Latest / Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza / Ep.58 - Joe Masek and Freedom Group’s 95% Success: Rewiring Men’s Minds | Porn Addiction Recovery | Craving Free Life | Mens Mental Health

Transcript

Ep.58 - Joe Masek and Freedom Group’s 95% Success: Rewiring Men’s Minds | Porn Addiction Recovery | Craving Free Life | Mens Mental Health · Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza

0:00
Joe Massik, you're the founder of The Freedom Group.
0:02
Our promise we will help you get off the craving for porn in a
0:06
year or less. How do you do that?
0:10
You have a 12 month process that we invite guys into it.
0:14
It's sort of centers around a weekly coaching call that's also
0:19
coupled with individual one-on-one coaching with a
0:22
freedom coach, and then they're working with in what you might
0:27
more classically understand is an accountability partner.
0:30
We call them freedom partners, and it's not just about
0:32
maintaining sobriety or making sure that you're maintaining
0:35
sobriety with your partner. They're doing a lot more work in
0:37
those daily calls that they had with each other.
0:39
We have a whole content, we call it the craving free training
0:43
system that unfolds over a calendar year.
0:46
All the information a guy needs to know to get off of craving in
0:50
his life, rewire his brain. And then we have daily habits
0:54
that a guy follows prioritizing the legitimate needs so that he
0:57
stops acting out an illegitimate way to fill those legitimate
1:00
needs. So one of the most basic things
1:03
that that every man needs to prioritize in his life and and
1:06
help him mindfully engage those each day.
1:08
Hey, did I do it? Did I did I live the way that I
1:10
wanted to Live Today and have that reflection.
1:13
So we have those daily habits. They're all all of that exists
1:19
in an app that a guy downloads on his phone.
1:21
He accesses all the video calls, everything he does and
1:24
everything is not time constrained.
1:25
So a guy shows up to the same day and time weekly coaching
1:29
call every week, but the rest of it he can work into a busy
1:33
family or young adult adult schedule.
1:37
As we know, the guys we're working with are going somewhere
1:39
with their lives and trying to get this out of the way so that
1:41
they can achieve what it is the best version of themselves and
1:45
everything else that they're trying to accomplish in in
1:47
finding that king identity that God has given them in their life
1:51
to try to 0 in on that. So that's what it looks like
1:54
practically to help a guy. And our, our promise is we
1:57
believe that Jesus promised that we could be free.
2:00
And neuroscience backs that up that you can actually rewire
2:04
your brain if you prioritize the right habits, if you take the
2:07
right cognitive behavioral tools, if you explore the depths
2:11
of your story and what you need to know and understand about
2:14
where that stuff is coming from and why it still serves a
2:17
purpose in your life to be able to give that part of you what it
2:20
needs to be able to get beyond it.
2:22
You can be free and that's, that's our aim, that's our
2:25
mission, that's our goal is to be able to help guys experience
2:29
freedom within a defined time frame.
2:32
I think one of my one of my best experiences in a counseling
2:35
relationship before I started the freedom group was a 18 week
2:40
session I had with a therapist. And I knew that when I going in,
2:44
it was going to be 18 weeks long.
2:46
And so I knew the whole time that I wasn't just checking out
2:48
therapy a couple times. And I, and I also knew that it
2:51
was going to end at some point. And it was so helpful to me to
2:54
have that commitment frame of mind of knowing, OK, I'm here
2:59
for this defined time frame. I'm going to give it all I got.
3:02
I'm going to seriously engage this process.
3:04
And I also know when it's going to end.
3:06
And then and then I have the opportunity for follow up and
3:08
for more after it if I need it. But knowing that sort of start
3:12
and stop the defined time period was really, really helpful for
3:15
me in the way that I engaged that process as a man to be able
3:21
to get somewhere and to have some forward momentum there.
3:25
So, so we tried to embody that as well knowing that a lot of
3:28
guys that are in this place, they need more than 18 weeks and
3:33
they need more time to be able to work this stuff out with them
3:35
as well as building a group bond takes a long time to be able to
3:40
accomplish that. Letting resistance come up,
3:42
letting personalities mesh, guys start to go deep with one
3:46
another. So we said that 12 month time
3:49
frame is really like every guy if they applied this approach
3:52
with serious commitment could get crave free from the craving
3:57
to pornography in this time frame.
3:59
And if they don't, we'll work with them beyond that point for
4:03
$0.00 as long as they need to get craving free.
4:06
So as far as I know, we're the only ones out there that offer
4:09
that type of thing. And really it's because of, of a
4:13
firm commitment to believing again, that Jesus said that we
4:16
could have it. Neuroscience supports that.
4:18
If you deploy a process in your life, you could also have it and
4:22
actually experience rewiring your brain.
4:24
I experienced it first hand, which is the the reason at the
4:26
very beginning, I started this and think that guys deserve that
4:31
to know that, you know what, like we're going to put our
4:35
credibility, we're going to put our money, we're going to put
4:37
our well-being on the line to see your well-being furthered
4:40
and accomplished. And, and it's worked.
4:44
And so it started out as an experiment and it's been super
4:46
cool to see the way that guys have caught on to it and, and
4:50
found real life and, and freedom from it.
4:53
And to have guys experiencing the same thing that I first
4:56
experienced in my own life of holy cow, I see the world in
5:00
color and I had never realized I was seeing the world in Gray
5:03
before, it's pretty, pretty freaking sweet.
5:06
So I love doing it well. It's a big promise because
5:09
you're saying not only breaking the addiction, but breaking the
5:12
craving, which is a whole nother level.
5:13
What is your success rate? Yeah.
5:18
So we have, we have about 95% success rate right now of guys
5:22
that go through the process and, and that our assessments.
5:27
So, so we have some quantitative assessments that we give guys
5:30
that sort of judge different areas of their life or analyze
5:34
different areas or assess different areas of their life,
5:36
both, both behaviorally as well as cognitively.
5:40
How are you doing with the experience of craving?
5:43
We assess for craving, then we assess use, not, not just how
5:48
long has it been since you last acted out?
5:50
Which I think is what most men look at, men and women look at
5:53
when they're trying to figure out like, am I free or not free?
5:56
Be able to help a guy get below the surface of that, just that
6:00
physical experience. But really not just about
6:03
stopping the behavior, like you just said, it's about actually
6:07
rewiring the way that I respond to triggers, specially
6:11
emotionally uncomfortable triggers that come up in my
6:14
life. How do I react to those?
6:16
Are is it different? Is it the same and being able to
6:18
respond to those differently really ultimately makes all the
6:22
difference in lasting, lasting freedom where I never go back.
6:26
I never need it anymore because I actually experienced really
6:30
that wiring that that relationship between the
6:32
emotional cortex and the appraisal cortex being a normal
6:36
brains rewiring or wiring rather in relationship to whatever that
6:41
trigger might be. Some anxiety, discomfort,
6:45
difficult situation, difficult conversation, confrontation,
6:49
whatever it is that comes up in a guy's life that often times is
6:52
masked with just the experience of sexual arousal or the desire
6:55
to use the word we're assessing for is that stuff out of your
6:58
life? Can you experience that desire
7:00
and have these things removed from your from your experience?
7:05
And and yes, it's worked pretty well.
7:06
So. FAR 95% success rate is
7:09
astounding. That's by far better than
7:11
anything I've seen. Walk us through a little bit
7:13
more of the process, if you, if you're open to it, I want to
7:16
hear how you actually do it. Yeah, so the information really
7:20
acts as sort of the evolving process over the course of time.
7:23
So I laid out the different aspects of what we do.
7:26
The information unfolds in three main layers.
7:29
The first is understanding, craving, how it manifests in the
7:32
brain and what to do about it. This is really the this is the
7:37
cognitive behavioral therapeutic tools, things like reframing,
7:41
learning to practice presence. Slow down in the moment.
7:43
Be patient with the experience of the craving.
7:46
Let it come and go. Welcome it instead of fight or
7:49
flee so that you don't increase the triggering or the activation
7:52
of the emotional cortex in your brain.
7:54
Let it let it let start to learn to move through discomforts and
7:59
let them come and go, which which sounds really simplistic,
8:03
but I think it's really helpful to understand that you probably
8:05
know this well and, and certainly I know this through
8:07
lived experience is I got exposed to porn and started
8:11
using it regularly 7-8 years old.
8:13
That meant that pretty much every, every developmental stage
8:17
in my life, I had an easy button to escape emotional
8:21
dysregulation. Any difficult thing I
8:25
experienced, I went to porn. And so and very often that I
8:30
just moved right past the experience of the discomfort
8:33
straight to the experience of sexual arousal or the desire to
8:36
act out and just went straight there because my brain started
8:39
to associate painful or activation in your limbic cortex
8:43
relief, activation relief, activation, relief.
8:47
And so anytime that part of my brain, the fight or flight
8:49
center of my brain in particular, got activated, I
8:51
immediately just went straight to relief as soon as I could.
8:54
And that was hard wired into my thinking in the way that I
8:58
process, but also the way that my brain ran on automation.
9:02
And so being able to help a guy unpack that like you're not a
9:06
pleasure seeking buffoon. Your brain has learned, your
9:10
brain is very sophisticated, but it's also looking for the
9:13
easiest way to get you out of threat and to get you back into
9:17
rest. And if it finds an effective way
9:20
to do that, it'll have you do that again if you let it.
9:24
So how do you teach your brain a new way of finding rest and
9:27
digest in these states where you're triggered into fight or
9:30
flight? When a guy experiences craving,
9:32
he gets tunnel vision. He's locked in, He can't think
9:34
of anything else. Oftentimes he feels automated.
9:37
But there's also the physiological side of it.
9:39
There's he's his heart's beating super fast.
9:41
His, his breathing is short, his stomach is tight.
9:44
He's got energy out to his limbs.
9:46
These, these are the physiological symptoms.
9:48
And often times he's sweating his skin, skin conductance has
9:51
increased. These are physiological symptoms
9:54
of, I mean, anxiety and other, other psychological conditions,
9:58
but ultimately like a fight or flight response in the brain.
10:02
So how do you meet those moments and slow down, create liminal
10:07
space in between trigger and response and meet it
10:10
differently? And we use tools like reframing
10:13
again, practicing presence or mindfulness, using the breath to
10:18
help control and over melt whelmed minds and turn back on
10:22
activation of your appraisal cortex so you can think again.
10:26
Do you stop handing the key to the drunk driver and then be
10:28
surprised when he drives your car into the wall again?
10:32
So that's that's the first phase is really understanding what is
10:36
craving. How is it different from
10:38
temptation? How has my brain been
10:40
conditioned and habituated and desensitized into these
10:42
experiences and what to do about it?
10:44
Really. So a guy starts to be able to in
10:46
the first phase of our process, which is the 1st 20 weeks, be
10:49
able to visualize when he's in it.
10:51
Holy cow. Like this is what's happening in
10:53
my brain. This is what's happening in my
10:55
body. Here's what I could do about it.
10:58
And that's super empowering to a guys, to guys, because often
11:01
like we're fixers, we want to have a solution to the problem
11:05
and we think we know what the problem is.
11:06
And that's to stop using, right? But we keep using.
11:10
And so when I experienced that I can stop using and actually let
11:16
go of the, the experience of the arousal, I, I'm like, holy cow.
11:23
I actually know the solution. And the problem wasn't what I
11:25
thought it was. It wasn't just OK, I have to
11:27
hold on for dear life and fight against this thing to get it to
11:30
go away. So actually, I need to
11:32
acknowledge the weight of what's in me to allow it to come up in
11:36
me more fully and then move out of me and, and, and allow my
11:41
brain and body to process it the way that a normal brain and body
11:44
processes it, which is it's to let it go, to welcome it,
11:47
acknowledge it and and I'll I'll let it go.
11:50
So that's the first phase. The second phase is the process
11:54
of looking below this Neath the surface of the iceberg.
11:59
So what are the things underneath your experience that
12:03
are continuing to come up? This is this is, I mean, my, my
12:07
favorite sort of methodology here is Eddie Caporucci's inner
12:10
child model. Like that there's this, this
12:12
need to approach things from a cognitive behavioral framework,
12:16
but ultimately there's a part of us.
12:19
This is like IFS parts work type stuff.
12:22
Also that that there's a part of me that needs something and
12:26
never got that thing. So what what does it mean in
12:28
these difficult moments to start giving myself that thing that I
12:32
actually need so that I don't act out in the illegitimate way,
12:36
which is our understanding. And I think the broader
12:38
understanding of addiction, any addiction is an illegitimate act
12:41
to fill a legitimate need habituated over time without the
12:44
ability to stop on your own. So how do I, it's not just about
12:48
stopping the illegitimate act, right?
12:50
It's about learning what are my legitimate needs that I'm
12:53
feeling in this illegitimate way.
12:55
And oftentimes they're simple things like I feel overwhelmed.
12:58
How do I stop feeling overwhelmed?
13:00
Right. Well, I stopped feeling
13:02
overwhelmed by flowing down, creating that liminal space,
13:06
learning to practice being present, learning to use my
13:09
breath to drop out of a fight or flight state into rest and
13:12
digest. So you're using a lot of CBT
13:21
terms which have a lot of research support and also you
13:24
combine CBT and IFS, which is a rare combination, but one which
13:27
I've been increasingly impressed with.
13:30
It really, it really strikes me as being similar to the optimal
13:33
work approach from Doctor Kevin Majors at Harvard.
13:36
It is. Are you influenced at all by
13:37
that or where? Where did you get your research
13:39
based techniques from? I've learned a lot from doctor
13:43
Kevin Majors. Yeah, yeah, I think his stuff
13:45
is, is some of the best, like teaching education and training.
13:50
I mean, Purity is Possible is an awesome resource that we refer a
13:53
lot of guys who aren't ready to take our process seriously as
13:56
like this is a great first step to understand the language of
13:59
craving, to understand what's happening in your brain, what to
14:02
do about it, give you a lot of the helpful information as a
14:06
first step in order to be able to get to that point where
14:09
you're experiencing lasting freedom.
14:11
Yeah, so have heavily influenced love his stuff.
14:14
We we eat up his our, our team of coaches eat up their podcast
14:18
and and have all, have all worked through his purity if
14:21
possible, and some of his optimal work stuff for our own
14:23
education and benefit. What do you add that to purity
14:28
as possible and optimal work? Yeah, I mean a lot of it.
14:33
I would say the a good. We add some additional tools
14:39
like, OK, so you're in this, you're in this space, what do I
14:43
do? So one of the tools we add is
14:45
like exercising your, your no go muscle, so your basal ganglia
14:51
where you have this, this yes pathway and this no pathway.
14:54
What, what can you do each day to exercise and practice the
14:57
habit of, of saying no to small things so that you get better
15:02
and, and looking at that, that impulse to use and letting it
15:06
pass. So we use tools like that at the
15:08
towards the end of the process, but I would say the first 15
15:11
weeks really are a lot of a lot of the resources and, and the
15:16
content and the wisdom, the genius that's within purity as
15:20
possible and other resources like it that talk specifically
15:24
about craving, how to manifest in the brain and what to do
15:26
about it. So, so the the rest of our
15:28
process is about, OK, what are the other tools that I could use
15:32
here to deploy in my lived experience as I see this stuff
15:35
playing out in my brain? Holy cow, I'm here again.
15:38
This is what's happening. The craving is the intensity of
15:41
a nine on the scale. How do I welcome it?
15:44
How do I sit with that? How do I slow down?
15:46
What can I do? But not only when you're in the
15:48
experience of craving, when I'm before I get there, what can I
15:51
start habituating into my life? What can I start practicing on a
15:55
regular basis that will better increase the likelihood that
15:58
I'll be there and be able to turn on that activation of that
16:01
appraisal cortex, deactivate the emotional cortex, slow down, and
16:05
then start to think rationally again rather than become over
16:08
overcome and automated as a result of it?
16:12
Amazing. So this is a very effective
16:14
program. It relies on research based
16:16
techniques. How much does it cost?
16:19
Yeah. So we, we do our best to meet
16:22
every guy where he's at financially.
16:25
So our program, our process as all inclusive 358 bucks a month
16:30
for 12 months and then after that it's completely free.
16:33
We start meeting with guys after the 12 month process, the group
16:35
as we start meeting with guys one-on-one every other week for
16:38
as long as they need until they they basically pass the
16:41
qualitative and quantitative assessments of living a craving
16:45
free life. And so that's our offer.
16:48
So we, we also have a nonprofit arm that provides scholarships
16:51
to guys that can't afford it. So we have some guys that are in
16:53
college or in our different challenging financial
16:56
circumstances that we do our best to alleviate that financial
17:00
burden by offering them that, that scholarship.
17:04
So we, we give up to basically 50% scholarships to guys and
17:08
it's and as needed and as awarded by our nonprofit arm.
17:14
So we've, we've found that to be, we also want guys to be
17:17
serious about it. I'm sure you know this as well
17:20
as if I'm going to engage any process of healing and
17:22
restoration. I got to, I have to have skin in
17:24
the game. If it's about like, Hey, I just
17:27
like, I want you to help me and I show up every week and I'm
17:30
like, well, why aren't you helping me at the end of the
17:32
day, right? You can lead a horse to water,
17:35
but you can't make him drink. I found that like guys having
17:38
this container and and the monthly subscription model was
17:42
actually really helpful because it kind of is the, the
17:43
combination of both. I'm I'm paying a lot of money
17:46
for this thing. I had AI had a entrepreneur
17:49
mentor of mine right about four or five years ago.
17:54
It's $40,000 a year for this coaching group for to grow and
17:58
help grow his business, he said. Do you, do you think that I've
18:02
ever thought once about not making that coaching group
18:06
that's once a month? Never.
18:08
It's the only thing on my schedule that is that that
18:12
cannot be moved because I made a commitment to it.
18:15
So we found that to be similarly beneficial and we're trying to
18:18
shoot that gap. It's like we want every guy to
18:20
be able to join this and benefit from the experience and, and get
18:23
to that end goal. Our ultimately our vision and
18:26
mission is to disrupt the porn industry by removing and
18:29
liberating its users. And if we're going to do that,
18:31
that's a lot of people. So how do we get to as many
18:34
people as we possibly can by the end of my life or by the end of
18:37
the time that our work here is done in the freedom group and
18:40
join with as many people in the sort of the industry of this
18:43
healing and transformation work to help rescue other people out
18:47
of it from using it. So if we're going to do that, we
18:50
have to be able to have both. We need people who are serious
18:53
and committed to putting their resources, their time, their
18:57
effort and energy of in getting free.
18:59
But we also can't make it a barrier to entry, which I've
19:01
also seen that be the case in many of these circumstances is,
19:04
I mean, frankly, it's expensive to do this work, right?
19:06
You know, that it's like it takes a lot of time to be able
19:09
to work with people, to walk through them the whole process,
19:12
to be able to really help them experience restoration.
19:15
And if we're going to, if we're going to actually do that and
19:18
have a livelihood doing it, being people that are in the
19:21
service side of it, how do we how do we sort of find that
19:24
middle Rd. So that's our goal is to find
19:26
that middle Rd. between making it.
19:28
I mean, I know some programs that cost 40 to 50 grand a year.
19:31
If a husband and wife is going through the program, a process
19:34
of recovery together, betrayal, doing betrayal work on the
19:37
woman's part, often times do it doing addiction recovery work on
19:41
the men's part and then doing couples work together, you can
19:44
quickly rack up one heck of a bill.
19:46
So trying to be mindful of, of not bottoming out people and
19:50
increasing their need for stress in their life while also making
19:53
them take the process seriously. And and and what a good friend
19:56
of mine said the other day in a conversation is this
19:59
understanding that there is nothing more important in your
20:01
life that you could do than getting this out because my
20:05
experience is everything changes once you no longer need to cope
20:08
through your life that everything like Jesus said and
20:11
and I think it was in the the verse from the Gospel reading
20:13
yesterday is is a pick up your cross and follow me.
20:17
That's the invitation and I didn't realize that that so
20:21
often. Porn for me.
20:23
And other cravings like food, eating 10 bowls of cereal at
20:26
10:00 PM at night, getting angry and have these angry outbursts
20:30
that those were me outletting an opportunity to be able to pick
20:34
up and shoulder my cross to be able to handle discomfort.
20:38
And we, we say internally in the freedom group, one of our core
20:41
slogans is that pain is the path and discomfort is your teacher.
20:45
I never realized that I had an allergy for so long in my life
20:48
to to discomfort to any type of pain and emotional
20:53
dysregulation. And learning to be able to
20:57
harness that and not see it like like Majors talks about.
21:01
Not see it as a threat or, or as an obstacle or something that
21:05
the next experience of craving or tension or anxiety as
21:09
something that I have to just muscle through.
21:12
But it's actually an opportunity to become more the man that I
21:16
want to become, to practice being present.
21:18
Holy cow, Like I'm feeling anxious right now.
21:21
That's right. Here is an opportunity to slow
21:24
down, to breathe, and to become more regulated.
21:27
That's cool that God gives me hundreds, frankly, of
21:31
opportunities every day to become more of he who he wants
21:35
me to be. And that experience for me has
21:37
been the actualization of what I always experienced as like the
21:40
potential of who I am, the potential of being somebody and,
21:44
and as an entrepreneur, as being a husband and father of being
21:47
something more that I always experienced this and never, I
21:50
mean, it's so logical, but I never really in my own mind made
21:53
the link between or I'm missing all these opportunities to sit
21:58
in discomfort and pain And I because I go to porn or I go to
22:01
these other outlets. And if I would stop doing that,
22:04
it's not just about stopping the behavior.
22:06
It's about being able to learn how to deal with those difficult
22:09
things differently and experience the benefit on the
22:13
other end of, of, of yeah, the, the transformation and renewal.
22:18
And, and one of our favorite podcast episodes ever is, is on
22:22
Adam Young's podcast, The place we Find Ourselves.
22:26
And he talks about that, the purpose, and he got this from
22:28
Dan Allender. But the purpose of any process
22:30
of transformation, healing, counseling, any journey where
22:34
you're trying to improve or grow is ultimately not just for the
22:38
sake of freedom, he says. It's for the purpose of
22:41
unleashing your inner king. And so we've taken that on
22:44
within the freedom group and that's kind of become our
22:46
tagline is unleash your inner king.
22:49
And, and ultimately that's what it's about learning to be able
22:52
to, OK, what is the what is the territory, the ground, the
22:55
dominion that God has given me to rule as a good king?
22:59
And what does it actually look like to possess the kind of
23:02
character that can shoulder that responsibility and rule it well?
23:06
One of the quotes that we reference in the in faith moving
23:10
into phase three of our Craven free training process.
23:14
I forget that it might be Dallas Willard says that basically all
23:20
of human history can be summed up by God trying to confer on
23:24
his children responsibility and ownership of of creation and us
23:30
fumbling it away. And what is what is it going to
23:33
look like if I'm going to live my whole life and be the best
23:35
version of myself? What is it going to look like
23:38
for me to show up and not just have stopped negative behaviors,
23:42
but to have stopped negative behaviors because I'm choosing
23:45
something better. I'm choosing something else.
23:47
I'm choosing something more freeing more, I mean, frankly,
23:51
more dopamine creating, right? Something more, more actually
23:56
joyful and relieving and produces more happiness in my
23:59
life. How do I get there?
24:01
Because that's ultimately what I want and really funnels into our
24:04
core values of of physical strength, emotional resilience
24:09
and sexual integrity that all those things are about all of
24:13
who I am spiritually, emotionally, mentally and
24:16
physically. And that's really at the heart
24:18
of what we're after is because we've on on all of our coaches
24:21
on our own journeys of healing have experienced getting support
24:25
in one of those areas and it not being sufficient to be able to
24:28
deal with the whole problem. That and, and by that I mean a
24:32
really an integrated understanding that we're just
24:33
not, we're not just disembodied spirits that we are body, mind
24:40
and spirit. My favorite scripture passage.
24:42
And it's kind of like the, the cornerstone of our our whole
24:45
process and the freedom group in general is, is may the God who
24:49
is whole and whole holy, make you whole and holy, put you
24:52
together, body, mind and spirit. If he said it, he'll do it.
24:56
And I just love that. Like one God just doesn't want
24:59
our holiness. And I think that's actually been
25:01
a pendulum swing within the church that it's about form.
25:05
It's about, it's about showing up and looking like something
25:09
versus actually possessing the thing.
25:11
But it's also not just about holy wholeness, right?
25:14
And I think the rise of Eastern religion and biohacking and
25:18
health and Wellness, which is the fastest growing industry in
25:22
the country right now, is about people, particularly people in
25:26
my generation, spending exorbitant amounts of money
25:30
looking for wholeness. But the invitation, I think is
25:34
locked up in that versus that ultimate fulfillment and
25:37
experience of integration isn't just found in wholeness without
25:41
holiness, which I think has been the pendulum swing of so many
25:44
of, of people in my generation is like, I don't, I don't want
25:47
to be a, a whitewashed tomb. Like I want to figure out how
25:51
to, to be a bleeding heart. I want to figure out how to be,
25:55
I want to figure out how to be whole, right.
25:58
And they're doing that as a reaction to have grown up in
26:01
something. But just having wholeness isn't
26:05
going to create integration or fulfillment.
26:07
You need both. You need objective truth, right?
26:11
You need, you need the way that God designed and ordered the
26:14
world, body, mind and spirit to work and operate.
26:18
You need to be in in alignment with God and yourself, yourself
26:22
and others, yourself and you yourself in creation.
26:25
That that's that's real. What does holiness actually look
26:28
like? But also what does wholeness
26:30
look like? And that, that ultimately comes
26:31
down to like, like I'm talking about this body, mind and spirit
26:35
approach that we can't neglect one or the other in the process
26:39
of transformation and healing in order to stop a bad habit or do
26:43
anything in our life that's that's aligned with this
26:46
freedom, healing or transformation work.
26:48
So really that's, that's our hope and our desire and our goal
26:52
is to allow men to experience that, to experience what it
26:56
looks like to live an integrated life, body, mind and spirit
27:01
that, that I identify what's what's, what's not integrated in
27:06
my physical being, what's not integrated in my thinking or in
27:09
my thought life or my emotional life, What's not in great
27:12
integrated in my spiritual life and learned how to reintegrate
27:15
all that. What's your plan for scaling it
27:18
so you disrupt the porn industry?
27:20
Yeah, Yeah, it's a, it's a number of things.
27:24
I mean, scale fundamentally looks like more coaches and
27:28
counselors on our team working with more men going running
27:31
through our process. It also has to do with with
27:34
aligning ourselves. We're, I mean, this isn't about,
27:37
well, we have the right answer, Nobody else does.
27:39
There's so many good people working in this space.
27:42
So it's about creating partnerships and, and, and
27:45
really rising sort of a Clarion call to the whole world of you
27:49
can be free, You can engage your process.
27:52
You don't have to live under the burden of going back here again
27:55
and again. Come be free.
27:56
And so I mean, these conversations are a part of
27:59
that. It's not just driving more
28:00
people to ourselves. It's about sharing our story and
28:02
inviting more people out of the shadows.
28:05
And ultimately the desire is for wherever they go that they would
28:09
engage a process in their life to be free.
28:11
I tell every guy that has a discovery call with us is I
28:14
don't care if you join our thing.
28:16
I really don't. But just don't leave this call
28:19
and do nothing. I did nothing for way too long.
28:22
I did the classic man. OK.
28:26
My wife really wants me to get this issue under control.
28:29
I'll check out counseling a couple times, you know, And then
28:33
I stopped going. Well, yeah, I've been to
28:34
counseling. No, you haven't.
28:36
No, you haven't. It takes time to be able to do
28:39
the deep work. Give it time.
28:40
Give it. Give it a process.
28:42
So I encourage every guy. At the end of the day, it's
28:44
about engage a process. Do you have a process?
28:47
Are you submitted to a process of development in your life?
28:50
And there's so many good ones out there.
28:52
Find one, commit to it. And if it doesn't work, come
28:55
back and let's talk. Why didn't it work?
28:57
What what needed to be different, what was helpful,
28:59
what what wasn't? And so, so that's the second
29:03
layer of it. So there there's the one is the
29:04
building our team of coaches that are working with men, which
29:08
is which has really been a focus of ours over the past year.
29:12
It's also about creating partnerships with other people
29:14
in the industry. I mean, a lot of that's going to
29:16
conferences, doing these type of podcasts, aligning ourselves
29:19
with who's out there. That's really offering guys the
29:23
best of what we know of the combination of of sort of
29:27
spirituality and faith of of the what we know of in cognition and
29:32
neuroscience and psychology. And then and then the biohacking
29:36
stuff, that learning, learning to do things that are really
29:39
good for your body and brain and also your spirit and combining
29:44
all of that stuff to be able to help a guy create really again,
29:48
that integrated life. And so that's the second piece
29:50
of it. The third piece of it is the
29:59
third piece of it is about doing what I think, I mean, it's it
30:02
fits sort of into the second piece, but is is what Doctor
30:06
Doctor Patrick Carnes talks about that this works in helping
30:12
other people get free to the extent that those of us who have
30:14
experienced liberation turn around and tell our story.
30:18
So ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about it's about
30:21
sharing our story and encouraging other people to
30:24
share their story. Other people need to hear where
30:27
you've been and where you are. I love and my let's saying
30:32
you're best equipped to serve the person you used to be.
30:34
Ultimately, that's why I'm doing this work is because I know what
30:37
it feels like to be trapped. I know what it feels like for,
30:41
for 23 years to have a porn addiction and for the last 12
30:44
years to have a one to three-week cycle where I hit a
30:47
wall and can't outrun it anymore.
30:49
And then I'm pounding my head against my, my cupboard in my
30:52
bathroom or leaning my head against my, the, the mirror
30:56
after I act out. And how, why did I do that
30:58
Again, I know exactly what that feels like.
31:01
And I know the compounding effect of what that meant the
31:03
next day and then the next day and the next day as I try to
31:06
climb my way back out of the hole.
31:08
And, and, and I want other people, having experienced that,
31:11
to experience the benefit of not doing that anymore.
31:14
And feeling what it feels like to go a year of pursuing what
31:18
you're pursuing in your life, in relationships, in career, in
31:21
education, and not have that part of your story to not cope
31:26
through challenge and discomfort, but to see
31:28
discomfort and challenge as the very thing that God has allowed
31:31
you to in order to craft the character that you so
31:34
desperately desire. And so that's, that's I think
31:36
the third part of it. I think honestly the most
31:38
important part of it, whether we're coaching a guy one-on-one
31:41
in a, in a group or or talking in, in a forum like this for
31:45
whoever listens to it is at the end of the day, it's about
31:48
sharing our story and inviting people to have hope.
31:51
That's it's, it's possible to get free.
31:54
And if I can do it, you can do it too.
31:56
Because I once thought, not so many years ago, thought I would
32:00
never be free. And if you had told me that I
32:02
could experience a craving free life, I would have a hard time
32:05
imagining or believing that that was possible.
32:08
Amazing. You're also the founder of DMU.
32:11
What's that? I'm not the founder of DMU.
32:14
Actually, Lowell Seashore is the founder of DMU.
32:18
I'm happy to give that credit away.
32:20
I I work closely with them. It's a ministry that works with
32:24
college students. It's the ministry that I first
32:27
found in college, was invited to a small group.
32:29
I'd never shared my story. I'd never told anybody about my
32:33
sexual addiction or my sexual abuse in childhood or these
32:37
other negative sexual experiences that always lived in
32:40
the background of my life. Even though I was trying to be a
32:42
good little Christian boy, live out what I was supposed to as a
32:45
Catholic in my life. And and I finally found this
32:50
group of men that were just average, normal, likable guys.
32:54
But more than anything, they wanted to give their life to
32:56
Jesus. And that second group, group,
32:59
the first week was about identity and senior identity
33:02
rooted in Christ versus these beliefs that we have about
33:04
ourselves, which is an important part of reframing.
33:07
And the second week was sharing your story with sexual sin, what
33:11
they call them lustimonies. And it's the first time in my
33:14
life that I had ever told anybody else anything.
33:18
And I left that room feeling like I had the 10,000 LB gorilla
33:22
off my back. Just it was it was exposure
33:25
therapy in some degree, like heart racing, you know, blood
33:28
pumping, total fight or flight. Am I really about to do this?
33:32
And then getting beyond that and being received and like no
33:35
shame, it's OK. We, we hear you, we see you,
33:39
we're with you. And at that point in my story,
33:41
this was sophomore year of college, I, I shared about 60%
33:45
of my story, some of which I had forgotten and blocked out
33:47
because it was really painful. Some of it I just in that moment
33:52
didn't feel comfortable or brave enough to share.
33:54
So I shared about 60%. We went through the rest of that
33:57
eight week or nine week program. And then we went on what's
34:00
called a steps to freedom retreat or a freedom retreat and
34:04
which is basically a life inventory confession.
34:06
What are what are going back and examining all the different
34:09
parts of my life where I've given way ownership of of my
34:14
life to to evil or to do things that aren't Jesus.
34:19
And how do I take back ownership of in Jesus name of those
34:22
different parts of my life when the confession at that end of
34:25
that retreat gave it all away and left left that retreat
34:28
feeling like totally liberated and free.
34:31
And and the way that I was actually just talking with a a
34:33
coach there on their team yesterday.
34:38
And he often times describes that process for college
34:41
students like an inflection point that it really that often
34:45
times it we joke in that program or process that is 100% six fail
34:51
rate that every guy goes through that process and finds himself
34:55
acting out again. But for every single guy, it
34:58
creates this experience of being seen and known and what freedom
35:02
tastes like. It looks like that.
35:04
I've never seen any other program to be able to replicate
35:08
with guys from religious backgrounds and non religious
35:11
backgrounds to just experience in a in a community of a close
35:15
knit community of peers to experience in a, in a with non
35:19
Christianese language. Just like here's the gospel
35:22
message presented through the lens of this part of your story
35:26
that so many men, 80 plus percent of men today have as a
35:30
part of their experience as and often times is the primary pain
35:35
point that's causing them to not believe they can have a
35:37
relationship with Jesus. Why is Jesus still relevant to
35:42
your story? Why does why does it matter?
35:44
And have them be able to receive that creates this deep
35:47
inflection point where for me, I was going, I was faith was no
35:51
longer important to me. I was starting to go off in a
35:54
different way. I was trying to find myself and
35:56
find a way for myself in the world and was doing a lot to try
35:59
to accomplish that there and seen some some benefit of it in
36:03
my own life in terms of what it was creating for me in terms of
36:06
worldly gain. But I found this community of
36:08
men that were doing doing it differently and still wanted to
36:12
go somewhere with their life and see that they had potential and
36:15
wanted to grow in that potential, but also wanted to
36:18
have this inflection point of not needing to live in hiding
36:21
anymore. And we're willing to expose and,
36:24
and sort of open that up. So the dangerous Men works all
36:27
over the country, guys. Guys can order the books from
36:30
the DMU website, start a group on their own.
36:33
It's an awesome, again, sort of shorter term program that can be
36:36
entirely peer LED. And then the team of coaches and
36:40
I and I do this a couple times of year still.
36:43
We'll go around and lead those freedom retreats for guys after
36:47
they go through that, the small group process.
36:49
So like I said, it's the, it's the best framework that I've
36:52
found to like, OK, how do you get some guy off the street, if
36:55
you will, to start talking about this part of his story, to start
37:00
talking about his faith in a way that's relevant to him, to start
37:04
to start living as if it has deep meaning for his life.
37:07
Again, nothing in my experience has replicated that.
37:10
And so, so I love being a part of it and being a part of that
37:12
team to help get that, that, that message and that experience
37:17
out to more men. I was at a retreat, freedom
37:20
retreat at Ohio State for 130 young men last fall.
37:28
And not, there's really nothing like it watching guys go off and
37:32
do the work of taking back ownership of their life and
37:37
examining all these things that have occurred or have been done
37:40
to them or that they participated in.
37:43
That they've either developed a victim complex to or that
37:46
they've just given away control or they feel like they're just,
37:49
it's become unmanageable, whatever.
37:51
And often times some big things, but often times small things,
37:54
little ways that they've sort of given over control and learning
37:58
to, to take that back and say, you know what, like actually, I,
38:03
I, this is my life. I have to choose.
38:05
I have to decide in an authority of Jesus, I can take back
38:09
ownership and experience wholeness again.
38:11
And then what does that process look like beyond it, which
38:13
honestly, the freedom group sort of spun out of that experience.
38:17
I had experienced that inflection point in my life.
38:19
And then what is lasting freedom look like, which I contended for
38:23
for about 15 years after that period of time, often times not
38:29
doing much about it, to be honest, but then but always
38:32
trying to. I was working in ministry or
38:34
working in in different entrepreneurial pursuits, trying
38:38
to work that out in me as one of my primary pain points in life.
38:43
And when I started to find it, actually find the answer, that
38:46
was So what was so liberating to me and what ultimately led to
38:49
the creation of the freedom group was, was that evolution?
38:53
What you do with the freedom group is amazing.
38:55
I'm so happy for you and I congratulate you on on your work
38:58
and I hope you continue to do it and reach many people.
39:01
I'm going to keep you in mind and promote you because I
39:03
haven't heard anything that has that success rate.
39:06
And just from a practical perspective, I think you're
39:08
absolutely right that it does take long time and also
39:11
intensity of work, both education and the individual
39:16
follow up. So I don't know anything that
39:17
combines those. Thanks a lot, Joe.
39:20
Yeah, absolutely.