Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / I Lost My Faith at BYU and Had to Rebuild My Entire Identity — My Brother's Story of Disassociating With the LDS Church with Ryan Liston
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (00:28) Hey everyone. Thanks for being here. So excited for this episode. I am bringing you my little brother, Ryan Liston. It's one of my favorite people and one of my best friends. So I'm really excited to have him today. he and I were both raised in Latter-day Saint households with pretty standard traditional beliefs and upbringing. rules, expectations, and I am currently an active member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Ryan's path took him a different way. And we're going to talk about his beautiful and hard and overcoming story today. And I'm really, really proud of him and the hard work that he has done. to get to this point where he feels peace and more confidence in where he is at and the decisions that he has made. So thanks so much for being here, Ry. Ryan Liston (01:27) Yeah, Brynny. Brynny, thank you. So happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be on with you. Brynne Erickson (01:35) Yeah. In fact, you mentioned that you took some time to journal about some of the questions I had mentioned, maybe we would talk about, and how is that experience for you? Ryan Liston (01:44) It was really lovely. For anybody who, well I guess it's probably not for everybody, but journaling has been very key for me as I've, well, gone through life, but in my transition it has been very key for me when I've needed to be able to really just download everything. It's really healing, it's really nice, and it was fun to do because my experience over the years has changed. Every single time I quote unquote, tell my story to friends or family or whoever, it changes. And it was fun to journal because I realized just how much it had changed since the last time I had done that. I had done the journaling. That was probably a couple of years ago and it felt pretty substantial. Actually, it felt like the biggest change that has happened so far. Yeah, it was fun. It was very fun. Brynne Erickson (02:14) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Cool. Yeah, and that was awesome for you to be like, it was actually a really good experience rather than having lots of angst and not wanting to do it or being afraid of what you would see on the paper. Ryan Liston (02:43) Yeah, I used to be that way. I have experienced that, but now I don't. It just feels true, it feels real. I'm not arguing with myself in the same ways that I have in the past. I mean, there is still definitely some of that, but it's not in the same way that it has been. So it is nice. Brynne Erickson (02:45) Right. Right. Awesome. Yeah, that's so beautiful. Raya has been really good about letting me be an integral part involved in his journey. And we've had very open and beautiful conversations and shared our perspective and been there for each other. And yeah, it's been cool to see each other evolve into who we are at this moment. Right? Ryan Liston (03:22) 100%. It's been fun. I... Yeah, I can still remember the first time we talked about this. You were living in Tucson, Arizona, and I came down to visit and was all squeamish about telling you and, and Dallin that I don't think I believed in the same God anymore and that I was having questions and, and you were full of grace. You just gave me a lot of kindness and a lot of care and that was everything I needed. Brynne Erickson (03:30) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (03:51) Anyway, that was six years ago now, probably. The first time, the first time, well, actually, yeah, it was 2020. So it's been five years. It's been five years now since that first conversation. We've had a lot since. We had a four hour conversation last week where we were just hashing things out. What did we, talked about like morality. We talked about, I don't remember what else, but we went at it. We do. Brynne Erickson (03:55) That was, wasn't that 2020 when you crashed in my apartment for a couple weeks? Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. I don't know. We just keep it running. It's awesome. Okay. And I hope to have Ryan for future episodes. So you can hear us rambling about certain topics and getting open and sharing our different perspectives. And cause we do that a lot. In fact, after I started this podcast, this last conversation we had, we're like, we should have recorded that podcast or this episode for an episode. And it would have been really good dialogue, but that's okay. Now we know better and we're more prepared. Ryan Liston (04:35) Thank Brynne Erickson (04:42) Anyway, so here we go. Let's get Ryan to know, or get everyone to know Ryan better because he's probably going to be around and his story is awesome. So, all right, so to start, Ry, when did you distance yourself from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Ryan Liston (04:57) Yeah, that's a really solid question. The beginning started when I was in college at BYU, Brigham Young University, an LDS church, university. And it started when I was sometime between the age of 21 and 22, really is when it began. I'm not exactly sure when in there, but my journey began there. And it was with a few different basic questions of like, do I really believe what I'm Brynne Erickson (05:07) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (05:24) going to church for when I'm talking about. But the foundation was actually around God, which was really interesting. I know you asked me kind of when, I don't know if you want me to say more about what it looked like, but when I guess would have been when I was 21, 22, so that would have been seven to eight years ago. Brynne Erickson (05:38) Yeah, let's. Okay, so was this post mission or were there things that maybe happened on your mission that kind of catapulted those bigger questions? Ryan Liston (05:50) Yeah, this was mostly post mission. I do recall a couple instances on my mission that I question, I just was like, do I actually believe what I'm saying? Do I believe what I'm telling people? But at the time, because of the way that my personality is, I'm really, really good at following rules and really, really good at like, at least I used to be really good at, just like when I grasped onto something, I was a diehard at it. And that's how I was about. being a missionary and so when those thoughts would pop into my head I'd be like, do I believe this? I'd be like, no, you're a missionary. And just push them out of my head. so there were a couple of those but I didn't think about them, I didn't dwell on them, I didn't let myself continue to peruse them until later. Brynne Erickson (06:32) Okay, so on talking more about who you were prior to your transition, what was your relationship like with the church? Ryan Liston (06:41) was really good. It was, I- Brynne Erickson (06:44) Hahaha Ryan Liston (06:45) I recall, and this may be, this just feels like a very childish and teenager thing to say, but I recall quite a few times in my teens having some different friends point out, and I, this is like a superfluous comment, but they would be like, Ryan, you're perfect. And I think that the idea behind that, it, of course I wasn't, of course anything like that, but teenagers like to compare themselves, and I guess we all do, but it's kind of hyper in those stages. But at the time, it was very much around like, Brynne Erickson (07:02) Hmm. Yeah. Ryan Liston (07:13) You do everything right. You show up to everything. You have all the callings. You're the president of the different quorums. You're of the different organizations. You help run firesides. you're the seminary. You're in the seminary presidency. And you go to seminary every day. And you love it. And you memorize scriptures. And you read your... I can count on one hand the number of days I missed reading the scriptures between the age of 14 and like 24. Brynne Erickson (07:39) Yeah. Ryan Liston (07:41) like just didn't happen. ⁓ I would pray all the time. I would drive in my car and talk to God. I went an entire year in high school without listening to music that I turned on because I felt like the music of my generation quote unquote was, was dirty and what was on the radio wasn't, wasn't productive for me trying to get closer to God. And so I went an entire year, first year of me driving actually, where I just didn't even listen to music and turn on the radio. Brynne Erickson (07:43) Hmm. Ryan Liston (08:06) at all through my first year of driving. So yeah, my relationship was really, really good with the LDS Church. I believed. I said I believed. I... I did it all. had friends' parents be like, Ryan gets this. Ryan really gets it. So there were some really deep things there and I was committed to it at the time. It made a lot of sense to me having grown up with that messaging and so it made a lot of sense and I was all in. My personality was to jump into things if I was gonna do them and I was all in. yeah, I realized as well, think one more important thing to me is that I also am somebody who seeks high amounts of external validation. Now that I recognize that in my adulthood, I'm doing a lot to work on that. But I, at the time, found ways to get people's validation. And having grown up in Utah, which is course the epicenter for Mormonism and the LDS faith, was surrounded by the church. I mean, most of my coaches and my teachers and my friends and their parents and my dentist and I mean, like just most people were LDS. And so it, my brain, like latching onto I'm searching for external validation, found ways to do so. And that generally ended up being essentially that Brynne Erickson (09:14) you Ryan Liston (09:28) everything pointed back to the LDS church. Like if you want to be good at school, you're also a good Mormon. If you want to be good in work and like have a productive job or have a good family, all those things come only because you do Mormonism well. And so it became the highest ideal in my head that in order to be good at anything, I needed to be the best Mormon possible. And so it really did become like it was my identity to be the best. Brynne Erickson (09:30) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mmm. Ryan Liston (09:56) Mormon and not just be a practicer like somebody who believes in a religion and practices the faith, that it was an identity level type system for me. wasn't just somebody who practiced Mormonism. I was a Mormon, which later came back to bite me in the butt a little bit as an adult. yeah, that was my relationship. Brynne Erickson (10:15) Yeah, and it's so interesting. Ryan and I are seven years apart, so I'm the oldest. And like that's not my experience at all, which is so interesting. Like I remember there was like a scripture reading 15 minutes a day by the prophet, President Hinckley. And I like kind of did it, but not really. But when it came down to like at seminary, everyone was putting their names up on the wall that you did the challenge and everything. And I like didn't want to be left out. So I just put my name on a card anyway or whatever. But, but like, I remember like sometimes I did it and sometimes I didn't, I didn't beat myself up about it. And yeah, but your experience probably would have been like, I have to do this. Right. Ryan Liston (10:47) Hahaha Oh absolutely, I was the kid who did it and didn't just read 15 minutes but read 45 minutes or whatever. Brynne Erickson (11:06) Hmm. Yeah. And I definitely listened to all the music I wanted and that never even crossed my mind that it would distance me from God or anything like that. So it's just so interesting, like same parents, right? Same household. Obviously seven years is a big, quite a big difference. It's almost a decade between us. I was the oldest experimental child. You were the youngest. so there was a lot of factors and we're totally different people. Right? Ryan Liston (11:20) Absolutely. Yep. Sure. Yeah. Yep. We are, we are very different people. Yep. Brynne Erickson (11:33) So it's just interesting how that is with all those factors. So what led up to your decision to step away from the church then? Ryan Liston (11:40) it is. Brynne Erickson (11:46) So now we can get more into the details of kind of like your distancing process. Ryan Liston (11:48) Yeah. Yeah, so again, was while I was at BYU, the original experience I had was essentially while reading the Old Testament in the Bible, there's the moment when the Israelites go into the land of Canaan and God is like, I want you to kill all the people here, because this is the land for you. And I just remember And that was a piece, sorry, go ahead. No, I was choosing to read the Old Testament. Yeah, I was just doing it myself. And I remember getting to that point. There'd been some other points throughout. I can't remember as much. This is like the one that has stuck in my brain. And there were other, I mean, there's just other things. It's like the why do good things happen to bad people and why do bad things happen to good people, right? But essentially I read through that and I just thought, you know what? Brynne Erickson (12:13) Was this in a... Was it in an assignment or were you just reading scriptures? Okay. Okay. Ryan Liston (12:37) Everybody is telling me that the God that is in front of me is a God of love. Like, that is the core, the core belief and element and personality and characteristic of this God that is supposed to be my father, right? And is supposed to be everybody's father. And yet, like that father asked some children to slaughter an entire, like actually a literal population, entire population, right? Brynne Erickson (13:03) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (13:04) And that to me didn't compute. And then I went on and of course there's lots of explanations and people have lots of reasonings for it and I've heard tons, I looked up tons. And at the time none of it made sense to me. I just was not able to place how a loving God can, I mean, can do that. Can do that. And I mean, there's other things too, right? Brynne Erickson (13:26) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (13:29) Again, there's tons of answers for it that people have come up with, but they don't resonate with me. And I get that. But like how people would tell me like, you lost your retainer as a teenager. You should pray and ask God and God will help you find your retainer. And then there's other people who are living in war-torn countries and people who get raped and people like it just, those two things didn't make sense to me. I was like, how is there a God who can care about where my lost retainer is and also lets people get raped and it just made no sense to me at all. couldn't and I actually still can't quite feel well I should say I should say that how is there a God whose main characteristic that is love who can have those things happening right like a God who personifies love how does that possible and who cares about me individually and helps me supposed to help me individually but these types of things happen to others. Brynne Erickson (14:05) you Ryan Liston (14:24) other people. Anyways, that's where it began and from there I just had tons of questions. Tons and tons of questions. I I questioned Jesus as a savior. questioned, I can probably name dozens of things at this point, had thoughts around him and I wasn't sincerely feeling terrible emotion in the beginning. I would go to classes and I would raise my hand and ask professors. I'd go to my religion classes and ask those professors. I'd send emails. I'd talk to my bishop and I was talking to friends and Brynne Erickson (14:26) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (14:50) It just... I would find some answers that satisfied me and a lot of things did, but there were just some that I could not get satisfied with. And... I... In the end, just kept getting more and more frustrated and annoyed. And I would go to church and instead of feeling any type of peace or any type of calm, people would say things and I would just immediately have an argument for whatever they said. And I couldn't stop it. I had that experience for about a year and a half. And no matter what I did, I just found myself Brynne Erickson (15:03) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (15:24) not being able to believe anymore. And actually that was one of the most challenging things for me is I could not understand how to believe what I used to believe. I couldn't understand how to believe in this God. I couldn't understand how to believe in a savior, an atonement. I couldn't understand how to believe in some other things. And I spent almost two years, probably almost weekly, sobbing to God on my knees. begging him to help me understand how to believe. And going to the temple and like I said, my, I was still reading my scriptures daily. I was at BYU, I was attending classes. I was going to religious classes and I couldn't understand how to believe anymore. And I was tired. Honestly, the point came that I just was tired. And I just thought. Brynne Erickson (16:10) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (16:12) This isn't helping. I'm actually falling into a deeper and deeper state of depression and sadness and anxiety and... Brynne Erickson (16:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ryan Liston (16:23) And no matter what I do, whatever I try to release or whenever I try to stop, doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith, I just couldn't do it. And so I, at some point I just stopped going to church because it made it so much worse. That's where I stopped going to church four years ago now. Actually, four years ago, probably six weeks. Yeah, four years and six weeks, something like that. So yeah. Brynne Erickson (16:39) Mm-hmm. was 2021. Yeah, I remember you were very angry and frustrated and sad and very anxious and depressed. And that has kind of ebbed and flowed throughout your journey. Cause then your journey, maybe let's talk about that too. So your journey, once you decided like being at church, wasn't helping anymore. You started seeking help, professional help. Ryan Liston (16:48) What was that? Brynne Erickson (17:06) And what did you conclude? Well, I guess you concluded that it was that identity piece, right? Like, and, then that started a whole nother journey of you coming to realize who you were as an individual period. Like who is Ryan Liston? Do you mind diving into that a little bit? Okay. Ryan Liston (17:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to. Yeah, that's a good topic for me. The identity piece is has been difficult because it's a slow process to understand yourself when you feel like everything is new. Essentially what happened for me was when I started moving myself away from the LDS church, that identity that said that I Brynne Erickson (17:30) Okay. Ryan Liston (17:51) In order to be good at anything, literally, school, work, friends, family, relationships, community service, to be good at anything you have to be a good Mormon, that was now gone, essentially, right? Like I just didn't know how to do it, to be a part of that, and so now it all disappeared. remember, like to the point of when I finally realized that it was an identity piece was my last year at BYU, and I... Brynne Erickson (18:12) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (18:19) I stopped attending the church about nine months after I graduated, but it was my last year at BYU at some point that the identity piece came about as I was working with professional help and whatnot. And it was actually interesting, the therapist I was seeing point blank looked at me after, we'd been together for about a year, and he just said, you know what, I almost never tell people that I don't like quote unquote a diagnosis of some sort. He's like, because I don't feel like it's usually helpful, he's like, but. And I had already been musing about this, like, man, like I just don't feel like anything anymore. I feel no purpose. I feel no connection to people, to school, to work, to having, I didn't care about the future. I didn't have any idea of the future. And so I was identifying all these things and he just, he just goes, you know, I think you're an identity crisis. And he's like, maybe I'm wrong, but let's explore that. And once we started doing it and I started learning more about what that can look like clinically and things. Brynne Erickson (19:03) Hmm. Ryan Liston (19:17) And it's not a clinical diagnosis, it's nothing like that, but I started reading more about other, what that looks like, and I just like checked every box, bam bam bam bam bam, and I was like, okay, like this is, this really is it, I fundamentally need to reinvent who I am. And not completely, right? Like, but it also meant going back and picking the things that worked from the past, and also shedding the things that didn't work and finding new things to replace them. So I remember walking around I was on BYU campus at one point and this just kind of shows the level to which I didn't feel like I had an identity. I didn't know myself anymore. I was 24 years old and I'm walking up the stairs of the business school at BYU. There's a big staircase in the H-round and I just remember thinking, why should I be honest? Like, does it matter? Does it matter to be honest? Why don't I just lie all the time? Brynne Erickson (20:06) Hmm. Ryan Liston (20:09) And I didn't have an answer. I like legitimately didn't have an answer. I had no... nothing inside of me that could say why honesty was actually important. I had just... that wasn't there anymore. And so the journey has since been slowly to rebuild what an identity is, which there's not a handbook for rebuilding identity. And so it's just a... Brynne Erickson (20:31) you Ryan Liston (20:32) very slow process and rather painful process frankly of you just I take it one day at time I guess and I I'm better at being cognizant of it, conscious of it and purposeful in it sometimes more than others and Yeah, anyways, there's the basic behind how it started. Brynne Erickson (20:49) So what does that look like when you do come up against something that you don't have an answer to? Like how do you handle that now? Ryan Liston (20:57) Yeah, so one of the differences now is I do have a base level identity that I didn't have like five years ago. And what I mean by that is I have now decided after literally re-examining the world, I literally have spent days where I just sit there in a public place and just look at people, look at what's going on and just think, what about this matters to me? What about this matters? Do I care about community? Why would I care about community? What does that look like? What matters in this instance? What do I want to matter? How should it function? How can it function? How does it function? And just, I hash these things out because I honestly just don't feel like I have it for my childhood anymore. Even though I know it's there, I can't. Brynne Erickson (21:29) Mm. Ryan Liston (21:41) tap into it in the same way. And so I go through and I just hash these things out and I've just basically reformulated each of those things. I've come up with reasons why I think the way that some of the pieces of society work are good and some aren't and the ways that I want things to be. And so I've created kind of like a base level identity that I now can work from. And that identity essentially feels like kindness is very important. Integrity is really important. Brynne Erickson (21:57) you Ryan Liston (22:09) And I have now decided that honesty is very important. And care. Care for people. I know that's similar to kindness, but I feel like it's a little bit different. And so those four traits kind of have built. I now have a fundamental identity that is those things. And it's taken me time to get there because I've had to have trial and error and hurting people and not hurting people and also realizing anyways, just a lot of things. Brynne Erickson (22:25) Hmm. Ryan Liston (22:33) and the effects of dishonesty and seeing the effects of honesty and deciding that I want this type of life in this type of world and to be this kind of person. And so now when I come up with against something that I don't understand, I now can just sit back and it's hard to do and some days I'm bad at it but some days I'm really good at it. just sit back and I think with who I am and who I know I want to be, how do I approach this? And... Brynne Erickson (22:59) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (23:00) And some days that's really easy and some days that's really hard. But it is a really lovely way to be able to approach the world. And important for me, it's full of choice. And so that is really cool and really lovely. But that's not incredibly descriptive, but that's a high level of how it happens. Brynne Erickson (23:20) Yeah, that was awesome. No, I love how you mentioned that basically you had to discover what your values are, right? You had to figure out what guides you in your decisions and in who you want to be. So that's great. I remember one time you asked me like, Brynn, how do you know what you want? And I was like, huh? Like. Ryan Liston (23:32) Yeah. You Brynne Erickson (23:45) I don't know. Let me think about that for a second. Like it was such a good question and I've thought about it a lot. Like, how do you know what you want? And Ryan Liston (23:47) ⁓ I love that you remembered that. Brynne Erickson (23:59) It's almost because all of us have different desires and preferences and I just concluded like sometimes that's even trial and error. Like, do I want this thing? I don't know. Let's, let's try it see if that's creates a result that I actually am okay with. And if it's not, then clearly I don't want that anymore. And like our preferences can change and our circumstances can change. But have you discovered what you want out of life now? Ryan Liston (24:24) My quick answer is no. My quick answer is I still actually don't know. And that is one of the most painful things for me, is still feeling like I don't actually know what I'm doing with myself. That being said, the longer answer, the more in-depth answer is there are some things that I do know. I actually went through a couple year period where It was probably about three years where I wasn't very interested in living anymore. I wasn't giving up, but I was... Again, when there isn't much of a baseline self to who you are, there isn't much reason to keep doing this thing daily. I decided through that though that it was still worth pushing on and still worth hanging on to. And after a few years of just kind of sitting in a baseline funk, like a bottom line area, with some wonderful moments in between, right? Like it's not like every day I'm waking up, but it was pretty trying for a number of years and pretty just kind of neutral emotion. That after a few years, I finally came to a point where I had made a choice and I made a choice to choose to try living. and that was the choice. I said, you know what? I'm clearly not giving up. I'm clearly not doing that side of things. So instead, I'm gonna choose to dive in and I'm gonna choose to work on figuring this out and I'm gonna choose every single day to make that the choice. so I do know right now that I want to keep trying this out. I wanna keep pushing it life and waking up every day and saying, Let's see what this one has to hold. yeah, so know I want that. know. I mean I'm very hopeful to find some things that I enjoy doing for vocation. I'm still 29 and I don't know what I want to do when I grow up. I have been working a job for the last four years that has worked for me for sure and I look forward to continuing to pursue that but I think there will be some other things in my future that I'll pursue. Brynne Erickson (26:14) you I will say I like your vocation choice right now because I get to hang out with you a lot more. So it works in my favor. Ryan Liston (26:34) Yeah, it is super flexible. I also like it. It was nice getting to sleep on your futon and wake up and be there with your boys. I love doing it. Yeah, I know I want that and I am now... I'm interested in creating community. Community I think matters to me. I'm a planner, you know that, but I plan a lot of events, a lot of things, and I think that matters. Brynne Erickson (26:42) Hahaha husband last night. Activities. Ryan Liston (27:02) and I... I don't know, guess I would just say since I'm choosing to live, I just want to experience what this world has to offer. I want to experience relationship. I deeply want to experience partnership. I think experience parenthood would be very interesting. I'm way more of an adrenaline junkie now than I was even as like a teenager or anything like that. And I think that it's now because I'm wanting to just fully experience what my body can experience. Brynne Erickson (27:24) I would say so. Ryan Liston (27:30) And so, yeah. Yeah, those are... I want to continue to deepen. Deep in my relationship with myself and the universe around me. That matters a lot to me. There is... There has been a lot of years of disconnect and I think that's simply because I was trying so hard to figure out my internal world, and I still am, that there's been a number of years of real disconnect from the external world and I am working on changing that. Yeah, I guess there's quite a few things I now know I want. Which is funny, but... But very few. They're all very broad. I guess I could say I don't have very many specifics that I know what I want, but I have lot of broads that I know. A broad pers- Brynne Erickson (28:02) Yeah. So what's nice about broad, yeah, is then you then to tackle it abroad, you have to take it back in steps and be like, okay, well, if I want to deepen relationships, what's my first step in doing that? So it's something that you can work on forever because it is so broad and there's so many areas of relationship. Like that's one huge umbrella and all the little. Ryan Liston (28:31) Yeah, that's true. Brynne Erickson (28:40) sub raindrops that come off of the umbrella that you get to catch, you know? Do you think working on your inner self was essential though to acknowledge your outer world? Or do you wish? Yeah. So you don't, you wouldn't do it another way. He like, you feel like that was the order it had to happen in. Ryan Liston (28:43) I like that. It's a nice analogy. Yeah, it's a nice analogy Oh, a thousand percent. Yeah. No. No, it wasn't possible any other way. Especially for somebody who seeks so much external validation. I think it would have continued a cycle of needing other people forever. And now I'm way more aware of my... of that. And I'm already on the path. Brynne Erickson (29:10) ⁓ okay. Ryan Liston (29:19) to building more self-love and more self-power. And that doesn't mean I'm trying to not need other people. I think there's some people who preach a life of like, should just completely only be able to take care of yourself and never need other people. I think that there's something to that while also I feel pretty strongly about community and the power of relationships and the power of getting help and how that feeds. Brynne Erickson (29:28) Yes. Ryan Liston (29:45) feeds us and feeds our emotions and feeds our minds and so and anyways yeah I think that relationships are important but I do think that the internal work has been and is very necessary. Brynne Erickson (29:57) work worth doing. Yeah, I agree. It is hard. Ryan Liston (29:59) work worth doing. hard and it's slow, generally, but it is worth doing. Brynne Erickson (30:05) I think so. I agree with you. Ryan Liston (30:06) I keep hoping I'll make it to the end somehow, right? Like I'll get there, the mythical there. And I fortunately, as somebody who grew up in a system that said like, do X, Y, and Z, and you will make it there, right? Which in that system was heaven or the celestial kingdom. It was very easy to always be able to actually do that. It was very easy to say, well, okay, well, if I do read my scriptures, go to the temple. Brynne Erickson (30:22) to the outcome. Ryan Liston (30:34) marry somebody to the temple, like whatever all these things are and there ends up actually being a rather substantial list that if I do this then I already know I'm good, I've made it. Well, as soon as you step outside of that there isn't that anymore and there isn't a there to make it to at this point and so now I'm having to create a relationship with uncertainty that I didn't have to before. because everything is very certain within a faith that explains to you a path. Well, now that I don't have that, I'm essentially charting my own path and that path is unknown every single day. uncertainty is a new friend, I would say. We are young in our relationship and I'm getting more and more comfortable spending time with uncertainty. Brynne Erickson (31:17) Thank That's awesome. I love that. That's beautiful. Okay. So what do you believe now in a spiritual sense? So like God, Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ, what have you decided? Spirit, like that guiding, inner guidance. What have you concluded or where are you at now? Ryan Liston (31:41) Yeah. My favorite thing to say, I mean, I understand that this in itself is like an oxymoron, but I say that I am skeptically agnostic and the what I mean by that, and most people would say that I'm just agnostic and that's fine, but I am essentially, I feel as strongly that there could be a God as I do that there could not be a God. Some days I lean more towards one side and some days I lean more towards the other. but I am comfortably walking a middle ground right now between those two of just, I really don't know. I just really don't know. And I don't have the ability to prove either. And so I'm comfortable not needing to prove that. I'm actually pretty comfortable where I'm at, which is amazing because it's been a lot of years since that's been the case, but I'm... Brynne Erickson (32:12) Mm-hmm. you Ryan Liston (32:30) I'm pretty comfortable essentially just saying that I don't know. And I don't need to know. The path I'm trying to follow is one that doesn't need to know. It's one that chooses, chooses choice and chooses... chooses belief in goodness as kind of like the core tenet and that totally might change but but yeah right now as far as God goes I don't really know as far as Jesus goes I don't even know if Jesus existed I've done plenty of research on it and I'm not convinced but I think that Jesus was a good person and I think that Jesus set an example that is worth following and frankly if you are somebody who believes in an atonement a savior somebody who Brynne Erickson (32:50) you Ryan Liston (33:10) who can be there with you in your times of struggle and actually understands your struggles personally and you truly believe that, that is wildly powerful. That is super cool. I just, I don't know how to believe in that and so I don't but I think it's a beautiful belief for people. Do I believe in a spirit? Do I believe in a connection to something greater? There are some days that I would like to and there are some days that I just don't. I just don't have much of an inkling towards it in any direction. I'm just like, don't really think so. I don't think there's anything out there. And there's some days that I do miss a connection with the divinity, with something out there that I can be connected to. I just have not, A, figured out how to believe in that thing, and B, figured out what that thing could be or could look like. Because... Brynne Erickson (34:00) you Ryan Liston (34:01) it's, yeah, because like I said earlier, one of my core disbeliefs is I don't know how to believe in the one that I used to believe in. And so I haven't figured out what to replace it with, if anything. So. Brynne Erickson (34:13) So when you come up against something hard, what, how do you overcome that? Now, if there's not an atonement to hold onto or a divine force to glean strength from or insight from, how do you overcome hardships and challenges now? Ryan Liston (34:30) Yeah, that's a... it's a really solid question. Fortunately, I haven't come up with any... I haven't come up against too many... Like just tragic experiences right there. I haven't had a close family member pass I haven't I haven't had serious health issues or had somebody near me and have major health issues like there have been and I I acknowledge all of those things and I acknowledge that Where I am might be different if I have had those experiences, but When I come up against hard times because I have when I come up to things that really try my emotions and try my experience. One, in the beginning, I didn't have a good way of dealing with them. Actually, the very first time I came up against some really hard emotions, I just didn't know what to do. I had physical panic attacks. I felt bodily, physical pain based on my emotions, which is a crazy experience to have. And I feel... Brynne Erickson (35:22) you Ryan Liston (35:24) feel with and for anybody who experiences that regularly or has experienced it. Yeah, in the beginning I just, I didn't and I needed to separate myself and I needed to... So what I did in most situations was I found, I kind of changed my situation. I got myself out, meaning I like generally moved or... And that's not because it was around like roommates or anything. I just needed a new situation, a new space to let new experiences unfold and just sit. Be able to sit and let time pass. And for me that was the most helpful in the beginning. And as I have had more negative experiences that have tried me and been difficult, I've essentially learned that and I've also gotten older and I've talked to more people who have had difficult experiences and seen and just kind of acknowledge now that the world works in that way, the world functions in difficult experience, right? That's what happens to people. And so the types of experiences that I can fathom experiencing, I've now been able to Brynne Erickson (36:09) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (36:22) approach them and A, look at them from a lens of having already gone into the dark and come back out to the light. Like gone into a place of really rough emotion, into a place of darkness. And now I have done it enough times that I recognize that every time I'm able to come back out to the light, like it just happens. Even though in those moments I feel stuck, I feel like I can never get out the pattern Brynne Erickson (36:44) you Ryan Liston (36:52) has now been that I do. Right? And so I'm able now to just look at my life as a cycle of I'm going to experience hard emotion. I'm going to experience things that are difficult. I'm going to experience them and it will be hard in the moment and I will come to a place to get out of them. So I would say more than anything, instead of leaning on an external source, which I do. I talk to friends, I talk to family. I fortunately have a really wonderful support system of people who are willing to help me out. I mean, I come up to you all the time and I sleep on your futon and I wake up and I'm there with my nephews and there's no more joy in the world than having a little three-year-old run down and go, Ry-Ry! And just give you a big hug, right? There's nothing that can help in the darkness more than that. But... Brynne Erickson (37:24) Thank Ryan Liston (37:36) So anyway, I guess I lean on external sources, but instead of they're friends and family instead of a divine source. And then I also lean on my own experience as well. So I lean on my own experience, meaning what I just said, having like knowing I can get out of it. And now I also just have more tools. I've gone to enough therapy and I've practiced this. I've come in and out of the, of hard times enough that I have sources to help me come out and to work on them and work on myself. And, yeah. And I guess I look at the world as well and see how many people have lived and have had family pass or have gone through hard things and they also come to a place of finding joy. So I also hold on to that idea that the sadness isn't, doesn't have to be the base emotion or anger or fear because there's lots of people who have gone through hard things and have come to a place of peace or happiness. And I just kind of hold on to that thought as a core value in hard times because I know that that means I can too. Brynne Erickson (38:38) That's such a such an important principle to hold on to. Like there's always light at the end of the tunnel and of the darkness. it's I mean obviously it's hard for us in our extremely privileged circumstances to relate with those who are in enslavement and abuse and are just Ryan Liston (38:46) You Brynne Erickson (38:58) scared and sad and in circumstances that I can't even relate to, right? And I think of those all the time and like, how does this work? How is this just? How is this fair? But one thing I have learned, like you have to have contrast in all things, but man, the level of contrast is tough to understand. Ryan Liston (39:17) You Yeah, it is. Brynne Erickson (39:20) And it's hard, but I mean, thank goodness there are people that do care and that do want to empathize and help and serve. if no one ever experienced sadness or grief or pain, there wouldn't really be as much need for empathy and compassion and service. Ryan Liston (39:36) Hmm. Brynne Erickson (39:39) So even though there are varying degrees of hardship, it's certainly necessary for us to step into those roles. At least that's what I've noticed through my own experience and questioning as well. Ryan Liston (39:53) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (39:53) that. Ryan Liston (39:54) Yeah, I mean that's totally fair. I feel like I probably have quite a few thoughts on that that maybe aren't in the scope of this recording, but I do think it is pretty wild to see the drastic differences that people's lives experience, people within their lives experience. is shocking. And it is beautiful both to see people who are reaching out, people who try to Brynne Erickson (40:02) Yo. Ryan Liston (40:16) how to create change, people who try to help, people who serve, and it is painful to see people who are experiencing hard things. Yeah. Yeah, if ever. And that's an experience that, like you said, you and I, I've never experienced. I don't know it. I don't know how to know it. And of course, I'm grateful that there are things that I haven't experienced while also trying to understand so that... Brynne Erickson (40:24) Yeah, and they can't escape it fast enough, if ever. Yeah. Ryan Liston (40:43) can help be the change. Brynne Erickson (40:44) Yeah. Well, thanks, Ray. That was kind of a tangent, but definitely hold space for those that are in need way more than you and I are, So just a couple more questions. Ryan Liston (40:48) Okay. For sure. For sure. Brynne Erickson (41:00) What has been helpful to you? know that we kind talked a little bit about that, but is there anything else that you want to expand on that's been helpful for you as you've gone through this experience? Okay. Ryan Liston (41:11) yeah, 100%. A few different things I think I want to point out a couple of resources that I find really useful. If those listening to this are interested in connecting with people, being able to have better dialogue and potentially understanding thought processes of loved ones or friends, or just want to be able to better serve those in their community. who might be asking questions or needing some support, there is a wonderful podcast out there called the Faith Matters podcast. Faith Matters is full of conversations and interesting topics of people who have gone through and... I mean, they run the gambit of the questions and the comments and the ways they believe. They believe differently. They're able to have different kinds of thoughts and... Brynne Erickson (41:55) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (42:03) And I believe that, you'll be also bringing on people onto your podcast who will be having similar conversations, which I'm very excited about. But Faith Matters has been very helpful for me. They also hold a conference every year in Utah that is really, really great. It's two-day conference and I do recommend that. There is a, one of the things, I guess, journaling. I do recommend journaling. Brynne Erickson (42:07) Mm-hmm. Me too. Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (42:28) I recommend it as a practice for people. I also recommend therapy. I highly recommend therapy. If... Yeah, I just, I do recommend therapy. I recommend it as a tool for learning how to... to understand the things that your mind is doing. Whether it's questioning, whether it is coming up against a family member who is questioning and not being able to... Brynne Erickson (42:33) Absolutely. Ryan Liston (42:51) find empathy or perspective there. Or if you are somebody who's questioning and not being able to find empathy for your family who don't, who seem to not feel empathy towards you. That is also a helpful thing. And also just understanding yourself is very important. The other thing that was really helpful for me and There's been, there's actually plenty of podcasts out there to talk about this. know Faith Matters has covered it a couple of times, is the, our stages of adult development, but specifically there's a man with the last name of Fowler who created the stages of faith. Essentially, I'll just give a super quick brief. are, there's research out there that essentially outlines the way that adults develop. We all know that kids basically develop in a very structured way. But adults, Brynne Erickson (43:34) great. Ryan Liston (43:36) have lots of ways in which they can develop, but there are some pretty defined stages that adults can go through and may go through periodically through their lives and may... The difference between adults and children is that adults might come into one stage and partially go back and it's not a back, but partially be in another stage and then move into another one and they might be in multiple at a time. anyways, there's this really cool research on it, but one man named Fowler took that same principle and applied it to stages of faith. and essentially said that people will go through these stages and it helped me so much to learn about that. Because for me, again, as an external validation seeker, it helped me recognize that I wasn't alone and I wasn't abnormal. And it also helped me recognize that where my journey takes me doesn't have to look a certain way, right? Brynne Erickson (44:14) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (44:30) It doesn't have to look anyway. Like there is no prescribed prescription to how a journey will look other than if people move through the stages of faith they generally go from a black into adult start talking about adulthood like teenager year to adulthood from a black and white thinking of full belief to the opposite side of a black and white thinking of no belief Right and it's like okay. Well if God Brynne Erickson (44:53) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (44:55) God exists and then it's okay, then God can't exist. If God doesn't exist, if God, if not God existing, then God has to not exist, right? It's just like the straight black and white, which I pretty much did, right? Like that was my original journey to then essentially people come out of it and enter into a gray area. If they move into different parts of different stages, then they come into a gray area where they now start to kind of create. Brynne Erickson (45:02) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (45:22) their own experience because they recognize that it's not black and white. It's not any one specific thing and they have a chance to see things differently. And then another book I recommend to most people, if I ever have friends that talk to me, I recommend to them Navigating Mormon Faith Transition or Mormon Faith Crisis by Thomas McConkie. And he essentially takes these same stages of faith and applies them directly to the LDS faith and does it in a very, very well thought out, well integrated way where he talks both to people who are on a journey of faith transition and to the loved ones or generic people, anybody who isn't on transition but would like to understand better people who are and what they might be experiencing and where their brain is. that book I felt like saw into my soul. Brynne Erickson (46:00) you Ryan Liston (46:12) I felt like he just called me out time and time again. And so, it just helped me learn, it helped me see a new perspective of, hey, I am developing in these certain ways and I could see myself doing it as I read through these pages. And I saw myself also moving to new stages. And just, I could literally visually see my brain and the way my brain worked changing. Brynne Erickson (46:15) Hmm Ryan Liston (46:37) moving in these directions and that was really helpful for me to understand what these different things could look like. Anyways, so those are some recommendations I give people. The other thing I say is give yourself empathy, give yourself compassion. Time helps and unfortunately you have to live through time for it to help. And so that sucks today but give it some time and... and there's a really good chance that you'll have a new outcome in the future. And so give yourself some compassion. Brynne Erickson (47:09) Yeah, don't, you don't have to set an end date of when to accomplish this goal. It's not going to happen. It just is a, it's a process. It's a lifelong process. Ryan Liston (47:13) Absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Unfortunately, some days I feel unfortunate, some days I'm excited about it, but it is a lifelong process. And... No. Brynne Erickson (47:23) Hmm. Yeah, and then think of it, it's not fun. Like, it's so heavy and hard and you just don't... It's like, I don't want to do this anymore. So... Right? Ryan Liston (47:34) Yeah, there are definitely those days. And then there are some days when it just feels exciting. It feels like there is a change. It feels like there is. You are growing and you are finding new things and you are building a, an internal strategy or identity that is, that is you. And that's really cool. And a belief system, a structure. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (47:40) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. don't, the whole foundation isn't set by the time you're 18. Like, figure. Like we're meant to continue to grow and evolve and progress. And it's just this lifelong endeavor. I mean, the whole point is to not be the person that you were yesterday. Right? Ryan Liston (48:00) What? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Brynne Erickson (48:13) So it's, yeah, it's, it's good stuff. And I totally agree with all of those awesome resources. They were very, they've been very helpful for me too. So I'll have to link those in the show notes. Ryan Liston (48:21) Hmm. Brynne Erickson (48:24) Any other advice other than the resources that you gave, any advice that you'd give to others navigating their own faith or stepping away from their traditions? Ryan Liston (48:24) Yeah. Yeah, you know, I Something that has been important to me and I, what I want to say is let your experience happen. And what I mean by that is your experience is going to look like your experience. I chose not to be angry. I chose to feel anger, but I chose not to be angry. And there are some people who choose to be angry and there are a lot of valid reasons to be angry in faith transition. And I think that what matters is that you follow the journey that you're on and you let yourself experience what you're going to experience. But you also choose kind of an end, let me say this, a base emotional end outcome. I'm not telling you a belief outcome, I'm not telling you a religious outcome, I'm not even a way you're going to think. But I would say that to instead choose that on the other side you're going to be peaceful and loving and caring. Well, at least that's coming from me. take it for what it's worth. But my recommendation and my advice is to let yourself experience what you're going to experience and choose to... to end up in a way that really works for you and the community you want to be a part of. And I get that that's going to look very different for a lot of people. And I'm not... And I'm trying to not use specific words. Specific descriptive words. Because I don't want anybody to feel like they need to have it look a certain way. But I generally... I will say I generally ascribe to, like I said, care. And then also helping people. And... Brynne Erickson (49:58) Yeah. Ryan Liston (50:17) most peace and happiness we can find in this life while doing the least amount of harm. And so that generally looks a certain way and allows asks of us to find ways to be compassionate and to find commonalities and to be able to listen to each other even when we feel like we have differences and to not let differences be the defining factor between us but to let love be the defining factor. And I know that I get that there's tons of different opinions and I get that there's tons of ways to view the world and I get that there's lots of people whose opinions are painful. And I feel that. I even feel that myself. anyways, that would be my recommendation. Brynne Erickson (50:55) Thanks, Ray. You summed up my whole mission with this podcast, like, beautifully. So thank you for that. And for your advice, your wisdom, your vulnerability. I'm sure this will resonate with at least one person. So thank you for your time. You're awesome, Ray. Ryan Liston (51:00) You Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, of course. Yeah, thank you for having me, Brynny. I appreciate the time. It's fun to get to share this story. It's fun to have watched it change over the years, and it's also fun to know that it will continue to change. I bet if you and I have this same conversation in even two or three years, I will be saying different things, because I've learned that this journey isn't static. And so, there is no end. There is no thing to achieve. But yeah, I really appreciate the time. Thanks for having me. Brynne Erickson (51:43) Okay. you're welcome.