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A Police Captain Confronts Moral Injury And Stigma · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I am Dr.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Daniel Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network, First Service Women Incorporated.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a great guest.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Adam A.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Myers is a police captain with the Hartford Township Police Department and certified peer specialist in the state of Wisconsin.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Adam began his law enforcement career in 2001.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: After five years as an active duty United States Army military policeman, Adam has been a police chief, detective, arson investigator, evidence technician, field training officer, dispatcher, 9-11, 911 operator, and is an instructor in firearms, professional communication skills, scenarios, and officer wellness.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: In 2016, Adam was involved in a critical incident that changed his life forever when he used deadly force on someone who armed themselves with a hatchet inside a busy department.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: This person died.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Adam has faced many personal and professional mental health challenges after his critical incident, and it has taken him many years to get back on track.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Adam says he would not have been successful with his mental health without the unwavering support of his family, friends, colleagues, counselors, and even complete strangers.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Adam is the founder of Stop the Threat, Stop the Stigma.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Adam says his overall goal for establishing Stop the Threat, Stop the Stigma, and speaking about his critical law and a critical incident is to promote law enforcement wellness and inspire other law enforcement professionals and those who work in the law enforcement profession to speak about their own mental health.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Adam.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being on.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Daniel.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for this opportunity to talk with you and talk about mental health and law enforcement.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a really important issue.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: We talk a lot uh about mental health in military.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the work I do primarily focused on uh service members.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: But we always you know, it's almost every time we start talking about moral injury and mental health issues, um, those in the law enforcement field, uh it's a natural like they face similar kind of things.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you were both military and civilian law enforcement, both in law enforcement, right?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh active duty military police in the army uh for five years.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see any conflicts, didn't go overseas.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was stationed uh at Fort Bliss, Texas, in El Paso, near the uh Mexico border.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: At the time I was married and had uh one daughter.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have two now, but yeah, I was uh active duty MP and uh after that I became a civilian police officer.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So so you've been doing uh policing for decades.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh this this May will be 24 years as a civilian cop and then you know five years military police.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank thank you for your service very much.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think um uh we don't we don't give enough respect for the people in law enforcement community, and there are a lot of uh right now, of course, politically and in the news, there's a lot of stuff about law enforcement and so on, and um, you know, but that's kind of a lot of noise.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: The mic uh except for except for the few times that I I had to talk to a law enforcement officer for because of a speeding ticket or something like that.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: But other than that, I've I've always found them to be, you know, really upstanding people who are who are really, really tough job to do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so I have a lot of respect.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've taught my kids to respect uh cops and and to respect the law and stuff.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So so thank you for your service to thank you to society.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree with you.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the majority of the police officers are good.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think the majority of the people uh support and appreciate law enforcement.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it now is I think it's a lot of hype in the media.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh with social media and the internet and your phone, when you kind of look at your phone or the news, that's all you see is the negative stuff.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so much good stuff going on with with policing and with first responders.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I believe the majority of the people support law enforcement, and the majority of us are good.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: We we go out there and we treat people fair and equally, and we want to go out there and and help people, help complete strangers.
• 4:38
  unknown: Right.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just because it's it's who we are, and it's what we what we do and what we want to do.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that people people join for the money.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess if you if you grow up really poor, you know, it's there's some decent benefits, some decent pay, but you're not gonna get rich, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: As a cop.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you got to do it for other reasons.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it is very dangerous every time uh right, every time a cop steps out the door, they're putting their life online, even even if they work in the office, more or less, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because you never know what could happen.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, things happen everywhere nowadays.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter if you're a one or two officer department or if you work for the LAPD or the NYPD in in a big metropolis.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could be a desk sergeant or even uh a clerk inside a police department.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: People still come to the police department for help.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: People come um with with good news, with bad news uh during a crisis.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you just never know.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: It can happen anywhere.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I could I could think my personally, I could think of a lot of different ways that mental health or or LEOs could be their mental health could be challenged, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have the we'll get into the shooting incident here in a minute, but beyond that, right?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just dealing, I could think of a lot of things dealing with people that are that are struggling all the time, that have a lot of conflict in homes or whatever, poverty, all this kind of thing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: But but what from your perspective, because I'm just guessing as a civilian, from your perspective, what are some of the the main things that uh challenge uh LEO's mental health?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it has to do with cumulative stress.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just the job alone is stressful.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said earlier, uh when you walk out the door, you never know what you're gonna be walking into, and you don't know if you're gonna be walking through that door at the end of your shift.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we do wear a vest.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm wearing a uh exterior vest carrier right here, and you see this patch here.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk about cumulative stress.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have a patch right here that says cumulative stress.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can have uh go from writing a parking ticket, which is pretty not very stressful, to a car crash, to a fatal crash, to a domestic, then you have some downtime and you're writing reports, and you kind of have even more downtime, and you're going and having a lunch or a break, and then all of a sudden you're in a vehicle pursuit going over a hundred miles an hour.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, your your body and your mind is just going up and down like a roller coaster.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, policing, they train us pretty well, at least in Wisconsin they do, but they don't always treat us or they don't always train us how to deal with that stress because everybody responds differently to stress.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's not one um one answer for all of that.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just the nature of the job and the different kind of calls and things that a police officer is involved in just alone during during their shift is is challenging.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like right now in Wisconsin, it's I think about maybe 10, 15 degrees, and you could be having a very slow day for the first seven hours of maybe your eight-hour shift or the first 10 hours of your 12-hour shift, and then you get that call and you're going 100 miles an hour.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I think just just that type of stress and and just the uh the nature of the beast is what can uh you know keep stacking up, like the cumulative stress, you know, call after call after call and the different things that we see and deal with.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think that's a a good point because we did a study, a colleague and and I, um and some others, a team of us, uh did a study where we interviewed military spouses of service members with PTSD.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the really things that we didn't really expect this to to find, and it was it was about moral injury in their experiences, uh is that you know, people tend to think of moral injury as um the result of a single trauma, like some single traumatic event that violates your deeply held moral beliefs, and then you struggle with PTSD and other things after that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: But what we found that for a lot of people it was cumulative stress for a lot of these spouses, it was, and this is far too common of a scenario.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Spouse, uh service member deploys for a year or whatever.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Some a lot of them were special operators, so they didn't deploy for years, but they deploy for three or four months, whatever, come right back, deploy again.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so you have this while they're gone, this worry.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're a spouse, you have all this worry and stress, plus, you have the kids by yourself and your school and you might be working a job, and dah, dah, dah, nobody help you around the house and all.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then this service member comes back and says, Hey, guess what?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be promoted, so now I need to go to a service school uh for my next promotion, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So then they come back for two months after deployment.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're the whole family is moving to you know, Fort Whatever to do six months of a service school.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as that's over, um, then it's now I'm a commander, so I'm going to take my first command.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So then it becomes, you know, it's just one thing after another, and there's never any like just settling in for a few years.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be here.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've got this settled job.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was just and then it's just it all piles on to the point where then uh, and some of the service members came back with PTSD, not because of a single incident, but because incident after incident after incident of a long deployment where there was no like way to release and step back and so on.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think that's really um true.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: That I I definitely understand that.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, before we get into help and support for for uh police and um you know how you can help with that.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go to the 2016 incident you mentioned that this was a life changer for you.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about that situation.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my critical incident occurred on Friday, April 8th, 2016, 5 15 p.m.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was a Friday, it was very busy.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was at our Walmart store, and I was um, you know, my shift started off like pretty much nothing going on.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I remember assisting a couple motorists on the highway, and then I went back to the police department and I started working on a retail theft report.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was dispatched to our Walmart, and it wasn't initially a very emergent call.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there were two chaperones that were at Walmart with a woman.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Her name was Melissa.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: She happened to be uh a mental health patient at a um a mental health, state-run mental health facility that was next to our community.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's my understanding, she was out on a good behavior path, and they had gone to a restaurant and then they went over to Walmart.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And when it was time to leave and go back to the facility, she refused to do that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the chaperones called 911.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was initially a 911 hang-up call, but then our our dispatch was able to make contact with them and keep them on the line and and kind of figure out what was going on.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And when they dispatched me, I just responded, you know, non-emergent.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was somebody refusing to leave the store.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: We we respond to calls like that all the time at restaurants, retail stores, people's, you know, homes, businesses.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I grabbed my laptop, I walked out the the back of the police department, I jumped in my squad car and I started driving to Walmart.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and that was about, I would say, probably about a mile and a half away from the police department.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: But as I was responding, the call became more and more emergent.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh dispatch advised me that uh Melissa was in the sporting goods section and that she was attempting to remove a knife from the packaging.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um later on we found out that that was a hatchet, it wasn't a knife, not that a knife would have been any less threatening, but that's what it was.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's when I you know activated my emergency lights and sirens and started traveling at a higher rate of speed.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Walmart, most Walmarts are set up the same.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: They have two entrances, a general merchandise entrance and a grocery entrance.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then around the corner, there's usually an auto center where you can get some tires, you can get an oil chain, stuff like that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I knew she was at the back of the store by sporting goods, so I figure, you know, if I respond through the auto center, hopefully I can keep her contained back there so she doesn't walk up to the front of the store.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: But as I was responding, she was walking up towards the front of the store and she was threatening customers.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what I did is I pulled into the parking lot, nobody would get out of the way.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I said, it was Friday, everybody's kind of looking, hey, what's that police car doing?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking, will you frickin' move?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's like there's really an emergency in there, you know, and everybody's just watching my squad car come in.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But what I did was I parked in front of the general merchandise entrance because I knew where she was in the store, and they said she was kind of walking towards the paint department and stuff like that.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of had a visual of the store and where she was probably walking towards.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I parked in front of that general merchandise entrance.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I turned my sirens off, but I left my red and blue lights going because I was hoping that if anybody was going to use that entrance, they would see my squad car there and think, yeah, maybe I shouldn't go through those doors.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would definitely have been like, nope.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Believe it or not, people still came and gone through that door.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so I exited my squad car and I drew my weapon right away because I had no idea where she was.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I knew she was walking towards the front of the store.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she could have met me right inside the doorway.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And but I did meet a man and a woman there, and I asked them, where is she?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they pointed down towards the Health and Beauty aisle and the lawn and garden aisle.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was a main intersection.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I ran down there, and when I first made contact with her, her back was facing towards me.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I gave her some verbal commands.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: When she turned and faced me, I realized that she was holding a hatchet and not a knife.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I gave her multiple verbal commands to stop, to drop the hatchet.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: She wouldn't listen.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: She continued to advance towards me, and then I decided to shoot her twice.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know when I pulled the trigger that I changed lives.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not only did I take Melissa's life because she did she did die hours later um after surgery, but the people who witnessed it, the people who heard the shots, uh, people who weren't there, my family, um, my friends, Melissa's six-year-old daughter at the time, her family and friends, you know, it it was a tr it was a tra it was a tragic day.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And but I remember the first thing I did was I got on the radio and I I advised dispatch that shots were fired and to send an ambulance.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I looked at some of the customers that were there and I said, please check yourself, please check each other.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to make sure that my rounds only hit her and nobody else.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was a a Walmart employee there, and I said, Please get on the intercom and ask if there's a doctor or a nurse in the building so they can come and help until the ambulance showed up.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, there just happened to be a nurse in the light bulb aisle, and um, she said I was yelling so loud to drop the hatchet that she dropped the the box of light bulbs she had in her hand, but and she realized that I wasn't yelling at her and she was the only one in the aisle.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how how how loud my verbal commands were.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it was it it was surreal.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I lived in that community, I shopped at that Walmart so many times, investigated retail thefts there.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I just never thought that day that this this would ever happen.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I know I did the right thing, there's no question.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've never second guessed myself, but it doesn't make it easier.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, when you get into policing, it's it's possible that you you may have to use deadly force on somebody.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: You probably won't have to, but it is a possibility.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then now this is my reality.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it it just seemed really, really surreal, you know, once everything everything started uh unfolding and um things I had to do after my shooting.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it you answered one of my questions, you said you wouldn't do anything different.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you've you followed policy, you followed procedure.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um is do you think um was this a what do they call um death by do you think she was trying to get shot, or was she like, you know, I've heard of like yeah, kind of do you think it was that kind of thing?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or I think that's a strong possibility, and the only reason why I say that is because you know, when an officer is involved in a shooting, they they begin an investigation, they look into the officer, the training the officer had, um, why they used certain levels of force at the time, and they also look into that person, and and they did look into Melissa and they found in her diary um that she wrote that she wanted to get in a shootout with the police, and that she would probably get shot and die, and that her her family would be upset because she was she was dead.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um so did she truly want to do that?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a hundred percent sure, but her diary does indicate that, so it's very well a possibility.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I you know, I still remember standing there, I'm in full uniform and my gun's in the ready position, and I'm I'm giving her verbal orders to stop, to drop the hatchet, and she just kept walking towards me, and I'm thinking, stop, why why aren't you listening to me?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it just it I I just can't believe it.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I and she just kept coming at me and kept coming at me, and then finally I I was just like, This is it, I have no other choice.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I decided to shoot.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy for it could be easy for uh civilians to second guess that incident.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so did did any of that happen?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Did anybody question?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm sure there's like after the shooting, probably some kind of investigation, but any questioning of of what you did and how you did it, did any of that uh not that I'm aware of.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I do know that some people make made social media comments um about I should have done this and I should have done that, and why didn't you use a taser or why didn't you use pepper spray or your baton?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we I even received hate mail and it said that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and as a matter of fact, I have a piece of the hate mail right here.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't mind it, can I read it real quick?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So this was sent to me um in an envelope with no return address, with no signature.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have no idea where it came from.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: From who it was from, but it said, hey to the murderer cop.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: What the hell is your big, strong, armed, trained, macho man bastard serving the community policeman, doing and shooting and murdering a 25-year-old young lady in a Walmart?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Throw some socks at her or a chair or a few pillows or a bicycle or some spray or a taser.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: You son of a bitch murderous cop.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I hope a drunk driver shoots you.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, there were there are a lot of people that kind of, you know, hate mail I received.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of people that put their kind of two cents in on social media.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: You should have done this.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: You you didn't need to do that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I know I did the right thing.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, I had been a uh police officer for 15 years.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was a firearms instructor.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um at the time, I had never used deadly force on anybody.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I had never even pepper sprayed or used my baton on anybody.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I always prided myself with being able to talk people down and not using force.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this time, this was a totally different, different incident.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: There were so many people around in the store, um, from from young children to the elderly.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the the cameras showed all that, and um, I made the decision.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't an easy decision, but I know I did the right, uh I know I did the right thing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm a I'm of the firm believer that God decides who lives and who dies.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I have he gives me the ability to have will make decisions about what I do, but the results of those decisions are left up to him.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you followed policy, procedure, you did the right thing, that's all you can do.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but did this did this hate mail, uh the the criticism and all that, did that play into your mental health?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was that detrimental to your mental health after the incident?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it took a toll.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I received the hate mail, my chief at the time wouldn't let me read it because he knew I was an emotional guy.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he knew if I would read the the mail we were receiving at the police department, I would just fester over it and it would really get to me.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't until years after that I actually read the whole thing, which which is good.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um the online comments, I I read that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes I received uh messages through my Facebook account, usually around the anniversary of my shooting.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: People would make up fake social media accounts and send me messages, and then I would look into that and and realize that the account was recently created, and then they just sent me something to I guess to remind me um what I did, not that I would ever forget.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, right but it but it did one way or another, it did start taking a toll on my mental health, yeah.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sure.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: So after the incident, immediately after the incident, um what what were the immediate just walk us through?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure like you you do the shooting, there's probably a lot of adrenaline and things, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: When did when did the mental health issues, if you will, make there might be a different way to say it, when did they settle on you?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: How how did like immediately after the shooting, how did your mental health progress or change?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: What went through your mind, that kind of thing?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it progressively got worse.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was I was on administrative leave for 30 days, which is which is common while an investigation is is being conducted.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people don't know this, but when you're a police officer and you shoot and kill somebody, you're a suspect until you're cleared of that shooting.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so before my shooting, I collected wine.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And after my shooting, I started drinking more of that wine.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then once I drank through all the bottles of wine I had, I went to liquor because it got me to uh it got me where I wanted to go quicker.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have to drink as much.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but my my mental health started struggling.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I do have another patch, and you know, some of the poor coping was alcohol, casual sex, and drugs.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, you know, when I talk about abusing alcohol, it wasn't just a 12-pack of beer.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I would do is I'd have a simulated wine glass here.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: What I would I'd pour a glass of wine and then I would put in my, you know, own make my own cocktails.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd put some sleeping medicine or some allergy medicine in there.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there was even one time that I reached into the medicine cabinet and took my daughter's prescription medicine, poured it in the wine glass.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: It had coating in it because she had a pretty bad cough and cold and and uh made me feel all warm and fuzzy, and then I would sleep the day away.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another thing that I would do is with alcohol, this is a 750 milliliter of vodka.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: I would easily drink this in 30 minutes or less or less.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't um you know make a drink out of it.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would just drink it straight or on the rocks.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And wherever I would go, I would drink alcohol.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: A social event like even grocery shopping or um going to visit friends or anything like that.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: What I would do is I would stop by the local uh gas station and I'd pick up two or three of these cinnamon fireball whiskies.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: These were pretty much my best friend, my alcoholic choice.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I would drink two or three of those and right in the car, right in the parking lot of the gas station.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I would toss the empty containers in the backseat, or I would throw them out the window while I was driving to my destination.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I would always tell myself, I would rationalize that within 30 minutes the alcohol would kick in, and then by then I would be where I where I needed to be.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another poor coping was casual sex.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would meet women online strictly for that, and um I I just I didn't like myself.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember one time after I had sex, I was with a woman, and I'm thinking, you have to stop this, Adam, because this isn't working for you.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was causing me more stress, more depression, more anxiety than anything, and I started not liking myself.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I say drugs, I I tried marijuana for the first time.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are like, yeah, it's just pot, that's no big deal, but it is a big deal to me because all my life I wanted to be a cop.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I did everything in my power to do the right thing, to not get in trouble with the police because I wanted to be a cop.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be, you know, the good guy and not do anything wrong.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: But after my shooting, I didn't care.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I smoked marijuana, I tried marijuana gummies, and um I just didn't care.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, the other part of drugs is is um over-the-counter drugs or prescription drugs I would I would abuse.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just really looking for that next next thing to numb the pain, the next thing that I could escape and uh just forget about that.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And all this, you know, risky, dangerous behavior, poor coping, it did nothing but cause me more stress, anxiety, depression.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't make anything anything better.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: It maybe momentarily, but not in the long run.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: It only made things worse.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you for sharing all that um and being so honest about that.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: What was it that what was going on in your mind that was leading you to to do this?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: What were you uh trying to avoid?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: What were you running away from, or what you what were you reacting to or numbing, if you will?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think killing somebody, even though I know I did the right thing, um, taking somebody's life.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and at the time my daughters were young, uh, through the investigation, I discovered that Melissa had a six-year-old daughter too.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I would fester over.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't even imagine if somebody would uh you know, kill somebody close to me.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and how would I feel if I get a phone call like that, knowing that the person I love is is uh dead now, and I know I did the right thing, but I was fighting.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Why did I have to do that?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it it it it wasn't supposed to be that way, you know.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I it and I didn't think she was gonna die.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: She was a larger woman, and after I had shot her and and uh the ambulance arrived, paramedics started speaking where with her and she was answering questions, and I never I just never thought she was gonna die.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the next morning when when I found that out, I was I was just devastated.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking this changes everything now.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now not only did I shoot somebody, I I took somebody's life.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I was just trying to escape that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um even though I knew I knew I did the right thing, there was a part of me that felt bad about it, and I just I didn't understand it all.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a do you have a religious background or a religious?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely I I believe in God.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was born and raised Lutheran, um, baptized as a young child.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I welcomed God in into my heart when I was uh probably before 10 years old.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was an acolyte.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was confirmed.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, Daniel speaking to you right now, I believe that's that's part of my journey.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: All everything that I went through, I didn't see it at the time, but I see it now.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: As I got healthier, I was supposed to go through that because this is what God wants me to do.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh this is the journey He He put me on, even though there were many times that I I prayed that He wouldn't let me wake up and you know He's kind of like, Yeah, I got something else for you, Adam.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can wake up, I got something else for you.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh pretty much one-sided conversations between me and him.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, absolutely I believe in God, and uh yeah, I I'm here because of uh what he wants me to do.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did you did your um so religiously as you're struggling, alcohol, sex, drug um how where did your I I've been through uh I was a few years ago I went through a situation that was way harder than I ever thought it would be, and it was sort of like I later I look on it and say, my religion was not big enough to handle this situation.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I grew up in church and everything like that, but when it happened, it just wasn't uh strong enough eventually, you know, as actually um a chaplain that I worked with that that his teaching and stuff helped me a lot.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was a serious Bible student, I was a serious studier and a practitioner and stuff, but just it just wasn't mature enough.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: My my religion wasn't mature enough to help me in the sense what I you know my religious worldview, the extent to where it had taken me so far, and I'd been through a lot.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: I paratrooper for years.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this was um after many years of serving in the army, doing a seeing a lot and doing a lot, this particular incident I wasn't prepared for.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so it took several years to work through it.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there was a time when religion wasn't any value to me at all.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: But later, as I look on it, I said, okay, it's just that my religion wasn't mature enough.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, my my uh expansive enough to deal with this, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a similar thing or or how I I I think I know what you mean because the day after my shooting, my first thought is I gotta go to church.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta go talk to a pastor.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have a church that I that I frequented.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I went to a local church and I remember walking in and and uh a lady approached me and I said, I hi, can I please speak with a pastor?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and she said, Well, I think they're all busy right now.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: What can I help you with?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, I'm I'm a police officer.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I killed somebody in the line of duty yesterday, and she's like, Well, I think we can find somebody for you.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then we sat down, the pastor and I, and I I don't remember what we talked about, but I I knew I I just I needed to be there.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, going to church every Sunday, going to youth group, going to Sunday school.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then after that meeting, for years after, I I just my religion wasn't there.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't and I think maybe that's what it was.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't mature enough, it wasn't strong enough to to reach out and pray and ask for help because I didn't do that.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I just realized that recently that I'm like, wow, the day after my shooting, I went to a church, spoke with a pastor because I knew that's what I needed to do.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then for years after my shooting, I just forgot about God, forgot about church, forget it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh would only pray when I wanted something.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Please don't let me wake up.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but as I got healthier, I look back and I realized that that uh I'm like, wow, I the day after I went to a church, talked to a pastor, but then after that I pretty much said, forget it.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't know why.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a good question, and and uh certainly a conversation for a different time, but I think um what what I what I try to take from it, and you mentioned it, you alluded to it as this is what God wanted you to do.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that too is part of the journey.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Being being on, you know the the you know, wilderness period or the period where you weren't didn't have a relationship with God, you weren't praying and doing those things, um is also part of the journey you needed to take, you know, so that now you now it's a strong part of of your life and what you do and how you whatever.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it is for me certainly, but these periods of where you know the old saying like I moved and God didn't, and that kind of thing, but the but these periods where we we just really feel disconnected from God or sever our connection from God, later we're able to look back and that and go, I for me, I can go, I know why I did, I was missing this element, like I was expecting God to be something that He wasn't or to do something for me that He that but I can look back now and say at the time I just thought, Well, F God, because He's not doing anything for me.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: But as I look back and I go, Yeah, because I was on this crazy path that I didn't need to be on, right?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he was helping me by not making it comfortable for me to keep doing that or whatever, right?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: So so now you can look back, and not to put words in your mouth, but you can look back and say, I tried alcohol, I tried casual sex, I tried drugs, none of that helped me.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can now I have God and I have my my nonprofit or my other work, whatever.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and people can people can respond to that and go, Oh, I was thinking about trying the alcohol thing or whatever.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that and that's why that's why I'm so detailed about my poor coping, is because I I don't sugarcoat it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this is what I did.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm not the only one, and I I want to put it out there so others who are struggling or know somebody who is can be like, hey, I'm not alone.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, it didn't work for him, and he did do it, and Adam did get through it, and maybe I should try something else.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is the stigma?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a strong stigma with uh with law enforcement and first responders.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's always going to be there.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's getting better because of you know people talking about it, like you and I are talking about it right now, and and there's more programs out there and and policies.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: But um You know, when I was in the Army, the they they told me, suck it up and drive on.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whenever there's an issue, suck it up and drive on.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I became a police officer, I just uh I lumped in a cop and I just kept uh kept driving on.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that stigma, I think, gets in the way of first responders asking for help.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're always there for everybody else, but we don't put ourselves first, and it's important for us to do that.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to continue to do that and have a long career and a successful career, and just have a long, healthy, successful life, you need to you need to fight past that stigma and and ask for help if you need it, or support other people.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as a first responder and a lot of the first responders I speak with, they're they're going to try to take care of things themselves.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh like I did for years.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I told myself, if I just keep going, eventually everything will fall into place, everything will work out, and everything will be fine.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because everything works out in the end, right?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Everything will be fine.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was wrong.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: I needed help.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And until I put myself first, I I wasn't getting that kind of help.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: But first responders, mainly cops who I speak with, they're not going to reach out if they think they're going to lose their job, they're going to lose their home, they're going to lose their marriage.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Everything that they trained for and worked hard for is going to be gone like that if they ask for help.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them won't reach out.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same way in the military.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you um I this is just one example, but I was talking to a pilot.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: He he had some pretty severe PTSD.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um but he said, you know, he couldn't he uh couldn't report it because then they put him on medicine that he couldn't fly and that kind of thing, you know.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: So he he um now eventually he did try to get help, but then then he couldn't get enough resources.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: But for a long time, it's like I can't admit anything.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of military that worry about losing their clearance, all this kind of stuff.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so that's common military too, for sure.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when you when you talk about medicine, I got another patch here.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Says I take medication.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: I and here's here's the bottle right here 20 milligrams of Lexapro.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: I wake up every morning, I pop a pill, and I I start the day, and it's and it's okay.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, a lot of people when they see this patch, a lot of cops when they talk to me, they're like, Why are you telling people that?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that question is part of that stigma.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a stigma.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: I take medicine.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you shouldn't, you know, it it's it's not evil, it's okay.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: If it helps you, why not?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh well, I think too, as civilians, it could be easy for civilians to think, oh, what kind of medication do we want?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Cops running around with guns and on medicational.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, there's an awareness education for the civilian people that needs to happen for sure.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because we uh we I mean we expect cops to be uh 10 foot tall, bulletproof, never do the wrong thing, never say the wrong thing.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: We want to we want to abuse them, but then they're not supposed to re I mean it's insane the kind of expectations we have for law enforcement.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um don't pull me over for speeding just because I drive a Corvette, and I should be able to drive my Corvette because I have a Corvette.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of insane, you know.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I also Say a therapist.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's another part of the a stigma, right?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, who's this guy?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: He must be a nut.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: If he's if he's talking to a therapist, he goes shrink and he's a cop.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do we really want cops seeing therapists and taking medicine?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know how it's okay.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're not nuts.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're professionals.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're good at what we do.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: We love our jobs.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the things that we see and the things we're expected to do does take a toll on us sometimes.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think it's okay.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you see a therapist or you take medicine, that's okay.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with it.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you don't have to go around and tell everybody your business like I do.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's okay.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you've got in there stop the threat.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: What is what does that relate to?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, stop the threat can mean a lot of different things.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, stop the threat of your mental health taking control of your life.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, stop the threat is of uh there's another meaning.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's what I did on Friday, April 8th, 2016.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Melissa was a threat.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: She was not only a threat to me, but other people in the store.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it can have a di uh a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I think I feel strongly that stop the threat is stop that stigma.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Stop um the threat of your mental health taking over your life and not having a healthy life and not being happy and not enjoying life because you just accept the fact that I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'm overwhelmed all the time.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's just how it's supposed to be.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not supposed to be that way, and it's okay to reach out for help.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you don't have to suffer in silence.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many people out there that have gone through what you're going through, and there's so many people that are willing to help, and not not just because they're getting paid for it, because they genuinely care about you and they want to help.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I appreciate that.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So what is um so so we have uh first responders, um tons of cumulative stress, the stress of all the different things that have that can happen in a given day, um the stress of a critical incident like you're talking about where someone died, um the stress of um receiving death threats, being you know, being seen as an enemy when all you want to do is is to have law and order to protect people, so on.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: We have all these things that um, you know, in my mind uh law enforcement officers and first responders are just as much heroes as military, uh, maybe even more so because they they do it every single day.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: But military comeback from deployment, it's the thing, it's the thing right now to treat military like they're heroes.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not not a lot of military don't really want to be treated that way.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: But with law enforcement, we tend to take them for granted, we tend to be very hypercritical, we don't see them as the heroes they are.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what what can be done?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what is your group doing, or or what are what are other groups doing?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: What can be done to to help first responders with their mental health, um, to maybe educate, educate civilians, educate people uh about about mental health and and and people in your profession?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the most important things is to have a rapport with your community, to openly talk about it, uh, to have debriefings, uh, to normalize mental health, to let people know that it's okay.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, one of the programs that I do at the police department now is something that we call mental health Mondays.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: The first Monday of every month, I share somebody's mental health journey um with the public.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it gets it gets published on our police department's Facebook page.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: It also gets published in the local newspaper and online.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you have that network of people.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: You you have that community that we're not just the cops, we're not just showing up when bad stuff happens.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of it is, but we need to normalize mental health.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: We need to work together to let people know that it's okay.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, different programs are being offered, you know, like stop the threat, stop the stigma.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the I'm the founder of that.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I initially started it just to um promote law enforcement wellness and in hopes that by sharing my experience and it'll inspire others to, other police officers or anyone really, doesn't matter if you're unemployed or you you have a job to talk about your mental health.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're all affected by it one way or another.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And throughout the years, I've learned that um it doesn't matter where you are in the world.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've spoken with people overseas as far as South and West Africa and Australia, and we're all talking about the same stuff.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what's that's what's cool about it.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: We can sit down and just kind of talk about depression and anxiety and mental health.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: And although we may have different experiences, we we can relate, we kind of understand it, and it doesn't matter where in the world you live.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Technology is great.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, with cell phones, you can you can search resources that are out there and available, and you can also do that in the privacy of your own home.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you don't know what you're struggling with and you trust somebody, go to them and say, you know, I feel off.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't get what I'm feeling.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I just don't understand it.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: I need I need some kind of help.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there's so many resources out there.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, like we said earlier, that stigma gets in the way.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the more we talk about it and the more we're open about it, um, we'll just start normalizing mental health and then and then hopefully it'll just be become uh a thing that, hey, you know, if I don't feel well, I'm gonna go to the doctor and maybe get some uh get a shot because I have the flu.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm struggling with mental health, I'll just go see a counselor, it's okay.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I think a lot of people struggle with that now because they're not sure and because of that stigma.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are are law enforcement officers in in your area, um your your city, state, et cetera, adequately insured?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do they get enough good enough insurance or are there good enough resources that they can go to in terms of getting that mental health support?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or they do they kind of have to go outside of that?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I think so.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of police departments have their own uh certified peer specialists.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a certified peer specialist in the state of Wisconsin.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they also have employee assistance programs.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh some police departments in the area even have their own uh social workers or counselors that work right in the police department with them.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, with that stigma, there is still many police officers when they seek help, they pay out of pocket or they pay cash because they don't want that document, that their name on there that might, I guess they perceive it as, you know, biting them in the butt later because it's like, hey, here's proof you went and saw a psychologist, what's wrong with you?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um they still try to hide the fact.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's um in I there's a soldier who used to work for me.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I won't say where, but she struggled with some some mental health challenges due to some things that happened to her and what was happening with her her current husband, kind of some domestic issues, and so a friend of her uh said um you know go see the mental health counselors, and and that turned out to to so she did, and they kept her over the weekend, um, which really, really upset her because um she was away from her kids and all that.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then um a couple years later, she went up to renew her security clearance.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: She had left the military, medically retired because of mostly because of some physical things.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I they wouldn't renew her clearance because she had had sought mental health, and so that was really, really angered me that um, you know, here you're um you know, she she she this person was right in in her mind, she shouldn't have sought mental health, she shouldn't have sought mental health.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with her uh very closely um through her challenges.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I I helped her a lot, helped her get, and we kind of kept it off the books in the sense.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody, I mean, people knew in the office because she wasn't there come Monday, and and so in the army it gets reported, of course, you know, to the command.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they knew, but after that point, it just we kept it very privately, her and I, what she was going through, and I became her counselor in a sense.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that peer support, if you will.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's the kind of thing that people can point to and see, see, that's why you can't go get help, because so-and-so lost her clearance and lost her job because of it, because she had a and you know, I don't know if she was able to retain her job because I wrote a letter for her basically that said, Yes, she sought mental health, good on her.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she was able, even while she's getting counseling and stuff, she was able to fully do her job, she did a great job, she is no security risk whatsoever, and it's insane basically to even consider dropping her parents because she got help.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: But but the point of that is that system-wise or institutional-wise, uh, with the military, there's a major problem because it's like the narrative is get help, but the reality is if you do and it's on the books, you're gonna be screwed.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I got one more patch.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to me was on December 28th, 2021, I went to an active duty, an active shooter training.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: And while I was attending this training, I was seated comfortably like I am now.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're watching PowerPoints about different active shooters in the United States and overseas.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I started having a panic attack.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: I had a knot in my stomach.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: I started feeling really hot.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: About a minute passed, I reached up to my forehead and it was drenched in water.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was sweating, I was having a panic attack.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And my my first thought was I have to fight this and I have to hide it.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: And there was probably about 20 or 30 other cops there.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: They all knew me, they all knew I was involved in a shooting.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if I would have just said, hey, I I can't do the training, it probably would have been okay.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: They they they understood, but I my first thought was I gotta fight it and I gotta hide it.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: So what I did is I I fought it, I hit it, I went through the training and completed it, went on a couple days off.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now I was a detective at the time.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: A year after my shooting, I was promoted to the first detective of the police department.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: And but New Year's Eve 2021, I was working a patrol shift.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was in uniform in a marked squad car, starting my shift at 11 a.m., the same time I started my shift the day of my shooting.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: And when I sat in my squad car, I thought, you know what?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Forget it, I'm done.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I quit.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I ain't doing this no more.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think I I wanted to quit being a cop.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think I wanted to quit coping and dealing with my mental health poorly the way I had been for years.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I reached out to a sergeant.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I need you to come with me to the chief.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm quitting, I'm not doing this anymore.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he's he came over and he's like, no, no, you're not gonna quit.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go talk to the chief.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I went and talked to the chief, and he's like, No, take some time off and let me know when you're ready to come back.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it was probably about two weeks, and I was ready to come back.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah, no, I'm not gonna quit.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um called him up, said I'm ready to come back, and he said, That's great, but the only way you can come back is you have to have a fitness for duty test, a psychological evaluation.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was all for it because I had started speaking about my mental health three years after my shooting, and I'm like, okay, let's go take this evaluation.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fine, you know, because I had already previously been back on the job and I'm fine.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I scheduled it.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: And while I was driving to the clinic that day, I thought to myself, I'm gonna lie.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna beat the test, I'm gonna lie.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need to I'm fine, I don't need to do this.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then when I got in the waiting room at the clinic, I'm thinking, Adam, the only way you're gonna get better is you have to be honest.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: You just you can't lie.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a seven-hour different test for about seven hours, and I was honest.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: And after that, I uh I actually have a copy of it right here.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my assessment, I was uh unfit for duty, uh diagnosed with major depressive disorder, PTSD with acute stress, um with dissociative features, and I I couldn't go back to work.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember reading this for the first time um and I started crying because inside this fitness for duty evaluation were answers to to my behavior and everything that I had gone through throughout the years, and I also saw this as what I needed to get better.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I I started uh going to therapy two, three times a week.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: I did uh psychotherapy, biofeedback, EMDR, all kinds of different stuff.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was feeling better.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing better.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I even requested a 90-day leave of absence.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't miss any of my appointments, I was doing well.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: I actually was put on a a crisis plan too because there were some suicidal ideations in that in that evaluation, um, because I did put my gun to my head multiple times um when I was depressed and and intoxicated.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I was doing better, and then the 90-day leva absence expired.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was called into my chief's office and I was told we're not extending your leave of absence.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can either resign or you're gonna be terminated.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I I couldn't believe it because I had been there for 14 years.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: I had never been disciplined, suspended.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I was just at a loss.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: I felt abandoned and I I thought it over and I I chose not to quit and I was terminated.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember walking out of the police department for the last time thinking, what am I gonna do?
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is my lifelong dream of being a cop.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now because I did my job and I finally decided to get the right kind of help, now I'm terminated.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there were there was a lot of times I looked back and I thought, you know what, if I could go back, I never would have, I would have just kept going.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would have kept trying, I would have kept trying to push through.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it really did end up being a blessing in disguise because I like we talked about earlier, um, I finally put my f myself first and got the right kind of help and the health and got healthier.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, I believe I was ultimately terminated for for my mental health.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um it really hurts.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was completely ghosted by the people I worked with.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um no texts, no calls, no emails.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's been almost four years since then.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the people that I loved working with that I went to calls, life and death calls, dangerous calls with once I went on that Levi Absence, it was kind of like no communication anymore, like I didn't exist.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um it hurts because they knew me and they knew my family, they helped me move, they knew my daughters, and then all of a sudden I'm struggling and need help and nobody was there.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that that's a similar thing, like at the institutional level of all these organizations where we're talking military, law enforcement, EMT, fire, whatever it is, yeah, there there's got to be a recognition of um that you can have PT, you can do all that, you can get the help, you can get and still be on the force.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we we just because um I think um I think of how many how many people we lose in the military every year who well it if everybody that was that was really hurting said talked about it, this percentage we have of PTSD would dramatically increase.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like we would we would suddenly become aware that like half the force is walking around with shit.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sure, absolutely, and we would realize all our support systems are inadequate, and we would realize that um what we're doing to people isn't right, and we need and I think that's maybe part of it.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there to me, there's a sense of um institutional blindfolding, institutional like closing of the eyes, hoping it'll go all go away, and so we can terminate the ones that um you know sort of remind us that we're all walking around with this stuff, and just some are more or less functional than others, right?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you probably after all that help, after realizing what you are, and I mean you could think that these institutions could create programs where you have to check in, okay.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna retain you, but you have to check in regularly.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have to you have to show that you're you know taking your medicine, doing your thing, whatever, whatever.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: If we want to do that to make sure there's accountability, we don't have people off the rails or whatever, fine.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it's just easier just to to say, well, let's not take any chances, let's just terminate them.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like half your cops are walking around with that shit, they just haven't told anybody, or half your military are walking around with that, and they're trying they're making decisions uh when they have this you know ghost in in their own machine, like you know, guiding it.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: When you and you touched on it like not talking about it when I when I was on my leave of absence, I had one of the sergeants, second in command of the police department, come out to my house and gave me a written cease and desist order to immediately stop speaking about my personal mental health testimonies when it comes to my shooting.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it says, uh, you know, it makes the police department look bad.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: If I continue to do it, I could be disciplined or terminated.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I had been public speaking for three years and it was all okay.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And now all of a sudden I'm on this leave of absence, struggling with my mental health, getting better though, going to counseling and doing all this different therapy, and then they give me an order to basically shut up, don't talk about it anymore.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking it it scared the hell out of me because I'm trying to work on getting back to work, and then they're coming out saying you need to stop talking about your mental health.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, I I couldn't believe it.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was such that really hurt.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so where are you at now?
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: with with yourself, your mental health, what what you're what you're doing and so on.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well I'm doing great.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that day when I walked out to the police department, I never thought I'd be a cop again.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: I always thought that nobody's gonna hire me.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna think this guy's a nut, you know, once they hear my whole mental health journey and and didn't even know if I wanted to be a cop anymore.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I moved away.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: I moved about three and a half hours away from uh that police department, still in Wisconsin, moved in with my sister.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um she saw that I was still struggling because I stopped seeing a therapist and taking medicine.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: She found me a therapist kind of behind my back and it's somebody I see now.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: I see a therapist still and I take medicine now.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: About a year after getting back into therapy, I was doing really well and I thought to myself I still want to be a cop.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of training and experience that that most cops don't have and I I want to help others and share my experience.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I started applying at police departments and there was a two-week period that three police departments um from three different counties offered me a job and then I accepted the one where I work now and my chief Sean McGee is great.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have a Lake Patrol and a therapy dog and we're out on the boat one day and my chief's like you know what Adam I I know that you speak publicly about your mental health.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I support you a hundred percent if you want to keep doing that keep doing it.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can even wear your uniform if you want to um probably about six months after I got hired I was promoted to captain and I just speak publicly I I I try do my best to normalize mental health and um I'm doing really well I I don't cope poorly like I used to because I finally put myself first which was not easy but it was important.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the biggest thing too is if the person doesn't want to get help, you're not gonna be able to help them.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's the biggest thing you can try you can love them you can you can try your best but if they're not ready and they're not willing it's not going to happen but I finally was I finally said enough was enough and started working on myself and and I'm doing better a lot better than I ever been which is which is great because now I look back at what I went through and I understand it more now that I'm healthy and I do the best I can now to to help others.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: Anybody who wants to hear my journey I share it with them and uh just try to let them know that they're not alone and they don't have to suffer in silence.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I appreciate that.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: So Adam we're gonna wrap it up here um got a uh great story I I really appreciate what you're doing.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh do you have a website or a or an address that if people especially cops they want to find out more they want to talk to you and they want to reach out to you how do they do that?
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: You can visit stoptheat stopthigma.org once you visit there you can uh send me an email at Adam at stopthethreat stopthigma.org or you can send me a text message my phone number is on that website my actual phone number not a business phone number so shoot me a text give me a call I'll do the best I can to return um your your messages as soon as I possibly can and and if you're looking for resources I'll do my best to help you with that or if you just want to talk if you just want to vent if you want to share your experience with me and uh just somebody you know borrow my ear I'm I'm here for you so reach out if you need if you need somebody okay well and we'll have that information on the in the show notes for this video and and the audio so um but I appreciate that.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: Adam it was great meeting you uh I hope we can do this again sometime um and uh and again I I thank you for your service all that you did as a law enforcement and is still doing as law enforcement officer uh to protect the public but now to work with other first responders that's really huge and I have tons of respect uh for you and for sharing your your uh story just uh being so honest with people thanks for being on the show thank you I appreciate it