Latest / Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast / Optimising Brain Energy, Mood and Cognitive Resilience: Evidence-Based Nutraceutical Strategies with Jo Grabyn

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Optimising Brain Energy, Mood and Cognitive Resilience: Evidence-Based Nutraceutical Strategies with Jo Grabyn · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is Wellness by Designs and I'm your host Amy Skilton.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: And joining us today is Joe Greben, who is a degree-qualified functional nutritionist.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like that is the understatement of the century.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: When we get into this conversation, you'll learn she has so many other accolades to her name, and she has collected those over the last 20 years of her practicing experience.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in the last decade, she has actually dedicated her practice in her area of interest, which is brain and mental health.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're going to be speaking about brain health through a preventative lens, particularly.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this conversation's actually ahead of an webinar I'm actually incredibly excited to tune into coming out this month in April 2026 by Jo called Optimizing Brain Energy, Mood and Cognitive Resilience.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is really a chance for me to pick your brains a little bit, Joe, and learn more about you.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's very nice to have you here.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, such a pleasure.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now tell me, you know, when I introduced you as a functional nutritionist, it almost feels like a laughable title because I know just how much training you've done since becoming qualified in that area.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So before we sort of dive into, you know, the main part of our conversation today, I would love to know, do you want to take us through first of all some of the training you've done?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm also really curious to know why in the last 10 years you have been really magnetized to this particular area.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so I guess uh a couple of years before the 10 years started, um, I saw Dale Bredison speak at a conference, and it was the first time that I'd ever seen anybody um reverse patients with dementia, right?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if we look at my family history, my grandpa passed away with dementia when I was in high school, and you know, clearly back then there was nothing you could do, and there weren't even nursing home beds for men back at that point.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was in my mid-30s, my dad had a serious accident.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, my way to cope is to understand.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So while he was sitting in a laying in in a coma in a in an ICU unit for six weeks, I sat there reading books trying to understand how I could help him to come back from with a massive brain injury.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if only I'd known then what I know now.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: So once I met Dr.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Bredison and he was sitting there saying, Well, you know, we're actually about to do our first ever uh training because we're we have reversed 10 patients.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in 400 people going, are you guys going to be training natural pass and nutritionists?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'd really like to do that, or is this just a doctor thing?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um we actually had you had to write an application letter, and my application was very much around the fact that I had a family history, I had had some brain issues in my late 30s after my dad passed away.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I really wanted to be using the skills that I was about to learn, hopefully, for prevention in women in their 30s and 40s, like going through perimenopause and menopause.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was working in an integrative medicine clinic, and you know, I was often being handed patients who were just being told by the GPs in that clinic, oh, do you know you're just going through menopause or you've just had a divorce or you work full-time and you've got three kids, and it's just stress.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sitting there going, This is such a load of garbage.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is not just stress, right?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So then I had that opportunity and I was really lucky.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: I trained basically with the senior teaching faculty of the Institute of Functional Medicine.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: So this was in California.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um the following year, I then went to IFM's conference, which is all on new gen uh neurodegeneration, and that's where I was introduced to Dr.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel Amon because mental health has also been a big area for me because I've struggled with anxiety and intermittently with depression through my life, but you know, never been medicated, always self-managed.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I also met some of the top concussion specialists in the world.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like suddenly I hear about post-concussion syndrome, and I'm like, well, okay, so we're working at at the moment the older areas of life, but you're getting these younger people who are getting these brain injuries, and that increases their, you know, dramatically increases their risk of dementia, even in their 40s and 50s, not even thinking about later.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, all of the opportunities have been about creating more links.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So from that neuroage generation conference, I saw um a conference in the in the US called Integrated Medicine for Mental Health.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was eight weeks later.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea how I was going to afford to get there because it was also in LA and I was sitting in LA.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I put it out to the universe when I'm going to buy a ticket, hopefully you'll make it possible for me to go.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then both of those things became annual trips for me to be able to continue my studies.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I've just met so many other specialists along the way in mould and in plasmalogens and you know, in various areas.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And also seven years on from my original training with Bredison, um, he had sold all these IP to Apollo Health.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I decided to upgrade my qualification to being a certified Recode 2.0 practitioner to go, you know what, there has been so much happening in the last seven years, I want to make sure I haven't missed anything.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I redid that training in uh 2023 and have just been on monthly meetings with them ever since.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just kept abreast of everything or as much as possible that's going on in that prevention and reversal space for dementia, which really is we start with brain optimization, because that's the best place to start.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: For people who are already going, either I have a family history or I know my brain doesn't work properly, but everyone's telling me I'm fine or I'm just stressed or I'm gonna pausal.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, through to the patients who have already having symptoms, whether they be quite mild or actually quite severe, and then working with those patients and their partner or a member of their family to help get them back on track and get their life back.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I knew you were deeply passionate about this, clearly, um, but I had no idea it was so deeply personal either.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for many of us practitioners, we do deep dive into those areas that have affected us personally, but you have just taken it all the way, which I really admire and commend you for.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And look, it's it's an interesting thing, isn't it?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like with brain health too, particularly because any other condition that you might have, you've still got your brain to kind of you know utilize and study.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: But once your brain starts to go, you're rendered quite powerless.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And for anyone who knows my story, I developed, you know, a very uh type of inhalation or Alzheimer's, it's currently called, or type three.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure the name is going to change over time as a result of toxic mold and the development of SERS.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what I will say, very much like you, you know, when something when that happened to me, I wanted to learn about it and and actually treat myself, but my brain just literally couldn't process new information at all.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was terrifying.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time in my life where I couldn't actually take the reins of my own healing and and had to outsource that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: But during that time, of course, I became really familiar with Dale Bredison's work, and I am such a fan of what he's doing.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a fan of how he's treated by other facets of the community as far as Alzheimer's goes.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's doing everybody a disservice, um, ignoring his incredible work.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: But also, like you said, so many people, and I do think there is a bias for women here where our cognitive faculties aren't what they used to be, should be, could be.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of chalked up to this, that, and the other.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that was actually true for me, you know, in the wider scope of SERS, I was developing symptoms and I sort of said, Oh, I'm burnt out, I'm tired, maybe I'm not getting enough sleep.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And wasn't necessarily I was gaslighting myself, but I was, you know, looking at all these other reasons rather than taking direct and immediate action, you know, to what was clearly a mitochondrial issue and an inflammatory issue.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that really brings us to your work here, where you're looking at all the drivers around brain health.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things I want to say before we dive into all of the clinical pearls that you have is that currently in the allopathic space, mental health is treated as if it's independent from brain health.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: There is a very small crossover with post-traumatic, you know, um like brain injury, you know, effects, if you like, post-concussion syndrome, things like that, where the two meet very gently.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, you know, mental health is part of the functioning of the brain, and you can only be as mentally healthy as your brain is healthy, um, you know, all other psychological circumstances aside, which is why I think this webinar is just a must attend for practitioners.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly in your clinic, I know you do a lot with brain health once symptoms have developed, but also you're very passionate about prevention.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to talk about both of those things in this conversation.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in terms of cognitive health, what we know to be true as practitioners, because the brain is responsible for so many things, we know brain fog, you know, reduced focus, concerns with memory and recall, or executive functioning, mental fatigue, even disruption in sleep and mood, and even secondary things like hormones, even given the brain is the master controller and director of all of those things, can be significantly influenced.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like hormone problems can be primarily coming from you know dysfunction in the brain sometimes.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so, with that being said, one of some of the drivers you're talking about in this webinar are mitochondrial production, neurotransmitters, of course, um, oxidative stress and neuroinflammation, which I think is so key because neurotransmitters are really secondary to the ability for receptors to receive those communications, um, hormonal transitions, of course, like menopause and andropause, and the influence of those alongside the obvious things like chronic stress and nervous system dregulation.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd love to hear the way that you view the brain through this, and I've borrowed your term here, the bioenergetic model.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk us through what that means and the way you see that as a clinician?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, I will try.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I know it's a big ask.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do I snapshot that?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think from a big picture perspective, irrespective of what's going on in your brain, we have to look at as many pieces as we possibly can.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, yes, it's about brain energy, it's about cellular energy.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's literally down to is are our um is our Krebs cycle working properly in all of the places that it needs to?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it's not, um, you know, even say, for example, if you look at something like methylation, like we always used to think of when we first learned about methylation, it was very much about methylation was about mental health, and it was a um a very tiny part of it of all of our biochemistry.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I always I Rachel Arthur was one of my mentors, and I, in fact, I was lucky I was the last class she ever taught before she went off to, you know, um look after the world.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And she always said, you know, like in the big picture of you know, um biochemistry, it's like this tiny little dot down in the corner of a massive big board.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: But when we think about the fact that methylation isn't just about producing um neurotransmitters, methylation happens inside of every single cell, and ATP happens inside of every single cell.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on the cell in the body as to how many mitochondria it has, therefore, how much energy does that cell need?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, our brain cells have, it's in very simplistic terms, our brain cells have the most mitochondria of, you know, of any other um system in the body.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think your eyes come after that, and then your heart and so forth.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, we would, you know, we would think, oh, it's your heart that has to have the most energy.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, your brain does, because it runs everything.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So when things aren't working properly, and it can take decades to show up that you know, our that you know, our hormones aren't running the way that they're supposed to, or that generally, you know, suddenly we're not thinking clearly.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: That didn't happen yesterday unless it was a brain injury.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Say, for example, with my dad, very different story.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but with many of our patients, and this is where we're going through those steps, um, you know, like it's terrifyingly, the youngest person diagnosed with Alzheimer so far is 19.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And even when I started, my when I first trained with Dale back in 2016, he was like, Oh, everyone at 40 should get a cognoscopy.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we still get emails of people going, can I see Joe for a cognoscopy?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you do understand that's not one test, right?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this big overview of what's going on.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And now when we look at things, you know, like my youngest patient is 38 and he's a GP, you know, and he's he's not in prevention, he's in reversal.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um, my youngest female patient is 52, and she was diagnosed a week before her 52nd birthday, after her her husband and her older her daughter begging for answers, going, menopause doesn't make you forget how to fold a blanket.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: But she'd forgotten how to fold a blanket and how to hang her washing out.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to look at all of the pieces that affect bio bioenergetics within a cell.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it hormones, is it food, is it a depletion of nutrients, is it a depletion of hormones, is it toxins, is it, you know, chronic stress that's actually just disabled the capacity for the body to be using reproductive hormones because it's so busy making stress hormones it hasn't got time to, or ingredients per se, to do anything else?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, is it are there things traveling from the gut via the vagus nerve into the brain creating a problem?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's so many different things.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then from the other side of us providing energy in a sense, there's also, you know, are we do we have patients who are, for want of a better term, a couch potato versus, you know, someone who's maybe overly active, because there's pros and cons around both of those as well.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's so many ways that our brain actually needs energy, and there's so many ways that we can deplete it without intentionally meaning to, just purely because medicine has always siloed everything.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, you go to a neurologist, apparently that's just about your brain, but you go to a psychiatrist and that's also about your brain, but it can't be about your brain.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, the gastro, and it's like, hang on a minute, but your gut's directly connected to your brain.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So surely you guys need to be talking to one another.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But all of these things don't happen.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, learning from Dr.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Bredison and then implementing like and all of these other amazing brains around the world, it's sort of enabled me to create a like an assessment model where I dig into everything.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, you know, there's no such thing as a one-hour initial consult in my office.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you can't cover someone's life in that amount of time because the it's the finest detail that will decide the different areas that we need to look at.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit like your story with your inhalational um Alzheimer's, if you hadn't been asked the right questions, if you hadn't been given the time to be able to pull out that information, it may not have been found.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's such a it's such a complex web.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I mean, I don't really know how to solve this problem in the sense that, you know, specialists have to know so much in their area of specialty, asking to be specialists and every other area for a system-based approach is a you know a really extreme ask.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, that's where naturopathic care comes in because we are such a, you know, we we look at that whole web.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if I was to use myself as an example, you know, I developed chronic fatigue syndrome, um, which, you know, an absolute lack of ATP, which was a result of inflammation that was triggered by toxins.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a mitochondrial issue, so low ATP production.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and please correct me if this has been updated, but last time I read, like the brain uses 25% roughly of all the energy we produce.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as there's a fuel shortage, which feels like a very timely term to be using here in 2026, like this there's something's going to be compromised, and and often it is the brain because it's such a fuel hungry organ.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then, of course, so there's an energy deficit, you know, mycotoxins damage the lining of the gut, which compromises nutrient absorption, which and you know, so many of those nutrients are required for enzymatic activity, including mitochondrial function.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you have an innate immune system that is creating extreme amounts of inflammation, so that's immunology.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have these mycotoxins that need to be removed from the body, that's toxicology, there's like just so many you know elements to it, and that's just even just scratching the surface of SERS and that example.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: But what that means is when you're helping someone with let's just call it brain dysfunction, whatever that might be, whether it's mood or memory and and all of the other things, as you said, the secret can lie in the tiniest detail of their case history.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna get into that in just a moment.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: But you're having to look at so many elements of the body, so many different systems and how they they work together and then triage those things in order to be able to reverse someone out of you know the road that they went down on with, you know, one thing after another.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I know you're going to be covering in this webinar all of the different elements that you look at.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And even then, this webinar is almost a just a tasting platter of what you know, because I know I have a sense of what you know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I would love to hear, I know we spoke about one case study earlier, but if you have any case studies where you started digging and you know, whether early on or a little bit later on you uncovered like the golden key to either the root cause or what was going to help them actually reclaim their brain function.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have anything you want to share with us about that?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's sort of like which one?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I go to?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think you know that it is rare, Amy, for us to have a patient who it's like, what's the one golden key, to be completely honest?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like even from a Bredison perspective, he talks about the five types, but even then there's a 1.5 and you know, there's more to it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but often it can be like, you know, we'll start doing an assessment.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Patients often have their own thoughts on what's going on with their brain, or maybe when it happened, or where it started.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's one of the reasons why we do such extensive testing.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you're never going to find it just from their blood test.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't do their blood test, there's a lot that you won't find.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, it's sometimes, you know, DNA, it's interesting because they talk about the ApoE4 as being, you know, the Alzheimer's gene.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And at one point, I think it was only two years ago, there was some information that came out of the US where they was trying to say, oh, if you've got two copies of the ApoE4, we're going to call that a diagnostic.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yet I've seen patients in their 80s who have no sign of dementia, but they have two copies of ApoE4.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not even people who have lived what you would consider to be an easy or healthy life.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's always so much more going on.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think um one of the ones that one of the cases that I love the most is actually a patient who have just reassessed lately, but she is a double ApoE4.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's a PhD psychologist.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I met her at 69.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um Her son, who is her health coach, he lives he's a dancer living in the US and now in Berlin, but he speaks to his mum every day and he's been helping her through all of her supplementation and her diet and coaching her very regularly on everything that we need to do.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And she came with sleep issues and um major anxiety and depression problems and major cognitive issues to the point that her GP had told the son, you probably need to start looking for a nursing home place for your mum because she's maybe got a year before she won't be functional anymore, particularly the fact that you know none of her kids can live with her and look after her.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was six years ago.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we they he just did a took it, he was here, so he took his mum for a follow-up with the same GP who had been doing blood blood work for us intermittently, but had really not seen the patient for five years or so.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so she decided that she wanted to do um a mocha and an MMSE.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this patient now is not even considered, she's completely normal.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: She's considered to have no cognitive issues whatsoever.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the biggest changes for her was um she lives in an area of Sydney that's very leafy, that's very like it's in a gully, so there was no drying out.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: And purely on position, I said, look, can we please have her home assessed?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't even test her for mold.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, can we please just have a building biologist biologist go in and test her home for mold?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't throughout the whole apartment.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't have to move out.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: They they did remediation of two particular areas, and obviously we did a lot of detoxification on top of, you know, the dietary change and um, you know, certain things around sauna and all of her supplementation.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: But for her, it was like something no one had ever thought of was the one piece that was probably the most important piece because it's like her mum had had Alzheimer's but hadn't really that hadn't reared its head until her late 80s, early 90s.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And here this patient was and she was in her 60s and things were going sideways.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you could have looked at it and gone, oh, you know, it's just because she's very stressed and she has anxiety, or oh, she has insomnia, and it's just about that.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we are still working through the somatic and the psychosomatic body therapies for her because her anxiety is probably one thing we've had massive improvements, but we haven't kind of gotten totally on top of it.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: But for her, six years later, now in her late 70s, being told by the doctor actually you don't have any signs of dementia.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, what have you been doing?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's the there are cases like that that inspire me every day because I know that when patients and their families are willing to put in the work, they're willing to let us dig deep on what's going on.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then she actually said to me last time, she was the happiest I've ever seen her.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, you know, Jo, my friends turn around to me and go, Oh, how can you do it?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: How can you not eat cake?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And how can you take all those supplements?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And she's just like, How could I not?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like they said I'd be basically in a box by now, you know, and here I am living a better life than I was living 10 years ago.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know, that is just so powerful.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, there's something to be said for knowing your genetic risk, even though we have to be mindful that genetics aren't the be-all and end all, and that the environment has such a significant role to play in how they express themselves.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, knowledge is power, and if you are understandably, like anyone, probably would be motivated not to end up with Alzheimer's, you can make those interventional changes early on and you know, potentially arrest it, potentially reverse it, potentially slow it down.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, why wouldn't you?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because the alternative is certainly not more appealing.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just think that's incredible, and it's such a shame that we're still at this stage and in you know, the timeline of humanity where it's gonna take these cases over and over before the narrative starts to shift around what's possible in the mainstream arena.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I hate to think how many people are going to be robbed of the opportunity to achieve exactly what this patient of yours did.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and and you're right, it does take commitment and a lot of self-love to actually apply those um, you know, recommendations, but also, as you said, she's the happiest and most vital she's felt in a very long time.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Who doesn't want that?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which I think is an absolute win-win.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear whatever you're willing to feeling comfortable sharing, how you have found dealing with medical professionals in other facets of medicine where this kind of these kind of results and this kind of approach feels, let's call it blasphemous, because it's it's it goes against what they've been taught that it's possible.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do you go with networking with other medical professionals in this current sort of state of understanding?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm actually really glad you asked me that question because it was just something that was going through my head while you were talking.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so last year in August, I actually spoke at the ATMS Healthy Brain Symposium, which was for practitioners.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a geriatrician there who had made it quite well known to the um management of ATMS that he didn't believe in Bredison and he didn't think that what I was going to speak about was evidence-based.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, given my anxiety, I was pretty worried about speaking.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I can only talk if I can talk before him because I don't want to get ripped shreds.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like my presentation was completely evidence-based, and I started with all of the Lancet evidence showing that now up to 45% of cases can actually be prevented if we're looking at the right things.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, he came up to me afterwards and he said, Joey said, I wish we'd dovetailed our slides because we had a lot of crossover, but he said, You should be speaking at the International Dementia Conference because no one is talking about prevention.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, the problem is that, you know, and one of the facts that I put out there, which is, I think, quite terrifying, is that the Young Onset Dementia Group, which is the category means anybody under 65 who is diagnosed with dementia, is our fastest growing population group for diagnoses.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And at the moment, that's generally people in their 40s and 50s, like they generally think late 40s to 50s.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: But the evidence shows that probably by um 2050 that we will well and truly have many people in their 30s in that category.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, as a geriatrician, I can't even have a patient referred to me until they're 65.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So he said, there is this huge gap of people who are not being looked after, who medicine aren't willing to even acknowledge the fact that there could be a chance of dementia of some description in most cases.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, the truth is, I'm generally seeing, he said, the average woman sees me at 79 and the average man sees me at 82, because I think I'm the last stop before a nursing home.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a very small percentage of doctors who are are open to it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have a couple of GPs that I work with, and they do send me their patients who they're like, oh, this patient needs prevention or this patient's already got a problem.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Often your prevention patients are um meant to sort of put them in a box, but they're often wealthier, have a family history, they're in a position, they've, you know, maybe been saying an integrative doctor because they've had to have lots of insurance checkups and things like that, because they are higher net wealth patients.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: But they're just like, I do not want to go down the same track as my parents or my grandparents.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I know now that there is a lot of research out there that can make that happen.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it's still such a small percentage of um GPs, to be honest.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like my experience is that neurologists, I'm yet to find a neurologist who's really on board with the fact that we can actually turn things around for patients.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of that comes up around, you know, I see a lot of post-concussion syndrome patients who probably are, you know, on the road to CTE.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And first line of treatment for CTE is an antidepressant.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, hang on a minute, this person has a very, very damaged brain.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we need to be working with their neuroinflammation and their oxidative stress and their brain injuries that have happened time and time and time again.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And often by that point, they have, you know, all of the things that we would cover off are the things that are being ignored and they're being given a scan, a diagnosis, get your affairs in order, and if I can give you anything, it'll be this prescription.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in the US, they seem to be a lot more open-minded.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my experience, sadly, here is that it's, I would say, a 0.00% of doctors are willing to really look at it.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: The patient that I mentioned earlier who got the diagnosis to a week before her 52nd birthday, they'd been through three neurologists and two years of testing to finally find someone who was open-minded enough to really take into consideration that maybe she did have dementia, who finally did an FDG PET scan.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But before that, everyone was just like, no, no, it's just menopause.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's a tragedy.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's so many people that it's also for me where I think our job as naturopaths and natural medicine practitioners is um so crucial because people come to us for preventative medicine, you know, or they come to us for other pieces that we can pull together.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it's just, you know, they're just like, oh, by the way, on top of the problem I've come to for, I also have really bad brain brain fog, you know, is that normal?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: So immediately it's like, well, so what's the lens that I need to be looking through to dig deeper for this patient?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because is it just that they're not sleeping very well, or is it just that, you know, they're doing too much international travel or blah, blah.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, that's really fascinating.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and as you were talking, I was thinking, it is the wealthier men and women who are have the means to search for those answers and maybe course correct down the line.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I am thinking about people who are not in as privileged position, that's why they're not in the doctor's office saying, What can I do?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: and insisting on you know getting these specialist tests that cost money, that are then relegated to a one-way direction of cognitive decline and and a nursing home in all likelihood, which is so heartbreaking.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's probably, you know, for the most part, we're all helping people once they become symptomatic, but this is also where your passion for preventative care comes from, and I think that's definitely an area I think as humankind we could do so much more in because so many people will only take action once things are actually bothering them.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I would love to know, like in terms of like the balance of how much you're treating symptom-wise versus preventative care, like, are you seeing that shift?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what would you say are the top three or so things that people should be doing to protect their brain health as early as humanly possible?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think from a lifestyle perspective, one, okay, let me take a step back.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to be having better conversations with our GPs and asking for more tests than the the usual suspects.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because some of the things that we need to have looked at aren't really outside the square.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, really, if we wanted home assistine, we'd like vitamin D, we'd like B12, we'd like folate, we'd like B6, it'd be great if we could have some plasma zinc.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: But even if you ignore it at the zinc and you just go those basics, it's a really, you know, obviously along with biochemistry and those types of things.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just asking that of your GP because, you know, your vitamin D is, as we all know, says a lot about your immune status.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if we could get a high sensitivity CRP rather than just a CRP and understand that we want the measurement to be under one, not just in range.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is are our kidneys working well or our livers, is our liver working well?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: From a lifestyle perspective, I think, you know, things like managing our sleep better, really having good sleep hygiene practices, doing your best to be in bed for eight hours around eating windows for that means, you know, try not to eat after three hours prior to your bedtime and try to get 12 hours between dinner and breakfast.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, then using supplements to support that.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: So things like saffron and magnesium three and eight for sleep, so you're going to get more deep sleep.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Mag three and eight also helps with cognition and memory.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, appropriate amounts of exercise, you know, I'm not saying you need to go and run a marathon five times a week.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when I first trained with Dale, it was funny because the there was a much bigger push towards aerobic exercise.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, you know, if we're looking at can we get 45 to 60 minutes five times a week?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And most people have a coronary when you ask them to do that amount of exercise, it's like, where do I find the time?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just in the last couple of years, weight training has become, you know, it they they now show two 45-minute weight training sessions per week is better for your brain than those five cardio sessions, um, and that your leg strength correlates with your brain.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when we think about it from a menopausal perspective, we know that as women start to go through many perimenopause and then menopause, A, they don't they actually don't digest their protein as well.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they need a whole lot more than the RDI of 0.8 grams per kilo per day.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, my menopause of women are on two grams per kilo per day.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: That will help them with um minimize their sarcopenia, so their muscle loss help them put muscle on when they're now learning how to weight train appropriately.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, we all of our amino acids we need for all of our neurotransmitters, like it's just so important.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And yet people generally fill their day with carbohydrates rather than with protein or the great nutrients that we get from the plant world.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think you know, for so for me, it's optimizing sleep and using the right nutrients that requ that help that, um, getting the right exercise and the right amount of exercise.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: So at least those two 45-minute weight training sessions a week.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you can do some extra cardio, great, do that.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or do if you're still fit enough to do some HIIT training, you know, do that rather than like some of my patients.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, do your 45 minutes of weights and then go and do 10 to 15 minutes of Tabata style HIIT, and then that's going to increase your BDNF levels.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: So exercise is one piece, and then really coming up with strategies to minimize and manage your stress because you know, I was always taught that um our hormones are a privilege, not a right.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, if your stress hormones are if it are stri sealing all of you, the ingredients for your hormones, then it makes it very difficult to be able to make the other hormones that our bodies need to be able to make everything operate well.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then that also depletes our brain.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, wow.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that hormones are uh are a pretty much sort of right, they're they're like a nice to have, there are other mission critical uh things going on in the body, and it's a you know, only if you've got enough left over, you'll uh you'll be able to have those too.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, and again, that comes down to inflammation, mitochondrial function, nervous system safety, um, and all of those things.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and speaking of nervous system safety, you did mention magnesium three and eight, you're a big fan of that, and no doubt for many reasons, but synaptic plasticity, memory, and in terms of its relevance not just for sleep, but other things to do with brain health.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know in the webinar you're going to be going through the different forms of magnesium and where they can specifically target brain health, but I'm curious to know about other nutrients.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned BDNF, and there are lots of ways to raise BDNF, including reducing neuroinflammation.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about how much you love saffron because I am absolutely a member of the fan club.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: So saffron is one of those herbs that has been so beautifully researched in the brain health space, um, to the extent that it's been put into studies head to head with some of the so-called Alzheimer's drugs like mammantine and nepazil for memory.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's various study, various study lengths, um, sort of from 22 through 22 weeks through to six months and beyond, showing that 30 milligrams of the affron version of saffron over those periods of time became more effective for helping people's memory and cognitive state than the drugs.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now we all know that you know, herbs, anything that's natural based has, you know, a multitude of functions, not just uh, oh, this is one molecule and it does that.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact that we actually have the studies to prove that it became more effective over time than the medication is to me a no-brainer as far as pardon the pun, as far as the dose that we use for prevention or the dose that we use for treatment.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the beautiful, the other beautiful thing is that it's so beneficial for um anxiety and for sleep that it's like it goes into any prevention or reversal mix for me because and I'm an I'm a nutritionist, I'm not a herbalist, so I won't use liquid herbs, but the Afron allows us to do that in a different way.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the studies have been done on that particular form.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a huge fan of that.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Always there.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And another big one for anxiety too is L-thenine.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to know like where you lean on that for daytime anxiety or sleep or both.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you like to use it in your protocols?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: I use it for both.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: It depends like for depending on the patient.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first learnt about theanine, it was actually the first time I ever went to integrated medicine for mental health.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't even an ingredient that had been launched here in Australia yet.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the there was all these functional psychiatrists and they're talking about theanine, and their view was that the only side effect of theanine was sedation.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, So when someone's not sleeping because they're anxious, just give them more at nighttime.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you learn along the way that there are a few other things that, you know, are contraindications for theanine, like any medication or any supplement.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I use theanine for any patient with overwhelm, high stress, anxiety, and that that brain spin that makes it that creates that inability to think.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say it's like being on the hamster wheel and it won't stop.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like you have so many things spinning in your head that you can't, whether that be trying to get to sleep or trying to function in your day, that you can't you can't actually grab a hold of one of them because it's like being in a tornado of thoughts.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I find the theanine is you take theanine, it's like there's that deep breath I couldn't take.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's that one thing that I want to do.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then when someone also has sleep initiation problems, then I give them a higher dose before they go to bed.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I find it helps both on the like my ADHD patients get it.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've got children that are on it if they have anxiety or ADHD.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I find, you know, so from a it helps with mood balance, but it also helps with that, you know, all that that this might sound strange, but that mental capacity to breathe.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Take a deep breath and check back in with yourself and go, what next?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, many of my menopausal patients get really they're like, I've never had anxiety in my life and suddenly it's off the chart and I like, what is this kind of thing?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I find those types of patients get, you know, huge benefit from theanine.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, our conscious waking state is typically a beta wave state, and with stress, it's you know, elevated beta waves, and things can get really chaotic and choppy from a mental thought perspective.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas theanine allows you to drop into that alpha wave state, which is a flow state, a focused and calm state, which you know can be achieved by meditation by some people, but when your brain waves are chaotic and choppy, meditation isn't probably going to get you there.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: So theonine is just such a gift for that.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just sort of rounding out that conversation regarding mitochondrial health and how energy hungry the brain is.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime there's a deficit in energy, of course, functionality is going to be compromised.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a couple of other ingredients I want to hear about um from you.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And let's start with the one who's currently having its time to shine, and that's creatine.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I know where you're going with this.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, every second human being I think is chugging it for one reason or another now.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so here for it, actually.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad it's moved out of the domain of you know, gym goers and and muscle function, although understanding that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: The connection between you know muscle mass and and cognition and mitochondrial function is of course a a strong one, but talk to me about how you're utilizing creatine for cognitive benefits too.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, someone just came through on my phone and somehow my phone is connected to my AirPods, and that phone isn't even here at my desk.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: So apologies, I don't need to be edited.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay, that's fine.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um Marcus has got it.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the interesting thing is I actually started when I was studying sports nutrition.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent, you know, 70% of my time while I was studying was actually with bodybuilders and professional athletes, and you know, creatine was all about loading and power and you know, dealing with all of that stuff.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then probably uh although the research, the heavy research into the capacity to use creatine for brain health probably started about um 15, I think about 15 years ago, it's really only, I think, come to the forefront to practitioners to use and really for people to talk about in the last five years.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: And given, as we said, how energy hungry our brain cells are, because they have all of those mitochondria, therefore they have all of that ATP that they need to build, you know, creatine is such a useful nutrient.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's also helps with sleep.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had a patient a couple of days ago who went, Oh, I don't want to take creatine at night because it gives you energy.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, no, it doesn't give you energy to burn like a coffee, it gives your brain and the cells energy to actually run their energy production cycles well.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yes, we would normally split the dose because sometimes there is a gut tolerance issue for some people.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the research is sort of bouncing at the moment between three to five grams a day is enough through to 10 grams is a bit more optimal.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's certain research showing that a higher dose, like 3.5 grams per kilo of body weight, um, on a day that you've been totally sleep deprived and you're absolutely brain dead, like that real jet lag if you're not someone like I don't sleep on international flights, I don't sleep on flights full stops like LA for a conference and I haven't slept in 36 hours, things are not things are not good, and I'm not gonna remember very much.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we find that those bigger doses intermittently, like that 20, 25 grams a day, but that is not a daily dose.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing I really want to push because I think to me, five to ten grams and also take a day, and I would split that between morning and night, so you get some of the sleep benefits as well.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because the other thing we have to think about is that when we're sleeping, our brain is actually going through lymphatic drainage.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's doing its repair, it's doing its cleanup, it's doing its clean out, and so it needs the energy to do that, although we're sleeping.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean prefeats, you know, when we look at it compared to a lot of other supplements, it's um, you know, it costs next to nothing.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it has such astounding bang for its buck as far as the way that it helps so many different systems of our body, but particularly our brain, to be able to keep running every day because it is so um hungry, if you like.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is so fuel hungry.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, it's easy to forget that falling asleep is a process that requires enough energy in order to initiate sleep.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think anyone who's been a parent and has tried to put an overt child to bed, that becomes really evident uh also.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and certainly, yes, I anything that requires fuel to do, which is literally everything in the body, will benefit.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I personally have experienced even just two or three grams of creatine has made a profound difference to my cognitive function if I've had a bad night's sleep.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, personalized medicine is is always the key.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it would be remiss of me not to um include NR in this conversation and its ability to support NAD production.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share any last little clinical pearls with us about that nutrient?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love NR and I've like I know that there's so much speculation in the industry, and I might be about to get myself shot here, but because there's NR and then suddenly there was NMN and NAD as an infusion or as a supplement, and I've experienced all of them and utilized them at different times.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that I love about NR is that um, you know, it is the right step required to get that um nice and if you like through the cell wall to then be able to be converted to NMN and then to NAD.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's working in in line with our biochemical processes, where and all the majority of the research has been on humans.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's um NMN, most trials have not been.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I'm not sure that there's any trials that have been done on humans.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And NAD is incredibly unstable and super, super expensive.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like even um it's very challenging, even as an an intravenous um treatment, you know, and you feel it in your brain when you get given an IV of NAD.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, NR, it's way more cost effective.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: The research is on us, um, and the evidence you know shows that we're giving our brain what it needs and our cells what they need to make the NAD.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's this is one of those places where you know, more is not better.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: So to take the NAD is actually, apart from burning a hole in your back pocket, is also you know, it's really questionable as to how well that's going to work, whereas the evidence is all there for NR.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's it's why that's the um my, I guess you could say my niacin version of choice.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I yeah, I completely understand that.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say I've heard an awful lot of feedback from people who have have had NAD infusions and some just really unpleasant experiences with it.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I'm I'm not of the belief that healing has to hurt in order to help.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so to me, that just doesn't make sense, um, at least not at this stage where the stability issue is, you know, really questionable.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but certainly, even just in our conversation today, I've learned so much from you and I am personally incredibly excited about your upcoming webinar.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: And for anybody listening, I mean, I feel like we all have a brain, we all need it to be functioning optimally.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: We should all be all be at your webinar.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll make sure we pop the link to the event in the show notes below so you can register yourself for that.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening to this webinar and the webinar has been and gone, don't worry, you can log into your Designs for Health account and watch the replay.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: But all of that said, Joe, I just want to thank you so very, very much for being such an incredibly dedicated practitioner in deep diving in this area.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're so lucky to benefit from your knowledge, and this webinar, I'm sure, is gonna be incredibly enlightening for practitioners and also very much appreciate your time on the podcast today.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, and I can't wait to do the webinar.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be amazing.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Joe, and thank you everyone for joining us today.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, you can find all of the show notes and other podcasts on the Australian Designs for Health website.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: I am Amy Skilton, and this is Wellness by Designs.