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JUST JOSH: "Me and Mr Jones" · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Okay. Well, I have been postponing doing this podcast and finding every excuse not to get
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around to it. I'm in New York City, which is fabulous. I flew in from Los Angeles yesterday
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and you would be impressed. You would be truly impressed by the number of irrelevant things
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that I managed to convince myself were really important for me to do there so that I didn't
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have to sit down and have this conversation. I've been dreading this podcast for days since
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the arrest on Monday of one of the most influential Australians of his generation at the age
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of 83 on allegations of sexual assault of young men who mostly worked on his radio show.
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But to be honest, I've also sort of been dreading it for years, really, because I've never
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spoken publicly about the nature of Alan Jones' relationship with me when I was a producer
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on his radio show in my early twenties. But now the man who infuriated the left and had
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prime ministers on speed dial faces the prospect of dying behind bars and much of the public
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and the media establishment have responded to this news with a kind of breathless,
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prurient glee, like a sort of salacious shard and fruiter at the come-upence of such a
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divisive figure. I would normally read some of the tweets to give you an impression of the
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tenor of the conversation in Australia at the moment. But I mean, they're so bad that I'm afraid
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they would be defamatory or prejudicial to the court case. So I won't. But, you know, comparisons
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to the worst people alive, to Harvey Weinstein, to Jimmy Savile, the British entertainer who
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after his death turned out to be a serial child rapist, you know, rotten hell, all that kind of stuff.
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And meanwhile, Alan Jones' allies have nothing much to say that's particularly intelligible.
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They're either tight-lipped or they're railing into the void about it being a witch hunt
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without actually addressing the moral gravity of what's going on.
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And I understand that this is one of those situations where conversations kind of break down,
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like it's very hard to discuss this thoughtfully and delicately and courageously,
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without sounding like you're either prejudging a court case or defaming someone or disputing
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the victim's pain. So everyone seems to have picked their side, or either this is about bloody
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time or it's all a beat up. But for me, this raises all kinds of questions about power and sexuality,
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about retributive justice, consent, and the role that the media should play in helping us to
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evaluate all those things. And the media is doing a pretty lousy job, I think. So it falls to me
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to do so. That is after all the point of this show. Let me emphasize upfront that I don't know
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anything about the credibility of these allegations against Alan Jones. Nothing I say here should be
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construed as implying that they're true or false. Alan Jones is innocent until proven guilty.
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And if the allegations are true, then I feel terribly for the victims. There would be no excuse
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for the kind of behaviour that's being alleged. I'm not making specific claims about the specifics
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of this case. What I can be specific about is my experience as a way to open these issues up.
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Which brings us, I suppose, to the bombshell. I might as well lead with the lead here and reveal
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many of the claims that I've read about Alan's alleged behaviour are familiar to me because I
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experienced them too. I didn't experience them as a victimization. I haven't coded it that way.
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I never thought of it that way. And I'll elaborate a little bit in just a moment on what exactly
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I'm talking about. But I want to make a request of all the Australians listening right now.
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If you think Alan Jones was a despicable and corrupt force of right-wing evil,
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can you just park that for a moment? And conversely, if you think he was an inspiring champion
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of the Aussie battle, can you just park that for a moment? We're talking about prison here.
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And we're talking about our character as people, as commenters, as journalists, as citizens,
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as humans. Character that transcends partisan differences.
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Whether he was a good or bad guy for the country is kind of irrelevant.
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So for American listeners, who is it that I'm talking about? Alan Jones was a originally a
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school teacher. Then he became a rugby coach and was arguably the most successful Australian rugby
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coach of all time. He gave Australia its first blood as low cup victory in almost 40 years,
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a grand slam victory over England, Ireland and Scotland. When he was coaching the Australian rugby
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side, they were victorious in 23 tests out of 30. Then he went into broadcasting and became
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the number one radio host on the number one slot in the number one market for decades.
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So if you imagine kind of a cross between Bill Belichick, Rush Limbaugh,
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Jiminy Glick and Steve Bannon, that would probably take you halfway to Alan Jones.
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To give you a sense of how powerful he was, which really has no comparison in the United States,
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I don't think on his final radio show just a few years ago, the former Prime Minister Tony
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Abbott walked into the studio with a bottle of champagne flanked by the former opposition leader,
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Mark Latham, and then the actual Prime Minister of the day walked in like it's that level.
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Then he lost that radio show because he was becoming increasingly controversial and provocative
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and advertisers were getting anxious and it was time for a new generation at the radio station.
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So he was quite shockingly dismissed and then he lost his Sky News television show and he lost
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his column. He had to sell his most beloved property. He had some health concerns and now he's
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basically been out of the limelight for a few years, which is probably what raises the eyebrows of
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some of his allies as if this is finally the moment when people were able to smell blood in the
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water and have a go at him because last December there was a huge front page piece in the newspaper
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which had been researched for years investigating every complaint against him and compiling a
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forensic mosaic of really awful behaviour, focusing of course on the most salacious and sexy bits.
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And that became the basis for the police investigation, which led to the events of this past
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Monday on Monday morning. There was a knock at the door of his luxury apartment which is next to
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the opera house, panoramic views of the Harbour Bridge in Sydney Harbour. It's an apartment I've
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been to many times and it was detectives from the child abuse squad who arrested him, loaded
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him into an unmarked police car, took him to the police station, over 26 alleged incidents
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against eight or nine alleged victims between 2001 and 2019. Here is how the journalist who wrote
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the cover story and devoted years to investigating it and who's reporting largely brought about this
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prosecution characterises the charges. Over those years there have been allegations of misbehavior
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by Alan Jones ranging from groping to indecent assaults and indecent assault can attract a maximum
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penalty of five years. We are talking these are serious charges that he is facing.
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Now one reason why the charges are especially serious is because they involve a minor
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and because the child's sex abuse squad was conducting the investigation.
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Now the reason for that is that almost all these victims are in their early twenties
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except it seems one who is 17. It may be more than one but the police have said that the
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youngest of the cases is 17. Hence because it's under 18 child sex abuse but most of the alleged
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victims are in their early twenties and I only make this point because this case is being talked
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about in the same context as people like Jimmy Savile and Harvey Weinstein. So the allegations
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that were swirling around Alan Jones in the pieces of journalism which I've read I've read the
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book about Alan. I've read the profiles of Alan and all the allegations that have been leveled
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against him and I can't speak to the allegations that the police are sitting on because they haven't
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released them so I'm not speaking about the specific case but in the media reporting the allegations
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all involve for example Alan Jones hiring an early twenties handsome guy to be his driver to drive
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his fancy car from the studio to his apartment and while they're driving he would allegedly reach
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over and put his hand on the driver's crotch or he would allegedly try to kiss a young male
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staffer in the elevator. That's basically the extent of the allegations it has to do with
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with groping unwanted touching and those kinds of advances. Unless the police have something that
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has never before been reported on and wasn't found in the years of investigative journalism that
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was done into Alan Jones none of the allegations back then had to do with him raping somebody,
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him forcing himself on somebody even after they said no, him locking a door and then having his
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way with somebody to my knowledge and if I'm wrong they're like completely retract this but to my
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knowledge what we know at the moment there's none of that. So you know Harvey Weinstein was locking
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the door of hotel rooms and raping women. Jimmy Savile was raping kindergarteners.
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Now I understand there is a taboo around trying to say that there are some better forms of
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terrible things and some worse forms of terrible things because even in saying this I'll get
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attacked for saying Josh Josh is saying that some kinds of child abuse are okay Josh think
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some kind of child abuse are okay I don't I don't I'm just reacting to the reaction essentially
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to these allegations and to these charges and noting that yes I understand that since the me
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two movement we're not supposed to say that some forms of abuse are better and some are worse
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but deep down if we're honest with ourselves like if you were given the option of two terrible
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outcomes one of which that your child was going to be raped at the age of five and the other of
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which was that your child was going to have an unwanted hand placed on his crotch at the age of
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17 it's just not true that you would throw your hands in the air and say well it's impossible to
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decide there are there are no degrees of abuse abuse is abuse and we have to have a zero tolerance
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to everything all child abuse is equally wrong we might as well toss a coin of course you
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wouldn't say that we've imbibed this talking point that measuring degrees of abuse disrespect the
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victims but one might also think it disrespects Jimmy Savile's victims to compare them to a physically
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mature man on the wrong end of an improper pass but there you go as I say these are all still
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allegations nothing I'm saying here is meant to suggest that any of them are true
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Alan's innocent unless he's proven otherwise I think it's worth noting that there are few
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things I think that are being conflated in our reactions to this and not just this case but
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many similar cases and I'd like to separate them firstly there's a question of whether Alan
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Jones was a force for good or evil in Australian public life because I think a lot of people are
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allowing their reaction to this to be contaminated by their prior judgment of the man secondly there's
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the question of what investigative resources and what retributive harshness should we apply
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to specific cases in other words like is this sort of a witch hunt the third question
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is would it have been appropriate if these allegations were allegations of verbally hitting on
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younger male staffers without the touching like can we is it possible for us to tease a part
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how much of this is a yuck factor at the claim that an old powerful person used his position of
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privilege in order to try to coerce a young handsome person to sleep with him supposedly
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fourthly does it matter why he did what he's alleged to have done would that make a difference
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and fifthly should allegations like these define the totality of someone's character
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and how much glee should we take in someone's downfall on the first couple of questions whether he's
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a force for good or evil and how we should allocate resources and retribution the claims of
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it being a witch hunt are frequently responded to by Alan Jones's opponents saying what are you
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talking about he has been a suspected sexual misbehavior for years and you know this is
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finally the house of cards falling and him getting what was coming to him to which I would say well
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that doesn't that make it smell a little bit witch-hunting like if it's true that 20 years ago
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everyone knew about this but that he enjoyed the protection of the establishment
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that smells a bit off doesn't it I mean of course if you do the crime you should do the time
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the question is which behaviors reach the threshold of crimes worthy of devoting tremendous
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journalistic resources to investigating and worthy of police investigators spending months or
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years on like when is harm being avoided and when is an example being made of someone you don't
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need to call it a witch hunt but I also wouldn't regard it as like a triumph of justice if it were
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the case that elites had allowed someone to behave openly in certain ways for years as long as
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he had influence and then the moment he's of no use to politicians and high profile journalists
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they insist that what they'd previously tolerated is now worth sending into jail for
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I should shout out here that the only person with actual cajonus in the anti-alongon
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saga was Chris Masters and four corners an ABC show and Alan and I'm one a book publisher
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who dared to level some of these allegations 20 years ago when Alon Jones did in fact have
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real power now 20 odd years ago I got a job working for Alan Jones and I was a precocious
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intelligent not bad looking guy in my early 20s trying to get noticed by powerful people in
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broadcasting to get a job as a producer of the Alan Jones show was the greatest opportunity
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in the industry I mean it was not just the most listened to radio show in the country's number one
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market but as I've said he was a titan of culture and politics he was reviled and adored in equal
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measure there was probably no one in the country who was more valuable to have on your side than
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Alan Jones and no one more fearsome as an opponent so the stakes were high now here I disagree
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and disagreed about almost everything politically so this isn't a question of like you know finding
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someone's political soulmate or something but nonetheless we did hit it off on my first day actually
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one of his most senior producers looked at me and said oh he's gonna like you and he did I think
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that was partly just because I was his type who was partly I don't know an intellectual thing I
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think he's a sucker for smart creative people and I ended up being invited back to his apartment
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an afternoon to finish up work because it was a breakfast radio show the the offer stay would end
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late morning he flew me to Melbourne business class with him to help get on top of his correspondence
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we spent a weekend at his retreat in the countryside he let me stay in the spare room at his place
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in surface paradise in fact he even let me crash that pad with a few friends when he wasn't there
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he was very generous and passionate and kind I've never met anyone who when you're having a
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conversation with them is three steps ahead of you I mean he's he's playing through dimensional
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chess constantly his knee always tapping you know his mind always sparkling his eyes always twinkling
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he he was sort of a I mean in a strange way it was like he was a man from another era he was like
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it was a 19th century dandy kind of plucked down into the 21st century and incredibly
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motivational which is probably which probably explains a lot of his success as a rugby coach
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now he's able to foster an incredible camaraderie amongst people and it was clear that he had a
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crush on me and he hit on me many times and in that context hitting on me meant making a physical move
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not a verbal one he tried to put his hand on my dick he tried to kiss me tried to rub my chest
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and I would just slap him off and he would laugh and we'd move on he he's a fiery poetic
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operatic whirlwind of a man so in a weird way it just seemed to me kind of less strange that he
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would try to affirm our bond with a clumsy physical path then by doing what inviting me to tea with
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the prime minister like taking me to an opening night and being sneered at by the cultural elite
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inviting me as his date to a luncheon with a bunch of homophobic old business titans no you
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know every time he was rebuffed which was every time because I had no interest in that he backed off
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and usually laughed it off it it wasn't for me anything sinister it wasn't for me anything threatening
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it was playful excessively romantic I sort of I just coded it as part of this weird idiosyncratic
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human being who you couldn't fit in a box now this is not intended to say that everyone should
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experience things the same way like everyone is entitled to interpret their experiences how
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they want I'm not here to question the trauma that people claim to feel I'm not in their skin
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everyone's feelings are valid all I can say is it was a completely undramatic part of my life
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whenever I would go through a personal crisis of some kind Alan would be the first person
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I would call I was very supportive and I guess I what I understood it as at the time even though I
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sort of knew it was inappropriate like maybe I'm just emotionally inert or you know insufficiently
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outrageable but I sort of understood it just as a way of flirting like I look a physical overture
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is not an uncommon tactic for loveless frustrated closeted gaze you know like that is just a
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reality then this does not in any way mean that the allegations that are being leveled against him
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would be appropriate behavior if they are true it's simply to report on the way that I thought
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about it at the time I just thought like you know if you've never had love and affection and
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closeness and he hasn't to my knowledge he's never had a partner then maybe you're a you know
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maybe you don't have the memo about how things are supposed to work again I'm not saying that
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if any of this stuff happened it didn't feel serious to the people who were involved
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if the allegations turn out to be true they're completely unacceptable it's totally
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inappropriate behavior I'm just saying that in my experience I was not a victim of sexual assault
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I guess I also want to take ownership of my agency in this in some way like you know we all
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play the cards we're dealt this happens in entertainment all the time again it's become taboo
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since the me two movement to acknowledge the agency of people who are involved in this because
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of course it sounds but like a terrible way of blaming the victim if you imply that you know
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the the victimized person somehow had it coming or something this is not what I'm implying at all
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but the casting couch is a casting couch for a reason if you have looks and youth on your side
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then you play those cards if you don't have looks and youth on your side but you do have status
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and influence and money you play those cards you fly the guy to Melbourne business class
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you let him use your apartment in surface paradise you give him attention and inspiration and
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praise and you hope that that gets you across the line when you need to make a move like when I
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worked for him he promoted me to be a senior producer implausibly fast would he have done that
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if I wasn't a decent looking guy in my early twenties probably not did I know that on some level
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at the time yeah did I refuse the opportunities he gave me on the basis of my principled objection
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to them possibly being motivated by him having a crush on me of course I didn't
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nor does anyone in the real world refrain from taking the advantages that come with the hand they
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were dealt like this is all just sort of a way of addressing the third issue that I teased out
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at the top which is how would we feel about all this if the allegations were merely that he had
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hit on much younger male staffers but without touching them because what should be appalling about
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these allegations is not so much the dynamic itself but the fact that the alleged moves were not
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respectful and verbal but were instead tactile and disrespectful now if you go to any gay club
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any night of the week you'll see that grabbing someone's crotch is in some circumstances an
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acceptable form of courtship but definitely not in the workplace so it's just worth carving out
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psychologically for ourselves how much of our objections how much of our gloating our glee our
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sort of outrage relates to there being something deeply unseemly about the claim that an elderly
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closeted powerful man was making moves on people who are I suppose in a position of less power but
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this comes back to the question of of playing the cards you're dealt there is a certain power in
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being young and attractive and how much of it has to do with the actual you know the claims of
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physical overreach so to speak which brings us to the fourth issue which is would it matter
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why Alan Jones did what he is alleged to have done because in some cases it strikes me that we're quite
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uncomfortable defining people by the worst thing they've ever done but in other cases we're quite
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comfortable defining people by the worst thing they've ever done like there is a logic in the social
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justice movement with its concerns about the over incarceration of young indigenous people and
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the over policing of communities of color which is that we ought to temper our righteous fury against
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the perpetrators of crimes with a recognition that they are in part products of their environment
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one of the reasons why they behave they do is because they come from a particular place in a
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particular time a particular culture when an indigenous man drinks too much and mistreats his
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kids we don't relish publicizing it we don't take glee in pouring over the gory details we don't
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feel righteous about throwing the book at him we try to understand what's going on we have a
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certain level of empathy and sorrowful emotional restrained that is completely absent in this case
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I'm not saying you don't prosecute crimes but that you do so mindful of the context of the person's
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entire life and their impediments you don't do it as a triumphalist prudent gleeful fixation
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now I suppose this is partly complicated by the fact that Alan himself believed in being tough
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on crime but just because your enemy promoted foul beliefs doesn't mean you should descend to them
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you either believe in your principles or not either we cut people some slack for being
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products of their environment or we don't a ghardest might believe in beheading infidel but we
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don't behead him for it you know we treat him with an understanding that he is a product of a
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certain culture a certain time and a certain place and you can hate Alan Jones as much as you want
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you can differ from him politically as much as you want you can think that he's a corrosive
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force in Australian public life as much as you want but the reality is that the time and place
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that he came from was rural queens land in the 1950s now again I don't know whether any of these
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allegations are true or false I'm not commenting on this court case so let's speak in general terms
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about what it might be like to grow up in a very homophobic country in the 1950s and in a
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particularly regressive part of that country there's something that I think you should understand
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if you're straight about the closet and I only got a glimpse of this in the moments before I was
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coming out but I suspect that this is a state in which closeted people of Alan Jones's era
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have had to spend their entire lives it may help to begin by contrasting it with the situation
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today so today now that gay is normalized in big progressive cities like the one that you probably
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live in today if you feel lust or romantic affection for someone of the same sex you have a
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context for it your gay or bisexual or whatever you have an identity it fits into a box in culture
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and society that did not exist in the 1950s what you were was a pervert you were a disgrace
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you were filthy and you certainly weren't going to be allowed into polite society and as a result
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many people never properly processed their sexuality and many of them stayed in the closet
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forever I have a hunch when it's just a hunch but see if it rings true for you that people in that
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situation might find themselves trapped in a kind of adolescent phase of sexual development
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like it's not at all implausible to me that if you were raised to believe that you're a dysfunctional
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pervert that you code the sort of fluttery sunny camaraderie of blossoming male friendship
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as a kind of playful adolescent fooling around and that the way in which straight people are able
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to grow out of puberty and into a mature relationship hopefully between their sexuality their workplace
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environment and their friendships in which those things have different norms and different
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categories in which they feel sort of comfortable in their own skin in the performative roles of
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each of those forms of human existence may just not develop properly that that does not mean
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that any of this would be okay to act on and it does not mean that Alan Jones did act on it because
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I don't know whether he's guilty because we haven't had a court case yet but it does mean
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that if you grow up in the 1950s in rural Queensland you probably don't see any alternative
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except to live a loveless life if you're gay if you are a self-hating homosexual of a bygone era
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you might not think that the passions of your heart and your loins deserve to be expressed in the
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stuffy conventional heteronormative manner of going on dates and politely asking people out
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and conforming to a set of romantic norms that were always the exclusive domain of straight people
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not of dysfunctional perverts like you you were never invited into that club
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you were never allowed to join the world of the family and the marriage and the white
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picket fence and grownups pooing over how adorable you are for bringing a date home in your teens
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as they nudge nudge wink wink ignore the thought of what you might get up to in the back seat of
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your car at the drive-in movie theatre in rural Queensland because when you're a straight teenager
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what you might get up to in the back seat of a car is cute to grownups when you're a filthy
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faggot it's not cute you do not belong and you do not understand your emotional life as fitting
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into the norms of polite society nowadays the world has changed and thank god for it
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I have the white picket fence I have the husband I have the normality because I was just lucky
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to be born at the moment in history when this all became okay but excuse me it is a bit
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fucking rich for society to spend centuries demonizing a group of people telling them they're not
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worthy of belonging to the institutions of normal society telling them they can't have marriage
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and that their love is depraved and then acting morally self-righteous when those people express
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their love in depraved ways when those people express their love or their affection or they're
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you know just wanting to get their rocks off when they express their urges in ways that don't conform
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to the polite society that they spent their whole life being excluded from and now that kind of
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dysfunction is prosecuted criminally with the full force of the law three seconds after the
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Alan Joneses of the world were accepted into the club the same police force that arrested Alan
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Jones this week is the police force that would have arrested him for being gay when he was my age
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let that sink in the police who arrested Alan Jones this week would have arrested him for being
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gay when he was my age cops were beating fags in the street for no reason when Alan Jones was a
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middle-aged man and now we have the balls to pontificate about what an evil man he is for allegedly
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not expressing his sexuality respectfully and conventionally according to the proper norms
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of the club that we spent his entire life excluding him from now do you know what I'm not saying
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here what I'm not saying is that the things that he is alleged to have done are in any way acceptable
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if they happened and again they are only allegations the man is innocent unless proven guilty
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but if they happened then they would be wrong and illegal what I'm saying is that as you celebrate
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the downfall of a man you always wanted to bring down somehow note what it does to your soul
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to caricature him as an evil cartoon villain instead of as a human being
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now I can imagine some listeners thinking well it was probably not as bad for Josh because
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you know Josh is gay anyway I have thought about that and I've concluded that that claim is
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actually homophobic or at least it condones the homophobia that it implies in the alleged victims'
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minds an unwanted pass is an unwanted pass if you don't want to roll in the hay with someone you
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don't want to roll in the hay with them their overtures are going to get them nowhere so their gender
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is irrelevant unless maybe there's a threat of physical violence which has never been alleged
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against Alan and by that logic anyway his being a man should have made him more threatening to me
35:03
not less although as a strapping 20 year old I would not have come out poorly in any scuffle with
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him and nor presumably would any of the alleged victims but anyway put it put it this way if it
35:16
had been a powerful old female boss who tried to touch my junk would I be more traumatized as a
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gay man no to say that I would have been traumatized by my experience if I was straight is to say
35:30
that straight people ought to be more repulsed by gayness that you know unwanted gay canoodling
35:39
is somehow intrinsically more grotesque than unwanted straight canoodling it's just it's not
35:44
it's it's all just unwanted canoodling and I defy any other podcaster to use the word canoodling
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three times so quickly I just one I just found out by the way I just I'm the winner of the
35:57
2024 Australian podcast awards which is fabulous for which thank you judging panel
36:05
and now you know why is because I use words like canoodling a lot I also don't want to be misunderstood
36:13
here to be suggesting that my experience should be everybody's I said this at the start but you
36:18
know it would bid bears reiterating if the alleged victims say they didn't have as polianne or
36:24
an experience with Alan as I did if they didn't experience the alleged incidents as something faintly
36:31
ludicrous as I did then my heart goes out to them if the claim to the true then I am deeply deeply
36:39
sorry I'm also not saying that gay people are more likely to commit sexual assault by the way
36:46
or that being in the closet makes it okay for you to behave however you want I hope that's obvious
36:51
just covering bases for the record to wrap us up here let me loop back to the idea
36:59
that we all play the cards we're dealt that I played the cards I had when I was an ambitious kid
37:07
and being in Alan's orbit was a benefit that he played the cards he had on me that everyone
37:14
else in that office was playing their cards that everyone in the wider world who supposedly knew
37:21
something was off but ignored it was playing their cards and that now the establishment of
37:30
center left journalists academics activists and policy folks who have always detested Alan Jones
37:40
are now playing their cards too Alan used to have a better hand than they did
37:46
he had a hotline to the prime minister he had millions of listeners he had the loyalty of business
37:51
leaders now the balance has shifted and their hand looks pretty good what are the cards held by
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people pruriently transfixed on bringing him down and reporting on it with such glee well
38:06
they've got investigative power they've got time and money to invest in generating salacious
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clickbait about someone who is much reviled by their click they have the influence of the press
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and now they get to play those cards spend that capital on things that benefit them
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like an aura of moral righteousness the back slapping kudos of their peers at Christmas cocktail
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parties maybe even a journalism award for just how deep they sunk their arms into the pit of
38:37
an old man's sexual peckadillos i'm not immune to this like i'm playing my cards here too
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right i'm the independent contrarian broadcaster who tells it like it is i'll cop to that
38:52
but which position is the more consistent the more ethical the more courageous
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what takes actual courage is standing up to powerful people who aren't already out cold on the mat
39:11
what takes actual courage is upholding your principles consistently such that you grant the same
39:18
empathy to an allegedly handsy broadcaster that you do to a Sudanese Australian gang member what
39:26
takes actual courage is taking the unpopular position you might even say producing a podcast
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like this one that contravenes the comfortable moral consensus about Alan and that will no
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doubt lead to me being mischaracterized as a defender of the indefensible
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Alan is a complicated man he was raised in rural Queensland in the 1950s
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and knew no way to find human connection except through his work that was my experience of him
40:01
and the allegation is that he unwisely mixed work with pleasure in unacceptable ways
40:08
he was a fiery provocative deranging right wing force in Australian life
40:16
he is also hugely charitable loyal dedicated and was an inspiration to countless people
40:28
how will those two sides of him balance out like you know at the pearly gates after your tally
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all the good and the bad i don't know what the great cosmic ledger will have to say about Alan's
40:40
net impact on society but you know what the people who are rejoicing in his downfall don't know either
40:50
i don't want to be defined by the worst things i've ever done
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you're entitled to define Alan Jones by the worst things he may have done
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but i hope that when people do the same thing to you they don't take such bloody glee in doing it
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i'll be back next week take care