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Post Game for the Black Panther 2 : Wakanda Forever · WDYM What Do You Mean?

0:00
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0:54
SPEAKER_05: This episode of the WDYM will have spoilers for Black Panther 2 Uconda forever.
1:29
SPEAKER_05: And welcome to another episode of the WDYM The What He Mean podcast.
1:33
SPEAKER_05: I'm your host, Michael Gillespie, and guys, hope everything is well.
1:35
SPEAKER_05: Hope everything is good with you, as it is with me.
1:38
SPEAKER_05: This episode is the post-game of Black Panther 2 Wakanda Forever.
1:44
SPEAKER_05: I did about roughly a month, month and a half ago.
1:48
SPEAKER_05: I did the pregame before I saw the movie about my thoughts of the movie, what I'm hoping that the movie's going to be, and all that stuff.
1:58
SPEAKER_05: So went to go see it.
2:01
SPEAKER_05: And I I get I left the theater 7 out of 10.
2:06
SPEAKER_05: 7 out of 10 is like, you know, it was okay.
2:08
SPEAKER_05: There was a couple silly things in there and everything.
2:11
SPEAKER_05: But uh before before I got to the theater experience, I'm a soundtrack guy, right?
2:16
SPEAKER_05: So, or a score guy, so to speak.
2:18
SPEAKER_05: I want to hear the background music.
2:20
SPEAKER_05: What is it called?
2:20
SPEAKER_05: What's the names of it?
2:22
SPEAKER_05: And I scroll through it and I see song 26.
2:26
SPEAKER_05: Song 26 is called T'Challa.
2:31
SPEAKER_05: So I'm like, is Marvel swerving me?
2:34
SPEAKER_05: Is Marvel swerving me?
2:36
SPEAKER_05: Let me think like T'Challa is because again, if you don't know the idea, is that um because Chadwick Bozeman's death in 2020, they decided to not put T'Challa, the Black Panther, in the movie.
2:52
SPEAKER_05: But yet, Song 26 says T'Challa.
2:54
SPEAKER_05: So I'm thinking there's a possibility that T'Challa is in this movie alive.
3:01
SPEAKER_05: Because let's see how the music goes.
3:06
SPEAKER_05: You hear the like momentum.
3:08
SPEAKER_05: Like, okay, well, it's not sad.
3:12
SPEAKER_05: It's not, it feels like something inspiring, something that's coming up, right?
3:20
SPEAKER_05: So I'm like, Disney swerve me because I think T'Challa is gonna be in this movie.
3:27
SPEAKER_05: And I'm gonna finish it because this is such a great sound.
3:36
SPEAKER_05: I love scores.
3:37
SPEAKER_05: I love scores to movies.
3:39
SPEAKER_05: If it's a good score, if I am watching a movie and I listen to it, like, oh my god, this sounds great.
3:45
SPEAKER_05: So, yeah.
3:47
SPEAKER_05: So um, I see that on the back, song 26.
3:49
SPEAKER_05: I'm like, okay, okay.
3:52
SPEAKER_05: To me, that's a possibility.
3:54
SPEAKER_05: There's a possibility that T'Challa's in this.
3:57
SPEAKER_05: It's like, okay.
3:57
SPEAKER_05: So I go to the movie, watch the movie, and again, like I said in the beginning, there's spoilers for this.
4:03
SPEAKER_05: There's spoilers for this movie.
4:05
SPEAKER_05: And um, the first five minutes, we're treated to T'Challa's death.
4:11
SPEAKER_05: And again, when it comes to this type of storytelling, it's like the reason.
4:17
SPEAKER_05: There's no reason.
4:18
SPEAKER_05: He comes in like, oh, oh, he's dying.
4:21
SPEAKER_05: Okay, well, yeah, now he's dead.
4:23
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
4:24
SPEAKER_05: First five minutes, we had to suffer through this again.
4:27
SPEAKER_05: It's like, okay, I'm gonna give it a shot.
4:30
SPEAKER_05: I understand, I guess I understand the situation.
4:33
SPEAKER_05: Stupid as it may sound, but okay.
4:37
SPEAKER_05: So, all right, fine.
4:38
SPEAKER_05: Well, uh what happens?
4:41
SPEAKER_05: He dies of some kind of mystery virus.
4:43
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
4:44
SPEAKER_05: Superhero dies mystery virus.
4:48
SPEAKER_05: Okay, I'm supposed uh I guess so.
4:52
SPEAKER_05: Uh funeral, everything.
4:56
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
4:56
SPEAKER_05: So the first five minutes we get death.
4:59
SPEAKER_05: Like, all right.
5:01
SPEAKER_05: Like he already set the mood for the movie.
5:03
SPEAKER_05: Like, okay, this is this is something else, right?
5:06
SPEAKER_05: And then again, spoilers for the movie, eventually midway through, we have Queen Ramonda's death.
5:14
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
5:16
SPEAKER_05: Was this this was completely unnecessary.
5:19
SPEAKER_05: But I digress.
5:20
SPEAKER_05: Like, what's what's going on?
5:22
SPEAKER_05: Why are we having so much tragedy and death plus the idea of Chadwick Bozeman, you know, using his image in some of the pictures, and now on top of that, we're killing uh Queen Ramonda.
5:34
SPEAKER_05: It's like okay.
5:38
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
5:39
SPEAKER_05: So I'm like, alright.
5:40
SPEAKER_05: So the movie ends, eventually, movie ends.
5:43
SPEAKER_05: We get Surya's Black Panther, which is fine with me.
5:46
SPEAKER_05: That's that's that's acceptable because guess what?
5:48
SPEAKER_05: That's comic accurate.
5:49
SPEAKER_05: I'm fine with that because it happened in the books.
5:52
SPEAKER_05: Perfectly fine with that.
5:54
SPEAKER_05: And then we find out in the end, um him as an Tinchala, and Nakia, the Wakanda spy, had a child during the five before the five-year blip, and now he's five years old, living in in Haiti or somewhere in there, named Tucson.
6:16
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
6:16
SPEAKER_05: Didn't happen in the comic books.
6:19
SPEAKER_05: But he goes by Tusan, but he's his his Wokanda name is T'Chala.
6:24
SPEAKER_05: So that's why Song 26 is named T'Challa.
6:27
SPEAKER_05: I was like, okay.
6:36
SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
6:37
SPEAKER_05: And then so I left the theater 7 out of 10.
6:39
SPEAKER_05: So I'm like, okay.
6:42
SPEAKER_05: And then I'm like, let me go talk to some of my friends.
6:46
SPEAKER_05: We got this uh Facebook group called Full Frontal Nerdity.
6:48
SPEAKER_05: We're always talking about, excuse me, we always talk about nerdy stuff.
6:52
SPEAKER_05: So it's like, how'd you feel about the film?
6:54
SPEAKER_05: How'd you feel about the film?
6:55
SPEAKER_05: And they're like, oh, it was great.
6:56
SPEAKER_05: It was such a great uh, you know, respect to Chadwick Bozeman, da da da da da.
7:00
SPEAKER_05: And I'm gonna get into that later.
7:02
SPEAKER_05: I'll get into that later, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_05: But then I'm thinking to myself, what kind of tribute do we have for someone like that, right?
7:12
SPEAKER_05: And I don't know.
7:15
SPEAKER_05: I just basically that seven out of ten turned into a five out of ten.
7:21
SPEAKER_05: So I'm like, let me, let me, let me say, okay.
7:23
SPEAKER_05: They're not going to agree with me, my f in the my opinions of this clearly, because we're going back and forth, and I'm like, this just doesn't feel right to me.
7:33
SPEAKER_05: This doesn't feel right to me, just based on the basic principles, right?
7:39
SPEAKER_05: Let's look at the fact that Black Panther One made$1.3 billion.
7:46
SPEAKER_05: Right?
7:47
SPEAKER_05: And this movie, as of today, made$767 million.
7:51
SPEAKER_05: So roughly a little bit over half, right?
7:54
SPEAKER_05: I'm not doing the math, it's roughly over 50%.
7:57
SPEAKER_05: And maybe that was what their plan was.
8:00
SPEAKER_05: Like understandably, that we know we don't have our lead star that this movie might suffer, but we're apparently they're okay with it.
8:08
SPEAKER_05: And it doesn't make sense to me.
8:10
SPEAKER_05: It doesn't make sense to me because this has never happened in comic book movies before.
8:16
SPEAKER_05: Right?
8:17
SPEAKER_05: We have never had a situation where a lead character dies and they don't replace him, right?
8:24
SPEAKER_05: Just to think about this.
8:26
SPEAKER_05: Uh the same, I think the same year we've had or 2022, I think Spider-Man came out and we had three different Spider-Mans on there.
8:35
SPEAKER_05: Right?
8:36
SPEAKER_05: Nobody blinked, nobody batted an eye.
8:38
SPEAKER_05: They're like, okay, cool.
8:39
SPEAKER_05: There's three versions of Peter Parker.
8:41
SPEAKER_05: Cool.
8:42
SPEAKER_05: We've had two versions of Hulk, Edward Norton and Mark Ruffalo.
8:47
SPEAKER_05: Nobody bats an eye.
8:49
SPEAKER_05: Everybody's cool.
8:50
SPEAKER_05: DC.
8:52
SPEAKER_05: We've had a plethora of Superman's and Batman's.
8:56
SPEAKER_05: Nobody bats an eye.
8:59
SPEAKER_05: So the question is, why was T'Challa, who made 1.3 billion, shelf?
9:08
SPEAKER_05: Why do we shelf T'Challa?
9:12
SPEAKER_05: Oh, because you know Chadwick Bozeman played the well the movie the the role so well.
9:16
SPEAKER_05: And I think that's the most biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life.
9:20
SPEAKER_05: While, yes, I do think Chadwick Bozeman did a phenomenal job as Black Panther.
9:26
SPEAKER_05: Phenomenal job as Black Panther.
9:29
SPEAKER_05: Black Panther means something more to the Black Panther fans that seen that knew the Black Panther before 2018.
9:38
SPEAKER_05: Alright.
9:38
SPEAKER_05: Mind you that Black Panther started in 1966.
9:42
SPEAKER_05: And to finally see Black Panther on the screen as a young person back in 1966 during the Civil War era where things was pretty much messed up.
9:52
SPEAKER_05: To finally see the Black Panther on the screen and to take him away because of this actor who, you know, who ha who tragically passed away is not fair to the fans of Black Panther.
10:06
SPEAKER_05: Just imagine having a Hulk movie without Bruce Banner.
10:11
SPEAKER_05: It doesn't make sense.
10:13
SPEAKER_05: Who's watching that?
10:15
SPEAKER_05: A Captain American movie without Captain America.
10:20
SPEAKER_05: Who does that?
10:22
SPEAKER_05: Make it make sense.
10:24
SPEAKER_05: That's what we're asking.
10:25
SPEAKER_05: Now again, I said Shuri being the lead, there's no problem with that, because it happens, it happens in the comic book.
10:32
SPEAKER_05: And that's cool.
10:33
SPEAKER_05: I don't mind that at all.
10:35
SPEAKER_05: But to replace to shelf T'Challa, to shelf T'Challa is a travesty.
10:44
SPEAKER_05: And I would hope Marvel would think of that.
10:46
SPEAKER_05: But uh I'm gonna play some clips of Ryan Kugler talking and and all this stuff, and um you know that the gravitas or the importance of T'Challa T'Challa is very important, right?
11:03
SPEAKER_05: So again, rewind rewind your mindset to 2018 where Black Panther comes out, and then think about 2020 when the black BLM stuff was happening and what was happening then.
11:16
SPEAKER_05: Let me remind you that people, black people, were suffering, shoot, getting shot for little to little to nothing.
11:24
SPEAKER_05: So having the a superhero that looks like them is important, it's very important to not see a black person in a movie that's not a thug or not typical trope stuff, and to finally have a a version, a black person on the screen with that's excellent, right?
11:48
SPEAKER_05: We need that.
11:49
SPEAKER_05: So first clip is gonna be the the success of Black Panther One and and what it did for people who saw that movie.
11:58
SPEAKER_10: I'm thinking of the time I saw Black Panther at the Magic Johnson Theater in Harlem and the crowd cheering and yelling at the screen.
12:06
SPEAKER_10: The show in the audience rivaled the show on screen.
12:10
SPEAKER_10: I'm thinking of Victor Oledepo competing in the dunk contest on All-Star Weekend, wearing a Black Panther mask.
12:18
SPEAKER_10: Black Panther wasn't just a film, it was a phenomenon.
12:26
SPEAKER_10: But when Black Panther's lead actor Chadwick Bozeman passed two years later, the phenomenon became a tragedy.
12:33
SPEAKER_10: Chad was one of the great actors of our generation, and those of us who knew him understood that his ambitions extended well beyond that.
12:41
SPEAKER_10: It would always be a challenge to follow up Black Panther.
12:44
SPEAKER_10: But when Chad transitioned, the labor of making a sequel to Black Panther went from merely formidable to Herculean.
12:53
SPEAKER_05: 1000% agree with that statement.
12:55
SPEAKER_05: Because of Tadrick Bozeman's impact for the Black Panther, if once this happened, yeah, I I I get it.
13:05
SPEAKER_05: I get it, I understand it, that this is gonna be a hurdle that's not gonna be easily climbed.
13:14
SPEAKER_05: And Marvel should have, my opinion, Marvel should have took their time with this one and be like, hey, let's sit down and think about this.
13:21
SPEAKER_05: And Ryan Kugler, he had um, that's he was the director slash writer for the movie.
13:27
SPEAKER_05: He had a he had an uphill climb, no doubt about it.
13:30
SPEAKER_05: He had an uphill climb to make this movie, right?
13:33
SPEAKER_05: And um, yeah.
13:37
SPEAKER_05: Next clip.
13:38
SPEAKER_10: We hit a grand slam.
13:40
SPEAKER_10: Now we gotta run it back.
13:41
SPEAKER_10: Did you want to run it back?
13:42
SPEAKER_10: Did you know you was doing a sequel?
13:43
SPEAKER_10: Like, what where where was it in your head?
13:45
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I did, man.
13:46
SPEAKER_06: Like um, I knew I wanted to make another one.
13:49
SPEAKER_06: And, you know, when I was doing my deep dive, you know, all of his stories, there were like a few characters that he would interact with.
13:56
SPEAKER_06: I thought, man, this is just like this, this would be awesome.
13:59
SPEAKER_06: And I knew that like it would be Claw and Kilmanger for the first one, but Name Warren was like all over these books, and it was always really interesting.
14:05
SPEAKER_06: Right.
14:06
SPEAKER_06: Um, so we would talk about, we would say, man, like, could we ever do Name Moore?
14:10
SPEAKER_06: And they had like contractual things going on with him as a character at the time.
14:13
SPEAKER_06: It was like something like a free up down the road.
14:15
SPEAKER_06: But it was something that like uh if we ran it back, it would be about him and Name War, and we would introduce um Marvel's Atlantis to the fold.
14:23
SPEAKER_06: And this is before Aquaman came out, and and you know, like this was before a lot of things, but we would talk about it from time to time.
14:31
SPEAKER_06: So I was always excited to come back knowing what it was.
14:35
SPEAKER_06: And that that excited me quite a bit.
14:37
SPEAKER_06: And in the second script was like, you know, it was like a T'Challa vehicle.
14:42
SPEAKER_06: It was like, okay, we set the world up.
14:44
SPEAKER_06: Now we're gonna like do it the deepest dive into this guy that you could imagine, you know what I mean?
14:50
SPEAKER_06: And and that was what excited me even more, because I knew Chad better as a performer and as a I knew him better as a guy, you know, so I feel like I had a better attack on T'Challa as a character after making that first film.
15:02
SPEAKER_06: But yeah, I got into writing that thing immediately.
15:05
SPEAKER_10: When you say media, do you mean like so film comes out?
15:08
SPEAKER_10: Like when do you start taking notes for yourself?
15:11
SPEAKER_06: I was thinking about Wakana and Atlantis often.
15:15
SPEAKER_06: Like before we finish the movie, I would think about it.
15:18
SPEAKER_06: And we had our first like real meeting.
15:21
SPEAKER_06: I think it was in 2018.
15:23
SPEAKER_06: It was like late 2018, I want to say.
15:27
SPEAKER_05: So at this point, he's finished the script, and the original script was a a um a story about uh T'Challa and his son dealing with a five-year gap because of the blip.
15:48
SPEAKER_05: He got blipped, turned to dust, comes back, and comes to find out his son is five years old.
15:52
SPEAKER_05: And that story would have took place opposed to what we got in Black Panther 2 or kind of forever.
15:59
SPEAKER_05: So the question is again, and everybody's like, it was a great way to honor Chadwick Bozeman.
16:05
SPEAKER_05: Why didn't we keep the story the same?
16:07
SPEAKER_05: I don't I don't I don't say if you're gonna honor the man, right?
16:12
SPEAKER_05: Honor the man with the script that you wrote for this man, why didn't you go with that script?
16:19
SPEAKER_05: I mean, you wrote it for the man, and you're you're saying this is what you honored.
16:23
SPEAKER_05: This isn't that the perfect way to honor him.
16:25
SPEAKER_05: Like this was meant for Chad, and I, you know, I respect Chad, love Chad, and this is the story that I wanted to tell with Chad in mind, as opposed to rewriting a script that had a whole bunch of holes in it.
16:37
SPEAKER_05: That had a whole bunch of plot holes that was terri that made the movie not as good as it should have been.
16:42
SPEAKER_05: We go on, and the next one is where you could hear Ryan Kugler's emotional pain for Chad Bozeman's death.
16:53
SPEAKER_06: Like I had like in my vision journals that I wanted to do this role if they ever did it, and I felt like I could do it.
16:58
SPEAKER_06: Like it was he was the Charlie before Civil War in a way, you know what I'm saying, in his mind.
17:04
SPEAKER_06: And I'm sure it's a lot of actors out there like that, but they wasn't Chad, you know what I'm saying?
17:09
SPEAKER_06: So for us, he was like a trailblazer, right?
17:14
SPEAKER_06: In a in a pace car, and he made the shit real.
17:19
SPEAKER_06: And everybody else kind of fell in line.
17:28
SPEAKER_10: So you're writing the sequel.
17:29
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
17:30
SPEAKER_10: Um, you already see a picture in him.
17:31
SPEAKER_10: You're thinking about him as you write it.
17:34
SPEAKER_10: Uh where where were you in the screen?
17:37
SPEAKER_06: Like, you know.
17:39
SPEAKER_10: Where were you in the script when you found out he passed?
17:43
SPEAKER_06: I I just finished it, man.
17:45
SPEAKER_06: I my last conversation with him was calling him and asking him if he wanted to read it before I uh got notes from the studio.
17:51
SPEAKER_06: That was the last time we spoke.
17:53
SPEAKER_06: And yeah, so I you know, he he he passed maybe a couple weeks after I finished.
17:57
SPEAKER_10: What'd you say when you asked?
18:01
SPEAKER_06: Man, he gonna uh give me a sec.
18:27
SPEAKER_05: From the death, and I get that, right?
18:29
SPEAKER_05: Um no one can experience what what he experienced and how he tr he personally feels about that, right?
18:37
SPEAKER_05: So the thing is, and this is where me may have a disagreement with me or disagree with my opinions, at this point the whole crew should have got counseling for this.
18:50
SPEAKER_05: Because if you go to work every day and you are still emotionally compromised because of something happened at work, then you need to be you need to seek counseling at this point because again, your overall job is to make a movie.
19:10
SPEAKER_05: Your overall job is to make a movie, and because of the situation at hand, you're still emotionally compromised.
19:18
SPEAKER_05: And again, these these movies are made with the fans in mind, the fans of Black Panther, the fans of T'Challa.
19:28
SPEAKER_05: And the decisions made by Ryan Kugler by the executive producer Nate Moore has basically caused a division with the Black Panther fans of 2018 on and 2018 prior.
19:45
SPEAKER_05: And those excuse me that should have been thought of prior to them developing the movie further.
19:58
SPEAKER_05: But it wasn't.
20:00
SPEAKER_05: So Okay, so next is um this interview we had with Nate Moore with the producer of or the executive producer of Black Panther 2.
20:08
SPEAKER_05: Um, when asking about the recast, the idea of a recast, he gave a um an alarming answer to the idea of recast.
20:26
SPEAKER_07: And what is it like having to balance uh loyalty to a fan base and to a performer as regal and elegant as Chad Bozeman, yeah, along with the future of that franchise, that character, and of O'Connor?
20:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
20:43
SPEAKER_04: Uh it's a great question.
20:45
SPEAKER_04: I will say the chances that you see T'Challa in our.
20:53
SPEAKER_04: I'm not I'm not hedging my bets, I'm being quite honest.
20:56
SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
20:57
SPEAKER_04: T''Challa is you will not see T'Challa in the MCU 616 universe.
21:04
SPEAKER_04: We could we couldn't do it.
21:05
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I will say when Chad passed, it was a real conversation we had with Googler about what do we do.
21:12
SPEAKER_04: And it was a fast conversation.
21:13
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't weeks, it was minutes of we have to figure out how to move this franchise on without that character.
21:20
SPEAKER_04: Because I think we all feel so much of T'Challa in the MCU on the screen, not in comics, right?
21:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, is tied to Chadwick's performance, is is what he brought to that role both on and off screen, I would argue.
21:35
SPEAKER_04: So, as hard as it is narratively to figure out what to do, because it's a big it's a big hole, um uh at no point did we consider recasting it.
21:46
SPEAKER_04: So so the so the challenge for Black Panther Wucana forever is telling a story without T'Chama.
21:54
SPEAKER_04: And I think it's a challenge we're up for, and obviously we're in the middle of it.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: And and we're figuring it out, and it's and so far, I think what we're getting is is great, but the challenge of the movie, I think, is to entertain people.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: But there will be a level of I think catharsis and people coming back to this universe without that guy, because that guy and that universe to me are one and the same.
22:19
SPEAKER_04: So, as filmmakers and storytellers, you have to figure out how people are gonna feel going into your movie and what you want that movie to say about that guy who's not gonna be in your movie.
22:30
SPEAKER_05: So and this is what I say to that.
22:52
SPEAKER_05: Who hasn't made a bad decision?
22:55
SPEAKER_05: Within minutes.
22:56
SPEAKER_05: Within minutes, not that's what this is what they said.
22:59
SPEAKER_05: Within minutes.
23:01
SPEAKER_05: Have you ever gone to, hey man, what do you want for pe what do you want for dinner today?
23:05
SPEAKER_05: Pizza.
23:05
SPEAKER_05: Oh, great.
23:06
SPEAKER_05: What do you want?
23:06
SPEAKER_05: Little Caesars.
23:07
SPEAKER_05: That sounds good.
23:08
SPEAKER_05: Within minutes, you should be like, wait a minute.
23:10
SPEAKER_05: You know, Marcos is right down the street.
23:12
SPEAKER_05: Right?
23:13
SPEAKER_05: Within minutes, it's so insulting to these executive people, these high-up people, these people are in the higher positions to make a decision based on a 2018 audience, right?
23:29
SPEAKER_05: Again, 1966.
23:31
SPEAKER_05: There is no consideration for people back then from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, who love T'Challa not to consider bringing T'Chala back.
23:42
SPEAKER_05: Again, make it make sense.
23:45
SPEAKER_05: Make it make sense.
23:46
SPEAKER_05: This has never happened in movies before, but now we're doing things like this.
23:51
SPEAKER_05: And don't let this and and I I just I don't want it to be a race thing, but how can you not perceive it as a race thing?
23:58
SPEAKER_05: Again, this movie has made 1.3 billion.
24:02
SPEAKER_05: One of the highest single superstar movie superstar, superhero movies, and it's not an Avengers movie where there's multiple heroes.
24:10
SPEAKER_05: One single hero made 1.3 billion, and you want to shelf them within minutes.
24:16
SPEAKER_05: That is crazy and um unheard of to do that.
24:20
SPEAKER_05: Then, you know, you got Ryan Kugler putting in reality.
24:31
SPEAKER_10: Um, it was more than that.
24:32
SPEAKER_10: You just made the point about how if it if if if there wasn't some real feel in the family, movie doesn't work.
24:39
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
24:40
SPEAKER_10: And so I I I just want you to just talk a little bit about whether you even considered the possibility of recasting a T'Challa.
24:50
SPEAKER_10: What that would have meant, yeah, to ask an actor to come in uh uh to to fill that role, which as you described is a little bit more than a a lot more than just uh the role as a lead actor.
25:01
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's a great question, man.
25:03
SPEAKER_06: I mean, like you consider uh everything, like you know, like when something like that happens, like it's it's like I was like, oh I don't know if I don't think I can come back and make another one, I don't think I can do this, like I don't think there should be another one, you know what I mean?
25:16
SPEAKER_06: You get you go through all like the you go through all of the extremes, I would say, and and yeah, for me to say that like we consider recashing as an option is like that's a complicated thing to even say because like with these movies just like my job as a as a director, you know.
25:43
SPEAKER_06: I don't think people fully appreciate any job that's not their own.
25:47
SPEAKER_10: Right.
25:48
SPEAKER_06: Like the the truth day-to-day of my job is like you know, several hundred days of long days of getting other professionals to believe in ideas that I find truthful.
26:04
SPEAKER_06: You know what I'm saying?
26:05
SPEAKER_06: Like that's that's that's what my what my job is.
26:08
SPEAKER_06: I I have to believe in something enough to go convince other professionals to believe in it as well for an extended period of time.
26:19
SPEAKER_06: And the moment that I stop believing in what I'm doing, whatever end product that I'm putting out is cooked, like it's done.
26:27
SPEAKER_06: It has to be truthful for me.
26:29
SPEAKER_06: And if there's any element of nope for me, like you know what I'm saying, like in the process, it's my job to weed that out so that I have a fighting chance of of putting something out in front of the audience that the audience can believe and not be taken out of for two hours.
26:44
SPEAKER_06: You know what I'm you know what I'm saying?
26:45
SPEAKER_06: While they eating their popcorn and and next to strangers or or while they at the house and their kids is doing X, Y, and Z, they have to believe in some kernel of the truth that's happening on that screen.
26:55
SPEAKER_06: You know what I'm saying?
26:56
SPEAKER_06: And my truth is the child was gone from the physical sense.
27:02
SPEAKER_06: He wasn't walking through that door.
27:04
SPEAKER_06: And in the world that we created, over the years, he was the God.
27:11
SPEAKER_06: And for somebody else to be him, you know what I mean?
27:15
SPEAKER_06: For us in the in the world that we created, we wouldn't have believed it.
27:19
SPEAKER_06: No matter how good the actor was, no matter how, you know what I'm saying, it just it w it would have been lacking the necessary truth for us to do a good job.
27:29
SPEAKER_06: And the truth, the truth is the will that we pull from as artists.
27:34
SPEAKER_06: You know, our truth was our truth was lost.
27:38
SPEAKER_06: You know, which is a fact of life.
27:43
SPEAKER_06: It's the it's the gift and the curse of life.
27:47
SPEAKER_05: So this this this um this narrow-minded thinking that no other black actor could could not play T'Challa blows my mind.
28:00
SPEAKER_05: It blows my mind to think that this narrow-minded thinking is the process that was the process that was going through his mind.
28:09
SPEAKER_05: I don't understand that.
28:10
SPEAKER_05: How can you so narrow-minded think that nobody, not one single person, can play T'Challa again?
28:18
SPEAKER_05: It's doesn't this to me is the most biggest load of bull crap I've ever heard.
28:23
SPEAKER_05: He's saying things like, There's a moment I need a kernel of truth in a superhero story.
28:32
SPEAKER_05: Mind you, Wakanda is not real.
28:35
SPEAKER_05: These superhero stories are for us to escape reality and enjoy something that we've read about for years, that we enjoy through comics and now through animation, and now we finally get a chance to see the Black Panther on film, and your narrow-minded thinking says no one else can play, no other black actor can play T'Challa.
28:58
SPEAKER_05: What that is that is so narrow-minded thinking that it disgusts me to a point that you're not even gonna give another black actor an opportunity to play that, to carry on the role of Black Panther that is not meant for twin for fans of 2018.
29:13
SPEAKER_05: Again, Black Panther came out in 1966.
29:16
SPEAKER_05: There are so many people during that era that admire the Black Panther, and you you your Colonel of Truth Your Colonel of Truth conflicted this just it's terrible, in my opinion.
29:35
SPEAKER_05: It's terrible.
29:36
SPEAKER_05: And and and now we don't know what's happening for the future of Black Panther going on.
29:42
SPEAKER_05: So it just it cracks me up that this narrow-minded thinking.
29:47
SPEAKER_05: And then you may be like, well, Mike, you're you're being very opinionated about it, but let's let's hear from the actual person himself, Chadwick Bozeman, and his thought process of of having black actors on screen and successful black actors on screen.
30:01
SPEAKER_05: Listen to this.
30:02
SPEAKER_08: We're in a time right now where I I love it and relish the fact that when I shot Black Panther, I'm shooting it with Michael B.
30:15
SPEAKER_08: Jordan.
30:16
SPEAKER_08: And we can coexist.
30:18
SPEAKER_08: But there's this thing of if you're if you're making movies and you're doing well, people start to say, oh, he's the next Denzel, or he's that, right?
30:28
SPEAKER_08: Making your success be based upon the idea that there can only be one of you.
30:34
SPEAKER_08: And we as actors, we talk about this.
30:36
SPEAKER_08: We talk about how debilitating that is, how negative it is, how um, you know, it's it's also frightening, you know what I'm saying, to a certain degree, because you feel like you it you it it divides and conquers.
30:50
SPEAKER_08: It makes us pitch you against each other.
30:51
SPEAKER_08: Pits us against each other.
30:52
SPEAKER_08: Exactly.
30:53
SPEAKER_08: So I root for Aegis Elbow.
30:55
SPEAKER_08: I root, I root for David and Michael and I root for everybody because I know if they do well, the truth is um it it presents an opportunity for me.
31:06
SPEAKER_08: It's mind-boggling, because you know, we go, well, how come we never saw Denzel and Fishburn in the same movie?
31:15
SPEAKER_08: Like, how why did that never happen?
31:18
SPEAKER_08: You know, why did I only see Morgan Freeman and Denzel and Andre Brown in glory is at the only moment when they were playing um uh Union soldiers trying to free slaves?
31:30
SPEAKER_08: Like, that's the only time we ever saw that.
31:32
SPEAKER_08: That never happened any other time.
31:34
SPEAKER_08: Whereas you can put all of these white actors in OSIS 11.
31:40
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_08: And then you throw a done achievement.
31:42
SPEAKER_08: If you're done jitting, you're getting back and it's like, okay, we're good.
31:46
SPEAKER_08: We should be able to coexist.
31:48
SPEAKER_08: There should be opportunities for all of us.
31:50
SPEAKER_08: Um if we put the work in and we're able to carry a movie or support a movie or whatever, we should we should be able to work.
32:00
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
32:00
SPEAKER_08: Um it's all about the stories and people saying these stories are valid.
32:07
SPEAKER_08: Right?
32:08
SPEAKER_08: This story is valid.
32:10
SPEAKER_08: I want to see that.
32:12
SPEAKER_05: That's Chad Rick Bowsen himself.
32:15
SPEAKER_05: Saying how debilitating it is when this happens, right?
32:20
SPEAKER_05: Like the stories matter.
32:22
SPEAKER_05: He said that himself.
32:24
SPEAKER_05: So Ryan Kugler, Marvel, you're not listening to the man himself say that.
32:31
SPEAKER_05: Like these, like having one person fit one role and be saying he's the next Denzel is basically what you're doing to T'Challa.
32:40
SPEAKER_05: Again, make it make sense.
32:43
SPEAKER_05: Make it make sense.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: Continuing on, this before in previous videos, and I'm gonna continue to say it, I'm gonna continue to say it, and I'm gonna continue to say it.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, the representation, it matters.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: The representation matters, it matters having the strong black male on screen, it matters having the strong black woman on screen on screen, because we want to see that in our community.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: We want to see the two uh siblings, queen and king, elevating one another.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: That's what we want to see.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: We don't have to take, we don't have to uh subtract one to add the other.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: That does not have to happen.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: But the representation matters.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: So for people out there saying, well, the little black kids are still gonna uh uh get get Black Panther, they're still gonna have representation in Baku, they're still gonna have representation in Letitia, they're still gonna have representation in uh Denai, Akoye, well, uh that's cool.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: And I would like for you to hear two points here.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: This is what uh uh Jack Kirby, the creator of Black Panther, and for those of you that don't know, I will give you a quick synopsis here.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: Black Panther was created in the 60s during the civil rights movement, when Jack Kirby and Stan Lee were noticing that they had black kids reading their comic books, but had no one in the comics that looked like them.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Representation matters.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: So they created T'Challa the Black Panther, and when they did that, that he was the str the first leading, he was the first leading black superhero.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: So for people that keep saying, also, well, you still got Luke Cage, you still got Riri Williams, you still got Sam Wilson, you still got uh Dr.
34:06
SPEAKER_02: Voodoo and all these other people, all those black heroes are behind T'Challa.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: They are behind him because he is the leading, and then the next one would even be Blue Marvel, I think.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Blue Marvel.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: That's another one that's up there with them.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh he's the one right next to T'Challa, so so it's like the representation of having the first leading black superhero on screen.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: That's what and it's it's it's important.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: It's the the the historical importance of the chalot.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: There are there are moments in the comics where T'Challa's kicking the shit out of the KKK, and that you know, it's like those are moments that were repres in that in that time that was represent that was representation for us.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: That was that was think about that during the civil rights movement, little black kids and black girls and black men and black women were still getting hung.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: We're still by the by the KKK, we're still getting uh Norman, where we live, for those of you from Norman, if you didn't know, Norman used to be a sundown town where you, if you were black, you had to be in by a certain amount of time, or maybe the KKK was about to be running rampant around here, and that's in other states too.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: So when you see that, when a black child, think about a black child in the 60s reading that and then being afraid of the KKK because you can't sit here and tell me, oh, that wasn't a thing.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: It was being afraid of the KKK during that time and then going to your comic book, your fictional comic book, it's not real, but your fictional comic book and seeing the strong, black, superhero that's a king of a nation and he's black and he's the king, and it's and that was unheard of during the civil rights movement, but getting that representation and scene and then seeing him kicking the shit out of something that puts fear in you, and you're telling me that representation doesn't matter?
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Fuck you.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: Because it does.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: It does, it does, it matters in everything, and and all those stories have just progressed.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: It's progressed in Intachala's greatness, it's progressed in Wakanda's greatness, it's progressed in black excellence.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: Seeing that shit on screen, it matters.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: But this is what Jack Kirby had to say.
36:00
SPEAKER_07: The 60s and 70s expanded comics as well as minds.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: I suddenly discovered that there were no blacks in comics, that nobody had made a story about blacks.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: I felt that blacks had to be represented in comics as well as everywhere else.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: So I drew the Black Panther.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: I drew him as a powerful uh and virtuous character.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: And again, that's Jack Kirby.
36:25
SPEAKER_05: That's the creator himself, Jack Kirby Stanley.
36:31
SPEAKER_05: That's what more do I have to say?
36:33
SPEAKER_05: And that clip is from uh the YouTube group Planet Fanatics, who are heavy on the recast T'Challa, and rightfully so.
36:40
SPEAKER_05: Everything they said is brought back backed by facts and receipts, like he says, and it's just I'm so thankful for having them with their voice and using their voice to to teach people, to educate people about the importance of T'Challa and not having him on screen and how hurtful it can be.
37:02
SPEAKER_05: Right?
37:02
SPEAKER_05: And representation does matter, and and this is why they keep and that's why I I love Planet Fun X, I love what they're doing, and I hope they continue doing it because it matters.
37:12
SPEAKER_05: And then you hear what Jack Kirby says, like there's no representation, and now we don't have that no more.
37:19
SPEAKER_05: So what are we doing?
37:20
SPEAKER_05: What what are we doing when it comes to the Black Panther and not having that option anymore?
37:29
SPEAKER_05: Because why?
37:30
SPEAKER_05: Because 2018 fans.
37:32
SPEAKER_05: That's that and that's and that's the thing that bothers me so much.
37:35
SPEAKER_05: We have so much comic lore for for Black Panther, but we're just basing this on 2018, and people are the fans of 2018, which are probably maybe they maybe they are fans of Black Panther.
37:47
SPEAKER_05: And they're they think this was the perfect way for this to happen, but it's not.
37:54
SPEAKER_05: So last clip I'm playing right here.
37:57
SPEAKER_09: But it but it does mean a lot.
37:59
SPEAKER_09: I know I've I've seen a lot of a lot of young kids, a lot of little Black Panthers, you know, some dressed up for Halloween.
38:06
SPEAKER_09: Right.
38:06
SPEAKER_09: Um I even saw some dressed up yesterday for another show that that uh that I was on, and it was crazy.
38:13
SPEAKER_09: Because it w it was wasn't just black Black Panthers, it was white, little white Black Panthers.
38:18
SPEAKER_09: Um uh and that that was completely enlightening because you know they are are looking at a black man saying, I want to be him.
38:30
SPEAKER_09: And there's nothing weird about that.
38:32
SPEAKER_09: No, and it it's not that it doesn't happen in sports, it happens in other arenas, but when you talk about superheroes, it's sort of a thing that's that's new, you know, um, because the other black superheroes that have existed, a lot of them are in support of the white character, as opposed to have like being this is the focal point, this is the person I watch and go through the story, this is the person I want to be.
38:54
SPEAKER_09: And the thing about this movie is there are a few people that you want to be, you know.
39:00
SPEAKER_09: There will be some some little girls who want to be Shuri, you know, who want to be my little sister in the movie because she's really, really cool.
39:08
SPEAKER_09: Um and and she has enough strength and joy um that you want to be as witty as her.
39:16
SPEAKER_09: Some will want to be Okoye down the line.
39:19
SPEAKER_09: They want they'll want to be the other characters too.
39:21
SPEAKER_09: But, you know, I am the lead.
39:25
SPEAKER_09: So yeah, that's a responsibility.
39:27
SPEAKER_09: I am the Panther.
39:28
SPEAKER_09: You know, and and uh, you know, it's it feels great to know that people will want to be that image as well.
39:37
SPEAKER_05: And now we don't have that because of narrow-minded thinking that nobody else can play Black Panther within minutes of the discussion.
39:49
SPEAKER_05: And now that representation is gone.
39:53
SPEAKER_05: That idea of having a black superhero right now is gone.
40:01
SPEAKER_05: And there's just question marks around the Black Panther franchise itself.
40:07
SPEAKER_05: And rest my case.
40:09
SPEAKER_05: This is it.
40:09
SPEAKER_05: This is this is what is Black Panther to mean is now.
40:14
SPEAKER_05: It's a question mark.
40:17
SPEAKER_05: Why?
40:17
SPEAKER_05: I'm and again, like I will say this.
40:20
SPEAKER_05: I will say this.
40:22
SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm part of the old school idea.
40:25
SPEAKER_05: There's no body, there's no death.
40:29
SPEAKER_05: We didn't see a body, we didn't see a death.
40:33
SPEAKER_05: So maybe maybe they had this plan all along.
40:39
SPEAKER_05: I doubt it.
40:40
SPEAKER_05: I I really, really, really, really doubt it compared to listening to what Nate Moore, executive producer, said, listening to Ryan Kugler and his mo his kernels of truth in a fictional story.
40:50
SPEAKER_05: And by the way, if you know where Wakanda is, let me know because that sounds like an interesting place to go to.
40:57
SPEAKER_05: With that being said, this is the post-game of the Black Panther.
41:05
SPEAKER_05: If you can't tell, it's now a five out of ten.
41:11
SPEAKER_05: I want to thank Planet Fanatics for letting me use the clip.
41:14
SPEAKER_05: Uh, thank you guys so much.
41:15
SPEAKER_05: Thank you for doing what you do.
41:16
SPEAKER_05: Thank you for continuing to fight.
41:18
SPEAKER_05: Recast a chala is a real thing and it should happen.
41:22
SPEAKER_05: My opinion.
41:24
SPEAKER_05: That's the end of the episode of WDWDYM.
41:26
SPEAKER_05: I'm your host, Michael Glesman, and I'm out, Boy Scout.
41:28
SPEAKER_05: Peace.