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Your Rights at Work: The Employment Law Changes You Need to Know · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a working mom with over 17 years of experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
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• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success as children, their founders of balance, the challenges they face and how to overcome them.
• 0:40
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• 0:43
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• 0:49
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• 0:50
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• 0:58
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• 1:05
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• 1:07
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• 1:12
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• 1:15
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• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're back to the show.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Monthly podcast.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Today I am chatting with Josie Hill, who is the founder and managing partner of Thrive Law, which is a specialised um employment law firm.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going to be talking today about something really topical, really important, the new Employers Employment Rights Act and what it means for you as an individual and also what it means for employers as well.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't think of a better person to talk us through this new legislation than Joe Day.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for joining me today.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having me.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot to go through.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot to go through, but it's really important.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I think it's really important that people know their rights, but also businesses know their obligations as well.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: So what are the most important um upcoming changes to UK employment law that individuals should actually care about, not just know about?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: So what should they care about?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, definitely the fact that the day one rights, well, I say day one, it's what was called the day one rights is coming in, which effectively is at the moment you have to be employed for two years before you have any unfair dismissal rights, and that's changing to six months.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: And why this is important is it gives so many more people employment law rights.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: And as we know, a lot of individuals they will um start a new job, maybe it doesn't work out, and then they leave.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: They'll start a new job, maybe it doesn't work out, then they leave.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: And employers have the mindset of, well, I've got two years, got two years to manage this.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: So from an employee's perspective, knowing that after at the six-month point, you have the right to bring a claim for unfair dismissal if it's for one of the unfair reasons.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's really, really relevant.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's the shortest time frame we've ever had in employment law ever.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: We we had uh God, years before even I started practicing, we had one year as the qualifying period.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: But this six months um is is really, really significant because it gives so many more people rights much, much earlier.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, another one is about the time limits.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: So currently you have three months to bring a claim and they're extending that to six months.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Again, significant because it's giving a bigger pool of people access to justice.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: So what we're likely to see here is more people bringing claims, particularly those who perhaps have been on maternity leave or have been ill with a disability and couldn't bring the claim within three months, perhaps.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Think about if that is relevant to you once the changes come in.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think it's from January next year.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: Once those changes come in, um, individually it will apply immediately.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, it's not a oh, you then have to wait until this point, there's not a transitional period like there was when we were when we changed the um legislation into the Equality Act.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: There was this kind of transitional period.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: There isn't that for this.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: So similarly, like you know, if you're employed now, um by the time the law changes, this unfair dismissal change in continuous service will apply to you.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: So if you've only been employed six months, it'll apply to you then.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's another significant one for individuals.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think another one is around um zero hours.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: So you might have seen in the media about oh, they're banning zero hours.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they're not.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: What they're doing is um really tightening this up.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: So what's being requested is that employers think about and actually articulate and agree a set minimum number of hours.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than this like unlimited zero hours position that lots of people find themselves in, it's a it's a level of commitment.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that will um that will change um as well.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um what else is there?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sick pay.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: Sick pay's changed a lot.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we've had the uh we've already had sick pay changes come in, which means it's it's a day one right now.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have the waiting days.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the lower earnings limits being removed as well, which actually helps for those individuals who are perhaps part-time or on a lower income.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what's sick is it statutory sick pay they get or?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, statutory sick pay.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: So again, that the the rates for that are on the government website and they change periodically.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's two twice a year, April and October.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: But effectively that means that you're entitled to SSP from the first day of your sickness rather than having to wait and go and get a fit note.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really relevant for employees again, because um, prior to that, you unless you had company sick pay, you didn't get anything for those first three days.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: And we all know like most illnesses where we take time off, where it's not related to a disability, it's usually like one or two days, isn't it?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if you've got a really bad cold or whatever.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: So so that means that there's a bit more.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's not a lot, but it's the step in a right in the right direction.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what else would I say?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'd say there's there's some there's some changes around fire and rehigar and collective consultation, but effectively all that means is that employees' rights are being strengthened when it comes to or redundancies, um, so that employers can't, I suppose, like strong arm the individual by saying, well, if you don't accept this change of contract, then you'll be sacked.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: The idea is to remove that power dynamic, um, or at least at least reduce it um with these changes.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, there's a few.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's quite a lot.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: What about maternity, paternity pay?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Is that changing?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: So there's not um, so in terms of actual pay, the pay, the as in statutory pay, that changes every year.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um as in it's a set statutory amount, similar to sick pay.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: So that that level of pay changes every single year, it goes up, but only only by a small amount.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um in terms of paternity leave, there is access to more paternity uh sorry, paternity leave sooner, um, which is obviously helpful for for fathers because a lot of um fathers they'll start a job and then not be not be able to access paternity leave.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean they want to not spend time with their kids, but they're just not allowed because they don't have the length of service.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, so there's changes relating to that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it's making these statutory provisions more accessible to parents, effectively.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: And when did does all this come in?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it come in or or is it in the so it's a bit it's a bit of a um it's a bit of a roadmap, I would to call it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Some changes have already come in in April, particularly around um yeah, so the April literally just gone.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, April 2026.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, brilliant.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um and these these changes are coming.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's some of them are coming in later this year, some are coming in in January next year.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: So what we'll do is we'll pop a link to the roadmap because some of the dates do change, and the government, you know, they like to change things up and mix mix that we're gonna do.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Keep you busy.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um and interestingly as well, like there's changes to flexible working.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I've been involved in the consultation around flexible working.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, particularly at the moment, I think there's 27 consultations happening to give you context on all the changes that whilst we have a date and we know roughly what the change will be, yeah, the consultations will shape the details.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why I'm kind of purposefully being relatively vague, because there is an element of clarity that's still needed on some of the changes.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so what we'll do is we'll link in the show notes a um link to the government website which has a roadmap on there so you can see the changes when they're coming in.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: And if there's any further clarity added, it will be added there.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, lovely.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: So there's obviously a lot of changes happening.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: How can employers prepare for all this?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously there's a lot more obligations on them as well.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot more obligations.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that we're recommending is to do regular audits of from an ERA perspective, so Employment Rights Act.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: So we call it an ERA audit, it can be like a legal 360, whatever you want to call it.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: But effectively, what you're doing is having a pulse on, you know, what are the changes that are likely to affect my business so that you're aware when they're when they're close to dropping, you then can prioritize making changes around that.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: So an example might be we know the unfair dismissal um laws are changing in January.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: So now, six months before that, we need to be looking at our probation um process, how our managers um manage performance during the probation period, setting people up for success, both the manager and the new starter, so that we're effectively managing people's employment in that first six months.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because if it's not, it tips into the seventh month and they're now eligible to bring a claim from fair dismissal because our managers couldn't be asked or didn't know how or weren't supported on managing that person.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it goes both ways.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: It could actually, in my view, be quite a proactive, I suppose, resource for employers.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you take this as a step of I need to be proactive, I need to change my processes, and I need to really hone in on those first six months and train my managers, it could actually shift the culture of the organization in a positive way.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I think if employers take it in that perspective rather than, oh, there's so much stuff I have to do, because that is a lot of what we're hearing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: If you see it in that way and go, actually, I don't have to do everything straight away, but there are certain things that I can do which will actually help me in the long run anyway.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's where the changes will actually shape positive workplace culture.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one example.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: But as part of the audit, you can also look at things like, well, if people make flexible working requests, how do we know?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Do we have a central place where that's stored?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Do we know the demographic of those people?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Or if we make reasonable adjustments, how do so you can start to look at all these different things.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then when the law is is close to changing, you can prioritize that particular area.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: So an example recently was the sick pay rules change.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it's changing your policies and your process.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um and if it's linked into your contract of employment, changing those clauses so that we're really clear that it's a day one, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: So some things are super quick and easy, other things are more systemic and require some process and mindset changes to get managers where they need to be before the change comes in.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so another example I'd say is around flexible working, where do your managers know how to deal with flexible work and requests?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: And do they know the complexity of if it's flexible working and a reasonable adjustment and how to manage that?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: And are they clear as to what their autonomy is over that process, or do they have to come to HR and then HR approve it?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what is that process?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because so many managers actually don't know, and it they then miss the time frames that it sets out in the policy.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: And this is you know, this is now a process that one is there's a statutory provision behind it, but two, there is a change coming next year that is going to shift more towards the default of we should be working more flexibly.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: So managers need to be equipped with what do they have autonomy to actually approve?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like what can they just approve to move this along rather than everything getting bottlenecked with HR.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a few different processes, and I know I don't want to sound like the process queen here, but actually, if you're really clear on your process and your whether it's a playbook or a flow chart or a policy or uh whatever it is, whatever system you like in your business, be really supportive of your managers and make sure that system is there because it's the managers who are at the front going, I don't know what to say or I don't know what to do.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: I can do the more change.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think that's where employers can really um tone in their preparation in two areas.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: One is policy and process, and the other is manager training and other skilling.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, quite a lot, isn't it?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So flexible working, it's now a day one right, um, right to request.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: But what does this mean in practice?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, yeah, actually what does it mean?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: And are people being misled about this?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think there's a misconception, isn't there, that it's day day one right, so everybody can just have it.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and actually it's a day one right to request it, not to be granted it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a misconception that, well, it's a day one right, and so therefore my employer has to give me what I ask for.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: So employers can still refuse and they have statutory grounds in which they can refuse.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: But what employees should be focusing on is why do I want this flexible working request and giving as much information as possible.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Don't make the assumption that you're going to automatically get it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I think the shift is positive, but it's not, it's not like a silver bullet of like you could just have whatever you want.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: So you need to be mindful that the employer might push back.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: And if they do push back, think about where they might push back.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's usually because of the impact on the service, the team, the cost.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: So think about those things and how you can mitigate that in your request.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because often what will happen is there'll be a pushback, and you can make more than one flexible working request within two years.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, within 12 months, you can make two.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you don't really want to have to make another request because you didn't put all of that information in.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's hard, isn't it?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's load, a lot of like miscommunication happens between employers and employers, and trust starts breaking down.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess just being really clear on what you need and I guess how it also will affect the business and how you'll mitigate that, I think is really helpful.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Employers just say no to a flexible working request.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: What are the risks?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how do they, you know, if they how do they work with this new legislation as well?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: So from an employer's perspective, they have to refuse on one of the statutory, at least one of the statutory grounds.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: So do you want me to go through those to know that would be helpful?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so, yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then I suppose the help of people knowing then how to like phrase a flexible working request as well.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: So um what employers will be looking at when they're refusing is what's the impact in terms of cost, um as I already mentioned, the impact on the customer demand.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if they're unable to reorganize the work amongst the existing staff or they're not able to recruit other people, say you want to go from like five days to two days and they have to recruit for a job share.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, whether it's impact on quality or performance, um, also thinking about um structural changes in the business that that might uh that might cause, especially in a smaller business where they don't have the other resource to pull from, it can be harder to justify the flexible working request.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but also if you want to change, I don't know, say you want to work on a Saturday and Sunday, but the business predominantly operates Monday to Friday, and there's not really much work on those days, that could also be a reason, or you want to work evenings, but they only work during the day, vice versa.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: So again, you really, I suppose the key thing is you're trying to think about like, why do I want it and what's the impact going to be on me?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: And what could the impact be on the team and the customers and everybody else that's within that particular uh if it's a service like that department or if it's a store, that store.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: So thinking about that wider context, because often we get so honed in on why I need it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually thinking about, well, if I can understand why it might be rejected, I can try to mitigate that by by saying, Well, I've spoken to so and so, they're happy to job share.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, it's it's actually thinking about the solutions.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: The solutions, exactly.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not um it's not a a space that employers want to be in refusing them a lot of the time.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think my experience is that there are a lot of employers who want to grant it, but sometimes it's just not possible.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so if if if you're what you're requesting is the only option, fine.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: But also think about what what are your, I suppose, what's your negotiables?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, where could you meet them in the middle?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: So that goes for employers and employees.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: Employers don't necessarily just have to refuse, they could say, well, we can't do that because of X, Y, and Z, but we can do this.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I think I always like to approach it in that way where it's trying to meet in the middle, whether you're an employee or an employer, like don't be so binary in what you want to happen.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: But you said it's changing as well, is it?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: That it's obviously there's lots of consultations happening at the moment.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: And is it going to become more of the default?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: So an employer has to say why this role can't be done flexibly from the outset.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so how how they're approaching it, and I was actually in one of the consultations um late last year, and what we were looking at was the default doesn't mean it's got to be granted immediately.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: The default it shifts the burden.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than the employee saying why I should have it, the employer has to say why it's not reasonable.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so you see that's a slightly different mindset, isn't it?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Because the default is it's reasonable unless the employer says it's not, and the we're and then the employer has to show why it's not reasonable using those examples.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: But interestingly, one of the things that they're looking at as part of the consultation is not just the answer that they give, that the reason for the refusal, but how did they get there?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, what was the process they adopted?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Did they do it in writing?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Did they call the person to a meeting?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so it hasn't been decided yet whether there's going to be some form of a statutory process, like we used to have with grievances.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: It has to go through a statutory process.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's not clear if there will be a requirement for that, but there's a an air of um leading towards this more, I suppose, more consultative approach rather than I'm the employer, I've decided no, this is my answer at the end.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's no appeal process, don't forget, for flexible working.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: So um, or there's no statutory appeal, employers can offer that.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: So again, it's just thinking about as an employer, how can I foresee some of these changes?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, do we want to have, regardless of whether this change comes in in January, there'll be something coming in January.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: We just don't know how heavy it'll be on the process.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: But think about from best practice perspective, surely it makes sense to have a have a meeting to discuss the flexible worker request.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: You don't want to do the exercise on paper unless it's a reasonable adjustment.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: So actually, the stuff that they're suggesting, it kind of makes sense.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, acknowledge in writing that you have that and that you have their requests and when you'll respond.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like some of this is basic stuff, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's good practice.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: But also, if you know that somebody is likely, it's especially if it's likely to be rejected, you want to have that conversation with them so they feel heard.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: And they're much less likely then one to leave uh and two to put a claim in.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because let's not forget with flexible working requests, there's also an indirect discrimination angle from a disability and a uh sex discrimination angle, if you get it wrong, especially if they're saying, you know, I need this as a reasonable adjustment, or I need this because I'm a parent.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so we have to think beyond just yes, there's this statutory um provision, and yes, we should follow a process, but we also have to consider the why as part of that, because it might be that you've refused it on fair grounds under the flexible working rules, but actually there's an indirect claim.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got to think beyond that, and this is where a lot of employers fall down because they can justify refusing it on the flexible working under the flexible working provisions, but actually they've missed that indirect element.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so understanding the reason why from an employer's perspective is super, super important.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Would you recommend they work through that with a with a lawyer or is that small?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: A hundred percent.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and the reason why is because it's so fact-specific and nuanced.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: So this is where we tend to support employers a lot around understanding what's reasonable, because again, reasonableness is a legal question.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: So when we think about whether something is a reasonable adjustment or is reasonably being refused as a flexible working request, those things come through the case law, like the decisions come through the case law.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: And what's reasonable will literally depend on the facts of that particular case.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I hate being that lawyer that's like, it depends, but it really does depend, because what's reasonable in one organization is absolutely not in another.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it might be reasonable in the same organisation, but a different role as well.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: We see this a lot.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: So understanding what those boundaries are requires legal analysis.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you don't have that in your team, you know, this is the type of stuff that we we help employers with all the time.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So would you recommend an employer does this p for a role before having uh someone's even made a flexible working request to actually think could this role be done flexibly?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: If not, why not?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: So they've got all that prepared if they ever should have a flexible working request.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: I love that idea.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think yes, do it, but also you would still have to consider on a factual basis if somebody needs a flexible working request for themselves personally.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: But you'll have already got the business case as to why it can or can't be done flexibly and what those parameters are.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I think certainly um when people put a flexible working request in, they might have a really unique way of approaching the flexibility, which you hadn't thought of.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: But at least if you've got a business case that you can go to for that particular role, that's actually some of the work being done.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: But it also means that you can adopt that mindset in your recruitment process.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: So if you get two people that are both indicating that they might want flexible work, and you're like, oh, we could take both of those on because we've worked out we could do that on a job show.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: We know that that's possible.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: So it enables those managers to have the good discussions very early on.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously, it's a day one right now, so people can ask it on their first day.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: So you've got to be mindful of the fact that that could come day one, and you don't want to be then tied down in legal analysis for several days trying to work that out when you could have done, you know, the majority of whether it's actually workable in that role up front.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you know how you said you offer an audit for employers?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: How do they access that?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because it sounds like that would be good practice.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, they can just email us um at at ThriveLaw.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just the inquiries about ThriveLaw.uk.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: But basically, um, we'll do an initial call for free, talk you through what we need to look at before we do the audit and how it works.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then the audit basically produces a report which gives you like traffic like signal type priorities.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then you can either go do it yourself.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, if you've got an in-house team and you're like, oh, actually, I get how to do most of these things, you can do it yourself, or we can do some stuff, you do some stuff, or we can do it all.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Depends on the type of organization and their appetite for making some of the changes as well.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find your act more for employers or for employees?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it it's about it's about 50-50, you know.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: So as a firm, um, we have a HR retained package, so blocks of hours and retained work that we do for employers.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously, for those companies, we speak to them every day.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then we do a lot of work um for individuals where we're either helping negotiate exits, writing grievances, doing flexible worker requests, um, or litigation, both sides.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it really can depend.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: We do more litigation for employees, um, but that's probably indicative of the fact we advise the employer so they don't get sued.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: But we do still get some some come through who aren't clients who perhaps just come to us for litigation as well.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, it's a bit a bit of a mixture.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: We recently took on a commercial lawyer, so we do now do more employer stuff because we can do obviously different areas of law.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it's interesting.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, it's interesting because you like people ask me this all the time, and actually I I really enjoy the split because it gives you a very different perspective.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um if I'm wearing my employee hat um and take that into when an employer is trying to make a decision, I can almost play devil's advocate because I've seen how it plays out in tribunal, I've seen it go wrong.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas if you only do one area, I think you can you can become a little bit blind to the strategies and the approaches of the other side.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is it and this sounds probably a bit of a personal question, but like, you know, if as individuals listen to this and they think I need legal support, is it really expensive or is there ways?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's obviously a a consideration to a lot for a lot of individuals is how much is it gonna cost.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think it it really depends on like what you want to do.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: So um we we offer lots of different kind of fixed fee options to help.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so for example, if um somebody has written a grievance and they just want us to review it, we could just quote them a fixed fee to review that.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that that then means it, you know, it's a lot less than if we drafted it from scratch for them.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: But it it depends on the level of support that people need.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, of course, it can be expensive if you're running a massive multi-day claim.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you're in tribunal for 10 days, you know, it's gonna it's probably gonna cost a lot of money.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: But equally, it it's it's you we wouldn't run a case unless it's proportionate to the value of the claim.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, there's always a risk that you're not gonna be successful, it's litigation risk in every case.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: But we would never run a case unless we think it's got more than 51% prospect.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like we have a duty to not do that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the other thing that people don't know is that on their legal expenses insurance, on their home insurance, often employment litigation is covered.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really worth checking.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you're in a really sticky situation, um, they will have panel solicitors, but you have the right to choose who you want.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: And we often work with those insurers whereby we'll um agree to a fee with them, and then we basically get paid by the insurer, you don't pay anything.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: So there is this as an option for people if they're thinking to go to like longer term to uh for litigation.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: But if people want like a quick call, we do we do initial free calls for 15 minutes where people can get a bit of a feel for like, do I have a case?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Do I not?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: What should I do?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And our our lawyers will like take the time and talk through the options, and then if they want to go ahead, they get different options working with different levels of lawyers because some people like if I'm working with a partner, they want to work with the partner, you know, they're like, Oh, I want to work at someone at that level.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And other people are like, I just need to sense check.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: Can somebody just check this?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: But um, I think there's a misconception that it's really inaccessible, but it's definitely much more accessible, especially at our firm, because we we I can make the rules on that, so I decide how much we charge.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like obviously we're running a business, but I can be really flexible um with people.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes for me, it's a saving up front because yes, you yes, of course, you're thinking of it as a cost, but if it means that you then get the outcome that you want, and the pay and the payout, you're not gonna settle for something that actually you could have settled for more.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: And also, like sometimes it's a trade-off with happiness as well.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can't get closure sometimes if you don't know whether I should or shouldn't have gone for it.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think sometimes that's a you know, I as someone who struggled with my mental health and had a breakdown and left an employer, I know what it's like to be an employee where I lived and breathed it and it ruined my mental health.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was in I was I'm an employment lawyer and I couldn't bring my own claim because I was so poorly.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I get it.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: I get that it can be all consuming.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes just having someone to sense check, am I going crazy?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Have they treated me like shit?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: Am I allowed to swear for this one?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I'm gonna go.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: My kids say I've got a potty mouth, so don't worry.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it's it's an interesting, it's an interesting time because I think there's certainly a lot more claims happening at the moment, and I think we're gonna see this as the law changes because more people have access to um the rights because of the change in the time limit and the what day one day one rights.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: But also I think more people are aware of their rights as a result.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so the rights they didn't even realize they had.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we've seen like a 95% increase in neurodiversity related case in the last few years.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's no, that's no um surprise given the amount of awareness that we're seeing on social media, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's a correlation there.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: So when you talk a lot about the changes coming, it actually, yes, there's stuff for employers to do, but it also gives rise to yes, additional rights, but awareness of rights that people didn't even know they had, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: So actually, talking about that, is there some rights that working parents have that maybe they don't realise they have, especially those returning from maternity, paternity leave?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so statutory um, so it was so for redundancy, like protection, there was the um maternity leave extension, which I thought was a really good one.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: So basically what that means is when you come back from maternity leave, your position is protected.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and now comes for up to 18 months after the baby's expected birth date.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really significant.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's good.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: When you're when you're coming back from Matley, the last thing you need to be doing is stressing out about do I still have my job or not.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're very vulnerable at that point.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very vulnerable.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: And also you've been taken out of the workplace.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: So to be part of a competitive process is very difficult if you were to be put through a process.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: So um most people don't realise that you have the right when you come back to your job that you left.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you and if there is a competitive process, you should be offered that job, not put in a process, but offered it.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: It is the only area of law where we have this like positive discrimination because ordinarily you would have to go through a process.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: This would have benefited me because I was made redundant after maternity leave and put in a process straight away.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: So you should you should be offered that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's regulation 10 of the maternity regulations.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: You should be offered offered that um role or something suitable.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if that role doesn't exist anymore.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's good.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a bit like if you because people were, I think when I was made redundant, going on six years ago now, um, that wasn't the case, was it?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: But people that were on maternity leave or pregnant were protected, but I wasn't coming back.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so so it's not changed it now.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so it's changing that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you get to return to the same job.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then um the other one that I think is interesting is around kit days.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: So you'll have used your kit days, which are keeping in touch days.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um people don't realise that they're supposed to be paid for those.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: One, and two, that they don't have to use them.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: So so they're optional, they're voluntary, like they're for you to keep in touch.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: You should be paid for them.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, if you if you take like half a day, you're supposed to be paid for the full day, they are kit days.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: You don't just take a kit three hours.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: So um you also shouldn't lose your SMP as a result.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: So the whole point is that you can receive your SMP, you set a statutory maternity.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so you get a bounce of them.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you'd be paid in full as your normal salary for those days.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you shouldn't be like employers shouldn't be pressuring people to take them for operational reasons, they should be agreed um to to basically help them the mother come back to work and really like reintegrate.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, like we use them to invite people to like team meetings so they get to see the team or you know, things where there's something a little bit less worky and more collaborative.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's just about and and actually the other thing that they're really helpful for is upskilling.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: So if people are in a very technical job, is there any training that they could you do on those days to help them feel like they're coming back with uh you know, with some skills because they feel like they're oh, I've been out for a year, like I don't know what I'm doing.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: So giving them that like technical grounding, kit days are really good for that.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's good, and that's something you know for employers as well.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I say I think you know, employees sometimes think someone's been out, what do we get them to do for the odd day?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it can be a bit difficult, actually.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can do some trainings, some team meetings, it's quite it gives them a bit of a framework as well.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely, and then the other thing I'd say is about breastfeeding.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've ever spoken about this on the podcast before, but employers have a health and safety duty to carry out risk assessments around breastfeeding.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's interesting.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: I've actually got uh one of my lawyers who's just come back from maternity leave um earlier this year, and one of the things that we were really conscious about doing was if we had like a leadership meeting, could she come?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, um, could we have another room that she could breastfeed?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Or if she could breastfeed in the same room as us, that's she is fine with that.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: But as in, is there the space for her to do that and could she bring her child with her?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because actually that was something that she wanted to do because it made it made her feel better.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and she was breastfeeding every two hours, and she and and the baby wasn't taking the the bottle, yeah.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's thinking about like actually how how can we accommodate that so that people still feel included in those meetings, and we were able to work it so that she came for part of the meeting, breastfed.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: We we did that to get that bit together, and then she left.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, another time we did it, and her partner and we did a meeting at her house, and her partner was in the other room with the baby, and then it was just about being super flexible.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying that we have to all go into each other's houses, but it's we tried to work out what was the best thing for us so that she felt included, but also could do what she needs to do to help a child.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so there is that as well.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we've already mentioned flexible working, I think that's another big thing for them.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: What about fertility um and miscarriage leave?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Has anything changed around that or baby loss?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, there is um paid um, it's just a statutory amount.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: I can't remember the exact amount, but there is paid miscarriage leave.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Now it used to be that it was only um parental, I think it was called parental bereavement leave.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it was only for I think it was after 20 26 weeks.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: You could probably put me on the spot now.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I know this wasn't this wasn't uh no prepared questions, so apologies for that.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, it's all right, it's fine.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but actually what they've now what they've now done is extended that so that there is um leave available for anyone who's had a miscarriage.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I mean it kind of makes sense, right?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, to go, oh you know, a week before I won't be upset, but at this week I will, clearly is completely inaccurate.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a space that still needs some development.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um there isn't there isn't any particular leave for fertility, um, but there is obviously uh the bereavement leave.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's important for employers to be aware of that.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: Most employers don't necessarily know if someone's going through that.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: So again, that one thing is having a policy, but another is having a psychologically safe place that people will feel like they can talk about that and say, this is the actual reason that I'm off.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because they're in terms of it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to create that, isn't it?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's really hard.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's why, again, if you if you think about the policy that goes behind this, you've got your parental bereavement leave policy, but you've also got compassionate leave.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: So if people don't want to necessarily go into the detail, can they use another policy?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um I would say that somebody that has had miscarriage and um infertility, even if they were the most lovely people in the world, if it I was working with a team and they were all mums and people were pregnant, I would have probably felt quite uncomfortable then saying, Oh, it's because I'm having this at the other side.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And even if it was like the psychologically safe thing, it's just it's hard, isn't it?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: To it's really hard.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: And also it's it's difficult because even when you have a good relationship with someone in your team, they might not want the rest of the team to know.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because they don't want people asking them questions and they feel as though they're already struggling emotionally, and anything could be a trigger.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I've had it, I've had it, I've had a few situations like this where it is it's great that people trust trust trust you, but ultimately it's for them and it's their journey, and not everybody wants to talk about it, which is completely fair.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that can be also challenging if then the policy is really specific on you you have to disclose this or that.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it's about finding that bridge.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: And this is something that we can help employers with.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, how does this work with your other policies and your processes?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: What support's available if they don't feel like they want to do open this policy?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna this was not also not a proof question, but I'm gonna ask you anyway, that's okay.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um is there anything about menopause um on the horizon to support women?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: There is there is for bigger organizations, so that there's a what's called a menopause action plan that needs to be done.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay at the moment it's voluntary, not mandatory, but I think it's later this year that it's gonna be mandatory.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's only for employers with more than 250 staff.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: So um what we'll what we'll hopefully see is a shift in best practice, though.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: And this should also look at, you know, not just training and awareness, but the action plan being how can managers use this to help them manage requests for support, for example, around reasonable adjustments.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: So um we're seeing employers being proactive about it at the moment.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't think we should wait for a mandatory shift.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: And certainly for a smaller business, there's no reason why you can't upskill your managers around reasonable adjustments, both from a menopause, uh uh disability, like all of these different areas, like might be neurodivergence, um trying to upskill the managers to have the conversation in the first place.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: For me, is just it's that is the place to start.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: If you if employees are thinking, Oh, where do I start?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much stuff, and I just can't, I'm gonna bury my head.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: I can't I can't I can't.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um for me, I would say start with your initial audit.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, get some touchdowns.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, two or three priorities and focus on the managers.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do you trust your managers to have these conversations?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: And if not, we need to work on that because it's them that'll be the face of your organization.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do manager training then?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: I do.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so we do manager training and leadership training as well as HRT training and all staff training.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: But the main the main area around for managers is around how do we have these difficult conversations, whether that's like balancing poor performance with poor mental health or menopause with poor performance, these types of things where it can feel super tricky and we want to help, but we still have to run a business.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's how do we find that balance?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we do lots of practical scenario stuff with our lawyers, and we can wear a the hat of we're legally trained.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: So the answer we're giving you is not only legally compliant, but it's also compliant with your policies and your process.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that's our kind of that's our approach, really, is to try and get managers to feel much more confident in how to approach conversations, what they can and can't say, but also at what point do I go, I need to speak to HR, I need to speak to legal.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it's those types of conversations that I think are going to shape workplaces moving forward.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Anything I feel like we're gonna cover all the spectrum, anything on pre-menstrual leave or not yet.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think there is, is there?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't know.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there is, but I feel like there's it's float sometimes floated and then maybe some countries have it.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: In Portugal they have menstruation leave.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I don't know what it is.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: But I saw it on um, I saw it online and I was like, oh that's interesting.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think we have it in the plan from what I can see, but there are so many things being banded around at the moment, it could well make its way onto the plan.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I haven't I don't think I've seen anything for that just yet.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's difficult because I know a lot of people like endometriosis and things like that, and you think, oh, it sounds horrific, and you think it makes it very hard to work then on those particular days.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: There was um a case.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Sanji, I can't remember the lady's name, Ginger the Nest.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she she ran her case all the way to the Supreme Court um for establishing whether endometriosis was a disability.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now what that what that did was it put endometriosis on the radar of employers need to take this seriously because it's actually seen as a disability in her case.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't the first case to ever do that, but because it went to the appeal courts, it got a lot of attention.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: And what that meant was employers um were kind of highlighted too that this could be a disability, therefore you need to make adjustments.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you're balancing someone's inability to work or their poor performance with the fact they have endometriosis, you need to consider making reasonable adjustments before you terminate their employment, don't just go straight to dismissal.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and in this particular case, the lady was like she'd been like a top performer, and then her performance drop simply linked to her disability and she was just canned.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they just didn't take into consideration all of her previous good performance, which is really quite tough.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I have done a video on that particular case on my Instagram and TikTok, which is at IamJodie Hill, if you want to have a look.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: We will do.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is there anything we have not covered that's coming up that employees should know about or employees?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, let me think.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think so.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff coming.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we do have a blog on our website that goes into it into a little bit more detail.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: So what I'll do is I'll send over the link.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: That also has a link to the government um uh uh roadmap so you've got the date.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then we can I'm more than happy to take any questions if people have um questions that arise out of what we've discussed today, yeah, or anything that arises out of that blog, just drop me a message.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: Happy to have a chat.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, pop your, I know we you're on LinkedIn as well, so pop all that with your TikTok and Instagram in the show notes.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's been really valuable.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like there's a lot happening, a lot changing.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you're gonna be busy.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean sometimes I'm like, oh, I feel like a junior lawyer again because it is like you're learning a lot.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because you know, as lawyers, we're learning it, we've got some advice on it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm really fortunate that I'm on the Law Society Employment Law Committee because we're uh I'm getting to be involved at the policy level in terms of the decisions that are being made.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: So before they're made, I'm involved in the consultation.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I understand like how it got to that point on in some of the areas, which has been really, really helpful for my understanding and my planning and supporting employers because I'm like, oh, I know this is coming, like I've got I've noticed.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I guess a lot of employees are like, why is this happening?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you could actually say one, this, that, the other.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think obviously if you're an employer, the action point would be to um do one of the audits that we spoke about, because at least you're prepared.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I love how you've been quite quite proactive as well in suggesting the training.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that's sort of chat and that's something you offer.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're an individual that maybe wants to chat about your rights or um raises any grievances with an your existing employer or an ex-employer, because now we know you've got a month, so it's not less one day.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, obviously you can speak to Thrive Law, you can get a 15-minute chat.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've got again and definitely worth um, obviously there's different packages depending upon what level of support you need, but it's also definitely worth checking your home contents insurance policy if they offer legal support.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's mainly for litigation that that they'll offer that support, but absolutely, and there's a contact form on our website as well.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you can you can fill that in and then they'll send you a link and you can book a call in with one of our lawyers.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's super easy to do, and there's a WhatsApp on our um on our website as well.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: So however you wanted to contact us, you you you pick.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, and you can hear Jodi is lovely, she's so friendly.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, we've dealt with you.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: I've never spoken to Tom.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Tom helped my husband as well with something a couple of years ago, and he was fantastic.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um you'd always be at a law firm that I would recommend.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um thank you.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, no, absolutely.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, if you've got any questions on employment law, Thrive Law, it's brilliant.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's all right.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Jodie, for joining us.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.