Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 185: Chris Lawrence - How to Build Businesses & Skills While Still Playing

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185: Chris Lawrence - How to Build Businesses & Skills While Still Playing · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: when I had an injury the start of twenty eleven and that was discated hip.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: So pretty much right in the prime of my career, you know, mid uh sort of early to mid-20s, playing really well, just debuted for Australia the year before.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hardest part about that injury, I was initially told that it could be a career, but we don't know until we get a scan three months later and we need to make sure the blood flow to your hip's still going because if it's slows, because it was out for so long they said it can slow the blood flow to your hip, which means you would need a hip replacement, which means career over.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that three month period pretty much was like just in limbo.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, aside from having you know to talk talk about things to get through serious injury, obviously having study in education was one thing, but I'd finished sort of my course so having something you know to focus on building a business was was one thing.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: But really what got me through that was just the mindset to focus on what what you control and and tried to then just focus on getting back from that injury.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: That was probably the first time that I thought well this could be over again it could be out of my hand hi I'm Ryan Gonsalvus and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Each week I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty elite athletes are still people active.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be inspired by the stories of others Chris welcome to the show.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Good to have you on thanks for having me on mate and I'm looking forward to it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I am very much looking forward to this conversation mainly because we talk frequently anyway about the services that you provide to support athletes in that life after sport.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so actually getting you onto the show is going to be really interesting because one, I get to learn a bit more about your journey but then also two we can talk a lot more about how you're working at least in part with athletes amongst other things.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah sounds good.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah look looking forward to sort of diving into that and um how it all came about and as I said how we we're supporting athletes during their career and post-career as well.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah too easy.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well look Chris for those listening and watching who don't know who you are give us the infomercial mode.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So my name is Chris Lawrence played 15 years professional rugby league for the West Tigers debuted when I was quite young 17 years of age still in high school so thrown sort of straight into deep end was very fortunate enough to have a 15 year career um again fortunate enough to play for Australia played sort of six test matches had a a couple of really unique injuries probably stunted you know parts of my and to even the longevity of it then built a business um during my career to help athletes amongst other groups working in education and that's what I've enrolled into now post my footy career now five going on five years uh post retirement so body still sort of feels the old aches and pains of uh playing yeah every now and then but yeah uh everything's going well.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's great I thought you were going to say the body feels like it could get back into it and ready just giving it no chance.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I probably was uh I I probably could have said that for the first maybe year, two years and then there was definitely a period where I was like yeah there's no way even if I wanted to and you could have paid me all the money you wanted I just wouldn't wouldn't have been able to do it.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's one of the books you said that I just think it's really interesting is you jumped in at 17.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Did it feel like you achieved your dream at 17?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah well I think as a young player coming through or for for most players your dream is to play first grade you know for first grade football so and you don't really see it as a I suppose necessarily I want to have a career it's more yeah you love the game so much and that is the the goal just to achieve sort of those things it it was probably only to be honest the maybe the year before when you get into the probably the SG Ball which is the the SG Ball sort of age group now around that 17, 18 19 years of age where it actually becomes you know uh closer to a reality because you realise you're not far off.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: You see guys that are might have been in this squad maybe two years earlier who are now debuting.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you can start to see that this might be a real possibility you know if you keep working hard and and you keep improving the game that you get that opportunity.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Never do I did I think that I was going to you know my debut so early it was in year 12 my second year playing um SG Ball the the age group for the SG Ball at that point in time was the 18s it's now 19 at the moment but played in my second year and and pretty much went for the ND of my SG Ball season and a lot of the guys then got called up into the Jersey flag where SG Ball was only a shortened competition finished around May probably funny story in that the SG the Jersey flag side at the time was actually going really well for West and the West Tigers and I was playing for the West Magpies in their pathway system and the coach said look we've got a winning team I don't really want to change your winning team you you there's a couple of the SG Ball players that were playing really well look you guys are just going to sit on the bench and to be honest you might not get much game time in the next little bit unless there's injuries.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we're young guys thought yep that's fair enough where we'll just take it as it is um and this was what one of the first sort of training sessions uh sitting on the sideline whilst the main group sort of do their work the whilst I was doing that the reserve grade coach or the New South Wales Cup coach comes up and said oh what what are you doing?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I told him about what the Jersey fleet coach said said leave it with me goes and has a chat the coach come back comes back and say it says come on you're over with me you're playing reserve grade sweet so I went from not making being able to make the the whole squad for Jersey fleet to then starting I actually I think I started off the bench um for reserve grade uh played eight reserve grade games and then got called up by first grade.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is an amazing story Chris I I didn't know that and I don't know the world of luck in some respects comes into it didn't determine your talent but what it meant was you were thrust straight away into the big league.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: You you met up there with with the men with the reserve.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah definitely and I think it definitely helped me because the the level between the Jersey Fleag teams and again the reserve grade team definitely you know you're playing you know I think it was uh under 20 back then to man you know growing men those and I still remember playing in some games you know against South against Bulldogs and teams that yeah and you looked up and playing as first graders that you've been watching on TV for years you know some players in the back end of their career so definitely sort of hardened you up and you know must have played well enough to uh I suppose get the opportunity but even then you're talking about luck like my how my debut came about is I was playing well enough that uh Tim Sheen's you know really good development coach um for for for younger players he always had this thing that he would get you know young players uh to then come and be 18th and 19th man back when 18th 19th man didn't have an event but just to come and train with the team on an away trip just to do the cap the few sessions before the captains are in trouble just to get an idea of what it's like to prepare for a game in that sort of environment like a really good experience so did that and was we're training two, three days out from the game and one of the players uh Paul Fadawira with a hamstring injury and then Tim Change just walked up to me and goes looks like you're playing kid and that was it so I was I didn't have an NRO contract like they had to rush a contract through I had to rush my home dad home from work because I wasn't 18 so I couldn't sign it.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: He had to sign it for me two days later I'm flying to Brisbane three days later I'm sort of running out uh on the field in front of 4000 people at uh Sandcorp so it was when to talk about sort of thrown in the spotlight look again one obviously luck yeah like and and I think with everything too it's about there's always everyone gets an opportunity it's just what you do when that door opens you take the opportunity and I was fortunate enough to take it not only Teddy Kit did you know how did you know you were ready?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well I probably didn't I didn't realise at the time I knew it was such a big leap but I look back at footage now and I I must I look and think I wonder what the other teammates must have been thinking like they would have been thinking what is machines doing this scrawny little kid we're gonna play on the wing what's he thinking he's getting crushed like I I didn't s see how it was such a big leap at the time because I played in reserve grade I thought I'll play a few games against men uh but the speed obviously the just the jump is that next level and I probably it was very much I'm glad it happened in that way I didn't have time to overthink the one piece of advice and you talk about sort of timing and getting opportunities and just you know moments but I about to run out it was probably only really when we went out for warm up and then it was half full stadium at Suncorp 2000 people I'm like really hit me then so obviously nerves really started kicking in then came back in from warm up and you can just hear the crowd at full um stadium Sunday afternoon at Suncorp and Tim Sheen's just said to me before I ran out listen picture for a reason when you get the opportunity in the game I want you to back yourself so I just had those that sort of was good because I'm like okay just back yourself you guys just relax just back yourself and get out there and then 20 minutes in the game there was a loose ball sort of going end to end footy I think it was nil all loose footy I was playing on the wing now centre picks it up and just tips it to me and then I've got the open sideline sort of going here so I take off then I hesitate for a second there's a sort of cover um player coming to make a tackle and I went sort of to take in my head a straight and again when you look at the replay it is like you know tenths of a second this happening but thoughts going through my head at that moment is step off your right foot take the conservative option it's first tackle like it's first and then I just had this in my mind back yourself back yourself from what Sheenzi said and so I split second then I pin the ease they try to take the player on the outside get in the outside and score so I scored in front of the game and and like you know schoolboy kid no one knew like who is this kid what's his name this young kid and you know we end up with going and win the game and from that I had I was still in high school the next day I had a HSC exam yep didn't sort of know what to do and I enjoyed school and I did well in school got the books out to start studying and then Chris Huntington sort of sitting next to me goes what are you doing mate put that away enjoying this wrote that you'd down tomorrow so I had to rock up the next day but then had like cameras following me like the news cameras because you know news story Tigers won the comp the year before and you know they were struggling to make the eight and then it's like all of a sudden they got this big story young schoolboy kid keeps the you know tiger season alive so very much throwing in the deep end uh like physically in the game but then having to deal with media like pressure scrutiny was um yeah very seat learning yeah and what an entrance as well and you know you talk there about you know I asked you how did you know you were ready you're saying you weren't ready um it's interesting just that that little voice or the guidance that you were given beforehand in terms of backing yourself and just as you're about to say I'm not ready for boom you took off and you took I mean you you took a gamble right and for you it sort of paid off.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Before continuing down that path I'm interested then what was the exam that you had to get back for?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember what English exam English exams I don't think I did due to well I was quite hard to come in.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I bet it was and I bet you know like you say all the cameras following you doesn't even help you get the exam mode as you go in.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: School academic clearly you stayed through year 12 which is upper sixth or senior at high school and did you have a path mapped out if you didn't do the rugby root yeah I always not necessarily but there's two lines or sort of career paths I suppose that I knew I was really interested in.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: One is around health and fitness and one was around business.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: In school those were the two you know paths I was really interested in enjoyed those subjects did well so I actually got into did well HC and actually got into an exercise sports science degree at university.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So decided to go down that path again in hindsight if I look back at it would I have gone down that maybe because I wouldn't have ended up there but that shaped pretty much how and the you know the events that occurred in into why I dropped out really shaped again how and why I started an education company.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: When you say go down that path what do you mean go down the health and fitness two problem two arts the health and fitness part in that specific field and potentially university at that stage that path everyone wanted to be physio for a sports team but then no one tells you that there's across all unis every year there's about a thousand people in a physio course and there's 15 or six well now 17 in a rock club so then I was just in most physios and so I think if you're doing you know if we were told that and really laid out again and I suppose it's like the stats for playing football.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're sitting in at well I was going to say yeah so but I think differently to football where you like I love the game you know I love the game um so I I would play for free and if I don't no no if I don't play for first grade no worries whereas this is a career it's like well would you do it even if you weren't going to be a physio or if you had to do the worst physio job ever and I'm like probably not so I was only doing it um because I thought you know that was the the option and and probably again the the timing of going to uni at that point in time the uni I went to and just had a very bad experience and really a negative experience um you know in that first year of university.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think what then follows in terms of full-time contracts and I mean what did you find challenging from a study perspective and a playing perspective?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: What did you find difficult during those moments?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well I I found again finishing my HSC and I was really lucky straight after that first game and this probably set the tone to I suppose m my career my mindset on having something away from sport.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know my parents at the game you know first thing they said obviously you know so proud of you but they said remember you know you've got your HSC you've worked really hard don't throw it away just like make sure you finish it off work hard get finish HSC and then obviously you know we fully can sort the sort itself out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So just that little bit of like that mindset straight away to make sure okay well that's good like I can celebrate this but I don't have to throw anything I've done the last you know few years.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just you know I've got a couple of months left of exams and and I'm finished year 12 so let's just finish it off.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I found is even though the next day exam was pretty difficult to s to uh concentrate but again the media scrutiny I was I didn't know how to deal with I wasn't media trained I didn't know how to deal with so I very and I wasn't a very much an extroverted person so I found it really tough and so I found just really I suppose fighting away and focusing on you know studying for the schoolwork as a really good escape from football and then I played well towards the back end of this and the and I played every game for the rest of that season.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought well okay like I found it was a good escape I'll just I got into uni let's just I'll just accept uni and I'll just try and manage uni and training full time and that's where the biggest struggle was and uni's a different at the moment right now this is is going back but there was no accommodation and and universities and again the particular uni which is known as a prestigious university that uh probably was a bit more accommodating to rugby players and rugby union players but um there was no accommodating training I still remember going to the um you know the coordinator and saying look I can't come to the tutorial on on a Tuesday we're always training on Tuesday can I change to the Wednesday because every you know there's some Wednesdays I have off and to which the you know the coordinator says no at this unit you don't get to choose you're told which one to do and I explained about play professional sport and you know play football and you know again the coordinator said um can't you ask the coach to change training?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I said no well I play on TV you know like and to which the response was well you've got to decide what's more important uh kicking the ball out or your education and cheekishly said well unless you're gonna pay my salary every month I think I'll I'll choose kicking the football around and so I was lucky enough the actual lecturer for that particular subject was like no mate do what you can do I'll support you with notes and let you know what do but got to the end of the year social scientific that that's from a tutorial recognizing going in front of someone living out their dream in many respects but also recognising the entire you know you've also got an opportunity to study, get into a university like that and be able to move forward.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they weren't able to I mean that they just weren't prepared it seems to support you.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know at least that one person.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and look that and then you're right there this there was plenty of other really good lecturers and um supportive people in there um but like I suppose you know people can make generalizations about athletes in in certain ways you know this particular lecture and a number of lecturers were in the bubble of you know thinking they and when I talk about you know university and timing like now working in education I know people in a university system aren't in the real world like they they feel like and often feel like they're above you know and and do speak down to people.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I very much got a bad taste in my mouth with that.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Got to the end of the year and I'd actually just got through but because I enjoyed school I'm like I'm gonna come even if I have and finish this course like I'm not gonna learn anything like uh and the one probably point right at the end of the year I got selected to play in the Australian junior kangaroos and this was I think might have been the unit I that I couldn't attend and go to at all I went to the same coordinator said look I'm away for the two like a 10 day or two week period and the day I I think it's a Monday I get back on the Sunday and that the Monday the assessment was due final assessment I said can I get an extension because I'm not going to be doing work while I'm away and up giving me three days.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like okay and I hadn't been to this tutorial um you know this unit at all luckily have some friends that I went to school with and played sport with that actually doing the course they let me share their notes so I wrote this on myself I think it was actually my thing was biomechanics I think it might have been biomechanics yeah but then I use their graphs so I use their graphs submitted it get done for plagiarism and so they I'm like get caught in the office and I was just so frustrated and it was like I'm trying to do everything I've written it myself what I haven't attended this I don't uh this any of the sessions not by choice it's just physically not been able to and I've made you aware of this and yet I'm getting called in and got called in for a meeting where they um yeah let's it's just and look I'm I'm usually pretty I suppose karmic like that and don't blow up that they meeting I think even with the vice dean and said look this could go on the academic record and if you you know if you don't redo your assignment you know we're gonna remove you from this you know uh remove you from the course and I said don't bother I said I'm done with this and said amongst a few other things that you know it'd be a bit different if I was a un if I was a rugby player you'd be treating a bit different but in high looking hindsight and things at my that was a callus for going nah did no one understands how no one's really understanding the needs and demands of athletes and it doesn't make sense and again it didn't make sense for universities or tapes or anyone to specifically design a line of education for athletes because they make up such a minority.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So financially doesn't make sense so it's like you have to feed into this and if you don't then you you don't and so that pretty much started my gave me the over time the motivation then no there's got to be a better way.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I guess motivate you one to find the better way to study and you know further your your own knowledge and education but I suppose also it give you then this impetus that was perhaps dormant at the time but change the ways for athletes in the way that athletes can continue their education.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So before we step into that then I'm interested in on those two things one how did you continue learning or education out of the game whilst being a player and then two let's talk about the culmination of injuries that made you have to think okay something might have to change here and might have to come out of this game.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: There are too many stories of bankruptcies mental health issues and unfortunately suicide and so I think it's time for every year we see thousands of athletes have reach a point where they need to consider their life activities it might be a retirement injury or they need to jump careers between sport and a job.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: As a former English profession footballer I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy innovation and now life coach career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to help those around me find their career Second Wind find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group Secondwind Academy where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: But when I finished uh sort of dropped out of UD I had about probably might have been a year where I didn't do anything.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna focus on footy but I found myself riding the highs and lows too much like I just was in it and there was nothing else there's nothing that was just keeping me balanced and level and it's awesome when you're winning because it's all in it but then you know you know you see yourself when you see the players when who are all in of that sometimes the losses you can't then recover from the losses and and it's bouncing back hard and you have to get over it quickly to then perform the next week.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like you know I want to get back in education.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like you know I'll go down the say down the health and fitness lines I went and did a um search three and four and fitness but did it online I'm like I'm gonna go the complete Opposite to like the face-to-face communion I'm going online, but struggled even as you know proactive as I was, just lack of support.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I needed some support and you know, sort of got through it all.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: But and that sort of, you know, off the back of that led to uh me, you know, and and working my now business partner who was like most athletes who played reserve grade for a lot of years, few injuries, and like at 23 is like I'm not gonna make it what what else?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I haven't, you know, I've I haven't done any form of studies in school.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that started.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, aside from that, when we talk about the sort of having a business, whilst I was doing that uh cert three and four, I started a couple of small businesses, holiday coaching clinic for um for footy clear kids, started some, you know, some boot camps.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've always again when I talked about the two sides of interest, business and sort of fitness, and then I was like, well, if I can merge them into one, that's sort of covered two things.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I just found doing things outside to keep my mind going just meant I didn't overthink or overanalyse when things weren't going right in footy.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I could do that thinking and analyzing and putting energy towards something that was proactive rather than you know overthinking something that I'm getting worked up or you know, in my own mind around my performance or how I performed or the tackle I missed on the weekend again.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and the older you get, you realise the quicker you flush it and just let it go.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Any mistake on the field, if you can instantly just forget about it and move on, they're the hike faults.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I probably carried things too long, and but I found education the quickest way to help me sort of move on from things.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So at what point in your career did you realise this might end?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have to find a different path.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Probably two to all first was when I had an injury the start of 2011, and that was discated hip.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So pretty much right in the prime of my career, you know, mid- sort of early to mid-20s, playing really well, just debuted for Australia the year before.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hardest part about that injury, I was initially told that it could be a career, but we don't know until we get a scan three months later, and we need to make sure the blood flow to your hip's still going because if it's slows because it was out for so long, they said it can slow the blood flow to your hip, which means you would need a hip replacement, which means career over.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that three-month period pretty much was like just in limbo, you know, aside from having you know to talk about things to get through serious injury.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, having studied in education was one thing, but I'd finished sort of my course, so having something, you know, to focus on building a business was was one thing, but really what got me through that was just the mindset to focus on what what you control and and tried to then just focus on getting back from that injury.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: That was probably the first time that I thought, well, this could be over.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it could be out of my hands.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can try everything I can to come back, and if I get told, it's out of my hands.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, well, what can I do?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've already I've again dropped out of uni, I've now got a fitness qualification.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't necessarily not that I wanted to be a trainer forever, but for me, it was doing it to get back into learning, learn more about your body, and then maybe go down the business side, not be a trainer.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and so that's when I started, and that was around the right around the time that I'm like, well, I've got time to sort of think about a business, it could be over, you know.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then my business partner at the time, well, business partner now, um, and at the time he had finished his, you know, he'd his career sort of hung up the boots, went to uni, dropped out of uni, went to TAFE and did a fitness course via TAFE.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we just had the conversation one day and said, there's like there's no way athletes can't go four days a week at TAFE and train, and had been playing five or six years by then.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, there's no way a lot of the players I know can get through an online course by themselves.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's build something, let's build a course specifically for athletes.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where that idea started, right around the time where I'm like, okay, well, it could be over anyway.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, let's let's go, let's start.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: We were already sort of dabbling in those other businesses and we're still sort of doing different things, and we're like, let's try this as well.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's probably the first, you know, real time.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then later on in my career, where I definitely knew it was another unique injury where pretty much again uh had a head clash and broke every single bone in my face, had sort of 10 plates sort of now inserted in my place to sort of hold it together.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that was at the back end of my career.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It did end up coming back for the injury and playing one more year, but sort of knew that was it, and that was also around the time that it was the decision to make with that education business in that okay, is this gonna turn into more than just a hobby, like you know, a business or a site, which it was for years, or is this gonna be now a company that we're gonna really grow?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that and that's where and if so, we have to buy in, and this means that I've got to start getting ready now, because you know, I end up playing a couple years, we had COVID, so there was you know barriers, but you know, we have to start really not that we weren't taking it seriously, but it it is all chips in.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: You say chips in, it's that focus, it's been intentional, and you're at this flux point for you.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Where would your playing career go next versus where could the business go?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that call, that putting the chips in, how did you make that decision?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: How did you know again were you registered?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the biggest thing was when I came back, it was 2019, I injured, came back in 2019, then 2020 was the COVID year, so you know, it was the really difficult year where there was the break during the year.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I knew then just I suppose number one, the the body I physically and mentally had put so much energy to returning after the facial injury, like just to overcome some of those demons of getting back into contact and physically, it took a lot out of me, like the back end of that year, and then I did a pre-season, and I was like, I don't know how many more of these pre-seasons I can do.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know, and then I started thinking, well, do I have some conversations?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to keep playing, and I still had the drive to train play, but at the intensity of the week in, week out that at the NRL is then again so the manager and we had some conversations, you know, do we look at maybe some overseas opportunities where I can maybe play for a few more years?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And COVID came and I still was having those conversations.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we talked about what made you make the decision, I had to look at we were very much at a crossroads with the business.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: The COVID, like all businesses hit it, so it did have a hit on business where it's like, well, I need to make the call.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: If I decide to go over and play, you know, two more years in in England, for example, I I can pretty much say that the business you know won't be there when it's you know it's gonna be too much on my business partner to keep running, or I go all in.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, as much as whether I wanted to keep playing on it, I might I sat down and you know with my wife and said, well, and she was probably more again, wanted to say, look, keep playing.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can you only retire once, and everyone's you know says that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I was done, I think, from the NRL.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like the intensity, I think that's time, move on.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, for me, it was if I look in 10 years' time and look at what positions am I gonna be in the best position, and I'm like, I'll be in a better position in 10 years' time if I decide to call time now and put that all in on the career rather than two more years of footy and then have to then find what else.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean it's I like the way you, you know, looked forward, thought about yourself in 10 years looking back, what would probably give you the best outcome?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it was to an extent painting that destination.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose coming to that then, it's interesting, you know, let's talk a bit about the business and what it is, because I like the way it came about from the sense that you were a player, your business part as a player, you've done the study, you've gone through these challenges, and you thought there must be a better way.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: There must be a way for athletes to be their best athletic self and further their education as well.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me then the business, how it structured what it is.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So again, so we started the business one well-being, which again, under that umbrella, we did a few things while when we did start um the athlete education arm, but partnered with a registered training organization or private TAFE in sort of 2011-2012 to deliver the fitness or assist in delivering the fitness qualification or athletes.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: The reason we did that is that again, like myself, not in that we necessarily thought every athlete was going to the industry, but it was a really good stepping stone back into educate or like uh into that next phase for my business partner.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was had not built these learning skills.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, learning is a skill.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you leave disengage at school at 16, which we see so many of our athletes we work with to go, I'm just gonna play football.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's 23, you're 23, you know, seven years later, I've got to find what's next.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you haven't built any of those skills, so it's a lack of confidence.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we're like, this is a very good segue that athletes have confidence in fitness, they do it every day.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to make that connection for them, and immediately we can build learning skills by building confidence.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that is one of the reasons why we we chose that course in particular, because it worked for us, and so that we can say, You've built some skills, you've got a qualification, you've got no more to help you be a better athlete.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully that is the start of your next step, whether it's starting a business, coaching, PE teaching, strength conditioning, whatever it may be.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we did that for a number of years.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh fortunately, the the person who or the you know that the mentor uh that we partner with um uh who owned his own RTO, he ended up going and selling his RTO uh around 2016, and then he sort of worked a couple years through that, and once he'd fully exited, he said, Look, I'm gonna help you guys, you know, become your own.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's probably time you become your own RCO.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but I recommend doing it from scratch.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think don't make the mistake of sort of going just buying, and you you know, you need to understand how to operate this if you want to make this long term.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So spent a few years, and that was sort of the whole then plan we talk about building that into you know into the future.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you I mean you were building that, you were doing a lot of this and that experience whilst playing.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so for you, it wasn't a sort of cliff moment, it was sort of much more a levelling up and suddenly you could see which was probably gonna give you the life that you wanted to live more than the other, rather than God's gone, I have to figure out something else.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And which is great, and you know, testament to the fact that you started doing that, or indeed you continued much of that path.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of you know, business as athletes, I'm assuming as an athlete, it's competition, it's win, it's been the best, it's this is what they bit and and so from a business perspective, have you brought all of that with you now into running this business or have you had to shift that in some way?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everything I do, and I and I sit on in conferences now and on uh panels and now having you know a business that has you know initially just work with athletes, now we work across a broad spectrum of of cohorts and now sort of run nationally, um, you know, with a team that you're not only it's not just you and other people, you're you're managing and you're leading and setting vision for uh you know your entire company.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the biggest thing I I say is that everything I relate back to sport.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I literally go, okay, I'm in this situation now.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: What is a parallel I can draw from sport?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I apply that and in everything.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the most underrated thing and underutilized thing that players can should be taking into when they leave and understanding before they leave, because especially with me, when it most comes straight out of you know school, even into the system, even if they're not playing, they're gonna the system really young, so they don't get to see the other side and just take for granted that this high performance mentality and how to keep is just what everyone else, how everyone else thinks, how everyone else everyone else acts.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be as simple as, again, perfect example.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you've got you know a team and they've got their if they're not clear like in a game, you know, like a coach in a if I'm a back rower, if I'm not clear on what the coach needs for me, really clarity on what my role is, then I'm like, well, did I play good?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I how do you know if you're playing well or not?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the if the coach says to me, this week, I need you to lead the kick chase, I need you put pressure on the half and be a running option.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I just focus on those three things and I do those three things, I've played whether we win the game or not, I perform them.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: In wizard, I can't expect in team to if I have I even give them clear instructions to go, how are you gonna win the week?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: These are the three things in your role.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing these three things, you're winning your role and you're winning the week.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not clear on that, how do I expect them to perform or how do they know whether to play well?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's just sort of one example, but every single thing that I bring, you know, resilience get around to us about resilience.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Every athlete is resilient, not because of injuries, but the back end of a game, the most resilient you have to be is the 65th minute of a footy game where your lungs are burning, your lactic acid in your legs, you know, you just don't know when you don't know if you can hang on.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that ability just to hang in and the difference between the good and the great are the ones that understand.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: All I've got to do is hang in there and hang in there, and the opportunity will come.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And in businesses, it's the same thing.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people give up too easy.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you just have the same mindset, that's it, just keep focusing on the next day, the next tackle, the next thing, the next thing, and then you look up and you know the opportunity comes, and you know, the competition's not there because you've been able to outlast them.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you look at where you are in the business now, now whilst you've been technically in the business a long time, but since retirement and giving it the real, since athletic retirement and really giving it that focus, then I'm curious where have you had to bring in that type of resilience and have you had a sense of you're still hanging in?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think all the time, like we there's always, you know, like in sport, you have things go well.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is this is like an ongoing pre-season where there's no guarantee that it's going to end, there's no guarantee that you win a game, and there's the very odd chance you may get to a grand final and may win.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: But if you do, the win is massive.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like that where every single day there is an issue or challenge, and then you might get the odd win.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's back to okay, how do you address and it's sold business about solving problems?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can solve problems better than other people and deliver something in that's going to add value in another way, then that's gonna help you grow.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of resilience to the business, again, as a new in each area, because I've had to learn very biggest probably things, and even relating it to sort of what you know when we speak to to athletes, is that start early not to be able to understand what career pathway, but everything you do, it's an accumulation of skills.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you haven't played magically paid first grade because you started kicking a footy around at 16 and now 20 at first grade.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine you started playing in the backyard when we were six years of age.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: How many passes back and forth do you think you've done between the age of six and twenty?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Probably millions.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's millions of reps of doing a skill to allow you to be great at something.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you can't then go finish and then go, oh, again, perfect example.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this was the realization for me where I'm like, okay, I really want to focus this year is going to be on a focus on honing on sales.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sales and marketing want to really get good at sales and marketing.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I can't do 400 sales calls and think, well, you know, I'm gonna be an expert in it when I did a million passes.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to get a million sales calls to be the same level of an expert of that.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the realization is number one, you need to start early.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, there's only a certain amount of skills you can be great at, and when you're not great at that, you have to have the right team to complement those skills.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so that, again, like with footy, you know, everyone can't be the goal kicker and the half.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Your strength is your strength, and you need the other people around, which is what I say to athletes, just build skills because the early you build skills, it means that and you learn and you build experience.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what it is and what career it is, you just build an accumulation of skills that an opportunity arises solely because you built those skills, not because you were chasing a career.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, you've just given some great advice, I think, for athletes and actually beyond athletes.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think anyone who's looking to understand to break down how do they find that sort of clarity in their career and what they might be good at.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you just described will really help it.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, listen, Chris, I've I've enjoyed our conversation and I know there's going to be people listening, watching who are going to want to get in touch with you.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best way to do that?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go to onTraining.com.au um website there, uh all inquiries uh can come through it forward to me.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you want to follow me on socials, Chris Lawrence04 uh on uh Instagram or or my uh Chris Lawrence on LinkedIn.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh try to be more proactive on LinkedIn, particularly in the last uh six months.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, making sure uh again I'm sharing part of the journey.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again, some of these thoughts here.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's just more like spitting out these are my thoughts.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yes, anyone wanting to connect with me, I I'm really passionate about people who are aligned like yourself, uh, you know, in this space and um, you know, not just within the the athletic space, but it's more how do we use what sport teaches us to try to excel and and be the leaders in whatever industry.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: So again, um yeah, anyone who wants to reach out more than happy to have a have the chat.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Chris, thanks a lot for joining me this afternoon.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Really enjoyed hearing your perspective on finding clarity in in our life, quite simply.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Mike.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's all from me.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Take it easy until next time.