Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 857: The Untold Story of ECW’s Rise & Fall with John Philapavage

Transcript

IFH 857: The Untold Story of ECW’s Rise & Fall with John Philapavage · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: fifty seven. Cinema Should make You forget You're sitting in
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: a theater, Roman Polanski.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: I am your humble.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: prey upon them. The odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: The old distribution model of making money with your film
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: is broken, and there needs to be a change the
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker or the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: film entrepreneur. In Rise of the Film Entrepreneur, I break
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: down how to actually make money with your film projects
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: and show you how to turn your indie film into
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: a profitable business. With case studies examining successes and failures.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: This book shows you the step by step method to
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: turn your passion into a profitable career. If you're making
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: a feature film, series, or any other kind of video content,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: the Film Entrepreneur method will set you up for success.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: If you want to order it, just head over to
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: www dot filmbizbook dot com. That's film bizbook dot com.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: Shooting me today is John Philipavage. John is the co
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: director and producer of bourb Wire City, the unoff rized
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: story of Extreme Championship Wrestling. John, how are you?
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: I am well? Thank you for having me man, Oh
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: my pleasure.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: The last time we saw each other was at the
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: premiere of Barbara City.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: Correct and full disclosure, because he gave me an awesome
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: I wasn't positive I had met Dave, and I probably
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: had like a conversation with him, but as he noted
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: to me, I was running around like completely overwhelmed, trying
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: to like help run that show. So I thought that
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: I that I met Dave, but I did ask him
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: off there if I met Dave. Yes, that would be
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: April of what twenty thirteen? We did that, so almost
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: two and a half years there. Yeah, talk to you.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do remember that. And believe me, John, I've
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: been there, man. I know how it is. You know,
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: you go into, you go into you know, you're doing
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: these events and it's just like everything blurs together of
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: people and events and time and everything. It just sort
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: of all go messages together.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: That whole night was shut. It was a culmination of
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: like thirteen years of work. And I not like I
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: shouldn't even say it like that. It was, you know,
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: got the idea. In February of two thousand, started making notes.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: I was working with Kevin, the other co director who
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: worked with me on this project. I mean he's a
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: childhood friend of mine. We were working together at a
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: car wash and I started, I think I wrote four
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: names down and I said, hey, would you do this
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: for me? And Originally it was like I wanted to
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: write a book because I was a writer, and we
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: did you know, quote unquote boy was videography. We were like,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: you know, even in two thousand, I would have been
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: I would have just turned what nineteen that month, Actually
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: I was nineteen when I had the idea. I wrote
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: four names down. I don't even know that we interviewed
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: any of those four people. Actually I think one. I
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: think one actually, and yes, this So thirteen years later
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: and certain years and one month later or two months later,
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: we finish it, and like everybody that I ever know
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: was there, plus all these amazing people I met through
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: the raising fund your cake starter, including yourself, And then
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: I had to, like, you know, it was so dili.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: I had to like help run the thing I was
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: telling you off there that I said to somebody like, Okay,
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: we have to do the Q and A. So I
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: need to find these people and like let them in.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: I told them to come to this door and like
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: who's getting the cheesecakes? And one of the other people said, well,
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: I have to do this, and the other person said, well,
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: I've got to do this techt thing. And so I
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: had to run down to Tony Luke and get the
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: cheese steaks that we had promised the people for to
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: do a Q and A with me, So I didn't
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: get to have an ego moment and feel like a start.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: I had to go get cheesecakes and give them to
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: people and answer your questions. But it was at the
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: point is it was like an amazing night that I
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: never thought that we would get to that point and
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: that was a big deal, and like you always want
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: to do more stuff, but it is one of those
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: things where you go, if I could just do this
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: one thing for the in public, I'm not for the public,
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: because really, I mean, let's be honest, you're doing a lot.
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: It's for yourself. You have an urge within yourself that
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: you have to do. But it's amazing to get not
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: just a validation, it's the buy in from people. So
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: just meeting all these people i'd like yourself that had
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: interacted with online who showed up for it, and they
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: seemed like almost like they knew me and they were
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: proud of me because they had interacted with me so
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: much over these months. But that was like this really
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: cool feeling, you know, to do able to do that.
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: But yeah, it's that whole night is like both I
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: have memories of it and it's also this blur. Well,
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: I just remember downloading somebody's I think it was The
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: Torches for a wrestling torch. Just for those of you
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: who listening to this who don't know wrestling, that is
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: one of the major publications going back to the Ladies
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: for Wrestling. They did both both men, Wade Killer and
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: Bruce Mitchell appeared in the film, and they did like
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: a two hour and fifteen minute they like a review
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: of the film and kind of a talk about history
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: and different things. And I dropped my friend Gene off
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: around I think two five in the morning and I
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: drove back to the Lehigh Valleys listening to that and
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: that for some reason, that memory of just being by
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: myself and being like satisfied that I completed something, it's
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: something that like it's that solitary thing that fixed with you,
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, John, I heard a story that
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: on the set of Quentin Tarantino's last film, he had
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: to get cheese steaks for for everybody. So don't feel bad.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'd like to have his career, I'll tell you that.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: So you know, Jenna. I always usually start off with
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: the same question for everybody, and that question is could
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: you just give us a little more about your background
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: and you know how you got started in the doing film.
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: Sure. I let's see, I was born in eighty one
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: and I ended up very quickly living in all In Town, Pennsylvania,
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: which for you wrestling fans who are off the history geeks,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: I grew up like three blocks from ag Hall, which
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: is where w w W which is now WWE used
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: to stay to television. In fact, my first wrestling show
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: ever was in I think nineteen ninety, like September of
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: ninety at aghol And the reason I'm going on about
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: this is because through an alleyway, which it was like
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: half a block away, there was an alleyway that kind
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: of ended right near my row home yard. Through that alleywhey,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: if you went directly from my yard through that path,
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: was a house that we nicknamed the Cariden Mansion. And
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: that's because when I was two, my mom took me
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: on a walk, and when you're two, like, you can't
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: go very far. So we went around the block and
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: there was a little boy playing in a plastic swimming
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: pool that was blue and then had alligators on it,
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: and I thought that was the coolest and I said, Mom,
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: I don't want to play with that kid. But I
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: was like early timid, so I probably hid behind her,
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: and luckily Joline Kevin's mom was outside and my mom
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: talked to her and I ended up meeting this gentleman,
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: Kevin Karenen when I was two, and that's in my
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: creative partner I'm kin and uh so it's we just
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: passed July. I met him in July to thirty four
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: and now thirty two years that we've been attached to
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: each other in one way or the other. So, yeah,
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: we got in here, but we were doing creative projects
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: when we were kids. We used to make movies with
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: with those over the shoulder VHS cameras. Yeah, yeah, Well
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: Kevin's dead ball. Kev's dad til he's like, I'm actually
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: sitting in their property right now. He's like the second
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: father to me that they they not only helped kind
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: of raise me, but they still they still kind of
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: take care of me even now and look out for
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: me when we do holidays. A lot of times I
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: go to their house at least spend two hours with them.
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: Pretty much every holiday, regardless of whether keV or his
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: sister Emila are in town. Our studio, like I said,
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: is on their property. And I don't mean to make
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: it like they're rich. By the way, when people hear
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: me say this, they always think that TV family has
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: a ton of money. They bought when we were six
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: they bought this dilapidated old like farmhouse property, like it
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: was just a mesh and there was like this building
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: that like in real people's friends would have been condemned.
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: It just wasn't like a public, public building. There was
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: a spring house because there used to be a natural
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: spring on the bottom. And I remember being told very
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: specifically you were not allowed to go in there because
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: if you opened the door at the top, there was
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: nothing there. But there was no four And I remember
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: being sixteen and keV took me out there, and I
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: didn't know. I hadn't really been spending time around his house,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: so I didn't know. And I remember, even at sixteen,
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: you know you're near adulthood. I remember saying them like
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: like like, you know, we're not supposed to be going here,
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: Like it was weird to me that he was taking
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: me there because he's not a mischievous guy, and he
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: opened the door and like his dad had completely referred
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: the ship.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: This day's like a dy handyman who like always had
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: a side project for a weekends and stuff, and he
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: completely changed it into this like cool like it reminds
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: me of like Lord of the Rings, like like the
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: kind of place that you like, the secret world you
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: fall into. And it was like the place where he'd
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: go to write children's stories. I'd smoke his pipe because
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: he used to smoke the pipe at the time. And
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: we took that shit over right away.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Dad.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: They spent in ours if we were sixteen. You know,
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: we're going on almost twenty years and I am sitting
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: in it right now, and I love this place. So
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: this is where we started making Kate to Tate VHS,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: VHS editing on VTRs, you know that stuff. Oh yeah,
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: you would do that. We made a comic book when
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: we were ninety four ish, nineteen ninety four ninety three.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: We were really into making comic books, and I checked
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: one of my uncles into getting us like a computer program,
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: which seemed amazing at the time. I'm sure now if
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: you looked at it, it would look like like MS
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: a first version of MS Paint, you know. So we
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: had a comic book. We used to make videos with
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: the whole family. They'd let us write it and kind
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: of direct it, and then they would just kind of
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: push us nudgets and directions, and then we started just
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: making like silly short films. And I convinced Chev to
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: do the barb Wire City project just because I had
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: a fascination with the UC Arena in wrestling in general.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: And now this poor guy who has never ever you know,
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: paid for a ticket for wrestling, and never I was
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: forced to watch it when he was a teenager. It
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: was far more about wrestling than the average, you know,
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: the rank and file wrestling fan who is at an
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: obsessive fan. So I guess I'm sorry for that. But
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: at the same time, it's fun because now I can
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: do wrestling jokes with him and he gets it so so.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: But basically, you know, I can imagine when you actually
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: sat down, you know, with Kevin and actually like put
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: on wrestling for the first time, I could imagine his
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: response probably would have been something like, what the hell
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: are we watching.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: He was always he was never kind of sending about it.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: He would put his foot down here and there. I
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: remember there was like a WCW pay per view in
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: the early nineties is one of the ones where they
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: were working with New Japan. Someone was like from the
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: Tokyo Dome and like anything that was from a foreign
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: culture was fascinating when the any kid, I just thought
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: foreign cultures were so interesting because they weren't my daily life.
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: And I remember I got him like watching stuff on
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: Saturday mornings when I'd sleep over and then we'd wake
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: up early, and like he wouldn't tell me like turn
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: that crap ofll or this or that, and he can
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: make comments about stuff. So like I was always trying
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: to manipulating him into being a fan flight a friend
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: because I didn't have a wrestling pread for years and
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: it was, you know, it was like especially by the
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: early nineties, like it was uncool again. It was like
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: you you were a loser if you watched it. And
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: I kept watching, So I did keep it quiet, Dave.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: I couldn't tell people, so Kevin oure knew, so I
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: was always trying to manipulate him into so I tried
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: to get him to like buy the tape review and
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: that's when he was just like, I'm not a fan
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: of this, and no, you'll sit in a room if
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: you watch it. I'll be nice to know. And then
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: slowly but surely I got him to do this project
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: and over the expanse of thirteen years off and on.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: You know, now I get a kick out of the
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: fact that like he's he's friendly with Mike Johnson, the
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: wrestling reporter, so like he'll uh Ken has this gimmick
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: where he texts me random things where he pretends his
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: blog is called The Outsider, and the gimmick is that
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: it's a person who doesn't really understand wrestling and isn't
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: a hand but reports on it. So anything that Mike
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: puts on his feed, he just like makes a joke
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: of it and packs it to me. So hopefully Mike
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: doesn't listen to it, or Kevin I'll be in trouble.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Well you know, you know, it's funny you mentioned that
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: there's that thing kfabnews dot com that I always The
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: first time I saw it, I was like, what the
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: hell is this? Have you seen that?
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: You know? Who showed that to me?
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Who?
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: Kevin? I see that's pretty much kind of where he
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: got the gimmick called though, like I believe his idea,
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: Like I'm sure it existed, but Kevin wouldn't know. He
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: didn't spend his free time usually, like I think one
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: of the people he said yes to on Facebook when
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: we he had a lot of people trying to Facebook
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: friend him during the film because I was everywhere and
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: I was saying his name everywhere because I did do
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: all the media he would. He did I think two
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: interviews and I think they were both with Mike Johnson
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: because we're friendly with Mike. Through making the film, he
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: became friendly with Mike and so Mike we kind of
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: pressed him into it and they were both like in
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: person because he would just stay alone it if it
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: was on the phone, but like Mike was there and
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: had his like at Adam, I'm like, can I do this?
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: But yeah, he was finally getting on the set of this. Yeah.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: I only know about it because I guess he saw
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: it because one of the fans he said yes to
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: on Facebook was posting stuff and he kind of went
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: down the rabbit hole one day and when we got
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: to the studio to work on something else like this,
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: is after Barblar City. He he showed this to me
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: and I was just like, is that you got that
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: idea or something? And he's like no, but it's the
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: same thing. I think I'm just going to steal their ideas,
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: like joking. But yes, I'm aware of it because because
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: he's the one who showed it to me. Oddly enough, Yeah, I.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Know who showed up to me was the Blue Minie.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: And I love Bryan, Yeah, I hear the rest man
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: in the world. And I'm sorry, like I always call
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: him Brian, and I'm not sure I know in wrestling
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: there's like, uh, it's it's weird because like it's Brian's
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: a personal friend of mine and I'm not going to
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: call him by by you know, no offense to him.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to call him by like a pretend
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: name because he's my friend. Like I've been to his house,
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean. We've gone on like road
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: trips together, you know, for conventions and stuff, like he's
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: the best man in the world.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I just have to say that you don't
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: call him like hey, mister meanie, Like like you know,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: you don't say hey, mister meanie, or should I call
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: you Blue, I E.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: Well, I don't. I don't remember my first I'm sure
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: my first conversation with him, like I would call him
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: whatever he wanted, and then at some point I just
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: had a conversation. I think he introduced himself as like Brian,
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: like I think I did somewhere in there, like post
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: interviewing him when he reached out to me when we
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: started the Kickstarter thing. We just had a conversation and
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: I'm called him by it. He never like said anything
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: about it. And finally, just because I'm me and I'm
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: super detail oriented and I want people to be comfortable
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: with everything I said to him, Like is that you know?
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: Is that okay? Like I just feel weird calling like
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: an actual friend of mine by this this name. But
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: if you think it's like disrespectful, because within your industry,
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like this thing where some
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: guys you might be really good friends or the guy
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: who is a heel in a company and if you're
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: if you're if he gets your contact to sit in
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: the front row, he kind of expects you to boo him.
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: You know. In fact, he wants you to really give
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: it to him because that's his job, you know, so
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: he'd be asking me to do something like that, I would,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: but you know, fortunately I became friends with the guy
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: who's like never going to be a heel in any
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: room he ever steps into, so I don't have to
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: worry about things like that.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. Just as a little side story. Uh,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: one time when I when I was helping King Kong
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: Bundy uh and uh, a friend of mine was training
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: under him at when he was in wrestling school, and
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: I would come and I'd help set up like the
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: chairs and stuff like that. And then then he was like, hey,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: he helps up the ring and I was like sure,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: you know, I'll help out. It was for free whatever.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: So finally they came to me one day and they said,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: we want you want to do an angle where uh
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: this this like this heel attacks a fan. So my
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: so this is where my friend was going to be
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: a fan next to me.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: So here's the thing. Okay, so we're sitting next to
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: each other, my friend and myself, and one of their
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: heels is coming out and he says that and he
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: cheats to win. Right. So my friend like, now now
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: he has all his friends of family there and he
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: didn't tell anybody about except for me. Now, I was
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: going to want in on this. So he gets up
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: and he yells, that's bullshit, you're a cheating motherfucker, because
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: he says blah blah blah. So he ended lped getting
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: into a brawl with this heel and I have turned
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: and his fiance and everything are looking at him like
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: what the fuck is going on here? And it was
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: just I couldn't stop fucking laughing, and they ended up,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: you know, scuffling in the ring. It's true, he broke
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: it up this and that, but uh, it was just
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: it was hilarious. I I don't know. I'm sorry that
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: story really have much to what we were talking about.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: But I thought, by the.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: Way, this is primarily a filmmaking podcast, right, yes, most
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: of your listenership have no idea what we're talking about
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: right now.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: They probably tuned out already. They probably heard me talk about,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: you know, wrestling by now they're like, oh, well, well
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: we'll come back next week, Dave.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: But but no, but this is I'm such a channel danger.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Well that's that's great. Those are circumstances. What are you
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: gonna do?
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: You know, they're gonna hear me talking about King Kong
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Bundy mean like, oh, well he did work Richard Pryor
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: at one point, so maybe Dave is a point yere
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: but you know this is this is film centric, you know.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: But I mean we're you know, we're talking about the
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: documentary and you know, uh, it just happens to be
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: about wrestling. So I just want to show that a story,
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: you know. Uh, personally, I think a lot of viewers
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: love this because I actually have requests to do more
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: things about documentaries. So uh.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a bag man.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back for a word from our sponsor
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I know people will we'll definitely be interested
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: in this. And you know, so I wanted to ask
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: you is, you know, as we talked about your documentary
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Barbari City, you know, how did you go about finally
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: starting to put this all together? You know, in those
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: initial stages, meaning like, you know, how did you get
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: started putting together? Like, Okay, I have a list of
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: people I want to talk to. Did you know how
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: did you start going about you know, reaching out to
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: these people.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: Okay, let's see here. I am not good with brevity,
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: so I'm going to try to condense this because it
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: is a thirteen year story. Let's wait, at least I
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: can sort of spin of tail at first, like I said,
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: I think I said this on the podcast and not
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: when we were talking beforehand. I had a list of
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: like four people like I wanted to write a book
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: about my like almost like a hunter s Tom and
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: ask like fan journal going to the arena and why
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: it was important to people, like it was a cultural thing.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: And I've always been fascinated with sociology. And I was
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: one of those people. When I was finally old enough
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: too and I got my license, I would go to
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: the In fact, the first two times I went to
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: the arena, like my aunt drunk me, there was like
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: two or three friends I just wanted to go to badly.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: I didn't get I was one of the people who
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: didn't get their license right away. I don't know, it's
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: weird now for me to like think back why. I
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: just think it was just I just probably figured I'm
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: my parents, They're not gonna like let me try a
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: par and I don't have money, so like why theother.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: So it wasn't until I was eighteen that I could
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: drive myself down and regardless we would just stand in
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: line outside and like, I know, it's a status thing
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: to sit ring side, and you don't have to show
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: up until five minutes before the show. And you know
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: this guy and like John Bailey, the straw hat guy,
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: takes tickets, so you go on the side door and
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: give him a hug and all that stuff. And that's
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: not wet and cool. And I'm sure if I had
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: that option back then, I would have taken it. I
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: eventually ended up taking an option actually, as I think
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: of it, but at the time I thought it was
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: really neat to get in a car at ten in
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: the morning, take the long way, so to speak, get
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: down there around you know, eleven thirty noon, and be
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: part of this kind of like carnival outside, especially in
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: the later days. By the time I started driving down
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: with friends in later ninety nine is when I actually
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: started driving down, the people were already lined up, like
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: I like we would show up. The one time I
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: think we got there by like eleven thirty, we were
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: nowhere near the first people in line outside of the arena.
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: We were probably the thirtieth people in line, frankly, and
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: I saw some crazy things in that line, you know,
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: I think maybe only one or two things. The very
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: final ECW Arena show, I actually stood by myself and
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: I had a camera and I shot footage, and I
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: think maybe a total of ten seconds made it into
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: the film proper when we released it. And one of
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: the scenes is actually like what I'm thinking of, which
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: is that like people in line set fire to a
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: bunch of like cardboard and discarded wood, because in that
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: there's kind of this mythology about that area. It's really
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: not a rough area. Like if you go a block
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: like it's it literally is under ninety five and it's
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: in kind of like this industrial kind of dead end,
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: which is kind of commercial, low rent commercial space and
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: industrial park ish stuff for a block or two. But
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: if you go to the other side of ninety five,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: those are old ethnic neighborhoods. And I spent a lot
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: of time in that area walking around shooting footage in
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: two thousand, two thousand and one, two thousand and six,
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: and then in the year before the film, he had
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: like carnivals in the summer. There's the kind of neighborhoods
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: that's still like get permits to close off roads and
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: like rank those moon bounces and like have vendors. Like
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: it's one of those neighborhoods where everybody kind of knows
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: everybody and they all know a guy who does something,
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: so you can get these kind of things, probably for free.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: And it's not rough, Like I wouldn't die. I have
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: a nephew, it's nine. I'd take came and walk around
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: that neighborhood, you know, But on show nights, I wouldn't
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: have taken I wouldn't have taken into Swanson and written
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: the street. I'll tell you that, you know, was a
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: memory I was thinking of, was these these like set
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: stuff on fire and then we're chanting stuff. And I
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: think partially that made me in the film. There was
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: another where some underage kid was drinking like a handle
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: of hard liquor all day and then he was out
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: of his head and like slumped down against the posts
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: and people were voyeuristically watching him, and then he threw
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: up on himself and just sat there and people were
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: chanting things, and it was both entertaining and bizarre, and
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: now that I'm older, kind of disgusting of people, but
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: still something that probably should be kind of documented. There's
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: a good side in the bedside all those things, and
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: I think we definitely kind of touched on that in
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: the film. If anything, my sadness is in not being
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: able to break it through to more to more non
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: wrestling chance, because there's such like you even joked about,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: like there are people who probably turned off the podcast
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: because they're like, oh, they're tryingly not wrestling, and this
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: guided a wrestling thing. You probably, Yeah, there's still this
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: meme that, like Dana White brought it up this week.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: You know, people who watch wrestling must not know it's
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: quote unquote fake, which is a horrible word for it.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: It's kind of a senses, I think, and I think
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: that's where the emotional major creation comes. I just don't
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: think fans articulate it well because they get emotional. But
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: it's this idea that you must be so dumb and
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: low rent. You you know, it's nineteen thirty and you've
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: been conned by the carnival that comes through during the summer,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: and that's not really it, you know. But unfortunately as
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: a bad name, so we weren't able accept on very
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: very small moral victories to break it through to people
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: who just were fascinated by sociological events and niche culture,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: which in my own opinion, misunderstood, and that's really what
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: the film was about. You know. I had some very
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: combative interviews, I think when I promoted this the second
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: time around. The first time around was kickstarter or raise money,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: and you had to go as a wrestling circuit is
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: where I kind of had to go, you know, so
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: you try to intellectualize and talk about whatever, but you
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: also have to be like, yeah, oh, your favorites will
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: be here and all this stuff, and you're not lying.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: It's just you're playing your audience. And I think by
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: the time it came out and I would read reviews,
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: we got a lot of positive reviews, but all the
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: knocks would be like, really to me, fanboyish, wrestling centric critiques,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: for which I think is a generous word considering what
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: these people expressed up. But that made me sad because
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: I realized that the film was being completely viewed or
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: ninety to ninety five percent being viewed through the prison
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: for wrestling and for wrestling releases, and I think there
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: was a massive difference between what we did and say,
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: what WWE you would put out and call a quote
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: unquote documentary or what you know, even like high spots
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: or are at video. You know, I get messages like
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: how come this is like this because our video did this,
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: And I'm thinking, like, no offense to Rob because obviously
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: the licensed footage from him, and like I have a
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: sign relationship with Rob Feinstein, who the owner and operator
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: of our video. But like that either rest he's the
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: guys who does wrestling, you know, and I don't. I
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: don't mean to say that directively, but in comparison, when
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: you're comparing like a documentary to like shoot interviews, that
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: was really my beef. You know, sorry, I'm jumping so
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: far ahead and like your questions, Yeah, that's something that
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: was like so so these interviews like became sort of
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: combative for me, Like it became kind of like this
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: intellectual battle to to make my point without being like
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: a condescending dick to people because I just I didn't
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: have any more patience for like one interview was like
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: the question wasn't I would get these questions that weren't
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: questions from these wrestling podcasts that were like the Dudley's
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: in in ECW. And now they've already seen my films,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: so they've seen this sort of take to task the
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: idea that Paul Hayman allowed to get out of control,
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: and you know, the Dudleys would just go out there
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: and bake fans and it would result sometimes and you know,
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: at the low level, it would result in like, yes,
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: a lot of heat, but a lot of it was
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: just creating an atmosphere that was kind of uncomfortable, unsafe
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: for anybody who wasn't like a male in their early
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: twenties who wanted to get drunk and like get crazy
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: and then it's worst. It was like physical violence, you know.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: But the question will be like Dudley's NCW was pretty crazy,
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: right where do you think it was crazier? Where Dudley's
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: crazier and sillier and like the Elks Lodge. And for
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: the whole premise of the question, it's not even like
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: a really good question. It's more like tell me how
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: awesome it was that you guys did this? And I
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: don't know that it was awesome, that's the thing, you know, Like,
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: I don't I think it was you know, not even
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: specifically the Dudley's, but the things that they were doing
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: I didn't think were necessarily good for them. I think
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: it built on the cold fishness it built on the mythology.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Will be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: But I don't think that it helped them. Obviously, it
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: didn't help them in the long run, you know. And
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: I don't think it would be done and well certainly
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: wouldn't be done today because of the standards of the
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: lakes people's use it. But also I don't think Paul
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: Hayman would do it even if those standards didn't exist.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: I think he would have realized and put the brakes on.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: One thing I do believe when Paul Hayman has done
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: interviews and you know, is for some reason Steve Ustin
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: like really liked our film and anybody will sort of
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: even passively related to BCW he asks about. And I
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: also drove off the road the one morning when I
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: downloaded the podcast to listen to him talk to Hayman
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: because to this day one of the most fascinating people
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: that I would ever research or would ever cover in
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: any way. I think that I'll be eighty and I'll
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: still he'll still be top three at worst off and
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: brought Barbara City to him and he said that he
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: had never seen it, which man may not be true,
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: but that's kind of irrelevant to me. What's more relevant
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: is that he said, you know, people always talk about
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: the hay and kool Aid and all this. He's like,
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: nobody drank the kool aid more than me, and you know,
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: we kept amping up things because part of the question,
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: to Austin's credit, was about like, you know, the violence,
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: the way we covered the violence, and if he thought,
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: looking back it was necessary to go over the top,
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: you know, did it hurt things in the long run.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: And his answer I thought was actually really honest for him,
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: not that he's a liar, but I think he knows
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: how to speak to an audience, you know what I mean.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: I think there's portions of truth and there's portions of
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: of manipulation in anything he says. But he did say, like,
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: you know, everybody blames me, but I was the one drinking,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: like it's my money. I was throwing all this money
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: at this thing. And I believe him, you know, I
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: believe and I've talked to a lot of people that
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: are you know, that have been close to him, are
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: still closer than you would have become very similar to
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: early on our ah had it existed here, you know,
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: it wouldn't have been a carbon copy of it, but
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: that's the way he saw the landscape going. And it
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: also would have had a much bigger nick commercial arts
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: clings to it. He saw that coming. I mean, I
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: still see that guy as a visionary. If I had
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: millions and millions of dollars and I wanted to do
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: something in the pro wrestling genre or you know, or
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: some version of that, I would be throwing money at
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: Paul him and to join me.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, when East W was in its death rows,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: I remember he was talking about bringing in guys like Spanky,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Brian who was Brian Kendrick, Guys like CM Punk he
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: actually had, yeah, Loki he had. He actually was talking
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: about these guys before anybody had a clue who the
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: hell these guys were. And this isn't just him saying this,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: because they all brought this up too, that they were like, hey,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: you know, Paul Hayman. One guy who I know Again,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry going to a little off topic here. One
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: guy who I always wondered why he was in the
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: c W was mad Man Pondo. But that's the whole
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: you know that I that's always something I'm always like
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't get why he because he was
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: wrestling in the nineties. Uh yeah, and you know a
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: couple of always wondering, you know, why he didn't go
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: to E C W so even just for a tryout match.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: But anyway, but you know, but you know with the
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: way that's like I said, change, you know, I I know.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: You know in Japan they have a league that is
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: similar to that. I think it's Pancrease. Uh No, it's
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: not Pancrease, is it. Uh well, it's because they do
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: because they do like K one fights, and they do
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: some of like mixed martial arts, and they also have
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: for wrestling bouts and I can't remember the name of
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: the the company right now the top of my head.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: Do you know what I know that those existed? Well,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Pat Pancreas was the first. Uh pure mm.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: A, yeah, that's yeah. As soon as I said I
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: know I was wrong, I'm wrong a lot on this podcast.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: By the way, John, just so you know that's okay,
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you my audience knows not to believe a
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: word I say about anything.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: Well, they basically there's there there were several promotions and
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: I don't even know that they really exist in the
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: form you're talking about now, but that there were a
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: bunch like Mma and for wrestling in Japan, even even
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: in the seventies before Nime like really truly existed. Like Antonio,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: you could always bring in people and then smarten them
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: up to quote unquote the business, like Muhamma Ali is
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: the most famous example, and he didn't actually want to
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: lose to Anocchi, which is why they ended up having
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: this horrible uh fight in Pinocchio in seventy six. But
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: like that whole mixed martial arts thing was a gimmick
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: that Pinocchi did because he had been to Brazil and
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: trained jiu jitsu. But his goal was to make it
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: so that pro wrestling was a fighting discipline, almost as
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: like work. Okay, I'm trying, I should speak for the
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: rest of the audience. He wanted to be part of storyline.
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: That is the simplest way to put it. Was the
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: idea that pro wrestling itself was a fighting discipline in
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: the way we think of karate or jiu jitsu or
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: something like that. And he would bring these guys in
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: and pay them a lot of money to lose to him.
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: These authentic people with him their discipline to further the
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: idea with his fan base that pro wrestling was a
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: better fighting art. And that's really how us he started anyway,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: who was like the boxer versus the wrestler or you
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: know this guy. You know this guy does this versus
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: tackle on no guy. So yeah, I mean that's always
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: been interestlined in Japan. You know, that's what Pride was.
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: People look at Pride, which is an MMA organization that
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: was huge in Japan, and they romanticize it. But like
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: if you go back, it's like a lot of pro
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: wrestling stuff or for wrestlers fighting NMA fights, some of
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: the finishes were like somewhat manipulated, you know. So yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: that's that's existence.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and as you know, just as a side note,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: you know, guys like Sakaraba, you know, his whole style
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: when he fought in Pride was Japanese professional wrestling. Like
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: when everyone had their you know, they would say like
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: their name, their weight age or weight and the style.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: His style was Japanese professional wrestling. And that's and that's
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: when he was the Gracie Hunter.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and there's a guy who comes from
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: u w FI. There were all these like splinter groups.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: They splintered off. Here's a little d kid stryf hit
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: you and your your listeners. In the eighties, there were
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: all these like groups of people who trained in the
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: New Japan Gojo who then would be lower card guys,
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: and then they'd split. The group of them would splinter off,
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: and they started like the u w S, and there
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: was a second UWS, and then there was the u
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: w FI, which is something Universal Wrestling blah blah blah International,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: and they were like early stages of warp shoots. Some
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: of the slights would kind of be like real fight
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: ish thing where they knew to finish, but they didn't
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: care how it got there, and some of it was
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: just a mimic. And the idea was like, we're realer
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: than pro wrestling, like those guys are phony, but we're
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: real kind of a thing. And that's where Saka Rabit
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: came from. And he would bounce in and out of
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: New Japan and then he decided to be a straight
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: up shoot fighter and you know, pride to them. I mean,
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: look at the first title existed, because I think there's
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: how do you stayed last week Tanaka or something. There's
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: a wrestler. Uh No Kio, I'm I'm butchering you now,
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: I'm there. There's somebody yelling at their iPod right now.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: There's a gentleman who was who was in the E
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: W s I and and it was their champion, and
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: then he had some big fights with when they were
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: falling apart. He had title matches with the Great Muda
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: at a Tokyo don't and then another one at least
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: one more with Hashimoto, who was another new japan star
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: in the nineties, and then his and then the first
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: Pride was him and he was essentially just a for
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: a wrestler who pretended to be a shooter, you know,
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: and he had he had rudimentary skills for the times
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: Turtle that he wasn't like you know, Sokaraba. And the
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: first Pride was him versus one of the Grazies who
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: trounced him by the way, and the big comeback with Sokaraba,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: you know, he was a Grazi owner. He was defending
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: the honor for wrestling. That would the quote unquote storyline
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: of the legitimate shoot promotion, you know, so they they
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: would blur lines too, even though they were they were
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: a Shoot promotion in the way that pro wrestling would
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: blur lines and work fights.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know who you're talking about. It's uh pronounced no,
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: you know, yeah, yeah, it's Takata, but it's the first
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: name is like Noboo Keys Takato. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Takata,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: you know. And uh, I know, yeah, I know exactly
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: what you mean. But uh but yeah, and you know,
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: that's when you know, all those promotions started, and I remember,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: you know a lot of guys just sorted coming up
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: at it, you know, through the ranks of Pride too,
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: and you know, uh, that's we really to me, that
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: was the last time where you really saw somebody like
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: the fighters who really knew what they were doing. And
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: when I here's what I mean by that. They they
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: all had one style, meaning like soccer rob had you
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: have professional wrestling. Mirco crow Cop was a kickboxer, you know,
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Igorovov Chansion, you know, he just did heavy boxing stuff
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: like that. Uh, they didn't you didn't see like the
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: UFC now everyone sort of high has a hybrid style
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: where everyone does. You know, day one is Brazilian jiu jitsu,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: the next day is so muay Thai. You sort of
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: get a jack of all trades and a master of
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: nothing straining like that while in Pride. I mean you
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: really could just tell just by the way the guy
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: worked that, uh, the way the guy fought, the way
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: he moved, you know, whether he was like a gracie
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: guy or if he was a stand up fighter. I mean,
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: it's just I really wish you would go back to that.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our spon
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: answer and now back to the show.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: In a lot of ways, and you're watching some of
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: the Japanese fights now, uh, there it still is that
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: way because there's dream right now.
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: And there's a guy that I, you know, absolutely love
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: to watch, and that is of course I wonder I
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: just blanked out on his name. That is, I forgot
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: his name, but I post I will post it in
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: the show notes. I promise I lest I can remember
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: it quickly, but I don't think I can so. But
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: you know, back to you know your You're you know
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: everything with you know you and in Barboar City. You know,
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: this documentary was about the subculture of of v c
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: W and and all the crazy things and professional wrestling,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: and people call it fake, but you know, their injuries
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: are all real, and you know, you've got guys being paralyzed,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: You've got some people, you know, bleeding, and then they
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: requires you know, real stitches.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: It's just an irrelevant argue to me because it's it's like,
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: it's like if I really liked the show Sopranos and
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: you kept telling me, and I would get like really
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: into the storyline and we were having a discussion and
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: you're like, you know, you know, it's fake job. You know,
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: they're not really mobsters, they're like fake. I'd be like, yeah,
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: I know, the actors. I'm really into the show, the presentation,
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: it's the way it's world building. They built it built
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: a world correctly. The narrative is good, and like that,
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, you're doing a good job. You're giving the
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: answer that a lot of like intelligent people give. But
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: I even think that is almost too much of humoring
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: these people who say these kinds of things, because what
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: they're inferring is that you're what they would call in
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: wrestling mark, which is kind of an offensive term for
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: wrestling fans. It's like the dal heard in the weird Wads.
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: Certainly not to that degree, but it's derivative is from
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: the carnivals where and I've heard different stories about like
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: like like kind of the mythologizing of the term. I
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: think Dutch Mantel in the late nineties used to do
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: a blog I read where he said he had always
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: been told that when a carnival would come into town,
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: they'd have a guy who went around and acted as
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: though he was like poor and homeless and needed food,
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: and it's you know, somebody was nice enough to give
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: him food. He would mark with like chalk or something.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: He's marking a very subtle X in front of the
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: be to the house or the front walk. And what
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: that meant was not that they were a mark, but
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: that's what the term became, but it meant these people
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: are willing that they'll kind of fall for your story
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: kind of a thing, so you can go house to
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: house and get food or something like that. You know,
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: there was some sort of like manipulation there with him
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: that I'm kind of forgetting about. But that's one of
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: the old lives tales that it's probably not true, but
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: it is a great story. The point being is that
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: mark is this negative term meaning that you're a fool.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: That is where it came from when you're when you
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: when wrestling people call and it's not nearly as prevalent
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: because it's completely different. It's an entertainment industry now, but
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: even even in the late nineties and acw l TW
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: is like the last territory you know, because it wrestling
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: needs to be in a territory system, and it wasn't
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: a national thing, and there was some old school things,
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: as they say, interrestling to it, and like calling somebody
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: a mark is really like saying that they're a dumb
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: person who believes that you're you know that you're ball
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: to Mahony and you hit people with chairs in your
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: daily life and you're not John Reckner and you don't
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: have like a day chop or something, you know, or
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: a cad or a wife. You know, there's a logical
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: sea monster who only comes out every third Saturday to
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: the CW Arena and tries to kill somebody for real.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: And I believe you that kind of.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Thing you're telling me, Balsahony does not actually walk around
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: blong fired any people with chairs.
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: Well now, all moaning might, but but it's another story entirely.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like the one guy who I actually could seriously
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: see living his gimmick twenty four to seven is new Jack.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: I think there's some validity to that. In a sense.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: He's crazy, but he's crazy like a fox. I was
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: very impressed by him. He did his interview with me.
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: Now I've told this story before, but you have a
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: very different audience, and it's been at least two years.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: I was very nervous about interviewing Jack, And originally we
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: were going to get him when we shot all the
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: footage at the Extreme Reunion, which was in a reunion
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: of a lot of the ECW guys, and they were
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: going to do a show. What was it at the
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: point that they did the show, It was like thirteen
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: years or twelve years after it had shut down, something
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: like that, and we had a room at the hotel
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: that they were all staying and we were grabbing people
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: into it interviews in our motel room across the hall.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: We kept hearing this person from yelling and he was funny.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: Like Rob Finstein, who I met and mentioned before, does
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: this thing called shoot interviews, which is kind of a
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: dying thing because of this podcast, because of what we're
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: doing now. Back in the late nineties, he didn't create it,
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: but he was one of the people who figured out
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: how to monetize it, and it was before referring was
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: very very open as far as the gentleman wrestling talking
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: as themselves the person and talking about their experiences. He
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: would film that and he would put it out on
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: PHF taps and so he was actually doing one across
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: the hall and the person yelling and carrying on was
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: Jerome dung Aka knew Jack, and we put in a
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: call to somebody working with us who putting a call
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: to Jack to get him across the hall to sit
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: with us for thirty minutes. And he wanted to know
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: how much we paid, and now we didn't pay for
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: a single interview, so at that time he didn't want
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: to do it. And then through some connections and I maginations,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: we ended up sitting down with him at one of
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: these Extreme whatever that promotion became. They changed their name
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: Extreme Rising that with it, and he did the interview
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: with me was a machete on his lap and it
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: was very I could Kevin did not feel terribly comfortable
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: while shooting this, and I part of the gifts of
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: Jerome Young is that he's very charming, but he never
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: wants you to fully feel comfortable. That's part of the
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: control and the power of what he wants out of
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: those situations. And so I pretty early on said, I
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: pointed to the machete on his lap and said, so
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: is that for me? I forget exactly what I said.
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: I'm nervous. I'm sure when I said it, and hopefully
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: I pulled it off well enough, basically like, hey, is
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: that for me? It is? This goes bad? And he
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: just gave me the crazy eyes and then smiled, and
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: I actually put me at ease because it was one
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: of those things where I was like, he knows what
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: he's doing, you know what I mean, He's not he's
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: not here to mess with civilians, so to speak. Keen quotes,
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: and we had the best interview, and in fact, like
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: I think ime a DVD, we actually put an extra
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: like eight four it's not even even fourteen minutes of
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: like outtakes of stuff he talked about so much stuff
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: that had nothing to do with our narrative but was
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: so entertaining, and we put it on there. He is
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: by far the person that non wrestling fans come to
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: me and say I found him so funny, so entertaining,
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: so charming, and all these things are true, and then
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: I would say we finished. He signed the release with
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: no trouble, and he made a joke going like, you
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: were nervous until I signed this, you know, making it
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: you know officially we could use it. And we shook hands,
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: we chatted, we were packing up, and then he literally
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: assault did a fellow wrestler in front of us, and
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: it scared the shit out of me. And it was
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: because you just see that visceral, real violence in front
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: of you. It's it's different, you know. I think at
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: times we become desensitized, especially when we see it through
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: a TV and things like that. You know, violence is
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: an interesting thing to me because, like, I love MMA.
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: I used to work briefly for about a year year
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: and a half, I worked, you know, part time for
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: an MMA website O seven, and we used to go,
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: we got press passes and I would be media at
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: rainside and do live blogging and stuff like that. And
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: it's kind of that same feeling. Watch MMA on TV
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: and guys get knocked out and they're like, oh wow,
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: that was great, and he's there live like you know,
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: feet or media row. Generally these things is like ten
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: to fifteen feet away. It sits right there at cage side,
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: and you get like these like light heavyweights heavyweights in
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: the ring and they hit each other. You feel the
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: vibrations as them. They're that kick like out fifteen feet away.
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: A new cringe is very visceral and real, and in
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: that moment you go like, oh, wow, that hurts. That
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: doesn't just hurt. That could kill somebody. It's done wrong,
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: you know, like that it's something different, And that's kind
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: of what I felt with Jack, Like that's he's crazy,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: like a fox, is the best way to put it.
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: He knows exactly what he's doing at all times, and
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: the trick is to chart you but also make you
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: slink if this guy might do something.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so why did he assault it on the wrestler.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: That's the whole story, you know what, I don't even
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: know that I can tell it. I'll give you like
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: the cheap version because the truth is that it was
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: very detailed and I used to be able to tell it.
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: But this happened like three years ago and I don't
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: remember exactly there was a problem. Okay, so the other
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: this isn't like non it's not common knowledge, but it's
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: not like I'm not telling secret.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: And now back to the.
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: Show out of school. There has been a problem between
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: you Jack and Ball from Pony, who we had mentioned
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: before at the first reunion show, and this was the
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: second one now in like Junie, I think, and they
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: had gone back and forth and there was all this stuff,
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: and like in fact, when I got to the building,
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: I ran into somebody who's like, are you interviewing Jack today?
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: And I said yeah, and they said, oh, you better
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: watch out. He has a generally no yeah it was
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: he said he's going to kill Balls, and I kind
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: of smirked and stead of like, oh yeah. But see,
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: I think I really think that Jack was working. And
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: again I have to explain this for people who't understand.
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: I think this is the weird thing about wrestling. Part
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: of Jack's income over the last decade because he pretty
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: much can't get a job with the wrestling in his
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: street shrinking, his style going out of vogue and him
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: this kind of pede and nutty guy. It's hard for
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: him to get work with in wrestling, and part of
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: his income was derived from doing shoot interviews. And he's
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: smart like I said, so Jack knows to do a
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: shoot interview and have people buy it, and therefore make
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: yourself a commodity that can demand you know, two grand
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: or four grand or whatever you were getting paid for
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: just sitting down and telling stories for three hours on
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: one day. You've got to have stories. So if you
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: do a lot of shooting interviews, you run out of
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: stories and people don't want to buy it anymore. And
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: I think that Jack likes creating hysteria so that he
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: would be more marketable. That's part of that whole Carney
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: thing that that wrestler persona, and I really leave that Jack.
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: I had a conversation with him earlier in that week
• 52:07
  Speaker 5: where it seemed we were we met in person because
• 52:12
  Speaker 5: he was in town in Philly and it was for
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: a bit.
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: We both had to be somewhere for different reasons, and
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: we ended up being around each other for about two
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: hours and talking for about almost one of them. I
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: would say I did most of my talking with him,
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: and my impression is that he knew that he didn't
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: really have a problem with John Reckner the person or
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: Balls Mahoney the character in real life, but he was
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: creating one and if he pushed hard enough, Balls would
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: say something that would lead to their being more kind
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: of hysteria around it. This is how goofy wrestler is.
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: I think that he was creating a situation like investling Collins.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: They would call it me, uh, working angle, but in
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: real life he was kind of creating this storyline in
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: real life and not. And I don't think Baldsmhony knew
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: that he was part of a fake story, you know
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: what I mean. So apparently, and I don't even think
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: that this was true. But I was told, well, you know,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: Balls is Balis Mahoney is in the building already. I said, oh, okay,
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: so this is really going to be a thing. He's like,
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: oh yeah. Ball showed me he's got like a little
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: gun or something in his bag. And I'm like, so
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: I was on edge, you know what I mean. And
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: uh and then he walked up to him and Balls
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: might have said like two words like I said, like,
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: Balls tried to talk to him, and this wasn't listen.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: Other than myself and Kennedy, there was nobody in this
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: room that was a fan or something. You know. It's
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: this is like Stevie Richards was in the room, John Finnigan.
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: It was a people I was friendly with. Actually, you
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: know John Fennigan's there. It was an old referee for
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: easy W and he's worked a lot of other places.
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: He wasn't trying to fool fans to make money in
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: that way in that room, but he was for real, Like,
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: it's so weird the psychology of these especially I don't
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: feel like the newer wrestlers that that's the thing. They
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: see it as entertainment. They all grew up on WWE
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: and they want to be good corporate citizens and apply
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: their trade for the most part, or do it for
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: the art, you know what I mean. The journeyman who
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: who will get a lot of buzz on the internet,
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: they do it kind of for their art and because
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: they love it. And in some cases it is because
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: they don't want to grow up. Because you get to
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: be his angel of the Baldi's there for me from
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: later to ACW said to me, He's like, it's like
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: you're always in high school and every weekends like a
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: high school party. You know, you never have to leave.
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: I think that's all these factors doing me this kind
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: of right. And then after a while, you don't know
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: what else to do this is it's not a transferable skill.
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: Pretending artfully to beat somebody up isn't something that you
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: can go across the street and say, hey, I would
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: like to sell cars for you, or you know, I
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: would like to fit in cubicle and do tech support
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: for your tech company. So in this case, Jack created
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: something and I guess Balls kind of sell for it,
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: and that's all he needed. And he just walked up
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: to him and punched him in the face a million times.
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: And to Balls noone's credit, he never tried to strike Jack,
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: which is you know, from somebody hitching in the face,
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: you know, it's he just besetted himself and covering up
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: and kept trying to talk sense to him, you know
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: what I mean. And I will admit that I'm the
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: person who finally said, you know, this is going on
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: way too long, and I ran and got one of
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: the promoters and I got out of security and they
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: ran in and clapped them.
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: Well, that is a hell of a story. I could definitely,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: you know, I remember seeing something about that a couple
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: of years ago. Were Balls and knew Jack had a
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: problem with one another.
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: Postscripted by the way, they did do a shoot interview
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: with Rob Seinstein, Yes, afterwards, and I've never seen the
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: whole thing, but from what I saw, by that point,
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: everybody was included in wink wink, I mean Rob did this.
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I haven't talked to Robin quite a while,
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: but Rob sworded me even after it was shot. Oh
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: it was retail and we got an off duty police officer,
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: and I was kind of shocked because he either he
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: was trying to quote unquote work me as they say
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: in wrestling, which is like, uh, do the whole fake thing,
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: do the live thing, or or he just really believed
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: it was real and he pissed away money on an
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: them Discover cap to do security for them. You know,
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: I by that point, I don't think that I think
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: everybody knew what was going on, sort of saying but they.
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: Made their money, yeah, and uh, you know that whole thing.
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: They know. This whole story kind of reminds me of,
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: you know, some of the obstacles that you'll face. We're
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: making a movie, but these are some of the obstacles
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: you face, you know, making this documentary. As you thought
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: that some of your your the people you're interviewing, were
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: going yourself some of your subjects. You know, we're going
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: to assault you at any time, particularly new Jack.
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: Yes or lie to me. That was another thing. There's
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: a lot of We had so many theoretical slash I.
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: I hate to use this word because it's it's used
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: in a dirty way, which kind of sucks. Intellectual U
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: debates and uh, what would what would you call it?
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: We would watch footage and there'd be three people saying
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: three different things and we would have to talk about
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: And it's also dealing, especially you're dealing with something where
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: people within that industry they interchange truth and the real
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: world with what they call working, which is they have
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: their own term for lying. It's go working. It's okay
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: if you flat out lives somebody, even like your wife
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: or your best friend, if you're working now, and if
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: it was lying, that's horrible, you know, But if you
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: work somebody, that's theay. So we would have these debates
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: where you'd sit at the editing bay, but to almost
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: finally like kind of like shy and look at each
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: other and he has some return and saying like do
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: we know that so and so thinks there whether he
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: believes this or do we know this? To be true,
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: because now I'm going to go to wrestling guy, so
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: I have to talk about the backstory of these things.
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: And like what I've learned through research and a lot
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: of this game was knowing all the stuff. You know,
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: I did a lot when we when we decided to
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: finally do this and finish it, I spent two months
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: diving back into every piece and notes and then every
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: every like I mentioned the newsletters before, I read every
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: newsletter saying about ECW at that time, I would call
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: journalists and I'd have off the record chats about sayings.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: And I gets murky too, because the journalists on buddies
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: and they have different masters they're serving within, like any
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: reporter has sources in that industry that they are trying
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: to protect and that might be personal friends, and they
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: all have different perceptions about sayings, and so it can
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: be a mess. It's untangled, you know, I like, you don't
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: have to worry about There are a lot of times
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: when I interviewed somebody and they'd say something and I'd
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: either my first you know, cynical thought was as well,
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: they're lying to me, well this is great, and then
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: you know I'd lost the tape again. And I think,
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: you know, I'd put all the pieces together, and you know,
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: they probably think what days they're saying it's true now,
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: but I think of it, it's not. I know, it's
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: not that they don't know, you know what I mean. Like,
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: look in the movie bal in the Hoon, he thought
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: that ECW is being restructured. You know, I was. I
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: was barely twenty when I did that interview with him,
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: and I had the legal documentation of the filing of
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: chapter eleven.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: And you can see it in the film. We're talking
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: about it and he's like, oh, hey, you chapter elen restructuring. Yeah,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: there's a lot that you don't know that I can't say.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: And what are you supposed to say to that guy, like,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: you know, no offense. But I'm pretty cont you know,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: even being twenty, I was relatively well connected at the time.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: Obviously I'm doing this project, you know, so I knew
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: what the score was on that. But obviously his head
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: had been filled by you know, not only wanting to
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: believe these things, because who wants to lose what they
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: consider their dream job? But he also probably had people
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: telling him just hold on, just hold on. You know,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: I got that a lot from people, even well, you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: twelve years after the fact, when interviewing people, you know,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: I have a whole role of people saying they just
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: wanted to be talking not only about wanting to believe,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: but talking about their emotions, either if they went to
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: the last show and know of nowhere that they that
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: they did, or several months later, when Paul Hayman, the
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: owner of the CW, walked on to w w e's
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: live broadcast to do every Monday, which is wrong. That's
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: a big topic with people, you know.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know again, you know, for for all
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: the listeners out there, you know what John is talking
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: about is you know, for anyone making a documentary, you know,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: he had to worry about, you know, not the obstacles
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: of you know, someone's gonna sult him, but also you know,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: people would actually lie. And you know, I have had
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: other people who've done documentaries about different subjects, and you
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: know that's some of the things that they have to
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: worry about too, is mainly that. And Gladys brought up John,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: is are people telling the truth? Because this is you know,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: sometimes it's basically like the truth according to them, if
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, there's an old saying and uh,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: I forget who said it, but you know there's uh,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: there's three versions of the truth. There's your version, my version,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: and the truth or what really happened. And I mean,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: you know, and you know you took you know, you
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: just said, you know you took over what twelve thirteen
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: years to get all this documentary footage and put it
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: all together and actually make it. I mean, so you
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: you were in this little long haul to make this documentary.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I mean, And I'm always quick to state
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: just because I'm like an obsessively factual person and I
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: don't like, I don't really like the mythologize any what
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: I do at all, you know what I mean? Because
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: I feel that flying and that Tony and I always
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: think like, well, if you go with this year, you
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: get to get trapped in a high one day. You know,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: we weren't working every day for thirteen years. We were
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: working a lot in two thousand, a ton in two
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: thousand and one, a little bit in two thousand and two.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: Then it sat on the shelf and then I think,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: oh five, we worked for like half a year on
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: it and sat on the shelf, and like during this period,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: there would still be times where, like you know, somebody
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: would call me and go, he's pulling him an email.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: Do you want to talk to him blah blah blah
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: blah blah, or here do you want to talk to sell?
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: And sell and this and that, And then I think
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: once we made the decision in late January early February
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: of twenty twelve, at that point it became an every day,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: twelve hours a day thing until not just the premieter,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: like I'd say, until probably July July of that year,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: every day, because that's because the thing that you know,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: there's so many things to worry about. Like you talk
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: about documentary, he's like another thing you stress about his releases. Well,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: this person said release. Oh, this person walked in. I
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: had one shot during the Balls and I see the
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: same people keep coming up. It's so goofy you think
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: this film was like so super Bowls Maloney's entry. During
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: my initial interview with Balls Mahoney in Virginia in two
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: thousand and one, a gentleman named Rob Van dam Well
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: that's his wrestler name, walked in purposely, in fact, walk
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: into the shot to say hi to Ball and to
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: say some stuff to the camera, and then you know,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: follow that up by like, if you want to use this,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: you need her relief. He need a talk to my agent.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: He had no idea. Had I already spoken in the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: age of the month before to try to get him,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: because the time he was a hot commodity. I think
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: he ended up in the ww's wee within you know
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: by the summertime, and yeah, ins agent wanted like two
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: grand to sit down and talk to him. He just
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: thought it was this dude, impossible for these people to
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: wrap their head around the idea that anybody outside of
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: the wrestling world would want to to talk to these people.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: And in the wrestling world you get paid for it
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: because they're shooting reviews. Like now that's broken down again,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: but especially at that time, and it didn't help that
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: I had been a wrestling fan and that was that
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: was another pitfall too. How much do I tell these
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: people in pre interview stock Not only would I make
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: the call and we confirm everything, but I like to
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: talk to my subjects because I'm kind of a belief that,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: like I'm in charge of the room like Kevin would
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: Tom and he would do all the tack and he
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: would film it, and then I would allow him the
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: co creative process. You know, whatever is on my end,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: he has feedback on whatever is on his, and I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: have some saying. So during the interview, I would I
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: would he would just interrupt here and there if he
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: thought I missed something, or if I would turn in
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: and say do you have anything? At this point I
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: think he may or may not ask. But in the room,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: before you even turn the camazon, these people are picking
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: your brain and trying to see what your quote unquote
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 4: angle is because they come from a world where everybody
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: has an angle on screen and off. So then I
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: learned very quickly to minimize the fact that I was
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: a fan, because they view fans as the lowest common denominator,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, kind of the way people
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: argue the WWE promotes to their fans. They're thinking of
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: the dumbest yokel who doesn't understand anything and needs complete
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: expository dialogue and very simplistic angles with no kind of
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: like real shades of gray. That's kind of how I
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: felt a lot of wrestlers viewed fans, and it was
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: my job to control my perception. I felt to get
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: the interviews and to continue dialogues and get people to
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: send and releases. And I'm not saying why to people,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: but I just mean by the time we came back
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: to when I was a lot older and I knew
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: how to like present myself where it is, I'm I
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: think I did an okay job when I was like
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: eighteen nineteen, twenty twenty one years old, but I would
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: get very nervous and I didn't always know how to
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: answer a lot of questions about things, you know, And
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: by that time I knew that we didn't come back
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: to it because I was a wrestling fan, and I
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: always thought that's something that I think. There was a
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: big push in my interviews too, was like, without asking me,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: they I was being presented on radio interviews and podcasts
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: as like a super fan, and they thought that helped
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: because in their mind it was awesome that a fan
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: was doing this and this was some kind of love
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: letter to youw And that's not what it was at all.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: My job is a filmmaker, was to document the truth,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: which was hard to get at. Some people would say, well,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: what is this is this just like an attack piece,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: or is this like they basically want to know they're
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: the paradigms they kind of set up, you know. Was
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: it's either a something that's relatively promotional where they can lie,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 4: where they can just you know, make up their own reality,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: or be I must be trying to get it all
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: all things negative and bury them because they're martyr That
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: was part of the cw fanship with that. You were
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: you were part of a revolution, you were part of
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: something very like guttural and duy, and you were a family,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: and anybody against you there was a martyrdom about them,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: and that was you know, it was, Well, look at
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: the term revolution and what it really means, you know
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: what I mean. It's people kind of getting together almost
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: like a what do they call that, a flash mob
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: of sorts, and doing something about a regime. It's usually
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: political and involved countries and wars, and it's it's about
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: a regime that you think is wrong, you know what
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 4: I mean. There's all these ideological things that are attached
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: to it. But basically that's what I had to penetrate,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean. So it's like at least
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: the regular documentary if I was documenting I don't know,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: an interesting guy who I don't know, like made billions
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: off of popsicle sticks and then disappeared, and I had
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: the one interview with him at least, like when I'm
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: interviewing his family and everybody else, and I finally do
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: an interview with him, but so not gonna. I don't
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: think they're necessarily going to go into it thinking that
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: I am a bad guy, you know what I mean,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: or thinking that they need to feel me out, you
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: know what I mean. And everybody either like was questionable
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: of us or didn't want to do it at first,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: and all these things, And like the funny thing was
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: a lot of these people would be interviewed by me,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: and I don't know. I think it's almost be theo
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: cristical to say that they respected me. I think that's
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: the kid probably, But it's not like somebody said, I
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: really respect you. And even if they did, I'd be like, well,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: you're a wrestler, So I don't know if that's true,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: because you'll just say things. Maybe you only editing you
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: favorably because you just thought of something you said in
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 4: like the fortieth minute that you probably shouldn't have said,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: but I do. But the one thing that came out
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: of it was a lot of referrals, a lot of
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 4: are you know, jumping through to get everybody who was
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 4: one person liking us after the interview and saying that
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: we were fair and that we were thorough, and that
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: we were that we presented ourselves well and wanting the
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: project to succeed in therefore calling other people and saying, hey,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 4: I'm bouncing for us essentially say hey, these guys are
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 4: doing this documentary. And I think we were also very
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: lucky because when we started we were just young enough
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 4: and dumb enough to be likable.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show, and.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 4: Not a threat, and at the same time professional professional
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: enough to get in the room with these people. Yeah,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 4: which is was like perfect. We lucked out because if
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: they thought we were just super fancy'd had nothing to
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: do with us. But if they thought we were like
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: real Journali's well, the first thing you thought, especially when
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: we started, the first thing you thought was, oh, what
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: this is going to be? Is this real or fake?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: And just an attack piece about how disgusting it is?
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I know exactly what you're just saying,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: and you know that that is also something you know
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: that's important, is you know, how you matured as a
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: filmmaker and how you use an interviewer when you were
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: going from you know, obviously when you're interviewing them f
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: when you were twenty to a few years later. But
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: you know, you know a lot of what were saying
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: there is so important because when another you know, some
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: we alres trying to make a documentary, they always wonder
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: how likely is it I'll be able to get to
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: these people, because eventually, you know, you're going to have to,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: you know, talk to me. If you want to do
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: a documentary on the Beach Boys, for instance, at some
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: point you're going to have to sit down with them
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: and talk about them. Otherwise it's just sort of this
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: piece that sort of is about them now, you know
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: what I mean, not with them, but about them.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: I don't know then do they want they want a
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 4: piece of the action financially, do they want creative control?
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: There's all these things. Yeah, I mean we talked about
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: that even after after Barbara City is like, oh, what's
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: the next project, And when we took a little time
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: to decompress and run the business aspects of it, and
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: then you come up with ideas and they need right away.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: I always think in terms of like logistics in the filmmaker,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: because one are the other big things licensing, not just
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 4: thinking people. This kind of releases the licensing. So somebody
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: would say something an idea. Kevin and I had been
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: a stuio kicking around ideas, and I don't know, maybe
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: he'd say something and trying to think of maybe he
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 4: never said this, but I'm making this up. He'd say
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: that comic book writer that was really hot a decade ago, Bendish.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 4: I forget, I forget his fun in but I'm just
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: gonna use him. So right away, Well, if you're going
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 4: to do a documentary about Bendis, and you know under
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 4: the premise like well he changed the way comic books
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 4: are it, okay, Well, first you have to prove if
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: that's true or not. That's not really my genre. It's
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 4: just kind of something that preferly was. You know, I
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: had friends that would tell me about him. Well right away,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: it's like, okay, well what did he raised to where
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 4: did he grow to be? Well? He writes like half
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 4: of Marble's market books. Okay. Well, now that's a problem
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: because you can't do a good Vendish documentary unless you
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: get Marble on board, because you're going to need to
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: show the stuff she drew or that he wrote, right,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: and that's in that's a marble thing. Well, who wrots marble? Oh? Disney? Okay,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: now you're dealing with Disney? How you deal with Disney?
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: Know what I mean? Like, those are the kind of
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: things we'd have to talk about and think about it.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: And logistics, Oh well, where did he live? Okay? Well,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: who are the main players you'd also want to interview? Well,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: you do two months of research and you come back
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: and you go, like these ten people, where do they live? California, Florida, Arizona. Well, okay,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: now your cost just went up obscenely because you've got
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: to get them to say yes, and you have to
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: have a few days in all these things you need
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 4: dominoes to fall. That was a big thing, A huge
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: thing for us very early on was getting Todd Gordon.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: I remember I would love him on the phone all
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: the time, and when I lived in Philly, I or
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: do the University of the Arts with Kemp and his
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 4: jewelry shop, was maybe a mile away, and I would
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 4: walk there like once a week and bug him and
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: it's like this nineteen year old kid, and he'd say, well,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: who do you have? And I remember saying them like
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: the three interviews we had at the time, and like
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: my marquee dad was like John Bailey, the straw hat guy, who,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: for those of you who don't know, was a guy
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: who sat in the front row of every CW Arena
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: show from the beginning and he was just part of
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: He was emblematic of the fans, you know. And he said,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: only John, you seem like a really nice kid, and
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 4: I respect that, like you just you don't want to
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: give up, but you know, my time is really precious.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: And I've only ever done one other interview since I
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: left UCW and Todd, by the way, in case, I
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: picked Burry the lead on this is a sounder and
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: the original owner of u c W. And he basically
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: said to me, like, I don't know that I have
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: time to do a doctor an interview where the only
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: other guy participating is like the straw hat guy. And
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 4: thankfully I said okay. And I didn't know what to
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 4: say to that, and I called him back and I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 4: pledged to him. I pleaded with him rather and I said, Todd,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: you know, I get where you're coming from. I totally do.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: You're that worsen though when other people last whof you have,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: I'm going to say, Todd Gordon and then we go
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: from there, like, just give me a chance. And we
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 4: didn't have all of our stuff to othern't necessarily like
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: it was just so wide at that time, so my
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 4: questions for like five pages instead of like a one sheet.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: And he sat through two and a half hours of us,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: you know, doing a stupid interview, and he made calls
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: for us to his credit. You know, that's the kind
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 4: of stuff that that's the stuff you work about, getting
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: these people Domino's following dealing with Disney, you know, And
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 4: for us, a lot of it was did you know,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 4: did Paul talk to you to Paul Haym and talk
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: to you Well, no, well I don't know if I
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 4: talks with Paul didn't And those a lot of these
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: people came back and apologized to me once we get
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: it and said, I'm sorry. You know, I was worried
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 4: about you know, my where I was going to go
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: after you should w and you know I didn't want
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 4: to offend Paul and this and that in case, you
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: know jobs, because he was tied in with WWE, which
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: is the biggest, you know, pro wrestling company in the world,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: kind of monolithic now and and some of them even
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 4: as ed up doing interviews with us after the fact.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: Have you ever seen Escape Room tomorrow Land?
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 4: I never finished it. Yeah, that's the gorilla, the one,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: you know, very stylistic gorilla filmmaking in Disneyland, Yes, or
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 4: Disney was the disney Land and Disney World. It was
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 4: one of them. Yeah, they went in and they Yeah,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: that's fascinating, that whole story.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually saw that one day on a whim
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: and I was just blown away by for a couple
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: of reasons. First off, I got it, you know, it
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: was kind of David Lynchion. I understand what that was
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: going for the other part of it was I had
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: to look up to see what did Disney think of this? Uh,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: And there's a fascinating story behind it, but I you know,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: I will link to that in the show notes though everybody,
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: but there's just a lot of moving parts and Disney
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: did find out about it, and but you know, I
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: don't want to take I don't want to take away
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: from your story.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 4: John, Well, that's quite nice of you. That's battling land.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: I don't want to start to might you know'll escape
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: from tomorrow. But you know one thing I wanted to
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: ask you about. You know you ran a successful Kickstarter
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: for this fine by saying, so, you know what, what
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: sort of tips could you sort of give that you
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: that you could give to any any people out there?
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: But who are I think I'm making a documentary and
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: putting it up for crowdfunding.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 4: I have a big caveat to this. I may have
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 4: I might have more, but off the top of my head,
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 4: my biggest one is I ran the campaign from mid
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 4: August THI mid September of twenty twelve, So basically we're
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: coming up on the anniversary is three year anniversary of
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: running that campaign. I don't know what the perception uh
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 4: and for as bad if you don't want to call
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 4: it a Kickstarter is now. I know there was a
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 4: lot of pushback from some people the idea that you're
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 4: giving away free money to people, and I know that
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 4: some people on Kickstarter have famously burned people. The one
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 4: that the one that I saw that always sticks with me.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 4: And this was thankfully well after we had made film,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 4: or a year after. There was a guy who like, yes,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 4: he was writing like trade paperback novels, I think that
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: was it anyways, something printed and he collected all the
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: money he actually made them, but he was doing everything
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 4: by himself, and he was a bit of a temperamental
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: art arts he does. And then is the problem is
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 4: like you're dealing both the beauty and the horror of
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 4: it is you're dealing with artists most of the time
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 4: that some of this stuff is just pure commercialism, sure
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 4: on a low level, but like I mean, dealing with us,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: I'm not I know that this is another kind of
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 4: like intellectual. This is another dirty word artist. I never
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 4: wanted to be an artist when I was younger. I
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: wanted to be in the entertainment business, you know. That's
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 4: how I look at it. And what's funny is most people,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: when the teenagers, they want to be artsy and then
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 4: they kind of quote unquote sellout and they just want
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 4: to be they understand how business works, and they're willing
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: to make concessions to be in the industry of their choice.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 4: And they know reality of that, and it happened in
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 4: the opposite way for me because I wanted to be
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 4: an entertainer. It was funny, like you know, I would
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: joke with keV when we got older, like I was
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 4: more vocal about it, but he went along with it,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 4: and I think he admitted to me at one point
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: he didn't feel this way too. When we were like
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: you know, sixteen through like twenty four. We wanted to
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 4: be not literally rock stars like musicians. We wanted to
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: be rock stars who make films. We wanted to be
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: media presences, you know what I mean. That was part
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 4: of it. And we didn't want to just make crap, sure,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: but we wanted to be personality first and foremost, I think,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: and what changed in both of us, especially me, more
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 4: me than him, was that I really became more of
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: an artist. And I think people are embarrassed to say
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 4: things like that because they think it sounds pretentious. There's
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 4: this whole clichet around it, and a lot of times
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: I think people are afraid of it because.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 4: When you call yourself that, I think they think it
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 4: in first, like that you're successful, that your art is valid,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: and that your art is something really deep, you know,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: it's really it's just something that a normal person might
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 4: not understanding. And that's just not true. That's not fair.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: You don't have to have commercial successes to be artsy
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: or think like an artist, so to speak. And that's
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: something I slowly came to grips with. That's just kind
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 4: of how I am. You know, they tend to be
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: I'm not a money person. Geez, guys, I've given we
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 4: have Nobody shoots yourself in the foot or drops things
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 4: on principle more than getting Yarnet and I and we
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 4: have a real far less money to show for it.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 4: And in some cases it was when it came down
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 4: to it, it was about like, I don't want to
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: do something and look back in five years and be like, well,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: I did that for money, you know, because that's what
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 4: is that. That's a prostitute, you know what I mean,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 4: There's one thing like that. I like, Look, we all
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 4: have to work gay jobs a lot of the time,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 4: most of us do. That's when I have to be
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: a prostitute. You know, I don't want to do it
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 4: with something that I feel passionate about. So you know that. Yeah,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry you get off on the whole thing. So
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 4: my point is that artist, and thank you for sitting
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 4: through this study of day. I really do enjoy doing
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: these things and just talking to people, you know what
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 4: I mean, Like, I hope I don't come up with
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: somebody who's in love with their own voice, because I
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 4: just I love the back and forth and the sharing
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 4: and all this stuff. I'm talking about these experiences. Yeah,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: you would ask a buck kick Starter. You're dealing with
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: temperamental artists a lot of the time, and that can
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 4: be troubling. And the biggest thing. I always think of
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 4: this guy you're collecting all this money, He's doing everything
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 4: by himself and he got sick of and I've experienced
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: this too. Look, whenever you deal. I think that the
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: final tally for us was like four hundred and forty.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 4: Some people gave us money. Maybe it was four hundred
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 4: and eighty one. There was just below five hundred. There's
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 4: five hundred separate entities giving you money. You know, most
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: of the I'm a person of person and they believe
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 4: in him enough that they gave you money or at
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 4: least your product is interesting to them. But the percentage
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 4: of them are just going to be crazy people. And
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 4: I don't literally mean crazy people like you know, they
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: would be in a mental institution. I mean that they don't.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: They're just not the times. They have a lot of
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 4: social graces, and they're dealing with you through a computer anyway,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 4: you know, so they can say whatever. So I guess
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 4: this guy was I've dealt with it too, But I
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: guess this guy could not deal with people going where
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 4: is this? I paid for this, I'm going to sue
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 4: you or something some such nonsense, you know, and some
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 4: people will probably, you know, I think the pressure probably
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 4: got to the guy just I'm sure some people were
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 4: just like, hey, man, give you money six months ago.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 4: Where's the books?
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 4: And so he puts up a video on Kickstarter of
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 4: himself yelling basically the people who paid for this and
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 4: burned and then chose video of him burning the first
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 4: like three hundred or something. Crazy. He threw them all
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: on the five He threw the first run of it
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 4: in a fire pit and started burning them and then threatened,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: like a hostage situation, threatened to keep burning dressed if
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 4: he got any other messages, and said you'll get them
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 4: when you get them basically and stuff like that gave
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: like you know, artists on there like bad Breast. I
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 4: don't know that the Golden use has kind of been killed.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 4: I know that in wrestling. I remember. I remember being
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 4: interviewed actually by Mike Johnson backstage at a show about
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: thirty and a half months before the premiere, and we
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 4: were talking about Kickstarter on and I think the video
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 4: is still on YouTube. I'm much fatter, I won't watch
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 4: it anymore. But he he asked me about kickslater and
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: I said I worried that that people were going to
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 4: kill the Golden Goose And the question was specific to
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: wrestling documentaries because there was a whole rational event at
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: the time, and I learned enough it too. Even people
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: would come up to me and ask me for advice
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 4: and they tell me their idea, and I'm just thinking, like,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 4: you know, I don't know that I'm necessarily even a
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: filmmaker to this day, you know, in a true sense.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: But I have some know how, and certainly Kevin Garridon
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 4: does too. And we accomplished a goal and we had
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 4: something behind it that was more than Ain't this cool?
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: And I was talking to people who seem like really
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: nice kids who I could just tell him, like, this
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 4: is going to be a disaster and this is going
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: to hurt anything going forward for wrestling documentaries. And I
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 4: don't know that that completely bored out, but I do
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 4: think that the fad kind of died down somewhat. I
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 4: think the biggest thing is to personalize it, to get
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 4: people that you're not selling your film necessarily or whatever
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 4: your artist endeavor is. You're selling that in tandem with
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: yourself and hopefully you find something like I was smart
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 4: enough to know that I had to appeal to the wrestling, internet, wrestling,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 4: and news letter reading population. It was the only way
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 4: that I was going to get enough money to properly
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 4: fundish you know, all the licensing and all the other costs.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 4: Budgeting is really important. You know, Oh, I'm jumping around it.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 4: I launched again. Basically, when you give these interviews, you
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 4: have to talk about your real story and why you
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: care about this thing and why it's relevant, and you
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 4: have to convince people. And another thing is that this
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 4: is what we realized you're doing this is we should
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: have been pitching a pre order system. There's this idea
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 4: that you're getting pretty money to do something. Actually, we
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 4: screwed up our budget because the person who did our budget,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: who you know, isn't myself Workamp And then I don't
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 4: want to even say the person's name because we have
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 4: no relation to them anymore. But he was another person
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 4: who was helping to produce this, and it's kind of
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 4: a deal with the devil thing after a while, and
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 4: I knew that deep down, but I didn't want to
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 4: fully deal with it, you know, because I needed this
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 4: to get done. I didn't want to die knowing like
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 4: every few years people would say, hey, man, whatever happened
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 4: to that documentership, Yeah, I never did it, you know,
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: I never completed it. I couldn't. I couldn't bear it.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: So I had the opportunity and I had to be
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 4: talking me with But once I did, once you go
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 4: down that road, you know you're you're either all in
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 4: and you're not. And unfortunately we didn't have a proper
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 4: budget because not only is a pre order system like
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 4: it's basically like, hey, you give me money and to
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: complete the film and you'll get the film, but it's
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: also you got to give so many gifts that like
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: I think honestly, we probably spent like a third of
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: the budget on I mean that's not a completely factual figure,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 4: but a two percentage of the budget went all the
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 4: gifts we had to give people because first of all,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 4: even the film, even if you pledged just to at
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 4: the film, I had to plant the film myself, you
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like I had to send it
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 4: to disc makers and get it professionally done. There's a
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 4: there's cover er. I had to pay for that, you know,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 4: mass production, mailing it out myself, you know. So then
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 4: you gotta deal with like camps dot com or or
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 4: the post office every day posters. Posters cost money. WHOA.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 4: One of the things that made this possible was it
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 4: seems funny.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 4: I haven't spoken publicly about this because I just haven't
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 4: done this. The gentleman who co hosts Rick Flair's podcast,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 4: Conrad Thompson, he's really the person who made this possible
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, because I was we
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 4: were down. We had used up twenty of our like
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 4: thirty days on kicks charter, and we still had it
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 4: was going to come down to the wire. If you
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 4: did the math on it, it was like, if we
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 4: incrementally average this much every day which we have been
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 4: we may or may not have this that the eleventh hour,
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 4: and a gentleman named Conrad Thompson saw it on I
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 4: believe Dave Meltzer's website, who is the author and editor
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 4: of a Wrestling Observer newsletter and website, and he gave
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 4: us I think four grands. I think is a good
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 4: amount of money. But here's the thing, because that that
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 4: at that level, I then had to go get a
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 4: wrestler and fly to him and give him a private
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 4: screening the week before, and that's costly.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: You know what this forget?
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 4: For some reason, he really wanted Jane Douglas. Oh cool,
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 4: who's Troy Martin And it was really iron ansty he's
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 4: really neat. We flew down there, he had Conrad had
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 4: a beautiful home and real quick to wrap that up.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: Once Conrad did this, it became obvious to everybody they're
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 4: going to make it. And that's the funniest thing. People
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: you realized it in hindsight, people weren't giving you money,
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 4: not because they didn't care about the film, but because
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 4: they weren't. They were a lot of people still to
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 4: this day, think that you don't gate money, and then
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 4: you never get it back, which isn't true. I never
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 4: and I also never had the others. Miss Filmer, is
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 4: that I handle your money, and I don't know if
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 4: it's exactly the same. But at that time, Amazon Payment,
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 4: which was a subsidiary of Amazon dot Com, they did
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 4: all the financial work for kickstarters and they take that's
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 4: the other thing. They take a percentage. Kickstarter digs a percentage.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 4: Amazon takes a percentage, so off the top ten percent
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 4: go roughly get You don't get the money until you
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 4: don't see any money in your bank account until like
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 4: three weeks after this thing closes, if it't successful. But
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 4: because it was successful, because Conrad did that, rather it
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 4: exploded and we actually.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: Got we'll be right back after a word from our
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: sponsor and now back to the show.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 4: More money than we had asked for, and thank god
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 4: we did, because every penny got spent. Man, because nobody
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 4: did a budget on what it would call what it
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 4: would cost to get Shane Douglas on board for that.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 4: We were friendly with him, but he wasn't going to
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 4: take a weekend away from his family, his boys to
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 4: go to this place without you know, being flown there,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 4: being you know, being put up at least in a hotel,
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 4: you know, and then we had to fly there because
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 4: I had to be there too, you know. And it
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 4: was a great experience, you know, Shane actually spent the
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 4: entire afternoon answering every question in Conrad and kran Conbat
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 4: and his family had probably the greatest shoot interview ever
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: in that you're it's an interactive shooting interview with a
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 4: real human being, who's not who's not being filmed and
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 4: therefore not playing up things and uh. And then we
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 4: all watched the movie together with Chaine and myself commenting
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 4: to Conrad almost like a live director's type before the
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 4: film even did used people. So it is a really
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 4: great experience, but it was a closely experienced had to
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 4: rent the arena, which is a story within itself. At arena,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 4: we weren't didn't get that arena until two a month
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 4: and a half before the premiere. It was announced the
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 4: day we signed the deal. We did not think we
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 4: were getting that building up for the longest time, and
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 4: we were worried about where in Phila there was going
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 4: to be a career.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: Actually, well, I'm sure wearing Philly is gonna be a career.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 4: No, a premiere where we were going to debut our film.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 4: You know, so, I guess, be yourself, show your passion,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 4: answer every question, have an answer for everything. Hopefully you
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 4: pick a topic that has a fan base where there
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 4: is media to promote to those people. Because imagine if
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 4: how I picked. If I did the best documentary offer
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 4: on checkers, which sounds silly, but I've seen some documentaries
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 4: honestly where I didn't know anything about the subject, but
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 4: I took the chance, and I said, this is amazing
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 4: and it doesn't matter if you're a fan of this
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 4: or that. And that's kind of a pitch for my
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 4: own film, Blah Blare City. I mean, it's not really
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 4: about wrestling, it's about it's about culture. It's about the culture.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 4: It's a journey of people, and in this case, they
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 4: don't at the end of it. You know, Rocky doesn't win.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: You know, they don't win. That's the crazy thing about it,
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 4: and like where are they now? And how has this
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 4: affected their lives?
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I would sell all the things I just said,
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 4: plus budget correctly and realize that you were going to
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 4: have to pay, Realize ten percent is coming off the
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 4: top right away, and realize that you're gonna have to
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 4: pay for all these benefits that you're giving people so
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 4: that they will give you money. That's the crazy thing.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: You're have ever done some many pledges. You're close to
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 4: your goal and yet sort of further away if you
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: don't budge it properly because they pledge. And I've never
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 4: done the math on it because I'm afraid too, and
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 4: now it's over and I don't have to. But there
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 4: are certain pledges where I'm sure at the end of
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 4: the day it was kind of like, well, we're giving
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 4: all that money back and I don't actually even remember
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 4: how much it costs to fly down and see Conrad
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 4: and to bring Shane and all that stuff. We probably
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 4: gave so much money back to Conrad at the end
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 4: of the day, you know what I mean.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. I mean. One of the things I've
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: i've you know, learned about in crowd funding campaigns from
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 3: doing them too, is the perks is you know, the
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: perks can get you. And we've had you know, other
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: filmmakers on here like Don Fields who spoke a lot
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: about that at craft Fund, and gurus like Eli Rigalatto
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 3: who would always talk about that too. So I mean
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: that's good, you know now, John, because if you do
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: another one at some point, you know, you have that
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 3: now to build that into the price points so you
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: can break the breakdown list. So you know, if it's
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: one hundred dollar perk, okay, well we're getting sixty dollars back.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 3: That's sixty percent of the perk, and forty dollars goes
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 3: to the entire cost of making it, and you know,
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: stuff like you know, and I think that is invaluable
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: because I mean, everyone makes mistakes with their first crowdfunding campaign.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: You know, I certainly did, and I know all people
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: have as well. But you know, and that that is
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 3: an amazing perk, by the way, is having somebody actually
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: fly down to watch the documentary, because that's suddenly you know,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: if I had the extra money, that that would be
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: a perk that I would have looked at as well,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: because that sounds the absolutely phenomenal, especially being able to
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: get the wrestler. I don't know if I would have
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 3: Pickeduring Douglas, though I may have actually picked, for the
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 3: hell of it, the Blue Mini, uh, because I think
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: he'd be a.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 4: Fine I was pushing at because it would have been
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 4: so much easier, and he was a personal friend of mine.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 4: I pushed me because well, it's the one thing I
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: was scared to death of, Like what if they pick like,
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 4: you know, then I have to fly you check down there?
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 4: Like maybe I have to share a hotel room with
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 4: him for the cost. I don't know, you know, and
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 4: I will and I will, like you're young, but I
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 4: also who knows what's gonna happen, you know what I mean.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 4: It's kind of like having that crazy friend you take
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 4: to a bar in you're early to mid twenties and
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 4: he's like, oh, Jimmy is Jimmy's a great guy. He's
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 4: a little like he plays it fast and loose sometimes
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 4: when all and you know, every third time Jimmy's starting
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: a fight, he walks up a few wastes and he's like,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: hey man, that group of guys is giving me dirty look.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna jump one of them. You got in my back?
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 4: You know. I have been in that situation with people
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 4: and then like, oh my god, Jimmy's become a liability,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 4: Like I don't think we could call with Jimmy anymore.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 4: That's what I was afraid of with with doing this,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 4: So I was I had any conversation where I was like, Conrad,
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 4: don't you like the blue meaning? Isn't the blue meaning
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 4: the coolest? Talk about Jerry Lynn, you know who's really
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 4: cool and loves cats, Edie Richards loves cats. Let's all
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 4: hang out. But he picked Shane, and you know what,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 4: it worked out great. I had a great time, and
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 4: I am forever thankful to Conrad, who is a really
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 4: fun cool guy.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: You don't what to be funny. If he had picked
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 3: someone like the Sandman, that.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 4: Would have been in trouble. Yes, that would have been.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 3: I've actually been around the same one before in like
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 3: non wrestling, uh, you know, a non wrestling environment, and
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 3: he is the guy who was exactly the same.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 3: So a lot of smokes like a chimney is you know?
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 3: Uh that this was like two thousand and four I
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: met him again. Uh but actually I heard recently that
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 3: he's completely clean and sober.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 4: Now that's really good because I know he a few
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 4: years ago had some trouble and lost a lot of
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: very long time friends who ended up kind of cutting
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 4: him off. I mean, this is what I was told.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: I hearsay, but I have some very good sources, certain
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 4: people that are identifiable to him don't talk to him anymore,
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 4: or they didn't for her quite a period of time.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 4: So that's the first time hearing that. I think that's
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 4: really great. I didn't have the greatest experience with him
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 4: in two thousand and one, but I will say, by
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 4: the end of this whole thing, you know, I've heard
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 4: all the horrible things about him. I've seen him be
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 4: a really trashy guy and say a lot of horrible things.
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 4: But having said that, my lasting memory of him, so
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 4: he died tomorrow. The story that I would tell is
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 4: I was at you know, filming at one of the
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 4: Extreme Reunion Extreme Rising shows, and I went out back
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 4: coincidentally enough to smoke because I have a horrible nicotine habit,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 4: so the quip or don't start if you're listening to
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 4: it's been very hard to you know, going off and
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 4: on with that. So I went out to the car
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 4: to get away from the craziness of these shows and smoke,
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 4: and there was this old guy playing like softball or
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 4: like a whistleball with kids and in the part in
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 4: the adjacent parking lot, and I thought, well, that's weird
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 4: because we're kind of an industrial area but it's kind
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 4: of charming to me. And he just see he was
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 4: trying of like, hey, you go here and you do this,
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 4: and he's like, oh, don't worry about it, buddy, You'll
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 4: get the next one. And I'm listening to a voice
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 4: and I start hearing it, Patt Tyler, tell him back,
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 4: let it, let him back again, that voice, and I
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 4: realized that old man is that's hacked. It's Jim Fullington.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 4: And I just founded such a great judgetaposition. And I
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 4: also found it charming in the sense that like the
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 4: real human being. The one thing that I've never heard
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 4: anyone say is that he wasn't good with his kids.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 4: And I and I saw it there. You know, he
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 4: came in I think he I think he did it
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 4: for free that show. I think he did it as
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 4: a favorite of one of his old EACHW friends or
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 4: Shane or something. And he brought his kids and they
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: played with Wall. He did his one running everybody popped.
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 4: He drinks his beer, you know, Metallica plays and that
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 4: was his knight and he just did it to steel
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 4: friends and hang out and really he just well, you know,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: he just spent time with his kids and he introduced
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 4: his to his crazy old family from the nineties. You know,
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 4: that's something that you know I can say about him. Yeah,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 4: that is a positive.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I have a funny story for you too.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 3: He when I used to work at what was called
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: ev Games, which was I know, which was what was
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 3: GameStop before a GameStop became GameStop and EBE Games, so,
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: you know, and I was up in Broomall, Broomall, Pennsylvania,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 3: and we're in this you know, and it's kind of
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 3: like an upscale shopping center. We were in. Well, one
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 3: day in two thousand and one, incomes the Sandman and
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 3: he's got his kid with him. It was Tyler, and
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 3: he's talking about buying a PlayStation or a PlayStation two
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: at that point. And my manager had no clue who
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: this guy was. And I'm like, oh my god, it's
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 3: the sixth I was like, what maybe to two thousand
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 3: and one. So I'm thinking, I'm like sixteen seventeen, and
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god, it's the Sandman and I'm
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 3: trying to you know, and he's like, Yo, what's up, buddy, Yoo?
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 3: You got that VS. Two.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 4: Oh god, I hear'ds my voice exactly exactly, and.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 3: Uh and he and you know, I was like, yoh yeah, sure, buddying,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 3: so you know, and uh, he ended up leaving. I
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, the same. I just came
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 3: in here and we saw a PS two and uh,
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 3: my manager's like, who was that guy? So I ended
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 3: up bringing in some VHS tapes of of E c W.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 3: I showed him and he was laughing his ass off
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 3: at who he was, and he wanted to bring him
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: into the store to have a wrestling match with our
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 3: assistant manager, who was this obese guy who was just
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: the biggest curmudgeon. He had these like he had a
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: completely bald head. He had like these like bulbous moles.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 3: He looked at the cartoon car. He looked like a
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 3: real life Homer Simpson, if you can imagine that. So
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: he said to him, Hey, I'm gonna we'll bring the
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 3: salmon in and you guys have a wrestling match here
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 3: in the store. And he wouldn't like, he wouldn't tell
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 3: me it was a joke. He was trying to get
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 3: him to believe it was real. And I just remember
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 3: finally the assistant manager flipped out, was like, no, I'm
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 3: not going to wrestle the Sandman in the middle of
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 3: the store, and it was like it just kind of
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 3: hit me like that was one of the things I'd
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 3: never thought I would hear in my life, was somebody
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 3: refusing to wrestle the fad Man in the middle of
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: a retail store. Just one of the funny members. They
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 3: have a sad Man and.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 4: Real quick because we'd buried to believe again for the
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 4: people are who are saints and have stuck with us,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 4: there's a Sandman, the wrestling character real name Jim Fullington
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 4: also goes by Hack who was friends who was a
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 4: wrestler nearly nineties who carried around a ken Noo stick,
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 4: which is it was popular at the time because Michael
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 4: Fay got in trouble in Singapore. It was this kid.
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 4: He was this teenager who I forget what he did,
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 4: but they ended up he's guilty of a cry stray
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 4: painted those cars, okay, right, right right, and his punishment
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 4: was they would whack him down times with a quote
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 4: unquote Singapore cane. So the Samanimic which was originally that
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 4: he was a surfer, very miscastanic, he'd be he's maintained
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 4: beating the sand Man. But he was a guy who
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 4: would come out in like zoobap pants and then later
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 4: jeans once that's that when somebody told him that bad
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 4: was over, and he would come out with that and
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 4: a T shirt, drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette and
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 4: hitting people with this cane. This does not necessarily, that
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 4: does not necessarily sound like the rest thing you may
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 4: have grown up with, or even the rest when you
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 4: see today. It really worked in that environment. He became
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 4: a cold hero. A big thing with ECW, which you
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 4: could never do today, was the original music. They didn't
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 4: use generic music. They used hits that were identified that
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 4: you then identified with that person. And then you would
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 4: hear on a radio and they would be rock and
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 4: metal and they'd be hip hop and rap. In the
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 4: time when that was just now it's that's that's music.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 4: Now hip hop is just part of music. It is
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 4: the dominant form of music, and rocks share in music
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 4: flips day after day. But at that time it was
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 4: like a very forward thinking thing to attach hip hop
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 4: to some of the acts. And Hayman was Paul Hayman,
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 4: the creative guy behind UCW and eventually the owner he
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 4: gave hand Sandman Enter Sandman by Metallica, which is a
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 4: pretty big there's one of their biggest kids ever. And
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 4: I hear that song to this day and I think
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 4: of it. And he would come out. Half of the
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 4: fun of him was this five minute entrance where he
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 4: the music would build up and he'd come out and
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 4: he started coming out in the audience and he would
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 4: drink a beer and then smash it over his head
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 4: and he'd actually cut himself to bleed from the beer
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 4: again from smashing it. And he would go up to
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 4: people and I saw a million videos of this as
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 4: I was going through the collection for the footage that
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 4: we used the VCW. He'd walk up to a kid
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 4: and go are you eighteen? It's kind of like the
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 4: worst version of a bouncer carding somebody ever. You walk
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 4: up and go are you eighteen? And the kid go yeah,
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 4: and then you go cool, and he would just dump
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 4: a beer down the guy's throat from like a very
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 4: high angle and it would get all over the kid's
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 4: face and then he high five people to this interactive experience.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 4: And that's the Sam That's who we're that's the guy
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 4: who basically loves his gimmick that Dave and I just
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 4: talked about.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 3: My dad actually used to work in Wilmington and it
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 3: was were up the street from Hacks Bar and Grill,
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 3: and that is you know, I had friends who would
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 3: you know, because eventually wrestling shows started happening there. But
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: they said, you know, you could go in there and
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 3: there would be the same man just live in the
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: gimmick drinking stuff like that.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, you see the rock footage of our interview.
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 4: It took place in there, and he didn't seem to
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 4: understand that playing commercial music during our interview over the
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 4: loudspeaker of the bar would hinder the process, considering we
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 4: couldn't license this. Yeah, I'm sorry to continue, but yes
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 4: I know that bar because we went there and he
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 4: wanted to just do it at a random table in
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 4: his bar.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, when I was at the premiere of
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 3: Barbara City, I was laughing when someone actually said to
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 3: you during the Q and A. They said, oh, I
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 3: would just use a w F footage and told Vince
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: McMahon to go fuck himself. And I remember your reply was, well,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 3: maybe you have a very good entertainment lawyer who was
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 3: a very expensive you know who's on you know a
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: family or is on the paper. But you know that
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 3: would be a hell of a lot of money to
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 3: pay to even sit down with them to talk about
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 3: using video footage.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 4: Oh I had people steal the movie online when I
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 4: would write them and say, hey, I'm the director, like
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 4: this is a really small thing that I hope, you know,
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 4: to make money just to reinvest in us. I'm not
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 4: trying to get you in trouble reporting or anything like
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 4: could you just not And they would be like, oh man,
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 4: I'm just trying to spread it. You know, you know
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 4: style people from doing this is so uneasy w or something,
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, what the fuck do I care? Like
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 4: there are are people who you will use anything to
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 4: justify what they do, but also be that again circling
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 4: all the way back. This is a big problem that
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 4: I had was just these wrestling wrestling fans, specifically all
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 4: these CW fans. They just don't get it. Like you said, like, oh,
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 4: I should just tell this giant worldwide global corporation that's
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 4: stock traded fu I'm using your footage like that. You
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 4: would have never even been into premiere, they would have
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 4: seen a season just just months before that, you know,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 4: like I would, I would still be paying them today
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 4: if I did that. Oh and for to forget about today,
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 4: it's only been three years. I would be paying them
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 4: well into my eighties and then I wouldn't have had
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 4: the money and I'd probably end up in jail or something. Yeah,
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 4: you just can't do this kind of thing.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And which is why whenever, whenever he said that,
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 3: you could just tell that he's the right experts based
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: on this pass. But but you know, John, I wanted
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: to ask you, you know, you know I've been talking
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 3: to you. I mean, we've been talking about two hours now.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 3: I wanted to. I wanted to. I wanted to ask you, you know,
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 3: what what's next for John? You know what what are
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 3: you working on next?
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 4: Oh, We're we're and it's pained me to say. We
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 4: are in a holding pattern right now. We managed making
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 4: enough money to really reinvest in ourselves, and we still
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 4: have a few things that we want, you know, production wise,
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 4: we want adopted. Like one of the things that you
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 4: should know, first of all, go to Barbara City dot com.
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 4: If you have not seen the documentary, you can download
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 4: it there there are no more DVDs left. I have
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 4: to build bug the guy who does our website, because
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 4: I just I don't look at these things because I
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 4: need it, and I'm you know, in a weird way.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 4: It's like it was over for me the moment the
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 4: after party wrapped, and then I still had to deal
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 4: with it. And that's like the creator part of it,
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like I had lived it,
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 4: I had accomplished it, you know. So I don't go
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 4: to our sheep because I know it's there. You know,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 4: I need the movie, you know. But apparently I just
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 4: saw last week randomly, I wanted to see what the
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 4: website looked like, and there's still it just says DVDs
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 4: are sold out, and I'd say, like once a month,
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 4: I get an email from somebody saying, like when is
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 4: that going to be restocked, and like it's because not
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 4: everybody knows. Like insteady in late January and early February,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 4: we did a kind of like growing out of business
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 4: kind of sale to liquid are DVD stocks. Because when
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 4: you have a normal life and like a day job
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 4: that you have to do in the real world, it's
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 4: really difficult to then like run home and like find
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 4: out what the orders are and you know, run to
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 4: the post office and send these things out and just
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 4: manage the business. You know. It was just it was
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 4: it was that time. So there there's a vo D there,
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 4: I shouldn't say a VOD, but a direct download rather
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 4: like brobr city dot com. You can purchase if you
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 4: want to see it. My point of bringing that up,
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 4: other than a shameless plug is, uh, it's insane and
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 4: their definition and a lot of it was shot on
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 4: a handicam in the early two thousand. You know, obviously
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 4: we wanted to upgrade a lot of stuff. Some of
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 4: it we did have, but it made no sense to
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 4: intersplice that into our film, Like it just would have
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 4: looked like a mess to me. And so obviously everything
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 4: has to be HD. And we wanted better sound, we
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 4: wanted better lighting, we wanted it, you know, we wanted
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 4: a lot of different things. And once we got near that,
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 4: we started talking about different projects and we finally settled
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 4: on one, and it was going to be about gentrification. Essentially,
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 4: it's going to be an urban renewal, which is like
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 4: the promotional press release version, because we're going through that
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 4: in the city I grew up in Mitches Allentown in
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 4: the Holy High Valley in eastern Pennsylvania, and we wanted
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 4: to really study it it does it work? Does it
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 4: not work? I mean there's a lot of things involving money.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 4: I had worked down there during during you know, it's
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 4: still going on. It's like a thirty year past check.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: And now back to the show.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 4: And they built an arena. I mean, the arena was
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 4: supposed to draw all these businesses in and then draw
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 4: all the people who were in an economic state to
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 4: spend money down there and stimulate the economy. And all
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 4: of a sudden, you know, the dilapidated downtown area that
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 4: people are afraidy to go into will become this beautiful,
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 4: you know, almost tourist attraction that the locals spend money
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 4: in as well. And I just said, this is just
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 4: such a good story and we don't have to travel.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 4: When we looked at all the boxes from what we
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 4: learned from making a documentary, he said, this is awesome.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 4: It's in our backyard. We know some of the players,
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 4: we know the people that talk too, we know the journalists.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 4: You know in some cases we knew them first person,
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 4: and I spent a week researching and I had a
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 4: long with three hour conversation on the phone with Kevin.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 4: We had another one in person and then and we've
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 4: been shot some test footage. We went down for the
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 4: second event at the arena to interview people about if
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 4: they were excited about do you know what they thought
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 4: why this was good for the city. And I just
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 4: figured some there's gonna be some weird financial thing going
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 4: on here. It's like there's this special zone called the
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 4: Neighborhood Improvement Zone and the state just gives that money
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 4: back to the to the people who are developing the lands.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 4: And I was just like, this is there guarantee their
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 4: money back? And we're talking millions of dollars And just
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 4: from working down there for a few months, I was like,
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 4: there's something about this. Who's who's watching this? Where's the oversight?
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 4: You know? And Kevin said like, look, you know he
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 4: was Kevin right now is in Alaska. He's in Alaska
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 4: for six months. He left mid June. We had we
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 4: both had to go to a wedding of a mutual friend,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 4: and then a few days later I helped him up
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 4: and drove them down to the Philadelphia International Airport to
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 4: fly out. So he wanted to put the whole thing
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 4: on hold. He just said, there's no point in starting
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 4: this and then me leaving, and it's all being on
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 4: your back, especially because he's far more tech savvy with
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 4: the filmmaking. I'm the dreamer who puts the story together.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 4: I'm a very capable editor, but I'm nowhere near kep,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 4: you know. And he was just like, it's going to
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 4: be a mess. You have to get a replacement person,
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 4: and you're kind of running tech and running a creative
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 4: vision when you interview people or shoot footage, and so
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 4: we kind of put it on hold and maybe even
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 4: like won't do it kind of a thing. And then
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 4: like two weeks ago, maybe three, big headline article in
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 4: the local paper the FBI like readed the mayor, downtown
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 4: mayor's office and a bunch of other offices. And I
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 4: guess in reading this happened to or Lancaster. I forget.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: And now a lot of people, including the main developer
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 4: who is making a cleary hour of money off of this,
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 4: or under investigation apparently by the FBI. I just I
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 4: from Afar. I emailed him the article and I just
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 4: wrote like, of course this would happen. You know, we
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 4: would have been when did we shoot test footage September?
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 4: And I did all my research. We would have been
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 4: pretty sicking of this by now. We would have almost
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 4: been a year in and we would have had the
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 4: contact and had everything, and we would be on the
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 4: ground kind of we were shooting as it happens kind
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 4: of a thing, and which is somehowing with Cabra. He
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 4: does not like sit down, interview, tell the past kind
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 4: of stuff. Actually, his favorite parts are the more active
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 4: parts at the reunion. In our documentary, we used a
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 4: reunion of these guys, as I mentioned before, kind of
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 4: his ten polls that we kept coming back to, bouncing
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 4: between the president of the past. That's his favorite stuff.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 4: So he would have been in love with all of this,
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 4: and now it's all you know, something is going on
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 4: in that story that we kind of felt might be
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 4: an angle of it, and we're not covering it. So
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 4: that's a long way of saying like, hey, would you
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 4: have liked to have seen this? Don's been Yeah, well
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 4: we would have too, but right now we're in a
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 4: holding batter. I didn't manage to make a wonderful five
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 4: minute video for my nephew.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 3: Though for all of you concerned, Hey, you always got
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 3: to be creating John, That's right.
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was an outlet and it was
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 4: a great way to we did it. Not only did
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 4: make it, you know, make my nephews feel important, but
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 4: also it was a great way to test out a
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 4: lot of new stuff we had and mess with because
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 4: it's something where you don't have to be perfect. You know,
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 4: a little kid doesn't care if something's washed out, or
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 4: if the lightstone or the mic, the mic doesn't work right,
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 4: or you're messing with the settings of your new you know,
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 4: HD camera or whatever.
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very true. Uh, you know, and you know, John,
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 3: I want to say, you know, thanks again for coming
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 3: on the show. I know, I you know, we've been
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 3: chatting about ECW and a lot of things that, you know, like,
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 3: I'm definitely gonna have the show notes filled by the way, everyone,
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 3: So if there's anything that John and I've talked about
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 3: that you're kind of like, what the hell was that?
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 3: Trust me, I'm going to put a ton of stuff
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 3: on the show notes because I have a lot of
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 3: notes in front of me, right now, John, where can
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: people find you out online?
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 4: Oh? I'm kind of hiding from social media. I mean,
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 4: if you google my name, you find me. I don't
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 4: knew a lot of Facebook. I've been I've gotten back
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 4: into Twitter only it was a promotional thing that I
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 4: really listen you if you're still listening to it, you
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 4: know I can talk, you know, I may. I may
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 4: not be able to do one hundred and forty two characters.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 4: So the Twitter thing is a little bit of a mess.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 4: But you can find me on Twitter. I don't even
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 4: honestly don't know my handle. But if I there's only
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 4: two John phillipavages in the world, and one of them
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 4: is my dad, and he doesn't know how to work
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 4: with stuff.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 4: You'll find me.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 3: John's Twitter handle is at BWC film.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 4: Do you really can change that? By the way, I
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 4: don't want to know how to change it.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 3: You can change that?
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 4: Okay? Good? Because like that was something that was literally
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 4: just created for the film, and now I just life
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 4: goes on. Like I don't appreciate you having me on
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 4: and it's fun to talk about this stuff, but like
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 4: I do have friends who do podcasts that they have
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 4: me on for different reasons, and then I was like,
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 4: do you come on and you can promote Barbware City.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, can I just not be the barbarre
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 4: city guy, you know, for once? Can I just have
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 4: an opinion that's cheap balid because I'm me and maybe
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 4: I can present myself. Well, well, that's so.
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 3: That's what I had. You want I want you to
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was more of how to create a
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 3: documentary in general, crowdfunding and stuff like that.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 4: I wasn't throwing chad to you, but I do. I
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 4: do need to change that, so I'll have to talk
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 4: to you. I'll have to mesch you. I'm like forty
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 4: five minutes late to meet a friend who fluid from California.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 3: By well, ay, John, I want to say thank you
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 3: and please apologize to your friend for me, John Philipavic,
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 3: documentary filmmaker. John. It was a pleasure and honor, sir,
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 3: and I can't wait to see what you do in
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 3: the future.
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Dad. I had so much fun
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 4: doing this. Man.
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, same here, buddy, and I will talk to
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 3: you very soon. Let's cut you out. Let's not make
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 3: it another like three years before we talk to each
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 3: other again.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 4: Definitely definitely all right.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 3: Take care John, you too, man, byebye.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at Indie film uscle
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: dot com forwards last eight fifty seven, and if you
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: have it already, please head over to filmmaking podcast dot com.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: hustle going, keep that dream alive, stay safe out there,
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 2: and I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast Indie
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: Film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: F I L M h U S T L E
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: dot com.