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So Who Cares Anyway E40 Human Nature · SoWhoCaresAnyway

• 0:04
  Welcome to So Who Cares.
• 0:06
  Anyway, a fortnightly podcast exploring stories that shape care community and the systems we live in.
• 0:13
  I'm Ruth Germaine, and in each episode I'm joined by my guests, people from behind clinical doors to the North York malls, whose experiences open a window into how we care for one another.
• 0:25
  Together, we explore care through creativity, connection, and the strengths we already hold.
• 0:31
  Because care isn't small, care isn't soft care shapes the world, so who cares.
• 0:37
  Anyway, it's time to talk about it.
• 0:42
  Hi, it's Ruth here, and before we go to, into this next episode, I just want to do a brief introduction and um, let you know what we're gonna be talking about.
• 0:50
  So today I've got James Farrell.
• 0:52
  So I was introduced to him as you are here through Tracy Robinson, who's also been on this podcast talking about how she uses nature in coaching, um, amongst other things.
• 1:02
  But James really goes into that much more deeply, and I think that's because James is a chartered environmentalist and he goes right back to when he was young and his connection with nature.
• 1:11
  We explore quite a few things today.
• 1:13
  We talk about how we can reconnect with nature.
• 1:16
  Why that matters for our wellbeing, why that matters for our community, and certainly matters for our planet, but also how it gives us a sense of purpose and um, a sense of meaning.
• 1:26
  So yeah, just hope you enjoy the conversation.
• 1:31
  Hello and um, welcome James.
• 1:33
  Welcome to So Who Cares.
• 1:34
  Anyway, it's lovely to have you on the show.
• 1:36
  Sorry to be here, Ruth.
• 1:37
  Thank you.
• 1:38
  Thank you so much for coming.
• 1:39
  And just to give a little bit more details, people, um, you're James Farrell and you do, you work for the Natural Coaching Company and my understanding is that your standing is that you started off as a chartered environmentalist, but I'm gonna let you do a little bit more.
• 1:52
  Of an introduction yourself in a moment, but just for listeners out there, I say that the reason that we um, or the person that connected us was Tracy, Tracy Robinson, who was on a previous podcast.
• 2:03
  So she said to me, I think James would be really great to have on.
• 2:06
  So we met the other day and we had a great chat and as so often happens, we sort of had to stop it.
• 2:10
  Otherwise I felt like we'd start the podcast already.
• 2:13
  So, um, yeah, that's just a be brief background, but if you'd like to introduce yourself, please, that'd be great, James.
• 2:19
  Thank you.
• 2:20
  Thanks, Ruth, and thanks to Tracy for the intro as well.
• 2:22
  Yeah.
• 2:23
  So I'm James.
• 2:23
  Um, I'm a chartered environmentalist, um, and, uh, accredited coach.
• 2:30
  I lead the natural coaching company and I also have a consultancy, which I think their work will show up in this conversation I expect, called the Human Nature Partnership.
• 2:39
  So coaching work that I do is, uh, mainly one-to-one with leaders, but also.
• 2:46
  People that need support with poor mental health or challenges around their neurodevelopmental needs and.
• 2:55
  In a lot of that work.
• 2:56
  Um, and my consultancy work, we, um, we work sort of as part of a wider system, if you like.
• 3:03
  So, uh, and that includes the environment and, and nature in particular, which kind of connects my environmental interests with my people interests.
• 3:10
  And the consultancy does something similar, but on a bigger scale, working with organizations so.
• 3:16
  How can an organization integrate nature into its strategy and its practice? Whatever that is.
• 3:22
  Could be their estate, their buildings.
• 3:24
  It could be their staff engagement.
• 3:26
  It could be their, their communities or whatever outcomes they, they, they can deliver.
• 3:30
  So, um.
• 3:31
  Yeah, that's in a nutshell.
• 3:33
  I've been, um, an employee and a senior leader in a large government agency.
• 3:37
  And, uh, that end of my career, that part of my career I closed a couple of weeks ago, so I'm now full-time on, on those two things.
• 3:45
  And that's quite sort of, um, a diverse perspective 'cause you've really brought your, your chartered environmentalist bit into the work that you've done.
• 3:53
  Um, and start to think about that in the, how you connect that to.
• 3:58
  You know that human connection and people connection, but beyond that, you've started to think wider about organizations and systems and to really think about that further.
• 4:08
  So what I'd like to ask you now is, can you tell me a bit more, James, about your passion and drive what, I mean, you might wanna go right back to the beginning of, for, you know, sort of how you got, why you went in to be an environmentalist, or there might be something later on that sort of really drove you to start to think about these things and think about what it is that we can do and how we might use the environment.
• 4:28
  Yeah, I, I, I certainly can.
• 4:31
  So I guess my, well, my earliest memories of nature as a kid growing up in London, not particularly green, where I lived.
• 4:37
  Um, and I remember gonna school with my.
• 4:42
  Uh, mum.
• 4:42
  Uh, I was before primary school, probably nursery school, and seeing a spider in a hole in a wall and a brick wall on the way, and being really fascinated by it and making sure we, we visited it on the way to school, on the way back from school every day.
• 4:54
  Must have driven my mum mad.
• 4:56
  Um, but just think, just sort of, I think I still have that awareness now almost of like, you know, a.
• 5:01
  Another creatures living out its life, you know, independent of us.
• 5:05
  And, um, I found that fascinating and was a bit of a nature kid.
• 5:09
  Whenever I could be sort of dug around the back garden, um, and looked for, looked for things, um, I could find.
• 5:15
  But I think a lot of my nature interest then dropped off.
• 5:18
  I got passionate about music.
• 5:19
  I got, you know.
• 5:20
  Teenager, you, it's very common that, right, that you kind of, yes.
• 5:23
  You lose that connection with nature.
• 5:25
  I dunno if you are the same, Ruth, but it came back to me later.
• 5:29
  I, I planned to be a doctor and I basically failed my A levels, so ended up going to do biological science, which turned into a degree about animal ecology.
• 5:38
  And actually, in a way, in the grades I did was the best thing that could have happened.
• 5:42
  I ended up.
• 5:43
  Yeah.
• 5:44
  You know, getting really passionate again about wildlife and nature and that degree was, was looking at how do wildlife populations and ecosystems work and how do animals relate to each other and what, uh, in a systemic way.
• 5:59
  And so it was a kind of a systems based approach, if you like, to nature.
• 6:03
  And then much, much later in my career, I went to work in lots of different conservation jobs, and then I worked for the Mayor of London in sort of policy and programs around lately, but also broadly into energy, sustainable energy, sustainable transport, sustainable building design, and so on.
• 6:19
  Um, I realized that there was, you know, the human systems in a way mirror the natural systems.
• 6:24
  So there's a turning point.
• 6:25
  I think 2019 I realized I was kind of progressing in a certain direction that my job, I was becoming more senior.
• 6:32
  Um, and that was fine, but it was taking me further and further away from those passions, which is.
• 6:39
  Helping people be the best they can be, but also in a relationship with nature and making sure that nature is in the best place it can be too.
• 6:47
  So people in nature kind of work my like, ah, wake up me 19, what do I do about that? I'm not going in the right direction work.
• 6:54
  So I set up the coach natural coaching company and the partnership and I've now exited, um, to do it full time.
• 7:03
  So that's my passion.
• 7:04
  And along the way I've had.
• 7:06
  I've been lucky enough to have some really incredible experiences of living in and amongst nature in wild places, but also in the middle of cities.
• 7:14
  And those experiences kind of, they live with me.
• 7:18
  You know, I, every single day I make sure I go outside somewhere, even it's around the block.
• 7:24
  And connect with nature.
• 7:25
  And I've become fascinated by the science of that.
• 7:27
  How does that work? Uh, what are the benefits? Mental health, physical health, relationships with between people, but also then how might we be, uh.
• 7:39
  Activated if you like.
• 7:40
  Um, how can we re remember the beauty of nature and how we feel when we're there and reconnect in a way that encourages us to give back.
• 7:50
  'cause we know the planet is in a fairly dire state and we fully need, need that.
• 7:55
  And nature Connection can be a tool to, for repair as well as well, I think so.
• 8:00
  Something, something of a flavor.
• 8:02
  Yes.
• 8:03
  Yeah.
• 8:03
  And I feel like it probably is just a flavor, 'cause you've said so much there, and I like the fact that you're sort of saying something of a repair, but it's almost like you're talking about repair for the individual or for the people and thinking about that connection, but also the repair for the environment.
• 8:17
  And of course, going back over what you said, you talked about how the ecosystem.
• 8:22
  Um, mirrors human systems as well.
• 8:24
  And I've thought about this a lot actually.
• 8:26
  Yeah.
• 8:26
  Um, it's something that I've just sort of doodled and amused over a little bit.
• 8:30
  It's not something I'd share, but, you know, 'cause I, it just sort of fascinated me one day I suddenly thought about it and I think there's a massive connection and learning Yeah.
• 8:38
  That we can have.
• 8:39
  Um, yeah.
• 8:40
  And I was just fascinated as well, you were saying about you lived in many different places.
• 8:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:45
  Um, and that you were quite lucky in that.
• 8:46
  And I'm just wondering 'cause my.
• 8:48
  Brain straight away was thinking, well, well, where have you lived? What was, what were those places like? So I don't expect you to tell us every single place that you live, but I think it'd be really nice to hear a little bit more about one of the places or maybe something about the places that impacted you or something.
• 9:01
  Yeah.
• 9:02
  Thank you for asking that.
• 9:03
  Yeah.
• 9:04
  I was talking to my wife about this the other day.
• 9:06
  I get this, I feel I have this sort of sense of rootlessness almost.
• 9:10
  I was born in Australia, um, moved a lot as a kid, grew up, grew up in London.
• 9:17
  Left as soon as I could.
• 9:19
  Went to university in the Midlands and then, and then ended up working, uh, in Scotland, in Shetland, in Borneo, in Nepal, back in the UK again, in different places.
• 9:28
  Lived in different parts of the UK in order to try and, you know, get the experience to get a full-time job.
• 9:34
  It's a difficult thing to become a conservationist, unfortunately.
• 9:37
  So that was seven years of moving around a lot.
• 9:40
  And I think that Rootlessness is sort of, was maybe part of that, um, in a way that, that means I'm, I think I'm quite comfortable almost wherever I am.
• 9:48
  Some of them I feel a bit jealous about people that are born and grew up somewhere.
• 9:52
  You know, like they have a place, all their family are there.
• 9:55
  They, they go back there and they feel really connected and I don't feel like I've ever really had that.
• 10:00
  So what I tend to do is I tend to find a connection to a place wherever I am.
• 10:06
  So, you know, I lived in Shetland.
• 10:07
  I managed an island in Shetland.
• 10:09
  It was a National Nature Reserve.
• 10:10
  There was a hundred thousand seabirds.
• 10:12
  There was a, a Croft for me and my fellow warden.
• 10:15
  We had a boat.
• 10:16
  You know, I, I was almost in tears when I left that place.
• 10:18
  And I'm not from Shetland, but it felt at the end of it, like I was.
• 10:22
  So, yeah, something about that.
• 10:23
  I think connecting to a place deeply, almost wherever you are, I think we all have that capacity.
• 10:29
  Um, and I just, I don't really have that kind of anchor into a, a, a one, a one thing like, like a lot of people do.
• 10:35
  Yeah.
• 10:35
  What about you, Ruth? I, I've always loved being out in nature, so Yeah.
• 10:40
  But I grew up in, um, thorac and I always say to anybody who, who knows, um, Thora might know Lakeside.
• 10:46
  Yeah.
• 10:47
  And I always say to everybody, Lakeside was my countryside, so just across the road and we used to go over, it was chalk pits then, and my brother used to fish and things.
• 10:54
  So yeah, I've always enjoyed nature, but um.
• 10:57
  I've always lived in around London, but quite lucky because wherever I've lived there's been places where we can get out.
• 11:03
  As I said, just now, we've got the dogs.
• 11:05
  So I love going outside and um, yeah, but I've sort of lived in a fairly small geographical area, I suppose.
• 11:11
  But, um, yeah, the outside connection is always quite important to me and I love being unfortunate to have a, a garden space and to be able to go out there and enjoy it as well.
• 11:20
  So yeah, the outside's always important and, um.
• 11:24
  When you're saying about the spiders and things, you know, those sort of things.
• 11:27
  I love all that, but my husband really particularly loves sort of bugs and things, so he sort of instilled that into our children as well.
• 11:34
  So whenever they see a stag beetle, they, they sort of think of their dad, you know, they've grown up now, but you know, they, they always think of their dads.
• 11:40
  So, yeah, it's funny isn't it, those little things and I think that sense of connection that you're talking about, perhaps we don't all exercise it so well, whereas you've had to, but you've used that.
• 11:50
  Way of, um, connecting yourself to nature as a way to connecting yourself to where you are rather than thinking, well, I've always been here and I've always lived here.
• 11:58
  So we don't all exercise that in the same way.
• 12:02
  Yeah, I like that.
• 12:03
  And we can take it for granted, can't we? But we can also, most of us do live a life pretty disconnected from nature these days.
• 12:10
  The UK is actually one of the most nature disconnected countries on planet and one of the most nature depleted.
• 12:16
  We kind of think, oh, we're a nation of gardeners and we love nature, but actually the facts don't, don't actually bear that out.
• 12:23
  So.
• 12:24
  Uh, and yet, right? We can all have, I I, I believe an experience outdoors somewhere or we can be supported to have that experience and we can find that feeling again, maybe we've forgotten we had it.
• 12:37
  And that doesn't matter whether you live in the top of a tab block in the middle of bus, bigger cities or, or out in the, in, you know, the countryside in inverted commerce.
• 12:45
  You can refine that and, and that's.
• 12:47
  That's certainly what I've found, you know, with my clients and with organizations I've worked with, noticing that kind of somatic ex, you know, response to being somewhere outdoors is that, that's like a huge hook, right? Because if you've got that, then the facts and the evidence and all of that can follow if you've got that.
• 13:05
  I did a piece of work, we did a piece of work, actually, me and my, um, my business partner with a human nature partnership with, um, Kenton Medway, NHS Trust and Mental Health Trust, and.
• 13:17
  We started that piece of work with a meeting with like some senior people, uh, director and, and, and other senior people and some, you know, representatives of service use, user groups and that kind of thing.
• 13:29
  And we did a workshop and at the beginning of the workshop, we sort of sent them outside with a, with this nature connection practice or set of nature connection practices from this little book that we've published.
• 13:39
  And, um, and the director came back in the room almost in tears with the experience that, that they'd had.
• 13:46
  Um, with a short 10 minute, 15 minute practice, and the practice that they'd chosen was early memories, which is like, just take yourself back in your head to a time when you felt happy outside, as in nature.
• 14:00
  It's incredible that the power of, the power of that, and we kind of knew then that, you know, if we can have that experience beginning of this.
• 14:08
  Piece of strategy work, then actually it's gonna be fine.
• 14:11
  The rest of it's gonna follow.
• 14:12
  People will be receptive.
• 14:13
  Yes.
• 14:14
  Um, so that was a real learning that start with the experience and we can all find it wherever we are.
• 14:19
  You know, beauty of nature connectedness is, can be out of the window with a street tree or it can be the top of a remote mountain and everywhere in between.
• 14:28
  James, that's fascinating and I love the fact that that had such a, an impact so quickly.
• 14:33
  Um, but tell me a little bit.
• 14:34
  You mentioned about how, um, where the UK is one of the most disconnected places from nature and I always feel, um, that many people when you talk to them, feel that they are connected with nature.
• 14:46
  Um, but.
• 14:48
  When you look at what they're doing and what, where they're going, and that you think, well, perhaps you're not quite as connected as you think you are.
• 14:54
  Or maybe I'm not quite as connected, so what does that actually mean and what does that look like? Yeah.
• 14:58
  And if I, if you don't mind me asking the question now, why does that matter? Good questions.
• 15:04
  Good questions.
• 15:06
  There's various scales that people have developed, psychologists and have developed to measure.
• 15:10
  Nature, connectedness and nature.
• 15:12
  Connectness was originally coined by two people, mayor and France from Oberlin University in the States, and they, they define nature connectedness as an experiential sense of oneness.
• 15:24
  With the natural world.
• 15:25
  And what I really love about that definition is you can break it down, right? So experiential, you've gotta be able to experience it.
• 15:31
  You gotta just read about it in a book called Watch on Tele.
• 15:33
  Yeah, yeah.
• 15:35
  It's a sense, right? So it's, it's about our sense, bringing our senses to bear, right? All of our five senses and a bunch of other senses.
• 15:43
  Um, and it's about oneness.
• 15:46
  So if you could, and one of the scales that's quite a, a nice accessible one by a guy called Schultz, it's, um, it's a series of circles that overlap to to, to greater and greater extents until they overlap completely.
• 15:59
  So they're separate.
• 16:00
  The first two circles are completely separate, and the last two circles are completely overlapped, and one circle represents self.
• 16:08
  And the other circle represents nature.
• 16:10
  So, Ruth, if that were, you can picture that in your mind.
• 16:12
  How overlapping do you think those circles are for you? To join some circles and thinking about it.
• 16:19
  I, I'm trying to think how I'd say, but I think I'm probably three quarters there.
• 16:23
  I'd love to say I was completely overlapped, but I'm not, but I think I am three quarters there.
• 16:29
  It probably varies day to day, depending on what I'm doing.
• 16:32
  So on a daylight stay, I've been really busy, lots of meetings, so I think sometimes it's down at only halfway, but other times, you know, at the weekends, and if I get the opportunity, then I think I'm three quarters of the way there.
• 16:45
  You know, I will always be sat in the chair where I can look out the window rather than the living room where I can look at the, the TV if I have that choice.
• 16:52
  But sometimes it's about the choice being taken away from me be, or I feel like it is because of work or something like that.
• 16:59
  But if I can be outside, then I am.
• 17:01
  Yeah.
• 17:02
  Lovely.
• 17:02
  Well, lovely.
• 17:02
  So you can kind of see how we could measure it and um, I think it's really important that we don't have a sense of judgment around it.
• 17:09
  You might feel completely separate That's, that's okay.
• 17:12
  What we can.
• 17:14
  We can all maybe take along with that is that we can change our, our relationship, our sense of oneness by having more experiences with nature that are sensory.
• 17:24
  I mean, that's kind of what the definition says.
• 17:26
  So I've done some work, for example, training coaches in nature-based coaching and over a 10 week training course.
• 17:34
  I measure at the beginning how nature connected they are and at the end how nature connected they are.
• 17:38
  And I've been able to show a statistical increase.
• 17:41
  Nature connectedness in a relatively short space of time, um, as a result of not just learning about the science of nature and how to work into coaching, but developing a personal practice of some kind.
• 17:54
  You know, it might just be like you say, sitting and looking out into the garden or being in the garden or going for a walk around the block or visiting a park once a week, whatever it is, and then also working with somebody else.
• 18:08
  Uh, to, you know, to in, in nature informed work so we can change.
• 18:13
  I suppose it's the short, the short, um, summary of that.
• 18:16
  Whatever we are, we can, we can change.
• 18:18
  Um, why does it matter? Uh, there's a book here I'm writing, so, but I went the whole thing.
• 18:25
  Why does it matter? I'll give you one statistic.
• 18:27
  There are so many.
• 18:27
  I'll give you one statistic.
• 18:29
  Um, there's been a study which showed that nature connectedness predicts a sense of worthwhile life.
• 18:37
  We all want a sense of worthwhile life, don't we? Right.
• 18:40
  Rather life to mean something and make a difference.
• 18:43
  Yeah.
• 18:43
  It predicts that, uh, that sense of, that, the ability for it to sort of predict that, if you like, is four times greater than an increase in how much money you've got in your socioeconomic status.
• 18:56
  So we all think like a worthwhile life means I'm gonna win the lottery or, you know, rise up the ranks and earn more money or.
• 19:06
  Acquire more stuff, right? That's kind of the modern disease.
• 19:11
  Yes.
• 19:11
  Um, and I think that's really very, very powerful statistic.
• 19:16
  The other reason it really matters is that nature connectedness predicts pro-environmental behavior and it predicts pro-social behavior.
• 19:26
  Okay? What I mean by that is if you, the people who tend to feel like those circles we talked about are really overlapping.
• 19:35
  Tend to be more generous, kind neighbors.
• 19:40
  They smile more, they're less lonely.
• 19:43
  There's a whole bunch of, they, they're more, they make more ethical decisions.
• 19:47
  There's a whole bunch of pro-social metrics that that increase.
• 19:52
  Right? And we know that people who are, who those circles overlap for take twice as much action in their daily lives for the environment as people who.
• 20:02
  Those circles don't overlap.
• 20:03
  And three and a half times more action for nature.
• 20:07
  So when we're thinking about a world which is nature depleted, right? Biodiversity crisis linked to health, it's linked to climate, it's linked to equity, social justice, all of these things, all in in interlink.
• 20:21
  We want to try and make a difference.
• 20:23
  We obviously need to influence banks and finance institutions and governments and big business.
• 20:29
  That's a given, and we can make a difference ourselves and that can give us a sense of agency, right? That can give us a sense of, okay, the world's in a difficult place, but I can do something.
• 20:43
  I can do something in my garden, I can volunteer, I can vote in a certain way.
• 20:50
  I, you know, whatever it might be.
• 20:51
  I can think about where I, where my.
• 20:53
  Where I'm buying things from.
• 20:56
  I think that's really, that's not just important, but that's vital.
• 21:00
  'cause that's part of healing our relationship with nature that we've been destroying since Industrial Revolution began and probably before.
• 21:08
  Wow.
• 21:08
  So what you're talking about there is socially.
• 21:12
  It's, it's positive for us, yeah.
• 21:14
  On social aspects and positive for society, but also it's given us a sense of purpose, really.
• 21:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:20
  Um, so that once we've got that sense of purpose, then actually we'll be more likely to act and, and make a difference to our environment.
• 21:28
  But that in turn is gonna have that increased impact that goes straight back again to us as humans, as to our health and wellness, our wellbeing.
• 21:36
  Totally.
• 21:36
  And again, socially, how we are getting on within our.
• 21:40
  Um, within our communities, wherever they may be at that time.
• 21:43
  Yeah.
• 21:44
  You know, I'm thinking about the fact that you say that you're not rooted, but being in a community is really important and it doesn't matter how long we're in that, and our communities can extend far and wide as well, can't they? So the impact just from those sound really wide.
• 21:58
  So I mean, why so why wouldn't we? Yeah.
• 21:59
  So, yeah.
• 22:00
  And, and there is, there is work underway.
• 22:02
  So I mean the United Nations is currently thinking about setting up a nature relationship index.
• 22:09
  To measure country's level of nature, connectedness in order to set targets and drive, drive growth in nature, nature connectedness.
• 22:17
  So it's, it's that, it's that significant.
• 22:19
  Now it, the UN is talking about the Oxford University have just published some recommendations to them and this co and even this government at the moment, right, has just published its environment plan last year, 2025.
• 22:32
  And that talks about.
• 22:34
  The how essential it is for every child to be able to connect to nature so that they actually have wonderful actions and commitments for that.
• 22:43
  And they also have commitments for access to nature.
• 22:45
  And I think it's worth a little footnote here, that access to nature and contact with nature.
• 22:50
  In other words, like how often are you outside somewhere? For how long, those kinds of things.
• 22:56
  That's traditionally been the way that we've measured like human nature relationship.
• 23:01
  Um, but just being outside somewhere passively like, I'm gonna walk through the park on the way to work, or I'm gonna go for a run with my headphones on.
• 23:08
  I'm gonna walk the dog.
• 23:09
  They're really good for our health, really good for physical health, really good for mental health, but they don't give you any of the benefits I've just described.
• 23:17
  They don't give you the pro environmental, pro nature behavior or the pro-social or the worthwhile life or the self-esteem and the confidence and the other things that actually nature connectedness provides.
• 23:28
  So, um, it's not just about passively being somewhere, it's about engaging with it, having, 'cause it's a relationship, right? Um, if, you know, me and my wife could be in the same house and we might.
• 23:39
  Glance at each other twice a day.
• 23:40
  Well, that's a kind of a measure of contact.
• 23:42
  It's not very meaningful.
• 23:44
  But actually, if we can get on well and relate and have fun and you know, enjoy each other's company and stuff, then that's the connectedness bit and that's the bit that's going to keep us healthy and happy.
• 23:54
  So yeah, you could apply, you could apply the same, same logic really to our relationship with nature.
• 23:59
  So I'm thinking when you're talking about a relationship with nature, it is things like, um, and I'm thinking about the conversation with James Metcalf, but he was talking about taking people out in nature, but in order to engage with it.
• 24:11
  And he was using things like apps and, and many people have had like Merlin or different sort of apps to identify things, but ways of making people stop or getting people to pick up the leaves and look at them or pick something up and look at it and find meaning in it.
• 24:25
  Um.
• 24:26
  Possibly just even things like going out and doing our gardening.
• 24:29
  I, I'm just wondering what, you know, contact with nature, trying to think of the different, um, scenarios of what they might be and how we can extend our dog walk or our sitting in the garden to become something a little bit more of a relationship.
• 24:43
  That is, that is exactly what we need to do.
• 24:46
  The big part of the work, for example, that we did with.
• 24:50
  The NHS trust, um, in Kent, and we've worked for other trusts as well, is okay, we can, we can create a garden for you.
• 24:58
  But if it's just a place to have a quick fact break and dive back in again or be on your phone scrolling, it's probably not gonna work as hard as it could in terms of benefits.
• 25:08
  Right.
• 25:09
  Um, so what are the little prompts and, you know, how could you stimulate like an engagement with that place? How do you create sound, for example, that you can't ignore running water or places where birds are gonna gather that you, that, that you can naturally be attracted to? Um, how can you create.
• 25:26
  Pause that might be fun and engaging and different so that you are kind of forced to actually notice what you are doing and be aware, right? It's about awareness, isn't it? Um, there's all sorts of tricks and, and ways that can be done there.
• 25:40
  And they had a, had a garden where they occupational therapists would take.
• 25:44
  Service users at times, and it was a great space.
• 25:47
  Unfortunately, you know, it was only available to a limited number of, um, parts of their estate, but fantastic space.
• 25:53
  And they had these little signs hanging in the trees like, can you hear a bird? Or whatever.
• 25:58
  And it's interesting, the National Trust have done a big re redo of all of their comms materials.
• 26:04
  If you go to a National Trust site now, very, very different.
• 26:09
  Innovation experience than it would've been five years ago.
• 26:12
  So they've, they've used the science and nature connectedness.
• 26:15
  They've worked with some really important people in that field, and they've radically overhauled the way that they, uh, get people to engage with their state.
• 26:22
  So it's all around this, like, you know, how does it feel, like, what, what are the senses that are coming up for you like.
• 26:28
  What might it mean for you? This plant or this, this vista, this view, you know, so, so it's using the, what we call the sort of the five pathways to nature, connectedness and, and, and just engaging people in a really different, more imaginative way.
• 26:41
  But you and I can do it just, you know, I say to my clients sometimes it's great you go for a run next time, just.
• 26:47
  Don't put your headphones on, see what happens, or, you know, you can, if you're gonna go and go to the park, um, with the dog, um, let the dog run around for a bit, sit on a bench and, and, and see if you can hear some birds.
• 27:00
  It's kind of as simple as that, but it's amazing, isn't it, that we just don't, we're so distracted off.
• 27:05
  Most of the time we've got devices that are calling us and like.
• 27:10
  Dragging us into their world.
• 27:12
  So it can be difficult.
• 27:12
  I get that.
• 27:13
  Which is why we published our little book of practices, for example.
• 27:16
  So you can leave your phone at home, take that outside and have some prompts of, of ways to engage, uh, with nature that are all evidence-based, but, but fun and imaginative and people can make up their own as well, you know, of course.
• 27:29
  This podcast is all about collective voices.
• 27:32
  So if you're enjoying it, please subscribe and share it across your networks, your friends, your family, your colleagues.
• 27:39
  This way we can amplify the voice, share the stories further, and it will help to keep the podcast going.
• 27:45
  Now back to the conversation.
• 27:49
  Thinking back to my childhood, and my daughter's really good with the, my granddaughters are taking her out.
• 27:53
  You know, we do that naturally as children anyway.
• 27:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:57
  So long as, you know, and perhaps we've done it more as children because we didn't have the devices, so maybe now we need to make that concerted effort almost, which seems a bit odd.
• 28:05
  But actually we probably do.
• 28:07
  You know, and I always think when I'm saying to people, don't forget to listen to my pop.
• 28:10
  Cast and things, I always think, but not, not when you're going for a walk, not when you're in the woods.
• 28:14
  You know, do it when you're in the car or something.
• 28:16
  Or driving when you're doing your housework.
• 28:18
  You know? So, because otherwise, you know, as much as I want people to listen, obviously I also, you know, you want, want people to engage with, with nature and things.
• 28:27
  You've told us quite a bit here, and you've told me, I told us quite a bit about how you'd done the work in Kent and Midway, and you did say at the beginning about working with people.
• 28:36
  But also working with organizations and wider.
• 28:38
  So do you want to tell us a little bit more about what it is that you actually do, James and, um Yeah, and the Im, or perhaps some of the projects that you've done and the impact that they've had.
• 28:47
  It'd be really nice to hear.
• 28:48
  Yeah, sure.
• 28:49
  Where to start.
• 28:50
  So, I mean, the Consultancy's a relatively young one, but what we've, we've done, we work with I think three NHS trusts and that work was really helping them think strategically about.
• 29:03
  Where, where nature shows up, um, for their serv in their services and in their strategy.
• 29:09
  All NHS trusts now need to have a green plan.
• 29:12
  Saving energy.
• 29:14
  Uh, all of that stuff is absolutely vital.
• 29:16
  The very en energy hungry, um, sector, isn't it? Um, for example, that's part of the green plan.
• 29:23
  Thinking about transport, thinking about materials, use, all of that stuff.
• 29:26
  But green plans are also about.
• 29:28
  The NHS estate.
• 29:29
  I mean, the NHS has a huge landholding and it has buildings with courtyards and roofs and so on, all of which provide opportunities to enhance biodiversity.
• 29:39
  Uh, and we've talked, you know, we know, we know the benefits of, of that, all sorts of all services in inver commas that we can get from healthy natural biodiverse landscapes.
• 29:50
  Um.
• 29:52
  So the work we did was, was thinking about, well, how, where are there opportunities to bring more nature into the estate, for example? Um, and where are there opportunities to take work outside into those spaces so that clinical work can be done perhaps better, uh, with greater benefits.
• 30:13
  Um, in a way that's connected to nature.
• 30:16
  The um, chief executive of the Cornwall NHS Trust has said that I think by 2030 they want 50% of services to be delivered outdoors.
• 30:26
  I mean, that's wonderful and extremely ambitious.
• 30:29
  Um, but kind of in a way takes us back to like how we used to work in the health service, um, and nature allied work rather than sort of hermetically sealed off from this sort of thing out there.
• 30:40
  That, which is kinda where we are a lot of the time.
• 30:43
  So that was the kind of work we've done and the trust since that we, since we delivered that project for them.
• 30:47
  Started to put some of that into, into practice.
• 30:50
  So starting to grow, grow, create growing groups to connect up different parts of the trust so that need services that other parts can provide.
• 30:59
  For example, you know, there were, we went to visit, um, so in, in, uh, inpatient, if you like, units, um, where they were doing skills development with people, make, um, restoring or.
• 31:11
  Refurbishing secondhand furniture and making things, and it was fantastic skills project, but they were making things like raised beds or planters.
• 31:20
  And then there were other parts of the trust that desperately needed raised beds and planters.
• 31:24
  Uh, and so thinking about, so how do you connect that up in a large, complex organization so that you can create circularity, build skills, grow skills, and also do good things for nature? And, um, for healthcare.
• 31:37
  So that was, that was that kind of work.
• 31:39
  Um, we did a piece of work for a large corporate who had a central London glass and steel office, and we helped them reimagine their internal spaces.
• 31:50
  So also called biophilic design.
• 31:54
  Um, it comes from, uh, comes from the, the word biophilia, which, um, make popularized by a Harvard.
• 32:02
  A scientist called Edward Wilson.
• 32:04
  But this idea that we've got an innate, innate tendency to be drawn to nature, to affiliate with nature, um, and that goes back to our evolutionary history, you know, 2 million years, the savanna and our origins.
• 32:16
  You know, if, if you put your arms out wide, the distance between your fingers, let's say represents.
• 32:23
  Humanity.
• 32:25
  Um, about halfway down the, your forearm, you, you, let's say start on the tip of your left hand, you get halfway down your right forearm.
• 32:36
  That's roughly when homo sapiens arrives.
• 32:38
  The rest of that time is homoerectus.
• 32:40
  Very, very similar to the hunter gatherer, the industrial human, which is like.
• 32:45
  We are now right on this screen with a camera and a microphone and a light, all that.
• 32:49
  Yes.
• 32:49
  That's the rough skin on my right hand finger.
• 32:52
  So, you know, for the vast, vast, vast, um, era of our evolution, we have lived in and amongst natural places.
• 33:01
  Um.
• 33:03
  Like Savannah, like habitats for example.
• 33:05
  So what I'm saying it, what am I saying? I'm saying that we can think we can bring that thinking and that understanding into the way that we work and, and perhaps then we will do better work and health, have healthier employees.
• 33:17
  Uh, that's kind of good for companies.
• 33:18
  Bottom line as well, isn't it? Um, but we can also do that in a way that makes for more nature rich spaces.
• 33:25
  So we did a, a study looking at some biophilic design for, for them.
• 33:30
  So that's kind of the consulting work.
• 33:32
  And then in my, um, coaching work, uh, my focus really is on training coaches to work in a more nature-based way.
• 33:40
  Um, taking their work outside.
• 33:42
  It's kind of similar to Ecotherapy in a way, except it's coaching, not therapy, and then coaching clients one-to-one and, and developing resources and materials for people.
• 33:52
  So one of the things I've developed is a, for a DHD clients, I have a lot of A DHD clients, um, is A-A-D-H-D Nature toolkit.
• 34:00
  There's something they can take outside of them.
• 34:02
  It's got some.
• 34:03
  Very simple mindfulness practices, uh, a few prompts, um, some information and just as an encouragement really to, um, do the kind of things that we've been talking about on our, on our pod here.
• 34:16
  Um, and then finally the other thing I'm, I'm really, uh, spending quite a lot of time and energy on at the moment, is trying to influence some government thinking that's underway.
• 34:27
  Um, so if you like, we can, we can talk a bit about that kind of piece of work that the government's commissioned, um, that really needs to benefit from some of these nature insights and, and currently and currently doesn't.
• 34:39
  You, you preempted me there, James.
• 34:41
  'cause my next question was what, what needs to happen? So, you've spoken a bit about the government plan.
• 34:47
  You know, you spoke about every child needs to connect with nature, um, and have access and contact with nature.
• 34:54
  And you spoke about.
• 34:55
  The NHS has to, you know, has to have this green, has to have their green plan.
• 35:00
  Uh, which was something that I knew about, but many people don't.
• 35:03
  It was only 'cause I've, I've heard somebody talking about it and you've spoken about sort of even big corporations as well actually starting to, to do some of these things.
• 35:12
  So whether or not there's something behind that.
• 35:14
  But my question was going to be what, what needs to happen so that the UK be.
• 35:20
  'cause I presume that's where you're working.
• 35:21
  I know you've lived elsewhere, so it might not be the uk, but what needs to happen in order for us to become more connected to nature and perhaps, um, you know, make sure that we go up that nature related index that you spoke about that the UN has put together for countries? So, yeah, it's a good question.
• 35:40
  Uh, it's, it's hard question to answer very simply because it is so complex, right? Nature touches on everything that.
• 35:49
  We do and hold dear and find important and depend on for our survival.
• 35:54
  Um, the, the first thing is that we, we probably have enough evidence now and enough science and enough data.
• 36:02
  A lot of that evidence, major reports have taken years by hundreds of scientists around the world, you know, are concluding that.
• 36:10
  We can change things in the words of this, um, national inter intergovernmental panel called it best Transformative change is possible.
• 36:19
  It's, it's urgent.
• 36:19
  It's challenging, but it's possible.
• 36:21
  So I think the first thing is know that it's possible to change.
• 36:24
  And sometimes that's a really hard thing to wrap your head around.
• 36:27
  You know, you've been listening to the news so often.
• 36:29
  We are told it's not.
• 36:31
  Yeah.
• 36:32
  We listen to the news in the mornings.
• 36:33
  I, so I often turn it off 'cause I just can't, you know, it is hard.
• 36:38
  Um.
• 36:39
  But we can change.
• 36:40
  So I think the first, it starts with a belief.
• 36:43
  Um, and that belief, I think for decision makers probably needs to come from an ex reawakened experience again.
• 36:52
  We talked about that earlier on then that we've got enough evidence and we, we've proven that the benefits outweigh the costs.
• 36:59
  I think the, uh, latest assessment was seven tr you know, organizations globally are spending 7 trillion pounds damaging nature.
• 37:07
  The annual benefit.
• 37:09
  If we could restore the relationships between businesses, governments, society, and nature is 10 trillion.
• 37:15
  A year, so, so, you know, and you know, countless reports are saying very similar things, so there's, we know enough it works, I think.
• 37:23
  Then so how do you do it? I think you have to, I mean there's a recent study that that sort of underlined this.
• 37:30
  You do need to go back to kind of the what's below the tip of the iceberg, the top of the iceberg.
• 37:35
  What's harming nature is urbanization or the wrong kind of urbanization.
• 37:40
  Um, eco economic, uh, economic drivers, you know, disproportionate and unequal economic drivers.
• 37:48
  Climate, climate impacts, those kinds of things.
• 37:51
  Fossil fuel use that.
• 37:52
  That's sort of the tip of the iceberg.
• 37:54
  Below the water is a load of stuff that we don't often talk about.
• 37:57
  That's spiritual.
• 37:59
  It's relational.
• 38:00
  It's emotional, it's felt, right? So how do we start to create conversations with society and with publics about.
• 38:09
  The how it feels.
• 38:10
  How it feels to be losing things and seeing things being lost, or realizing things are being lost, how it feels to have a wonderful experience with nature again.
• 38:19
  And I think that that's kind of where I.
• 38:22
  I think that's where we're at at the moment.
• 38:24
  The evidence is, is vital.
• 38:26
  It all needs to follow up though that spiritual, relational felt sense of, of nature connection and there's, there's lots of great work in that space and I'm doing what I can with the little that, you know, relatively little that I've, that I've got to try and influence it.
• 38:43
  But I, I see great people doing great stuff in this space all the time that we don't talk about, we don't celebrate.
• 38:48
  'cause we, you know, we've got a negativity bias and we look, tend to look for the bad news.
• 38:52
  There's so much good news in this space and there are countries that are doing it better than us that we can learn from.
• 38:57
  And there are parts of this country that are doing things fantastic, fantastic things that we could all, we could all learn from too.
• 39:04
  What I've really liked there is actually know that we can change because we, we only ever hear the bad news, don't we? Mm-hmm.
• 39:10
  For some reason, um, news tends to be bad.
• 39:14
  I dunno why they don't share good news, but it's never the thing that we can hear.
• 39:18
  So I think that's really nice and that sort of comes to where you've talked about that iceberg.
• 39:22
  There's all that stuff that we can see that's going on.
• 39:24
  That actually underneath, if we can, essentially what you're talking about is hearts and minds trying to get people to feel and think and that, but that doesn't come without a belief that we can change.
• 39:34
  Yeah.
• 39:34
  Because if we don't believe it can happen, then it might almost feel pointless.
• 39:39
  Um, right.
• 39:40
  And I know, I've had conversations with people that have said to me, well, what's the point if it's not gonna make any difference? You know? So, um.
• 39:47
  And so we need people to be able to believe and understand that.
• 39:51
  But I know I might be challenging you.
• 39:53
  I'm gonna just go ask you another question.
• 39:54
  'cause you said there's countries, but there's also parts of this country where people are doing amazing things.
• 40:00
  And it sounds to me, I think what.
• 40:02
  What you are doing sounds amazing, but obviously you are aware of other things that are happening, so I wonder if you would just want to perhaps share one of those stories about something that's happening and, and the difference it's making.
• 40:12
  It doesn't have to be long, but yeah, just to give us a bit of an idea of something so that we can think, oh, actually, yeah, that, that's great to hear that's happening.
• 40:19
  And that might help us to get that, that hearts and minds, that spiritual emotional unfelt bit that you're talking about to sort of engage.
• 40:27
  Yeah.
• 40:27
  Okay.
• 40:28
  Um.
• 40:28
  I mean, there's so much, it's hard to pick, but I, the thing I'll pick, I think is green social prescribing.
• 40:34
  Yeah.
• 40:34
  And I'm not, I'm not hands-on in this space, but I, but I do know about it.
• 40:38
  It's very relevant and linked to, to the sort of wider ecosystem I've tried to describe.
• 40:44
  I think for, for listeners to, to know that, you know, after many, many years of, of, of, of lobbying and reports and evidence gathering, um, the UK government's.
• 40:57
  Published, uh, you know, uh, the findings of a set of pilots that were run into green social prescribing.
• 41:03
  So we've had social prescribing for a while.
• 41:06
  Um, we've had community.
• 41:10
  Um, engagement in greening for decades, um, has been, especially in the voluntary sector, fantastic initiatives.
• 41:18
  Trust for conservative volunteer trust for conservation volunteers, for example.
• 41:23
  Uh, and their amazing work, which I was involved in like very early nineties.
• 41:28
  Um.
• 41:29
  They've now put the two together and worked out, unsurprisingly, that getting people outside is really good for their mental health and physical health.
• 41:36
  If, if, if that's a, a challenge for them.
• 41:39
  And it is for so much of our population, I think 43 4%, something like that of us will have a mental health challenge to some point in our lives.
• 41:48
  I think those a certain neurodivergent, it goes up to about 50% or maybe a bit more, uh, mental health costs.
• 41:55
  The NHS about.
• 41:57
  It costs, sorry, costs the country, the economy of the uk, about 5% of GDP 118 million, I think it is.
• 42:04
  Something like that.
• 42:05
  And physical health.
• 42:05
  Yeah.
• 42:06
  A bunch more on top of that.
• 42:08
  Sorry.
• 42:08
  Billion physical health.
• 42:10
  A bunch more on top of that.
• 42:11
  So, um, green subscribing essentially concluded its pilots.
• 42:15
  It was found to be cost beneficial.
• 42:17
  I think returning something like, uh, one.
• 42:23
  One and a bit to three and a bit pounds for every pound spent.
• 42:26
  All sorts of huge benefits for mental health, wellbeing, anxiety, depression down, et cetera.
• 42:32
  Um, getting people back into work, uh, who might not be in work as well.
• 42:37
  So, um, GPS can now, you know, and this is not widespread yet, but it is starting to grow.
• 42:43
  GPS can now, um.
• 42:45
  Send, uh, patients to providers for, uh, green, some kind of green activity.
• 42:51
  So it could be a, it could be green health walks, could be some kind of conservation tasks that are good for nature and good for people.
• 42:58
  Gets people together, chatting in community and so on.
• 43:02
  So, you know that it's kind of still at that end, it's at the healthcare end.
• 43:06
  It's somebody's had a problem and we're trying to get them better, and that's incredibly important.
• 43:11
  Um, we also need the other end, which is the prevention piece.
• 43:14
  Uh, as a.
• 43:16
  Great study published last year, two and a half million.
• 43:19
  They studied two and a half million, well shadow adults over 10 years.
• 43:22
  And they mapped where they live, uh, which of them went to the GP for a common mental health condition and how green the neighborhood was and how much access, how easy it was to access and how much leisure time they spent outdoors.
• 43:34
  And the correlation was, was, was incredibly strong.
• 43:37
  So unsurprisingly, given I'm talking about it, you know, the greener the neighborhood and the more access to nature.
• 43:44
  The lower the referrals for mental health, uh, disorders to gps, um, which is obviously saving money and is good for people.
• 43:52
  Yes.
• 43:53
  Um, so the other end of it is we need to, we need to in increase access so the government's got a target that.
• 43:59
  That everyone can leave their front door on foot and reach a natural green space within 15 minutes walk, uh, about a third.
• 44:07
  Slightly.
• 44:08
  More of people can't do that at the moment.
• 44:11
  So there is work to do to improve access.
• 44:13
  That's something that we can all contribute to.
• 44:15
  We can get together in our communities, we can.
• 44:17
  Plant up verges, we can take over grotty corners and, and turn them into gardens.
• 44:22
  We can fight for green spaces to be saved from inappropriate development.
• 44:26
  So there are things that we can do that have agency and the government needs to facilitate.
• 44:31
  And then there's that broader piece of like, okay, well that's the access bit covered.
• 44:34
  But once you are there, what are you doing? And how do we encourage people to connect and engage and notice nature when they are outdoors, which we've, we've talked about too.
• 44:43
  So, yeah, so there's, and there's great, great.
• 44:47
  Individual projects in that space, but nothing yet that's really, I think, big enough and systemic enough to really tip us over, which is why I've been trying to, um, influence this, uh, government review.
• 44:58
  So, can I talk about that for a minute? I'm gonna keep going.
• 45:01
  You may.
• 45:01
  Yes.
• 45:04
  So in December, um, the Secretary of State Health announced an independent review into mental health, A DHD, and autism.
• 45:13
  And you might remember the headlines were quite negative at the time.
• 45:18
  There was a bit of a kickback.
• 45:19
  It felt like there were some myths being propagated, such as, you know, um, A DHD is overdiagnosed, uh, you know, it's not real.
• 45:31
  Um, and so on.
• 45:33
  And um.
• 45:35
  So this review's a really important review.
• 45:36
  If we bust those myths, that's really important.
• 45:39
  Um, and if we can do anything to bring down waiting times for diagnosis, waiting times to be seen by mental health practitioners.
• 45:49
  I have colleagues who work in, in, in, in, in mental health that are.
• 45:56
  Struggling on their knees, you know, got their, their colleagues off sick and long-term absence.
• 46:01
  They don't have enough people.
• 46:03
  They're not able to give the care to their, um, patients and service users that they want to.
• 46:08
  So anything the review can do to improve that is, is, is good and really important.
• 46:13
  The review at the moment doesn't touch on anything that we've talked about on this pod in terms of the connection between access to nature and connection to nature and health.
• 46:25
  And if you can think about that Welsh project, right? This is mainstream long-term population studies, very clearly demonstrating that.
• 46:34
  Neighborhood greening makes a massive difference to the mental health of a, of a population of people.
• 46:41
  That's a huge missed trick.
• 46:43
  It's an, it's an own goal, I think is how I describe it.
• 46:46
  So, um, I've been, uh, written to the lead professors.
• 46:51
  It's called Professor Funy.
• 46:52
  Uh, any of your listeners might like to write to 'em as well.
• 46:55
  And there's a couple of other professors as well who are leading this review hall load of working groups.
• 47:00
  They're underway.
• 47:01
  Um, but we really do need to bring some influence to bear and see if we can't just join up government.
• 47:07
  Actually, we've got bits of a bit of government here doing this work on this service review, and we've got other parts of government with compelling facts and evidence and things ready to go on nature and we just need to join it up.
• 47:19
  So, um, that's, I'm trying to put my voice to that a bit at the moment.
• 47:22
  I don't have skin in the game.
• 47:24
  I'm not after a job.
• 47:26
  I just want to, um.
• 47:28
  See if I can't challenge people to think a bit differently and join up what's already there so that we can make a bigger difference.
• 47:33
  Well, that's certainly really good work.
• 47:35
  And that's the thing that I love.
• 47:36
  'cause whenever I have people on this podcast, so often people have got a passion and, and just doing it because, not for any reason you say they don't want any money, but this is just really important work.
• 47:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:46
  So certainly we can put links in the chats about what to who, to, who it is to write to and what to write to them as well.
• 47:52
  Um, so if people.
• 47:54
  Feel that way or if there's anything that they can actually go to and you know, there might be a template, whatever it is, I don't know.
• 48:00
  But it'd be really useful for people to have something.
• 48:02
  And I'm just thinking actually, 'cause I'm a Rotarian as well, and certainly within Rotary they have one, there's seven areas and one of them is around, um, is around the environment.
• 48:13
  So, um, I'm, they have a direct membership now as well as a, um, so I don't actually belong to a club.
• 48:19
  I'm direct.
• 48:20
  Of part of the UK bit, but I listened to the, um, their podcast sometimes and there's quite a lot of work that they're doing around green spaces.
• 48:28
  And um, it was mainly along the Thames that they were talking about, both in, in London removing plastic, but also on the esry.
• 48:35
  And I was quite interested 'cause coming from South End as well.
• 48:38
  So I started in therapy, but we moved to South end later on.
• 48:41
  Um, and they're replanting all the, um.
• 48:44
  The, the grass is on the marshland or you know, as well.
• 48:47
  And I'd noticed strangely enough, really, I said to my husband at the time, we went before, oh, it looks greener out there.
• 48:52
  But actually that had come and it was rotary that were leading that work.
• 48:56
  So I think there's lots of people that are doing good work like that.
• 48:59
  So, um, but at sometimes it's just about finding out and then having that influence, as you say, that's really important.
• 49:06
  On government makes so much, um, difference because if we can influence governments and they start to put it into their strategies, then as you've already said, there's already some strategies where it's coming through, but there's others where they, where things could really be thought about and that could be included as well.
• 49:23
  So yeah.
• 49:24
  Thank you.
• 49:24
  You're welcome.
• 49:26
  So I'm just gonna ask, uh, James, I know you've said that bit, maybe that was your final message, but is there a final message or a call to action or anything that you'd like to say to people before we finish our conversation today? Um, well, um, I guess we can put some links to things, um, which I'm happy to do.
• 49:43
  Um, yes, in the notes, I think, um, a call to action would be get outside and notice nature dot start.
• 49:52
  Tonight, it's not dark yet, or, uh, start tomorrow.
• 49:56
  Um, and whatever you can do in whatever way you can do it is, is, is fine.
• 50:01
  And, and that is yours.
• 50:03
  That is yours and your opportunity.
• 50:05
  So that's what I'd, I'd start with, start with connecting with nature and finding your own relationship again, or strengthening it if you already have it.
• 50:15
  Whatever way works for you.
• 50:17
  And then everything else comes from that.
• 50:20
  That's a really lovely ending message, James.
• 50:22
  So thank you so much for joining me today.
• 50:25
  Thank you.
• 50:25
  It's been, um, a real pleasure to talk to you.
• 50:27
  Thank you.
• 50:28
  Yeah, it's been lovely.
• 50:28
  I've loved the conversation.
• 50:29
  Thanks, Ruth.
• 50:30
  Yes, yes.
• 50:30
  It's been really interesting.
• 50:32
  I really appreciate it.
• 50:33
  Well, thanks for there.
• 50:34
  Bye.
• 50:35
  Bye.
• 50:38
  I hope today's conversation gave you something to think about.
• 50:41
  If it did, please share it with someone.
• 50:43
  Ripples matter.
• 50:44
  You can also follow the show so you don't miss future episodes, and if you have reflections or ideas, then please leave a rating or to support my work.
• 50:53
  Head over to my link tree, which you can find in the show notes.
• 50:57
  But for now, stay caring, stay connected.
• 51:00
  Stay curious.
• 51:01
  Thanks for listening.
• 51:05
  Hi.
• 51:05
  Thanks for staying to the end.
• 51:06
  I hope that that means that you enjoyed the conversation.
• 51:08
  I did, and I know James did too.
• 51:10
  I just wanna say we talk a lot about nature as if it's somewhere else, somewhere out there and beyond us, but as James reminded us, we are part of it and we always have been.
• 51:21
  And maybe we've just started to.
• 51:23
  Disconnect and we need to think about how we reconnect again.
• 51:27
  So as you go about your day, just an invitation to pause.
• 51:31
  Notice something, whether it's a leaf, whether it's the breeze and the change in the air, or just the sound of the birds singing.
• 51:38
  As you notice that, see how it feels.
• 51:41
  And until next time.