Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Susan Smith Drowns Her Boys, HAS MULTIPLE LOVERS BEHIND BARS

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Susan Smith Drowns Her Boys, HAS MULTIPLE LOVERS BEHIND BARS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with me. It's a grease you think we
0:15
Speaker 1: would ever hear the last of Susan Smith. Yes, Susan Smith,
0:22
Speaker 1: remember her? Okay, you know what. I'm going to play
0:25
Speaker 1: a nine on one call to jog your memory. But
0:27
Speaker 1: first I mean to see grace and this is Crime Stories.
0:31
Speaker 1: I've got an all star panel with me to make
0:34
Speaker 1: sense of what's happening with Susan Smith right now. Thank
0:39
Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Crime Stories and
0:41
Speaker 1: on Serious XEM one eleven. See if this jogs your memory,
0:45
Speaker 1: listen good ma'aol lovey.
0:47
Speaker 2: He's a lady.
0:48
Speaker 3: You come on dot door and see some guy dum
0:52
Speaker 3: to a red light with her car, put her two
0:54
Speaker 3: kids in it, and he took off and she got
0:56
Speaker 3: out of call here at Ohio.
0:59
Speaker 1: Yes, laol, let her call it.
1:00
Speaker 3: I don't I need to go along, you know down
1:04
Speaker 3: here Anna Cary, but we need to.
1:11
Speaker 1: Aga prody day.
1:12
Speaker 4: What color? Was it?
1:13
Speaker 5: A burgundy?
1:14
Speaker 3: Magda protege?
1:16
Speaker 6: We don't get him going pay him?
1:17
Speaker 1: I got two. I love that degree of detail. You know.
1:23
Speaker 1: I don't even know where to go first because I've
1:24
Speaker 1: got such awesome experts. But I'm going to go first
1:27
Speaker 1: with Chris mcdonna. He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay,
1:31
Speaker 1: don't care. Former homicide detective starting to care, getting warm,
1:35
Speaker 1: getting warm, getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel,
1:39
Speaker 1: the Interview Room where I found him. You can find
1:42
Speaker 1: him at Coldcase Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room.
1:47
Speaker 1: Former homicide detective. Three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.
1:55
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, don't you love the degree of detail? Hey?
1:59
Speaker 1: You know what? Send me? Sometimes you got to hear
2:02
Speaker 1: the best stuff. Can you play that one more time? Listen? Yes,
2:05
Speaker 1: layol love and.
2:06
Speaker 3: He's a lady. You come on out door and she's
2:10
Speaker 3: some guy dumping into a red light with her car
2:12
Speaker 3: with her two kids in it, and he took off.
2:15
Speaker 3: He got out of call here at Ohio. Yes, layo,
2:18
Speaker 3: let her call it. I don't see and I need
2:22
Speaker 3: to go along.
2:22
Speaker 1: Get him down here, Anna Cary.
2:25
Speaker 3: But we need to add we kind of up a
2:30
Speaker 3: magna protege.
2:31
Speaker 1: What color was it?
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Speaker 3: A burgundy magna protege.
2:35
Speaker 1: We don't get him going payhim? They got take I'll
2:37
Speaker 1: call all the detail, Chris McDonough. She's quote real hysterical
2:44
Speaker 1: and you need to call along and get him down
2:46
Speaker 1: here right now, and you hear her feeding details in
2:51
Speaker 1: the background.
2:53
Speaker 7: Nancy wasn't deaf the narratives that captivated America.
2:57
Speaker 1: How can you be so calm?
3:00
Speaker 7: You know, we just get used to it.
3:03
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, right it's what somebody still get very angry, very angry.
3:08
Speaker 1: And I know the end of this story. But the detail.
3:12
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen perps and they will spin you
3:14
Speaker 1: a yarn with such incredibly rich detail.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and
3:24
Speaker 7: that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she
3:29
Speaker 7: kicked it off right from that nine one one.
3:31
Speaker 8: Call from the beginning, the beginning, running up to somebody's
3:36
Speaker 8: house talking about some guy jumps out, and you know
3:39
Speaker 8: this occurs in rural Union County, South Carolina, near the
3:43
Speaker 8: John D.
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Speaker 1: Long Lake. And you know, hold on, Chris McDonald, where
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Speaker 1: do you live, Chris?
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Speaker 7: Well, right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in
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Speaker 7: South Carolina right there in Mount Plus.
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Speaker 1: You're very familiar with this area. Let me go to
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Speaker 1: another country boy like this country girl right here and
4:02
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan joining me, although he's gotten pretty high
4:06
Speaker 1: falutin a professor Forensis Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
4:11
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet, still waiting on another book to come out.
4:15
Speaker 1: Host of Bodybag's hit podcast, now starring My Goodness Joe
4:21
Speaker 1: Scott In The Pike County Murders A Family Massacre is
4:25
Speaker 1: going to premiere on Oxygen November twenty four at eight pm.
4:31
Speaker 1: There is going to be the first Pike County murder,
4:33
Speaker 1: then the second Pike County murder after the first one,
4:37
Speaker 1: November twenty four at eight pm on Oxygen. Then the
4:40
Speaker 1: next night, Friday Night, the third episode of Pike County
4:45
Speaker 1: Murders A Family Masacre. Am I through plugging everything? Or
4:48
Speaker 1: is there? What are you starting in a movie with
4:52
Speaker 1: Meryl Streep? Am I leaving anything out? Joe Scott Morgan,
4:55
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted after all of that. I know I'm completely
4:58
Speaker 1: exhausted just reading your CV. But that said, this area
5:03
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonoughh has lived in South Carolina. I've gone to
5:07
Speaker 1: this scene before. It's extremely rural, and I'm supposed to
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Speaker 1: believe A guy jumps out of what from behind a
5:14
Speaker 1: stop sign and hijacks her car and takes off with
5:18
Speaker 1: the children clearly in the back seat. Two little boys.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have
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Speaker 2: somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether
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Speaker 2: or not they had an awareness that these poor little
5:30
Speaker 2: angels were buckled down in those back seats, the fact
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Speaker 2: that you would have this kind of aggressive behavior in
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Speaker 2: that location where she was specifically targeted as an investigator,
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Speaker 2: I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and I'm going
5:46
Speaker 2: to take a long look at what she has to say, because,
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Speaker 2: as you and I both know, Nancy, the line share,
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Speaker 2: the line share of home sides that we talked about
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Speaker 2: have some kind of familial connection. That means that you're around,
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Speaker 2: intimate those individuals that are most important. So you're going
6:02
Speaker 2: to tell me that random stranger just came up and
6:06
Speaker 2: kidnapped these babies and run off with them and left
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Speaker 2: her standing on the side of the road weeping.
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Speaker 1: Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdonah,
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Speaker 1: I am going along with everything he says, but he's
6:16
Speaker 1: a wily one. You got to really watching watch what
6:19
Speaker 1: Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect,
6:24
Speaker 1: but did you hear him say if the unknown male
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Speaker 1: assailant noticed the children in the back seat? I'm looking
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Speaker 1: right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege, you can
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Speaker 1: see straight into the back seat from every angle of
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Speaker 1: the car. It's not like you know, you see those
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Speaker 1: black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's
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Speaker 1: going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's
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Speaker 1: going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at
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Speaker 1: a shot from the distance, I can see through the
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Speaker 1: back window, through the back dash, and through the other
7:02
Speaker 1: side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely
7:06
Speaker 1: see that children were strapped into car seats in the
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Speaker 1: back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take
7:14
Speaker 1: a listen to the nine one one call. Listen union one.
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Speaker 3: Of us, one of five gohead said it was a
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Speaker 3: black male driving a burg Indeed, protegead affirmit that won
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Speaker 3: to find.
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Speaker 5: They had two jeweled wit It was one I find
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Speaker 5: for one understood these were small children.
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Speaker 6: These are her children, and she jumped out of the car,
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Speaker 6: and he took the car with the children and he
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Speaker 6: headed toy Chestra one hundred heed the.
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Speaker 1: Victors call family from one I gathered by the call,
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Speaker 1: they are not this is a stranger that had jumped
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Speaker 1: in the lady's car.
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Speaker 3: At a red light, and she jumped.
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Speaker 1: Out, I mean really, Tara, and I'm leading up to
8:01
Speaker 1: what Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me
8:05
Speaker 1: tell you that involves six different men, that said Tara,
8:09
Speaker 1: Malick joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith
8:13
Speaker 1: and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor. Tara once again
8:20
Speaker 1: blame the black man. I remember when this happened. I
8:23
Speaker 1: was trying a case and I looked over at my friend,
8:29
Speaker 1: my colleague, who went on to be a judge, I
8:33
Speaker 1: might add, and I went, herman, have you seen the
8:37
Speaker 1: composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And yeah,
8:42
Speaker 1: I know what you're gonna say, Yeah, it looks just
8:45
Speaker 1: like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial
8:52
Speaker 1: partner who had come into court to bail me out
8:55
Speaker 1: of some sling. I got in with the judge with
8:59
Speaker 1: some law trying to suggest that I was right and
9:02
Speaker 1: whatever I did, but he went, yeah, I've heard I
9:06
Speaker 1: looked just like this, Susan Smith purk and he did.
9:11
Speaker 1: I mean, think about it, Tara, an innocent person could
9:16
Speaker 1: have been arrested and probably tried and convicted based on
9:21
Speaker 1: her fake composite and all of her lies like my herman,
9:26
Speaker 1: one of my best friends in the DA's office. Yeah.
9:28
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean the crime itself was atrocious and horrific
9:32
Speaker 5: and terrible. And then and then, you know, to give
9:35
Speaker 5: this false profile of someone else who may have done it,
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Speaker 5: wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,
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Speaker 5: like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of
9:47
Speaker 5: being picked.
9:48
Speaker 7: Up for it.
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Speaker 5: And it's just mind boggling.
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Speaker 9: That she would go down this road.
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Speaker 1: You know, I've dealt with the sod defense many times.
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Speaker 1: I named it that some other d did it. So
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Speaker 1: d D, here you go, some other dude did it,
10:02
Speaker 1: and listen to her. Listen.
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Speaker 4: I would like us to stay to whoever has my children,
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Speaker 4: that they please please bring.
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Speaker 1: Them home.
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Speaker 4: To us where they belong.
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Speaker 1: You play that one more time.
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Speaker 4: I would like us to stay to whoever has my children,
10:27
Speaker 4: that they please they please bring them home to us
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Speaker 4: where they belong.
10:49
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Greece, Doctor Bethany Marshall. I hate
10:54
Speaker 1: to drag you away from all your clients on radio
10:57
Speaker 1: drive complaining about how expensive this she use and the
11:00
Speaker 1: designer bags are. By the way, I think I've told
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Speaker 1: you this, it's rodeo, r odeo. It is not rodeo.
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Speaker 1: That said doctor Bethany Marshall joining with us as much
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Speaker 1: as I'm pulling her legs. She's a renownced psychoanalyst at
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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact,
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Speaker 1: she now has a recurring role in Paris in Love
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Speaker 1: season two. That said, doctor Bethany, I don't get it
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Speaker 1: right now, we've got that. I know of six men,
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Speaker 1: six men sexting and texting and writing and sending money
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Speaker 1: and love letters to Susan Smith when she is a
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Speaker 1: ball faced liar that your children in the worst way,
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Speaker 1: letting her car, her Burgundy protege go down a ramp
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Speaker 1: with the two boys alive, strapped in the back seat.
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Speaker 1: Why I don't get it. Why would men want to
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Speaker 1: be with this woman, send her money and sex text
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Speaker 1: with her? But did you hear her lie? Do you
12:16
Speaker 1: remember when that happened? Crying and the snotting and all
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Speaker 1: that happening. And I want to say, you ever has
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Speaker 1: my children, they please please bring them home to us
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Speaker 1: where they belong, knowing full well they drowned strapped in
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Speaker 1: their car seats.
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Speaker 9: We'll show how immature she is at the most basic
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Speaker 9: level that she.
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Speaker 1: Okay, the most you could say she's immature. She murdered
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Speaker 1: two little boys.
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Speaker 9: We know she's a sociopath, but what beyond the fact
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Speaker 9: that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there that
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Speaker 9: would lead to this? And one is an over attachment
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Speaker 9: to men. And she loves that feeling of falling in love,
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Speaker 9: the feeling you have the first day.
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Speaker 1: How are you linking this to double murder. Why this
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Speaker 1: woman did not get the death penalty, I do not know.
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Speaker 1: And now there's six guys trying to have sex with
13:13
Speaker 1: are really.
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Speaker 9: Ill, But it's really a pathological attachment to men, like
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Speaker 9: being in a barrel with a rattlesnake.
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Speaker 1: Who was that?
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Speaker 9: Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't fantaside,
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Speaker 9: who kill their children often have some really First of all,
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Speaker 9: they were usually what we call cluster B then or not.
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Speaker 1: I really have some sexy measure going on, because I'm
13:38
Speaker 1: totally cutting your mind.
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Speaker 9: Okay, So their cluster B which means they have three
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Speaker 9: different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a
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Speaker 9: very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children
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Speaker 9: to get back at the love object, like I'm going
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Speaker 9: to kill our children because I'm mad at you. I
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Speaker 9: hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,
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Speaker 9: but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.
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Speaker 9: So it's either I'm going to kill the children to
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Speaker 9: get back at you, or I'm going to kill the
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Speaker 9: children if they found a new guy, and I don't
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Speaker 9: want the children to be in the way.
14:18
Speaker 1: Interesting that you said that, interesting, But I also want
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Speaker 1: you to hear the level of detail that she waves
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Speaker 1: into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.
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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being
14:37
Speaker 1: strapped in a car, can't get out. The car goes
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Speaker 1: underwater a muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming
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Speaker 1: for mommy as that car fills up with water till
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Speaker 1: you drown. Listen to our cut for Crime Online.
14:56
Speaker 6: On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks
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Speaker 6: on the door of a house John D. Long Lake.
15:01
Speaker 6: She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells
15:04
Speaker 6: him to call the police. A black man just carjacked
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Speaker 6: her at a red light he had a gun and
15:09
Speaker 6: she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,
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Speaker 6: three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are
15:14
Speaker 6: still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the
15:17
Speaker 6: nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.
15:21
Speaker 6: Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,
15:24
Speaker 6: and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom
15:27
Speaker 6: Findley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why
15:30
Speaker 6: she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.
15:33
Speaker 6: On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets
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Speaker 6: with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with
15:40
Speaker 6: the press.
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Speaker 1: Okay, note to self, who is Tom Finley? But there's more.
15:48
Speaker 1: There's more. Listen.
15:49
Speaker 6: Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can.
15:52
Speaker 6: When she finally admits what she's done, there never was
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Speaker 6: a black man with a gun that stole her car
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Speaker 6: with her kids in the back. She now says she
15:59
Speaker 6: went out for a d with their sons buckled into
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Speaker 6: their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.
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Speaker 6: She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake
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Speaker 6: and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith
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Speaker 6: puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into
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Speaker 6: the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps
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Speaker 6: out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions
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Speaker 6: for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the
16:21
Speaker 6: vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into
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Speaker 6: their seats.
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Speaker 1: Just let that soakn for just one moment, claiming you know,
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Speaker 1: why is it, Chris mcdona, that all these people that
16:32
Speaker 1: want to commit suicide end up killing their children or
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Speaker 1: their family or somebody else hed they miraculously live.
16:38
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, just a horrific thought in of itself, right,
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Speaker 7: Nancamy Knight. I actually drove the entire route that Susan
16:46
Speaker 7: Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for her
16:52
Speaker 7: to change her mind and turn around. I mean there
16:55
Speaker 7: were stop signs, there were you know, through residential neighborhoods.
17:00
Speaker 7: And to think that she was saying to the public,
17:02
Speaker 7: you know, or to the police when she initially confessed, well,
17:06
Speaker 7: you know, I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't
17:10
Speaker 7: do it, et cetera. So I jumped out. You know,
17:13
Speaker 7: when you go to that boat ramp where these poor
17:15
Speaker 7: little babies are strapped in those back seats and as
17:18
Speaker 7: that car is going down that ramp, I would submit
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Speaker 7: to you she had gotten out of that car almost
17:24
Speaker 7: immediately and let that car go to your point a
17:28
Speaker 7: couple of minutes ago. And as that water started to
17:31
Speaker 7: fill that vehicle, can you imagine the horror that these
17:35
Speaker 7: children were experiencing and the mother standing there as that
17:41
Speaker 7: vehicle started to sink. It took about six I think
17:45
Speaker 7: between six to fifteen seconds for that vehicle to hit
17:48
Speaker 7: the water, and within a minute it was submerged.
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Speaker 9: Yanthia just shows how cold blood she is. She could
17:55
Speaker 9: stand on the shore look at the car submerged and
18:00
Speaker 9: knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives you
18:02
Speaker 9: insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.
18:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, who is this woman? Take a listen hour cut
18:13
Speaker 1: three from crime online dot Com.
18:15
Speaker 6: After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's
18:18
Speaker 6: a baby on the way and the pair decided to
18:20
Speaker 6: get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and
18:23
Speaker 6: Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.
18:27
Speaker 6: The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,
18:30
Speaker 6: Susan Smith begins dating Tom Findley the single son of
18:34
Speaker 6: a wealthy mill owner.
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Speaker 1: Aha, So that is who Tom Finley is, Okay. Tara Mallick,
18:42
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us from our own law firm,
18:45
Speaker 1: Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive she wants to
18:49
Speaker 1: be with this rich guy? Yeah?
18:51
Speaker 5: I think you know, the painted in different ways during
18:54
Speaker 5: the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony. One
18:59
Speaker 5: of the theories of the case that was put on
19:02
Speaker 5: and suspected was that she wanted.
19:06
Speaker 9: To be with Thomas Finley.
19:08
Speaker 5: Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had
19:10
Speaker 5: two kids, and in a way or in an attempt
19:13
Speaker 5: to get back together with Finley, who she was having
19:17
Speaker 5: an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.
19:21
Speaker 5: The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,
19:24
Speaker 5: you know, she was someone who was an abused child,
19:29
Speaker 5: she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she
19:32
Speaker 5: was frightened of her.
19:34
Speaker 7: Husband, you know.
19:35
Speaker 9: And so I think those.
19:38
Speaker 5: Details this jury ended up grappling with. And it's a
19:42
Speaker 5: case that should have been a death penalty case, but
19:44
Speaker 5: unfortunately not here.
19:45
Speaker 1: You know, isn't it true? Dave matt joining us from
19:48
Speaker 1: crime online dot Com that Finley broke it off with
19:52
Speaker 1: her claimbing he did not want an instant family.
19:56
Speaker 6: He did and nanty more to the point, are more
19:59
Speaker 6: than just saying I don't want kids. There were other
20:01
Speaker 6: things he stated in there about her and their relationship.
20:05
Speaker 6: He also cited their different upbringings and that that was
20:09
Speaker 6: a big stumbling block. Another one the way Susan Smith
20:14
Speaker 6: acted and flirted with other men. He didn't like that,
20:18
Speaker 6: so he mentioned three basic things that he really didn't
20:21
Speaker 6: want an instant family. But these other two things were
20:23
Speaker 6: mentioned as well, And one was her own behavior of
20:26
Speaker 6: hitting on other men. But she dismisses that in her
20:30
Speaker 6: thought process, blames it all on the kids and thinks
20:32
Speaker 6: she's seen get them back if she just gets rid
20:34
Speaker 6: of that. She doesn't address the fact that she hits
20:37
Speaker 6: on men all the time.
20:38
Speaker 1: So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley,
20:43
Speaker 1: the son of the rich guy, when she and her
20:47
Speaker 1: husband were what divorce separated?
20:50
Speaker 9: What separated?
20:51
Speaker 6: They actually when they were married, they had several full
20:55
Speaker 6: on separations where they were not living together, were dating
20:59
Speaker 6: other people, and yet they would then get back together
21:03
Speaker 6: and it was on and off for I think, I
21:06
Speaker 6: mean after they had the last time he was fourteen
21:08
Speaker 6: months old. Well, this happened, so it was an ongoing
21:10
Speaker 6: process in their relationship, that breaking out getting back together.
21:14
Speaker 1: Let me get back to doctor Bethony Marshall, what do
21:16
Speaker 1: you make of this? It was always presented that Finley
21:22
Speaker 1: broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,
21:26
Speaker 1: But according to the letter he sent her before she
21:29
Speaker 1: murdered her to little Boys, it was a lot more
21:32
Speaker 1: than that.
21:34
Speaker 9: He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny
21:37
Speaker 9: of the country and the court and saying, well, I
21:39
Speaker 9: didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think
21:42
Speaker 9: a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for
21:44
Speaker 9: a family and children and he was contemplating that. And
21:48
Speaker 9: I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who
21:51
Speaker 9: would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to
21:53
Speaker 9: be with her. She would think, oh, you know, i'll
21:55
Speaker 9: buy any dress. Oh I'll go shopping. Oh i'll buy
21:58
Speaker 9: some listic, I'll wear a low dress. Oh I'll just
22:00
Speaker 9: kill my children. I mean just she would just throw
22:03
Speaker 9: everything at it to get him back. So I think
22:06
Speaker 9: if he was ambivalent about her, that may have even
22:09
Speaker 9: incentivized her to kill her children.
22:12
Speaker 1: Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were
22:17
Speaker 1: other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision
22:22
Speaker 1: to break it off with her. Not only that he
22:25
Speaker 1: did not want an instant family, but he did not
22:28
Speaker 1: like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He
22:33
Speaker 1: didn't want that.
22:34
Speaker 9: I think some women relate primarily to men because they
22:38
Speaker 9: feel they can seduce them, and I think this was
22:41
Speaker 9: probably her mo that the minute she met a man,
22:43
Speaker 9: she would be furicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she
22:47
Speaker 9: would try to attract them. She probably did that all
22:51
Speaker 9: the time because this is a way of feeling important,
22:54
Speaker 9: like she's a real person in the real world, and
22:58
Speaker 9: she doesn't really have to relate to the man. If
23:00
Speaker 9: it's sexual in an instant, then they never become real
23:04
Speaker 9: people to her. They're all just objects, little objects who
23:08
Speaker 9: flatter her.
23:08
Speaker 6: Listen, now are cut for Susan Smith is planning a
23:11
Speaker 6: future with the best catch in the county. When she
23:13
Speaker 6: gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom, he explains
23:17
Speaker 6: he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the
23:20
Speaker 6: difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men,
23:23
Speaker 6: and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want
23:26
Speaker 6: children right now, Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior
23:30
Speaker 6: towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship.
23:33
Speaker 6: And the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't
23:36
Speaker 6: want children, so.
23:37
Speaker 1: She ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,
23:42
Speaker 1: and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,
23:46
Speaker 1: Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic
23:52
Speaker 1: relationship with at least six men behind bars. Okay, what
23:59
Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, there are precursors to today's report
24:04
Speaker 1: of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors will
24:10
Speaker 1: listener ourcut ten.
24:12
Speaker 6: A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten
24:15
Speaker 6: by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth
24:17
Speaker 6: to an investigation into the matter. While there was no
24:20
Speaker 6: proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that
24:23
Speaker 6: she had four sexual encounters. Lieutenant Houston Cagele, a supervisor
24:27
Speaker 6: at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.
24:33
Speaker 6: Cagil admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and
24:36
Speaker 6: was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.
24:39
Speaker 6: Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined
24:41
Speaker 6: for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old
24:43
Speaker 6: Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In
24:47
Speaker 6: two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also
24:50
Speaker 6: pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced
24:53
Speaker 6: to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan
24:56
Speaker 6: Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested
25:00
Speaker 6: positive for an STD.
25:01
Speaker 1: Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns
25:07
Speaker 1: an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She
25:11
Speaker 1: was sleeping with various prison guards. Just Scott Morgan remind me,
25:14
Speaker 1: what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator.
25:18
Speaker 2: One of the most horrible desks that you can even
25:22
Speaker 2: begin to think about. And the fact is, the thing
25:27
Speaker 2: that's always bothered me about this case, Nancy, is that
25:31
Speaker 2: with Alex and Michael, and I think it's really important
25:33
Speaker 2: that I say their names at this moment in time
25:35
Speaker 2: because they are the victims. When they were strapped in
25:38
Speaker 2: those little seats in the back of that Mazda and
25:42
Speaker 2: that tight, little confined place where maybe their mother had
25:45
Speaker 2: taken them to McDonald's before, had taken them all over town,
25:48
Speaker 2: and suddenly they're at the edge of a boat ramp
25:50
Speaker 2: and they're thinking, you know, what's mama doing? Now? You know,
25:54
Speaker 2: she gets out of the car and as that car
25:57
Speaker 2: is left and neutral and goes down that boat ramp
26:00
Speaker 2: and begins to slowly sink beneath those dark waters out there.
26:04
Speaker 2: You know, they found that car about one hundred and
26:05
Speaker 2: twenty feet off of the shore. The dive team had
26:10
Speaker 2: looked for it for some period of time. Car was
26:13
Speaker 2: filled with water. Those kids were still strapped in that
26:16
Speaker 2: back seat. And our reaction as humans, if we're trying
26:20
Speaker 2: to catch our breath, is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy,
26:24
Speaker 2: they're strapped. We've all got babies in our families that
26:27
Speaker 2: we've taken care of. We strapped them in car seats.
26:30
Speaker 2: And you ever seen a child struggle to get out
26:33
Speaker 2: of the car seat.
26:33
Speaker 1: They're tired of.
26:34
Speaker 2: Being in it. Well, imagine that only water's creeping up
26:37
Speaker 2: on you. Water's getting into your nose, your little mouth,
26:41
Speaker 2: your eyes, You're running out of oxygen. Your brain is screaming.
26:46
Speaker 2: It's on fire because there's no oxygen, you can't catch
26:49
Speaker 2: your breath, and you have no idea. It's panic that's
26:54
Speaker 2: setting in and it would not have been. I just
26:57
Speaker 2: wanted to spell any kind of fans see somebody might
27:01
Speaker 2: be having right now, that this was a sudden and
27:03
Speaker 2: a quick death. It wasn't. It was torturous. It was
27:07
Speaker 2: absolutely horrific what these babies went through at that moment,
27:11
Speaker 2: Tom Nancy, And I'm with you. I'm still to this
27:15
Speaker 2: day just befuddled. Why she's not sitting on death row
27:20
Speaker 2: and you know, forever and ever she's getting going with
27:24
Speaker 2: her life. No, isn't She and those babies died, died
27:28
Speaker 2: at this monster's hands out there out there in that lake.
27:30
Speaker 1: Knowing full well what she did, immediately running to a
27:34
Speaker 1: nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had jumped into
27:40
Speaker 1: her car. And I guess the only red light in
27:41
Speaker 1: the county. And I feel okay saying that because where
27:45
Speaker 1: I grew up that we didn't even have a red light,
27:47
Speaker 1: So out of the entire county, an unknown assailant jumps
27:52
Speaker 1: into her car at the one red light, takes her
27:55
Speaker 1: car and murders her children. Okay, this is the woman.
28:01
Speaker 1: These guys want to be with. Now six at least
28:05
Speaker 1: six men speaking of them, there's a matter of Captain
28:11
Speaker 1: Alfred Rowe. Now we heard about Cagel Kagile, a supervisor
28:17
Speaker 1: at South Carolina Women's ci Correctional Institute, and what happened
28:22
Speaker 1: with him. We know that he was ultimately identified because
28:30
Speaker 1: Susan Smith turned up with an std behind bars. But
28:33
Speaker 1: there's more. Take a listen to our cut eleven. Does
28:36
Speaker 1: she not realize there are consequences to actions.
28:39
Speaker 6: Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost
28:42
Speaker 6: their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.
28:45
Speaker 6: Rose says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition
28:49
Speaker 6: that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling
28:51
Speaker 6: him she thought he was the nicest officer at the
28:53
Speaker 6: prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says
28:57
Speaker 6: things just escalated from there. Roe claims he had sex
29:00
Speaker 6: with Smith one time, but it cost him everything. He
29:03
Speaker 6: was fired from the job, lost his pension, and after
29:06
Speaker 6: pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was sentenced
29:09
Speaker 6: to five years probation.
29:10
Speaker 1: Now that's Captain Alfred Rowe who loses his job. He's fired,
29:17
Speaker 1: lost his pension. That he's been working for for years
29:22
Speaker 1: and plays guilty and gets put on probation. Is that
29:25
Speaker 1: a hallmark of this type of personality? Dr Bethany Marshall
29:29
Speaker 1: That there are they think there are no consequences to
29:32
Speaker 1: what they do, or they don't worry about the consequences.
29:35
Speaker 1: How does that work?
29:36
Speaker 9: Well, first of all, I wouldn't let this prison guard
29:38
Speaker 9: off so easy. I just have to throw that out there.
29:41
Speaker 9: He works around disturbed women all the time who are
29:44
Speaker 9: probably sexualized with him. But putting that aside, I don't
29:49
Speaker 9: think Susan Smith can even fathom a consequence. I think
29:54
Speaker 9: if you did a brain scan, you would see that
29:58
Speaker 9: the area is responsible for empathy, the impulse control, all
30:02
Speaker 9: of that would probably not even light up. She probably
30:05
Speaker 9: has a different brain than the rest of us, you know,
30:08
Speaker 9: smri stands of sociopath do show that they have profoundly
30:13
Speaker 9: different functioning. But think of her as she kind of
30:17
Speaker 9: operates at the level of a three year old in
30:21
Speaker 9: some way in some ways because she or two year
30:24
Speaker 9: old grabs for whatever she wants and then operates also
30:28
Speaker 9: like at the immaturity level of a fourteen or fifteen
30:30
Speaker 9: year old who just has crushes on boys all the time,
30:33
Speaker 9: and you know that's all she can think about. So,
30:36
Speaker 9: you know, in terms of what swirling around in her head,
30:39
Speaker 9: I'm sure it's just being gratified and thinking she can
30:43
Speaker 9: get away with it.
30:44
Speaker 1: Well, guys, she was moved. Take a list an hour
30:47
Speaker 1: cut twelve.
30:48
Speaker 6: Sex isn't the only issue. Susan Smith is faced in prison.
30:51
Speaker 6: Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan
30:54
Speaker 6: Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more
30:57
Speaker 6: than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalator when she
31:00
Speaker 6: switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South
31:03
Speaker 6: Carolina to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former
31:08
Speaker 6: prison guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex
31:10
Speaker 6: with Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate
31:13
Speaker 6: Secrets when Smith was moved from one prison to another
31:16
Speaker 6: that it was at that point where quote she could
31:19
Speaker 6: no longer get the mail attention that she used as
31:21
Speaker 6: a drug unquote, and instead turned to pill.
31:24
Speaker 1: Which led to a series of drug infractions. But you
31:27
Speaker 1: know what, let's fast forward to right now to today.
31:32
Speaker 1: Take a listen hour cut.
31:33
Speaker 6: Fifteen Susan Smith dreams of the day she'll be released.
31:36
Speaker 6: To that end, she's taken to writing a number of
31:39
Speaker 6: men over the years. In March of twenty twenty two,
31:41
Speaker 6: People magazine gained access to letter Smith wrote to a
31:44
Speaker 6: long distance boyfriend. In one letter, she wrote, I can't
31:47
Speaker 6: wait to build a life with you, leave the past
31:50
Speaker 6: mistakes behind and start fresh, just you and me. A
31:53
Speaker 6: relative of Smith told People Magazine at the time that
31:55
Speaker 6: Smith wants everything in life that she believes has passed
31:59
Speaker 6: her by.
32:00
Speaker 1: So everything in life she wanted passed her by because
32:05
Speaker 1: she committed murder. Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Tara Malick
32:25
Speaker 1: is with US high profile lawyer joining us out of
32:27
Speaker 1: Boise from the firm. Smith and Malick the narrative, her
32:33
Speaker 1: story that she projects is so different from reality. Life
32:38
Speaker 1: has not passed her by. She committed double murder. That
32:43
Speaker 1: that's what happened. It's not anyone's fault but her own. Absolutely.
32:48
Speaker 5: I mean, and if life passed her by, how does
32:53
Speaker 5: she characterize what she did to her son? She took
32:57
Speaker 5: their life away. They didn't even have the opportunit tunity
33:00
Speaker 5: to live a life. I mean, these were really young
33:03
Speaker 5: kids here and I think, you know, the pattern of
33:06
Speaker 5: behavior that she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked
33:11
Speaker 5: up while.
33:12
Speaker 9: She's been in prison. I mean, all of this.
33:14
Speaker 5: Doesn't tend to show that this is someone who has
33:17
Speaker 5: been rehabilitated while in prison. I mean, she's still showing
33:20
Speaker 5: those signs of manipulation that you know she engaged in
33:25
Speaker 5: before she was convicted in sensus, you know, leading on
33:30
Speaker 5: the nation form nine days, telling lies about what actually happened,
33:34
Speaker 5: telling lies and printing fingers of people that didn't exist.
33:36
Speaker 5: So this is a really deeply disturbed individualized shocked. The
33:41
Speaker 5: prol board granted her request.
33:44
Speaker 1: Chris mcdunna with me, a former homicide detective and host
33:48
Speaker 1: of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated at
33:52
Speaker 1: least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,
33:57
Speaker 1: very charming. Think about Scott Peterson or doctor Martin McNeil,
34:03
Speaker 1: who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan
34:08
Speaker 1: Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy
34:13
Speaker 1: and that she quote always had a messy love life.
34:19
Speaker 1: She's creating a fictional version of her life and people
34:25
Speaker 1: are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts are buying
34:30
Speaker 1: it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic
34:34
Speaker 1: interludes with her. Chris McDonough, have you ever met a
34:39
Speaker 1: charming murder defendant? Because I have absolutely Nancy.
34:43
Speaker 7: And what's interesting about her is we have to always
34:47
Speaker 7: remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past
34:52
Speaker 7: behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she
34:57
Speaker 7: has always threw out her entire case, and through her
35:01
Speaker 7: life here while in prison and even before prison, she
35:05
Speaker 7: always sometimes projected the words of day into her vocabulary.
35:12
Speaker 7: And if we listen real carefully to the minutia of
35:16
Speaker 7: what she said in the very beginning, whoever they are,
35:20
Speaker 7: please bring them home. E. She's talking about two suspects,
35:26
Speaker 7: but she talks about one in terms of a description.
35:30
Speaker 7: And now if we fast forward that to today, we
35:34
Speaker 7: have six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure
35:39
Speaker 7: that piece of the puzzle out. You know, that's that's
35:42
Speaker 7: for the doctors to tell us what that's all about.
35:44
Speaker 7: But she is utilizing that behavior still to this day,
35:51
Speaker 7: by talking about money, by talking about sexual you know,
35:57
Speaker 7: TIFFs there between the two of them, and that she
36:00
Speaker 7: hasn't lost a thought from miss Leopard. And you know,
36:05
Speaker 7: God forbid she gets out in twenty four if she
36:08
Speaker 7: is ever aferole.
36:09
Speaker 9: Yeah, can know something about this real quickly.
36:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. But doctor Bethany, I want you to hear something.
36:15
Speaker 7: Oh sure.
36:16
Speaker 1: One of these guys is an airline pilot and they're
36:19
Speaker 1: creating a fictionalized life for her. Take us an hour eighteen.
36:25
Speaker 6: The man who has built a fake life for Susan
36:27
Speaker 6: Smith and himself in the game. The Simms also has
36:30
Speaker 6: a pet name for the convicted child killer Pooky. The
36:33
Speaker 6: Messenger shared an exchange from August where he writes, dearest Pooky,
36:38
Speaker 6: been thinking of you and miss you so much, hoping
36:41
Speaker 6: I can do something for you soon. Love you so
36:43
Speaker 6: much it hurts your Pooky, the man exchanging these messages
36:48
Speaker 6: with Smith, a sixty year old airline pilot.
36:51
Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Bethany, I don't want him to fight fly
36:53
Speaker 1: my plane. I really don't. I can't tell you why,
36:57
Speaker 1: just a gut instinct.
36:58
Speaker 9: Pe don' nancy. A wise colleague one said to me,
37:01
Speaker 9: the cornerstone of good mental health is having a preference
37:04
Speaker 9: for reality, which we all struggle with. These two are
37:08
Speaker 9: way out of touch with reality. They're building a fantasy life.
37:12
Speaker 9: They have fantasy children. One of the children is even
37:15
Speaker 9: called named after her to See son. So when you
37:19
Speaker 9: live in like a fantasy world, you never have to
37:23
Speaker 9: contend with reality.
37:24
Speaker 1: You know.
37:25
Speaker 9: Imagine when you met your husband. You know, you know,
37:27
Speaker 9: you're having all these wonderful thoughts. It's very idealized at
37:30
Speaker 9: the fun time. But then the reality is he has
37:34
Speaker 9: a personality and you have to share a home with him.
37:36
Speaker 9: Maybe you see him sitting on the toilet, maybe see
37:38
Speaker 9: him blowing his nose. You know, he becomes a real person.
37:41
Speaker 9: But some people only want that initial fantasy. When, to
37:47
Speaker 9: quote Helen Fisher, who's a cultural anthropologist, in the first
37:50
Speaker 9: six months of a relationship, the brain of fires as
37:55
Speaker 9: if it's on cocaine.
37:56
Speaker 1: You know, I'm trying to figure out these guys too,
37:59
Speaker 1: Doctor Beth And because Dave mag joining me Crime online
38:02
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter, one of the men seeking for
38:05
Speaker 1: a romantic interlude with Susan Smith, the double Killer says,
38:10
Speaker 1: she's not what you think she is. I just find
38:13
Speaker 1: her interesting and misunderstood. She's actually set for a parole
38:19
Speaker 1: hearing in November twenty twenty four, that's one year from now.
38:22
Speaker 6: That's what she was sentenced to life, with the possibility
38:25
Speaker 6: of probation after thirty years. The first week of November
38:28
Speaker 6: next year, she will show up in front of the
38:30
Speaker 6: parole board. Her ex husband and the father of those
38:33
Speaker 6: boys is going to be there.
38:35
Speaker 1: You know, jo Scott Morgan, maybe we just know too
38:37
Speaker 1: much when it comes to murderer, because when I think
38:40
Speaker 1: of Susan Smith, I immediately think of being trapped strapped
38:45
Speaker 1: in to a car as it's going down a ramp
38:50
Speaker 1: and going underwater and seeing the water coming up on
38:53
Speaker 1: either side and starting to pour in through the windshiels.
38:57
Speaker 1: It comes up around you and you can't get out out.
39:01
Speaker 1: I mean, the children in this case were three and
39:05
Speaker 1: fourteen months.
39:06
Speaker 2: They never had stood a chance within this environment. And
39:11
Speaker 2: here's another thing that people might not be aware of.
39:16
Speaker 2: After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,
39:22
Speaker 2: one other element we have to consider. And again I
39:25
Speaker 2: go back to the idea that we all have had babies,
39:28
Speaker 2: you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids
39:31
Speaker 2: and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is it
39:35
Speaker 2: the kids are afraid of? Late at night? It's darkness,
39:38
Speaker 2: and it would you would not have been able to
39:41
Speaker 2: have seen your hand in front of your face. So
39:43
Speaker 2: not only are they absent a loving mother who normally
39:48
Speaker 2: you would hope would take care of them, they're disoriented,
39:52
Speaker 2: they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's
39:55
Speaker 2: cold and it's dark down there, And that goes to
39:59
Speaker 2: the lef level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing.
40:04
Speaker 2: I wish, I wish every single one of these so
40:07
Speaker 2: called men that are reaching out to her would would
40:11
Speaker 2: slip over South Carolina at sometime and maybe go to
40:14
Speaker 2: this little United Methodist church where these two little babies
40:16
Speaker 2: are buried and stare at those headstones just for a
40:20
Speaker 2: moment when they're thinking about involving themselves with this individual
40:26
Speaker 2: that they're going to sew. Sew their hearts too, if
40:29
Speaker 2: you will.
40:30
Speaker 9: But they don't care. They're as callous as she is.
40:32
Speaker 9: They don't care about these two little boys that drowned.
40:35
Speaker 9: All they care about is this fantasy life they're in, uh,
40:39
Speaker 9: having phone sex, imagining that she's just waiting for them,
40:45
Speaker 9: that they're going to have this great life when she
40:47
Speaker 9: gets out. You know, these guys are kind of control
40:49
Speaker 9: freaks in a.
40:50
Speaker 1: Way because they they have.
40:52
Speaker 9: Complete in their fantasy life. They have complete control over her.
40:57
Speaker 1: Please contact the South Carolina Pardon Emparole Board at eight
41:02
Speaker 1: and zero three seven three four three five zero five
41:07
Speaker 1: repeat eight zero three seven three four three five zero
41:13
Speaker 1: five These and you guys, she's got on the hook
41:16
Speaker 1: for love and money. That's their problem. But what's on
41:21
Speaker 1: my mind are the two little boys that lost their
41:26
Speaker 1: lives and the John D. Long Lake Goodbye friend.