Latest / Trapped Souls Podcast / Joel Sturgis - After Hours AM (part one)

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Joel Sturgis - After Hours AM (part one) · Trapped Souls Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, welcome to Traps Souls Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here with Joel Sturgis, after hours AM author, paranormal investigator, researcher, cryptids, host, obviously, after hours AM.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Over 30 years experience.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't get too many people with 30 years experience in this field.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thank you, man.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ryan, for having me.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we're gonna jump right in this 30 years ago.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's a minute.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is a minute, isn't it?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me feel really old, like really old, especially when I uh meet investigators that don't even remember like 9-11.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because that happened the other day.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was like talking about 9-11.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you talking about?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you know, that whole thing, where were you?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, I wasn't even born yet.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I am getting old.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, yeah, no, I I kind of um paranormal uh it's quite a story.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I always had an interest in it, you know.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because back when I was kind of younger, I I used to like watch in search of and sightings and all that stuff.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I had an interest in the paranormal, and uh I graduated college from Brown University and with a degree in broadcasting, and I ended up getting a job in Dallas, Texas, and uh at a country radio music station, which you know, however you feel about country, if you love it, that's awesome.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't, for me, it's not my thing, but everyone else, it's awesome.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was the overnight guy at this country music radio station, they played like the classic country stuff, and I used to uh every Sunday morning I had a coworker of mine, and and his name is Roy Johnson, and and he was a real real cowboy.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking like busting Bronx, you know, like real Texan, you know, and and he used to talk about driving cattle from you know Kansas to Texas, that whole thing.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the real deal.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he was probably he was in his early 80s at this point, and he had been doing radio after his his uh rodeo career and his you know his cowboy career.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So he'd been doing radio for I think at this point about 20 years, so I gotta know him really well, and uh every every Sunday morning I I enjoyed talking to him because you know he only did radio once a week, and it was on the trail of Cowboy Roy, and he played the old, old, old country music stuff.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he was really a lot of people really enjoyed listening to that.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so before he'd come into studio, I always used to do what they used to call ramps, they still do where it's a lot of songs in a row.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it's getting the other DJ ready to come on air and stuff like that.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you like the DJ that's coming on after you, you gave them a nice long 20-minute song set, so they had time to get in, get ready.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I always did that for what if you didn't like him, you give him a five set and say, There you go, get in there and do your thing.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I always I liked Roy a lot, so I always did that extra.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: But really, the reason why I did that is because he always had something funny to say, interesting stories about being a cowboy, you know, just one-liners and stuff.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, you know, any other day, uh, Roy was upstairs, and and I remember he's drinking his coffee of a styrofoam cup, like he always did, and talking about you know, talking about this and talking about that, and this particular time, uh, the Texas Rangers baseball team was doing great that year, I think.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and he was all excited for that because big baseball fan, and nothing was everything was normal.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Hey Ray, you know, Roy, this is awesome.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for uh, you know, doing all that.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there you go.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can go in the studio, you can do your thing.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Thank you.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm getting ready to leave.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a two-story radio station upstairs.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We had our broadcast booths with the break room.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Downstairs, you'd have to walk through a long hallway, and there's business offices down there, like radio sales, the traffic department, general manager's office.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: You get the picture.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm leaving the building, and I'm tired, it's been a long night, and I see my general manager, his name was Dennis, and he's standing there.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And Dennis is the kind of guy that unless the radio station was on fire, he's not gonna be there on a Sunday morning.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: You knew not a chance.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I saw Dennis standing there in the hallway and and kind of blocking the hallway.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I walk up to him, and and I and I figure at this point I'm getting fired.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'd only been there maybe about a year, year and a half at this point.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Hey Dennis, you know how you doing?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, trying to gauge what he was there for, you know, because I'm thinking, all right, you know what, if the general manager is here and I'm just getting off shift and he's waiting downstairs, this can't be good.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Well, Dennis, what what brings you to the station this morning?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm thinking in the back of my head, well, that I'm here, Roy's here.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's no reason for you to be here other than something bad is going on.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he looks at me and he goes, Yeah, I got I gotta cover a shift.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, you know, grew shift because we're the only two people in the building at the time, and Roy did had a whole hour show, and the next DJ didn't come in to like, you know, because this is eight o'clock in the morning, didn't come in till 9 30 or what have you.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, No, I'm I'm here to cover Roy's shift.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Well, no, you don't need to.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's here.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: He says, That is completely impossible.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, No, he's he's definitely here, it's not impossible.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I don't know if you know this or not, which I'm assuming you don't because you're working, but Roy died last night.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: It took me a minute.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm tired.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, he's here.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, he's not here.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he is.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, humor me, let's go upstairs.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll show you that he's here.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we go upstairs, and empty radio booth, like no Roy.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I went in the break room room, sat down, and I'm like, geez, what what's going on here?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is crazy.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember looking over and I see his styrofoam cup that he was drinking coffee out of, and it was still hot.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: The coffee was.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew I wasn't imagining it, it was real, it was there.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I tell Dennis that I'm like, dude, he was here.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I talked to him, I'm telling you, he was here.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and do you remember?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're a young guy, but you might not remember.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember Stetson Cologne?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: He always it was like Roy used to bathe in that crap, and he would leave a vapor trail, like a lot older gentlemen did.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: You could smell that cologne in the air, and I'm like, he was definitely here.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, my general manager looks at me and he goes, You need to get some sleep.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really sorry.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is I knew you, I know you knew him and you were friends.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is shocking.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you go ahead and and go home?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had two days off after that, and go home and rest.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the thing though, aside from talking to a dead guy for like 15 minutes, I started thinking on my days off.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: What am I bear in mind I'm in my early 20s at this point?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do if he comes back?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: How would I handle that?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: How would I handle Roy coming back knowing what I know now?
• 7:34
  unknown: Right.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I kept saying to myself, Roy, don't you come back?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do not whatever you do, do not come back here.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do not come back, and uh and for a long time in that radio studio, you you catch that whiff of that Stetson Cologne, and and the other DJs that go, Why is it so cold in the booth?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on in there?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it why all of Noah is getting cold?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really, I told one person, I'm like, hey, that I worked with the craziest thing happened to me.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, they looked at me like I was from Mars, so it kind of gauged you know, I didn't want to get the person, you know, the the reputation being the crazy guy there, you know, being the young guy.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, at that time it was really hard to get radio jobs, so you know, it wasn't like today, you know, where you have the option podcast, do this and do that.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: But back then it was you had to know somebody, it was really hard to land a job.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I worked there for about another, I would say two or three months, as much as I could handle it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I got another job, thank God at that time with CBS radio, and so I moved out of there, and uh that really kick-started my passion, my interest, because it became an obsession.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: How did that work?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: How did he show up?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why did he show up?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started there, and at this new station I was at, I used to be a board op for Coast to Coast AM.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, back in those days, when Coast to Coast would hit, you'd actually have to hit the button inside the booth to bring them in and stuff like that.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I got to hear, you know, got paid to listen to Coast to Coast AM hard job, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was pretty awesome, and that's like the old Mel's holes days, all that stuff.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the really good stuff.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: His art was still at the top of his game at this point.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking, you know, I went up to my my program director and I said, Hey, um I got a great idea.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we could capitalize on some airtime if we had a really strong lead-in show for Coast to Coast AM.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think we could get their sponsors and we could, you know, double up on that, and we could become really profitable because that's all they cared about in radio was making money.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was it, you know.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: That was all they cared about.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you really what I was doing is I wanted to start a show like Coast so I could get people on the air and ask my questions.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because back then, yes, it's pre-internet, really.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't like yo, message boards or this or that.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there was nowhere really to turn, and no, and everyone that I tried to talk to, they would look at me again like you know, what are you nuts?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because nobody did that back then, nobody was ghost hunting really back then.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to the uh general manager's office after talking to the program director because he says, Ah, take it up with Bill down there, see what he has to say.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I went up there and I said, Hey Bill, I got a great idea that's gonna make maybe the station some money.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, wait, well, what do you got?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: I told him, Well, I think that we could do our own call-in show right here in this market and be a lead-in show for Coast.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we're they already have a big audience, so we may as well capitalize in that audience and and maybe get some sponsors.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: He stops, he looks at me, and and and you know, he didn't he wasn't a fan of Coast to Coast AM.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Oh, that's that spooky show, that's right, that we carry at night.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I'll tell you what, I'll give you uh we're gonna give you an hour after hours on the AM side, it's gotta be after hours AM.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you're gonna be on.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I took like again.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So in the beginning, they gave me an hour, but I had some friends that were working the FM station, and that's where most of the people would listen is the FM side, and they were saying, Hey, if if you want to hear something cool, tune into the show tonight on this on the dial on the AM dial.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, luckily, I had some good friends that kind of helped get the word out, you know.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, my first show that night they put me on the air with no prep, no guest, no format, nothing known what I was gonna do at all.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was just me and a microphone, nothing.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I cracked the microphone and I said, Well, um welcome to this show, this after hours a.m.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: show.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're a m after hours, and we're here, and it stuck.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, holy yeah, everyone should start calling it that after hours a.m.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: show.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Go go check that show out, it's great, you know, stuff like that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what I was able to do is after I got, you know, that same night though, the lines started lighting up.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: People were calling, they want to talk about the weird stuff they'd seen.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was people just want to, you know, because they couldn't call coast to coast because it's super hard to get on the air.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But here I'm asking people, and the lines are completely open, they're calling up, and I'm listening to these crazy ghost stories, these crazy Bigfoot sightings of just local people talking about it.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that what I did was later on, though, is I kind of had that hidden agenda of I want to learn more about what I went through.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I I started, I was able to start booking my own guests.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd get like the Warrens on, I'd get like Hans Holzer on, I would Brad Steiger from Iowa there on.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd get all these people on that uh wouldn't look at me like I was crazy when I brought it up, you know.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd ask them, is that normal?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that normal to have happen to me what happened to me?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, what's that called?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a usually a departure visit.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times, you know, that's that's something, you know, it just happens sometimes to a lot of people, but the nice thing is they didn't look at me like I was nuts, Ryan.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean it was finally validation that you know this is somewhat heard of, you know, and that's how it all started.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, yeah, thing 20-30 years ago, like you said, people don't want to talk about that stuff.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's completely closed.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you came into an era where they can call you, they don't know you, but they can still get their story out without their neighbors thinking they're crazy, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what it was too.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it gave them anonymity when they called to the show, you know, and they they could talk about it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's cool, but you do it for knowledge, also, and that's oh, absolutely 100%.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was it was definitely somewhat selfish, you know.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I had a hidden agenda.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't start my podcast thinking it'd be educational for me.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to get guests on, learn about their experiences, but it turned into educational for me.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean theories, everything.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So right, it's when people come together and they can learn from each other.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is one of the coolest things that can happen, you know.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you work for Coast to Coast.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was telling you before we jumped on live here, so I'll tell the story real quick.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is I used to work in a security department for they're building a new complex, so another stores were open, it was an outdoor mall, all wooded areas.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I work night shift and I was listening to Coast to Coast AM Hart Bell.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm parked in his parking lot, no, no lights, no nothing.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's pitch black out.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just you know, I'm not scared of anything, you know.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a just graduate police caddy.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty badass, you know.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they start playing the exorcism of Emily Rose, the rural recordings.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, yes, that freaked me out.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I lasted about I made it through the whole thing, but I think it was like 10 minutes in where I locked the doors.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, you listen to those recordings, and they're so guttural and they're so creepy, and here you are by yourself in the middle of the night listening to Art Bell with I mean, yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, was there really any better times though?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, being in that moment listening to that, you know, it's it's definitely a special time radio.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean you listen to Art Bell.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you got everything from paranormal UFOs.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's such a broad what they brought to the table, yeah.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's you know, I don't know the history of paranormal radio, but that had to start it all, or at least made the biggest footprint.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's only one other before him that was that long John Neville, and he was on New York, and he he was the kind of forerunner to Coast, so yeah, yeah, wasn't that you know it was only one other guy, and then there's art, you know, you know.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, you're right.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were kind of you know, everyone that does a podcast or radio show was a little, you know, especially this genre was a little dead of gratitude, you know, because that that was the archetype.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he was.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't want to say pioneer, but he was the one that said it was okay to talk about this stuff.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he put his name out there when it wasn't okay to talk about this, even to this day.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Some people still don't like talking about this stuff.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's there's quite a few people that don't want to partake, and and I kind of do uh our show, the one I host after hours a.m.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: is very much like you know, it's kind of what I always did.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have different people from different walks of life, from different, you know, ideas, UFOs, ghosts, bigfoot, you name it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: We go everywhere, and then of course we do call-ins and stuff like that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of fun.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: You had your experience, got some answers, hopefully.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: What was your next time that you actually had an experience?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And did you go out looking?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: After that, I started looking.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I you know, and back in those days, you know, equipment is nowhere near like it is today.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what did I have?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I had a recorder, I had a 35 millimeter camera.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, no, I started with a Polaroid camera, and then I graduated 35 millimeter.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then a friend of mine had a brother that was an electrician, and he had a um a tri-field natural meter, and which you know, I got my hands on that because I said, Hey, can I buy that off of you?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, where do I get this from?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at that time, you know, it was basically only electricians are carrying those things, you know, it wasn't really something that you'd see in the store.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh he was able to scare me up a uh uh a used one, you know, because they were expensive back then, they were like six, eight hundred bucks back then.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're a lot of money, it was an investment.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So he was able to get me one for about 400, and this is the early 90s, so I mean that's there's uh you know, positive the inflation, it doesn't seem like much now, but back then 400 bucks was like you know, over a month of rent, you know.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it meant something, and uh, I didn't really know what I was doing when I first started, no idea.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, I had books, read a lot of books, asked a lot of questions.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had the Warrens on speed dial, I had Brad Steiger in speed, I had Hans Holzer.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'd call up, I had their phone numbers, so I'd just call them up and say, Hey, what do you think of this?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I doing this wrong?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or or or am I doing that wrong, or or what do you think I should be doing differently?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Things like that.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I learned a lot from them one-on-one, you know, instruction of what they're doing, you know, and of course they all have their own theories too, you know, it's like just like today, you know, everybody has many different theories, and that's pretty cool as well.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, uh, you know, like you know, like I found the most I guess the most instructional was like Hans Holzer.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was very instructional and and really very down-to-earth and and more science-based.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, he he he recommended I use a transmedium.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I didn't know any trans mediums, I didn't even know what a trans medium was, let alone have one or know someone that was, and uh, even if I did have one, I wouldn't know how to utilize that person.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, uh, really, I just kind of started by myself, um, camera, recorder, trifield meter that I scared up from the electrician, and that was it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was all I had.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, what place you go first, then you know, uh, yeah, in Texas, there was a place called Rossi's Pond, and it had uh a haunted lore.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, in the 50s, it's the Lover's Lane kind of place, and I kept hearing around town, Oh, you got to go over to that pond, that thing's haunted, man.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you, that haunted pond, it's crazy over there.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And people kept talking about it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the lore says that if you go there on a certain night when it they died, and you go there at the time of their death, that you could see them walking out of this pond, these ghosts walking out this pond.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, me, be you know, I'm like, Well, I'm gonna go check that out.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, let's go check this thing out.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there I am.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was at the time I was driving a Ford old Ford F-150, like a 76 or 71 and Ford F-150, and I'm and I'm watching this pond like crazy of a pair of binoculars, and I'm watching, I'm waiting, and the time is coming up.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: The assigned time when they allegedly died is coming up, and I'm waiting, and I'm sitting there, you know, something's gonna happen, something's gotta happen.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm sitting there and I and I watch these orbs for a lack of better term come up from the water, like ripe from the water, just came right up.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm thinking, are those lightning bugs?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are they something?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it just so weird.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and they start moving around, you know, like that, like there's thought, you know, like that like they're moving around.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sit there and I watch for a little while, and I'm starting to get a little freaked out, I'll be honest, because this bear in mind, this this is this is real, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm no to me, I'm like, this is the first time I actually went out looking before Roy was a happen to happen.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, you know, I mean, it was an accident.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this was really.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I put myself in a situation for that reason.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So two things go through my head.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, am I stupid?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I'm a little scared right now because I'm watching these lights and they're coming across this pond and they and They're it was the weirdest thing because they're walking or they're bouncing like somebody would walk, you know.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're they're like going up and down, up and down, and I'm watching, and then they they finally hit the shore, and they're like 30 feet from my truck, so I mean they're really close.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like I'm watching through a pair of binoculars, they're they're right there, you know, these things are right there.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember getting out of my truck and I see footprints in the sand from where they were walking.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I still have those pictures, I should get those to you.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're walking, and there was actually um, it was it was like do you remember the old saddle shoes girls used to wear with the heel?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you don't, and then it was a pair of cowboy boots, and they were walking in the sand, and I was watching these things form as they were going, and they walked off into the woods.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I took pictures like a Chinese tourist man.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm and you know, I'm like, this is so awesome! This is so awesome, and and uh I remember, you know, had I known then what I know now, uh man, I would have had a lot more setup going on.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I got really cold in the area when yeah, I mean, just things, things I didn't know about then.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's definitely there's a smell of almost ozone in the air, like there's a smell like almost like burnt electricity, and I and I watched it and I and I I'm like, holy crap, this is the coolest thing ever.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: So then I tear off into town to go tell people, you guys are totally right, it's freaking haunted, yelled out that kind of thing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: That was my first going out to look for it investigation, and and and I didn't know what the hell I was doing that tri field.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm flipping it around, I'm going to different settings trying to get readings, and I had no idea.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I had this meter and I didn't know how to use it, I didn't know what to do with it, but it sure was an experience.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it got me like terrified and hooked all at the same time, even even further, even more.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, fast forward how many years that was 20-30 years, yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it was?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Residual.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they showed presence of mind.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but there's physical evidence left, but probably if I had to put money on it, that was a residual haunting, but they left physical evidence behind.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes residuals can, and so yeah, that was definitely a residual because but then I went the following year and nothing happened.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing happened, nothing happened.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it was it was I don't know if it was just for me or yeah, I mean lucky that it happened or what have you, but uh went back again, and nothing, nothing even happened at all.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I I threw this out on Facebook earlier, I think yesterday or today.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's more important, the experience that it happened or the evidence?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Catch up well, you know, you can't prove it happened unless you have the evidence, right?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I mean to the world.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know you experienced it, and you know what you experienced, and and and that's very powerful in and of itself.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And but if that's all you're after is the experience, then mission accomplished, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I but I think that we have a duty as investigators to get the best credible evidence we can to prove what happened because ultimately we're trying to further uh a study of investigation, right?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And without that credible evidence, without that being correctly, in my opinion, done, it's hard.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a wasted opportunity in my mind, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people right now are just focusing way too much on the evidence instead of the experience.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think you gotta do both.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's gotta be a little bit of both going on.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that I I think that you gotta enjoy both because that's why you're there.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're trying to capture it, and the experience can be very strong, the experience you know, and and I think that uh they're both equal, very balanced, you know.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just could just kind of walk that line, but then there you have ghost hunters out there, which I use that as the thrill seekers.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, if you want to call yourself ghost hunter, that's fine.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I for this conversation, you have your paranormal best scares, and you have your ghost hunters.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: For me, you know, ghost hunters are the ones in the cemetery trying to scare each other and do that, and that which is whatever, you know, whatever floats your boat, it's your thing, you know.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, like you said, it's a fine line that you know we gotta walk.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just think nowadays people are just trying to get evidence without getting experience because they want those followers, they want that they want the clicks, yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what it is.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are they looking to further the field of study?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are they looking to further their own agenda?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's what it really comes down to.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm good friends with Dr.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Barry Taft, and I will send him my evidence.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, take a look at this, Barry, run it through the paces.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know if that's legit, you know.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what you think of it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, he he's a a doctorate in parapsychology, and if it holds water, awesome, but sometimes it just doesn't, yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and and and it sucks, you know, because you you swear to god, you know, that was good, but then you know that it's not right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and I mean, I think that I wish in some ways, doing this as long as I have, I wish we had a standards and practices that everybody follow.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know it'll never happen.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm talking dreamland, and I know I'm talking people are going, Joe, you're crazy right now.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I get that, I totally do, but I just wish in a perfect world, you know, like any other study of science, that we had standards of practices, some you know, just the way everybody does it this way, that way the the evidence you know is captured the same way each time, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you're you're talking equipment, and it's kind of funny because I was just on a phone with one of my good friends, Jude, and he's like, I've been listening to your show, I'm trying to catch up.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he started way back, you know, a year and a half two years ago when I started.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I'm with you, I want to go back to old school equipment.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, yeah, you talked about the new equipment, and I kind of went the same way like six months ago.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just started taking my recorder, maybe a tripwire, that's it, you know, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Very minimal.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I still do that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't take, I mean, you know, I was gifted a REM pod and it's still in the box, you know.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Cause because you know, I I want to be gracious and I didn't want to be like, oh, screw you, I don't want your junk.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, but I want to be nice and take it and stuff like that.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because to me, lights have never it's never been evidence.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Lights has never been evidence, right?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's just not in my own opinion.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, your mileage may vary.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean people like you know, the cat balls, you know, they light up, it's a spirit, REM pod goes off.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: But do we know it's a spirit?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, we don't, you know, because there's a lot of road radio waves out there that make REN pods go off.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I kind of don't use mine anymore.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I used it for I think five months, never they never went off ever, unless I was turning it off.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all of a sudden it's just non-stop.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Change the batteries.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Being a guy that's worked in broadcasting for as long as I have people in their ghost radios, and I and I'm like, Well, you don't know how you ever heard of frequency bleed over?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, Well, what's that?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, when you go through radio stations so fast, you get what they call bleed over.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's because it's going so fast, it's cycling so fast.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: The word from the last station is actually bleeding over into the next station because the radio hasn't technically caught up to itself yet, and sometimes I'm not saying all the time, that can be give you some false reasons, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, that's huge right now, Esther's method, you know, using a spirit box.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I like it, but again, you gotta take it with a grain of salt, too, like anything.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's I've heard some weird stuff on it though, too.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was just on a panel about equipment at the Cleveland Paracon, and they were like, No, spirit boxes don't do anything, they're not good, but they like word banks.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: See, yeah, see, now I think the spirit box has its place.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have seen it do some amazing things in the right hands with the right people that know what they're doing, you know.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, but you're right.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I think everything has a you know, like like I'm like the ovulus, right?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: When that first came out, I'm like, it's a word generator, yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean that that's that's all it is, it's just a word generator.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess maybe what I'm trying to say, Ryan, is maybe we put our trust too much in the equipment because uh a couple scientists that I used to know and still do, they always say one thing do you calibrate all your equipment before you go out.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what do you mean?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who put that together?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Was it inspector 12 that put together that REM pod and is even calibrated?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, does I mean what's what's your baselines on the equipment?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, most of the time investigators can't tell you what that baseline is.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean it's it's interesting.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so I got some good stuff out of the spirit box.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my argument with them at that time is I think a spirit can do enough energy to speak through a radio wave compared to go into this imaginary word bank of 10,000 words.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I would say one right out.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody had a word bank machine and a spirit box, I'd take the spirit box every day of the week, twice on Sunday.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you know, because I have actually seen credible things come from those, you know, and it's it's amazing, it really is.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, the best one I ever dealt with, I think we were um well, you know, and and there are ways to block those out, those road radio.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: You could put it a Faraday cage, you know, and that will stop anything.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then whatever you get obviously is in there with it because it's can't pick anything up, it's just can't do that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: But we I've been in places where we've been, you know, the nearest radio station is 50 miles, you know, out of range, 50 miles, and there's nothing, it's not picking up anything, like no radio stations at all.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And stuff starts coming through.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: That really starts making you think, whoa, what's going on here?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because now it's starting to pick stuff up that's not even able, not even there.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd tell you, it's you gotta take it with a grain of salt, it's interesting.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I used to make the Radio Shack hacks back in the day.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Get the go to Radio Shack, get the radio, pull it apart, put it back together.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're talking recorders since you know a lot about this.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'll bring this up to you, like old school like film recorders, like you know, they use you know magnets.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yep.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, would do you think that would work better?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: I still do that, yeah.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: I still if I can I have a digital recorder, full disclosure, and I have used it, but I actually prefer the old tape deck, you know, and and and I've got better evidence longer EVP with uh with a normal tape recorder.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have, I mean, you know, I I don't seem to do as well with the digital.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: The digital just doesn't seem like there's as much there for the for the energy to work with because you know it's solid state, there's no moving parts, those magnets, you know, they're they're they're being charged, you know, so there's a lot to work with versus a digital.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not there's anything necessarily wrong with it, I just don't get as good results with the digital.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I have an old school digital, doesn't cancel out background noise or anything.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so now the real to real.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's where it gets really crazy.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think I might carry that thing around though.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's big, but man, the real to real.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was well, that's what Hans was using back in the day.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the Warrens are using back in the day.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: That I mean, you know, the real to real, and that because it's such a wider film, yeah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and it's so much more energy going through it that that that's the theory behind it, that's why it's better because it's got more energy, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm gonna have to get an old tape layer, you know, recorder and try that out.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, give it a whirl, see what see what happens, you know.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, can still get them on Amazon, the tapes and everything, so you know, yeah, it's all available.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, places you have investigated, um, being on a radio show, I'm sure you've been invited to places also.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: A few times.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Has anyone like stand out to you?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you know, I I live in Minnesota and on um northern part, and I love it.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: God's country up here, love it, wouldn't look, wouldn't live anywhere else.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a cemetery near, oh, I'd say probably about a half hour away from me.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Lakeview Cemetery in the city of Buell, Minnesota, and it has about 900 people in it.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: But back in the day when tuberculosis was raging, they had a hospital there called the Shaw Hospital, and it was kind of like our Waverly Hills, really.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't as big as Waverly, don't get me wrong, it wasn't like this giant, massive, you know, beast of a building.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: But there's uh the cemetery has a Potter's Field in it, and that's where they would bury the the TB patients when they expire was the Potter's Field, and there is, you know, just it's big and it and and it's got a lot of different bodies in it, and um, that is one of the most haunted places I've ever been in my entire life.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you'll walk into that cemetery, especially go to that Potter's Field, and you'll see a full-body apparition.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you'll see, you know, just the craziest things, and it's not just me, I mean, it's all over, you know, people will come to me and go, Man, I was that I was over there, and I saw this, and and they'll describe exactly like there's a little girl that runs across the road that I saw, and then someone I even know explains to me, I saw a little girl running across the road over there, and I said, What'd it look like?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it looked like it had like a hospital dress on or something.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I said, That's yeah, and I didn't tell them that's what I saw too.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like, Well, that's interesting, but validated what I was seeing, and then you get uh, and then I did a lot of research.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a book, uh uh, you know, the that's gonna be coming out.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Foundation's publishing is doing it, and and I it's the Midwest haunted, uh, it's the ultimate Midwest haunted places road guide, basically, road trip guide, and it's in that book.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: But in my in my research, I realized, you know, I got a hold of their ledger from that Shah Hospital.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is years ago, and they were burying multiple bodies, they're doing mass graves in that Potter's Field, the multiple bodies.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: There were just so many people dying that they just that's what they had to do, they just didn't have a room.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh after I found that out, I purposely went back to Pottersfield and and and I kind of just asked him point blank, you know, because there's no names or anything, it's just numbers that correspond to a ledger.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I just asked him, Are you worried?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you fear that you're being forgotten?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And oh my god, Ryan, it's like stuff got real.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was audible screaming, like I could hear it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: People with me could hear it with their own ears.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: People just, you know, yes, they were worried that they're being forgotten, that they're being left behind, that you know, their loved ones have no idea what happened to them.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I I just kind of said, Hey, you know, um I'm gonna leave the mic open.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is there anyone you want me to tell, you know, contact for you?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is do you want your family to know anything?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and and some of them were, you know, like tell them, you know, I'm uh I don't, you know, I remember them and and things like that.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and I didn't look go really heavy into the TV stuff, you know, like, oh, how did you die?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh clear how they died, they were all TV patients, so I wasn't gonna waste their time or mine, but it was a very interesting time, and even to this day, 20 years later, it's still every bit as active as it was then, and and you know, and and it's uh it's kind of sad that people mainly the reason why I did it too is I don't want the people to be forgotten, right?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these poor people suffered, you know, and and and now they're in a mass grave with just you know a number on a cross, you know, without even acknowledging who they are.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean people who know me is you know, why I go to pay-to-pay places is keep memories alive and get their stories straight.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say that, you know, I think more people are more scared to being forgotten than they are dying.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I I agree with that.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's that's real.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I know you know, uh, like I was at Velisca not too long ago when I was writing this book, and and that was a whole nother bag of you know, that was sad, you know, could what happened to the family, and and of course, you know, when you go in there, the the the kids are still there.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you just feel it, you feel that I don't know if you've ever been to Vallisca, but it's it's it's you it's just there, you know, and and you know, and some of it, some of it I sometimes I wrestle with the morality of profiting off the dead.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I I wrestle with that, right?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because a couple places they've said, well, you know, don't don't do crossings here, we don't want you messing with our ghosts, right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're what because they're your cash cows.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, you you know, so sometimes I wrestle with that a little bit.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't begrudge anyone that goes to these places, but no, sometimes it's just like, damn man, where'd you draw that that line?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's tough, like and these owners don't understand that the people that go in there are asking questions that are paying to go in there.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: More spirits will come, like because they know you're in there to ask questions.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm a big believer, more spirits will come.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, especially you get all these investigators traipsing through there over the years.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they bring their own garbage with them, you know.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, their own mental garbage, you know.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's really you know not gonna end because you know, you get those really popular places.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: I like to go places that no one else has gone yet, like completely just virgin territory, you know.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that's getting harder and harder to find back in the old days.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everything was pretty much virgin territory, nobody was really doing it.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you go and you do that now.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting harder.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean that and like a lot of these owners aren't.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say a lot.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know some that are not in it for the money, they're in it to restore the historical locations, keep the stores alive.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but now it's becoming a business where people are buying these places for yes, yeah.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's a whole industry now, you know, buying a Honda location, alleged Honda location with the idea of profiting off of it.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, it's it's uh there's there's there's whole uh you know realtors that that's what they specialize in, right?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's I was actually talking to owner last week of a couple places, and he's like, You can tell when a paranormal investigator owns a Honda location compared to a corporation, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's sad that the corporations are getting into it now, yeah.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they see the they see the money, you know, to them it's all about the money.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's real sad when you see them getting attacked those places and the places is still being run down, yes, fixed up.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep, because they're using it for every nickel they can ring out of it and not turn anything into it.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't mind paying when I go to these places and they're redoing it, keeping it up to date, not up to date, they're keeping it the old ways, but yeah, where they're trying to restore it, yeah.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, I get you.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'd I'd rather give my money to someone like that, yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that hey, we're trying to restore this building.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we're funding the restoration.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: I get that, I get that, and I support that, you know, because if we lose our history, we're damned to repeat it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I get that part.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't, like I said, I support that part, but corporations getting into it just to wring every little nickel out of a location and then you know, bulldoze it when they're all done when it's no longer profitable.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's where it gets a little ridiculous.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the paranormal field in the hall, though, too.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, equipment's the same thing nowadays, you know.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, whatever you can find to make money, someone is gonna capitalize, and then before long, corporate America comes in, and then that's you know, then unfortunately, that's just the way it's getting more and more, you know, more and more prevalent that way.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just have to keep grinding and keep doing what we're doing.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, that's it, you know, that's all you can do.