Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 392: Andor: Season One - The Eye

Transcript

Issue 392: Andor: Season One - The Eye · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: are listening to Aggressive negotiations.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations. That's right, that slice
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: of Star Wars Heaven that you know you just can't
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: get enough of, and coming at you again live from Aldawnie.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Let's just say the fireworks are about to begin, and
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I am just one of your hosts, Matthew Rushing and
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: with me as he is every single episode, the one
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: the only curmudgeonly, yes, curmudgeoned Jedi Master John Mills Well
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: apparently doesn't like or good shows.
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: He does like trolling you, though, because it's an incredibly
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: easy thing to do, and it is. You know, honestly,
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: it's not easy, but I mean it's feasible, it's it possible.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: It was considered to be one of my Jedi trials,
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: but then I proved how easily I could do it,
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: and Yoda was like, oh, do something harder, you must.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: And here we are, man oh man, Well we're excited
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: to be here. Of course, before we get started, you
• 1:33
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• 1:37
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• 1:55
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• 1:58
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• 2:01
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  Speaker 5: way to grow a podcast. And last, but not least,
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: just thank you for listening. We really appreciate it.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: So John, this season of and Or, you know, we
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: have been building two different parts of the story arc,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: and of course this is kind of the closing bit
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: for this heist that we have on al Donnie with
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: the episode The Eye, and so first and foremost, I
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: just wanted to get your just kind of general oppressions
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: of this episode as we kind of bring this part
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: of the arc to a close.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: Well, that feels like I'm giving away too much of
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: the beginning. I mean, I want people to stick around
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: for the end of the conversation as well. Obviously, Matt,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: It's true. That's that's the thing that makes sense. I
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: went into this episode everybody knows. Everybody, come on, tell
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: me you listen to the last two episodes. You know
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: where I was. You know that I really enjoyed the
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: fourth one, felt there were opportunities for improvement in the
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: second one. Matt and I felt strangely similar about the
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: the the you know, the second part of this arc,
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: and like we we wound up in very similar places.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: It's just I came at it from a different angle,
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: you know, you know which we do, we do it happens. Yeah,
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: So basically I came into this one hopeful because I
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: was like, I remember liking this episode, but I also
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: remembered that there were certain points where I was like,
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: it felt like it could have just been quicker at
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: the end. So I was curious to see if my
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: opinion stayed there, because we all know, I'm I've been
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: really sort of hard on the pacing of the episodes,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: and you know, I also couldn't remember if we spent
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: too much time with Cyril Cyril, Cyril Cereal.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and thankfully he's he's not even in this episode,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: so yeah.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Strangely, it seems to be to the episode's benefit that
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: he wasn't, because the absence of Cyril immediately made the
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: episode better in my opinion. I was like, oh, I agree,
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: I'm not agreeing over to Cyril. Agreece is acceptable to me.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: I will meet this episode on its own terms.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Therefore, Well, so I do want to add so that's
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: a great thing, you know, so you don't end up
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: giving too much away here, But I did want to
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: ask you because this episode is incredibly focused, uh, in
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: the sense that we spend almost the entire episode on Aldanni,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and we are, you know, making everything finally happen, right,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: All that they've been planning for in the last couple
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: of episodes comes to fruition here. We're not going to
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: leave you waiting anymore. And we're also, like I said,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: we're not going to spend time in other places until Bill.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Basically the climax of this major event, this major heist,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: this first incredible movement of the rebellion hits and once
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: that finally happens, then will kind of split over to
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: like mon Mathma and Luthen and get their kind of
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: reactions as they hear this thing that they've been waiting
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: to hear has actually happened. And so, how did you
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: feel like that then worked for the episode, because I
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: know you've been kind of frustrated, as you mentioned, with
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: some of the editing choices, where we've kind of been
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: bouncing around, and this episode, you know, that's one of
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: the things that doesn't do. It does not bounce around.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: It doesn't It's very focused, and I think that it
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: really is to the director is Susannah White here, and
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: I think that she really brings that that focus that
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: I've been looking for. We all know that I've a
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: weak thing about sequels, and I blame George Lucas for
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: this and Steven Spielberg. No, seriously, because if you look
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: at the Star Wars movies, the first six, and you
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: look at the Indiana Jones movies, you don't have to
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: have seen one that came before to get totally what's
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: going on. You know, I'm big about that I should
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: be able to plug.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: It up at any very much about.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: That, and this episode absolutely passes that test. Suzannah White
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: takes the script and the script is very focused. But additionally,
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: this is a show like this is an episode where
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: it's like, we are not going to mess around with
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: what we need to show you, and everything is firing
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: here from the get go toward that one goal, that
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: ending goal. And I think that especially one of the
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: things that it allows it to do that's really to
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: its benefit is it gives the actor's name is Stanley Townsend,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: who plays the commandant. Oh yeah, yeah, that character, the
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: direction and the way that he has worked into the
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: story is beyond exactly right. And that is the little
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: nudge for this episode. And that's what everybody on the
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: crew deserves credit for cast hand crew is Stanley Townsend
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: is given the opportunity to be that sort of an inept,
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: bureaucratic evil that exists in a system like this. Yeah,
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: you can tell that had it been the Republic, had
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: it been the New Republic, had it been the Empire,
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: had it been the yujenn Vong in charge, had it
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: been anybody in charge, this guy was simply this is
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: his job. This is what he's going to do. He
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: doesn't like it anymore than anybody else, but this is
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: the system. He's just he's there, right, I'm just doing
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: my job. Like he's he's not a cruel person. He's
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: a guy who's just like, look, this is just the
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: way the world is. This is what I'm going to do.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: And it really illustrates everything that I think Lucas himself
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: would have been big about, which is the banaloe of evil,
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: that it's easy to exist in a system where you
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: don't think too deeply about what's going on. Sure, and
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: this is my job, this is what I do. You
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: know what. I didn't do anything bad to the chieftain.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: I don't like him. I'm talking bad about him behind
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: closed doors, but I'm not mean to his face. I
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: do what I'm supposed to do. That's fine, that's enough,
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: you know, And it's just it's really I think that
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: the focus is what allows the episode to bring that
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: to the forefront. Yeah, I was.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, because I think that
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: he really is kind of a winchpin character for this series,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: and part.
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: Of that.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Is because of the way in which he brings into
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: focus the very thing that they are fighting against, right
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: which is, like you said, it's not people who are
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: avert evil in the sense that they are you know,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: they're they're just willing and ready to kind of like
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: murder everybody in their path.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: This is the type of person who has such a
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: superiority complex about everybody being less than him. He looks
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: down on these people, right, he, like you said, he's
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: making fun of them. He sees himself as being superior
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: to them in every single way, and so do all
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: of the other officers there. Every single one of them
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: looks on these people and just thinks they're kind of backwater,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: worthless people. To me, that's that. I'm so glad that
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: you brought that up, because it is that type of
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: evil where because of the way in which Palpatine runs
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: the empire, it encourages people to act like this, right,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: which is to get yours and in doing so, you
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: are willing to just step over anyone and step on
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: anyone to get what you want, right. I mean, his
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: whole goal is to get off this backwater planet because
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: he doesn't feel appreciated enough, right, And that's even what
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: he you know. And then he treats his wife and
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: his son kind of the same way he treats everybody else,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: and then he makes them feel bad for saying when
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: he's like don't you want off this planet? You know,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: like it's like you said, it's it's so well performed
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: because he does it so effortlessly that it just kind
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: of makes your skin crawl when as you're watching him.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: But at the same time you get the opportunity to
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: see him as again, he's a guy who just doesn't
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: think about it. No, he doesn't focus, He just thinks
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: about himself. Yes, but that's exactly the trap that everybody
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: in the everyday world falls into. My career, my advancement,
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: the system doesn't work. Who cares. I'm just gonna get mine.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: All I can do is control what's in the world
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: around me to an extent, that is all you can control.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: But then you don't think about the atrocity of the
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: company you're working for, that praise on the innocent, or
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: the chemical waste of the plant that you work at,
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: because what are you going to do about it. You're
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: gonna go up to your boss and get fired, or
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: in the case of a guy in the empire, you're
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: gonna get shot, You're gonna lose your position. Yes, that
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: is exactly how a system supports itself. And you know
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: it's easy to run off and criticize any system like that.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: But we know what's powering the empire. We know that
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: basically Satan himself is at the top of this chain.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly.
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: But this guy isn't thinking about that. He's not, he doesn't.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: He's never going to meet the Emperor. He doesn't know
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: what's going on. Nope, he doesn't care. He just wants
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: to get off.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: And the thing is, it creates a really thoughtful piece
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: to the episode, up to and including the point where
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: the guy suddenly realizes that his trusted lieutenant has betrayed
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: him and he has a heart attack. It's just it's
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: it's too much for him because this is just not
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: what he signed up for. He didn't ye, he didn't
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: commit the specific a trial. The system did it. What
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: am I going to do about it? And the thing is,
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: there's an interesting contrast because Richard Katz, who plays the colonel,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: he is the guy who is all like. He does
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: a really good job of subtly playing the guy who
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: is all in on it, who gets it like. It's
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: hard to describe because he doesn't have a lot of
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: screen time, but the fact that he pulls the gun
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: he's in on hi yah, right. The Commandant's like, I
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: just hey, guys, leave me alone. I don't know what
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: I'm doing here, you know, I just work here. What
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: are you doing? The colonel is the one that's like,
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: I'll kill all of you, even though he knows it's
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: dumb to try to pull that gun. It's the idiots
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: maneuver right there. And so yeah, I mean I think
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: that is, in all honesty, what elevates the episode. It's
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: very easy for people to say, oh, well, the I
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: or the chieftain played great by David Hayman, you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: the chieftain is what elevates it, or the effects or
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: the escape or the heist or anything like that. No,
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: it's these two characters are what elevates this episode.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Well in talking about them, and I'm so glad that
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: you kind of like keyed in to them in this
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: part of the episode, because the thing I was really
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: really struck by was the conversation that the commandant and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: he are having, and the commandant and this engineer who
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: are visiting, and he's describing the way in which they
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: are slowly and methodically taking away everything from these people
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: without them even realizing that it's happening.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: To them, right, And.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: What it showed me is the way in which the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Empire has slowly but surely been taking away people's desire
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: for religion and replacing it with dependence on the state.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, right, terrifying.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely terrifying. I mean, And what I find to be
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: so incredible about this is that you think about the
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: depth here then that Lucas's universe is allowing these writers
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: to be able to talk about here. It's something that
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: we've seen play out, I mean, and Gilroy talked about
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: this in a recent interview, you know, He's like, look,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I don't want this show to be something that anybody goes, Oh,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: so that's this in our current political world. He's like,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I'm rooting this in massive historical movements from history, you know,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: from ancient history, the same way that Lucas was right exactly.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: But when you think about that idea, right, is that
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: in our most in the most recent history that we've seen,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: what are the countries that have done this? They have
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: tried to remove everything from a person but complete dependence
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: on the state. And it's kind of a terrifying thing.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And so I absolutely love that that is what this
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: episode is doing. I think it's incredibly smart. The beauty
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of that, though, was that I was realizing that this
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: episode was that then microcosm of the macro that's been
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: happening now for what this is almost fifteen years of
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: the Empire, and this has been their modus operandi in
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: every single planet.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: But the important thing to remember is that the Republic
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: put all of this machinery in place. It's just the
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Emperor knew how to use it. He spent all that
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: time as Supreme Chancellor. Understand he understood the system, he
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: knew how to manipulate it, and he knew also how
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: to pass rules, regulations, laws, what have you. That made
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: it so that he could leverage it even more. And
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: I think that this is what this is what winds
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: up being frustrating in this sense. I'm not being a
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: negative Nelly here, but this is the sort of thing
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: where if I had enjoyed that first three episode arc more,
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: I know they were going for tying it together, where
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: it's like the Republic was full of a bunch of
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: bad operators as well, people who were of similar ilk
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: to this commandant and this kernel. They're they're not unique,
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: it's just a different system. They're the same guys. Though,
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: when whenever you get a large enough system in place,
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: people like this are there and it's it's I'm going
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: to mangle it. I forget who it was that said
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: it specifically, but it was one of the founders founding
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: Fathers quote unquote of America and it was a system
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: is only as good as the people that are in it,
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: or something like that. And the thing is it underlines
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: that people get caught up debating the systems, but it's
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: really the people inside them that make it tolerable or intolerable.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: And I know I have enough of a memory of
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: the next arc to know that that really gets underlined
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: in how insidious it really is. Yes, the way that
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: the system gets leveraged by people who want to manipulate
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: it or want to go on a power trip.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: And is this system really any different than the Republic?
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: How is it different than the Republic? I think that's
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: a fascinating sort of thing to study and look at,
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: and that gets that timelessness as well well.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And and I think you can see the manipulation of
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: the system in the sense of creating you know, the
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Republic begins as a representational government for planets, to send
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: representatives to so they're representing actual people, right. Uh. You know,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: the then the big change then comes in in this
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: system is when you allow then corporations to be represented.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: They don't represent people, they're representing a business. And so
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: you're tying like this idea of of the state and
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: business in a way that is obviously incredibly dangerous. And
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: and so I think that's also a real key uh
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that we get here. And and so yeah, I mean
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: I think you know, your point is really well made
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: in the sense that the Emperor rights has just utilized
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: all the things that were already in place, and he
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: has just continued to tweak them further and further to
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: his advantage.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: Well, the thing that's really great is you and I
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: we spent nearly four hundred episodes by this point talking.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: About Star Wars Hard, which is crazy.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: Where did the time go? But we're sitting here, we're
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: talking about this, and what's fascinating is is this is
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: one of those moments in Star Wars, this episode in particular,
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: that's great because the Emperor really doesn't he doesn't care
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: about the particulars here. The Emperor himself is not directing
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: wipe out the Aldani. It just creates more evil and
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: sadness in the galaxy, which feeds the dark side. Cool, right,
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: He's not sitting there. He doesn't have to direct it
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: to happen. It's just what happens feeds the dark side,
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: gives more power, gives more opportunity for him to worry
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: about the things that he really does worry about. Cheating death,
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: living forever, exerting his will on everything. That's all he
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: cares about. Now that those are big things to care about.
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: And he's a bad dude, but he's not a micromanager.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: And that's the horrifying thing is he doesn't need to micromanage.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: But yep. Conversely, what I want to ask you is,
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: we know that a lot of this is payoff of
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: the build up from the previous two episodes. We've got
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: our big heist episode. Is there anything about this episode
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: that doesn't work for you? What does not work for you?
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: What could have been tightened up, what could have been removed,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: what could have been reorganized? What doesn't work for you here?
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I mean not not to just be the fanboy, but
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I I don't really think there's anything that doesn't work
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: for me here. And a big part of that is
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: is what we've kind of talked about in the sense
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: that what makes this truly an interesting episode is that,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: you know, we didn't just focus on on the heist
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: and uh and and and those machinations. What we focused on,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: which made it even more interesting, was these imperial officers
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: and their attitude towards these people, which clues us in
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: to the very thing to which you know, as as
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: we talked about in the last episode, you know, we
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: get this this idea that everybody has their own rebellion
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: and they're all fighting the rebellion for different reasons. And
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: in that, you know, we've seen this kind of growing
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: sense then in different characters, specifically the character of and
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Or right like this this whole show is about building
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: him into the character that we will see in Rogue one.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: And so what is it about his experience that's going
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: to lead him to want to join this rebellion? And
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I think those experiences, even though he doesn't get, you know,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: a first hand view of what happened don Ald Donnie
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: in the sense of the way that the Empire is
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: treating these people, he's very well aware of that's what's
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: happening to these people. Because that's what happened to him
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: in his planet, right, right, And so again I think
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: what they do is that they kind of help continue
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: to drive home the point that they were making in
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: those first few episodes with with and or in his
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: time on Knari, And so I I don't I don't know. Again,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I really just can't think of anything that didn't work
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: for me, because you know, as we've you know, and
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I know you had frustration with you know, some of
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: the pacing and some of that stuff with with these
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: episodes and felt like we could have been tighter here,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: you know, But this just I mean, this kind of
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like the story, they know exactly what they
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: wanted to do, they knew exactly what needed to happen
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: in this episode, and then they just do it and
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: there isn't any extraneous material. And so I don't know,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: do was there anything that you like? Because you can
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: be more critical on that on that side, was there
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: anything that didn't work for you?
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: I'm going to talk about two things really real quick.
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: I don't want to belabor any points here and it's
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: not going to go the way everybody thing's here in
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: the audience. Sorry, So just just settle down, put your
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: pitch fork.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: So you're saying, this is okay, Okay, this isn't this
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: isn't the last Jedi.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: Okay. I was just making sure anyway. Two things. One
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: is a thing where I wound up like strangely in
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: my brain praising it for the fact that it would
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: have been so easy. And this is such a maybe
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: it's a weird thing. But when Vell and kaz Or
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: Santa Stay are in their little rock hideout and the
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: troopers come walking by, and one of the troopers stops
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: to take a leak near them, this is where I'll
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: give the director. I don't know how the script was,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: but you know, writing and directing go hand in hand.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: But Susannah White, it would have been so easy for
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: a director to make it disgusting and have him relieve
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: himself in such a way that it like we see
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: it leak on one of them and they have to
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: be quiet. I applaud the show for not going down
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: that route. It would have been so easy. There are
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: so many shows that would have indulged that disgusting nature.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: Are glad. Number two the thing that I that I
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: struggled with a little bit at the end. Both times.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: But I think I've come to a place where I'm
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: okay with it, and I get it is Skeen finding
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: out Skeen's actually a schev as opposed to a skin
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: and and Or shoots him. And where I come to
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: it with and I want to get your thoughts on
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: it as we wrap up, right, is I want to
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: get your thoughts on it as we wrap up. Is
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: that it's important for him to suddenly reveal himself to
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: be an untrustworthy character because and Or Cassian, reacting as
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: quickly and decisively as he does to shoot him, demonstrates
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: that he has a limit to his a morality that
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: he is, He's less a moral than he'd like to
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: tell himself. There's still a code of honor for him.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: And while it's unsettling that he shoots Skein the way
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: that he does, it is absolutely necessary. He's the guy
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that's sitting there. He knows he can't talk Skeen out
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: of it. He knows that if he doesn't move, then
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: Skein's going to shoot him. Yeah, and so Cassian shot
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: first to tap into another third rail in Star Wars discussion. Yes,
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: and that's sort of where I come to is like,
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: I think it's actually a nice character building moment for
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: Cassian because he is we established there's a limit to
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: how far he'll go. Now, does he violate that in
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: Rogue one? Therefore, I don't.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Well, so I was gonna I was gonna ask you
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: that question because I know that in Rogue one, one
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: of the things that you kind of have an issue
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: with is that moment where he shoots the guy at
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: the beginning, right, and this was a way to reinforce that.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: And Or, like you said, is less a moral than
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: he would like to hope he could be, because you know,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: he doesn't want to really care about anybody, but he
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: can't help himself, which is in some ways it's like
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the more gritty version of the Han solo arc. Yeah,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: and yet at the same time too, what I think
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that this does is that shows us and Or's predilection
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: for making sure that the mission goes forth with whatever
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: means necessary. And if it means that I do need
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to kill somebody who's going to get in the way
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: of that or jeopardize that mission, I'm gonna have to
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: be okay with that, Which is then you know, when
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: he gives the speech to to jin about like you
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: have no idea what I've given for this, which is
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: what also plays into a very important speech we will
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: get at the at the end of season one that
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: comes from Luthen as well. And so what we're doing
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: here is we're building this character who, much like Luthan,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: is going to be somebody who is willing to sacrifice
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: his own self.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: For this.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: And and that's where I kind of come down on
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: that scene with with Skin is that it's kind of
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: reinforcing a character trait that he's just going to continue
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: to build, but that that character trait is going to
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: be one to which he utilizes for I guess you
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: could call it, for lack of a better term, really
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: the greater good.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if that if that it makes
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: sense at.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: All or yeah, I you know, I I totally plug
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: into what you're saying, Like I think that there there
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: is truth to that, specifically because he is in a
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: position at the end of the episode to take everything
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: and instead he says, I just I just want what
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: you promised me and then I'm out and I'm not
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: gonna I'm not gonna take you for all, you know,
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: having much money at what eighty million, not gonna do
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: that to you? Totally fine, just give me what I'm
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: owed and a ship. And he even he's gonna pay
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: the doctor for his ship. He's like, I'll pay you
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: more than that. It's even worth. So yeah, it's it's
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: I think it winds up being a nice thing. I
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: I felt a little cheated at first. I remember the
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: first time I saw it, I was like, oh, why'd
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: you do that? That that that character having that twist
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: at the end of the episode. I didn't care for it.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: I was like, that felt forced. But then I realized
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: that it did serve the larger character arc, So I'm
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: okay with it. And I think that that is sort
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: of the thing that I had the biggest problem with
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: the first time. Sure I did not, and I know
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: it's the nature of it, but maybe it's more about
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: the fact that I wind up caring about the character.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: But the fact that they decided to kill the idealist
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: caris what was his name, The fact that they decided
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: to have him killed in such a cheap way it
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: bothered me. I didn't like it. I would have liked
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: to see that kid survive. To the point where Cassian
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: shoots Skeme, and then the kid can say something as
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: he's walking out the doors. Like I knew it. I
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: know that there's you know, like it just it felt
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: like killing both Scheme and Keris was unnecessary to have
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: him both. I I I get it. I know it's
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: the nature of the beast, but you know, I just
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: I just wish they hadn't knocked him off, knocked off
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: both of them.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I can one hundred percent understand
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: what you're saying, And mainly because I agree with you,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I really enjoy that character. I think, you know, he's
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: a really interesting character.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: And it's more interesting than Cyril.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I think part of that is is that
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: you know, what he drives at is is just this
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: this idea of the philosophy of rebellion and really digging
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: into that is incredibly interesting to me. And I agree,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I wish we had, you know, more of it. I
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: think it would just be nice if if he got
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: more of a chance to kind of help expound on
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: on these ideas. And yet, you know, his death is
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: and I think you even mentioned this idea, right, his
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: death is one of the things that's going to I
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: think affect and or right, especially when you know he's
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: handed the manifesto and he's forced to take it. He
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: doesn't want it, and yet Kars knows that if it
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: sits with him long enough, he's not going to be
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: able to sit this out forever. And and and so
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I love that moment. I think it's uh,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: like you said, it's it's it's what makes his death
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: so ridiculously bittersweet in the episode, because you really like
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: this character. And yet you know, I also just love
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: the way in which then fell is like, no, you
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: take this. He wanted you to have it, he insisted,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: and so if you're gonna leave, you've got to take
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: this with you too. And so yeah, I mean it's
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: one of those things too. It sounds like then for
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: you this might be Is this your favorite episode of
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: the series so far?
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: Probably yeah, I'd say that. I'd say that's safe. Yeah,
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: this is my favorite one of the series so far.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: I think that great direction, well written, and even the
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: cherryo at the cherry on top for me is getting
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: to see the galactic Senate again and see how the
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: senators don't really care what's going on. I'm like, oh yeay,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: I love this chamber. But like I said, I've always
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: been a geek for the the political stuff. But I
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: do like the fact that it ends with Luthen excusing
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: himself to the back where he can laugh yeah and
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: and just be happy about what happened. I think that
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: that's the little cherry on the episode that that works
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: really well. So hands down my favorite. Is it your
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: favorite episode so far the season?
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I think absolutely, And and that's not because and this
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: is not a detriment to any of the other episodes
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I think in the in the season. I think, honestly,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: you know, for me, unlike you, this has been a
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: great season of a show so far, you know, I've
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: really enjoyed I think. I think what this became though,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: is that this episode just and and part of this too.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: It's like this episode here is really the culmination of
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: the whole first six episodes, right, and so it's almost
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: like a mid season finale, and they really I think,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: nail it, right. I think they they just make you like,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: they bring home everything that they were doing and it
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: it feels incredibly fulfilling.
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: I get to the end of this episode and it's like, oh,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: this is what we've been doing the whole time. This
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: is where we've been building through it, and so I
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: really like that, and I'm glad that, you know, it
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: worked for both of us, and and I'm you know,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: I'm hopeful then that as we move forward, that'll just
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: continue to happen for both of us. But John, if
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: you know, people wanted to catch up with you and
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: see what else got going on and maybe even just
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about and or here and and
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: you know their thoughts on things, where would they find you?
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, for the time being, when we're recording
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: this episode, I'm taking a break from social media, so
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: you can find me a kessel Junki dot com tossing
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: stuff around. Would be fun. Go look through the archives.
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: I probably said something controversial in the past. Knock yourself out,
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: look for it. Try to take me offline. I invite it.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I don't care. You can also find me here on
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: the network co hosting a show called house Lights with
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: Tristan Riddell and Darren Moser, where we look at the
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: work of directors we have. We have a time. It's
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of fun. Recommend you go check it out.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: But I also spend some time over on the TFM
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: Network on a little show called The six oh two Club.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: Every so often I do a pull a guest spot
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: over there. It's the birthplace of aggressive negotiations technically, and Matt,
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: I think that's where people can finde you. So where
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: else can they find you? Out there? Online?
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope everybody will. We'll check that out. That'd
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: be great. But you can find me all over social media,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: the named Matt Rushing zero too. I'm also here on
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: the network with a show called Outpost every single chapter
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: of the Harry Potter series, one chapter at a time.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: You can also find me over on the TFM network.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Like John mentioned, I appreciate that I am, of course
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: on the six oh two Club, but I've got a
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: lot of other great shows over there, a lot of
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: great star trek talk with my friend Chris Jones, as
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: we're digging into a lot of those anniversary rewatches for
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: the different shows that have had anniversaries recently in the
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: last few years. So please check that out. But John, Goodness,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: I think it's a Nerfsteak night over at the Jedi Temple.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: So I think it's time we close these negotiations.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Oh Man, With a couple of jahwa juice, that is
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: a perfect evening. So master rushing negotiations are
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: No Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.