Latest / Crosstabs / The Way Back w/ Rep. Emerson Levy

Transcript

The Way Back w/ Rep. Emerson Levy · Crosstabs

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so Brian usually starts these, but he's not here.
0:03
SPEAKER_02: And so I don't actually ever know how to start a podcast.
0:06
SPEAKER_02: But I'll just say we're here with Representative Emerson Levy.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: On your Crosstabs podcast.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: I will give you a kickoff.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for making the time.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: We've been trying to plan our episodes better.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: It's not working, but we're trying.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: And I want to do at least one interview a month.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: And so now I've hit my quota.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: But
0:27
SPEAKER_02: We're here in session.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: And so the opportunities for interviews are just really through the roof.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: And so we're going to try to do a lot of them this month.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: And this is when Brian doesn't, it's not that he didn't want to be here.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: It's just that he's in Arizona for the weekend.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: And so he can't.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: So it's just you and me.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Am I your first Democrat?
0:47
SPEAKER_02: No, you're not our first Democrat.
0:49
I'm trying to remember who we had on that was,
0:51
but you're the first Democrat of this year.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll take that.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: And you're the first interview of the year as well.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: Gold star.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: So yes,
1:01
SPEAKER_02: many people are demanding,
1:02
SPEAKER_02: and I've been getting many texts demanding to have you on the podcast.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: So I'm appreciated that you are willing to make the time.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: You're like, as in one person, you, you asked me to go on the podcast.
1:13
No,
1:13
I got,
1:13
I did get a text from at least one other person that I could,
1:16
I can remember.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:19
SPEAKER_02: so when I asked you what's going on in kind of in your world,
1:22
SPEAKER_02: of course,
1:22
we worked together quite a bit when I was working for Senator
1:27
Knope and still as
1:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm working for Representative Breeze Iverson,
1:30
SPEAKER_02: and we love working with you in your office because
1:34
I think you approach things from a very common sense
1:36
perspective,
1:37
which I like.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: But one of the things that wasn't necessarily on my radar,
1:41
AI is taking off and I'm having to use it because we have giant
1:47
omnibus bills in
1:48
SPEAKER_02: housing that I'm trying to understand and cannot.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: And so I have to write our housing memos for our Republicans.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm using AI to help me synthesize this language.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: And if you drop a bill in there,
2:01
SPEAKER_02: especially with Google Gemini,
2:02
SPEAKER_02: you take the PDF of the introduced bill,
2:04
you take the PDF of the Dash Amendment and you ask it to apply
2:07
the amendment and
2:08
SPEAKER_02: then tell you the effect.
2:09
It's pretty good at giving you like a good synopsis of if I
2:14
just redlined the bill myself.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: So AI is really taking off,
2:17
but it sounds like you have a bill that is specifically dealing
2:22
with protections
2:23
SPEAKER_02: for children around AI.
2:25
And so can you walk me through how you got to introducing this
2:29
concept and why it's important?
2:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
2:31
I think you point out really good features of AI and AI is
2:36
important and AI is here
2:37
SPEAKER_01: and we're not trying to say AI is bad.
2:40
I use it all the time for a lot of the same things that you're
2:42
mentioning.
2:43
I use it when I'm doing the lesson plan or things like that to
2:46
get me going.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: And that to me is the key part of AI.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: It's efficiency, quick thinking.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: It's not a replacement for those things,
2:55
SPEAKER_01: but it makes us more efficient,
2:56
SPEAKER_01: especially when we all have very,
2:58
SPEAKER_01: very busy jobs.
2:59
But we're also grownups and we have our prefrontal cortex fully
3:04
developed.
3:04
And we,
3:06
you know,
3:07
we know what we're asking and we know that we're using it for
3:11
work.
3:11
But what we're seeing with our youth is it's specifically these
3:15
chatbot companions.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: And I want to give representative, I'm sorry, not representative anymore.
3:19
Senator Lisa Reynolds has started her committee and she's been
3:22
working on this as
3:23
SPEAKER_01: well with Representative Wallen and Representative Dobson.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: our kind of our mom group that's working on this.
3:31
And so it's a chatbot companions that are talking to our kids
3:34
about their mental health.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: So when this first really became really on our radar,
3:40
it was a California situation where the chatbot gave
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instructions to write a note
3:48
SPEAKER_01: about suicide to a child.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And this child acted upon this.
3:55
And at no point was the child directed to 988 or,
3:59
you know,
3:59
that kind of things.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's why Lines for Life is involved in this bill.
4:03
And so we know that 72% of kids in ages 13 to 17 have used AI
4:10
companion chatbots.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: And I've never used it for, like, how am I feeling, right?
4:16
SPEAKER_01: I use it.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Can you explain what this term means?
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, can you summarize this bill?
4:22
But our kids are using it for not only for emotions,
4:28
but also I would say sexual curiosity.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: And that is opening them up to people that are not safe.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
4:34
So what we're asking for in this bill is to have guardrails
4:40
that if a kid is
4:43
SPEAKER_01: talking about these issues that they're directed to –
4:46
SPEAKER_01: a 988 or services.
4:48
Now we're seeing that happen more and more,
4:50
but it doesn't happen all the time.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I was on there the other day and I was like, let's try this out.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And I said, why do I feel X, Y, and Z?
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, let's just see what it says.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: it used personal pronouns.
5:03
It freaked me out so much that I almost jumped back,
5:06
right,
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from the computer.
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SPEAKER_01: It said, I'm here for you.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm here to talk to you.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: But so when you think about a kid that doesn't maybe have a healthy home
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SPEAKER_01: environment,
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SPEAKER_01: and someone saying,
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SPEAKER_01: I hear you,
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SPEAKER_01: I see you,
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SPEAKER_01: I know you,
5:20
SPEAKER_01: it can create this,
5:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if parasocial is the right relationship,
5:25
SPEAKER_01: but so that kind of power,
5:27
SPEAKER_01: or maybe you can be able to ask people
5:31
SPEAKER_01: a chat bot about something you don't want to ask your parents about,
5:33
SPEAKER_01: which is when we talk to the police,
5:34
SPEAKER_01: that's kind of where it starts.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: It kind of starts maybe in an innocent,
5:38
SPEAKER_01: more curious place,
5:39
SPEAKER_01: but it doesn't always end up there in the end.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: There has to be guardrails.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: And I think you bring up a really good point.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: So a couple of questions.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: Are the companions different than the chatbots?
5:50
SPEAKER_02: Are there two sectors of AI?
5:53
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm trying to understand, does it cover all of them, I guess?
5:59
SPEAKER_02: Would it cover a chat GPT, a Google Gemini, a Claude, a Grok or whatever?
6:04
And then any other new product that's coming on the scene as
6:08
well that may have a
6:09
SPEAKER_02: picture component or a speaking component also?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
6:12
the really cool part about this bill is we were able to work
6:15
with a nonprofit that
6:17
SPEAKER_01: just does this tech stuff.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: They used to work at Facebook and Google,
6:20
and they have provided us this technical assistance in a way
6:23
that I just don't have
6:24
SPEAKER_01: that information.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how this stuff works.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: So I can say the answer is yes, but I can't explain the tech around it.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: But it really, so for any AI, so when I tested this, I was on ChatGPT.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: And I was surprised to see those amount of personal problems.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: that amount of personal pronouns on ChatGPT,
6:42
SPEAKER_01: which is,
6:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:42
SPEAKER_01: I would say people see it more as an academic thing.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: I know the other ones are even more personal.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So anyone who's engaging in an artificial intelligence way with a youth,
6:55
but our tech person on the hearing does a much better job of
6:58
explaining it.
6:59
But I don't know how we would have done this bill without their
7:01
help because it's
7:02
SPEAKER_01: just so technical.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: No, 100%.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think too,
7:05
SPEAKER_02: it's a really smart look because I'm thinking about like,
7:10
SPEAKER_02: I didn't get a phone until later.
7:11
You know,
7:12
I was homeschooled and we were a little bit more restrictive in
7:15
my house.
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SPEAKER_02: So I don't think I had a phone until I was 15 or 16.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: And my first phone was an iPhone.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: So I didn't even have like the just traditional phone.
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SPEAKER_02: phone first because at that point I was already working for my dad.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: But you have kids growing up doing a lot of texting,
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SPEAKER_02: doing a lot of messaging,
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SPEAKER_02: doing a lot of Snapchat and things like that.
7:36
So I think the chatbots look like the kind of communication
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they are used to with real people.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: And also I think as a society,
7:46
SPEAKER_02: we are a lonelier society.
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We're a more secluded society right now because of technology
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and advancements like that.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: And so if you're feeling lonely,
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SPEAKER_02: not just as an adult,
7:57
SPEAKER_02: but also especially as a child,
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SPEAKER_02: you're texting with,
8:00
SPEAKER_02: you're texting,
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SPEAKER_02: you're texting.
8:02
And if it's using personal pronouns,
8:04
it feels like a person or somebody with a personality.
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And unfortunately,
8:10
I think you see folks,
8:12
I saw an article about even an adult
8:14
that got sucked into a relationship with like a chat bot and it
8:18
totally screwed up
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SPEAKER_02: their marriage and totally screwed up their life and all this stuff.
8:22
And I think those cases are rare,
8:24
but it's not a reason not to be cautious.
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And it's not a reason not to look at what can we do to make
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sure we're protecting
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SPEAKER_02: people as much as possible.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
8:32
SPEAKER_01: and I say,
8:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: what I've learned about from the chatbots,
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SPEAKER_01: especially with kids looking at explicit content,
8:37
SPEAKER_01: we're not really tackling that in this bill.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: But I just, like, want parents to know it's a problem.
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SPEAKER_01: And I found out it was a problem from our Ben PD, our Redmond PD.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: So that they're seeing it arrive in a bad place.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: It starts here, but ends here.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Ugh.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't aware of that until really just a few weeks ago.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: So that's up next.
9:00
That's harder because that's content regulation and we don't
9:02
want to regulate content.
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SPEAKER_01: We're running afoul with the First Amendment.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: It's tricky.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: It's tricky.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: But this bill just says if a child,
9:09
SPEAKER_01: a minor,
9:10
is engaging in words with the AI chatbot that might be thinking
9:18
of harming
9:19
SPEAKER_01: themselves,
9:20
SPEAKER_01: that they're encouraged to go to 988 and that
9:23
SPEAKER_01: They are encouraged to talk to a real human about their problems.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: All right.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: Something to watch for in 2027, maybe coming soon.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: So you're co-chair of the Natural Resource Subcommittee.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the reasons we get to work closely with you.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: The Natural Resource Agencies, there's 17 of them.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Really 14 main ones.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: 14, okay.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: And those are some budgets that are,
9:49
SPEAKER_02: I think,
9:49
SPEAKER_02: super impactful to a lot of,
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SPEAKER_02: especially suburban and rural Oregon.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
9:55
SPEAKER_02: I think there's obviously stuff that affects urban Oregonians as well,
9:57
SPEAKER_02: but these are mostly,
9:58
SPEAKER_02: these are rural and they have significant rural impacts.
10:03
Talk to me about how natural resources fits into the larger
10:07
budget picture and
10:09
SPEAKER_02: what's your goal or your
10:11
idea about where you'd like to go with natural resource
10:14
agencies in that kind of
10:15
SPEAKER_02: direction of the subcommittee,
10:17
SPEAKER_02: maybe.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: I love this.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: No one has ever asked me this before.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: So,
10:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:21
SPEAKER_01: our natural resource agencies are everything from,
10:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:24
SPEAKER_01: what you hear about a lot like DEQ,
10:25
SPEAKER_01: but also,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: fish and wildlife,
10:27
SPEAKER_01: dogami,
10:28
SPEAKER_01: that's mining and minerals,
10:31
SPEAKER_01: which is really relevant right now.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: Lots of different OWEB, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: That's where you, that's how we get money to communities for clean water.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: all of those things are really important.
10:43
And so our natural resource agencies have been hit pretty hard,
10:47
if I want to back up to 2008.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So back to the Great Recession,
10:53
what happened at that time in the budget history is that the
10:57
natural resources had
10:58
SPEAKER_01: a bigger chunk of the general fund pie.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: Right now we've got a little under 3%,
11:03
which is really small for a state that kind of prides itself in
11:06
natural beauty.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: When you look at
11:09
SPEAKER_01: Oregon values and beliefs.
11:10
It's the thing that all people,
11:13
regardless of political party,
11:14
have in common with Oregon.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: They love the beauty of Oregon.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: They love our state parks.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: They love being able to get outside easily.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: But it's not something we really invest heavily in at all.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: So the recession hits.
11:29
people still need permits they still need to do life you know
11:33
with water they still
11:34
need to grow food and so the regulated community took on you
11:39
know a lot of that fee
11:41
responsibility with the hope that eventually as we made more
11:44
money you know and
11:46
SPEAKER_01: that as the recession got better or waned that
11:50
SPEAKER_01: the state would come in with more.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: So that never happened.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:55
I think this year was the first time with the Water Resources
11:58
Department that we
11:58
actually put like a general fund in to like defer permitting
12:01
costs because
12:03
SPEAKER_01: You know,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: if you're especially,
12:05
SPEAKER_01: we know our farmers in Eastern Oregon are struggling with drought.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:09
The fee increase that they wanted to put in would have taken
12:12
like a $6,000 permit
12:13
SPEAKER_01: into $15,000 territory,
12:15
SPEAKER_01: which is like,
12:16
SPEAKER_01: that's a different number,
12:17
SPEAKER_01: right?
12:19
And so we were able to get general fund investment thanks to
12:21
Owens and Helm.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: really proud of that investment.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: And so that's,
12:27
SPEAKER_01: my vision is really twofold,
12:28
SPEAKER_01: is really to stabilize the budgets,
12:31
SPEAKER_01: to rely less on the regulated community.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: You know,
12:35
SPEAKER_01: when I say regulated community,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: I know we're also talking about the intels of the world,
12:38
but I'm really talking about the farmers that have been bearing
12:40
the brunt in the ag
12:41
SPEAKER_01: community,
12:42
SPEAKER_01: to see like where we can come in,
12:44
SPEAKER_01: kind of outside the box thinking.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: But I also want
12:48
SPEAKER_01: people in the state to know what these agencies are doing.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Fish and wildlife is about to be one of the first states ever,
12:54
SPEAKER_01: is my understanding,
12:55
SPEAKER_01: to delist an endangered species.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: So they're doing great work.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: They're piping canals.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: They're doing work that is not maybe exciting,
13:04
but to people but it's important like all the work that they've
13:07
done to stop fires
13:08
and prescribe burns and so i want to like start telling stories
13:11
and encouraging
13:12
agencies to tell the stories of what they're doing you know
13:15
like you know would we
13:16
know about juniper sucking up water if we didn't have this job
13:19
100 we wouldn't i i
13:21
wouldn't no right and so like that's like i want to start
13:24
telling more stories so
13:25
SPEAKER_01: people realize the value that
13:28
SPEAKER_01: that these agencies have that they do so much with so little.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: And I know that they can also improve.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And we're really working on that.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: We're really building relationships.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think we call it the fun committee because we do have a good time,
13:38
SPEAKER_01: but also we work really collaboratively.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: And I've just seen agencies improve.
13:43
We still have ways to go with permitting times and things like
13:45
that,
13:45
but like we're on it.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: I spent some time obviously doing not true journalism,
13:50
but I was writing at Oregon Catalyst and I was trying to learn
13:53
how to write stories
13:54
SPEAKER_02: and stuff like that.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: And so those instincts all kicked in when the DEQ hack got reported.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: And so we won't get into that today,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: but I think that's just kind of one of those fascinating examples of...
14:05
things that just happen that you don't even plan for that end
14:08
up taking a lot of
14:09
agency resources that end up resulting in a budget
14:12
appropriation and stuff you have
14:13
SPEAKER_02: to manage around.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of interesting.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: I also think that like the natural resource agencies,
14:20
SPEAKER_02: like one of my favorite is Department of Forestry,
14:23
SPEAKER_02: because we have obviously in our district,
14:24
SPEAKER_02: we have Mojico Forest,
14:25
SPEAKER_02: but there's a lot even on the
14:27
And I'd say even on the west side of the state,
14:29
there's just a lot of trees,
14:30
a lot of trees.
14:31
SPEAKER_02: And we've had fires.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: And so talking about, you know, how to be...
14:36
SPEAKER_02: effective users of dollars.
14:38
And one of the authorities that are out there that have been
14:40
talked a long time
14:41
SPEAKER_02: about is Good Neighbor Authority.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: And if we invest a little bit of state dollars in, we can get a lot out.
14:47
We can get a lot done on federal land,
14:49
which has been a big problem in terms of managing.
14:52
And so there's definitely there's there's hundreds of
14:54
opportunities like that all
14:55
SPEAKER_02: throughout these natural resource agencies.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: but it does require upfront dollars.
14:59
That's not a fee-based thing that you can,
15:01
that's not something you can fund with fees.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: So I love that that is the direction.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: We'll see, obviously, the budget is big.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Education,
15:09
SPEAKER_02: corrections,
15:10
human services really suck up a lot of the energy and
15:13
everything else is the kicker
15:15
SPEAKER_02: and everything else,
15:16
SPEAKER_02: right?
15:16
SPEAKER_02: And so there's all these competing interests,
15:20
SPEAKER_02: but you get to go up there and bat for the natural resource interests.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: For the little guy, yeah.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: For the little guy, absolutely.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
15:26
um i think the last thing um to talk about because i pushed
15:30
brian pretty hard to
15:31
shorten up our episodes so my goal is like 30-ish minutes and i
15:34
generally find that
15:35
each topic takes about 10 minutes if you're going to be
15:37
thorough which i think you
15:38
know we do a pretty good job at can i add one more thing about
15:41
the cyber attacks
15:42
first i think when we talk about changing agencies and how they
15:45
interact with the
15:46
SPEAKER_01: legislature you know when rep reese iverson went pretty hard at deq
15:51
SPEAKER_01: um,
15:51
with the lack of information and how we were getting emails and
15:54
we didn't have
15:54
information the way that the agency took responsibility and
15:57
they didn't dance
15:58
SPEAKER_01: around it.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: I was impressed by that.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: They,
16:01
SPEAKER_01: they,
16:02
they apologized and they said we've learned and they didn't
16:04
pretend that it didn't
16:05
SPEAKER_01: go wrong.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: I, I, I think is also a reflection of change.
16:11
And other agencies should look at that and watch how that went
16:14
and say,
16:15
okay,
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Maybe taking responsibility kind of sucks,
16:18
SPEAKER_02: but it also results in we move beyond it faster and we build,
16:24
SPEAKER_02: I want to say build back better,
16:25
SPEAKER_02: but as a Republican,
16:26
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I can't say that.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: I heard you say it.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: But I did just say it.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: So there it is.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:31
So one of the topics and one of the things I've been trying to
16:35
share with a lot of
16:36
SPEAKER_02: people,
16:37
SPEAKER_02: I was a little bit,
16:38
SPEAKER_02: we'll say,
16:38
SPEAKER_02: well,
16:38
I was a little vocal during the last election cycle about being
16:41
supportive of a
16:42
SPEAKER_02: candidate that was opposite of the party of mine.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about Tobias Reed, who's now Secretary of State.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: And he's doing...
16:48
SPEAKER_02: I think he's...
16:49
My observation is he is both defending the Democratic values
16:55
that he strongly
16:56
SPEAKER_02: believes in.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: And I agree with him on almost all of those points.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: And he's doing that.
17:01
And I think that that is because of where the Republican Party
17:03
is at right now.
17:03
It's kind of pushing them and making them feel like he's just
17:08
pushing a party line.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: But I don't think that's why he's out there doing it.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: And then...
17:12
SPEAKER_02: He's also doing things like cleaning up the voter rolls.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: And so then recently,
17:17
SPEAKER_02: this was like maybe in the last week,
17:20
SPEAKER_02: he published his fiscal year 2027 audit plan for performance audits.
17:25
And I think they went in deep on some new criteria and some
17:28
things about how these
17:29
SPEAKER_02: are going to be audits that aren't chosen based on politics.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Like there was an audit...
17:34
a few years ago that maybe a former disgraced secretary of
17:37
state picked up on the
17:39
SPEAKER_02: mortgage interest deduction.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: And I think both sides looked at that and went,
17:42
SPEAKER_02: that appears to be maybe more of a political audit than anything else,
17:46
SPEAKER_02: right?
17:46
SPEAKER_02: And so looking at these audits,
17:49
SPEAKER_02: There's obviously still politics involved because it's all politics.
17:52
But what I observe about these different audits is that they
17:55
all are things that
17:56
SPEAKER_02: have been major news stories in the last year or two that need follow up,
18:02
which is what an audit can be effective at doing and that the
18:05
legislature needs
18:06
SPEAKER_02: more information on.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: in order to implement reforms or hold agencies accountable.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Like a great example,
18:12
SPEAKER_02: obviously,
18:13
we had the 2023 and the Canopen Republican offices we're
18:18
talking about release the
18:19
SPEAKER_02: list,
18:19
SPEAKER_02: right?
18:20
SPEAKER_02: And the running of OLCC and what's going on there.
18:22
And they are doing an audit of the distilled spirit program
18:25
that was kind of at issue.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: There's actually looks like two audits in the Department of Education,
18:32
SPEAKER_02: both one with school district funding and then high school graduation.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: And those are when you talk about education, my guess.
18:39
And here's where I open it up to you because I've been talking
18:41
for 20 minutes straight here.
18:43
You're probably hearing about graduation rates and you're
18:46
probably hearing about
18:47
SPEAKER_02: school funding in your district.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, absolutely.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: So my daughter is a fifth grader.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, actually, she goes to a tremendous school.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: But she goes to a magnet school, which allows for creativity.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: Like if I can just brag for just a second.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: Like this week, they launched to Mars.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, pretend.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: So they got little hats.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: And we had all the parents.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And I missed it.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's the hard part of this job is I miss a lot of this stuff.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Hold signs like, brush your teeth.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, we'll miss you.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: And they launched off.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: And the teachers are dressed in, like, little spacesuits.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: And the parents, like, worked forever.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: I only came for...
19:29
five hours one day and like got one part of the Mars habitat
19:34
done like weeks and weeks of work.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the school looks like Mars.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: And they lifted off.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: And this week they're going into the habitat where,
19:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:42
SPEAKER_01: they've got plants growing on Mars and,
19:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:44
SPEAKER_01: we built little igloos.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: So it looks like a habitat.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like if we made more space for schools like this,
19:52
SPEAKER_01: for a creative,
19:54
SPEAKER_01: there's a Scottish storyline.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: So everything's taught through a story.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Um,
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And anticipation is built into the storyline, right?
20:00
SPEAKER_01: So you get kids excited to go to school.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Their school has an 84% reading rate.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: It's one of the highest in the state.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, this model is wonderful.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And I,
20:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:11
SPEAKER_01: I balk sometimes when people say like school choice,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: because I feel like it's always outside of the public school system.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: And I get worried about who's left behind, right?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: But as far as one size fits all, it just doesn't work.
20:25
And we've been the beneficiaries of a school outside of the
20:30
traditional model.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's worked really well for our family.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: And so I think, I mean, I hear people say, oh, kids don't learn the same.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: But like, what are we doing about it?
20:40
SPEAKER_02: I was on the board of a public charter school.
20:42
This was pre-COVID when I lived in Medford called Logos Public
20:45
Charter School.
20:46
And the community that kind of really wanted to be involved
20:49
with that school was
20:50
SPEAKER_02: homeschool because it was a hybrid school we had.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: classrooms and you'd come in one or two days a week.
20:54
And then we'd also send teachers out directly into the homes to
20:57
work with students.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: But it was a public charter.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: It was authorized under, I think, the Medford School District.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: And it was really successful.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: We had to hire a lobbyist with the money that we get.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: So we get state school fund for each student,
21:12
but there's a percentage that gets taken out by the district
21:15
for administration
21:16
SPEAKER_02: fees.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: And so it's 5%.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: Um,
21:18
SPEAKER_02: it's 5% for the younger kids and it's up to 15% for,
21:21
SPEAKER_02: uh,
21:22
SPEAKER_02: some of the high school kids,
21:22
SPEAKER_02: which doesn't,
21:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:24
SPEAKER_02: that needs to be changed,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: but that's a different topic.
21:25
But we had to hire a lobbyist to battle ODE to make sure that
21:29
our school could stay
21:29
SPEAKER_02: open because the hybrid model doesn't exist in statute.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: They have statute for brick and mortar.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: They have statute for virtual.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: They don't have it.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: So they exist in a gray area.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: And I think I haven't checked in in a bit.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: I think they still exist in a gray area.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of opportunities and the
21:44
SPEAKER_02: The authorizing legislation,
21:46
SPEAKER_02: I forget the bill number,
21:47
SPEAKER_02: but it was in the late 90s to authorize charter schools said the point is
21:53
SPEAKER_02: experimentation.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: It's not to undermine public schools.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: It's to find what works and to expand on it.
21:58
And maybe some of that gets copied into public school and maybe
22:01
it doesn't.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: And all of that is OK.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, audits like this.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: Flexibility is the name of the game.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: We're learning it in terms of remote and hybrid.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: We're experimenting with hybrid at the legislature.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
22:13
SPEAKER_02: we have folks,
22:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:16
SPEAKER_02: in Ways and Means this morning,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: there was voting that was virtual.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: And so those things are things that we are learning and adapting to do.
22:23
And I think it should be planned and it doesn't need to be
22:26
fast,
22:26
but it needs to be done anyway.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, those in terms of education, I think that is irrelevant.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: There's also I mean, honestly,
22:34
And just sitting here in the legislature,
22:36
we spent,
22:37
what was it,
22:37
five years under construction?
22:39
SPEAKER_02: When you came in, CAMHS was happening, right?
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I'd never been to the Capitol not under construction until this week.
22:46
I mean,
22:46
I guess we're technically still under construction,
22:48
but it's open.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Finishing work, basically.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: And so he's going to audit CAMHS.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: And frankly,
22:53
SPEAKER_02: I think that is,
22:54
SPEAKER_02: if the legislature approves your budget,
22:57
SPEAKER_02: which is true for every agency,
22:58
SPEAKER_02: including the Secretary of State,
23:00
SPEAKER_02: That is a gutsy audit to put on the list.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: But I do think that we were over budget a couple times.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Some of that,
23:07
there's going to be a section in the audit about Senator Tim
23:09
Canope demanding that
23:10
the floors stay open and how much that delayed and increased
23:13
project costs.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, he's going to be in there.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: But there,
23:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure,
23:16
SPEAKER_02: were other things that delayed the timeline,
23:19
SPEAKER_02: things they discovered about this old,
23:21
SPEAKER_02: old,
23:21
old building that they did not know until they started breaking
23:24
ground,
23:24
all that stuff.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: But I think even just having an accounting of that,
23:28
SPEAKER_02: not necessarily to blame anybody,
23:29
SPEAKER_02: but just let the public know,
23:31
SPEAKER_02: here's why it costs more.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: Here's what happened.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: Was there mismanagement?
23:35
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I think that that's relevant.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: I think that's reasonable.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: I will say that I was also part of the delay because for Waz,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: for Representative Wynn,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: who passed away in October,
23:45
SPEAKER_01: we really wanted to have her ceremony on the House floor.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: And so they had to pause stuff to do that.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: But we were pretty insistent that it be, you know, where her home was.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's on the House side, not on the Senate.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: I admit to contributing to the problem.
24:01
Frankly,
24:01
I think that the House,
24:04
I believe,
24:05
did meet one time on the Senate floor.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
24:08
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
24:09
And I think that maybe I asked the clerk that maybe the first
24:14
time in history that
24:15
SPEAKER_02: that has ever happened.
24:16
Frankly,
24:16
I think if Peter Courtney were here,
24:18
he wouldn't have allowed it.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: I know they were talking about it at one point,
24:21
SPEAKER_02: but I can't imagine him ever going along with that.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: I think the House should have not shown up to that floor session.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: How dare the Senate be the preferred floor?
24:30
SPEAKER_02: It's smaller.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: It is cool.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I like their, I worked there.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: The wood is nicer.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, the walnut.
24:36
But I just think there's some of those things that it's okay to
24:39
just be like,
24:39
no,
24:39
you know what?
24:40
We're the House and we meet on the House floor and we don't
24:42
have to meet on the Senate floor.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully we never have to do that again.
24:46
But yeah,
24:46
it'll be interesting to see some of the results of these
24:48
audits.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I know I asked,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: we were on the phone with Ben,
24:55
and I was talking about it really would be great to be on the
24:57
house floor.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: And Ben was like, yeah, we'll ask.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Let's see if we're not sure if we can.
25:04
And then my daughter,
25:04
who's at 10,
25:05
was 10 at the time,
25:06
goes,
25:06
can't or won't.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: To the majority leader, who we both love.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people say we can't do it and they do mean we won't do it.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: And that's right.
25:19
And that's why I think here one of the things that the skills
25:22
that you have to
25:23
SPEAKER_02: learn is to be willing to push back respectfully with data,
25:27
SPEAKER_02: with a good argument,
25:29
SPEAKER_02: because I think sometimes people say no because that's easier.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: It's easier to say no to a controversial bill.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: It's easier to say no to increased funding.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: It's easier to say no to cuts.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: It's easier to say no to changing a law.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: But
25:43
SPEAKER_02: sometimes things do need to change.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: And so I think continually to,
25:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:48
SPEAKER_02: for people,
25:48
SPEAKER_02: for staff,
25:49
SPEAKER_02: for legislators,
25:50
SPEAKER_02: be willing to dig in,
25:51
SPEAKER_02: know your stuff first,
25:52
SPEAKER_02: right?
25:53
SPEAKER_02: Know your arguments,
25:54
SPEAKER_02: show up with those arguments,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: make them,
25:57
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:57
SPEAKER_02: effectively and make them forcefully but respectfully.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's what the system,
26:03
SPEAKER_02: that's what democracy,
26:05
SPEAKER_02: that's what self-governance is all about.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think it gives us the opportunity to improve stuff.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: I like the audit list.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: I think it's good.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: I think when you ask Oregonians what they want,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: they want to know where their money goes,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: just like in their everyday life.
26:21
And I think that maybe the misnomer is that the legislature
26:26
doesn't want that.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that's true.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I think we want the information to do better and to do better every day.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And I do think,
26:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:33
SPEAKER_02: just as you're in natural resources,
26:34
SPEAKER_02: there's going to be folks in public safety that say,
26:36
SPEAKER_02: hey,
26:36
SPEAKER_02: we've got some problems and we also need general fund.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: And there's in all these different sectors and nobody's wrong.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: It's just about how do we strike a balance that's reasonable?
26:45
SPEAKER_02: How do we strike a balance?
26:46
SPEAKER_02: That's responsive to Oregonians.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: How do we strike a balance?
26:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
26:49
SPEAKER_02: if we invested heavily in wildfire prevention,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: it's going to look like a lot of dollars up front.
26:55
But the back end benefit on that could be massive,
26:58
massive and absolutely changing.
27:01
And it could take Oregon back to where we were before,
27:04
you know,
27:05
massive wildfires were a thing.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: And now we just expect them every every two years or every year.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: And it didn't used to be that way.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: And we can get back there.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: There's a path there.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: but it's a challenging path.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: And there is some expense to it, but there's also payoff.
27:20
And I think that's true in a lot of these areas,
27:22
but it does take leadership.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: It takes courage.
27:24
So I appreciate you kind of being willing to show that
27:26
leadership to chart a path
27:28
that isn't the same as every single Democrat to kind of chart
27:30
your own path,
27:31
SPEAKER_02: just as some of us Republicans try to chart our own path.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: So I look forward to continuing to do that with you.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: This was so fun.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: Anything else you want to share or keep people aware of?
27:41
SPEAKER_01: No, I just want to echo what you said.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I think all of us charting our own path is the way back.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Appreciate your time.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And there we go.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: 27, almost 28 minutes.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: Perfect little episode for people on Fridays.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Or you can pick it up on Monday on any podcast platform.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: Load up crosstabs and on your commute in on Monday for another long,
28:03
SPEAKER_02: long week of session of the five weeks that we have.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: You can listen and hear about what we're working on here in the Capitol.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much.