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How to tie in sustainability and data analytics to deliver successful projects · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the IPM podcast. IPM is the childhood body for
0:11
the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm
0:14
the editor of Project APMS Quarterly Journal and your host
0:18
in this podcast. I'm speaking with Doctor Joe
0:20
Jolly, Deputy Director and Head of Project Futures at the
0:23
Infrastructure and Projects Authority.
0:25
He recently spoke at APM's Change Changes conference.
0:28
Everything is touched by projects, Joe told the audience.
0:32
The UN Sustainable Development Goals should be actions for all
0:35
our projects. We can do these things if we
0:37
want to. It's something I wanted to blow
0:39
up with her in this podcast. So listen on as she shares how
0:42
project delivery can be transformed for the better by
0:45
embracing data and human collaboration and so improves
0:48
society and all our lives. OK, Well, I mean, I'll.
0:55
I'll just begin by welcoming you.
0:57
Thank you for your time and for joining us.
1:00
Thanks, Emma. So I recently saw you speak and
1:04
contribute at the APM Change Changes conference earlier in
1:08
the year. And you talked about the need to
1:11
transform project delivery so that it would become powered by
1:16
data and would value humans. So what did you mean by that?
1:20
So probably the best place to point people towards is the
1:24
transforming infrastructure performance road map to 2030.
1:28
You can just it's on gov.uk and then whilst it's infrastructure,
1:33
you know don't don't hang your hat on that bit too much because
1:37
when you look at what tip transforming infrastructure
1:40
performance talks about, there's five themes.
1:43
So it's digital data, sustainability, capability and
1:46
leadership market capacity and basically commercial models,
1:50
delivery models. And when you look at the diagram
1:53
in the tip road map to 2030, what it talks about is the
1:56
system of systems, so the natural environment and the
1:59
built environment and how they're both.
2:01
Innately connected and how projects basically somehow
2:06
intervene in those systems to deliver services.
2:09
So in the case of infrastructure, we build
2:11
hospitals to provide healthcare, we build schools to provide
2:14
education. But at the top of the the tip
2:16
diagram are the UN suspect, the 17 UN Sustainable Development
2:20
Goals, and that's what's described as the outcomes of the
2:24
projects. So that's saying that through
2:27
the work we do through the projects we deliver the the
2:30
outcomes are ultimately the UN SDG's that's what we contribute
2:34
to. So I think that's.
2:37
You know that is huge. At the top of that diagram isn't
2:39
GDP or benefit cost it's the UN SDG's and and that document has
2:43
been approved by Treasury and Cabinet Office.
2:45
You know this is, this is a really significant and I think
2:50
incredibly insightful and thoughtful and meaningful piece
2:53
of work and it's that that my team are basically going all out
2:58
to work with the community. We're a team of nine the project
3:01
features team. We can't deliver it on our own,
3:03
but to get the these core principles of tip into business
3:08
as usual by 2025 and that's really what we're driving hard
3:12
at over the next two years through a series of.
3:15
Three month sprints. So how do you go about making
3:19
this vision of of TIP actually reality and and how can project
3:25
professionals listening to this actually find out more about how
3:29
to do that? It's an excellent question and
3:32
and that's why again as a project team we've we've tried
3:36
to or we have come up with a mission statement you know what
3:39
is this all about and This is why we're saying tip businesses
3:41
usual 2025 value LED data-driven project delivery and and the
3:47
value LED bit of course is, is the UN SDG's we're being led by
3:51
that that value purpose and unless we are absolutely
3:58
maximising the power of data and data analytics in project
4:02
delivery we will simply not deliver what we need to in the
4:05
timescales we need to we're sort of artificially cutting
4:08
ourselves off to a whole. Capability that we're just not
4:11
capitalising on and yet we use it in our everyday lives for
4:14
everything else. Why is that?
4:16
There's a lot of so much interest in this whole area and
4:21
a lot of talk about generally about the benefits.
4:24
But is it because we're struggling to find the case
4:27
studies or discussion around how people actually using analytics
4:32
and AI? Is it a lack of collaboration
4:34
between programmes or across sectors, across organisations in
4:39
the real world? How do you see that tech like
4:42
this is helping project delivery?
4:45
I think we're a long way off at the moment.
4:47
I think what's great about things like chat TPT is it's it
4:52
has got people engaged, doesn't it?
4:54
It has got people genuinely interested and fearful.
4:58
And you know, humans, we don't change.
5:00
Either there's got to be a huge goal to go towards or there's
5:03
got to be a threat that makes us change and I think we're feeling
5:07
a bit of that now. So that's good and I think we've
5:09
got to capitalise on it. But but in terms of project
5:12
delivery, no, we just not doing it.
5:14
So. And what I find baffling, and I
5:16
don't know the answer is, is how is it that in our lives outside
5:21
of project delivery, you know, the world has just sort of.
5:24
Moved along, hasn't it. So we've we've got apps, we've
5:27
got smartphones, we've got sat NAV, I've got my banking, you
5:30
know do online banking. I can access my banking data
5:33
whenever I want to. But why is it then that I can't
5:36
access the carbon data on my project whenever I want to Or
5:39
you know why is it I'm looking at spreadsheet with some most
5:43
likely average quality data in it.
5:45
And why then as project delivery professionals do we not say
5:50
whoa, this is so weird, I can Google anything and yet if I
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want to find out something about project delivery or what's
5:57
happening in the community, there's no there's no search
6:00
engine for that. Yeah, all the tech exists.
6:02
We can easily do that and it's something we started doing at
6:04
the Environment Agency was. Using graph databases you can
6:10
start to set up, you know, a database of things that are
6:15
happening, people that are working on things, projects that
6:18
are happening, organisations working on things.
6:20
And then you can interrogate it. And it's a piece of work that I
6:23
really want us to continue now at the IPA.
6:26
So they're effectively we have a community tool that connects
6:30
people in a way that we only do it through conversations or
6:34
through. I just happen to know someone
6:36
who's working on something, whereas instead I could just say
6:39
who's working on improving benefits realisation right now.
6:41
Ohh great. Someone at HS2, someone in the
6:44
NHS? Great.
6:45
Went up to them. What?
6:47
Why aren't we doing that? Two years is a short time to to
6:51
get tip principles into business as usual by 2025.
6:54
But I don't think as humans we change.
6:57
If we say right, we'll do it from now to 2030, we'll do it in
7:01
increments of seven years. We don't change doing things
7:04
like that. You have to go hard at something
7:06
for a short time, especially a system like project delivery
7:09
that has been, that's so entrenched and you know, so set
7:14
really for so many decades to try to change that system, I
7:18
think you've got to go hard at it for a relatively short two
7:22
years period of time. In order to get things into the
7:25
system so that the project delivery system changes and then
7:29
from then on yes you've you've got ongoing improvements and and
7:33
the community self sustains. So the graph database is a great
7:37
example of how you get something into the system so that the
7:40
community self sustains so that it continues to learn and
7:43
improve. And if we can get those things
7:45
into the system, those kind of things into the system over the
7:47
next two years, then the rest will simply be a follow on How
7:52
do you change the system and the process so that projects can be
7:56
done in a way that's more successful, takes advantage of
7:59
all the data analytics out there and any future tech that comes
8:02
on and perhaps there's more collaborative.
8:05
Knowledge and awareness has gotta be Awareness, awareness,
8:09
awareness. You've you, you know,
8:10
astonishingly we've we've somehow just ended up in this
8:14
place of learnt helplessness. What do you mean by that?
8:18
Well, people, they heard me say before, but a couple of years
8:21
ago the Institute of Civil Engineers ran a survey about
8:24
what makes good design and one of the questions was what are
8:28
the major blockers to including greenhouse gas emission
8:31
reduction and climate adaptation into into designs.
8:36
And one of the one of the main reasons was it's not part of the
8:39
project brief and I remember when I read it, I just thought,
8:43
you know, when did we have to? Be told to do the right thing
8:48
and the the the sort of converse example of that is the Boston
8:53
barrier projects and again you can get this paper on the
8:57
Institute of Civil Engineers library.
8:59
They retrospectively mapped the benefits of the project against
9:03
the UN sustainable development goals at the end of the project.
9:06
And what they saw was so beyond simply, you know, being a a
9:11
fantastic flood defence project, they'd also contributed to
9:14
gender equality because half the design team was female and the
9:17
contributed to better education because they sent spent time in
9:20
schools and other things. Now that was kind of
9:23
happenstance. If you like, because good people
9:25
did good things. And I'm really not talking about
9:27
greenwashing here. What I'm talking about is how we
9:31
do additional benefit or additional minimisation of harm
9:36
towards the SDG's and if I can give you a brief example of how
9:40
we can so easily bring this to life.
9:43
I was very generously invited to present at the first cohort of a
9:47
recent MPL a major Project Leadership Academy cohort that
9:51
was just starting. And the first session was led by
9:53
a brilliant guy called John Cowell who's a psychologist and
9:56
he talks about purpose and leadership.
9:58
He talks about understanding ourselves and understanding each
10:01
other and our values. And I talked about, you know,
10:06
the need to transform project delivery so that we can make the
10:09
best difference we can for the planet.
10:12
You know, for people, for the economy, for society and
10:15
ultimately for the planet. Because if we don't have a
10:17
healthy planet, we don't have any of those other things.
10:20
And I talked about the Boston Barrier Project and and how we
10:24
can make a difference. Like I say, not not even just
10:26
the direct outputs of the project, but the decisions we
10:30
make every single day. And each of the tables are like
10:33
7 tables and they they just have the picture of you and SDG's and
10:38
they talked about one of their projects to say how can we
10:41
contribute. And then I've got a prize which
10:43
was I deducted a an orangutan from the WWF.
10:47
So that was the prize and and the person who won was a guy
10:50
called Peter Hoadley from the MOD and the reason he one was
10:54
the story he took. They were all amazing.
10:56
I couldn't choose between them. But the reason he won was
10:59
because of the story he told, the candour.
11:02
He told it with the vulnerability and the sort of
11:04
humility that he told it with because that's what we need.
11:07
And also the creativity in how he saw his project.
11:10
Because what he said was my project is body armour for the
11:15
army and currently it pretty much fits about one size of man.
11:19
It doesn't fit women. It doesn't fit.
11:20
Because it doesn't fit, you know, big difference, big ranges
11:23
of men. So yeah, on the face of it, I'm
11:25
contributing to gender equality on the USGS.
11:28
And he said, and I don't think there's really much else my
11:31
project can contribute to. But then he started thinking
11:33
about it and talking about it and he was open minded, you
11:37
know, he was open minded, wasn't he?
11:38
And he said, actually, I then thought, where are we
11:41
manufacturing these, this, this body, aren't there?
11:44
You know, could we choose where we manufacture it so that
11:47
actually it it invests it in a really a poorer part of the
11:51
world? Can we think about the working
11:53
conditions of the people there, maybe the education of their
11:55
children? What?
11:57
What's the effort? What are the emissions?
11:59
The air from this production of material what's the emissions,
12:02
what's the affluence of water? And before he and he said before
12:06
I thought about it, but you know before I thought about it for
12:08
long I was contributing to all seventeen goals.
12:11
And he said in my mind's eye it was like a dart board.
12:14
The ones in the middle were the ones I was contributing most to
12:17
and that's we went out. It was contributing to less but
12:20
I could still contribute. I could still make a positive
12:23
additional difference to what I was originally going to do
12:26
through the choices I make. And I said, Peter, I take my hat
12:30
off to you. This is it.
12:32
Now I often get the old, but it's more expensive or low
12:35
carbon concrete. It's more expensive and.
12:38
OK, I get that maybe we can't do everything we want to, but don't
12:42
tell me on a daily basis we are doing the very best we can
12:47
through the choices we make, through the billions of pounds
12:50
we are trusted to invest. That we are doing our best.
12:54
I I I genuinely don't believe that and and this is about
12:59
awareness and choices and that's really what I'm advocating.
13:02
Emma and I think that puts the project professional as the
13:06
individual in the kind of driving seat, because not only
13:09
then can you make your connection with the ultimate
13:11
purpose of the project and you can link it to those UN SDG's.
13:16
So I think yes, realising our, our agency as we often call it,
13:20
isn't it you know that actually the impact I can have, you know
13:23
the UN SDG's is I think is such a a beautiful framework to aim
13:27
at because we really start thinking about the system then
13:30
how do we make the system? Better so that good things
13:34
happen and I'm not I'm not gonna angst that I can't quantify all
13:39
of that. All I know is if we keep working
13:42
towards them in a positive way and minimising the harm, we will
13:45
make things better. But very often it's hard to know
13:48
where to start. I'm hopeless with a blank sheet
13:50
of paper and that's where I think and the things like data
13:53
and data analytics are fantastic because again it connects
13:56
communities. So one thing that we did develop
13:59
just a hack the wonderful hackathons that the project data
14:02
on this it's community runs. Yes, I was going to ask you
14:05
about that. Can you tell us a bit more about
14:06
that? Because I read that you you
14:08
developed an app and that you might be open sourcing as a tool
14:12
for others to use. So yes, tell us a bit about
14:14
these hackathons. So people turn up from all walks
14:18
of life, really all walks of life, and they come together for
14:21
two days to solve thorny problems in project delivery
14:25
just because they want to. Just because they can.
14:27
Just because they feel good doing it and these people from
14:30
the project management community then.
14:32
Essentially, yes, but but you know, it could, they could
14:34
become from the banking sector or media or you know there's
14:38
there's all sorts. And of course, you know that
14:41
this is a huge shout out to Martin Paver, whose vision
14:47
really has been, and his values. All about the community
14:53
achieving the very most it can for itself.
14:57
So that you know that the brilliant consultancies and the
15:01
brilliant minds out there actually work on the higher
15:03
level stuff. So let's let's equip ourselves
15:07
with the with the knowledge and that's why advocating things
15:11
like project data, analytics, apprenticeships is absolutely
15:14
key And as actually we are just about to launch across
15:20
government cohort going on the project data analytics
15:24
apprenticeship. So that's two or three people
15:27
from every major. Delivery department and I'm
15:31
doing it myself. I cannot wait that we're going
15:34
to go through as a as a cohort to learn about project data
15:38
analytics to really learn because if we say the IPA, we
15:41
say be an intelligent client, how can we be an intelligent
15:45
client if we don't understand data and data analytics.
15:48
So we're going through as a cohort, we're going to learn
15:50
together, but we're also going to understand the pain points.
15:53
We're going to understand what the challenges are in getting
15:56
projects in in in leveraging the power of data analytics, in
16:00
project delivery. And then we can be the change
16:03
agents, We can be the people who will drive the changes through
16:06
the system. To enable data and data
16:09
analytics to be used as it's absolute maximum.
16:12
But in the meantime, there's incredibly simple things we can
16:15
do. So the app that I mentioned
16:18
again, it, it started out as a spreadsheet at the Environment
16:21
Agency because the Environment Agency built on the great work
16:24
of the Boston Barrier Project and then developed an approach
16:27
where we could really hone in on the UN SDG's that the
16:31
Environment Agencies programme contributes the most to
16:33
typically. But it was all in the
16:35
spreadsheet and of course spreadsheets are a nightmare to
16:38
deal with. You know, errors all riddled
16:39
through it and it's not easy to cut the data and things.
16:42
So it's crying out to be an app, isn't it?
16:44
So we took it to a hackathon. Spun it up into an app in two
16:48
days, spent a little bit more time polishing up afterwards and
16:52
now it's ready to be used. So again, this becomes a tool
16:56
that the community can use and imagine if all project delivery
16:59
professionals. It's a very simple tool, there's
17:01
nothing fancy about it. But if you're struggling for
17:04
ideas, you could think, gosh, I want to contribute for you in
17:07
stages of my project, but I don't know where to start.
17:09
I know I'll have a look at this app and see what people have
17:12
been doing in the way of contributing to gender equality.
17:15
And then the way my mind works, I'd go, I can do that.
17:18
Well actually I've got this other idea now.
17:19
So again, data analytics. It's not all about dashboards
17:23
and and. BIM or something?
17:25
This is about connecting communities.
17:28
It's about enabling collaboration.
17:30
It's about sharing knowledge in a way, in a speed that we've
17:34
never that we don't do now. I mean, I've got to ask you,
17:37
where do you find this? Happening.
17:38
Well, well, well, well. Again, all credit to Martin
17:42
Paver and the work that he and his team do just this week, what
17:46
he's done and I couldn't. Again, I can send you a link
17:49
after he's actually launched a solution centre.
17:52
So all of the apps and the products that are coming out of
17:56
the hacks are going to be hosted in this solution centre for
18:00
people to access. OK, we'll put a link to that
18:03
into the description for this podcast.
18:05
Yeah, what you talk about and all the work that you've done so
18:09
far bringing these good things about.
18:12
Can these things be taken from organisations beyond government
18:16
and civil service? Can there be lessons learned
18:19
from that so that if you're in an organisation that that that a
18:23
commercial organisation, can you, can you learn from the kind
18:27
of lessons you you're, you're putting out there, all the apps
18:30
and everything? From my perspective as project
18:34
futures at the IPA, what what, what we've moved beyond, if you
18:39
like, is we we did have these so-called Tip Pathfinder
18:42
projects. Which were government major
18:43
projects and that's that's good. So you can have you know some
18:47
major projects that are trying to pioneer, you know some of the
18:51
principles and move things forward.
18:53
But if you think about it, we've sort of limited ourselves there
18:55
to 11 projects or however many you choose.
18:58
And So what we're doing beyond that then is, is case studies.
19:03
So that means anybody, anywhere, whether it's private sector,
19:07
public sector, academia, UK, global, anybody who is leading
19:12
the field against these principles, which we shine a
19:16
light on it, we learn from it, we champion it and how do we
19:21
embed it? App scale, because let's not
19:23
reinvent the wheel again. We haven't got time and why
19:27
would we so let let's learn so much better and faster from
19:31
others and break down those silos across public and private
19:35
sector academia. We're nowhere near connected
19:37
enough. But again, that's how data and
19:40
data analytics can connect us more and and that's definitely a
19:43
you know something we're really advocating at the IPA.
19:46
So come forward with your brilliant ideas.
19:48
Well, how? How did people get in touch with
19:50
you? Because someone might be
19:51
listening to thinking, hang on, we've tried something that could
19:53
be replicated across other projects and programmes.
19:56
How should they get in touch? My e-mail address is Joe.
20:00
Dot jolly so J o.j.odoublely@ipa.gov.uk.
20:08
How optimistic are you that project performance would
20:12
improve over the rest of this decade?
20:14
So I'm just thinking about the 2030 kind of road map there and
20:18
what does it success rest on. I am ruthlessly optimistic.
20:25
So I didn't leave the Environment Agency because I
20:27
wanted to leave it. It had become clear to me over
20:30
the years you know what what my values were what my purpose is
20:34
and and for me a life well lived will be that I can say to myself
20:39
I've done the best I can through the work I do for the planet.
20:43
And and remember best isn't I've just tried a bit harder.
20:46
But my my target of best is the fact that Sir David King is
20:50
trying to refreeze the Arctic. That to me is what it looks like
20:53
when you he's just choosing to do that.
20:55
Nobody's making him do that. He's doing it.
20:57
He knows it's the right thing to do.
20:58
So that's what doing your best looks like.
21:00
So I I want to know I've done my best for the planet through the
21:05
work I do. And the reason I'm so motivated
21:07
about it is that I can see that the phenomenal potential the
21:10
project delivery profession has to make a difference, the
21:14
climate emergency is systemic problem.
21:16
It needs a systemic solution. Nothing is more systemic than
21:19
project delivery. So the the prize is you know
21:24
beyond our imagination but obviously we have all this
21:27
evidence that we're not performing as we need to the the
21:30
community as a whole. Project delivery is not
21:32
globally. We know it's not.
21:34
So that that's why I was you know this job came up head of
21:38
project Futures in the IPA and it was advertised on
21:41
sustainability, digital and data and thought leadership and that
21:44
is it in a nutshell that is it. And so I am phenomenally
21:48
optimistic we can do it. It will come down to how
21:54
prepared we are as human beings to overcome our innate
21:59
responses. So we don't respond well to
22:03
risks that are a little bit away.
22:06
But obviously, you know, when we were going to walk out the front
22:08
door and die of a disease, we didn't know COVID.
22:12
We changed overnight. We developed a vaccine in six
22:15
months. So don't tell me we can't do it.
22:18
It's it's that our innate responses to risks and threats
22:24
don't serve us well in a climate emergency.
22:28
But The thing is, we know that, so we can choose to overcome
22:33
those innate human failings. Whether we do or not is up to
22:40
us. I am going to ask you one
22:43
further question that I've thought about since you've been
22:45
talking It's this conflict between long term.
22:49
Good and short term finance or economics.
22:53
So in a commercial environment where you have a project and
22:56
it's dictated by the money, how do you get these environmental
23:03
and social necessary goals into the business case?
23:07
It's an interesting one, Emma, because actually when you look
23:11
there's an awful lot out there. So there's the Social Value Act
23:16
in procurement that was says law that's been around for 10 years.
23:22
When you look at Treasury Green Book, there's an awful lot
23:25
about, you know, social value and and other things.
23:29
So in many ways I, you know my view, I I think we're a mile off
23:36
maximising what's what's there already.
23:39
Yes, I think there's a lot more we can and are doing.
23:43
So yes, you know that that's another part of the system,
23:46
isn't it? What we invest in, what we
23:47
value, how we quantify GDP. Yeah, they're all parts of the
23:52
system. And yes, let's work at those
23:55
two. I couldn't agree more, but do
23:59
not let that. Do not let anybody then fall
24:04
into the trap of Ohh. But then until that's done, it's
24:07
not that much I can do really, you know.
24:09
Of course there is the we are, I I believe we are, you know, 100
24:17
miles off, off, reaching the limit of of what that restricts
24:22
us in doing. If you like, if it costs more,
24:25
then maybe you can't afford to do it.
24:27
But find all the things you can do and actually some things
24:32
might even cost less. But yes, of course of course you
24:35
know and again that's that's a role that that we are going our
24:40
you know as harder as we possibly can around around how
24:43
do we you know that that system of investment and decision
24:47
making and what we value. Yes let's change that as much as
24:52
we possibly can but don't wait for that you know get drives the
24:57
maximum positive value through everything you do right now.
25:00
And also the smart companies are clocking what value will look
25:04
like in the future. Things are changing and again
25:08
you know another thing I I really want to to drive at is
25:11
you know how do we champion those companies who are being
25:14
brave and and maybe you know pooling their data that are
25:18
giving away things for the community are making things
25:21
better beyond their own immediate bottom line because
25:25
they're seeing the greater value in the longer term.
25:27
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for companies making a healthy
25:31
profit. I'm, you know, we need to
25:34
procure better. We need to have healthier
25:37
commercial models. We need to be driving,
25:41
incentivizing and improving industry A, a collaborative
25:46
industry, one that does collaborate and share and
25:49
innovate and improve more, not incentivizing a race to the
25:53
bottom. So you know the leavers are
25:56
everywhere, the leavers are everywhere and we have to go at
26:00
all of them and that is exactly what we're doing through TIP.
26:03
Again just going back to you know the five themes, remember
26:06
did some data leadership and capability environment
26:10
sustainability effectively you know delivery models that's
26:14
where a lot of the commercial stuff comes in and and sort of
26:17
pipelines and productivity. So that's about how you create
26:19
that market capacity to to incentivise great things because
26:24
you've got great examples of of national highways committing to
26:28
low temperature tarmac and then the whole industry scales up
26:31
around it. You've also got examples of
26:33
Pilkington glass building making a load of, you know, better
26:38
energy efficient glass which is slightly more expensive but
26:42
better whole life cost. But then it all being they can't
26:46
sell it, they've got a shed full of it somewhere because then it
26:49
get, it gets whittled away in terms of the upfront cost.
26:51
So you know, it's all of those levers and we've got to get them
26:57
all working, but don't wait for one to do the best with the
27:00
other, if that makes sense. So really it's about maximising
27:04
what we've got already and what you can do already and and then
27:08
that will nudge and push for bigger change exactly.
27:12
And don't underestimate the impact of those sort of small
27:16
signals in a way because that can then nudge a bigger one and
27:20
a bigger one and so it snowballs.
27:22
And that's that's again why we're going at these three month
27:25
sprints. It's not that we haven't got
27:27
some longer term things to do. So that might be in, you know
27:30
the end of the third Sprint because it's going to take nine
27:32
months, not three months, but every three months we're
27:35
demonstrating the progress, the traction, the real change on the
27:39
ground that is happening and we're championing that cause
27:41
it's it's so easy to talk about things.
27:44
There's a lot of talking shops. It's so easy to define the
27:48
problem just a bit better. It's very hard to get some stuff
27:54
done and importantly, to get it done at scale.
27:56
And that's really what we're focusing on.
27:58
And again, that sense of momentum, it feeds itself, Emma,
28:02
doesn't it? Yeah.
28:03
And if any if anyone's going to get stuff done, it's going to be
28:07
a project manager, isn't it? So that's the best people for
28:10
the job. I mean I thank you, we've, you
28:13
know, brilliant insight and real things that people can think
28:18
about and get hold of. And thank you so much.
28:21
Was were there any kind of lost thoughts you wanted to to pass
28:25
on? I mean, I feel like we've
28:26
covered everything. I think it just comes back to
28:29
that, you know, just get started.
28:31
Just get started. If you don't know what to do, do
28:33
something and keep talking. Stay connected, Ask for help.
28:38
There's a whole community here willing to willing to reach out
28:42
and help. Thank you.
28:49
Thanks again to Joe for joining us and thank you for listening
28:52
to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for
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29:07
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29:14
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