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Carla S. Vijian - From Malaysia to Manhattan – A Journey in Ethics, Audit, and Marathon Running · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:16
  Sinead Donovan: Welcome everybody to this series of Difference Makers Discussed our Chartered Accountants Worldwide episode where we interview members globally.
• 0:25
  Sinead Donovan: I'm Sinead Donovan, and today I am joined by Carla Viggian, who is originally from Malaysia but a member of Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand, and is also a CPA of New York State Society, where she is currently based and working as principal in the International Ethics Standard Board, or IESBA, as we know it better.
• 0:51
  Sinead Donovan: So, Carla, I'm going to pass over to you from Malaysia to New Zealand and now to New York, all via a uh career in audit and now in the Ethics Standard Center.
• 1:04
  Sinead Donovan: Tell us your story.
• 1:07
  Carla Vijian: I'm very pleased to be invited on this podcast.
• 1:11
  Carla Vijian: Thank you again for the opportunity.
• 1:12
  Carla Vijian: Before I start, I just um can I clarify that I'm an associate member of the New York State Society?
• 1:19
  Carla Vijian: Um, they do have different various qualifications.
• 1:22
  Carla Vijian: Um, so I'd just like to um uh clarify that.
• 1:25
  Carla Vijian: And yes, the scholarship to study in New Zen was um a life-changing moment.
• 1:31
  Carla Vijian: It really opened a door.
• 1:32
  Carla Vijian: I could have never imagined growing up in Malaysia.
• 1:35
  Carla Vijian: Um, you know, that took me to New Zealand to study, and then postgraduation, I um I was employed in the public sector in New Zen and audit became the foundation of that career.
• 1:48
  Carla Vijian: And from there, I was able to move to Sydney and then later to London, both times joining Deloitte in each of the locations.
• 1:56
  Carla Vijian: And I have to say, audit um, as I mentioned before, life-changing, different clients, different assignments.
• 2:03
  Carla Vijian: One day I could be learning about construction of a straddler at the port operation.
• 2:09
  Carla Vijian: The next week I could be learning about revenue recognition at a premium outlet, or even learning about the different seven layers of road and learning about the depreciation rate.
• 2:21
  Carla Vijian: And then also opportunity that I could never forget is watching deep sea divers laying out pipes.
• 2:28
  Carla Vijian: Um, so those experiences definitely taught me quickly about the beauty of auditing, and it's just not about sitting back behind a desk ticking boxes.
• 2:39
  Carla Vijian: Um, it definitely defined me in terms of my thinking about curiosity and professional judgment, and also really built my confidence as a young adult to ask questions, and especially when it's a difficult one.
• 2:54
  Carla Vijian: And no question is ever a stupid question, especially, you know, when you ask the same question and you get a different answer from a client, you know, you need to keep probing.
• 3:03
  Carla Vijian: So working across different countries have gave me the culture agility.
• 3:09
  Carla Vijian: And while the frameworks were global, the way the businesses were done was always local.
• 3:15
  Carla Vijian: So my experience, scholarship from New Zen right down to where I am today, really helped me become the adult that I am now, the ability to listen, observe, and adapt.
• 3:29
  Carla Vijian: And along the way, I have to say, I have to acknowledge that I was really fortunate and still am to have worked with incredible leaders that really shaped me earlier on.
• 3:39
  Carla Vijian: The impressions that a lot of them left in my early years, for example, the previous Orator General Kevin Brady and Lynn Provo, and many partners I gone to work on very closely subsequently.
• 3:52
  Carla Vijian: Um, every time they spoke, they held the truth and they showed the more courage by standing by the judgment.
• 4:01
  Carla Vijian: And, you know, even when it was not popular.
• 4:03
  Carla Vijian: So those lessons really stayed with me much longer than I studied in any textbook.
• 4:08
  Carla Vijian: Um, so yeah.
• 4:10
  Sinead Donovan: And it's interesting you say that um about that they stand by judgments that aren't necessarily popular, because I think that is, and we'll we'll touch on this later, but that's a lovely kind of segue into your current role, which is all about ethics, which of course quite often is about you know being brave enough to take decisions that aren't necessarily popular.
• 4:30
  Sinead Donovan: But before we get to that, you you gloriously skipped over all of those lovely years of of New Zealand, of Sydney, of UK, where you worked as an auditor.
• 4:41
  Sinead Donovan: And it was it's fascinating because when we had our initial um chat, Carla, what I loved was that you you you you did cite all these wonderful experiences you had, and you mentioned there about you know witnessing divers laying deep sea cables.
• 4:56
  Sinead Donovan: And I think it's really important to get that across, that that's what the profession is about.
• 5:01
  Sinead Donovan: And being a good auditor is not sitting behind a desk, it's about understanding business.
• 5:05
  Sinead Donovan: And and talk to us a little bit more about that and about what that is, I guess maybe how that is framed, how you go about in your your your wider standard setting agenda now.
• 5:18
  Carla Vijian: Um, so it before I get to that stage, like one of the underrated gifts of audit training is how you know it changes the way you how you read events.
• 5:28
  Carla Vijian: So, for example, I like to share that last week I read about the Russia-China agreement on the Power Siberia pipeline.
• 5:37
  Carla Vijian: You know, that's a deal that could reshape energy flows across Asia.
• 5:40
  Carla Vijian: Now, first instinct reading that is how, you know, it doesn't just stop at the headline.
• 5:46
  Carla Vijian: You do think about who's funding it, what are the incentives and what assumptions were built in, and you know, what are the risks.
• 5:54
  Carla Vijian: So that habit of probing beneath the surface has always been ingrained since the day you know I joined and became an auditor.
• 6:02
  Carla Vijian: And that's why I see audit as a great training for clarity and for you to really exercise your curiosity in and seek clarity in a world that we live in now.
• 6:16
  Carla Vijian: Because the truth is that audit is never about sitting in isolation.
• 6:20
  Carla Vijian: And that's why that training is very instrumental to the work that I do now.
• 6:27
  Carla Vijian: So when people hear standard setting, they might think it's abstract or it might be academic.
• 6:33
  Carla Vijian: But in all honesty, if you work in the standard setting role and you speak around with the members of the board, um, the experience is quite the opposite.
• 6:43
  Carla Vijian: Um, before I go on to explain, all views I share is um my personal views and not of the board.
• 6:49
  Carla Vijian: So when it comes to standard setting, um, a lot of the work is about listening to your stakeholders, to regulators, investors, firms, everyone has a different perspective.
• 7:00
  Carla Vijian: And it's about finding the solution that could work globally.
• 7:04
  Carla Vijian: The ISPA code is adopted over 130 jurisdictions.
• 7:08
  Carla Vijian: So, you know, it's not an easy task.
• 7:12
  Carla Vijian: For example, if we take um just last week, I read about a news um about the Northern Lights project in Norway that reached a milestone how you can begin to store um carbon dioxide underground.
• 7:27
  Carla Vijian: And it's an incredible thing if you read about it.
• 7:30
  Carla Vijian: I encourage everyone to Google it and search it.
• 7:32
  Carla Vijian: It is an extraordinary achievement, but with my audit background, it got me thinking, it raised the critical question: how do we know the claims are accurate?
• 7:42
  Carla Vijian: And how do we give investors and public confidence in the numbers that they're sharing?
• 7:48
  Carla Vijian: And this is where standards and ethics come in.
• 7:52
  Carla Vijian: Um, you know, vague claims about what is being published are no longer acceptable.
• 7:58
  Carla Vijian: Um, ethics is the link between what is reported and what the public can trust is being reported.
• 8:05
  Carla Vijian: So, another example I'll give is just this week, um Bloomberg Green reported on the return of debt for policy swaps.
• 8:14
  Carla Vijian: Um, I'm getting a bit technical now, but those who know about these swaps, like these instruments begin um as debt for nature deals, where governments refinance debt and redirect savings into conservation.
• 8:25
  Carla Vijian: Now, that that is a very good initiative.
• 8:29
  Carla Vijian: Um, but they're also being adapted for post-war reconstruction and energy security.
• 8:34
  Carla Vijian: So on paper, it reduces debt burdens and channels savings into specific conservation environmental goals.
• 8:43
  Carla Vijian: In practice, it does raise the question who are these, who are setting these goals?
• 8:48
  Carla Vijian: Um, who are monitoring the savings, whether they're being delivered to the promised outcome, and how transparent are the fees and the reporting when these structures are private and not standardized.
• 8:59
  Carla Vijian: So I'm trying to get at Snit is like why should people care when they read about these news?
• 9:04
  Carla Vijian: It's because it's very important for people to understand that's why billion dollars are being redirected, um, taxpayers' money, um, investors.
• 9:15
  Carla Vijian: You know, it is influenced whether public resources will support conservation, recovery, or even fossil fuels.
• 9:23
  Carla Vijian: Um, it affects sovereignty of external investors or how agencies shape priorities.
• 9:30
  Carla Vijian: So it really tests the credibility of sustainable finance.
• 9:34
  Carla Vijian: And the real question is whether they're structured with transparency and accountability.
• 9:39
  Carla Vijian: And that's where I see the ethics standards come in and play an important role because applied correctly by everyone in the ecosystem, ethics does not block innovation, but it does give credibility.
• 9:51
  Carla Vijian: And I apologize if I've gone quite technical on this.
• 9:54
  Sinead Donovan: No, no, no, no, no, you well, well, well, you have, but that's now down to me to try to unpack it a little bit.
• 9:59
  Sinead Donovan: And and what I take in away from that is first off, I love your description of the audit profession.
• 10:06
  Sinead Donovan: I mean, we we hear about professional skepticism in the audit profession, but I am going to use the tagline now that the audit profession gives us the permission to be nosy.
• 10:16
  Sinead Donovan: And essentially that's what it does.
• 10:18
  Sinead Donovan: It gives us the permission to be curious, to ask the questions, and there is no question that we shouldn't or couldn't ask.
• 10:24
  Sinead Donovan: So I think that's really important to know and for to be, you know, uh something that will attract people to the profession.
• 10:31
  Sinead Donovan: Um moving into the ethics.
• 10:34
  Sinead Donovan: So so from your journey, I know that you know, you were on a couple of comments that got you into the technical um aspect of standard settings and all the rest.
• 10:44
  Sinead Donovan: And you so you move to to New York, you are now in the ethics standard setting.
• 10:50
  Sinead Donovan: And you're quite right, ethics is absolutely the cornerstone of our profession, and it is that bridge to ensure that I guess what we do as a professional um is in the public interest and is done in the right way.
• 11:08
  Sinead Donovan: Critical, critical, critical.
• 11:10
  Sinead Donovan: Can I just say I think we might be doing something right because you're going to tell us a little bit about the Edelman Trust Barometer and how charged accountants have come out on that for a number of years.
• 11:22
  Sinead Donovan: And I think this is really important.
• 11:23
  Sinead Donovan: And and kudos to you and all the the standard setters on charged accountants in the world.
• 11:30
  Carla Vijian: Thank you.
• 11:31
  Carla Vijian: Um, yes, I I did read about the survey that's been done um on you know, accountants remain among the most trusted profession, even in the era that's dominated by misinformation.
• 11:46
  Carla Vijian: And let's not um discount the fact that we're caring more about corporate scandals.
• 11:52
  Carla Vijian: But corporate scandals um that's happening, it doesn't just impact accountants, it impacts everyone in the ecosystem, impacts um all the profession.
• 12:01
  Carla Vijian: This all comes back to one central issue is trust, how the public view our role as accountants, as guardians and financial stewards of um the health, the financial health organization, but also now these days accountants and charter accountants are in roles where they are also managing information that's not purely financial.
• 12:26
  Carla Vijian: So, for example, um what really struck me at the time of the reading of the survey is that um a leading AI expert, um, also voicing a concern, um, not sure if you heard of Jeffrey Hinton.
• 12:39
  Carla Vijian: Um, he's called the godfather of AI.
• 12:41
  Carla Vijian: And he mentioned in the article that AI would most likely make a few people much richer, well make others poorer.
• 12:50
  Carla Vijian: Now, um I do encourage everyone to read the article to get a sense of um what where he's coming from.
• 12:56
  Carla Vijian: What he's saying that he says AI not only is a powerful tool, but it is a force that could destabilize jobs, widen in widen inequality, and create risks that we were not prepared for if we don't have that foresight to deal with some of the risks.
• 13:15
  Carla Vijian: And again, you know, why should the general public care?
• 13:19
  Carla Vijian: Well, the way incentives are structured in technology, we know it's not neutral.
• 13:24
  Carla Vijian: Like if a company uses AI to maximize profit without accountability, society then will bear the cost ultimately.
• 13:33
  Carla Vijian: And this is why ethics and professional skepticism are what stands between innovation that builds trust and innovation that erodes it.
• 13:43
  Carla Vijian: No doubt AI will make us more efficient.
• 13:46
  Carla Vijian: Um, we've seen how capable these platforms and what they can do, but it really doesn't solve a deeper question of integrity and work or even equal opportunity.
• 13:59
  Sinead Donovan: And that's why I and I'm sorry to interrupt there, but but but what is your role in that, in kind of monitoring or setting the guidelines or standards that we as accountants must do when interacting with AI and the ethic, ethical guidelines around that?
• 14:19
  Carla Vijian: Well, the iceberg did um issue um pronouncements that deal with the use of technology um for um professional accountants in business and in public practice.
• 14:32
  Carla Vijian: So it's applicable to everyone.
• 14:34
  Carla Vijian: Um it is a set of guidelines at a principle base, it is not meant to be prescriptive, but it's also a framework that forces us to think about whether the risk that we're dealing with and in practice, we may not be as self-aware when you're busy carrying out a task or a function.
• 14:56
  Carla Vijian: Sometimes you may not even be aware that you've you're coming across an ethical dilemma that that require a little bit more full response before you take any action.
• 15:09
  Carla Vijian: And this is where uh the the code, the standards can come in and create the self-awareness before anyone undertakes a certain action, especially a use of AI.
• 15:22
  Sinead Donovan: Okay.
• 15:22
  Sinead Donovan: Um forgive me, I'm trying to keep up with with all this, but it in general, AI is a huge opportunity for for everybody in the world and certainly for us as a profession, and I think it's going to open huge doors.
• 15:38
  Sinead Donovan: But I think what you're saying is that we do need to be very mindful and careful as to how we use it and I guess how much how much trust we place in it.
• 15:48
  Sinead Donovan: Is is that right?
• 15:49
  Sinead Donovan: Do we trust AI?
• 15:51
  Carla Vijian: Um, we we can place um I wish I wouldn't say we trust AI.
• 15:58
  Carla Vijian: We need AI is a tool that we can employ to carry out a certain function and task.
• 16:03
  Carla Vijian: Um, I wouldn't say that as a profession, we can ultimately place trust in a tool to be able to come up with um decisions that uh best in a public interest.
• 16:18
  Carla Vijian: That is a very different element.
• 16:20
  Carla Vijian: I don't think you can marry the two ideas together.
• 16:23
  Carla Vijian: Um, trust involves.
• 16:25
  Sinead Donovan: But hence why, hence why AI will never take our jobs, because it is going to need us to absolutely interpret it and ensure that it is doing and saying the right things.
• 16:36
  Carla Vijian: Absolutely.
• 16:37
  Carla Vijian: Absolutely.
• 16:37
  Carla Vijian: Even when we had, I remember um um during university stays when we were exposed to Excel spreadsheet, you could do all these amazing formulas and calculation, we still do, you know, run tests behind the scenes.
• 16:52
  Carla Vijian: We don't put full reliance on Excel spreadsheet giving the answer.
• 16:56
  Carla Vijian: So why would why would put full reliance on a tool without sense checking that whatever decisions or output has um is reliable, it's it's it's um the data is not um uh there's integrity in the data.
• 17:15
  Carla Vijian: Um that's that's what I'm trying to get at.
• 17:18
  Sinead Donovan: Great, great.
• 17:19
  Sinead Donovan: Um, touching a little bit on on the role that you you currently are in, you say there's a lot of stakeholders that you obviously engage in, the the the firms, the regulators, um, I'm I'm guessing even business uh business users of of of of account accountants.
• 17:36
  Sinead Donovan: Um regulation is critical for our profession.
• 17:43
  Sinead Donovan: Um however the getting the balance right is is is is is critical as well.
• 17:51
  Sinead Donovan: Globally, do you think we have got that balance right?
• 17:55
  Sinead Donovan: Or is there a way that we can, I guess, marry the standards, not the standards, but the impact of the regulators globally?
• 18:03
  Sinead Donovan: Maybe a question, maybe a bit of a cheeky question I'm asking you, but I I guess what I'm trying to say is how can we as a profession interact most effectively with our regulators?
• 18:17
  Carla Vijian: I think there are many different ways.
• 18:19
  Carla Vijian: And um, my personal view is um having a close connection or close conversation with regulators, a frequent one and a frequent cadence to understand what are the imperatives and what are the issues that the profession is facing.
• 18:37
  Carla Vijian: As a profession, we cannot think that we can work in silo, issue standards and you know guidelines, and everything will work as it is.
• 18:48
  Carla Vijian: There is a lot of other players with an ecosystem and regulators and investors at the same time.
• 18:56
  Carla Vijian: Because ultimately, for example, if you use a financial statement, the one that it's most concerned with will be investors, those who you know, provide their funds who might be funneling their retirement fund into a particular organization hoping for a return, um, a nice return when they're close to retirement age.
• 19:18
  Carla Vijian: So we there is a lot of conversation to be had.
• 19:24
  Carla Vijian: Um, there is a lot of work to be done.
• 19:28
  Carla Vijian: I think we're moving at a speed um in the current times where there is a great expectation in managing misinformation and how the profession can play an equal role as others within the ecosystem to be able to give investors and the public the trust that they they need um in this current economy.
• 19:56
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, I think I think I think you've nailed it there.
• 19:58
  Sinead Donovan: I mean, I think essentially we are part of a wider ecosystem and we need to be absolutely mindful of that and keep the connections, the relationships, and the interactions up with all of those um players with within the system.
• 20:11
  Sinead Donovan: Carla, I'm gonna flip it a bit.
• 20:13
  Sinead Donovan: Um I know you are a kindred spirit and love running and endurance um events.
• 20:21
  Sinead Donovan: Tell me a little bit about your uh love affair with Marathon Runnings.
• 20:27
  Carla Vijian: Well, um, I love to talk about it.
• 20:29
  Carla Vijian: It is my latest hobby, um, if you could call it that.
• 20:33
  Carla Vijian: Um it's something that I picked up um with great more passion um during COVID.
• 20:39
  Carla Vijian: It was one of the ways that um I employed to deal with everything that was going around me.
• 20:46
  Carla Vijian: Um I was based in New York at that time um on lockdown, away from family and friends, um, not having certainty when I'll be able to see them again and um be able to visit them and give them hugs.
• 20:59
  Carla Vijian: So running um was was uh a religion to me back then.
• 21:05
  Carla Vijian: Um and training for the marathon, I did my first one last year for New York, and training for it, um it gave me much more insight into the word discipline and resilience.
• 21:18
  Carla Vijian: You do not run 42 kilometers at once.
• 21:20
  Carla Vijian: You you you actually run one at a time, and that's how I see you know how it pans out in other areas of my life, such as my career and the projects that the progress does come from a lot of persistence and not perfection.
• 21:36
  Carla Vijian: I have to be honest, like some days I do not feel like training, but I do show up anyway, and that habit of consistency is really something that you know sustains everyone in their life, in professional life and personal life.
• 21:51
  Carla Vijian: And if I may share, the truth is like there is no shortcut.
• 21:55
  Carla Vijian: A marathon will humble you, it will teach you that without that hard work, you may not be able to cross that finishing line because at 42 kilometers, you don't know what physically your body will succumb to.
• 22:10
  Carla Vijian: Um, you have the best field plan, you might train really well.
• 22:15
  Carla Vijian: On that day, when it comes to crossing the finishing line, you learn a lot about yourself.
• 22:21
  Carla Vijian: And I see marathon running as something you do without expectation of a validation of accolade because when you cross that line, they usually at the marathon event you have people cheering, but when you're running that 42 kilometers non-stop, um, it is pretty much mine over matter.
• 22:42
  Carla Vijian: It's you showing for yourself and you telling yourself you can do it.
• 22:46
  Carla Vijian: And it is not for someone who did it for the first time last year, um, that was really insightful.
• 22:54
  Carla Vijian: It I learned a lot myself through that process.
• 22:57
  Carla Vijian: Um, crossing the finishing line was just cherry on top, but the training and running that 42 kilometers by myself, for myself, was was an amazing feeling, and I would recommend anyone to try it because uh endurance athletes really do have a certain character or quality to them that make them persist through that um distance and the pain sometimes, um, yeah, and get you to go.
• 23:30
  Carla Vijian: And you're an endurance athlete yourself, so you know what pain feels like.
• 23:36
  Sinead Donovan: Yes, well, congratulations on on that achievement.
• 23:39
  Sinead Donovan: And you're so right, it it kind of mirrors an awful lot of of life and life goals and life aims and and the hard work that you need to do to get those aims.
• 23:48
  Sinead Donovan: Um, Carla, coming coming to the end of the discussion, and thank you so much for for sharing all of the insights with with you.
• 23:56
  Sinead Donovan: I'm keen to try and leave.
• 23:58
  Sinead Donovan: Um, I'm a big believer in in the next gen, the next gen of accountants, the next gen of leaders.
• 24:05
  Sinead Donovan: Um what what message would you say to them um about about about anything really?
• 24:12
  Sinead Donovan: I mean, we live in slightly uncertain times at the moment um in the profession.
• 24:17
  Sinead Donovan: We've got some real great opportunities, as we said, coming our way with AI.
• 24:22
  Sinead Donovan: What would be your overarching message to to anyone considering coming into the profession?
• 24:29
  Carla Vijian: I have a lot to share, but I'll just uh distill it into three anchors.
• 24:33
  Carla Vijian: Um, and I hope that it resonates with someone if they're listening to this podcast.
• 24:38
  Carla Vijian: Is number one, curiosity as a discipline.
• 24:42
  Carla Vijian: Curiosity has to be more than just your interests, it is your life.
• 24:46
  Carla Vijian: It's a habit of questioning, looking past the obvious and refusing to accept status quo.
• 24:52
  Carla Vijian: I think that really kept me growing.
• 24:56
  Carla Vijian: And it it still keeps me growing.
• 24:58
  Carla Vijian: Um, it is a discipline because you have to practice it every day, even if it's easier not to.
• 25:03
  Carla Vijian: Um, the second one would be courage over convenience.
• 25:08
  Carla Vijian: Um, a lot of leaders left a deepest mark on me, were not always um, were always the ones that didn't say the most popular things.
• 25:17
  Carla Vijian: They were always the one making a difficult call and standing by it.
• 25:21
  Carla Vijian: And it really means doing the work that no one really would thank you for and hold a line when no one's looking, you know, or taking the slower, harder path.
• 25:31
  Carla Vijian: It's really is really convenient, but that is really defining, especially um as you work through your career and in life.
• 25:41
  Carla Vijian: And the last thing I would share is um purpose with patience, like real progress really takes time.
• 25:48
  Carla Vijian: And running the marathon really taught me that you never finish a marathon in a single stride.
• 25:54
  Carla Vijian: Like you have to show up, you repeat, you endure, you keep going.
• 25:58
  Carla Vijian: And that rhythm of persistence, whether in sport or professional life, really builds, well, for me anyway, the strength that no, no other shortcut will ever will.
• 26:10
  Sinead Donovan: I love that.
• 26:10
  Sinead Donovan: And I am gonna package that as the three C's, if I may.
• 26:14
  Sinead Donovan: So curiosity, courage, and consistency.
• 26:18
  Sinead Donovan: And I think they are three really strong messages to leave, um, to leave uh this episode with.
• 26:24
  Sinead Donovan: Carla, thank you so much.
• 26:25
  Sinead Donovan: Best of luck with all the marathons you have planned.
• 26:28
  Sinead Donovan: Um, I know you will be a success.
• 26:30
  Sinead Donovan: And um, yeah, thank you for your time today.
• 26:34
  Carla Vijian: No, thank you so much.
• 26:35
  Carla Vijian: Thank you for having me.
• 26:37
  Sinead Donovan: And thank you to all our listeners.
• 26:39
  Sinead Donovan: I hope you've enjoyed this session, and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.
• 26:45
  Sinead Donovan: Cheers.