 1:20:20
  it. They really get into the.
• 1:20:21
  Character so yeah, everybody, everybody we were so lucky, you
• 1:20:25
  know to to have this especially this season.
• 1:20:28
  I mean last season too, it was amazing.
• 1:20:30
  But this season with the challenges we gave the
• 1:20:32
  celebrities with some of these characters and the and the the
• 1:20:34
  way to be kind of broke even more for them to do probably
• 1:20:37
  than last season. They just everyone jumped in
• 1:20:40
  with both feet and and I think, you know, Adam, we were so
• 1:20:44
  excited to get first of all, because we knew he would sing
• 1:20:46
  that song so beautifully, which of course he does, but also just
• 1:20:49
  because he is a theater kid at heart.
• 1:20:52
  And so we knew that he would understand the kind of theatrics
• 1:20:54
  of the glitterini. But but also, you know, he is
• 1:20:57
  that he is the like he lives, he lives this wonderful, you know,
• 1:21:03
  glam rock world of, you know, living it, you know, being
• 1:21:07
  nonspecific and gender identity and things like that on stage.
• 1:21:10
  It just, I don't know, it just he felt like the right person to
• 1:21:13
  have that kind of confidence for this character for sure.
• 1:21:20
  Glitterini takes Wembley and pogey into the glitter globe.
• 1:21:25
  Not the glitter glob, but the glitter globe.
• 1:21:28
  You see, he was the glitter glob and the glitter glob, it was, it
• 1:21:32
  was, it was it was the right thing to die it.
• 1:21:37
  Had to die. Once again, like this is, I
• 1:21:40
  mean, this should not be a surprise to me, but every time
• 1:21:44
  we enter a new location in Fragile Rock, it's absolutely
• 1:21:47
  beautiful. Obviously it's very glittery,
• 1:21:49
  but I love the like the geode patterns that are kind of lining
• 1:21:53
  the ceiling. Gorgeous.
• 1:21:56
  Absolutely gorgeous. The transition practical, sorry,
• 1:21:59
  John did talk about it, but it was like in person it was just
• 1:22:02
  like they're going to think this is CG or some other weird
• 1:22:05
  transition. No, it really just separates and
• 1:22:08
  is incredible. Wow.
• 1:22:10
  And Tyler, Tyler Herron, who's our amazing production designer,
• 1:22:13
  just put his full heart into the set for me.
• 1:22:15
  And it meant it meant a lot to me because he knew how important
• 1:22:17
  this set was for me and like what I wanted to do and look.
• 1:22:21
  And I was like, it has to be the most fabulous place you could
• 1:22:23
  ever imagine. A Fraggle Rock and colorful
• 1:22:26
  like. But I will also say it's the the
• 1:22:29
  like Charlie was saying, the reveal was completely practical.
• 1:22:32
  The set was completely practical.
• 1:22:33
  I want to give a huge shout out to our amazing video effects
• 1:22:38
  team that created like 99.999% of the glitter you see falling
• 1:22:44
  down. The whole episode is digital and
• 1:22:47
  it is amazing the way that they made that that glitter look like
• 1:22:50
  it is there and the way that they make it look like it's
• 1:22:52
  bouncing off the character's heads and then it's landing
• 1:22:54
  behind. I mean, really and truly, I
• 1:22:56
  forget watching it that we weren't reading glitter the
• 1:22:58
  whole time. And and so I just love that
• 1:23:01
  first reveal where you get all of it at once and it's just
• 1:23:03
  those glorious like kaleidoscope of like practical work, video
• 1:23:08
  work. It's just, it's really cool.
• 1:23:10
  OK, but that one, that point 1% of that glitter got trailed
• 1:23:15
  throughout everybody's clothing. I think I took it all we're.
• 1:23:20
  Picking it out of our our clothing for the next like six
• 1:23:23
  weeks. That's true.
• 1:23:24
  So no, no word of a lie. I found one piece last week.
• 1:23:28
  No word of a lie. Yeah, Absolutely.
• 1:23:31
  Yeah, Yep. It was in my, it was in my car
• 1:23:35
  and transferred somehow. I mean, I just cleaned my car,
• 1:23:37
  so maybe it got lifted up, but it transferred into onto my
• 1:23:41
  pants somehow and it fell down. I was like, that is ridiculous.
• 1:23:44
  I'm never going away. I can imagine like getting the
• 1:23:48
  scripts for the first time for this episode and going
• 1:23:50
  glitterini. We're going to be spit and
• 1:23:53
  glitter. For weeks, there was there was,
• 1:23:57
  there was a lot of like, like, like, does it have to be real
• 1:24:01
  glitter for some of these moments?
• 1:24:02
  Was like Yep. Sorry.
• 1:24:08
  Yeah, it's Fraggle magic, so I don't know what to tell.
• 1:24:10
  You fraggle magic, you need to some glitter.
• 1:24:12
  That was such a pogy. Yep, by the way, Johnny.
• 1:24:15
  Yep. Yep.
• 1:24:21
  The apparently the glitter is magical and they can help you
• 1:24:24
  express yourself by changing your your clothing.
• 1:24:27
  And Pogie tries out a few different outfits.
• 1:24:29
  They're all very expressive and glittery.
• 1:24:31
  I love the fact that one of them is a carrot in a bow tie.
• 1:24:37
  Love it. Love it I I don't know what it
• 1:24:40
  is about puppets dressed as vegetables that just gets me
• 1:24:44
  it's. Always.
• 1:24:46
  Funny. And the bow tie.
• 1:24:47
  Just building that Lily. Wembley tries a few as well.
• 1:24:50
  He does one with silly glasses and a mustache and like a
• 1:24:54
  captain's hat with this big sparkly necklace.
• 1:24:57
  Then he goes back to the outfit he was wearing earlier, the
• 1:24:59
  robe, the necklace, the side ponytail.
• 1:25:02
  And he starts to panic. One of his friends don't accept
• 1:25:07
  him. And we get this great shot of
• 1:25:08
  all these different reflections of Wembley telling him that, you
• 1:25:13
  know, he's just go back to the way it should be and to make a
• 1:25:16
  decision and his emotions start up a glitternado, which.
• 1:25:22
  Is the most fabulous no go. Ahead you say it.
• 1:25:26
  No, you say it. You, you.
• 1:25:28
  You were going to do it. I jumped you.
• 1:25:29
  The most fabulous of all natural disasters.
• 1:25:32
  What a great line that is. Another section.
• 1:25:34
  Charlie Feldman Classic. Take that, Sharknado.
• 1:25:39
  Yeah, well, I have to say, you know, because I think you're
• 1:25:44
  you're the listeners Hyper one will find this interesting.
• 1:25:47
  Is that that, that moment when, when they're all, when they're
• 1:25:50
  trying on the different outfits, you know, the, the glitterini
• 1:25:53
  and Wembley and Pokey? We did something we did we've
• 1:25:56
  never done before on the show, which is we used a motion
• 1:25:59
  control camera, a full one. We did it a little bit in the
• 1:26:02
  four Wembley's episode, but it, that was a different rig.
• 1:26:04
  This was a full rented giant piece of machinery that if you
• 1:26:09
  don't know what that means, it means that you can program the
• 1:26:11
  camera to repeat the same moves over and over again.
• 1:26:14
  So what we did was we, we would shoot the the first initial take
• 1:26:19
  and then the camera would would memorize the moves and then it
• 1:26:22
  would keep replaying it. And that's how we were able to
• 1:26:24
  do the the Wembley's morphing into each other in in one shot.
• 1:26:28
  We also used it later in the song when we're climbing up the
• 1:26:31
  Glitter Mountains where you see Pokey Webley full body.
• 1:26:34
  And it's a very complicated thing to do because you cannot
• 1:26:37
  touch the set. You cannot move anything except
• 1:26:39
  for the thing you want to move, which is the puppet.
• 1:26:42
  And it it it's we I held the distinction, my episode hold the
• 1:26:47
  distinction of being the only episode of Fraggle Rock back to
• 1:26:50
  the rock that shot 8 hours of overtime.
• 1:26:53
  And it's because it was so hard to shoot those motion control
• 1:26:56
  shots. And so we literally shot one
• 1:26:58
  night until after midnight, which we'd never done before.
• 1:27:02
  And and I wanted to just give a moment here on this podcast to
• 1:27:05
  say how touched I was. I went home crying that night,
• 1:27:09
  not only because I was exhausted, but because I was so
• 1:27:11
  moved by the fact that the like entire cast and crew and team,
• 1:27:17
  everybody joyously was like stayed late and worked late and
• 1:27:22
  was like, no, no, no, we have to do this to get the right shot.
• 1:27:24
  We got to get it right. And I felt so guilty because I
• 1:27:27
  was like, I'm the one director who takes us into overtime.
• 1:27:30
  But I think it was worth it. It looks so spectacular.
• 1:27:32
  But that's how we did that. That's how we did those effects
• 1:27:34
  was that that was all shot in the set.
• 1:27:36
  It was all shot, you know, with that motion control camera.
• 1:27:39
  I think that's why you get those flawless transitions and they
• 1:27:41
  look so beautiful. Wow.
• 1:27:43
  Yeah, yeah. No, that really comes across.
• 1:27:46
  Johnny the the the director has so much vision.
• 1:27:50
  It's such a dream to I I can't imagine from my performers, but
• 1:27:53
  just to see because Johnny knows Johnny's been there, been in the
• 1:27:57
  trenches, know what's needed to give everyone support, but also
• 1:28:00
  just such kind and generous person that everyone wanted to
• 1:28:05
  be there because they believe in him, they believe in the
• 1:28:08
  project, they believe in the story especially.
• 1:28:10
  It was it really was a joy. Like we were exhausted and we
• 1:28:13
  got real, real zany towards the end there, but.
• 1:28:16
  Pizza was good, we ordered so that was good.
• 1:28:19
  But it was so everyone, you're right, I don't, I really don't
• 1:28:22
  think anyone minded because everyone was really, really on
• 1:28:25
  board with this episode. And I think it's because of your
• 1:28:27
  leadership. Thank you.
• 1:28:29
  I will say that what the moment that I was so touched by was
• 1:28:32
  that there was one crew person who just genuinely was always
• 1:28:38
  had a kind of like strong face on like one of those people,
• 1:28:41
  like, you know, had a good poker face.
• 1:28:43
  I guess you would say like you never knew if they were like
• 1:28:44
  happy or not. And then, you know, and was a
• 1:28:47
  wonderful he was incredible, but he's a sweetheart.
• 1:28:49
  But you know, I was nervous because I was like, Oh no,
• 1:28:51
  because you know, people want to get home with their families and
• 1:28:53
  their and whatever. And, you know, he had a very
• 1:28:55
  serious look on his face and I was like, he's mad at me.
• 1:28:58
  And if, and one of those people, I think one person's mad at me,
• 1:29:00
  I, I'm devastated. So I went up to him and I was
• 1:29:03
  like, hey, I just want to say I'm, I'm so sorry we're going
• 1:29:05
  late and I, I hope you're not upset.
• 1:29:07
  And he looked at me with tears in his eyes and he said, are you
• 1:29:10
  kidding me? He's like, this is the most
• 1:29:12
  important thing we could possibly be doing right now.
• 1:29:14
  He's like, I'm so in right now. And I was like, OK, I'm glad
• 1:29:19
  you're OK. That's what never happens like
• 1:29:23
  this. You're you're this set is so it
• 1:29:26
  moves like like so well, like. It's also so great, but.
• 1:29:30
  And as a as a performer, you know that Johnny, you know.
• 1:29:36
  And if you don't know, you need to know that the love that you
• 1:29:40
  have because you've been in the trenches with us and because of
• 1:29:45
  who you are, you know, it reminds me of that.
• 1:29:47
  There's a quote in a movie called Donnie Brasco where this
• 1:29:50
  gangster saying would you rather be feared or would you rather be
• 1:29:53
  loved? And, and he'd rather be feared.
• 1:29:56
  But, but you know, in the case of John Turtaglia, you are
• 1:30:00
  completely loved by every single, every single person that
• 1:30:04
  I know, including myself. And, and it's a genuine love
• 1:30:09
  and, and absolutely, you know, tears in our eyes because we
• 1:30:12
  don't want you to ever worry. We've got your back.
• 1:30:14
  And if it is a minor thing, a minor thing like getting to
• 1:30:18
  spend more time with you, that is a a blessing, not a not
• 1:30:21
  something to be upset at. So.
• 1:30:23
  Yeah, I love you, Connie Chen. Thank you, Johnny.
• 1:30:26
  Well, anti. Donnie Brasco, Yes.
• 1:30:29
  I've always said that Johnny Bradsticks not on Donnie Brasco.
• 1:30:34
  That's right. This is Johnny Bredstick.
• 1:30:37
  That's my other writers room name.
• 1:30:38
  I, I am. Well, I'm I'm very I'm very
• 1:30:41
  touched by that. Thank you.
• 1:30:42
  And I, I, I truly love this cast and that's crew too.
• 1:30:45
  So it was it was just it was just an excuse to spend more
• 1:30:47
  time together there. There you go.
• 1:30:50
  So not to break up this love fest, but we'll, we'll pause.
• 1:30:54
  On it. I'm sure we'll get back in
• 1:30:55
  therapy, but you're charging me by the hour.
• 1:30:58
  So while this glitter NATO is going on in outer space, Sprock
• 1:31:04
  is still trying to get Doc to sing.
• 1:31:06
  This is going to this is going to be important in a second.
• 1:31:09
  And for those of us who knew like this was the point in which
• 1:31:13
  we were like, oh, he's asking Lily Cooper to sing.
• 1:31:16
  We're going to get Lily and like, of course, if you don't
• 1:31:19
  know that she's a huge Broadway star, then like it might be a
• 1:31:22
  little surprise, but for most of us, we're just like, oh,
• 1:31:24
  finally, and this is what I was talking about at the beginning
• 1:31:28
  of this episode. There were two things that we
• 1:31:30
  asked for at the end of season one.
• 1:31:32
  One was give Pokey their own episode and the other one is we
• 1:31:37
  need Lily Cooper to sing on this show.
• 1:31:39
  And I'm so glad you found an opportunity.
• 1:31:41
  I'm so. Happy you said that because you
• 1:31:42
  know what we were I me, I don't speak to somebody.
• 1:31:45
  I was very nervous about it because the original Doc of
• 1:31:48
  course, did not sing. I'm sure Jerry Parks could sing,
• 1:31:50
  but he did not sing in the original series.
• 1:31:52
  And there was a there was I had an internal fear of like are we
• 1:31:56
  crossing the world too much because you know Doc and
• 1:31:59
  Sprocket, even though Sprocket's public clearly like they are
• 1:32:02
  just to represent the real protocol world and Frank Rock is
• 1:32:05
  its own thing. We're characters in person.
• 1:32:07
  So I was a little nervous about it.
• 1:32:08
  But then it ended up being one of my favorite parts of the
• 1:32:10
  whole series was that well and it makes sense for.
• 1:32:13
  What you're doing, like Doc is singing to Sprocket.
• 1:32:16
  You know, like they're talking about karaoke and you didn't do
• 1:32:21
  this, but you're also in this season starting to play a little
• 1:32:25
  bit with Doc and Sprocket and like a fantasy world.
• 1:32:28
  We get a couple of episodes where they have a little fantasy
• 1:32:31
  of, you know, Doc is picturing. In jail, yeah.
• 1:32:36
  Science jail, which is hysterical.
• 1:32:38
  Or there's one where, Yeah, but she's captain of the ship.
• 1:32:43
  That's it. Yeah.
• 1:32:44
  Takes the yacht job. Yeah.
• 1:32:46
  So like, I wouldn't, I would have expected that it would have
• 1:32:48
  been a fantasy and that would have been perfectly fine as
• 1:32:50
  well. But I think keeping the fact
• 1:32:53
  that she's singing in the real world and also, you know, really
• 1:32:58
  starting to put a foothold into the world of Fraggle Rock
• 1:33:01
  because like we see, you know, she has kind of a almost
• 1:33:05
  connection to them in in the first season with the something
• 1:33:08
  on her camera, she literally gets half her body into Fraggle
• 1:33:12
  rock when she's crawling through the the Fraggle hole earlier.
• 1:33:15
  And then we get a little teased, we'll get to this later in the
• 1:33:17
  podcast, but little tease at the end of the season.
• 1:33:20
  So it really seems like as the series goes on, maybe Doc is
• 1:33:24
  starting to get a little bit more comfortable with being in
• 1:33:27
  Frack Rock, which she doesn't even know exists yet.
• 1:33:29
  You never know you. Never know, anything can happen.
• 1:33:33
  We'll see also. You have a Lily Cooper, you've
• 1:33:37
  got the secret weapon. You you got to use it and it
• 1:33:40
  like she's got, she's incredible.
• 1:33:43
  The most incredible. The most incredible singer,
• 1:33:45
  Yeah. When you asked her are you
• 1:33:47
  comfortable singing, was she like, no, like absolutely not.
• 1:33:52
  I think she was surprised. Doesn't.
• 1:33:54
  Sing. Yeah, right.
• 1:33:56
  Can you imagine? She's like, no, it's not my
• 1:33:57
  character. No, she I think she was
• 1:33:58
  surprised because she knew that, you know, that tradition of Doc
• 1:34:01
  didn't sing, but I think she was thrilled.
• 1:34:04
  And especially the especially the way this story, you know,
• 1:34:07
  her, her storyline of of you know which, which which feels
• 1:34:11
  like, you know, again, Charlie so brilliantly had like three
• 1:34:15
  different stories going, each of each relatable to people in
• 1:34:17
  different ways. But, you know, I think every
• 1:34:19
  person can relate to if you're not a performer, but there's
• 1:34:23
  something that maybe someone made you feel like you shouldn't
• 1:34:27
  do because you wouldn't be taken seriously or you wouldn't be
• 1:34:29
  liked. You wouldn't be enough.
• 1:34:30
  So I love that her storyline is is, you know, exists on its own,
• 1:34:36
  having nothing to do with, you know, gender identity, nothing
• 1:34:38
  to do with that, just a different kind of identity just
• 1:34:40
  about, you know, who am I? If I'm not a scientist, who am
• 1:34:43
  I, You know, can I, why be taken seriously if I go and, you know,
• 1:34:47
  sing karaoke drunk and me in a bar at 5:00 in the morning?
• 1:34:50
  You know, it's like it gives it gives her the option to really
• 1:34:53
  just be herself in a different way.
• 1:34:55
  And I, I love that. I think he was so smart the way
• 1:34:57
  Charlie wrote that. Everyone contains multitudes
• 1:35:00
  like you were, you were more than just one thing to other
• 1:35:03
  people to yourself and you you shouldn't.
• 1:35:06
  And also just we're, we're a show that does not believe in
• 1:35:08
  taking anything too seriously. So it's really hard to hear a
• 1:35:11
  person who's like, I need to be a serious academic or a serious
• 1:35:16
  anything. And I, I don't, I don't think
• 1:35:20
  anyone is better off feeling like I think you need to, you
• 1:35:23
  need to loosen up. Got to laugh, yeah?
• 1:35:27
  It's true. So Wembley is still panicking.
• 1:35:31
  Feels like choosing what he wants to be just feels so
• 1:35:34
  permanent, but it makes him feel so alone.
• 1:35:37
  And then this is the moment that Charlie mentioned earlier.
• 1:35:41
  It really is like I'm getting chills just thinking about it.
• 1:35:43
  Like Pokey just reaches out and holds Wembley's hand.
• 1:35:46
  It's my favorite in my favorite shot and the whole thing, I'm so
• 1:35:49
  proud of that shot. That's my favorite thing that
• 1:35:51
  that, yeah, I, I was so excited to shoot that.
• 1:35:54
  I, I, I just, I want to, just to give a huge shout out to Amy
• 1:35:59
  Garcia. Amy Garcia is the assist on the
• 1:36:03
  majority of POGI and was instrumental in all of all of
• 1:36:10
  the emotion that comes through the handwork.
• 1:36:12
  And I do believe I could be wrong, but I do believe that Amy
• 1:36:17
  was the hand that actually reached.
• 1:36:19
  I think she was. Yeah.
• 1:36:21
  And yeah, and she and just, she's brilliant.
• 1:36:25
  She's brilliant. It's probably also Fraggle nerd
• 1:36:28
  fun to talk about the fact that you know that we have these
• 1:36:30
  things called grippy hands on the Fraggles for that most of
• 1:36:33
  the principal characters have and they're these cable
• 1:36:36
  controlled hands that are only put on for when we need them
• 1:36:39
  that that can grab props and hold props.
• 1:36:41
  And so, you know, if you watch the original series, they use it
• 1:36:44
  a lot with gobogram and postcards or Uber pulling a
• 1:36:47
  scarf away from his back. So we rebuilt them for the for
• 1:36:50
  the for the reboot and we didn't have one for Pogie.
• 1:36:52
  We just didn't think to build one.
• 1:36:55
  And the Wizards in the Calgary creature, Shaw, Jurgen and
• 1:36:59
  Scotty and Dina and the entire wonderful team were like, we got
• 1:37:02
  it and built a Pogie grippy hand pretty much overnight.
• 1:37:06
  And that's, that's what we use there.
• 1:37:08
  And I think that's why it looks so sweet and beautiful.
• 1:37:11
  Is that they they, there was that's a real thing.
• 1:37:13
  It wasn't animated, it wasn't CG, it was a blue screen.
• 1:37:15
  It's really just these two beautifully designed,
• 1:37:18
  mechanized, mechanized hands holding on to each other.
• 1:37:21
  And it's just, I think it's totally touching.
• 1:37:24
  And I'm usually not a, a big, you know, proponent of defending
• 1:37:31
  erasing arm rods, but this is one of those moments where if
• 1:37:34
  there were arm rods visible, they would have ruined the
• 1:37:37
  effect because like, we can't we, we it's emotional because
• 1:37:41
  they're real, because the fraggles are real.
• 1:37:44
  And those are real hands that are reaching out and grabbing
• 1:37:47
  each other. And it's such a simple moment
• 1:37:50
  too. Like you could have done
• 1:37:51
  anything in this moment. And the fact that it's just
• 1:37:54
  Pokey reaches out and holds Wembley's hand and like, that's
• 1:37:57
  enough. And.
• 1:37:58
  It felt like it was too easy to just do like a arm on the
• 1:38:01
  shoulder or it felt like it was just too easy to do an arm
• 1:38:04
  around the waist. It felt like it needed to be
• 1:38:05
  something that we don't usually see, but also is so universal,
• 1:38:09
  right? It's like that's the most like
• 1:38:12
  I've got you calming thing you can do for somebody is to grab
• 1:38:15
  their hand like that. So it just felt like that was
• 1:38:17
  the reason to do it and the way to do it at that moment.
• 1:38:20
  Yeah, and, Pogey says predictably.
• 1:38:25
  I'm Pogey. And.
• 1:38:28
  Wembley says I know that, you say it all the time and Pogey
• 1:38:31
  says and you're Wembley. No matter what you look like
• 1:38:34
  today or tomorrow, you'll always be Wembley.
• 1:38:36
  And then Pogey explains they like saying their name so much
• 1:38:41
  because it took them so long to find it.
• 1:38:44
  This is Charlie, You were talking about this earlier.
• 1:38:46
  And, and what I love about this too is it tells us a lot about
• 1:38:49
  Pogie. Not only does Pogie have more of
• 1:38:53
  a of a story, more of a back story to how they became who
• 1:38:57
  they are, that maybe their name when they were born or hatched
• 1:39:02
  was not Pogie. And we're not going to get that
• 1:39:05
  story here. And that's OK, that maybe that's
• 1:39:07
  not for us to know. And the fact that I think for
• 1:39:13
  any of us, it's we, we have to kind of find ourselves and gosh,
• 1:39:19
  and then for Pokey to take this thing that would started out as
• 1:39:22
  a silly catch phrase and to turn into something that's so
• 1:39:25
  poignant, like it's something that pokey wants to like shout
• 1:39:29
  from the mountains. Like I, I, I want to say I'm
• 1:39:31
  pokey because I discovered that I'm pokey.
• 1:39:34
  And I thought that was just a stupid thing that you said.
• 1:39:36
  It was so stupid. And it's not.
• 1:39:39
  No, I feel bad for thinking it was stupid.
• 1:39:41
  But it is all so stupid. That's all.
• 1:39:46
  But it also is meaningful. Names are meaningful.
• 1:39:50
  It's the wonderful thing about this life is you get to, if
• 1:39:56
  you're lucky, live long enough to see yourself change in so
• 1:39:59
  many ways. And it's always you, every
• 1:40:03
  moment. And others may not be around to
• 1:40:07
  to track it, but you, you're stuck with yourself.
• 1:40:10
  And you can either love who that person is and all of their
• 1:40:15
  changes, or you know the the opposite is frankly too sad and
• 1:40:20
  tragic to think about. So I hope everyone finds the
• 1:40:23
  pogi within themselves regardless of their identity,
• 1:40:26
  because you deserve to to keep exploring who that person is.
• 1:40:31
  Amen. And, and can I just say in terms
• 1:40:33
  of the name, I don't know why I didn't even think about this
• 1:40:35
  until this moment, but the truth is having a a name Kanya and
• 1:40:39
  having it spelled KANJA, I mean, I struggled with my name growing
• 1:40:45
  up. I was the kid who could not find
• 1:40:46
  the bracelet in the gift shop that said Kanye on it, right?
• 1:40:50
  I was the kid who didn't have, you know, a shirt that was, you
• 1:40:54
  know, had my name written on it because no one did that.
• 1:40:57
  And I went through a time when I was younger where I actually had
• 1:41:00
  one my grandmother. I have obviously two
• 1:41:02
  grandmothers. So my, my maternal grandmother,
• 1:41:05
  she, she said you want me to call you by a different name.
• 1:41:07
  And I said yes. So, so my maternal grandmother
• 1:41:10
  called me Aaron for the longest time and Yep.
• 1:41:13
  And even wrote birthday cards with it.
• 1:41:15
  And it wasn't until. I wow.
• 1:41:17
  Yep, it was until I was older that that I absolutely ended up
• 1:41:21
  loving my name and the way it was spelled and it was unique to
• 1:41:24
  who I am and so my connection and I again, I didn't even think
• 1:41:28
  about this. I was going to say, you didn't.
• 1:41:31
  You never told. Us I know I never like I'm
• 1:41:33
  literally thinking about this in this moment, but this is 100% my
• 1:41:38
  experience that I I too found my name and I have no problem if
• 1:41:42
  people get my name wrong. It's just a part.
• 1:41:45
  It's par for the courts. It's it's what it allows me to
• 1:41:48
  engage and explain and talk about how proud I am of my name
• 1:41:52
  and and the way it dispel it. And I'm OK with people messing
• 1:41:55
  it up because I get to talk with them about it.
• 1:42:00
  That's a beautiful. Question.
• 1:42:01
  About who you are and what it means to you.
• 1:42:03
  That's amazing. So Wembley has come to terms
• 1:42:10
  with the fact that he's Wembley and the glitternado stops.
• 1:42:16
  Thank goodness we get our second song of the episode here.
• 1:42:20
  It's called Free and High. It's from the original series
• 1:42:23
  episode. Wembley's Flight Is this Pokey's
• 1:42:28
  first like song? I mean, it's not a solo song
• 1:42:32
  obviously, but this is the first time that Pokey really gets to
• 1:42:34
  sing like a verse by themselves. I think, I think I've said, I I
• 1:42:40
  have said a party for some pants.
• 1:42:42
  Remember that I get to say that ridiculous line, but this is
• 1:42:47
  this is the first time really, yeah.
• 1:42:50
  That I that I'm doing a little bit more singing and yeah, no
• 1:42:52
  pressure. You're singing with Lily Cooper
• 1:42:56
  and Adam Lambert, like along with Jordan Lockhart.
• 1:43:01
  I mean, I Jordan, I felt comfortable with with the other
• 1:43:03
  two. I'm like, Oh my God.
• 1:43:04
  The, the, the grade, the, the grade 10 choir boy in me was
• 1:43:10
  kind of like going, oh, you're not ready for this.
• 1:43:13
  So I'll let you know my, my absolute personal approach to
• 1:43:17
  it. And, and again, it goes back to
• 1:43:19
  the entire music team and just everyone who supported me with
• 1:43:23
  the recording of, of my piece. I went into that recording
• 1:43:26
  studio and I said I'm not gonna I'm not going to try to out sing
• 1:43:32
  anyone. I'm not.
• 1:43:32
  That's not my goal here. My goal is to really get the
• 1:43:35
  emotion of of what it's about. And and when I tell you that I
• 1:43:39
  recorded something with like so much love in my heart, like I, I
• 1:43:45
  don't think I've ever performed anything with that much love in
• 1:43:47
  my heart. And it was it really.
• 1:43:49
  Nice, you can hear it. You can hear you.
• 1:43:50
  Can hear it come through. That's, that was the, that was
• 1:43:53
  all I said I could do is I could just be genuine and honest with
• 1:43:56
  my emotion. And that's what I went into.
• 1:43:58
  And I knew that the experts would help, have helped me get
• 1:44:02
  the right notes so I don't have to worry about that.
• 1:44:06
  And it's rare. We're usually quite critical of
• 1:44:09
  ourselves as performers, right? We analyze it.
• 1:44:13
  And it's one of the few times where I've actually said I like
• 1:44:17
  how you sound, Kanye. I think you sound spectacular
• 1:44:22
  and it and it, it is that heart. Your, your verse is just like,
• 1:44:26
  it's pure joy. It's just like, it feels like
• 1:44:28
  you're floating on a cloud. It's just, it's just beautiful.
• 1:44:31
  Wow. Thank you.
• 1:44:32
  I love how you sound, Kanye. Oh, thank.
• 1:44:34
  You. Thank you so much.
• 1:44:36
  It's wonderful. And and as as you said, like you
• 1:44:41
  get to sing the song with Adam Lambert and Lily Cooper, which
• 1:44:44
  what a gift both of them are. And I just love like Lily, she's
• 1:44:49
  so talented and like to see her really belting it out.
• 1:44:51
  And then when we get the split screen with Lily Cooper singing
• 1:44:55
  with Wembley, I think it's just such a wonderful moment in this
• 1:44:58
  episode that like to to finally, I know I already talked about
• 1:45:02
  this, but like to see those these two worlds start to get
• 1:45:06
  closer and closer together. In a way, And not even knowing
• 1:45:09
  that they're connecting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:45:12
  They have no idea, which I think is so cool.
• 1:45:15
  I love it. And, and, and I love that this
• 1:45:17
  song also, I think this is just, you know, it wasn't purposely
• 1:45:20
  chosen for this reason, but I think it's a nice alignment.
• 1:45:22
  The fact that it was originally sung by Richard Hunt, you know,
• 1:45:25
  who was, you know, a member of the LGBT plus community, you
• 1:45:29
  know, and, and a hero to all of us.
• 1:45:32
  Like he's one, he's my personal hero.
• 1:45:35
  And so just to, to, to know that we were getting to do that song,
• 1:45:39
  you know, that he originated. I don't know, there's just
• 1:45:41
  something very special about that too.
• 1:45:44
  Yeah, yeah, that's great. I mean, just to have all these
• 1:45:47
  connections and all these talented folks who, you know,
• 1:45:51
  have their own personal stories that are related to the story
• 1:45:56
  that you guys are telling him in this episode.
• 1:45:57
  To be working on it, Everyone it it's just great to have you all
• 1:46:02
  involved with this. So Wembley and Pogey borrow some
• 1:46:08
  glitter from Glitterini to take back to Gobo's party.
• 1:46:10
  Now, this is an interesting line as well.
• 1:46:13
  So Glitterini says, oh, this younger generation, I'm so proud
• 1:46:17
  to be glittering along long enough to see this.
• 1:46:19
  So, so Glitterini, I mean, we could have kind of figured this
• 1:46:22
  out through the context of the episode, but Glitterini, I
• 1:46:24
  guess, is specifically like this older, weird generation that's
• 1:46:29
  kind of bringing in. So tell me a little bit about
• 1:46:32
  like what's what's important about that for this?
• 1:46:35
  Character you mentioned this line, it's important.
• 1:46:38
  It's something our queer elders are absolutely important, not
• 1:46:43
  only to help guide us, but also because unfortunately, it is so
• 1:46:48
  very rare. We don't have the Richard hunts
• 1:46:51
  in our lives anymore because of a great league.
• 1:46:56
  You know, that that hit our, our community hit hit gay men
• 1:46:59
  hardest of all. And so we have a character like
• 1:47:02
  Lurini who gets to be here and see all the changes in the
• 1:47:05
  community and get to enjoy the, the, we have a lot more to do.
• 1:47:12
  There's a lot more that we're fighting against, but at least
• 1:47:15
  he made it this long to enjoy the the the beauty and the
• 1:47:21
  acceptance that at least we have gotten to all the glitter that
• 1:47:25
  we're glittering right now. And I think it that that last
• 1:47:29
  line, the keep glittering babies like great last line was such a
• 1:47:33
  perfect example of the collaboration of Fraggle rock
• 1:47:36
  that, you know, Charlie was there on set that day was
• 1:47:39
  visiting for actually for the for the week, weren't you?
• 1:47:42
  You're there for the week and yeah, it was just wonderful.
• 1:47:45
  And Ben Deroche, who's puppeteering Glitterini, you
• 1:47:49
  know, who did such a brilliant job with that puppet.
• 1:47:51
  And you know, that was a that's a hard puppet.
• 1:47:53
  That's a big puppet. And it's long and it's Ben has
• 1:47:56
  these like long, insanely like long, like giraffe arms.
• 1:48:00
  And so he was perfect to do it. He did such a beautiful job with
• 1:48:03
  it. But that was such a moment of
• 1:48:05
  like Ben and Charlie, you know, live on set coming up with that
• 1:48:09
  last line, like that last line. I don't, it wasn't.
• 1:48:11
  I don't think it was, but I think it was like, you guys came
• 1:48:12
  up with it together. Yeah.
• 1:48:14
  And it was such a beautiful moment.
• 1:48:16
  And then Adam heard it and, and in the recording studio
• 1:48:18
  afterwards, and this was like laughing so hard.
• 1:48:21
  He's like, what a great line that his delivery of it worked.
• 1:48:23
  So it's just like, you know, these these different worlds
• 1:48:26
  coming together to make this one moment happen that has so much
• 1:48:29
  meaning. Like Charlie was saying because
• 1:48:30
  of what what it's saying. I, I just love it.
• 1:48:32
  I love that moment. Fantastic, I love it.
• 1:48:37
  Can I just, I just want to jump in really quick because Johnny,
• 1:48:40
  what you said just reminded me of of something that I meant to
• 1:48:44
  say earlier and I totally forgot.
• 1:48:45
  But the when you watch the behind the scenes video of that
• 1:48:52
  moment when, when Glitterinius is is coming forward and then
• 1:48:57
  Pogey and Wembley are are coming to join Glitterini, you don't
• 1:49:01
  realize that you have Bender O'Shea and Glitterini.
• 1:49:06
  You have Keira Hall and Andrew Cooper assisting on Glitterini.
• 1:49:10
  You have myself, who's behind Jordan Lockhart, and there is a
• 1:49:14
  very narrow gap in which we can actually get through.
• 1:49:20
  And when you watch it, you realize that there's so much
• 1:49:23
  going on in terms of the puppeteers looking at each other
• 1:49:26
  and Wheeling around each other on these rollies.
• 1:49:29
  But, you know, on the camera, it just happened.
• 1:49:32
  So it is so complex and so complicated.
• 1:49:36
  And to your point, Johnny, it just looks so effortless.
• 1:49:38
  And it just, you really believe in these characters just being.
• 1:49:44
  You know, the other example real quick of that, but actually I'm
• 1:49:46
  so glad you just thought that. I'm kind of, I think also if
• 1:49:47
  people can't really see the video, I wish you could find the
• 1:49:50
  angle that shows that. It's also, you know, in the song
• 1:49:52
  when Glitterini kind of launches the glitter to the glitter piles
• 1:49:55
  and the piles start moving around.
• 1:49:57
  I had this, I have this image in my head of like very theatrical
• 1:50:00
  of like all of a sudden, like all the piles of glitter moving
• 1:50:02
  and chasing each other. He's creating the stairway and
• 1:50:05
  you know, it's like 10, forty, 5:11 PM at night.
• 1:50:08
  I was exhausted and our amazing crew, like it jumped in.
• 1:50:13
  Our ADS were down there. People were like literally like
• 1:50:16
  like crab walking under the set, rolling around.
• 1:50:19
  I wish people could see me right now rolling around these piles
• 1:50:21
  of glitter, you know, and just again, jumping in and moving.
• 1:50:25
  So literally that moment is like 7 puppeteers and like 9 crew all
• 1:50:31
  working around each other to try to move.
• 1:50:33
  I just just puppet magic puppet puppet magic.
• 1:50:38
  Brilliant Wembley and Pogey return to Fraggle Rock.
• 1:50:43
  Wembley explains that, you know, Pogey is not a go or a bow,
• 1:50:47
  maybe something else leaving it open-ended, open to
• 1:50:50
  interpretation, just like Wembley, because Wembley's now
• 1:50:53
  got this new look. Gobo asked if it's permanence,
• 1:50:56
  but Wembley sort of confirms like it.
• 1:50:59
  Maybe I'll bring it out every so often and and again, like could,
• 1:51:02
  could go any direction for Wembley, and that's that's a
• 1:51:05
  good thing. But I also love the fact that
• 1:51:07
  you do bring this cut this outfit back later on.
• 1:51:10
  Like this wasn't just a Oh no, that's the episode where we talk
• 1:51:12
  about that thing and like we're actually starting to write new,
• 1:51:15
  you know, character decisions for for Wembley and it's going
• 1:51:19
  to carry through. So that's that's fantastic.
• 1:51:22
  I'm so glad you said that, Joe, because that brings us to the
• 1:51:24
  point we talked about the writers room, which was, you
• 1:51:26
  know, we felt very strongly that it would be, it would be more
• 1:51:31
  true to life and more impactful to have in both Pogey's case and
• 1:51:36
  Remedy's case, to have these characters be characters that we
• 1:51:39
  see on the regular. But this isn't the a very
• 1:51:42
  special episode of Fraggle Rock where just, you know, we we
• 1:51:45
  create a new Fraggle who, you know, represents this.
• 1:51:49
  And then to your point, maybe we never see them again.
• 1:51:52
  You know, and the fact that slight series that have done
• 1:51:55
  that, we just felt like in the world of Fraggle Rock, it was
• 1:51:57
  more important to have it be characters that we know and we
• 1:51:59
  love. And this is another part of them
• 1:52:02
  that we get to know and love and that we can continue on.
• 1:52:04
  So even to your point about like in I think it's episode 9 in the
• 1:52:08
  radish ball when you see Wembley with the slide ponytail.
• 1:52:11
  So that again, you know, and it I think we I think Gobo says
• 1:52:14
  that Wembley looks great. That's it.
• 1:52:15
  Like I don't think we ever talked about it.
• 1:52:17
  No one says Wembley wearing a ponytail like it just becomes
• 1:52:20
  part of who he is. And that, I think, is the magic
• 1:52:23
  of the show and that we were able to do that, that we were,
• 1:52:26
  we were, you know, enabled and unable to do that, to have these
• 1:52:31
  characters have these new parts of their personalities and just
• 1:52:34
  have it be part of the show. And this isn't the first time
• 1:52:37
  you've done this. This is in season one.
• 1:52:41
  In the Glow, Buber has his whole metaphor with his glowing tail,
• 1:52:46
  and that tail glows every so often.
• 1:52:47
  It still happens. That's right.
• 1:52:49
  Like it's, it's a part of the overall Fraggle lore, but also,
• 1:52:52
  more importantly, a part of Buber's character, in this case,
• 1:52:54
  Wembley's character. I love that.
• 1:52:57
  Like, these characters can still grow and evolve.
• 1:52:59
  And yeah, we don't have to go backward and we don't have to,
• 1:53:04
  like, be married to the status quo.
• 1:53:07
  Status quo is boring. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:53:10
  I mean no, no, say say go for it.
• 1:53:14
  There's there's some shows where they a character has to reset.
• 1:53:19
  A lot of animation does that where you can't really see the
• 1:53:22
  characters grow. And I love the opportunity for
• 1:53:25
  Back to the Rock where there's certainly in the classic
• 1:53:28
  episodes like Sidebottom comes back and that's certainly an
• 1:53:31
  aspect of Uber. But like not not huge changes
• 1:53:35
  happen to our gang. So we're a little different.
• 1:53:38
  We have an arc to our story. We have a full season to see
• 1:53:41
  them exploring grow, and I love that about our story
• 1:53:44
  storytelling is that we can do something like that where this
• 1:53:46
  comes back and is a part of and you, you grow like you do in
• 1:53:49
  real life. That's.
• 1:53:50
  Right. That brings us to the end of
• 1:53:54
  this episode. My my one question I have is I
• 1:53:58
  always wonder this when the Fraggles meet a new character
• 1:54:02
  who does not live at Fraggle Rock is will we see them again?
• 1:54:07
  Like is, is there going to be a reason to have the great
• 1:54:11
  Glitterini come to Fraggle Rock or to start crossing over back
• 1:54:15
  and forth or mixing and matching all these other characters that
• 1:54:18
  we we see, you know, in the extended rock?
• 1:54:20
  What? Do you think, I hope so.
• 1:54:23
  I hope so. I think, you know, usually it
• 1:54:25
  comes down to, in this case, the Glitterini or or Jamplin who
• 1:54:28
  came back this year with with Daveed and it comes down to
• 1:54:31
  people's interest in availability and schedule.
• 1:54:33
  And and, you know, when it comes to like characters that aren't
• 1:54:37
  performed by celebrities because, yeah, there's just so
• 1:54:39
  much that goes into a celebrity driven character because you
• 1:54:41
  have to think about their schedule and their recording.
• 1:54:42
  So that. But when it's a character that
• 1:54:44
  we just discovered that we love, then yeah.
• 1:54:47
  I mean, you know, and I think Litterini is that character for
• 1:54:50
  sure, even though he's voiced by Adam.
• 1:54:52
  I hope. I think Adam has such a good
• 1:54:54
  time doing it that I think if we said, hey, we want to bring the
• 1:54:58
  Litterini back, we have another episode, I think he'd be
• 1:55:00
  thrilled. I'd like to.
• 1:55:00
  I'd like to think. Brett Goldstein would be back
• 1:55:04
  immediately. Brett Goldstein, do you think?
• 1:55:08
  He likes Freggles. Do you think he had a good time?
• 1:55:09
  I don't know. He's going.
• 1:55:12
  To be, I mean, if I have my, my druthers, he's going to be, he's
• 1:55:15
  going to be a puppeteer someday because he is.
• 1:55:18
  He's actually really good and he loves it so much.
• 1:55:21
  He does. He was so much fun to work with
• 1:55:22
  this year too. Well, we'll get to that one.
• 1:55:25
  That's that's coming up soon. So do you do any of the three of
• 1:55:29
  you have any other thoughts about this episode or memories
• 1:55:32
  from filming this episode that you wanted to share before we,
• 1:55:35
  before we move on, do we cover it all?
• 1:55:39
  I guess shout out to my dad the day after Father's Day for
• 1:55:43
  giving me the line for Ma Gorg. Ma Gorg says you don't have to
• 1:55:48
  understand, you just have to support.
• 1:55:51
  And when I came out to my dad, literally he told me that.
• 1:55:55
  And so thank you, Steven L Feldman.
• 1:55:59
  I think that's one of the most I've seen that line.
• 1:56:01
  A lot of folks online mention that line.
• 1:56:04
  Yeah. And how that that is the most
• 1:56:06
  like, you know, impact one of the most impactful lines because
• 1:56:10
  it's so true. And it's it's, you know, fire
• 1:56:13
  rocks always been about acceptance and love and
• 1:56:15
  everyone's welcome. And I think that that line,
• 1:56:18
  especially from the from Ma Gorg, right?
• 1:56:20
  Like, you know, I mean, I love that Ma Gorg is is has become
• 1:56:24
  who she's becoming this version of the show.
• 1:56:26
  I really do. We're going to have a lot to
• 1:56:29
  talk about with Ma Gorg coming up later in the season just
• 1:56:32
  because she goes through some, I mean talk about not staying with
• 1:56:36
  the status quo, like she goes through a lot of growth.
• 1:56:39
  But I think, I think the the line that you just quoted
• 1:56:43
  Charlie is, you know, it's obviously specifically kind of
• 1:56:49
  pointed toward POG org who really doesn't understand these
• 1:56:53
  things and PAH doesn't change. Understand most things.
• 1:56:57
  Yeah, Really. Yeah, even, Yeah.
• 1:56:58
  Beyond the South that we're trying to teach in this episode,
• 1:57:00
  he really doesn't understand anything.
• 1:57:02
  But he he will never understand Junior.
• 1:57:07
  He'll never understand the boxes.
• 1:57:09
  And the very best we could do is maybe try to convince him to
• 1:57:13
  like, don't worry about understanding, Just accept and
• 1:57:16
  just show some love. Well, sorry, I was going to say
• 1:57:22
  like, I think something that we talked about in the room that's
• 1:57:24
  really important is about hog org is that like he's also a
• 1:57:27
  victim of generational trauma and generational expectations.
• 1:57:31
  That's something we and and like going back to what we were
• 1:57:33
  talking about before about little kids being so innocent
• 1:57:35
  when they try and their mothers close it, they don't, they think
• 1:57:38
  they, there's nothing ingrained in them that thinks that that's,
• 1:57:41
  you know, not quote UN quote right or wrong until an adult
• 1:57:45
  says so. And so that's kind of pog,
• 1:57:47
  right? Like he's the reason he feels
• 1:57:49
  this way about Fraggles, the reason he feels this way about
• 1:57:51
  the Kingdom, the reason he feels this way about Junior.
• 1:57:54
  All of that comes from what he's been taught, you know, in
• 1:57:56
  incorrectly. So, So, yeah, I, I just think
• 1:58:00
  it's, it's, you know, Paul's not I, I think he's an interesting
• 1:58:03
  character because I don't think he at his heart is a horrible
• 1:58:07
  person at all. I think he's just been taught
• 1:58:09
  the wrong things. And, and so it's, it's lovely to
• 1:58:12
  see the little bit of the stair step he's had this season.
• 1:58:16
  He's getting closer to becoming a, a better person.
• 1:58:20
  And and you know, I think so much of that is Ma that, that
• 1:58:23
  that Ma has really stepped in and said, I'm not going to let
• 1:58:26
  you be the final decision maker on these things anymore.
• 1:58:33
  Hog needs therapy I think. Very much so.
• 1:58:37
  He needs Fraggle therapy. He needs, he needs to to spend a
• 1:58:41
  couple days in Fraggle Rock. Maybe that'll happen in Season
• 1:58:43
  3. Season 3, we'll see.
• 1:58:46
  I, I, I think there's something really wonderful too about the
• 1:58:48
  relationship between Ma and PA Gorg and it, it reminds me of a
• 1:58:53
  discussion I heard about Homer Citizen.
• 1:58:55
  And you know, it's the idea that, you know, paws, paws so
• 1:59:00
  flawed as a character. And we look at him and say, how
• 1:59:03
  can, how can anyone like Pennsylvania?
• 1:59:06
  But the simple fact that Ma loves him is, is what makes us
• 1:59:11
  like, because because Ma is, is, she is someone who we can, we
• 1:59:16
  can truly connect to with on an emotional level.
• 1:59:19
  And we're like, this is a good, this is a good person.
• 1:59:22
  And she is given her her seal of approval with her love towards
• 1:59:28
  Pennsylvania. That you're like, OK, there's
• 1:59:30
  something in there that we don't know yet that she sees.
• 1:59:34
  I like. That yeah, like there's there's
• 1:59:35
  something yet to be revealed, you know, not just the fact that
• 1:59:39
  they love each other, but why do they love each other?
• 1:59:41
  And should we love them? Or.
• 1:59:45
  Should we, should we, you know, give them a permit permissions
• 1:59:47
  to, you know, become better Gorgs?
• 1:59:53
  They have it in them. I mean, Paws, the closest thing
• 1:59:56
  we have, I don't want to call them the villain, but Paws
• 1:59:58
  certainly an antagonist. And we did sort of have to reset
• 2:00:02
  POG at the start of this season to make sure there's some
• 2:00:06
  conflict in this world. But I, I do think he stands in
• 2:00:11
  for an optimism we have in this writers room and and in this
• 2:00:16
  show that people can learn and people can change and no one is
• 2:00:20
  really like too far gone. Like he's, he's sitting in for a
• 2:00:25
  lot there. And that's sort of the, the
• 2:00:27
  incremental step of you don't have to understand.
• 2:00:30
  You just got to support the a lot of people change their mind
• 2:00:34
  because of someone in their orbit, their relative, their
• 2:00:36
  friends. They realize, oh, it's not so
• 2:00:40
  weird or scary to to know someone who's quite different.
• 2:00:43
  And sometimes people just don't find the empathy otherwise they
• 2:00:47
  need someone that is in their their life.
• 2:00:50
  So that's that's POG org and I'm very curious what kind of new
• 2:00:55
  dad he'll be. Spoilers.
• 2:00:58
  New dad. My goodness.
• 2:01:01
  All right. Well, again, another reason why
• 2:01:04
  Apple TV, if you're listening, give us a season three.
• 2:01:07
  We got to see what this thing looks like.
• 2:01:11
  So as we're wrapping this up, we have a question that we like to
• 2:01:14
  ask all of our guests. And if you can each tell me, how
• 2:01:19
  do you plan to make this world a little fragglier?
• 2:01:24
  For me, people may not realize this, but I spent the majority
• 2:01:28
  of my working career as a teacher, as an educator.
• 2:01:31
  And so puppetry was something I never gave up on.
• 2:01:34
  It was something I absolutely loved.
• 2:01:37
  And, you know, 2020 plus years as an educator, but still never
• 2:01:42
  giving up on my absolute dream of of possibly doing something
• 2:01:45
  that was creative. And, you know, John Tartaglia
• 2:01:49
  and the Jim Henson Company and all the people who saw whatever
• 2:01:53
  they saw in me and gave me that opportunity that allowed me to,
• 2:01:57
  to pivot my entire life. And I'm, I've, I've left my
• 2:02:00
  teaching career, but I've said to myself that I want to do a
• 2:02:04
  lot of what was at the core of what I did as a teacher, which
• 2:02:07
  is to try to improve the lives of children.
• 2:02:09
  And I did that on a, in a, in a classroom and community context
• 2:02:13
  when I was a teacher. But I want to be able to do it
• 2:02:15
  globally. So following my dreams is a big
• 2:02:19
  part of it. Being a, being on Fraggle Rock
• 2:02:21
  is a big part of it. And, you know, for my own
• 2:02:24
  children, I'm able to demonstrate that, you know, you
• 2:02:28
  can follow your dreams and you can live a life that is filled
• 2:02:31
  with joy in all aspects of your life.
• 2:02:35
  And I think that's a pretty fraggly thing to to do.
• 2:02:39
  Hear. Hear.
• 2:02:40
  I love that. I, I mean, I don't want to cop
• 2:02:44
  out and say like, I, I hope I continue to write fraggly no
• 2:02:49
  matter what I'm writing on. I, I love so much about this
• 2:02:54
  room. This room means the world to me,
• 2:02:56
  the most supportive, kind, silliest, sweetest people I've
• 2:02:58
  ever worked with. But we go into every room with,
• 2:03:02
  OK, what do we want to what do you want to talk about?
• 2:03:05
  What do you want to do for the world to make it better?
• 2:03:07
  So if I could even in really like I, I, I do a lot of
• 2:03:13
  different kind of shows. I I'd like to think there's
• 2:03:16
  always room for any kind of show, be it a more adult action
• 2:03:21
  related show or or a more fragile Co viewing experience,
• 2:03:25
  that there's a way to be like, no, I want peace on this earth.
• 2:03:29
  I want more people to have rights that are are not being
• 2:03:35
  able to be taken away and and and humanity to be recognized.
• 2:03:40
  And that is how I will try and then also not take myself so
• 2:03:44
  seriously, which is extremely important as a fraggle I love.
• 2:03:50
  That and I think in that same vein, I think this show, working
• 2:03:55
  on it and performing on it and everything has has reminded me
• 2:04:01
  of the the incredible importance of not taking things too
• 2:04:04
  seriously and of spreading joy the way the Fraggles do.
• 2:04:11
  You know, celebrating, celebrating the moment the way
• 2:04:14
  the Fraggles do. Like we were talking before
• 2:04:15
  about like the, the, you know, let's throw a party because God
• 2:04:17
  was going away for an hour. And I think that that definitely
• 2:04:21
  is something like I, I have tried to kind of carry past
• 2:04:24
  shooting the show of like, you know, being authentic with
• 2:04:27
  yourself in a goofy moment and encouraging others to be as
• 2:04:30
  goofy as you are or just celebrating that the, the, the
• 2:04:34
  silly, goofy moments where before I probably would have
• 2:04:38
  been a little bit more insecure about it a little bit more, you
• 2:04:40
  know, self deprecating about it or whatever.
• 2:04:41
  Like I think it's just owning those moments a little bit more.
• 2:04:46
  And, and I think the biggest thing I think is finding the
• 2:04:49
  hope. You know, we live in a very
• 2:04:51
  scary world right now. We live in a very difficult
• 2:04:53
  world. You know, we're inundated
• 2:04:55
  everyday about, you know, the climate's falling apart, animals
• 2:04:58
  are dying, this is happening, there's wars.
• 2:05:00
  It's just, you know, it's it's overwhelming to be a human right
• 2:05:02
  now. And just it is that, you know, I
• 2:05:06
  know you guys will talk about this, but that last episode of
• 2:05:09
  the second season, like was very personal in many ways to a lot
• 2:05:12
  of us because it is, it is hard to find the hope at this point
• 2:05:16
  in humanity. And I think the Fraggles
• 2:05:18
  naturally are filled with that. And so I think it's just trying
• 2:05:22
  to remind yourself every day of the hope that if the Fraggles
• 2:05:25
  can be hopeful about the world and about the future, they're
• 2:05:27
  facing all these horrible things, but they still are
• 2:05:30
  hopeful about that things will get better.
• 2:05:32
  I think we could do the same thing.
• 2:05:34
  Amen. Tanya Chen.
• 2:05:37
  Charlie Feldman, Chant Tartaglia, Thank you all so much
• 2:05:41
  for being here. Thank you all so much for the
• 2:05:43
  gift of Fraggle Rock. Back to the Rock.
• 2:05:46
  It's been such a joy to get to talk to all of you about this
• 2:05:50
  really, honestly amazing episode of television.
• 2:05:54
  Not just a great episode of Fraggle Rock, a great episode of
• 2:05:58
  TV history. It really has been a gift to so
• 2:06:01
  many people and I'm so happy it exists and I'm so happy that I
• 2:06:06
  got to chat with all of you in in such great detail about it.
• 2:06:10
  Thank you, Joe, Do you feel better now also that we like
• 2:06:13
  talked in the therapy of Boxing Day.
• 2:06:14
  Do you feel better? You got it off your chest.
• 2:06:16
  I want to make sure that lifted, I tell you.
• 2:06:20
  I've knocked down my box and now I'm dancing on top of it after
• 2:06:23
  having gotten all that out of my system so.
• 2:06:27
  And I'll just say really quickly for those listing, you can't see
• 2:06:29
  Joe, but his eyes were so wide and fearful while he was
• 2:06:33
  bringing it up. But I, I applaud you for being
• 2:06:35
  honest in how you felt. I really do.
• 2:06:37
  I think that's so important. I'm just glad now that we're now
• 2:06:39
  that we're all friends. I know exactly what to get you
• 2:06:42
  for your birthday. An empty box.
• 2:06:48
  Not just an empty box, a box that you can smash and dance
• 2:06:51
  upon there. You go, of course.
• 2:06:53
  Thank you. I will.
• 2:06:55
  I will send. I'll text you my my shipping
• 2:06:58
  address. Good.
• 2:06:59
  Excellent. Perfect.
• 2:07:10
  Fraggle Talk, the unofficial Fraggle Rock Podcast, is brought
• 2:07:13
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• 2:07:16
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• 2:07:20
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• 2:07:23
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• 2:07:25
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• 2:07:27
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