Latest / Parenting Through The Hard / When Love Grows Up: Staying Connected While Letting Go

Transcript

When Love Grows Up: Staying Connected While Letting Go · Parenting Through The Hard

0:05
Welcome to Parenting through the Hard, a podcast for parents navigating
0:09
the messy, unpredictable seasons of raising teens and supporting
0:13
adult children. I'm Angie, your host and friend who knows
0:17
exactly how heavy and lonely this road can be.
0:21
My goal is to create a space where we can talk about what's real,
0:26
honest conversations about the challenges of parenting that are rooted in
0:30
hope and anchored in love. Whether you're in crisis, unsure about
0:34
the future, or just trying to make it through the day, there's space for you
0:38
here. Together, we'll explore what it means to keep showing up,
0:41
finding strength, staying grounded, and holding
0:45
on to hope one step at a time.
0:50
Hello friends. Welcome back to the show, and welcome back
0:54
to Season four of Parenting through the Hard. Before we
0:58
begin, I want to take a moment to thank Haley for the donation she made
1:02
that helped sponsor today's episode. Haley, thank you for
1:06
supporting this work and for helping create a steady, healing space for
1:10
parents of teens and adult children. A place where we can find language
1:13
for what we're living, stay grounded in our own lane, and walk through hard
1:17
and unresolved seasons together. If you've ever thought about sponsoring an episode
1:22
yourself, you can find a link to donate in the show notes or by visiting
1:25
the Donations tab on our website@parentingthroughthehard.com
1:30
with that said, I'm your host Angie, and it is so good
1:34
to be back here with you today because I have a guest
1:38
on the show. It has been a long time since I've
1:42
had someone on the mic with me, and it honestly feels a little like having
1:46
a girlfriend over for coffee to sit and talk about
1:49
life. So I've been looking forward to this conversation all
1:53
week. My guest today is Esther Goetz.
1:57
Esther is an author, motherhood coach, spiritual director,
2:01
and mom to four grown kids. Her work grew
2:05
out of the beautiful ache of raising humans who no longer needed her
2:10
the way they once did. She offers help, hope and humor
2:14
to moms learning how to love without clinging, show up without controlling,
2:18
and give their kids the roots of unconditional love and the
2:23
wings of freedom to be completely themselves.
2:25
I first started following Esther on social media several years
2:29
ago because she writes so beautifully about what it's
2:33
like to parent big kids. I actually met her for the first time in 2024,
2:37
around the time my mom passed away and life was changing for
2:41
me in a really big way. At that time, I was in the middle of
2:45
navigating a very hard season of loss, and I remember feeling like if I
2:50
didn't find something to anchor me, I might Just float away.
2:53
Esther was someone who helped me during that transition, and I've continued
2:57
to work with her on and off since then. A few months back, I had
3:01
a session with Esther where I was working through some struggles I was having around
3:05
healthy boundaries with my big kids. Like a lot of parents, I was
3:09
feeling that tension between wanting to be supportive and realizing that
3:13
so many times I was carrying more than what was actually mine to carry.
3:17
During that conversation, Esther brought up a concept that has really
3:21
stayed with me. She talked about the difference between being responsible
3:25
to our children and being responsible for our children.
3:28
At first glance, those two things can sound almost identical,
3:32
right? But emotionally and relationally, they lead to
3:36
two very different ways of loving. And once I started thinking
3:40
about that distinction, it opened up a whole new way of looking at some patterns
3:44
that I had been stepping into as a parent. So I'm grateful to have Esther
3:48
here with us today and to help unpack this idea a little bit more.
3:52
Esther, welcome. I'm so happy that you're here with me today,
3:56
friend. Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful to be here and happy.
4:00
Okay, so we're going to jump right in here. When you first said
4:05
that to me in our session, it really made me pause because
4:09
I realized how easily those two ideas get tangled
4:14
together for us as moms. So maybe we could start there.
4:17
When did this distinction first click for you in your
4:21
own life? When did you start realizing the difference between being responsible
4:25
to your kids and being responsible for them?
4:29
I would say mostly when my kids started to push back
4:33
on me, which is the normal time during the teen years where I was maybe
4:37
so used to taking responsibility for their lives.
4:41
And they were like, nope, I've got
4:46
this. I particularly think of my youngest daughter, who is the
4:50
most independent, she's the most like me. And she
4:54
wanted to do everything herself from when she was little all
4:59
the way up. And so when she hit the teen years, it got a little
5:02
louder for her. And she'd be like, no, mom, do not
5:06
do that. I'm doing this. I'm taking care of this. And I was a little
5:09
taken aback at first, but then I did slowly
5:14
realize that she was actually right. That was my long, slow unraveling
5:18
to how I was taking responsibility for even
5:22
her older siblings lives because they
5:26
didn't push back quite as much. They liked that, or they
5:30
probably probably didn't like it, but they were used to
5:34
it, I would say, and they weren't quite so quick to
5:38
push back on me. Yeah, I think a lot
5:41
of people who are listening probably feel that same
5:46
tension in their relationships with kids. It's different with each one.
5:49
And so what you might not experience with the older kids,
5:53
it might be something that just kind of comes on later on,
5:57
but it's something. It's this tension that we never really had language
6:01
for before. It's not something that I've heard discussed.
6:05
I hadn't really heard about it either until I read a book by
6:08
Henry Cloud called Boundaries. And it
6:13
was more or less about being responsible to
6:18
other people versus for other people. And then
6:22
I brought that into my parenting, and it
6:26
blew my mind at the time. And that was probably. I was reading that book
6:30
around when my kids were teenagers. Yeah. And especially when that
6:34
youngest one was starting to push back, and I was like, oh,
6:37
my gosh, that is so true. And it comes from
6:41
a boundaries, like a healthy boundaries. My own
6:45
healthy boundaries. What am I responsible for and what am I not responsible
6:50
for? He said that phrasing, and it hit me like a ton of bricks.
6:53
And then I've slowly unpacked that. Especially when I'm talking with
6:57
parents of big kids. Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed in myself
7:01
and in my friends, especially if they have teen and adult children, somewhere along the
7:06
way, we kind of begin believing that our children's
7:10
outcomes are a direct reflection of our success or failure as
7:15
parents. So if they struggle, we feel like we must have done something wrong.
7:20
If they make choices we wouldn't choose, we naturally kind of feel
7:24
a pull to try and fix them. And so this,
7:28
the idea of boundaries. It's funny that you brought up that book, because I was
7:31
thinking to myself, I read that book, like, years ago.
7:35
I think I was like, gosh, in my early 20s or something. And so I
7:39
was. I was thinking about in today's episode that I wanted to kind
7:43
of touch on boundaries. And so it's really interesting that you actually brought that book
7:47
up. Boundaries. I'm gonna have to go back and. And check it out again.
7:51
Yeah. I think that you ask a really wise question or you're
7:55
bringing up something really powerful about us carrying responsibility for our kids outcomes.
8:00
And I think that's just how parenting begins.
8:03
Right. It does. When our kids are little,
8:06
their survival actually depends on us. Yeah. We regulate
8:11
their environment, we solve problems, we keep them safe.
8:14
And for years, we're constantly stepping in to make things
8:18
better. And when you do that for a decade,
8:22
a decade and a half, your nervous system learns something really
8:26
powerful, which is, if something goes wrong in my child's life, I need to
8:30
step In. Yeah. And the nervous system doesn't automatically
8:34
update when your child hits the teen years or the adult years.
8:37
Right. Like, our nervous system's like, oh, look at that. Let's switch
8:41
everything. Right. Yeah. There's. There's a software update
8:45
ready for you to download while you're sleeping tonight. Like your phone. As soon as
8:48
your kid hits 14 or 15 or 20, here's the
8:52
download. We wait. Yeah.
8:56
I. I have had that experience where I poured an enormous
8:59
amount of myself into raising my kids. You know,
9:03
time, attention, emotional energy. So when
9:07
something goes wrong later in a child's life,
9:10
it doesn't just feel like a concern that we have. It can feel like
9:14
a reflection on us. Did I miss something?
9:19
Did I do something wrong? Is this why it's happening?
9:22
And culture reinforces it. I mean, let's face it.
9:26
We tend to believe that if a parent. If we parent well enough,
9:31
our kids will turn out a certain way. That's that formulaic A plus
9:35
B equals C. And I think we hear
9:39
that in insidious ways.
9:42
Parenting podcasts, like, here's the formula
9:47
for how to do it with your children. Right. And I'm not saying that
9:51
there isn't. That's why you have a podcast. There isn't general ways
9:55
to conduct yourself while raising your kids.
9:58
But human beings are not projects that we manage
10:02
into successful outcomes. So. Good.
10:05
Yes. They're just not. Yes. And our kids are
10:09
people who are unfolding in their own time, with their own
10:13
temperament, their own experiences, their own choices.
10:18
Yeah. And I think that's a lot of times where we get tangled up.
10:22
Yeah. And here is the We. We start believing
10:26
we are responsible for how our kids turn. Lives, turn out.
10:30
We are re in reality responsible to
10:34
them, to love them well, to guide them when they're young, and to respect their
10:38
agency as they grow. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's just
10:42
like. It's such. Just an abrupt shift. It feels
10:46
like, you know, speaking of the download, which we wish we had.
10:50
Yeah. It's like a. It's almost. It almost feels like a U
10:54
turn that you have to do. You know, like, you're just going along in
10:58
one direction for so long, and then you. You just really have to shift gears.
11:01
One of the telltale signs that I notice in myself when I'm shifting
11:06
into this responsible for mode is that my mind
11:10
immediately kind of starts problem solving their life. So instead of just listening
11:14
to what they're sharing, my brain starts jumping ahead to, like, how do
11:18
we fix this? What. What should they do next? Who should they Call what's
11:22
the plan from here? And before I even realize it, I've moved from
11:26
what I tell myself every single time. Esther, when I get on the phone is
11:30
like, your job is to be present.
11:33
You know, I just, like. I ground myself. I'm like, your job
11:38
is to just be pre. You're not going to fix. You're not going to
11:41
give advice unless you're asked. Like, you're just going to be present. And I'm like,
11:46
I shift from that to, like, trying to manage the outcome,
11:49
like, at a drop of the hat. So can you think of any signs that
11:53
pop up for you when you might be carrying responsibility that actually
11:57
belongs to your child? Is there something that you feel in your body or something
12:01
you feel responsible for? How's that show up for you? I feel
12:05
like there is this noticing within me where I
12:09
am shifting into a space that
12:13
isn't mine. And I will say this. If I were to
12:17
ask them if it's theirs or
12:21
mine, they would probably say theirs.
12:24
Right. Or if I were really to step back and
12:29
ask that same question of myself, is this theirs or mine?
12:32
That does not mean I don't do it right to it. And I
12:36
can sense that shift. Like, I can actually sense the.
12:40
Oh, like. But then I barrel ahead anyway.
12:44
Much of the time, I'm like, well, And I do think this
12:48
is what it is. And this is what gets really hard.
12:52
One of the harder realizations I've had in parenting my big
12:56
kids, in my instinct to step in and fix
13:00
something, is actually about relieving my own discomfort
13:05
a hundred percent. When there is an anxiety that rises
13:09
up within me and I'm reacting, maybe that's the shift where
13:14
I'm reacting to the anxiety that's welling up within me, not necessarily
13:18
helping my child. Oh, my gosh, that's so good.
13:23
That's so good. Yes, that is exactly
13:26
what it is. Yeah. Sometimes my kids aren't even as anxious as I
13:31
am. Yeah, most times.
13:35
And that is a normal thing because we've lived longer than them,
13:39
so we can sort of see how these things might play out,
13:42
but we don't know how they might play out. And sometimes
13:46
they play out better than we hope they do. But I also
13:51
think that when you love somebody and we all love our kids so much,
13:54
that is struggling. Your body does feel it.
13:58
And so I'm not beating myself up that I feel anxious.
14:01
My chest is tightening. My mind is already starting. As soon
14:05
as I feel anxious, my mind starts racing to solve the problem.
14:09
Yeah, like. And to get rid of that discomfort. Right. To get
14:14
rid of that discomfort. And, and. And you have spent
14:18
a long time being the one who can make everything better.
14:21
Right. So that instinct to jump in is incredibly
14:26
strong. But it is often about calming myself, even if I
14:30
don't know it. And I do have one kid who's so great.
14:34
He's my third, and he happens to be working here today. His car is in
14:38
the shop. He lives about 15 minutes away. So he's downstairs.
14:41
And I can even sense he was talking to me as we were in the
14:45
car about something. And I was, like, getting nervous inside this morning,
14:49
as. And I thought, oh, there it is again. Yeah,
14:52
there it is. And so I have to sort of like you do on the.
14:57
Like, I'm just here to be present. Right. I'm just going
15:01
to take a deep breath. And a lot
15:05
of times, most of the times, instead of me solving the
15:09
problem, it gives them the space to figure it out,
15:12
a way through themselves. And I think that's
15:16
really important for their own agency. I mean, agency is a big buzzword out there
15:19
right now. But I know for me and growing up, I didn't have a ton
15:23
of agency. Nobody talked about that. And so I
15:26
didn't even really know what to do with that. I couldn't really trust myself.
15:30
I mean, this is all the Gen X problem.
15:33
Right. Right. We're just like. I don't know if that's a good instinct
15:37
or I'm just in the right or the wrong. This is probably why we're,
15:40
like, even parenting our kids. So.
15:44
Yeah. And I know for me, the more I've taken agency over my
15:47
own life, I can believe in myself as someone who's capable of navigating
15:51
navigating difficulty, and that's what I want for my kids. Yeah.
15:56
I don't know if that answers your question, but, yes, I feel that as
15:59
soon as I get really anxious, it's a big sign. Yeah. For me to go,
16:03
all right, a hundred percent.
16:07
That's a good one. Like, as soon as you start to feel your heart,
16:10
like, it starts to beat a little bit faster or there's like an uneasiness
16:14
inside you that is a good indication. And like you said,
16:18
it's like, it's not that, you know, sometimes, like, I'll feel that line
16:22
and just barrel through it anyway. You know, I thought that was, like, such a
16:26
good description because that's what it's like. Well, I'm going in. Maybe I'm not supposed
16:29
to be, but we're doing this, you know, and then you have to reveal it
16:33
back in later. Yeah. And because of our experience, we can get that box checked
16:37
very quickly. Yeah. You know, like you say you have a kid who.
16:40
And I've had this happen to me, calls you in the middle of the night
16:44
because somebody hit their car when they were out
16:47
parked in a not safe area. And so somebody hit their car. I'm just saying
16:52
this little story. And I got the phone call at like 1am
16:56
what should I do? My car doesn't seem drivable. And I'm like,
16:59
hey, okay, I have the AAA card. I have this.
17:02
I've done this when I was. Here it is. I'm calling aaa. Here we go.
17:06
Literally, I did barrel through. I did. And I
17:10
called aaa, found their address, made sure,
17:14
stayed up all night, did the thing and got
17:19
them to where they needed to be. I'm just saying I
17:24
remember having to call AAA myself. Right. Vetting aaa,
17:28
actually signing up for aaa. Right, right, right.
17:32
So, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I don't. You don't,
17:36
you don't want to beat yourself up at all, but because you do have experience
17:40
and you have anxiety. Yeah. It's like that's when the pause
17:44
is really important. And I have noticed this just recently.
17:48
So our granddaughter, we moved
17:51
here in South Carolina a couple years ago. And so now I get to have
17:55
like more of a relationship with her. She's eight years old.
17:58
She loves me, Esther. Like she
18:02
is. She just, she crawls up on my lap and gigi,
18:06
I love you. And she's. When I walk in the door, Gigi,
18:10
she's so happy to see me. And I'm like,
18:13
oh, yeah, this is what it felt like
18:17
when our kids were younger. And so I think when they call
18:21
us in the middle of the night and we get to jump up and find
18:24
that number for aaa. And it's like, it ignites
18:28
that part in us that, that like where we're needed and like we're
18:33
appreciate. Because, you know, they're going to appreciate it at the end of all of
18:36
it. You know, I think it just kind of touches a little bit of that
18:40
part of us that we don't feel as much anymore once our kids get older,
18:44
you know. Yeah, that dopamine hit and then it solidifies
18:48
that place in our nervous system. Because my son was very appreciative
18:52
that I took care of him at 1am and solved it all. And in fact,
18:57
sometimes he says to me, this is one who likes being helped.
19:01
Oh, mom, I'm the fire and you're the fireman.
19:06
And I'm like, oh, great. Oh,
19:09
honey, that is not a. That you need to be the fireman
19:13
of your own fires.
19:16
Okay. You know, and then you kind of know, like, this kid does not
19:20
have the agency he should have. Right. Right. And so even. And I'm responsible
19:25
for part of that. Right. And I am responsible. And also, it's not too late.
19:29
Yeah. Like, that's what's so great about being a
19:33
human being. Yeah. Is there's Grace there to say
19:37
I can start over today and I can help him to get the agency that
19:41
he needs over time. And, yeah,
19:45
I just had a big birthday and my. My one daughter made a book
19:48
for me, and he did write something like, whether it's 2 1pm
19:53
or 1am you are there for us. And I'm
19:57
like, okay, but. And. And I.
20:01
I'm. I. That responsibility two and four can be very
20:05
nuanced. So. And it can be very different for every kid
20:09
depending on which one you're dealing with at the time. Yeah.
20:13
So let's talk about that for a minute. After you and I had our session
20:18
where you kind of explained to me the difference between responsibility two
20:22
and responsibility for. I did a whole, like, page and
20:26
a half of processing in my journal around what responsibility to
20:30
my child looks like. It's funny how 2 and
20:34
4 are so muddled together for us
20:38
sometimes. When I started to think about my responsibility to my child,
20:42
I thought about things like, I'm responsible to love
20:46
them, I'm responsible to teach them, I'm responsible to
20:50
guide them. I'm responsible to model healthy behavior,
20:54
but I'm not responsible for the choices that they make with
20:58
what I gave them. And that can be a difficult shift.
21:02
Like, we talked about, a pretty sharp kind of, oh, it's not quite a U
21:05
turn, but left turn. Let's just say, especially if you're a parent who
21:09
has always been the steady one, the fixer, or the one who kind
21:13
of helps hold everything together. So how would
21:17
you describe the difference between supporting a child so
21:22
responsible to versus responsible for?
21:27
Yeah, I think that what you journaled is fairly
21:31
accurate. I love what you said there.
21:34
And I even probably am thinking about how whoever's
21:39
listening out there is even noticing their own shift with just those words.
21:43
For me, I am actually never
21:47
responsible for another person's life,
21:51
even if that person is my child. Right.
21:54
I am not responsible for,
21:59
like you said, the ways they respond to
22:03
what I am actually responsible to them for. Right.
22:07
Again, they have their own agency. They have their own inner world.
22:11
And they have their own path, which.
22:14
We talk about this all the time in this space, that their path is not
22:18
the same as our path. Their personality is not the same as our
22:22
personality. Their inner world is not the same as our inner world.
22:26
Their outer world is not the same as
22:30
our outer world. Definitely. Yeah. And so what I'm responsible
22:35
for is myself. Right. We are responsible
22:39
for ourselves and then two
22:43
others. So I'm responsible, like you were saying, for my words, my actions,
22:47
my reactions. Mm. My willingness to listen,
22:51
my humility when I get things wrong. And my commitment to
22:55
loving them without controlling them. That's another word
22:59
with the responsibility for. Tends to move into the space
23:03
of control. Right. Yeah. So I'm responsible.
23:08
What I'm responsible to is how I show up in
23:12
relationship with them. Right. That makes sense. Yeah.
23:15
Their decisions, their emotions, and ultimately the direction of their life, their life
23:19
takes belong to them. And so I'm
23:24
responsible to be kind, to listen, to be gentle,
23:28
to be patient, to have self control, all of those things.
23:33
Responsible for myself and to them.
23:37
If that. Does that. Does that make sense? Okay.
23:40
But they are responsible for their
23:44
lives, right? Yeah. So it's interesting. I'm responsible for
23:48
myself and to them. They are responsible
23:52
for themselves and to me.
23:55
Right. Like, I need two human
23:59
beings. I think what happens is when it become. When it's our kid,
24:02
like you said, that shift. We are responsible for their
24:07
safety when they're little. Their. Generally, their.
24:10
Their food, their, you know, money, all of those things.
24:14
We. But again, that probably fits under the
24:18
responsibility to them more than it fits under the responsibility
24:23
for them. I have asked myself the question,
24:27
am I ever responsible for them? Have I ever
24:31
been? And I think I've come up with the answer no.
24:36
Interesting. Okay. Never have been responsibility for
24:40
them. Because everything. All of those things,
24:44
I'm responsible to take care of them. I'm responsible
24:49
to be the best mom, you know,
24:52
whatever. The best. I don't. I say that, like, to be, you know,
24:56
I'm responsible to them. And so all of those things can fall under that.
25:00
But am I responsible for the fact that they just
25:05
threw a temper tantrum in the supermarket when they're Right.
25:08
Right. You know, no,
25:11
that's, you know, that long, slow getting them to take
25:15
responsibility and agency over their life.
25:18
Yeah. You know, that's where it's like, I.
25:21
I'm responsible to my infant to feed them to,
25:25
you know, make sure they have. But they're. All of their
25:29
cry. I don't know. You know, like. Yeah.
25:32
So maybe there. Maybe we've been told, sold a bill
25:36
of goods, that we're responsible for everything. Right. All the time.
25:40
Yeah. And it helps me. Then that would help
25:44
me, no matter how old my kid is. 0 to 50.
25:47
Yeah. To take responsibility for myself.
25:52
Right. Caring for myself,
25:54
regulating my own emotions, no matter how old they are.
25:58
Yeah. So it is. It's strange. I.
26:01
That's. That's a question. I'm beginning to unpack. I'm leaning towards.
26:04
No. Yeah, yeah. You know,
26:08
it's. I didn't. I actually wasn't thinking about it that way, so it's interesting
26:12
that you brought that up. I can see the argument that you're making for
26:16
that. I was originally, in my mind, like, I was thinking,
26:20
well, I have. I, you know, you start out responsible
26:23
for them, and then you, you know, at some point in time that shifts,
26:27
and then you switch away from being responsible for them to
26:32
being responsible to them. Like, I just kind of imagined this being like
26:36
a transition, the kind of that you go through, like, maybe when they hit the
26:39
teen years, like we talked about before. But I can kind of
26:43
see what you're talking about, about this idea that,
26:47
like, from the very beginning, from day one,
26:50
maybe even from the time that they're conceived,
26:54
you know, and we're carrying them, that we're responsible to eat healthy, we're responsible
26:58
to, you know, but we're. We're not. We're not actually responsible
27:02
for forming them. Like that is. That is happening all on its own, you know,
27:06
and so. So I can kind of. I can kind of see where you're
27:10
going with this idea that maybe that it's always been this
27:14
way, that we have always been responsible to them and
27:18
not for them, and that maybe that's part of what you talked about.
27:22
Like, we've been sold this bill of goods. Like, that's part of maybe the
27:25
conversation that would be helpful to change moving
27:30
forward, you know, like, especially in this space where we
27:35
have for so long felt responsible for. Yeah.
27:39
That is what we have believed. And especially in that in
27:43
the teen years when they begin to push, push, push, push back.
27:47
Rightly so that's
27:50
probably a good sign that we have to take stock of
27:56
what we have believed probably all. All their lives.
28:00
And you and I are both wordsmiths. Right. We're both authors.
28:04
So that. That two and four. And I think,
28:08
like, right now, if you're parenting a teen or a young adult, you definitely
28:13
are not responsible for their life. Right, Right. And so I'm
28:17
like, oh, let's start where we are. Let's Start right now where we
28:21
are. You know, all the good healthy parenting right now is regulate
28:25
yourself. Yeah. Regulate yourself constantly.
28:29
Regulate yourself. Which goes to what we talked about with that shift into anxiety.
28:33
The reason that you're taking a breath right before you get on the phone call
28:37
with your. Any of your kids. Child is that you're like,
28:41
okay, I feel the anxiety coming on me and I need to
28:45
regulate myself. Yeah. And I love that
28:49
idea. I love that. And that is that responsibility for self and to
28:53
others. We are responsibility to the world to be regulated.
28:58
Yeah. Yeah. I think the thing that I'm realizing is that when you
29:02
say that you're responsible for someone, it implies ownership
29:06
of outcomes. So it means that you carry the weight of their choices.
29:11
You carry the weight of their behavior, their success, their failure. You carry
29:15
the weight of fixing problems for them. And it places you
29:18
in like a savior or fixer role.
29:23
Being responsible to someone means that you
29:27
are accountable for how you show up, not for the outcome
29:30
of their life. Yeah. Right. So it focuses on your
29:34
integrity, your values, your care and presence, your boundaries.
29:39
And that distinction has been kind of huge.
29:41
Yeah. And that. That is so powerful. I know.
29:45
For me, because then it takes away the
29:51
wrongly placed responsibility for me. And I always say there's.
29:55
This is another wordsmith thing. There's a big difference between caring for
29:59
someone and carrying what's theirs to carry.
30:03
Right. We can come alongside and be a compassionate
30:07
presence. We can come alongside and bear
30:11
witness to their struggle and be
30:15
that sort of safe place.
30:19
But ultimately their decision doesn't
30:23
rest on us doing something correctly and perfectly.
30:28
And that's what moms do all the time, all we do. I know
30:32
that I spent years, especially when my one son was a teenager,
30:36
trying every which way to solve
30:40
this kid's life. I tried being really like tough
30:45
love. Then I tried, you know, gentleness. I tried come
30:50
getting him to therapy. I mean, all of these. I tried every possible
30:53
outcome. Hey, maybe I should do it like this. Maybe I should do it like.
30:56
Like I said, I looped and looped and looped around all day,
31:00
and I spent so much energy on that.
31:04
And in the end of the day, I remember him saying, I'm one of those
31:07
people that just has to really learn it the hard way. And I was like,
31:10
okay, and he's
31:14
doing great now. But I just
31:18
remember spending so much of my own energy and having so much guilt
31:22
over stuff and caring so much that wasn't mine. Yeah.
31:26
Not mine to carry. Oh, yeah, I know. I talking
31:31
about, like, taking responsibility for, like, I caught myself
31:35
yesterday. I don't care. I saw the line. I. I dared to cross
31:39
it. I just. I. I barreled through it. My son is 20. One of
31:43
my boys is 20. And he was at home, and it was a rare occasion
31:47
where he was actually home for dinner. And I had bought these cookies,
31:51
and I had them sitting on the counter for afterwards. And the little kids
31:55
I had, you know, after they got done eating, which, of course, I make their
31:59
plates for them. So they got done eating, and then they could have a cookie.
32:03
And he got done eating, and he said, mom, can I have a cookie?
32:06
He asked, like, if you could have one. And I was like, well, did you
32:10
eat any salad?
32:15
He's 20. And he's like, no. And I was like,
32:19
well, I guess if you're not gonna eat your vegetables, then you don't get a
32:22
cookie. And he was like, are you kidding me right now?
32:26
And I'm like, yep. You know, and it was just, like, one of those things.
32:29
I was like, oh, my gosh, Angie, get. Like, you are such a control freak.
32:34
Like, you just can't handle the fact that this kid's, like, not getting as much
32:37
vegetables. You know, like, we just naturally, like, those step
32:41
into those roles. Well, and how great is that? I just think that's hilarious.
32:44
And then I go right to. If he's not with you and he's at college,
32:48
he's eating every cookie, can do whatever he wants, right?
32:51
Do whatever the heck he wants. My kids are like,
32:55
mom, when you're. When you're not here, like, I know. I do whatever I want.
32:59
I know. He said, I will
33:03
drive to the store and buy my own cookies. And I was like, okay,
33:06
well, you could do that, or you could just have a bowl of salad,
33:09
and you could have one here, you know? He did. I will say he ate
33:12
the salad. He's like, I'm eating that whole bowl just to prove a point.
33:15
So he ate, like, this giant bowl of romaine lettuce. But hilarious.
33:20
Yeah. Even my son came to get his car, and he was here, and we
33:24
walked in the door, and I was like, hey, have you eaten breakfast yet?
33:26
He's like, no, not yet. And I was like, I don't really want to make
33:30
this kid breakfast, so. And now that also happens
33:35
where I'm like, no, I don't want to. But then I found this poll,
33:38
like, oh, well, what if I didn't make him protein and eggs and
33:42
this and that? And I'm like. And then I was like, well, you know,
33:44
you've Lived here for. You. Lived here for a long time, you know, where everything
33:48
is. I've had it. That's what I said to get myself. I was, like,
33:51
immediately trying to jump in. And I'm thinking, he does this every day,
33:55
and I probably have more food in this house than he does in his apartment.
33:57
Right, right, right. Yes. Solidarity.
34:01
Yeah. All right. So one
34:05
thing that we don't talk enough, I think about is kind
34:09
of this. Well, I guess. Let me start that again. I. How do I want
34:13
to say this? Let's see. I want to kind of touch on the struggling thing.
34:17
The emotional grief. Yeah. That we kind of go through. Yeah. So let's see.
34:21
So there are some uncomfortable emotions that we experience
34:25
that can come with letting go of responsibility for our children.
34:28
Because for many parents, especially parents who have been through hard
34:32
seasons, are identity gets wrapped up in being the
34:36
one who helps and kind of holds everything together.
34:39
So stepping back can feel almost like
34:43
we're abandoning them, even when we know that's not true.
34:47
What emotions would you say came
34:51
up for you when you began shifting from this idea of
34:55
responsibility for. To responsibility to. Well,
34:59
we talked about this a little bit earlier, and I would say the biggest
35:03
one most of the time is fear and anxiety.
35:07
Because we know that when we were
35:12
responsible for all of it, we could quell
35:15
that in many ways. We could probably jump
35:20
in and fix something. The example I gave about my son's tire. Right. Yeah.
35:24
I could go to bed knowing he was safe and not just lay
35:28
there and wonder how he's getting from point A to point
35:32
B. So that one would be huge. And that is really
35:36
highly expected. Yeah. I would say that's probably what
35:40
gets us going back to the place where we do
35:44
cross the barrier, jump through it, because we feel
35:48
that, and we're like, immediately gotta shut that down. Yeah. I'm afraid I
35:52
gotta shut that down. And I think we know that the world is a scary
35:56
place at times, and these things don't go well. And they're very bumpy roads,
36:00
maybe, that we've experienced to get from A to B. And we did not like
36:04
that. How that felt for us when we were in
36:08
the. In those formative years or in those launching years, I would say the
36:13
movement from being a kid to an adult. Other uncomfortable
36:17
emotions I know that came up for me in that time were as soon as
36:21
I realized how much responsibility I was taking and I was shifting it to them,
36:25
I did get a little resentful because I was like, oh, my gosh,
36:29
look at everything. I'm doing for them and they should be themselves.
36:32
And that resentment is more of a cue
36:36
to me. It's not anything bad. It's just like, oh, when we feel resentful,
36:41
usually it means we are probably over responsible. Yep.
36:45
You're actually doing too much. And so that a
36:50
little bit of grief, what you said earlier about that feeling
36:55
of being needed. I love when my kids
36:58
are like, hey mom, can you help me with this? I'm like, yes. Hey mom,
37:02
can you meet me at the car place and then drive me
37:06
home and can I work there for the day? That's what my son said.
37:08
And I'm like, absolutely. Yeah. But I was like, okay,
37:12
that's still being him, being responsible for his life and asking for help.
37:15
Which is very different than me being like, hey, so I'm going to call the
37:18
auto place, then I'm going to do this. You come over, let's do this,
37:21
this, you know. Yeah. All he had to say was I need my, I need
37:25
to take my car in. And then I'm calling, you know, there's very different.
37:28
And I was like, so when you call them, let me know and let me
37:32
see, you know, let me know and what date? So I put it back on
37:36
him. Yeah. But I still help him.
37:39
What would you say has helped you personally sit with
37:43
those feelings when they come up? Like in the moments where you see
37:47
the line and you don't barrel through it? What is it that kind
37:51
of, I guess like allows you to,
37:55
to, to kind of be able to just sit with those emotions that are coming
37:59
up for you instead of rushing back into the pattern of fixing things. So it's
38:03
going to feel weird to say this, but I have two words. One's called microwave
38:07
and one's called crock pot. Interesting. Okay. And I say
38:11
a microwave gets something done immediately in
38:14
the short term and a crock pot is something in the long term.
38:19
So I can say the word microwave to myself, which is like,
38:22
okay, I want to get this done for a short term fix versus a crock
38:27
pot. I view this with relationship with my kids. My relationship with my kids
38:31
is a crock pot over the long haul. And what
38:34
I want our relationship to actually be in a
38:38
healthy two adult functioning being together as
38:44
two lovely adults who want to be together and don't have to
38:48
be together. That that word crock pot comes into my mind. What do
38:52
I want in the long term? Not that quick, short term, it's the response
38:55
versus the reaction. Right? Yeah. So the reaction
38:59
is microwave. Fix this, solve it right away.
39:03
My anxiety is big. And then I think like, okay,
39:06
crock pot. Yeah, crock pot.
39:09
What do you want in the long term with this kid?
39:12
You know, I want to have my kid be
39:16
a healthy, functioning adult. Yeah. That I can have a
39:20
really good relationship with. Long term. Yeah, long term.
39:25
Long term instead of short term. Fix. So those are the weird words I
39:28
use with myself. Is this a microwave or this is my. And there's nothing.
39:32
There are situations that are emergencies that need microwave. Right.
39:36
Yeah. Let's say that caveat. Right. Your kid is in a major emergency,
39:40
that microwave. Right. They're incapable of take,
39:44
you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah. We're talking about a
39:49
little bit different here. We're talking about, you know, when we, when we
39:53
are automatically stepping in, when it's their responsibility. Yeah.
39:57
So I want to say that caveat too. There's a little bit of a caveat
40:00
when there's a true, true emergency, but our bodies are telling us
40:05
everything's an emergency. Right. Right.
40:07
Yeah. I love, I love that idea. I am
40:11
totally gonna store that nugget away for myself.
40:15
I love the idea of like having that as a
40:19
check and balance for myself. So anytime I'm getting ready
40:23
to step into fixing or, you know,
40:26
problem solving or researching or whatever it might be of
40:31
kind of asking myself like, or when I make the decision on how I'm
40:35
going to handle something, like saying to myself, like, okay, this is a
40:39
microwave moment. I'm going for the short fix
40:43
right now, the short term fix right now. Because it's,
40:46
it, it makes me be intentional about what I'm
40:51
choosing. So if I say that to myself, then like I'm confessing
40:56
basically to myself that like, I am going for the short fix right now
41:00
and that that will make sense or won't make sense in the moment. And you
41:03
know, I, I'll. I can choose what I want to choose, but I like that,
41:07
I like that kind of just having that as a check and balance. And then
41:10
in the times when I'm having to choose to,
41:13
to self regulate, you know, to, to not step
41:17
into that role, it also reminds me that like, hey, this is,
41:21
this is good. This is a crock pot moment. And we're working towards,
41:25
you know, something that's going to be really good here. And so like,
41:29
just, just kind of stay with it. Yeah. And just one
41:33
other thing I did want to say too is there's always room for
41:36
repair and making mistakes, even if you do barrel over the line.
41:40
Yeah. Yep. Like, I can catch myself in the middle of
41:45
a sentence. And be like, well, trying to fix this. And even I
41:49
have said to my kids, like, they know my little,
41:52
like, brain goes a million miles an hour. And I'll be like, hey,
41:56
I'm stepping over some lines here. My own lines of taking
42:00
responsibility for you. And that's your.
42:04
It's your life and you need to do this. And I want to empower you
42:08
instead of have power over you. You know, I want to empower you to get
42:11
your own life on track and not come in and, like, take control and
42:15
take power away from you. Right. That's another word.
42:19
Are we empowering them or taking power away? It's very,
42:22
very interesting. Yeah. Yeah, It's.
42:25
I mean, that's where all of these things kind of can come in, in the
42:28
moment. But even if we screw up in the moment, who cares? Yeah.
42:32
You say, look, I was starting to fix everything for you, and I'm
42:36
backing off now. I'm backing off. What do you want to do? What are you
42:40
thinking? Yeah, yeah, it's okay to be honest about that
42:44
process. I think it's like, it's good for them to know and to see,
42:48
like, what you're working on and how you're trying to, you know, step back
42:52
and, and, and they, they are kind of getting a front
42:55
row, you know, seat to what that looks like in the life of a mom.
42:59
You know, I, I will usually say, like, I'll stop myself when
43:04
I catch myself doing it, and I'll be like, hang on, I'm doing too much.
43:07
Like, just let me. Let's start this over again,
43:12
you know, and then just kind of. Okay, what are you thinking? You know?
43:15
Well, don't you think, Angie, too, that there is so
43:19
much in our bigger kids lives that we can't fix?
43:23
That what's actually true at this point,
43:26
it doesn't really matter. We could be doing more harm than good. And,
43:29
you know, I had a son who was in a relationship with a girl for
43:33
six years, loved her, would thought he was going to marry her. Both sons actually
43:37
broke up. Yeah. Heart's broken. Absolutely heartbroken.
43:41
Can't. Can't fix it. I haven't no son
43:45
that lost a job or whatever it is. You're not going in and being
43:49
like, hey, to the people that fire them.
43:53
Hey, what are you doing? Right. Fire my son.
43:57
So I think that responsibility to them doesn't ever change, which is
44:01
so lovely, no matter what they're going through. Yeah. Never changes, which is so
44:05
great. Yeah. Yeah, it is. But it does take.
44:09
It does take some transitioning As a parent.
44:13
Oh my God. Get used to that a hundred
44:17
percent. Okay, so we really can't finish today's conversation
44:22
without talking about boundaries. It's funny because when
44:26
my kids were younger, I spent a lot of time working on setting boundaries for
44:31
them. But now I'm realizing that in this stage of parenting,
44:35
I'm having to work on identifying and setting boundaries for myself.
44:38
Because if I'm operating in that responsible for mode
44:42
with my kids, it almost always leads to blurred boundaries.
44:46
I have a natural inclination towards overextending. My default
44:51
is to absorb their stress like a giant heart shaped sponge.
44:55
And I'm constantly losing my emotional footing while
44:58
trying to stabilize theirs. So, Esther, let me ask you this.
45:02
How do you think personal boundaries actually protect both us
45:07
as parents and our children in this process?
45:10
Wow, love that. Thank you. As I've done
45:14
quite a bit of research and even some training in the, in the
45:18
boundary world, I think you're
45:22
hitting on something really important. The most meaningful boundaries
45:26
are the ones we place on ourselves. And in fact, if you do a deep
45:30
dive on boundaries, healthy boundaries are the ones we place
45:34
on ourselves. What are we willing to do, able to
45:38
do, can tolerate and not
45:42
necessarily boundaries to try to get the other person to change.
45:46
Yeah, it's. I think that's the
45:50
default idea when it comes to boundaries is I'm just telling
45:55
them that they have to do this in order to be involved in
45:59
my life and. No, boundaries are something we can
46:03
place on ourselves and also we
46:07
can place for ourselves. And I would
46:12
say the boundaries we place on ourselves are sort of those
46:15
things that we put around, like the impulse to jump in with advice.
46:19
Right. Letting anxiety, our fear,
46:23
drive this relationship. What we talked about before, letting my fear sort of
46:27
dictate how I am in this relationship with my big kid.
46:32
Boundaries around keeping myself regulated to
46:36
allow this space for my kid to wrestle with their decisions and their consequences
46:41
without immediately stepping in. Yeah, right.
46:44
All of those things. When it comes to boundaries
46:49
with myself, then there's boundaries for myself.
46:52
And those are really value valuable when
46:56
it comes to our big kids. Like, hey, and I'm going to be really blunt
47:00
here, right. If you. We are,
47:05
I'm going to say two avenues, which I know a lot of parents. Boundaries around
47:08
finances. Hey, if you mess around in
47:12
college, then guess what? Like, we can, we can help you pay XYZ
47:16
for college. But boy, if you get in trouble with the law
47:20
or the, you know, the campus police or whatever, we're not really willing
47:25
to pay for that. Yeah, right. That's Boundaries for
47:29
our kids. That's, that's. I'm sorry, that's boundaries for ourselves.
47:33
Here's what I'm willing to pay for. Here's what I'm not willing to pay for.
47:37
Yeah. And not to get them to change, but this is what we're willing
47:41
to pay for and not pay for. That's just what's true. I also think it
47:44
comes to the place of boundaries for ourselves around maybe time,
47:49
energy, effort, also boundaries for ourselves around not
47:54
making our kids sad. Like, I had one situation where my
47:58
daughter was wanted me to come somewhere. I think it was for my grandson's
48:02
second birthday. I didn't know when the birthday party was. I had created a writing
48:07
retreat for myself. I was going away and she was
48:11
really sad. But I made a boundary for myself and I had to deal
48:15
with the fact that I was really sad. Cuz she was sad. Yeah. But that
48:19
was a boundary I knew that was best for me and I had to keep.
48:22
So it's like boundaries for ourselves. And I didn't jump in to be like,
48:25
oh, but I'll just drive 1400 miles to come to you
48:29
and change all my flights and yeah. You know, so those are the things
48:33
around boundaries. And it's not, this is so hard. It's not about changing the other
48:37
person. Boundaries are about staying true to who we are.
48:41
Yeah. Oh, it's very hard. That's very hard.
48:46
Yeah, it is really hard. I had to,
48:49
you know, I've talked on the show about how I have a kiddo who
48:54
struggles with substance abuse and that's something that I've been
48:58
working through, like just kind of my boundaries. Because like you said, I was noticing
49:01
a lot of resentment coming up for me, you know, like I was just noticing
49:05
these feelings inside myself and I'm like, what is going on? Like,
49:09
I am not myself. Like I'm not showing up the way that I want to
49:12
show up right now. And I'm. I'm like, I'm exhausted. There has to be a
49:16
different way here. And I knew that the answer was that
49:20
I needed to set some boundaries for myself around what was okay
49:24
with me and what was not okay with me. And just to get some kind
49:28
of clear direction on that. But I had no idea even where to begin
49:32
on it. And So I used ChatGPT and
49:36
was like, hey, help me, help me give, give me some
49:41
ideas of what some healthy boundaries would be for me as a parent with a
49:44
child who, you know, struggles with substance abuse, that tends to, you know,
49:48
jump in and try and fix problems or, you know, I just kind of
49:53
put whatever my issue is in there and then chat spit out, you know,
49:56
a list of 20 different boundaries. I wrote them all down, and I
50:00
was like, wow, these are really good. And I will go back and read
50:05
those boundaries over again just to, like, remind myself,
50:09
yeah, this is a good. These are crock pot things.
50:12
Right. That I set for myself. What would you say to the mama
50:17
listening right now who feels like she doesn't even know where to begin when
50:20
it comes to setting a boundary for herself around stepping back?
50:24
Yeah. I think I mentioned it a little bit earlier. If you're starting
50:28
to notice maybe a little bit of resentment or anger
50:32
building inside of you. A lot of times we shove those down. Cause they're very
50:35
uncomfortable emotions. But letting those emotions
50:39
have their say. I remember standing,
50:42
every mom is going to relate to this. It's after dinner,
50:47
everybody just gets up from the table and they bolt.
50:51
Right, right, Whatever. And there's dishes to
50:55
be loaded in the dishwasher. There's whatever. And you are so angry at the sink.
50:59
You are just like, oh, my gosh, I died.
51:02
And that I used to shove that down and be like, what is wrong with
51:05
you, Esther? Instead of letting it, listen to it and be like,
51:09
something's really wrong here and what needs to change.
51:13
So I would say a lot of times, anger, resentment, are the
51:17
clues that our boundaries are off. And then actually taking inventory.
51:21
You can ask ChatGPT. That's fine. Yeah, you know,
51:25
as well. But it's like, where do we start? Is listening
51:29
to those parts of us that are screaming and saying this.
51:33
Something is not right here. And letting them have a voice instead of shoving them
51:36
down. Also, if your kid is pushing back at you,
51:40
listen and saying, I've got this. Yeah.
51:43
Like, hopefully you will have one of the
51:47
ones like mine who moved to California when she was 19 and I live in
51:50
New Jersey. And it was like, stop.
51:54
That is a beautiful thing of a teenager and a young adult when
51:58
they're like, stop it. Yeah. When they're pushing back, a lot of times they're doing
52:02
something called individuating, where they're actually trying to become their own person.
52:06
And so if you have a kid like that, pay attention. That's actually a beautiful
52:10
gift for you to check in with yourself. So I would say too,
52:14
those. Those are kind of like inflection places where you're like, am I doing too
52:18
much or am I not doing too much? The kid's natural pushback or your own
52:23
pushback. Yeah, the I think the hard part sometimes
52:28
for a lot of, like, our listeners, I think, is like,
52:32
when you have the pushback from your kid who's like, stop.
52:36
You know, let me just do my thing. Like, I'm 19,
52:39
whatever. You don't need to know my location, you know,
52:43
like, whatever it might be. But they're also making unhealthy choice choices,
52:47
and you're worried about them. And so it. It becomes
52:51
a little bit harder in those moments, like, to. To. To shift into
52:55
that. But I think we. A lot of times as moms,
52:59
we think, well, because this is happening, I can't.
53:02
I can't, you know, start thinking about responsibility.
53:06
To responsibility for. Because this is happening. But you
53:10
need to think about that even though that's
53:14
happening or maybe even. Especially that's happening because.
53:18
Yeah. Yeah. Because if Especially. And I
53:22
had. I mean, I had a kid I had to pick up off the
53:26
sidewalk in New York City drunk, throwing up all over himself in
53:30
the free world. I'm not saying this from a place of,
53:34
oh, I did everything. So my kids are so lovely.
53:38
And I just made this little boundary, right.
53:41
I. I had to go get help. I had
53:45
to actually get therapy. I had to get coaching. I had to do all of
53:49
those things to make sure that I stayed in a space where
53:53
I wasn't. Where I wasn't overstepping those boundaries,
53:57
where I was making very healthy boundaries for my own sake and
54:02
for theirs. Yeah. Like, healthy boundaries are
54:06
where I can love me and. And you at the same time.
54:10
Not one on the altar of the other.
54:13
Right. I think that that's. If you look
54:17
up. Look that up on ChatGPT, look that up anywhere. That is the
54:20
best definition I've ever heard of boundaries, where I can love me
54:25
at the same time as I'm loving you. And we're. And we're
54:29
not in competition with one another. And I'm not becoming less
54:33
than for your sake, and you're not becoming less than for my sake. It's.
54:37
That is any healthy relationship. And if we're talking about kids here,
54:41
especially there and especially in the worst times,
54:45
we don't even actually probably need to make boundaries in the easy
54:49
times. Boundaries are there because it's hard. Yeah.
54:53
If everything's going swimmingly, then great,
54:56
you know, but it's. When everything gets stirred up inside
55:00
of us. Yuck. You know what I mean? Like,
55:04
so especially I love that you. That. Not just even, but especially.
55:08
Especially. I remember sitting at the dinner table
55:12
and looking out. I have four kids. They were. I don't even know one
55:17
of those times where it was like, teenagers, college students, home, maybe even
55:21
I had a middle schooler and just being like, I'm going to be here by
55:25
myself, having to like, lay my head down at night. Like, they're all going to
55:28
go off into their lives and I'm going to be left really with me,
55:32
my husband, you know, I'm going to be left here
55:36
and they're going to be kind of living their own lives. And I don't
55:39
ever want to have lost who I am. Yeah.
55:42
And that was a weird aha moment for me too. Like, wow,
55:46
this is what I really want to do. I don't want them to all be
55:50
sitting here, sitting at the dinner table in 20 years. That would be weird.
55:54
Yeah, we're on holidays. But I'm just saying, like, yeah, that's that
55:58
crock pot mindset. Like, what can I do to be responsible for myself through
56:03
all of this time and responsible to them through
56:07
all of this. Oh, very, very difficult path. This is the hard
56:11
for me. 16 to 25.
56:14
Wow. Yeah. It's funny because I was talking to a friend
56:17
this morning and I said, you know, you got about 10 more years.
56:22
You know, she's got a daughter who's 19. I was like, you. You really got
56:25
about 10 more years until she really, you know, is kind of past all this
56:29
and. And understands what's. And she was like, 10 more years,
56:33
like, when am I gonna ever have a life? And so that's what this is
56:37
all about is like, you start your life now, you don't wait the 10
56:41
years until she figures out her stuff. You start your life now.
56:45
So if you're listening today and realizing that you may
56:49
have been carrying responsibility for things that were never meant be yours,
56:52
I just want to say this gently. That realization isn't
56:57
failure. It's growth. It's part of the process of learning how
57:01
to love in a more mature way. Because as our children grow into
57:06
adulthood, the relationship we have with them is meant to grow up too.
57:09
And when we begin to release what was never ours to carry,
57:12
something really meaningful becomes possible in that
57:16
relationship. Our children get the space to fully step
57:20
into their own adulthood. And we get the opportunity to relate
57:24
to them in a new way. Not just as the parent who fixes and manages
57:28
their life, but as someone they respect, trust, and choose to
57:32
stay connected to relationship. Where advice can be offered
57:36
without control, where conversations can be honest without fear, where both
57:41
people are standing on their own feet, yet still deeply connected,
57:46
that kind of relationship isn't built through control or rescue. It grows
57:50
through trust and maybe in ways that we don't always recognize right
57:54
away. This is part of the shaping God is doing in us during this
57:58
stage of our lives, teaching us how to love our children no
58:02
longer as dependents, but as fellow adults. In many ways, the relationship
58:07
we always hoped to have with our children when they grew up is
58:10
the one we're learning to build now. Before we wrap up today,
58:14
Esther, I would love to give you a moment to share a little about the
58:18
work that you do. You offer spiritual direction and coaching. Can you
58:22
take a moment to explain what you do and how it can help people who
58:25
may be kind of navigating some of these hard seasons like the ones that we're
58:29
talking about here? Yeah. Thank you so much. This was such a powerful conversation.
58:33
I really appreciate it. So the best place for you to discover what
58:37
I have is on my website. Esther Joy gets I do
58:42
offer spiritual direction for people who are in spaces of
58:46
transition. I call it really soul companionship. And under
58:51
that umbrella, I offer mom to mom coaching because the
58:55
transition from our kids, from teens to adults is
58:59
one of the hardest things our soul will ever navigate,
59:03
our motherhood soul. And so I do do that like more
59:07
soul companionship, especially as it relates to this particular space.
59:12
So if you go on my website, you'll see something called Mom Moms of Bigs
59:16
and if you click under there, you'll see mom to mom coaching. If you want
59:19
something that's totally else and you just want companionship for your soul and it
59:24
can also relate to this, you'll see that on my website as well. But that's
59:27
our bet. My best pet. And I would feel so honored if anybody was interested
59:31
in doing that. Thank you so much. For those listening today,
59:35
if this conversation resonated with you and you want to learn
59:38
more about Esther or connect with her work, I'll include her information in
59:42
the show notes so that you can find her. Esther, thank you again for being
59:46
here today and for helping us think more deeply about the difference between responsible
59:51
to our children and feeling responsible for them. And finally, friends,
59:55
if something in this conversation stood out to you today, consider sharing this
59:59
episode with another parent who might need the reminder to because in
1:00:03
my experience, one of the hardest shifts we make in parenting, especially as
1:00:07
our kids grow older, is learning how to stay connected while letting
1:00:10
go. Thanks, Esther. Thank you.