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Will “Heated Rivalry” Change the NHL? · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: So, Julian McKenzie, the first question I have for you, how much has covering the sport of hockey changed since the show Heated Rivalry came out?  [MUSIC] ANNOUNCER: The most talked about prospects in the world, Canada's Shane Hollander and Russia's Ilya Rosanov.  JULIAN MCKENZIE: It feels like there's these two worlds where you have all the fans who love the show and appreciate all the fandom that comes with it. You have people who are wondering when the Sherpa that was worn on episode two is coming out. You have fans who are going to the Ottawa Senators team store and buying jerseys with the main characters' names on the back. And then you have like people who were fully in the sport who know about the show, but that's not their world. That's not something that they talk about on a day-to-day. Like, I'll go to some players, and they definitely have heard about the show, but sometimes it kind of feels like an eye roll. It's like, oh, yeah, right, you're going to make jokes or talk about this show. Like, really? Like, I was so surprised at how the show itself took off. All of a sudden, I went from writing one story about the show to, like, having editors wondering, like "OK, like what's the next thing you're gonna write about with this show?" I was like, really, like this is a bit insane.  DG: Yeah, it's been such a moment. So we are going to get caught up a little bit on hockey in the sports world. And then we are gonna go deep with an athlete and talk a lot about this steamy show that a lot of people have been talking about. So Julian McKenzie, we should say you covered the NHL for The Athletic, and the season is just getting underway again, coming out of this kind of weird pause to let a lot of the NHL players go into the Olympics, but it's time to start cranking up again in the NHL and start heading towards the playoffs, which is one of my favorite times of the year. Hockey playoffs are wild, but I guess I just wonder, like, is there one storyline in the NHL season this year that you're really following and digging into?  JM: So in the city that I'm in, the Ottawa Senators, they're trying to make the playoffs after making the playoffs for the first time in eight years last year. Entering this kind of return to play, there's six points out. The one thing is there's at least five other teams in their division that have been super good and have playoff spots and have been keeping them from getting back into playoff position. Tampa's been good in their division. Detroit and Montreal have also been really good. Boston retooled and they look like they could be a playoff team and then you have the Buffalo Sabers who have I think they're tied for the longest active playoff drought in North American sports. DG: Yeah. JM: And they went on this surge during Christmas time. So those are five teams in the same division as the Ottawa Senators who have been playing really well since near the end of last calendar year, who are above the Sens right now, as they've gone through this year where they've done a lot of things well, offensively and defensively, but the goaltending just hasn't been there for this team. They got their goaltender, Linus Ullmark, back, who was away for personal reasons. So we'll see how it goes for the rest of the year. But as someone who still keeps an eye on one team, that's a storyline I'm primarily focusing on, but also the fact that the division, as it is that they're in, has been super, super stacked.  DG: The storyline, I really wanted to ask you about it. I mean, you can blame me for being a Pittsburgh Penguins fan, so I always go to places like Sidney Crosby, but I mean Alex Ovechkin and his Washington Capitals, they're like, I think just at a playoff contention, but still fighting to be there. He and then Sidney Crosby, Pittsburgh Penguins star, two of the greatest players, I mean, I think to ever play in the NHL, still going, getting up there in age. This has to end soon, like, there's gonna be an NHL without Ovechkin and Crosby, but I can't really imagine it.  JM: I don't want to think about that reality yet, man. I'm still holding on to those two as long as we have them. Is this gonna be the end of Ovechkin in the NHL after this season? We have to wait and see. Maybe he goes back to Russia, and he plays. As for Sidney Crosby, we're, I mean, he's still playing at a high level.  DG: Really high.  JM: But the talk around Sid is just, you know, how long can you keep this up? And if, at least for Pittsburgh now, they're in a playoff spot, they're playing a lot better than so many people expected. The beginning of the year, we thought this was a team that was going to be first in line for the Gavin McKenna sweepstakes for the first overall pick.  DG: And that Sid might end up playing somewhere else, I mean, which was unfathomable.  JM: Right, that was another big discussion point that I know people in Pittsburgh were not happy about at all to hear about it. Because Sidney Crosby is a lifter, and he should be a lifter in that city. Not to mention he's very superstitious, and he doesn't like change that much. So the idea of him being in a different uniform, whether it's Montreal or Colorado, that would be still weird for all of us, no less him. But for him to still play at a high level and for Pittsburgh to amass a collection of players where they've played above expectations with a first-year head coach in Dan Muse, mind you. DG: Yeah. JM: That is definitely a really interesting story. We'll see how they keep that up for the rest of the year. But I think particularly with Ovechkin and Crosby, let's just enjoy what time we have of them both together. But I do believe one of the last games of the year is a Pittsburgh-Washington game. I'm very curious to know how that gets celebrated and how that gets acknowledged because we're talking about a rivalry that basically for 20 years was a hallmark of this league.  DG: Yeah, I lived through the time of the great Crosby-Ovechkin rivalry. Well, this is actually a perfect segue for us to talk about Heated Rivalry, the show, because the storyline is at least partially based on Crosby and Ovechkin's real-life rivalry. I mean, a Russian star, a Canadian star, though no one is suggesting at all that it's all real, we should say. But the show has been, it's been an absolute phenomenon. And as we said, not all of you have probably seen it, and for those of you who don't know, it's a Canadian show. It's about two famous NHL players, well, professional players. They're heated rivals on the ice, but outside the rink, they have this secret romance that they feel they have to keep from the entire world because they don't think they would be accepted as gay men in pro hockey. And, you know, disclaimer, if you're gonna dive into it, the show is pretty steamy. It's got its fair share of sex scenes, but also these really deep romantic moments and powerful questions, I think, about love acceptance, and so it's based on a book that's called Game Changers. The book has totally blown up, too. Six episodes of Heated Rivalry came out on HBO Max in December of last year. Since then, they've amassed Julian, 600 million minutes of streaming time. That's 95 times the demand of your average streaming series.  JM: I didn't know that. That's amazing.  DG: Yeah, isn't that crazy? JM: Yeah. DG: I think it's like, it's such a crossover because it's gone from rom-com to mainstream. During a snowstorm a few weeks ago, the mayor of New York City gave them a shout-out.  ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NYC MAYOR: Take advantage of our public library's offer of free access to Heated Rivalry for anyone with a library card.  DG: By the way, the lead actors in the show, they carried the torch at the opening ceremony for this year's Winter Olympics in Milan, this is, as you said, a crazy, crazy moment. I mean, how did this thing first come across your desk?  JM: So as the show was coming out, I guess, in November, it for us, I believe in Canada, it came out in November or December, whatever. I had friends every week message me, again, who do not care about hockey, who were like, "Hey, so have you watched Heated Rivalry?" And I'm like, no, like this isn't a show that I would normally watch. DG: I cover games on the ice. I'm doing important things, yeah.  JM: Yeah, like this is like a this is a I don't know if I'm the target audience for that, but it just kept like going. Like friends, like again friends who do not watch hockey the same way that I do. They just kept messaging me, and they'd be like are you gonna talk about it on your podcast? Are you gonna talk about it like on Twitter? Whatever. Are you watching it? What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? I have friends who I went to journalism school with, and again, part of that same crowd, they don't watch hockey as much as I do. And it just got to a point where so many people were asking me about it. I ended up just like going to them, just being like, "Hey, like what is the deal with this show? Like, why are so many people getting into the show? Like, what the big deal about it?" And then next thing you know, at work, we're looking at it, and then I kind of put my hand up being like, hey, like I've had all these people asking me about the show. Maybe it's worth it if I tap it and try to write about it. It's kind of like a fish out of water or someone who just kind of plopped into a world that they don't really know. And then I wrote this story on how the subject matter of the show kind of brings up this whole other discussion that needs to be had about how the NHL's relationship with the LGBTQ community it's not as straightforward as one would have it seem. Even if the NHL can step up and say, "Well, we've worked with all these different initiatives, and it's something that we care about, and all these teams have had pride nights." I mean, we are not that far off from players openly opting out of wearing Pride Night jerseys in the name of their own personal beliefs or rainbow tape for hockey sticks, getting banned before that ban was reverted. Or just generally speaking, locker room culture. While, I do think there are people who are taking steps to improve that. There are people who might not feel comfortable stepping in and being fully themselves, whatever that may be.  DG: Yeah, not a single openly gay NHL player, we should say. I mean, not one.  JM: And only one openly gay North American player who's playing in the American hockey league right now in Luke Prokop, who I spoke to for the first story I wrote. And one of the biggest things that stuck with me from that conversation is the fact that he has to kind of think about when he's kind of just putting on for certain causes because he doesn't want other teams to think of him as a distraction. This is not a guy who is like a superstar player who scores three goals a night and plays 30 minutes a night, and is this guy who should be playing in the NHL. We're talking about a guy who has bounced around from different team to different team. He's a fringe hockey player who's trying to make something of his career. And it's one thing to have to think about that in the context of just your skill. But if you're also thinking about that in terms of who you are as a person, and you don't want people to just think of you as the only openly gay hockey player in North America, like that was wild, to kind of maybe wild isn't the best word to take in. But I was really surprised at that. But no, that's kind of where we're at in terms of the culture of the sport when it comes to people from that community.  DG: Well, where are we at? Because I think about, you know, a lot of people have been talking about what's motivating the NHL right now, like on the spectrum of they're sort of digesting this moment and doing some serious self-reflection about the league's relationship with the LGBTQ community, versus they're just doing whatever they want to do to capitalize on this moment and get more fans with the popularity of this show? Like, where do you see the position on that sort of spectrum?  JM: The NHL could say all it wants that they are working with all these different initiatives, and they want to be as inclusive as they can. You mentioned Gary Bettman having binge-watched the entire show in one night. He said that to the media a couple of weeks ago. And I think of other players who have stepped up and said, "Hey, like we would be cool with having a gay teammate or, you know, we should have the Rainbow Pride tape back on sticks and not have the ban in place." I think there are people in the league who will step up and say like, hey, like this, we need to show that we're inclusive and we need to show that this is okay. But I do think if you talk to other people who are fans of the sport, and maybe certain players, I mean, we haven't found anyone who would want to talk about it. But like, I do think there is something culturally that has to change where people, we could just keep it at fans, just on that level. They need to feel safe going to these games, or they need to feel that they see themselves going to these games. This is an opportunity for fans who might not have enjoyed the game previously, who wanna be involved, who wanna get into it, and wanna celebrate these players. But I do think there's a wall of gatekeepers, particularly with fans who might not necessarily want to see that or might not feel as welcoming. I do think ultimately a culture change needs to be set where individuality as a whole needs to be accepted in the sport, whereas the norm now is you conform to this generalized, quiet, maybe even humble version of yourself all in the name of winning and putting a logo on the front and playing for that and not the name on the back, which there are good elements of, but I do think that comes at the expense of individuality and there needs to be a better balance with that.  [MUSIC] DG: Julian McKenzie covers the NHL for The Athletic, and thanks for being on Sports in America, and can't wait to have you back.  JM: Thank you so much for having me, and let me know.  DG: We’ll be right back with more Sports in America. Welcome back to Sports in America. I’m David Greene. [THEME MUSIC] DG: All right, so as Julian and I were just talking about there, alongside all the fun that Heated Rivalry has brought us, it really has raised a bigger question about the NHL. Is the league welcoming to LGBTQ athletes? After all, as we said, there are not and have never been any openly gay men in the league.  HB: Instinct-wise, there are many players in the closet that do not feel safe to come out, do not feel like they would be able to have a career within hockey.  DG: So that is the voice of Harrison Browne, who we're gonna speak to now. He was actually the first person to come out as trans in professional hockey. He also happened to have a role in the show Heated Rivalry. Harrison is gonna talk to us about what it's like to come as trans while competing as a pro athlete, what kind of scrutiny he faced, and also did he feel supported? And of course, we'll get to all the details about his role on Heated Rivalry and whether he thinks the show could be making a difference in the future of the sport. Harrison, thank you. I loved the show so much. I binged, and it was really something. It's very special.  HB: Yeah. It's a very special show. I'm super proud to be part of it. I would have been a fan if I wasn't part of it, so to just be in the show is just a really nice cherry on top.  DG: In classic Canadian fashion, Harrison Browne played hockey from a young age — and he found a home in the sport. He went on to play in the NCAA for the University of Maine. And then he went pro with the National Women’s Hockey League, now called the Professional Women’s Hockey League.  He played in Buffalo and New Jersey. He won the Isobel Cup — the women’s equivalent of the Stanley Cup — twice. And in 2016, he became the first professional athlete ever to come out as trans.  Harrison stuck around in pro hockey for one more season, and then he retired in 2018 so that he could physically transition. He also wanted to pursue acting and filmmaking. And that path led him to a role in the smash hit, Heated Rivalry. I wanna get to your life a little later, but if we could start with Heated Rivalry, if that's okay? HB: Yeah! DG: I mean, is there even a way to capture what the show is in your words for people who haven't gotten a chance to watch yet?  HB: Two major hockey league players, arch rivals, fall in love and have to keep their love a secret in navigating their careers, their life, and expectations that the world has on them.  DG: Tell me about this role in Heated Rivalry. You were a teammate of Ilya, who's the Russian player. Say more about the role you played so people know.  HB: Yeah, it was really fun. I got to play basically an NHL'er. I'm just a cisgender character in this world, and just a teammate of Ilya, and I'm basically bullied to go into a club when all I want to do is order room service. So yeah, it's really fun!  DG: You wrote something on Instagram when the show started getting a lot of attention that really hit me. You wrote, "Representation matters, y'all. I had imposter syndrome getting this role and not feeling masculine enough or big enough, and that caused a lot of shame within myself because I was literally a pro hockey player," many exclamation points. "But the second I stepped on that set, I knew I belonged, and my visibility in this story is important. Queer hockey stories are important. I stand proud as a trans man," and then all caps, "with an epic mustache." Say more about what led you to write that.  HB: Yeah, well, first of all, the epic mustache was a clap back to somebody that called me a woman with a mustache when they announced that I was playing this role. So I was like, I'm not a woman with a mustache. I am a man.  DG: With a mustache and an epic mustache.  HB: Yeah, yeah. So that was a nice clap back. But yeah, I've auditioned for cisgender characters and transgender characters. And when I get a cisgender hockey player, obviously being Canadian, there's been a few hockey projects that have come about. And I've always been like, oh, I don't fit into this mold. And it's just so weird to think that. I'm just like, I'm five foot five. Actually, I'm five foot four, but I say I'm five foot five on my roster. DG: We all do that.  HB: We all do it. But yeah, I just think in my mind of like the stereotypical things and like six foot tall, like really muscular, really big beard. If I don't fit into that, then I don't fit into this story, and the optics wise of that. So this role and getting this role and playing a cisgender character, hands down. Jacob being like, we brought you on because you're a good actor, not just because of your hockey prowess, but to just be part of that story and to blend in, in the way that I did, really just dispelled a lot of the imposter syndrome that I have. When I have to go out for like cisgender leads or romantic leads and counting myself out just because of the notion that I'm shorter, those are caps that I am putting on myself. So yeah, this really helped me just be like, I can stand in my power of who I am. I'm a professional hockey player; I deserve to be on this set. I have a lot of life experience, and they're lucky to have me. So I went in with that mentality.  DG: Did you think the show would blow up like it has?  HB: No, I don't think anybody would. I don't think anybody did. I knew that having a following and being part of a book, that a niche crowd would really appreciate it. I thought it would be more of a cult following, but to see it just get this global response has just been so overwhelming. And to see Hudson and Connor just being now bona fide A-list superstars, it's pretty surreal to see how fast this has really just taken off.  DG: Long before Harrison became an actor and a filmmaker, he was just a kid who found comfort in this sport. [MUSIC] DG: I really wanna hear more about your life. So you grew up in Ontario. Tell me about life there as a child growing up, your family, your community.  HB: Yeah, I mean, Ontario, Oakville specifically. Growing up, I was surrounded by a lot of affluent sport families, like my best friend growing up, her dad was in the NHL. Her brother's currently in the NHL. She had a rink in her backyard, and I could just go on whenever I wanted to, which was really, really cool to have But it was also pretty insular. I grew up going to church. Religion was in my family, and I was growing up in a time when gay rights, trans people were really non-existent, and I felt pretty isolated in that world, but I really just sunk my life into hockey because I just felt so uncomfortable everywhere else. I knew that I was a boy deep down, but I didn't know there was that type of terminology or anything like that. But I knew I really identified with being an athlete, with being a hockey player, not being a girl, not being a boy. So I just really dove all my attention into hockey and just fell really in love with it because it was a space that I could explore who I wanted to be without the pressures of society and also a place that I could put on armor I could pull on equipment that could cover my body in this in this way and just express myself In a loving locker room environment. I just really looked to hockey as something that just helped me grow up into who I wanted to be. It was my escape until it turned into my cage.  DG: Sports may have been empowering for Harrison in many ways, but that doesn't mean it's always easy to compete on a women's team when you know deep down that you are a man. [MUSIC] DG: For one thing, he had to hear his dead name announced over the PA system before every game. That's the female name he was given at birth, not the name he chose that actually matches up with his identity. But you spend these years playing women's hockey knowing that you're a man? What was that whole experience like?  HB: It was, it was tough. It was tough, but I knew that I had to make that sacrifice in order to excel at my sport. I wasn't allowed to physically transition through hormone therapy while I was playing this sport.  DG: Those were the league rules, right? If you start using testosterone, you're done.  HB: Yeah, and I never really thought about testosterone. I never knew about it. But I started to kind of understand what being trans was in college and the different steps that you could take. And I was like, oh, I definitely know that I wanna physically transition, but I know that it's against the anti-doping protocol in the NCAA. So I was, like, I only have four years in my NCAA career. Why would I even jeopardize that to physically transition when I have my whole life to physically transition, but I only had this small window to play hockey? So I thought that that sacrifice was enough, but then when the NWHL, the National Women's Hockey League, came into fruition and I started playing there, I didn't have a finite window anymore. I was like, oh, this is an open-ended career that I have. And then there was more media attention there, and it was really celebrated as the National Women's Hockey League. And I just started to feel really disconnected from my sport and started to feel very depressed. And knew that I needed to mesh my two lives.  DG: To live for himself, Harrison knew something had to change. He had to tell the world who he really was. What was the moment you point to as coming out as a trans athlete? And what do you remember about that moment?  HB: There are two moments that I would say. The first moment was coming out to my college teammate at the University of Maine. I remember having like a team meeting and being like, "Hey, I'm still the same Brownie, but can you just use he, him pronouns for me and not make fun of my body hair anymore?" (Laughs) And they were like, people didn't know trans people. I was the first trans person that a lot of people came in contact with, but they knew that I was their teammate and that I needed a certain thing to feel comfortable. And they really did an amazing job, every team after that. And then coming out publicly through the NWHL, I came out through an ESPN article, like a week before our first game, in my second season playing there. And that was the big moment where both lives aligned. And that was me showing Harrison to the entire world.  DG: When Harrison came out in 2016, he was the first professional athlete to come out as trans, ever. He wanted to continue competing in the National Women's Hockey League. That meant he could go by a different name, use different pronouns, but he couldn't start physically transitioning by taking hormones like testosterone. That was against the league's rules. And there was a period where you were still, you were playing as Harrison, but not taking, using any hormone replacement therapy, which meant that you could still play in this league, even though you were a trans man on the rink.  HB: Yeah, I never I never was able to physically to take I was never able to take testosterone while I was playing hockey. I had to walk away from hockey to do it. So yeah, I never played hockey professionally in this body.  DG: But you felt like at least coming out publicly took away a lot of the internal struggles that you were having about having to hide who you were, even though you weren't using the hormone therapy.  HB: Yeah, yeah, it really helped me feel comfortable within that space. I think people are really overlooking the importance of pronouns and the importance of, of a chosen name. That really, really helped me a lot. Like, if you can think of how many times a day you're gendered as he, every time you're called David, it's just an affirming thing that a lot of people really take for granted. So for me to be able to just see he, him in the hockey world. I had to step outside of the hockey world, where this world didn't have a cheat sheet on what to call me. I was being misgendered and dead-named a lot outside of hockey, but at least I had that bubble where I could be myself. And having that bubble, it definitely saved my life. And it allowed me to play for three seasons when I thought that I would retire right after college.  DG: Do you remember the first time you heard Harrison like over the PA announcement or introducing you on the ring?  [MUSIC] HB: We had our first home game in Buffalo, and they announced every single player in the first game to come to the blue line. And when they said Harrison Browne, 24 forward, I had never heard a cheer like that for myself. And that's when I was like, oh, people are accepting this. People are seeing this. And I also had the opportunity to score a goal that game. I scored my first goal, and I heard over the loudspeaker, "Harrison Browne, his first goal of the season." DG: Nice. HB: Yeah, I remember. Thank you. I remember being very goosebumpy, and I'm so glad that I scored a goal that first game. It was just a Cinderella story. I couldn't have asked for anything better.  DG: You know, I hate doing this because I'm probably going to give away too much to people who have not watched Heated Rivalry, but how can I put this so it's not a spoiler? That there is a moment where a player uses a large platform to come out. How powerful was that?  HB: Yeah, I mean, that exact moment in Heated Rivalry, I was a blubbering mess and also seeing, like, I was just like, oh my God, but also seeing the reaction of Shane and Ilya watching it, seeing their faces. My hockey career wasn't on that same plane where people were watching it live, but I know a lot of people read about my story after that. And I got a lot of messages on my social media being like, "Just seeing you be in your sport, seeing you be visible helped me come out to my parents." Like, hearing that was just incredible.  DG: You know, I think about the kids who have the support of their parents. I also think about parents who, you know, again, I don't want to give away too much, but Shane's mother in this show, Shane was the Canadian player in Heated Rivalry, apologizing for not creating a space where he felt comfortable talking about who he is. Like, how do you make space for those parents? And what message do you send to parents who feel like they're doing the right thing, but even entertaining the idea that their young athlete could be trans or could be gay, and just wanting to protect their kids from something that they view as difficult? Like, how do you even begin those conversations to draw them in if there's a lot of fear?  HB: Yeah, there's a lot of fear out there, and I can empathize with parents that want to make sure that their kids have an easy life. And maybe being trans, maybe being gay isn't the easy life that they saw for their kid. It's not. It's not an easy life. But being hard on your kid, and also not creating a space and sweeping things under the rug, not letting them talk about it, or just simply ignoring it when you do see something. It does nothing to change that kid's sexuality, it does nothing change that kid's gender identity, that is how they are. And closing that door for them alienates them from you. You might think that you are protecting them, but you're actually being your kid's first bully.  DG: How old were you when you were having these tough conversations with your parents?  HB: Probably 14, 15\. DG: What's an example or a memory you have of something they were doing that was coming from a good place, but that you were experiencing as them being, you know, your earliest bullies?  [MUSIC] HB: I think bully is, bully is a, it's a harsh word. It's a harsh word. But I think, I think the biggest thing is when your kid reaches out for help, and you don't check in after that, I think that that is, that's the biggest thing for me, is was just feeling a bit alone with that.  DG: You would come to them with questions about who you are, and they would, you know, not show sustained interest in what you were going through? HB: Yeah, it's just, it was just a hard topic to bring up. And I felt like I was the one that had to bring it up a lot. And it's tough to do that when you're in your teens. You'd like to have somebody check in on you. You'd like to have somebody have some answers or do some research. I think that that's the biggest thing that parents can do right now is doing their research.  DG: What's your relationship like with your parents today?  HB: It's good, it's good. It took years, it took years to be able to be called son, to be, to be called Harrison, to have my name written on my Christmas presents or birthday cards. It takes time, and I think we, we can't be afraid of making mistakes, and we can be afraid of walking on eggshells and saying the wrong thing. Family's family, and if there's a way to reconcile things or there's lessons to be learned. Like you can fail at one point, but if you come back and you bounce back, then why not keep that door open? So yeah, it took a lot of years and a lot of conviction on my end too, to know what I stand for, to know I would put up with and to advocate for myself. And I have a lot to thank for the people in my circle that helped me understand what I deserved, like my sister, my partners at the time, my hockey teammates, just being able to be respected in that way, my grandma, everything like that. So yeah, it just sometimes takes time.  DG: We’ll have more with Harrison Browne, coming up next on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. Here’s more from our conversation with Harrison Browne.   Your sister, Rachel, she's a journalist, right?  HB: Yes, yes, she is. And she's also, we also co-wrote our book together. So yeah, we've had a lot of really fruitful conversations and projects as siblings, which has been really special.  DG: The book that Harrison and his sister wrote together is called "Let Us Play, Winning the Battle for Gender Diverse Athletes." It came out in May of last year, and it shares Harrison's experience as a trans athlete and also advocates for inclusion in sports at all levels. What impact do you hope that book has?  HB: I just hope it challenges people to question their own biases. I think we did an amazing job of really going through the misinformation and yeah, the misinformation that we've been seeing through the media and just really going into the history of trans people in athletics, like from in the Olympics and the NCAA, really going into policies. Because there's been policies for decades that have allowed trans people to participate without much backlash, without much scrutiny. And suddenly we're just negating all of that information, all of the research that we've had. So I think we did a really good job of bringing things to light in a digestible way because this topic is tough. A lot of people don't really know hormones and sports, and all of those things. They're really going on how it emotionally makes them feel. But for me, learning this and speaking with Olympians, speaking with policymakers, people that are opposed to trans participation in sports, and hearing their mindset, and hearing from trans athletes of all different sports, it's been such a wonderful learning experience for me. And I felt a lot more confident going into conversations and felt less emotional too, because I know the facts. On a broader term, people just look at athletes as just the product and not really taking into account mental health. But I think right now, if we're talking about society, we can't overlook the conversation and the moral panic right now of trans athletes and really scapegoating the community and really just looking at these athletes as just figures instead of people living real rich lives, even as specific as children, leading just the life that they wanna live in school. So I think we're really missing the mark on humanity overall when it comes to sports.  DG: You said moral panic for trans athletes. Say more about that.  HB: Yeah, I think it's no surprise that trans athletes is a really big topic right now in the world, but also in political spheres. We're seeing politicians really trying to cement their stance on trans participation in sports, if they're against it, if they are for it, and using it as part of their political campaign. I think like moral panics is when you're using a community as a villain and setting up somebody as a savior. And we're really seeing that right now with transathletics.  DG: You know, I think about on our show a little while back, we interviewed Lia Thomas. She's the trans woman's swimmer for Penn, who had her titles taken away with all the debate about trans athletes in this day and age. And one of the things that stood out to me as we were putting together that piece was that we focus a lot on trans athletes' positive, negative, a lot of the criticism that you all face, a lot of the pain that you've been through. And, you know, you look at like the NCAA, for example, and they're very, very, very few trans athletes, but it's like we're putting a lot of the spotlight on, I guess, for good, for bad. But, and then I think about a show like this that has taken sort of this, you know, a storyline that might be sort of representative of just a small part of sports, and it's gotten this unbelievable attention. Like people are just, you know, we're all talking about it. I'm talking to you. It's one of the biggest-streamed shows out there recently. Like, can you make sense of all of that for me? HB: Yeah, I think people are really obsessing over LGBTQ plus representation, whether that's lesbian, gay. I think transgender people right now are in the spotlight the most that it's ever been. I think Lia Thomas, the biggest example of people flooding to women's college swimming when nobody really gave it much attention before. And looking into the statistics of NCAA athletics, like, less than 10 are transgender out of 500,000 athletes, and suddenly trans athletes are being propelled into the spotlight when there's just so few of us. But I think a show like Heated Rivalry is also keying in on a part of the community that is so underrepresented within that space, within men's hockey. There are no out actively gay players in the NHL. And I think that that's the only league, male professional sports league that doesn't have an openly out player, I believe. So, really keying in on a community like that, in the same way that trans athletes are so few, and the same that male athletes, gay male athletes on the hockey side are so few. So I think people are just really curious to learn more about this and desperately wanting to see more representation. I can just think of how many young gay boys, young gay men, were watching this show and are hockey players and maybe closeted and feeling seen for the first time. I think that that is such a powerful thing to experience, seeing yourself reflected in the media. And I'm just so grateful that we now have somebody to point to.  DG: Harrison isn't just guessing that LGBTQ representation like this might matter to people who are in the closet. It's a real thing. Here's an example. Less than two months after Heated Rivalry premiered, club hockey player Jesse Kordum came out publicly as gay and credited the show for inspiring him to do it. But the NHL is still the only professional men's sport where no current or former player has ever come out publicly as gay. I know there's no way to know a clear answer to this question, but as you watch a show like this and think about maybe young people out there who are hopefully getting a positive message about hockey that there's maybe gonna be more acceptance and less pressure to hide who you are, it makes me wonder, I mean, how many NHL players might be out there on the ice who are hiding who they are because of the pressures that come up in this show? Is there any way to know, based on your experience in professional hockey or even just what your instinct is?  HB: Instinct-wise, there are many players in the closet that do not feel safe to come out, do not feel like they would be able to have a career within hockey. And I know that Hudson said in an interview that he was getting messages from closeted pro hockey players about their experience. So we're hearing that. And just statistically, if you look at the amount of players, like if you look at the statistics of gay people within society, there has to be people out there. But I think a show like this, like it's just, it's crazy to see the NHL really scrambling to try to ride this wave of hockey right now. And we're seeing like Gary Bettman come out with a statement that he binged the whole thing and loved it. And then the next day, we're seeing the Florida Panthers go and celebrate the Stanley Cup with Donald Trump. And that to me, it just...Hockey right now, men's hockey specifically, really doesn't know its identity and is really wishy-washy on its stance, and I think Heated Rivalry is really putting a spotlight on that. I think we all kind of looked at the NHL when the Pride night started to get banned, and the Pride tape started to get banned, and being like, what's going on here? And I think Heated Rivalry is also being like what is going on in here? How can you celebrate at the White House and also try to embrace your LGBTQ plus fans with what's happening in the States and what's happening in the world? So yeah, I think the NHL really needs to pick a stance.  DG: Yeah, it really does. I mean, you mentioned Gary Bettman, the commissioner, and you know, talking about the show, I think both the Montreal Canadians and Boston Bruins, like both of their teams have, have like, you know, referred to the show as they've been out there communicating with their fan bases. It does feel like the NHL I don't know, there's something opportunistic. It feels like, oh, we can capture a lot of new audience because of this, but I don't quite get a feel for if they know where to go from here and whether they're doing the right things to hold on to whatever new audiences they generate.  HB: Yeah, it just always feels, unfortunately, one step forward, two steps back when it comes to the PR. I think the PR has just been a nightmare for the NHL in a lot of different ways. But I think we all can really discern when something is performative allyship, and we're really holding people accountable to be like, no, you really need to do some tangible things because like the trans community the LGBTQ plus community is under attack And especially the sport world, trans people in sport, we really need organizations to stand up for us in real, tangible ways. And I think the NHL has a lot of power here, and I'm really curious to see what they do next.  DG: What is your message to fans who do still see it as something that's niche? And also, I mean, just don't care. Like, literally come to watch a Boston Bruins, Montreal Canadiens real hockey game in the NHL. They never even want to think about trans athletes. They've heard that they're only 10, as you said, in the NCAA. They don't care about your identity, sexuality. They just want to watch hockey and root for their teams, and this stuff just seems like, so like, seems like unnecessary noise and conversation. What, what is your message to them?  [MUSIC] HB: It doesn't just affect trans people. Opening up the door for exclusion of one community in one area opens up a lot more exclusion for other communities in other areas. The biggest thing that I can point to is people are really saying that cisgender women need to be protected by transgender women in sports. So suddenly we're seeing all of these sweeping bans, suddenly we are seeing all these policies, and a lot of things have to deal with gender affirmation. We're seeing genital exams. We are seeing, like watchdog policies, that it's like if you suspect somebody is trans, you can report it. We are opening up cisgender women to surveillance and control over their bodies and dictating who can say who is a woman and who is not. We're seeing a lot of cisgender woman that have been impacted by this. We saw it at the Olympics with Imane Khelif, a cisgender woman who was suspected to be trans and was subjected to a lot of harassment. We stopped, we talked about a story in BC where a young girl out of Kelowna was like nine years old and was berated because she had a short pixie haircut by a grandparent who was yelling, "That's a man on the field!" And the girl was bawling her eyes out. It's affecting children and opening up cisgender women to a lot of surveillance, and just thinking of what other ways when you enforce gender stereotypes on people, what other aspects does that happen? We're also seeing one other aspect, is the bathroom bills, and we're seeing a lot of cisgender women because they have shorter hair, because they're taller, having to prove their gender, and being harassed in public bathrooms. It's not just affecting sports; it's affecting society overall, too.  DG: So Heated Rivalry has a season two that's already been greenlit. Is your character back? Are we going to see you in there? Do we know yet?  HB: Nothing is set in stone yet, but it would be an honor if Connors came back. I hope so. We'll see.  DG: Let me just finish with this: someone who's never heard of the show, why should they watch?  HB: Because it's sexy. (Laughs) [MUSIC] DG: (Laughs) That it is, that it is. HB: It's very sexy. No, I think breaking down toxic masculinity and bringing new representation to gay people, to gay athletes, I think, is really important. I just think it's a really heartwarming story that shows the struggles of identity, shows two people falling in love when they're doing everything to fight against it. And I just it's such a wonderful moment of queer joy at a time where it just feels post-apocalyptic, like it just feels very bleak, and it's just a really nice escape into what a world could look like when we don't police people on who they should love, who they should be, how they should look. I just think it's a really great story of claiming your space and owning your identity. However you identify, I think anybody can be inspired and relate to it.  DG: Yeah, no, and I'll even add, like I think that the themes can broaden out so much too. It had me asking questions about my own life, about where I am misunderstood, where I'm not able to be myself. I think this show is probably relatable in ways that you might not even realize or expect as you get into it.  HB: Yeah, like, what parts of you are you keeping hidden, whether that's a guilty pleasure or something deeper? I think the more that we can bring things into the light, the more beautiful life is, no matter what. So it's really cool to hear that you got that out of that, too.  DG: Harrison, real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, and I hope you are in season two and can't wait to see you there.  HB: Fingers crossed. Yeah. Thanks for having me.  [THEME MUSIC] DG: Next time on Sports in America, we sit down with one of the most decorated female boxers in history, Claressa Shields. BROADCAST CLIP: She’s never been beaten, and quite frankly, no one’s ever come that close.  DG: But for Claressa to rise to the top, she had to face her toughest opponent: her past. CLARESSA SHIELDS: You have to go through adversity to see what you're really about. Nobody wants a story where you win the whole time DG: We’ll relive Claressa’s historic journey to the Olympics, we'll learn how to let go of resentment, and we'll find out what it takes to become a champion.  CS: I didn't become a statistic when I had every reason to become one. DG: That’s next time, on Sports in America.  And we also want to hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That’s sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks everybody, we’ll see you next time for more Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find sports in America on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, the iHeart radio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts. Well, just one quick reminder, new podcast episodes of the show drop every Thursday now. So Thursday is when you can expect the feed to update. Thanks so much for listening to Sports in America.