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From project to programme management: how to make the move successfully · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM. Podcast APM is the childhood
0:11
body for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:19
in this. Podcast I'm speaking to.
0:21
Suzanne Morland, Vice President of the Global Programme
0:24
Management Practise at ACOM about how to step up from being
0:27
a project manager to a programme manager.
0:31
Suzanne draws on her vast experience of leading mega
0:33
projects and shares her behind the scenes lessons from working
0:37
on some truly mind blowing programmes.
0:39
If you're thinking of entering the world of programme
0:41
management or want to hone your skills and learn from the best,
0:44
then listen on. Hi, Suzanne.
0:51
Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me.
0:53
I think a good place to start would be to ask you to tell us a
0:56
little bit about your career and your experience, specifically
1:00
going from being a project manager to becoming a programme
1:04
manager. Sure.
1:06
Back in too long ago to remember to mention, I was the director
1:12
of project delivery for a company called Chapter 2 M Hill
1:16
and I had several project teams who were delivering
1:20
infrastructure in water, environmental cleanup,
1:25
transportation. And I had an opportunity, I was
1:29
invited to go to the country of Panama to help them figure out
1:35
how they were going to expand the Panama Canal.
1:39
And that it's really during that experience that I got the bug.
1:44
I, I was bitten by what a programme can be, what it
1:49
offers, what it means to a community, what it means to a
1:52
country and, and delivering things differently from an
1:57
individual project. It's, it really is a, it's such
2:02
a different opportunity to bring benefits and to, to make
2:08
something more than just the asset that's being built to
2:12
provide those opportunities to the community, to the country,
2:16
to, to the people involved in delivering it.
2:19
So it's really the kind of big picture that you liked, bringing
2:22
benefits to society more broadly.
2:25
Yes, yes. And, and the challenge that, you
2:28
know, there's a, a different challenge in, in putting that
2:32
bigger puzzle together and making sure that you're on a
2:36
project. And we'll probably talk about
2:37
this more, but on a project you're really driving cost,
2:41
scope and schedule and delivering that safely.
2:45
And on a programme you are figuring out how to deliver all
2:48
of those individual scopes within a budget, on time, safely
2:54
and delivering those with the benefits, with the additional
2:59
benefits that come from how you put that together.
3:03
So that obviously that's what you enjoy.
3:05
It's the complexity and fitting the bits of the puzzle together.
3:09
Is that what, what aspects of the job do you enjoy the most?
3:12
Is it figuring out that side of things or is it seeing the
3:15
benefits? For me, really it's about
3:19
figuring out how that's going to happen and then building in the
3:23
the benefits delivery in a way that makes it integral.
3:27
So when when the leaders are looking at how things change,
3:32
how is this going to affect cost and how is this going to affect
3:36
the schedule? They also asked the question,
3:39
how is this going to affect our delivery of benefits or our
3:42
ability to deliver benefits and take that into consideration.
3:46
So it's it's built into the whole framework of how you're
3:50
delivering a programme. Can you tell us a bit more about
3:53
the Panama expansion programme? When was this?
3:56
How long ago did you work on this?
3:58
I went to Panama the first time in 2007 for a year, 18 months
4:04
it. That was early in the industry
4:08
of infrastructure programme management, what's also referred
4:11
to as mega projects. It was when that really became a
4:16
recognised delivery mechanism. London 2012 was one of the first
4:21
programme delivery structures. Panama Canal followed very
4:26
closely or actually was kind of in parallel at the same time as
4:30
that can. You give an idea a bit about the
4:32
programme and how much, what was the scope, what was it worth?
4:35
And if this is an early mega project, did you follow a
4:39
framework? Did you create your own
4:41
framework as you went along or did you borrow from other large
4:44
projects? Or?
4:45
I'd be curious because it must have felt like uncharted water.
4:49
Sorry for the analogy. It's OK.
4:52
It's OK. It really did it.
4:54
It really did feel and actually was unchartered at the time.
4:58
It was in 2007. And so if you think about 2007
5:02
and where we were with technology, it's very different
5:05
than where we are with technology today.
5:08
So we went to Panama and it hadn't been, there hadn't been
5:13
much time between the US Army Corps of Engineers turning the
5:19
Panama Canal back over to the Panamanians.
5:22
The US Army Corps of Engineers have been running the Panama
5:24
Canal since it had been built and they were, they were turning
5:28
it over to the Panamanians and the Panamanians wanted to put in
5:34
a new lock that was large enough.
5:37
If you think about the the ships, the container ships, up
5:40
until then, ships had been built to fit the Panama Canal because
5:45
it was a main shipping channel. They needed to be larger and so
5:49
they needed a larger channel. The Panama Canal expansion was
5:52
the largest earth moving earthworks project of its kind
5:56
in the history of the world. I'm not sure there's been a
5:58
larger one. There might have been in Dubai
6:00
when they were building the islands, but but they moved,
6:04
they created a lake, created a mountain, they moved that much
6:08
earth to build this canal. And it's, it spans from the
6:12
Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean parallel to the other
6:16
canals, but it's larger than the other canals to fit these what
6:20
are called post Panamax ships. So the other ones were Panamax
6:25
maximum size to fit through the Panama Canal.
6:27
And then they have now the larger ships which are called
6:30
post Panamax that fit the new canal.
6:33
So it's a huge programme, you know, even even for a developed
6:40
and mature programme, if we'd, you know, the UK has by far the
6:44
most mature programme management structure in the world.
6:49
But even if we were going into the UK to build this kind of a
6:54
canal, it would have been a huge undertaking.
6:58
But for Panama, they had been working of course on the running
7:04
the canal, but they hadn't been leading it, they hadn't been
7:06
owning it, they hadn't been managing it and they wanted to
7:09
be able to manage their own programmes in the future.
7:11
So we had as one of the main benefits going in that we would
7:16
teach the Panamanians how to manage their their own
7:19
programmes and their own infrastructure in the future.
7:22
We didn't know. So we were learning and teaching
7:26
all at the same time. How successful was the
7:29
programme? It, it was extremely successful.
7:33
It was the lowest claims of any major construction project.
7:40
It was set up and the contracts were, were written, they were
7:45
complete and concise. And then everything that was
7:49
said, you know, it was detailed out in those contracts was
7:52
followed by the Panamanians. So we put the structures in
7:56
place for them to make sure that they understood every single day
8:00
at every single construction site what was going on and they
8:03
documented it. And think about it was before
8:06
there was anything like Bluetooth, there was anything
8:09
like connectivity. You couldn't get documents
8:14
electronically from the canal up to the office.
8:18
We had to have runners out picking up the the daily logs
8:22
out from each other construction sites, yes.
8:25
Did it come in on budget? On time.
8:27
Well, that's kind of an interesting topic because for a
8:31
programme of this size, it's impossible to know when you're
8:35
starting what it's going to cost.
8:38
And so there's this whole theory that says over time, over
8:43
budget, over and over again. But if you measure against the
8:47
first estimate, you will be over cost and over time because you
8:52
just don't know enough at that at that point to have that as
8:55
your as your goal post. So it came in within the budget
9:00
that was forecast when the contract went out to the EPC
9:05
contractor with the the additional contingency that was
9:12
added once we knew all of the factors.
9:15
So probably midway into construction, the budget was
9:19
recast and because we knew enough then, right to say this
9:24
is what it's actually going to cost.
9:26
And it's also why claims were so low was because we understood we
9:30
didn't know enough at the beginning and we put in the
9:34
structures to to adapt as we went along.
9:37
What an interesting programme to work on.
9:39
So that was your first kind of proper programme management
9:42
experience. How long did you spend on that,
9:45
working on that? I was there the first, the first
9:49
phase that I was there was about 18 months.
9:51
I left for four or five months, went back and helped set up the
9:58
controls, the computer construction control system,
10:02
which I just talked about a minute ago.
10:04
And I was there, I don't know, eight months a year for that.
10:10
And I left and I went back again in 2015 for another six months,
10:16
I think. So you got hooked into programme
10:20
management then what? What, what did you take away?
10:23
If there was one lesson to take away from working on that mega
10:26
project, what, what would it be? I'm kind of digressing a bit,
10:29
but this is such an interesting programme to talk to you about.
10:33
It's if you, if you, if you could give one kind of piece of
10:37
advice or one lesson that you took away from that personally,
10:40
what what would that be? Well, I guess it's two things.
10:44
One that one is it was my first experience really outside of my
10:50
home culture and it really was eye opening learning that people
10:57
are people wherever, wherever you meet them, they're just
11:01
people. They have the same hopes and
11:03
dreams and you know, they're concerned about their families
11:06
and and getting through the day and coming to work and doing a
11:09
good job. So that was, you know, that was
11:11
very interesting and and personally insightful for me.
11:15
The other thing is kind of related is that programmes are
11:18
about people. And really the difference
11:21
between a programme and a project is a project is focused
11:25
on driving schedule and budget to, you know, safely deliver a
11:31
scope within budget and and to the schedule.
11:35
And a programme is really about how you organise people, the
11:41
people who work on it, the stakeholders, the funders, the
11:44
sponsors, how you get all of those people to work together,
11:48
to share a common vision and to to understand and feel like and
11:52
to know that they are part of something bigger and, and to
11:56
really engage with people in that way.
11:59
What have you learned about achieving that?
12:02
The people side of things to get everyone to work together to a
12:05
common vision and goal. That it starts with leaders and
12:09
I think that's that's a very common well known management
12:15
tenant is or leadership tenant, organisational tenant is that
12:20
you have to have leaders aligned and engaged and and championing
12:27
the kind of culture that that you want and that you need.
12:30
How do you make that happen in practise?
12:32
That's that's easy. Easier said than done, I
12:34
imagine. It is the, the, the way we do it
12:39
and the way that I've done it on programmes and you know, it's
12:44
trial and error. You, you work, work one way and
12:47
then something works if something works better than
12:50
something else. But it really is about, about
12:53
transparency. It's about being confident and
12:58
humble. It's about, you know, starting
13:00
out with the, the client organisations leader, programme
13:05
leader and their leadership organisation and making sure
13:09
that they are aligned and with that, that we are aligned with
13:14
what they are hoping to achieve. So we come in as the client
13:18
organisation, as a, as supporting the client
13:21
organisation. We're the, the consultant and we
13:25
need to understand what, what their vision is, what it is
13:29
they're trying to achieve. And then we need to help them
13:32
get there. So it's it's really how we start
13:36
that relationship, build that relationship and nurture that
13:39
relationship over time that makes all the difference.
13:42
How do you set off on the right foot?
13:45
How do you start a programme as a programme manager?
13:49
The best it can be. Well, I think there are three
13:53
things that need to happen. First, the first week that we
13:57
show up, we have a meeting with the client where we talk about
14:01
this is what was what we wrote in the proposal and hear the
14:05
client tell us what that meant to them.
14:08
So that we make sure that we have a common understanding of
14:12
what we said we were going to do, what they think we said we
14:15
were going to do. And then we talked about what
14:18
needs to happen in the next 6090 days to make sure that we hold
14:24
these two organisations or three organisations together so that
14:29
we now have one programme organisation.
14:32
And what what is that going to take?
14:33
What does that look like? Who are we going to work with on
14:36
the clients organisation? Who are the key stakeholders we
14:38
need to bring into these conversations?
14:41
And then we talked about these are the kinds of tools that we
14:43
need. We need to know who's making
14:46
decisions, who has authority to make decisions, what kind of
14:50
regulations, boundary, what we can do.
14:53
Like what are the laws, what are the rules, where are the funds
14:56
coming from and what can we spend that money on so that as
14:59
leaders we are all very clear about how this organisation will
15:04
run. And then we start working with
15:07
the different parts of the clients organisation, like their
15:11
finance group will work with our controls group to talk about how
15:16
what needs to be done, who's doing what, what are the
15:18
handoffs, what does that work look like?
15:20
And, and it's really a methodical step through of
15:24
putting up, putting those two organisations, we call it
15:27
zippering those organisations together.
15:29
And it really is a structured approach that if you miss those
15:34
steps, you will do that. At some point, those
15:36
relationships have to exist, those people have to work
15:39
together. So it'll either be done in this,
15:43
you know, in this upfront and and structured manner, or it'll
15:48
be done trying to clear up chaos later on.
15:52
OK, that's such a good point. The words that are coming
15:55
through to me is you talk about communication, relationships,
15:58
talking. So my, my next question was, how
16:01
does your role change when you leap from being a project
16:05
manager to becoming a programme manager?
16:06
And it seems evident to me that it's about, it's about the
16:09
people, like you said, it's about.
16:11
Is that the biggest difference really?
16:14
The biggest difference is about the relationships with people
16:18
and about your focus. So again, as a project manager
16:21
you are really focused on delivering a scope of work.
16:24
You need to have good people skills as a project manager
16:27
because you've got all of those people who are delivering for
16:29
you or with you as a programme manager.
16:33
It's a whole different field of play.
16:36
You've got stakeholders at every level, the people who are
16:39
funding the programme, the people who have authorised the
16:42
programme, the people who own the assets, the the the supply
16:47
chain, the people working on the programme.
16:50
You've got all of those people that you need to engage with and
16:54
bring them into a common understanding of the vision and
16:59
what needs to be achieved. And as a project manager, very
17:02
often you are focused on what is, what is the, what's
17:05
happening the next day, the next week on that schedule.
17:08
As a programme manager, you are focused on how are we
17:11
progressing for that ultimate outcome.
17:14
And of course, you look at the schedule, you look at the cost,
17:16
you pay attention to those things, but it's with an eye to
17:20
are they taking us to that vision?
17:23
We're APM, the only charter membership organisation for the
17:27
project profession. When you become an APM member,
17:31
you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an
17:33
impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
17:37
Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
17:40
your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you
17:43
reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.
17:48
Because when projects succeed, society benefits.
17:54
As a programme leader, what kind of skills do you need to
17:57
cultivate? I, I think the biggest one is
18:03
strategic thinking. You need to be able to see that
18:06
broader field of play and you need to be able to challenge,
18:11
you know, things that are coming in and understand where pieces
18:15
fit into the larger puzzle. Or if they don't fit, understand
18:19
how to move them off and out, you know, so they're not
18:23
distracting the, the work that needs to happen as a, as a
18:27
project manager, there's a lot more doing a lot more, you know,
18:32
roll up your sleeves and get in there and make sure that, that
18:36
things have been ordered and that, you know, you've got the
18:39
right people showing up on the job site.
18:41
And, and, and you know, the, the safety tailgate have, has, has
18:46
been conducted and, and that you've, you know, gotten the
18:49
permits. As a programme manager, you need
18:53
to be an extremely effective delegator.
18:56
You need to make sure that your team knows what needs to be
19:01
done, the outcomes that you're trying to achieve.
19:04
And then you need to get out of the way.
19:06
You need to coach, cheerlead, you know, motivate, but really
19:11
you're, you're responsible for building and, and facilitating
19:14
and fostering the culture that keeps that work moving forward,
19:20
keeps people engaged and keeps you all focused on that ultimate
19:24
outcome and the benefits that come with it.
19:27
Is that quite hard to do? If you've come from that very
19:30
detailed kind of project manager role, then being able to
19:33
delegate often perhaps with people you've never worked with
19:36
before? Have you got any advice around
19:38
that? Did you find that hard, or was
19:40
that something that came to you naturally?
19:43
I don't think I ever really thought about it.
19:44
I just, I was so moved by the potential that that programmes
19:49
bring that I, you know, it, for me, it felt like coming home.
19:55
I see some people really struggle with, with giving up
20:00
control. I see some people not
20:03
comfortable counselling clients, You know, the, the, the
20:08
difference, you know. Project manager is given a scope
20:11
of work. A programme manager helps figure
20:14
out what that what the scopes of work need to be and how those
20:19
different projects can best be put together and defined and
20:23
what those scopes of work are going to be.
20:26
And then how to bring people in, you know, who are the right
20:29
people to do that work? Is it local contractors?
20:32
Is it a big EPC firm? How is this, you know, something
20:36
in between those two and that so that the difference between the
20:40
certainty of being given a scope and the ambiguity of I know we
20:46
need to do this, how do we get it done?
20:49
People do struggle with that. Is that something you can pick
20:52
up, I guess as your confidence improves or is that just the way
20:56
you are as an individual? You either like it or you don't
20:58
relish it. Well, I, I think there's some of
21:01
both. You can pick it up and you will
21:05
get more confident as you begin making decisions and
21:09
understanding that, you know, I, I often say to people, the sun
21:13
is still going to rise in the East.
21:15
It's just, you know, it's not going to change the outcome of
21:17
your life. It's, you know, it's make a
21:19
decision. If you need to change the
21:21
decision, you can, right. So there, there are very few
21:25
decisions that, that you, you can't come back from, but the
21:29
ability to make a decision, the ability and the humility to say,
21:33
looks like we need to re, you know, reassess that decision
21:38
are, are two big pieces. And some people just are not
21:41
confident enough to make those decisions and and then be able
21:46
to say I think we need to change course.
21:50
What advice would you give around decision making?
21:53
Would you consult lots of people, go I think about it,
21:57
come back or how do you approach it?
22:00
I think it depends on the decision.
22:02
You know, there are some decisions that you need to make
22:04
now that you know, if you've got some supplies coming in and the
22:10
port has gone on strike, what do you do?
22:12
You need to make that decision right now.
22:14
You've got longer lead decisions where you can take in more
22:19
information and you can assess situations and look at your
22:23
options, consult a lot of people.
22:25
The thing is you set those structures up ahead of time so
22:30
you're not trying to figure out how to make decisions.
22:32
You've got the frameworks, you know who you're consulting on
22:35
which just different decisions. We call that a racy, right?
22:39
Who's responsible, who's accountable, who gets consulted
22:42
and who just gets told. So you're not going around
22:45
getting everyone's opinion. There are people who are who,
22:49
you know, you need to consult on particular decisions.
22:52
And then there are people you just let them know this is the
22:54
decision and things need to get implemented.
22:57
But I think those are the things that that's, you know, setting
23:01
up those structures, especially for somebody who's new into
23:05
being a programme manager, it's critical so that you have a
23:09
structure and a framework and support for what you need to do.
23:13
You don't need to figure it out for every different decision.
23:17
What are the most common mistakes do you think new
23:20
programme managers make and how do you go about avoiding them in
23:24
my? Experience The first biggest
23:26
mistake new programme managers make is they get right into
23:32
delivery, they get a programme assignment and they start doing
23:35
what they know. Let's get those projects, let's
23:38
get, you know, let's get those projects moving and well, the
23:42
programme is clearly a bunch of projects.
23:45
A programme is an organisation to deliver those projects.
23:50
So you've got to build that organisation and you have to
23:52
take the time to build those relationships with the client,
23:55
with the client's organisation. Set the framework in place.
23:59
You can't pull a a plan to manage a programme from
24:03
something you've done before and say it's going to work here
24:06
because they're all different. You can take the framework and
24:09
say this is how we structure it, but you can't pull the plan
24:13
forward. I wondered if you are preparing
24:17
to become a programme manager or you're early on in your career
24:21
as a programme manager. How much thought should you give
24:24
to leadership about your style, your approach?
24:28
Is it worthwhile thinking about what kind of leader you want to
24:31
be before you embark on a role like this?
24:34
And what kind of leader are you? I think that emotional maturity
24:39
is a critical factor and you can only be emotionally mature if
24:48
you understand yourself and you can only understand yourself if
24:52
you do that that work. You read about leadership, make
24:57
decisions, conscious decisions about how you want to lead and
25:01
then practise those. You are not born a leader.
25:05
Leadership is learned. You know, you're, you're, you're
25:08
born with whatever you know, human firing you've got.
25:13
But leadership is a, is a learned skill and how you lead
25:17
people is something that you learn.
25:20
And the ability to, to get people to follow you is probably
25:25
the most critical skill of a programme manager.
25:27
And so to answer your question, yes, I think somebody who's new
25:31
in their career or anybody deciding they want to be a
25:34
programme manager needs to examine what kind of programme
25:37
manager do I want to be? What kind of programmes do I
25:40
want to lead? Do I want to enjoy this or do I
25:42
want to strong arm people? And I can tell you that in
25:45
today's world, strong arm doesn't work in a programme.
25:49
What does work? What makes for the best
25:51
programme managers? The, the secret to success
25:55
really is being able to get people to follow you, being able
26:00
to articulate a vision in a way that people see themselves in
26:04
it, in a way that draws people into that, that bigger thing
26:09
that the bigger reason we're doing whatever you're doing in
26:14
as a programme rather than as individual projects, because it
26:18
is bigger than any of the individual projects or
26:22
individual people. You know, we, we talk about
26:24
leaving a legacy, but it's the, the legacy for each of the
26:28
individual people, what they're going to tell their friends,
26:31
their family, their, their grandchildren about what they
26:34
did in their lives. This is going to be one of those
26:37
stories. Well, that's pretty powerful
26:40
really, to think about it in that way.
26:42
Is that how you think about the work that you do?
26:44
Absolutely. Which programmes have stuck with
26:47
you personally the most? The Panama Canal, what it did
26:52
for the Panamanians and, and for programme management for the
26:58
people of Spain and Italy, because they were the, that's
27:02
where the contractors came from and where a lot of the major
27:06
equipment was designed and built.
27:08
So it's, you know, it's a story of a world really growing up and
27:13
doing great things that changed the world, right?
27:16
I mean, if you look at the nature of shipping and the
27:19
movement of commodities, I mean, just so many aspects of that.
27:24
One programme touched so many lives and changed, changed so
27:28
many things. Another programme that I talked
27:32
about quite a bit is the FIFA World Cup in Qatar.
27:37
And when we got there, Qatar was a Doha in Qatar was a small city
27:44
and now it's a metropolis and it's beautiful.
27:48
And a lot of that was the master plan for FIFA World Cup.
27:53
And how all of the different engineering companies,
27:57
construction companies, designers from around the world
28:00
came together to talk to figure out how they were going to put
28:04
together all of the infrastructure, bridges, roads,
28:08
the airport, you know, the the buildings, the facilities, How
28:13
all of that came together and changed the country of Qatar.
28:19
And how we see the people who had lived in a way that that
28:24
none of us, a lot of us had not experienced because Qatar had
28:28
been really a country on its own prior to all of that
28:32
involvement. In fact, on some huge
28:35
programmes, what are the pieces of advice that you wish someone
28:40
had given you when you were starting out?
28:42
Well, I, I wish I'd had more to read.
28:46
I recommend that people read case studies, read London 2012
28:52
as a phenomenal library of, of learning about how they put
28:58
things together and and the thought process.
29:02
I would, I would read a lot about major programmes.
29:06
I would network with, learn from experienced programme managers.
29:11
You're going to need those relationships when things get
29:14
tough and you don't have, you know, if, if you're out there
29:17
and you don't have somebody to talk to about, you know, this
29:20
thing looks like it's about to fall apart, you know, what is it
29:23
I'm missing? What am I not seeing?
29:25
Having other experienced programme managers kind of in
29:29
your in your bullpen really really makes a difference.
29:34
And is can that can that be informal as much as formal?
29:38
Yes, I, I think, I, I think, you know, we, we build these formal
29:42
structures to support informal relationships.
29:46
I think, you know, relationships between people are pretty much
29:49
how you, how you have that relationship.
29:51
So you're going to find people that you trust who you can talk
29:55
to. I think if you're having problem
29:58
on a programme, you're not going to put it on a on a chat board,
30:03
you're going to, you're going to contact a an individual or a few
30:06
individuals and say what have you seen?
30:09
What am I missing and help me think through this?
30:12
Are people willing to help in general?
30:15
Always this is something that I've learned and it's I, I think
30:20
it's, I think it's a truism for people in general, but for
30:23
programme directors especially, people love to tell their story.
30:28
And programme directors have a, they have, they have solved some
30:33
of the world's greatest challenges or been on the
30:35
forefront as these challenges are being solved and being mad
30:41
and, and overcome. And and they are to a person
30:46
always interested in providing an opinion and helping think
30:52
through things and very generous as a community.
30:57
What's the hardest bit about being a programme manager?
31:00
The people. And then I'll ask you, what's
31:05
the best fit? What's the best fit?
31:07
Are you going to say the people is the people?
31:09
Yeah, you know, the the technical aspects of a programme
31:14
are often fascinating. Like how are you going to build
31:18
the stadiums quickly enough and, and in the right places that you
31:23
can get people around to see as many games as you know, all of
31:27
that I think is fascinating, but is solvable given the technology
31:33
and and the the state of human development.
31:37
Now the really fascinating part is how do you bring people
31:41
together to work together, to be a part of something bigger, to
31:45
really want to achieve that vision and and deliver those
31:50
outcomes to have an effect and an impact on the world and the
31:54
way programmes are are meant to. Since you first became a
31:59
programme manager, So what 20 years ago?
32:03
How has programme management changed over that those two
32:08
decades, roughly? The way it's changed is clients
32:14
have matured. Clients understand a lot more
32:19
what they're looking for and what they need.
32:22
I think another way that it's changed, you know, 2025 years
32:27
ago programme management was new and it didn't have the overtime
32:33
over budget over and over again shadow hanging over it, which
32:37
is, you know, I already said I, I believe is, is unfair and, and
32:41
unrealistic way to look at programmes.
32:45
But as a, as we move forward with programme management, there
32:49
are things that we understand now we didn't know then, like
32:53
the importance of taking the time to set up the organisation
32:58
that will deliver the programme. You know, it's a, it's a
33:00
separate being a separate entity and it needs to be put together
33:04
correctly. The opportunity to bring the
33:09
ALT, the entire supply chain and all of the stakeholders into the
33:13
programme so that they are helping deliver and also
33:20
receiving benefit from the programme so that it's not a
33:25
projects are often tension between the project and the
33:30
contractor. You know, it's all change orders
33:33
and you know, daily drive to scope and schedule and and
33:38
really it's about managing change on programmes.
33:42
It's a whole different idea about managing change.
33:45
It's not about, you know, I'm going to get as much for me as I
33:49
can. I'm going to hold back from you
33:51
as much as I can. It's really a more win win.
33:55
Integrating all of those parties into that vision to be part of
34:00
what's being delivered. I think that's how it's changed.
34:03
Suzanne, it's been absolutely so interesting speaking to you and
34:07
getting behind the scenes of Panama programme and also FIFA
34:12
and Qatar. So that's been brilliant
34:14
speaking to you this. Has been fun, Thank you.
34:21
Thanks again to Suzanne for joining us and to you for
34:24
listening to the APM. Podcast, I hope you'll.
34:26
Agree that Suzanne has given a riveting insight into what it
34:29
means to be a great programme manager, and I certainly found
34:32
it hugely inspiring to hear from someone who clearly loves their
34:35
job. Anyway, don't forget to look out
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for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever.
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