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Andy Stanley - - REVERB 34_ Navigating Lifes Cliffs and Fog · Andy Stanley Sermons

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast Reverb, a conversation
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  Speaker 1: designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging
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  Speaker 1: deeper into this month's episode. I'm your host, Susie Gray. Andy,
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  Speaker 1: in last week's conversation... you talk with Jim Collins about
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  Speaker 1: his new book, What to Make of a Life.
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  Speaker 2: And it was What to Make of a Great Conversation.
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  Speaker 2: It was amazing. Yeah, he gave us so much time.
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  Speaker 2: But then again, you have been inviting him to be
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  Speaker 2: on the podcast for how many years? A couple of
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  Speaker 2: years now. A couple of years. And you were relentless
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  Speaker 2: in a good way. And they said, just wait, just wait,
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  Speaker 2: just wait. And so they came through. And wow, what
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  Speaker 2: a great conversation because it's a great book.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And I had time to read the whole book and
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  Speaker 2: digest it. And as I said on the podcast, Andrew's
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  Speaker 2: reading it and It was a great conversation.
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  Speaker 1: It was a great conversation and a great book. Well,
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  Speaker 1: the book we talked about is Jim's new book, What
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  Speaker 1: to Make of a Life. And in it, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you guys covered a lot of ground in your conversation.
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  Speaker 2: About the book.
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  Speaker 1: And the idea, one of the ideas that stood out
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  Speaker 1: from your conversation was the idea of cliffs and fog.
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  Speaker 1: And I love the fact that he kind of dispelled,
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  Speaker 1: you know, no, only certain people are going to have
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  Speaker 1: cliffs and like, he's like, no. Cliffs are a regular
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  Speaker 1: part of life and then talks about and often after
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  Speaker 1: a cliff comes the fog. And so let's just start there.
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  Speaker 1: When Jim talks about cliffs and fog, what stood out
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  Speaker 1: to you in that conversation?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think anybody that reads the book immediately thinks
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  Speaker 2: about their own cliffs. That's right. And you don't have
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  Speaker 2: to live that long to have cliffs, whether it was
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  Speaker 2: the girl who broke up with you in high school
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  Speaker 2: or the parents divorcing and suddenly you're ping pong and
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  Speaker 2: back and forth between parents. The first job, it doesn't
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  Speaker 2: go well. I was on academic probation and then, well,
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  Speaker 2: first academic warning, then academic probation at Georgia State. And
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  Speaker 2: my mom said to me, famously, Andy, college isn't for everyone.
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, if your mom doesn't even believe you
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  Speaker 2: can finish college, things aren't going well. Anyway, so I
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  Speaker 2: think we all think about cliffs and the idea that
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  Speaker 2: after a cliff, after an unexpected ending or tragic ending,
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  Speaker 2: Or even something good happens, but now it's over. And
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  Speaker 2: now what? There is the fog of what's next. So
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  Speaker 2: I think it's something everybody can relate to. And what
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  Speaker 2: was great is he normalized it. He's like, welcome to life.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. You can't avoid them. Again, remember he said
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  Speaker 2: they tried in profiling these people. They decided, well, let's
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  Speaker 2: study the people who didn't have cliffs.
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  Speaker 1: The cliff-free life people.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there were none.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, none at all.
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  Speaker 2: So we get to expect it when it happens. It's
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  Speaker 2: not the end of the world. Every parent has had
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  Speaker 2: that conversation, you know, because our kids, something happens and
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  Speaker 2: we think, oh, it's the end. You know, my life
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  Speaker 2: will never be the same. And we chuckle on the
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  Speaker 2: inside and try to look heartbroken on the outside because
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  Speaker 2: we know better. Right. Well, it's true for those of
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  Speaker 2: us who are adults as well. You know, there's there's
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  Speaker 2: cliffs and there's fog. But his insight about how to
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  Speaker 2: come out of the fog and what not to do
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  Speaker 2: in the midst of the fog is so helpful. So
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  Speaker 2: that's sort of what came to mind now as it
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  Speaker 2: relates to leadership. gosh, as leaders, we lead in the
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  Speaker 2: fog so many times, right? If something bad happens or
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  Speaker 2: something happened organizationally, or you think about COVID, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the whole world went into a fog. And so the
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  Speaker 2: whole idea of simplex stepping, the phrase he uses to
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  Speaker 2: talk about how to respond in the midst of a fog,
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  Speaker 2: that you don't make big life-changing decisions. But again, asking
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  Speaker 2: the question, what's next? What can I do? What can
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  Speaker 2: I do? And for leaders, What we have to do
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  Speaker 2: is we have to give people something to do because
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  Speaker 2: the point he makes, taking a step creates energy, energy
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  Speaker 2: creates clarity. So you got to do something. You got
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  Speaker 2: to take a baby step that creates energy. Now you're
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  Speaker 2: moving in a direction. So all of that was so
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  Speaker 2: helpful and so applicable for leaders, again, whose companies or
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  Speaker 2: organizations are in a bit of a season of fog
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  Speaker 2: and they're responsible for leading the organization through the fog. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: He said, and movement creates energy and that fuels more
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  Speaker 1: movement and a feeling of momentum. Even if you don't
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  Speaker 1: know where that momentum is taking you becomes a reality.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And I loved that idea of that is the momentum that,
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  Speaker 1: That eventually gets you out of it. And actually reminded
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  Speaker 1: me of your idea of gaining and sustaining momentum. Like
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  Speaker 1: there is something about getting the flywheel of momentum spinning
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  Speaker 1: that keeps momentum happening.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And when people look back or when we look
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  Speaker 2: back on other people's stories, it's so obvious. Yeah. And
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  Speaker 2: we forget that the people who had breakthrough ideas or
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  Speaker 2: done amazing things in the world, they did not know
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  Speaker 2: their story. They didn't have a story yet. Their story
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  Speaker 2: was in process. And again, we get the highlight reels
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  Speaker 2: most of the time. We don't get the fog story.
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  Speaker 2: And so for those of us in leadership or if
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  Speaker 2: you're in leadership right now and you're not sure how
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  Speaker 2: things are going to work out, hey, there's something you
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  Speaker 2: can do even when you're not sure what to do.
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  Speaker 2: And there's a direction you can move in, even though
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  Speaker 2: to his point, you don't know what the ultimate destination is.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's another powerful idea. You don't have
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  Speaker 2: to know the destination in order to take a step
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  Speaker 2: in a direction because direction is ultimately is what opens
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  Speaker 2: the door or leads to a destination. So anyway, all
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  Speaker 2: of that's super appropriate to leadership, even though we didn't
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  Speaker 2: lean into it. But, you know, at the end of
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  Speaker 2: the book, Susie, I'm kind of jumping ahead. He circles
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  Speaker 2: back around at the end of the book and talks
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  Speaker 2: about leadership. We didn't get into that part of the
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  Speaker 2: book and the discussion, but he applies some of that
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  Speaker 2: to his renewed understanding of leadership. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So what do you think, I mean, what do you
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  Speaker 1: think the dangers are, you know, for leadership or that
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  Speaker 1: you've experienced of outrunning fog instead of navigating it well?
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's two things. First, as a leader, I live with,
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  Speaker 2: and I know better, but I still live with the
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  Speaker 2: pressure that I should know. I should know what to do.
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  Speaker 2: I should know what's next. I should know the direct,
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  Speaker 2: I should know. If I was a good leader, I
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  Speaker 2: would know. And Jim gives us permission not to know.
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  Speaker 2: And when you're in the fog, you cannot see. You
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  Speaker 2: cannot see. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with you. You
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  Speaker 2: haven't done anything wrong. You're just in the fog. So
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  Speaker 2: to give ourselves permission to acknowledge we don't know. And
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  Speaker 2: this is, in leadership, so important with teams is to
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  Speaker 2: be able to acknowledge current reality and point in a
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  Speaker 2: direction and give people something to do to say, I'm
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  Speaker 2: not sure how this is going to work out, but
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  Speaker 2: we've been in situations like this before. So in the meantime,
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  Speaker 2: here's what we're going to do. I'm not sure where
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  Speaker 2: this is ultimately going to lead, but in the meantime,
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  Speaker 2: this is what we're going to do. So to come
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  Speaker 2: up with short-term plans, again, because movement creates energy, which
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  Speaker 2: creates clarity. And our responsibility is to get things moving
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  Speaker 2: without a clear picture of the destination and not to
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  Speaker 2: get locked into a, hey, we shouldn't do anything until
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  Speaker 2: we know what the destination is. That's almost always a mistake. So, again,
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  Speaker 2: there are definitely takeaways as it relates to organizational leadership
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  Speaker 2: or just personal leadership. Personal leadership.
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  Speaker 1: And I do think it's interesting because those small steps
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  Speaker 1: in the fog, the momentum is felt because it feels like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: I had a little win. I don't exactly know where
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  Speaker 1: we're going, but that felt like, you know, that felt
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  Speaker 1: like a win. And, you know, small wins compounded over time,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, makes you feel like you're winning. And I
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  Speaker 1: think that's what creates that moment.
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  Speaker 2: It also generates creativity and a step in a direction
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  Speaker 2: creates more options. And it's a great reminder not to
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  Speaker 2: get stuck. When I finished graduate school, I was going
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  Speaker 2: to go to Baylor University. to get a PhD, and
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  Speaker 2: I didn't get accepted into the program. And I know
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  Speaker 2: everyone's shocked. My GRE scores weren't great, and it was
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  Speaker 2: a small program. And other people said, oh, it was political.
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  Speaker 2: Your dad was president of the Southern Baptist Convention. But
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  Speaker 2: it was my score. I know it. I'm not confused
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  Speaker 2: as to why I didn't get into the PhD program
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  Speaker 2: at Baylor. Anyway, but it was a cliff. It was like, wait,
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  Speaker 2: I was dating a girl. She was at Baylor. I
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  Speaker 2: was going to go to Baylor. I was going to
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  Speaker 2: get a job at a church. get my PhD, you know,
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  Speaker 2: maybe we'd get married, you know, and then boom, all
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  Speaker 2: that changes. And I go to the office and I'm
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  Speaker 2: looking for my acceptance notification. And they went to the
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  Speaker 2: other file and handed me that, that other letter. And
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  Speaker 2: now my future goes dark. I'm about, I'm graduating the
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  Speaker 2: next week from DTS. And I literally have nothing to do,
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  Speaker 2: but you know, you, you take steps. I went home, said,
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  Speaker 2: what can I do? And took a job with my
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  Speaker 2: dad's church and did that for 10 years. And you know,
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  Speaker 2: you just can't get stuck in the fog.
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  Speaker 1: And, uh, and I think that example is a good
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  Speaker 1: example of why Jim said there's a fog of youth
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  Speaker 1: because in, when you finish college or when you are,
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  Speaker 1: you know, are working toward grad school or whatever, there's
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  Speaker 1: these moments of like, Oh, now what? Yeah. And that's
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  Speaker 1: why it's, you said you were even going to do
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  Speaker 1: this as a family.
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  Speaker 2: You read the book as a family. Well, but we're
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  Speaker 2: going to try to, that's, That's six adults I've got
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  Speaker 2: to convince to read a book all at the same time,
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  Speaker 2: and they all have babies. So we'll see. We'll see.
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  Speaker 2: But I do want them to read or at least
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  Speaker 2: even listen to the audio version of the book because
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  Speaker 2: the book creates language. And sometimes it's hard to talk
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  Speaker 2: about intangible concepts without language, without common language. And the
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  Speaker 2: book is full of common language. I mean, even the
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  Speaker 2: idea of a cliff or a fog. Hey, you guys
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  Speaker 2: just hit a cliff as a couple. Hey, you're in
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  Speaker 2: the fog right now. Guess what? Fogs don't last forever.
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  Speaker 2: Here's some things you can do. So, again, just having
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  Speaker 2: common language organizationally or even as a family. So helpful.
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  Speaker 2: He's given us so much. So helpful.
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  Speaker 1: Andy, another thing I love that I don't think you
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  Speaker 1: and Jim got to in your conversation, but it's in
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  Speaker 1: the book when he's talking about this idea of constellation
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  Speaker 1: of encoding. He says, keep in mind, encoding lies within.
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  Speaker 1: waiting to be discovered rather than being taught from without.
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  Speaker 1: I thought that was such a powerful reminder that so
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  Speaker 1: much of what we think is, oh, I need to
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  Speaker 1: be taught that versus I need to look within and
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  Speaker 1: discover what I'm uniquely built and wired in.
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  Speaker 2: So when you think about your own journey, can you
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  Speaker 2: think about a moment or a season where you've kind
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  Speaker 2: of had this aha moment where you thought, oh, this
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  Speaker 2: is what I was made for. This is what I
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  Speaker 2: love to do. Or this is the thing. And it
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  Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily a job, but maybe it was something about
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  Speaker 2: a job. Because he gives the illustration of, I think
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  Speaker 2: he was working for Hewlett Packard and he was not
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  Speaker 2: in his stream or his encoding. And they asked him
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  Speaker 2: to do a research project kind of as a side thing.
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  Speaker 2: And when he started doing that, he realized, oh, he
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  Speaker 2: had to be asked to do it to discover that
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  Speaker 2: it meshed with his natural encoding. So did you ever
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  Speaker 2: have an experience like that professionally where it's like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: this is my thing?
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  Speaker 1: I think I really wanted to understand early on in
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  Speaker 1: my career. I kept ending up in jobs that were
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  Speaker 1: never the core of the business. It was always the fringe.
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  Speaker 1: So You know, I was in photonic switching at a
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  Speaker 1: company that made phone gear. And then I went to
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  Speaker 1: Bell South and I wasn't in this was back when
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  Speaker 1: there was landlines and cellular was just coming, you know,
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  Speaker 1: into focus. And I wanted to do things that were
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  Speaker 1: at the edge of what was the core of the business.
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  Speaker 1: And I've always kind of ended up in these like
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  Speaker 1: fringe jobs. The last job I had was that good. Well,
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  Speaker 1: it was a proof-of-concept job, but I couldn't figure out, like,
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  Speaker 1: why do I always gravitate?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, you gravitated to it. I gravitated to it. So
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  Speaker 2: it was related to your encoding somehow.
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  Speaker 1: But I couldn't name it. I just kept realizing I
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  Speaker 1: keep ending up in these jobs. And Cheryl Batchelder, actually,
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  Speaker 1: back when she was CEO of Popeyes, she had told
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  Speaker 1: me about a standout assessment. And she said, I was
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  Speaker 1: talking to her about this, and she said, you should
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  Speaker 1: take the standout. And I took it, and I came
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  Speaker 1: out as a pioneer influencer. And I read the description
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  Speaker 1: and I was like, that's why. That's why I keep
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  Speaker 1: ending up on all of these like do something different,
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  Speaker 1: do something fringe, do something that's kind of pushing the
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  Speaker 1: edge of whatever organization I'm in.
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  Speaker 2: So you gravitated toward those environments.
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  Speaker 1: I gravitated toward it, but I couldn't name it. And
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  Speaker 1: then once I named it, I was like, oh, I
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  Speaker 1: will never be good in a run rate job.
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  Speaker 2: I just won't be. Well, what you're doing now with
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  Speaker 2: your move is definitely that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, it's definitely that.
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  Speaker 1: But I think that's why I love it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But knowing that encoding for me, I know I can't
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  Speaker 1: be in a, this is how we do it until
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  Speaker 1: further notice environment because I want to look at like,
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  Speaker 1: but what's just.
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  Speaker 2: Over that edge. So when he was talking about encoding,
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  Speaker 2: I had a memory. I remember this a little bit different.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we're at a traditional Southern Baptist church, worked
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  Speaker 2: for my dad for 10 years and about year eight,
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  Speaker 2: They bought this property out on the edge of town
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  Speaker 2: with a bunch of warehouses and Avon packing plant. And
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  Speaker 2: the deacon said, Andy, would you go out there and
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  Speaker 2: start a second site, a second campus? And then we're
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  Speaker 2: going to sell the downtown property and everybody's going to
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  Speaker 2: move out there. And then they and they said, but,
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  Speaker 2: you know. Unfortunately, it's very raw. It's a warehouse. We're
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: not going to be able to provide. And they named
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  Speaker 2: all the traditional things we wouldn't be able to do
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  Speaker 2: out there, which were things I didn't want to do anyway.
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  Speaker 2: And I tried to act sad, like, oh, I don't
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  Speaker 2: know how we're going to get by without a choir
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  Speaker 2: and all this stuff. Anyway. We'll do our best. We'll
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  Speaker 2: do our best. So I took these people I loved
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  Speaker 2: working with. And this is the moment. So we had
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  Speaker 2: our first service in the warehouse, very raw. And Sandra
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  Speaker 2: and I walked out the door. We were walking to
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  Speaker 2: the construction trailer, which was our sort of office on
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  Speaker 2: Sunday morning. And I turned to her and I said,
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  Speaker 2: that's what I want to do the rest of my life.
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: There was something about communicating in that environment on a
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  Speaker 2: Sunday morning that was raw and casual and informal. And
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  Speaker 2: it couldn't be the traditional. It was like, I thought this,
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  Speaker 2: whatever that was, I mean, I've been teaching for years.
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  Speaker 2: I've been preaching for years. I mean, none of that
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  Speaker 2: was new. But the combination of things was like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: I can't go back. This is what I want to do.
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  Speaker 1: That's your lightning bolt.
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  Speaker 2: So, yeah. So, again, but it's opportunity leads to opportunity.
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  Speaker 2: And then somewhere along the way, if you're looking for it,
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  Speaker 2: you catch sight of it and something lights up. And
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  Speaker 2: the advantage of reading this book is it just reminds
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  Speaker 2: us to be looking for those things, to help our
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  Speaker 2: kids look for those things. I feel like it's fun
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  Speaker 2: watching my young adult married kids play. discover and figure
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  Speaker 2: things out, but sometimes you just have to try a
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  Speaker 2: lot of things. But to be able to say to them, hey,
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  Speaker 2: you need to look for your encoding and focus your
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  Speaker 2: time and energy. And the more time and energy you
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  Speaker 2: can give to your encoding, the happier you will be,
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  Speaker 2: the more content you will be, the more motivated you
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  Speaker 2: will be, and probably the more successful you'll be. But
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  Speaker 2: even if you're not successful in the traditional ways we
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: think of success, You're going to be happy and content
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  Speaker 2: because you're going to be in sync with what you
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: were created, not necessarily what you were created to do,
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  Speaker 2: but the kind of thing you were created to do. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well, Andy, that was a great conversation about your conversation
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  Speaker 1: with Jim. I just enjoy this content so much. I
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: don't think I can get enough of it. So, Andy,
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  Speaker 1: as always, thanks for diving deeper on this month's topic.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: And to our listeners, thanks for listening to Reverb. If
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: you found this helpful, please share it with another leader.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And as always, subscribe wherever you listen and visit andystanley.com
• 15:16
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• 15:20
  Speaker 1: further faster.