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“Darkest before a deal.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Democratic officials express optimism about a potential
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: deal on Joe Biden's economic plan. Journalist Amy Westervelt from
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the climate podcast Hot Take joins to talk about whether
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: we can still save the planet with Joe Manchin in
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the Senate. And as the president prepares to take questions
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: from voters at tonight's CNN town hall, reporters are whining
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: that he's not taking more questions from them. Two quick
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: notes before we start. Check out the final episodes of
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: 544 Days, where host and journalist Jason Rezaian remains in
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: prison as the clock ticks down on the possible nuclear
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: deal between Iran and the Obama administration. Find out how
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Jason finally escaped after being wrongfully accused of being an
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: American spy. Listen and follow for free only on Spotify. Also,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: we need your help. Vote Save America is working to
• 1:10
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• 1:15
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• 1:17
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• 1:20
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• 1:39
  Speaker 1: by heading to votesaveamerica.com slash donate. All right. Hey, hold on.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold. Is there no offline with
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Jon Favreau promo in this episode?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't in my marketing materials, Dan. No,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I did the... I did the offline promo on Monday.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: People, you got to hammer it home. Repetition. You think
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: people run a commercial once and then just hope people
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: buy their product?
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: No.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Go listen to Offline. It comes out Sunday. It is
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: an idea. I am very angry that John came up
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: with and I didn't because it is phenomenal. So go listen.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: It's going to be awesome.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Dan. See, Dan's sold a bunch of books.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: You're a big book guy, so you know what it
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: takes to pitch.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Don't you wait. You have But yeah, I know. Yeah,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Offline is coming out this Sunday. The first episode is
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: with Gia Tolentino. It is fantastic. We talk about why
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the internet has driven us crazy. Gia is very smart
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: on this. She's written an entire book on it. So
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: check it out. Sunday morning, Offline. It's right in the
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America feed. A lot of people have been
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: asking how to subscribe. Don't worry about it. If you're
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: a Pod Save America subscriber, it'll be in your phone
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: first thing Sunday morning. So you are good to go.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: All right. Let's get to the news. And for once,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: it may actually be good. Democrats from every wing of
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the party are starting to sound hopeful that a deal
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: may be near on Joe Biden's economic plan. The reporting
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: is still all over the place in terms of what's
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: in and what's out. There are still some pretty big
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: issues to resolve that we will talk about in a second.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: And obviously, the final deal will not include everything that
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: most of us, most of us who don't represent the
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: state of West Virginia or the state of Arizona in
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: the Senate wanted. But if it passes, If the bill passes,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: it will be transformative, making historic investments in education, health care,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: child care, elder care, housing, infrastructure and climate change paid
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: for by taxes on the rich. Again, Joe Manchin and
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Kyrsten Sinema have killed a lot of important shit and
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: continue to be very annoying. But Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, who
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: was on the show the other week, was just saying
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: yesterday that the progressive caucuses priorities are still in the bill.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: And our friend Senator Brian Schatz told reporters yesterday, I
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: haven't seen this much optimism since right before we passed
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: the American Rescue Plan. What do you think, Dan? Are
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: we all jinxing it? Would you like to rain on
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: this parade? No, I'm not going to. I woke up
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: today and chose optimism. That's my thing today. Tomorrow could
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: be something else. But for right now, I chose optimism.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am not going to rain on anyone's parade.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that today. I know that
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: is a thing I tend to do. Look, I think
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: the tone the Democrats are using is right, which is
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: it feels like for the first time in months, the
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: car is moving forward. We are going somewhere. We don't
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: know where that is.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: So it's not in the ditch? It's not in the ditch.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: No one listening to this knows. No one even producing
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: this show is old enough to even know that. Wine
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: that you've masterminded and made so popular.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Just Google, Google car ditch Obama. You'll find what we're
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: talking about.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Anyhow, I knew when I was doing this, I was
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: stepping in it with the car metaphor. Either way, it
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: seems like we are... When you and I did this
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: podcast one week ago today, we were going nowhere fast.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: And now it feels like there is some momentum behind
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: the idea that something has to get done. People are finally...
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: having real discussions about what's in, what's out. They're making decisions.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: The obstinate ones are coming to terms with the fact
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: that something is going to move and they're going to
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: have to figure out where they want to draw the
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: line and where not. And, you know, a lot of
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: the progressives who, you know, not even just progressives, the
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: vast majority of the party who had perhaps, I include
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: myself on this list, naive hopes about what we were
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: going to convince Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema to do.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: We're coming to terms with the fact we're not going
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: to get everything we want. So these things have a
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: feel to them. There's a rhythm to them. And right
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: now we feel like we're in the moment where we
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: have sort of stared political apocalypse in the face and
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: we're beginning to move forward. A lot of distance to
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: go here, but progress.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: A little darkest before the dawn action. Why do you
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: think it's happening now? Why do you think Democrats are
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: finally getting serious about this and making progress?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Well, we're running out of time, right? The clock is ticking.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I think when the combination of Joe Manchin saying in
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: some way, shape, or form that he's against a clean
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: energy standard and Kyrsten Sinema saying that in some way, shape,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: or form, which I know we'll talk about this a
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: little bit later, against a whole bunch of the most
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: popular and important parts of the bill, now it's sort
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: of like now we know the ground in which we're going.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: I think the president's gotten more engaged. He is heading
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: abroad soon. He sort of has created a deadline for
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: to try to get something done, which I think is
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: very important. I think people are starting to feel pressure
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: about Virginia. You've had both Terry McAuliffe and Senator Mark
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Warner making a push to get the bipartisan infrastructure bill
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: done before the Virginia election in a couple of weeks.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: And I think people are looking at the polls in
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Virginia and are quite concerned. And so you sort of
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: feel a desire that what we have been doing is
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: not working, so we've got to try something else, and
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: that's actually trying to get something done.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Three big deadlines all within days of each other.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: October 31st, money for transportation runs out. And so if
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: the infrastructure bill isn't passed by then, you actually could
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: get into some issues where, you know, roads and bridges
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: that are currently being fixed run out of funding and
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: they would have to, you know, they'd have to reauthorize
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: more temporary funding, which means another vote in Congress, which
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: is a pain in the ass. So that's October 31st.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: November 1st, the next day is the beginning of the
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: climate summit, uh, in Glasgow. And then, uh, the next day,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: November 2nd is the Virginia election. So yeah, might want
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: to get things wrapped up before those, uh, those big deadlines.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: And I do think you're right about Joe Biden's involvement.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that whole thing? Because, you know,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: the white house is like, well, he's been involved the
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: entire time. Democrats in Congress were like, well, he's sort
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: of been involved, but he's been really involved lately. And
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: that's really helped. Like, what do you think? What do
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: you make of all that?
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Here's one thing I know from our time in the
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: White House is that whenever things aren't going well in
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: the Congress, it's always the president's fault. He's either too involved.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: He's not involved enough. He's golfing too much. Why isn't
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: he golfing with members of Congress? Like, I don't know.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: The problem here ultimately was.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: There's like a pyramid of blame. It's like, When things
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: aren't going well in Congress, it's the White House's fault.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Within the White House, when things aren't going well, then
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: it's the communications team fault. Yes. So first the Congress
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: blames the White House, the policy people in the White
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: House blame the comms team, and the comms team blames
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: the press.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: That's at the end of the day.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Which is actually the correct, which is the correct place
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to lay all the blame.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, everything. And I mean,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: everything is Politico's fault. Anyhow.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: But you were, you were saying something about Biden. Yeah.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Something somewhere about Biden. Yes. Yeah. I think he's gotten
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: more involved for sure. And I think it's because this
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: was the moment to get involved. You can't, there's just,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he was way more involved than he was
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: getting credit for before. But it was impossible to have
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: a real brass tacks conversation about what to do when
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: you don't know the parameters of what can be done.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: And Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin were setting the parameters
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: of what came in. And Kyrsten Sinema in particular, according
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: to the reports, has been very vague and frankly quite
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: unavailable for very important discussions about the future of the
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: planet in recent weeks. It seems now that because of
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: these deadlines, because we're sort of running out of runway here,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: everyone is getting in a room together. We're sort of
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: past the part of, performance and leverage making and all
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: that were just people are sitting in a room. And
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: this is one thing that you and I don't probably
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: work with that Joe Biden is very, very good at.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: This was sort of his value proposition as a candidate
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: was that he could get in a room and he
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: could get things done. Now, in some versions of that argument,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: it was Democrats and Republicans. And to his credit, he
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: did do that on the BIF, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Framework.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: But here it's like even almost perhaps harder than brokering
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: a deal between Schumer, Pelosi, McCarthy and McConnell, maybe brokering
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: one between Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema and the rest of
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: the Democrats. And, you know, and so it's it's happening.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: And I think we're going to see where we go
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: from here. Yeah.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: And you're hearing this from members of Congress, right? not
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: just from us, about Biden's negotiating skills here. Punchbowl News
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: did sort of a rundown of some quotes from different
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: members of Congress coming out of various meetings this week.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Representative Mark Pocan, who is a progressive member of Congress
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: from Wisconsin, he said, I got to admit, as a
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: guy who traveled three states for Bernie Sanders, I'm impressed.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Biden does most of his stuff behind the scenes. He
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: only brings something to the public when he has to
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: bring it to a public fight. And then from the
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: other wing of the party, John Tester, who's more moderate, said,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I think I told you all that nothing
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: has happened in the last 10 days. I think Biden
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: has done a lot in the last 10 days. I
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: just wasn't aware of it. So I think we're getting
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: to a point where we can move pretty well. We're
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: not where we need to be yet, but we're getting
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: pretty close. And I just read those, especially Tester's quote,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: because I think as you're reading the coverage of this
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: fight and these negotiations over the next few weeks, just
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: keep in mind that the incentive for reporters is to
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: highlight as much conflict as possible. Um, and so it
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: is natural to be triggered by a lot of these
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: pieces and headlines that make it seem like everything is
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: falling apart because that's how reporters want to write the
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: story because more conflict gets more clicks, you know? And
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: that's just, and even if they're not thinking about clicks,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that's just their natural tendency to gravitate towards the conflict.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: That's not an interesting story to say, yeah, a lot
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: of progress was made behind the scenes today. The end, right?
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: They're going to highlight all of the differences and conflicts,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: but you should know that you know, as Tester thought,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: like he's a member of Congress. He didn't think a
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: lot of progress was being made. And sure enough, behind
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: the scenes, a whole bunch of progress was being made.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: So there is a lot probably happening that we are
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: not aware of that could be positive.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: And this is one of the incredibly hard parts about
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: whenever a White House and a president is involved in
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: trying to pass a difficult piece of legislation, particularly when
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: you are passing that piece of legislation through entirely through
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: your own party on a party line vote is there
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: is a unsolvable incongruity between legislating and messaging. Legislating is
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: often done in quiet. It's also done having to highlight
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: some of the dumbest things, to associate yourself with Congress,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: which is incredibly unpopular for history.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Three decades running.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Forever, it's been incredibly unpopular. And hanging out with unpopular
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: people tends to make you And so Biden's been doing
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: all this work and he couldn't talk about it because
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: if he did talk about it, it would decrease his
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: chance of passing the bill. And ultimately, when you are–
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: he's playing the long game here, which is a– he
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: can either score some short-term political points or messaging points
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: now and put the ultimate goal of passing the bill
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: at risk or he can take some water on in
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: turbulent seas and hopefully get to port. I'm going to
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: do a lot of transportation metaphors this week. But you
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: get what I'm saying.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: How much detail do we know right now about what's
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: still in the bill and what might have fallen out?
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Well, we'll talk about this with Andy, but the vaguest
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: part thus far is the climate provisions. It seems that we,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: other than knowing that Joe Manchin has an opposition to
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: the clean energy standard, we don't know what else they're
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: going to do, what else they can agree on, what
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: other things he's opposed to, what other things other people
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: may be opposed to are. We know that.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And it's interesting on that, on the climate thing. So
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: you're right, we don't know. And yet what we are
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: hearing is, one, the White House keeps saying it remains
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the biggest part of the bill. So the most, whatever,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: however much money they're going to spend on this, the
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: most money is being spent on climate in the bill still,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: even after the mansion killing the clean electricity performance program.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And we also know, a bunch of progressives and moderates,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: because this is an issue that unites just about every
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Democrat in Congress, except for basically just Joe Manchin. Kyrsten
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Sinema is on board with the climate stuff too. We
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: know from them that they're like, well, we're not going
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: to support a bill that doesn't still meet President Biden's
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: goal of reducing emissions 50% by 2030. And so somehow
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: everyone still believes, and we're going to talk about this
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: with Amy, that they're going to find a mix of
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: policy that could go in this economic plan that passes
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Congress and executive actions that still gets to Biden's goal
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: of reducing emissions 50% by 2030, which he really wants
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: and needs ahead of Scotland.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: And everyone has an incentive because they live on the
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: planet to get there and politically to ensure that they
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: believe that that is what is going to happen, right?
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: So some of what we know in and out is...
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about– we'll put aside the revenue or
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: the pay-fors or how we're going to pay for this
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: bill for one second. What it seems like is in
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: the debate between do a few things permanently or a
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: few things fully funded, they're leading to doing as many
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: things as possible over a shorter time horizon. For example,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: the child tax credit, instead of being made permanent or
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: for five years or ten years, could be just for
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: two years and have it come up for expiration right
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: before the presidential election. We know that instead of– permanently
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: funding the Affordable Care Act. It looks like it's going
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: to be a three-year funding, most likely. And all of
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: these numbers depend on, you can only spend as much
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: as you can raise. And we haven't figured out what
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: tax increases there are going to be. We haven't figured
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: out yet whether, if any version of Medicare negotiating prescription
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: drug prices will be in there, which is one of
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: the biggest raisers because it actually makes money because the
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: government saves so much money on prescription drug costs. So
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: everything is very fluid. We know that he's prioritizing childcare
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: and early childhood over higher education in the funding. We
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: know that Medicare expansion is still on the table, although
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: it may take a different form and not be as
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: robust as Bernie Sanders and some of the progressives have wanted.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: One example being discussed is a debit card for Medicare
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: recipients for dental. It gives them a certain amount of
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: money to spend on dental as opposed to just changing
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: the benefit program to cover dental just as a regular
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: benefit in the plan. So there's a lot of moving pieces,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: but it seems like we're trying to get as much
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: of Biden's agenda in either a less generous form, and
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I hate to use the term generous, but less generous
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: form over a shorter time horizon than was originally planned.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: This is all very hard to do because you're cutting
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: the funding total from 60% in some cases, depending on
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: the math.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like the only things that are completely
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: out of the bill are the clean energy performance program
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: that Manchin killed and free two years of community college
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: and that everything else is reduced. So but in the bill,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: still universal preschool still on the bill, which would be
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: hugely transformative paid family leave. But again, there they're talking
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: about now four weeks of paid family leave instead of
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: 12 weeks. You mentioned that another year or two of
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: the child tax credit, some kind of expanded Medicare benefits
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: for seniors. Expanded Medicaid is still in there. lower Obamacare premiums,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: but as you said, funded for three years. And then
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: a couple hundred billion each for home health care, child care,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: affordable housing are all still reportedly in the bill. And
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: the big question marks are prescription drugs, as you mentioned,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: and also immigration, which is interesting because, you know, Pramila
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Jayapal has been saying there were five important priorities for progressives.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And as of yesterday, she said, I'm happy to report
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that all still all of them are still in the bill.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: you know, reduced funding, but they're all still in there.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: And immigration is one of those. And so people seem
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: to think that there's still going to be something done
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: on immigration. And yet, I don't quite know how that's
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: going to happen if the parliamentarian has ruled out two
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: immigration proposals already. But people still seem hopeful on immigration.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very curious to get some details on what
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: that would be. Is it funding for some programs that
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: could make our immigration system more humane? Is it, you know,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: something around dreamers. A lot of the things that are
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: really incredibly important we need to do have been nixed
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: by the parliamentarian. I don't know if there's a chance
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: to rewrite them and go back at it. So I'm very,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: very curious to hear and see where that goes.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: There were multiple reports yesterday that Sinema has said she
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: won't support any increases in the individual or corporate tax rates.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: How do Democrats pay for the bill without raising tax rates?
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Great question, John. it gets really hard, really fast. A
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: couple of things that are on the table reportedly, and
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: this is another one where the reporting is all over
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: the map about what cinema is for and what she's
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: against and how hard the line is drawn in various places.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So take everything with a grain of salt. You can
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: get new information at any moment here, but some of
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: the things that are being talked about are a chain,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: some esoteric changes in how capital gains are calculated. It's
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: something called mark to market. I would, not even bother
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: to try to explain how that works. Some taxes on billionaires,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: a billionaire that there are some other raisers.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: We might get a wealth tax. We might get a
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: wealth tax in here. Elizabeth Warren, a version of Elizabeth
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Warren's wealth tax is seriously being discussed. It was some, uh,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Ron Wyden in the Senate was calling it in, um,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: a billionaire's income tax, but it would be some kind
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: of tax on billionaire's assets. Uh, that looks like a,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: a more moderate version of Warren's wealth tax.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I'm very, uh, skeptical that this is something Kyrsten Sinema
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: is going to sign off on, but who knows? We'll see.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Who knows?
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Democrats are also likely to, and I 100% endorse this,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: adopt the dynamic scoring plan that Republicans used on their
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: tax cut, which is a way where you factor in
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: predicted economic growth and therefore additional tax revenues to make
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the bill paid for, something we hammered Republicans for, and
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: they did without any fear of political consequences. And so
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: this is what we have to do to save the planet.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: That is a norm I am okay running over.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're also talking about instead of an increase in
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: the corporate tax rate, you know, Biden's been talking a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: lot and Democrats have for years about how there are
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: many multinational corporations that pay zero dollars in taxes because
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: they fucking take all these deductions. And so you have
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: these like multi-billion dollar companies and then they don't pay
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: anything in taxes. So there would be a minimum corporate
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: tax of 15%. so that no corporation could get away
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: with paying $ 0 in taxes. Of course, it's a great idea.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: That would be great to do it. Also thinking about
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: a tax on corporate stock buybacks, where corporations just buy
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: back their stocks to help increase the value of their
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: stock price, which is also bullshit. So look, there's a
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: lot of good ideas out there about how to pay
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: for this that would still hit the very richest Americans.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: But You don't raise the individual income tax rate or
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: the corporate tax rate. When I say raise, I mean
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: just restore them to what they were before the Trump
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: tax cuts. A, you're leaving a lot of money on
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: the table. B, it's fucking politically stupid because there's few
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: ideas more popular than raising taxes on the 1% in
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: big corporations, except for, I don't know, letting Medicare negotiate
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: for cheaper prescription drug prices, which is also becoming a
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: problem thanks to fucking Kyrsten Sinema. So it's really disappointing,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: the tax stuff. I'm happy that they're going to be
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: able to pay for the bill because a lot of
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: the investments in the bill are critically important and would
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: change a lot of people's lives. But in terms of
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: doing something serious about economic inequality in this country, you
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: can all thank Kyrsten Sinema and remember that in 2024
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: when she tries to maybe run for office again.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, she alone, Joe Manchin, 100% on board with
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: restoring the corporate tax rate to what it was when
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump was president. Kyrsten Sinema alone is standing in
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the way of a substantively correct, morally important, politically potent
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: issue and making everything harder for everyone. And it is
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: so infuriating because it's based on nothing. It is nothing.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: There is– you know, we– we did a whole thing
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: on the show a month ago or so about centrists
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: versus moderates. I actually think that centrist is now an
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: incorrect way to describe Kyrsten Sinema. Because centrism is a
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: political strategy, one that we think is outdated and incorrect,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: but it's a political strategy. It's the idea that if
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I act a certain way, I will get elected. That
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: is not what she is doing. I think the way
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: to describe Kyrsten Sinema is, I was so struck by this,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: which is a few weeks ago, Howard Bryant, who's the
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: sports reporter, quoted someone in the NBA describing Kyrie Irving,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: the NBA star who won't get the vaccine but is
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: an anti-vaccine. He also is unwilling to admit that Earth
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: is round. Called Kyrie Irving a contrarian without a cause.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: And I think that is the perfect way to describe
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Kyrsten Sinema. Because you know what? Kyrsten Sinema voted against
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump's tax cuts in 2018. She put out a
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: statement decrying them for being a giveaway to the rich
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and corporations and bad for Arizona families. And then in 2018,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: she voted to make the individual rates at the lower
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Trump rate permanent. And now she is opposing returning the
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: corporate rate to where she thought it should have been
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: two years ago or four years ago or whatever it is.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: It makes no sense. It's illogical. There is no policy
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: to it. There's no principle to it. It flies in
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: the face of good politics. It is truly baffling. And
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: it is going to cost the party dearly. It's going
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: to hurt what we can fund. It's going to hurt
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: our ability to win elections. It's only going to hopefully
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: hurt her ability to win another election. And it's just–
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: It is wild. Like Manchin, I can understand. I hate it.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: I disagree with it. Some of his policies are dumb
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: and cruel and self-defeating, but I can kind of put
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: myself in issues and understand why he does that. Kirsten
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Sinema is just like, she wakes up every day, throws
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: a dart at a board just to see who she
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: can annoy that day.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: And maybe her plan in 2024 is to just, I
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: don't know, become a lobbyist and ride off into the sunset, which,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: you know, that's possible. But if she wants to run
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: for office again, let me tell you, I'll be, I'll
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: be the, I'll be first in line contributing to that
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: primary opponent. I just, you know, someone, someone on Twitter
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: asked me this morning, like, cause I was asking about
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: the tax revenue stuff. And it's like, how are you
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: not expressing more rage about Kirsten cinema? And I was like, look,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know that it's really productive to express a
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: lot of rage right now. I will be trying my
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: hardest to get even when 2024 rolls around and we
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: find a primary opponent for him. Just that's what I'm
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: going to do. You know, like nothing else I can
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: do now. except to scream about it into a microphone,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: which doesn't really seem to be helping.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, it helps me. It's cathartic for me personally.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cathartic.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: But it's not moving the ball forward for anyone else.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: No, she's not listening. All right, let's allow ourselves to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: dream for a second and pretend this thing gets passed.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's average approval rating is dog shit right now.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: It is 43%. Huge majorities of voters are pessimistic about
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the economy and the direction of the country. There will
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: be plenty of Democrats disappointed that a lot of important
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: proposals got cut. There will be independents and Republicans who
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: think the price tag is too high. And then there
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: will be plenty of people, probably most people, who have
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: no fucking idea what's in the bill. What are the
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: challenges of selling this thing and how should Biden and
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Democrats go about it?
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: The problems of selling this or the challenges of selling
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: this are immense. And I would just note, what is
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: worse than dog shit?
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Well, because Donald Trump's approval ratings were worse than Joe
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Biden's at this point. So I just want to know
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: where we are on the shit.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: They were worse than this. And then he came within
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: like 40,000 votes of winning. So yeah, that's something to
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: think about.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: That's right. Don't despair, people. We too could be one
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: overly compliant secretary of state away from getting back into
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the White House.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Look, this is incredibly hard. Like we said this before,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: no one would ever do your climate agenda, your healthcare agenda,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: your jobs agenda, your tax reform agenda, all on the
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: same bill. Like that makes no sense.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: By the way, Dan, I saw some, a bunch of
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: reporters and other people have been saying this this week, like,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: why did Democrats choose to do this all in one bill?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Why did Democrats choose to do? I'm like, are you,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: how fucking dumb are you? Like, Democrats didn't choose to
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: do this all in one bill. We had no choice.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: The only way you could pass all this was through
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: reconciliation because it requires 51 votes and doesn't require getting
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: rid of the filibuster, which Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: won't let us to do. It was do it all
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: in one bill or do nothing. That was the choice.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: It's like spend five minutes learning something.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Or just remember something from two months ago. Two months ago.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: You don't have to tweet something you don't know anything about.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Unless it's about sports, then feel free. So I think
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the choice that Biden, the White House, members of Congress,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the larger democratic political apparatus is going to have to
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: make is in a world of large but finite resources,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: how much are we spent telling people what we have done?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: And how much do we spend telling people what Republicans
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: might do? or will do if they get back into power.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And it's a big choice because there's a lot of
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: evidence in recent years, and particularly in this year in particular,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: that voters are voting for reasons that are very disconnected
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: from what may be their individual economic self-interest. As we've
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: said before, Joe Biden mailed a check to like 100
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: million people, and his approval rating did not go up.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: That certainly says something about Joe Biden or checks or
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: anything like that. The checks are incredibly popular. It just
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: said about where people are entrenched in politics. And, like,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: that is sort of how I feel. I think the
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: huge– we have to get this bill done. It is
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the right thing to do for the world. It is
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: a way to go to our voters and our volunteers
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: and our donors and say, see, it was worth it.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I think that's incredibly important. You have to sell it
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: to them. But the best of– the opportunity that comes
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: from passing this bill is that we can focus on
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the fucking Republicans again because they are being pushed off
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: the stage. They are not being paid attention to. They
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: are just undermining elections, pushing anti-vaccine conspiracy theories, and they're
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: all doing it. And no one's noticing because for, I think,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: what are not necessarily incorrect reasons, the bulk of political
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: coverage is on whether Democrats can pass Joe Biden's agenda.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: And when that is done, we can hopefully move the
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: spotlight back to them.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I would also say that the out party wants to
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: make elections about a referendum on the party in power, right?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: So Republicans want to make the midterm a referendum on
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's performance in office. They're already doing it, right?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: if you're the party in power, you want to turn
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: it into a choice. We've talked about this before. And
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: so I do think talking about the Republicans have done
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: and will do, and then contrasting it with what you
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: have done and will do is also an important part
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: of the equation. So for example, say they, they get
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: the child tax credit into the bill and they extend
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: it for a couple of years. Now you can run
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: saying to people, okay, you put Republicans in power. Taxes
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: are going to go up on a bunch of families
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: with children because they don't want to extend the child
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: tax credit. We gave it to you. They want to
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: take it away and they want to raise your taxes.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: That's just one example out of many policies in the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: bill where you can do this once you pass it.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: But I think you're right. What's been missing from the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: equation over the last several months is you rarely hear
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: any Democratic official talking about Republicans much because Republicans have
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: already decided that they're going to vote against the bill.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: So there's nothing much to say about them. And it's
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: all about, you know, Joe Biden and most of the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Democratic Party against Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. And if
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: that's all you see in the headlines and that's all
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: you read about and nothing's getting done in Congress, you're
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: going to blame the party that's controlling Congress in Washington.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: It's just natural. Like, I can't help but remember that
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress were at their lowest
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: approval when they were trying to repeal the Affordable Care
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Act and pass their tax cut. They failed at repealing
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: the Affordable Care Act, thank God, and they succeeded at
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: passing the tax cut. But the process of trying to
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: do both of those things when Republicans were in charge
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: and Donald Trump was in the White House made them
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: more unpopular citizens. than any other time over those last
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: four years. And Donald Trump did a lot of unpopular shit,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: in our view, but it was the mess in Congress
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that made them the most unpopular. One more thing here
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: is we got a.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Our friends at Data for Progress sent us a poll
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that they just did last week. It was a poll
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in the field from the 15th to the 17th. They
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: polled 1,325 voters about the Build Back Better plan. So,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: as usual, when they read a description... two voters about
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: the plan that included expanded Medicare benefits, home and elder care,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: child care, and clean energy jobs is how they phrased it.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: 65% of voters supported it, only 28% oppose it. Then
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: they asked whether you'd approve of Biden's job performance if
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: the economic plan passed. And they asked that question and
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: his approval jumped from 46% approve, 51% disapprove, which was
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the approval rating at the beginning of the poll. And
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: then if the plan passed after hearing about the plan,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: his approval jumped to 58% support, 37% disapprove. What do
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: you think about that? Because I find it hard to
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: believe that any president in this era of polarization could
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: ever get a 58% approval rating. But that does suggest
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: that maybe doing popular stuff and passing a bill like
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: this could help Joe Biden.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think it absolutely will help Joe Biden's approval rating.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: I do not dispute that. I agree with you that
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: 58 seems higher than is reasonable to expect, but what
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: do I know? But I think the way to think
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: about this is, where do we want Joe Biden's approval
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: rating to be? We want it to be right around
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: his win number in 2020, which is 51%. So if
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: you were at 43, there is 8% or so of
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: people who voted for you for president who are over
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump, who are not happy with something that you
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: were doing right now, or they're holding you accountable for
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: general malaise in the world, in the economy, in the pandemic,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: whatever else, that 8% is the easiest to get back.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: It's not easy, don't get me wrong, but it's certainly
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: easier than persuading somebody who voted for Donald Trump to
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: support you. And so having success will help certainly bring
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Democrats home and bring back some of the Democratic-leaning independents
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: back into the fold. You then have to sustain that
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: success over time and build on it. And keep a
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: narrative of success. I really think because of the oversimplified
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: nature of our hyperactive Facebook-driven media environment, people can only
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: sort of– there is no nuance available in political narratives.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: You're either winning or you're losing. You're either strong or
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: you're weak. And ever since August, the narrative has been
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: is that Biden is losing. Whatever it is, he's not
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: doing well, his poll numbers are down, he can't get
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: his agenda done. And if he passes this, that's a
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: circuit breaker on that narrowest opportunity to set a new narrative,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: which is that he is succeeding. He passed this huge agenda.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: It will be incumbent upon everyone involved in passing it
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: and people like ourselves to explain to the world why
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: that was important and why 1.9 trillion or 1.5 trillion,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: whatever it is, is a historic achievement that should be
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: judged on its own, not in comparison to 3.5 trillion
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: or whatever else was potentially out there. But yes, it
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: should help increase his approval rating. Will it necessarily? We
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: don't know. But succeeding is better than failing. And right now,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the narrative is failure. I think it's an unfair narrative.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: It discounts a lot of really positive things happening. But
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: that is what you open Twitter, you open Facebook, you
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: watch cable news. That is what you're hearing every day.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: And just to highlight the magnitude of the challenge that
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: the Biden administration faces, even if they pass it in
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: selling it, in the Data for Progress poll, 35% of
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: voters said they have a general understanding of what's in
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the bill before the description of the bill was read
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: to them. Only 35% said they had a general understanding.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Only 7% said they know specifics of what's in the bill. Seven.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And 58% said that they know nothing or only a
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: little about the bill. Then Data for Progress did an
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: open-ended question, which are always fascinating because it's more like
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: a focus group and you can just let people say,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: you know, what's on their mind. And they asked, what
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: have you heard about the bill? Top words, infrastructure, roads
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and bridges, taxes. So it's like good for the good
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: for the infrastructure stuff. But I think we could talk
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: about this forever. But this goes back to the whole
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: like child care is infrastructure and prescription drugs or infrastructure,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: which I never understood at the time and still don't
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: understand why we tried to define everything as a fucking
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: word that no one really knows what it is anyway.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: It boggles my mind. That we didn't just have an
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: infrastructure bill and then call everything else a jobs plan
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: or an economic plan. But whatever. So that was that
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: was what those are the words that came up most
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: in the open ended response. And then there were some
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: I'll give you some some good comments and some bad
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: comments about the bill from voters. Some good comments. This
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: person has to have been a plant, even though it
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: was a 45. It was a 45 year old Republican
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: woman who said this. I think the bill is geared
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: towards getting our country back on a better foundation. Like what?
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. And then someone else said the build back
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: better agenda is an ambitious plan to create jobs, cut
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: taxes and lower costs for working families. all paid for
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: by making the tax code fairer, male Democrat 45. Like,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: was that Ron Klain?
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: That was.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Was that John Anzalone, Biden's pollster?
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: I think it's time to admit that I, at least
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: for another couple of months, am a male Democrat who's
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: age 45. So I can admit that I was polled there.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: You were polled. And then some of the bad ones
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: were $ 3. 5 trillion wishlist of spending, pork-laden bill for blue states,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: $ 3 trillion that's going to inflict debt, And then a
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: couple other interesting ones. Someone said, all I know is
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: that two senators are holding it up. That's all I've heard,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: which tells you a lot. And then someone else said,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I've heard a few of the components, but have heard
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: more about the dissent and getting it passed. And then
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: someone else just said, everyone's arguing, which there you go.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I don't blame people for having that reaction. That's all
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: you see in the press.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Can I leap to the defense of the Biden communications
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: team for a second?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Please. Was I attacking them?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no. But there's a lot
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: of critique of the messaging of this. And people always
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: point to this poll number that's like, no one can
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: name specifics in the bill. Do you know who can't
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: name specifics in the bill? Anyone, because we haven't had any.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: You and I are professional political observers. We host a podcast.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: We read every single thing that's written. We know people
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: work in the Biden White House. We know people work
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: in Congress. And we're here just trying to read between
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: the lines and political stories about what might be in
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: the bill. Members of Congress could not say they know
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: what's in the bill. Anyone who says they know what's
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: in their bill is actually mistaken. Like that has been
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: the problem here is this is not a messaging failure.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: It's a legislating failure because we haven't had a bill
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: with specifics to sell this entire time. Like I totally
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: agree with you.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Even the White House, right? Like if, you know, because
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: we've made the argument before that Joe Biden should be
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: on the road selling the shit out of this bill. Well,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: what if Joe Biden for a month had been like
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: at every single stop Two years of community college, two
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: free years of community college, said it over and over
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: and over again, and then it got dropped from the bill,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: which it is. Right. So it's hard to sell something.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, fucking Jell-O.
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Anyway, but I think the important thing here is, look,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: if they pass this thing, you're right. It is a
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: very black and white narrative. It's winning or losing. And
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: if they're winning because they passed it, then they have
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: an opportunity and they have probably a narrow window to
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: really talk about and to have every single Democrat elected
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: into office and every single person in the progressive media
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: universe talking over and over again about what actually got passed,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: because a lot of the headlines will be about what
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: didn't make it into the bill. And then Republicans will
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: start criticizing it. And so it will be our job
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, what policies are actually in
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: the bill that are going to change people's lives. That
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we shouldn't be disappointed about what didn't
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: get in there. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize what
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: didn't get in there. But it is important for the
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: American people to know what's going to happen now that
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: this bill passed, because for most of them, it's going
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: to be their lives are improved in a significant way.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: All right. When we come back, we will talk to
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Amy Westervelt from the ClimatePod hot take about climate negotiations
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: in Joe Biden's economic plan. With climate negotiators from nearly
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: every country gathering in Scotland in less than two weeks
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: to negotiate a new deal to cut global emissions, the
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: White House continues to say that President Biden stands by
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: his promise to cut U.S. emissions 50 percent by 2030
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: and and that clean energy investments will still be the
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: biggest part of his economic plan, despite the fact that
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Joe Manchin has killed his clean energy performance program. Here
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: to help us sort through this debate and talk through
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: some potential solutions is Amy Westervelt, an investigative journalist and
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: co-host of the excellent climate podcast, Hot Take. Amy, welcome
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: to the show.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: What was your reaction to the Friday New York Times
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: story about Manchin killing the clean electricity standard?
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Manchin, you walking lump of coal.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: No. Correct. That's right. That was the answer I was
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: looking for.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: That was my immediate reaction.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, it's disappointing, but I think that.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, honestly, what I think needs
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: to happen is that that progressives need to kind of
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: toe the line. And I know that Biden's trying to
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: get something done ahead of this deadline of, you know,
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: wanting to take something great to Glasgow. But like, I
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: don't think.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: That I don't know.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: I don't know that that they're going to get another
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: opportunity to actually get emissions reductions if they don't sort of. Yeah.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: fight to get something else in there that replaces those cuts. Uh,
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: so yeah.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about why that program
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: was so, or is so important? Yeah.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, the biggest reason that like the simplest way
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: to put it is that it was the only one
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: that actually comes with some punishment for not reducing emissions
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: and not transitioning. Um, so the way that, that SEP
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: works and it's also, I mean, unfortunately it's like it's
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: extremely wonky. They've done a terrible job messaging around, you know,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: so that's unfortunate, but, but basically it incentivizes power, power
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: plants and utility companies to transition to cleaner energy. And
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: it also penalizes them if they fall under this sort of,
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: you know, 4% per year goal, which is what, you know,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: has been, sort of modeled and calculated as what needs
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: to happen to meet the 2030 emissions reductions goals, which
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: is it's 50% of our 2005 levels by 2030. So
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: right now everyone like Joe Manchin's like, Oh, but we're
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: already doing it. We're not doing it. There's, I think
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: maybe two utilities in the country that are doing.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: It, you know?
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: So they are like they're transitioning, but it's just too slow.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: It's about half as quickly as they need to. And
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: this would both, you know, give them money to help
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: them speed up, but also have a little bit of
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: that stick. And that's the piece that I think Manchin
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: and his fellow Republicans don't like. Like, they don't like
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: they don't they don't like regulation of any kind. So, yeah.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good point about the messaging. I always
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: wondered why they didn't just say it rewards clean energy
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: and makes polluters pay. Like, yeah, sort of simple. Now
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: we're talking about incentives and carrots and sticks.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: And percentages, and it's like 4% a year. What does
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: that mean?
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Who the hell knows? Dan, some reporters have said that
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't be surprised that Manchin killed this because he's
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: been telling us he's against it for months. Others have
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: reported that Manchin was actually negotiating over this plan before
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: he finally decided to kill it. Were you surprised? What
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: do you think happened?
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: I was surprised. Should I have been? Probably not. It's
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: probably my own fault for getting my hope up about it.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, Manchin is a truly inscrutable human being. He
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: says things that could be taken to mean anything that
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: is very conflicting. There's clearly a lot of people in
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: his orbit or reportedly in his orbit who are telling
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: reporters various things. He has expressed some vague support for
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: the idea in previous interviews. Then there's the New York
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Times report that says he's against it. Then there are
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: other reports that say that he was negotiating on it
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: and wanted to include natural gas in it, which seemed
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: like an unfortunate but compromise, like nothing that any of
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: us want, but it seemed like it suggested he was
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: trying to get to a place that was comfortable for
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: him or at least allowed him to go back to
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: his friends in the fossil fuel industry and say, look,
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I delivered this for you. But we are in this
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: place where Joe Manchin, where we have– it's one of
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: those decisions where There probably wasn't an alternative, but putting
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: the senator from the coal state that Donald Trump won
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: by 40 points in charge of the Energy Committee was
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: maybe not the best move in this situation. But even
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: if he was in the Energy Committee, he's still the
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: 50th vote who is standing in the way of progress.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: And I agree with Amy that this is, I truly believe,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: our last best chance to do something significant. Because if
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: you just look at the political... map going forward, what
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: the stakes in this election are, is it could be
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: if we lose the Senate either in 2022 or 2024,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: we may not get it back for decades. And so
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: whether we win the White House, whether we keep the House,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: we are not going to be in a position to
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: do anything on climate. So we have to do everything
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: we possibly can. It may not be everything we want
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: to do. We have to do everything we can right
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: here and now. Yeah.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: So Amy, the White House is still saying that they
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: will meet their emissions goals under the Paris Agreement by
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: a mix of other climate policies that can pass Congress
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: and executive actions. Do you think that's possible?
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: I think it's possible. I have heard from various folks
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: that there's a lot of talk about actually doing a
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: standalone SEP that people think they can get Murkowski and
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: or Collins and or both to back and not need Manchin.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I know why that was not the
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: plan for the overall bill, except that no Republican wants
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: to vote for a giant Democratic spending package, period. So
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: there is some talk that, okay, well, we could have
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: a separate policy that's just looking at.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Doing SAP on its own.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: There's some talk of, there are several executive actions that
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: Biden could take. He could declare an emergency and, you know,
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: put an end to the fossil fuel exports, for one,
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: which is something that people have been talking about for
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: a while. He could suspend leasing and drilling on federal lands.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: He could, you know, I mean, the EPA could use
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: all of the authority that it actually already has, even
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: without any kind of expansion of, you know, of policy
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: there too. So there are some things, but I don't know,
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: like they're going to, they have to come up with
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: some kind of policy measure that requires emissions reductions. And
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: I haven't seen anything that's been proposed that, that isn't like, oh,
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: well we can do, you know, set part two, you know,
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: separately maybe. Or I saw today some, something about trying
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: to convince Joe Manchin that to do it with a
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: West Virginia cutout. Like everyone else will do SEP and
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: West Virginia can do its own thing.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I'm like, really? Okay.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure. I guess, I mean, I guess that would
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: be better than nothing, but I can't imagine how that
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: would work. So yeah.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Well, even if they did a standalone clean energy standard,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: you'd probably, you'd need more than Murkowski and Collins, right?
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Because you wouldn't be able, you already used your reconciliation package,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: so you'd have to go back to a regular order
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and get 60 votes.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: That's right. So they're like, maybe Romney, maybe this person.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, you still have- Oh God, now we're
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: counting to 10.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: I know. I'm like, now you still have Sinema, you
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: still have Manchin, like, you know.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Gotta count to 11.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I do think there's promise in the
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: executive action around sort of the EPA using their authority
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: to regulate power plants, but that runs into Supreme Court problems, right?
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: Well, only if you expand the standard. Like the way,
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, you could go with what already exists, right?
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: And instead of allowing the states to dick around and
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: do whatever they want, like let the EPA actually regulate
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: it the way that they actually already have authority to do.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: But that would also require- properly funding and staffing the EPA. So,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: you know, there's, there's that whole component too. And say the,
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: the thing that I haven't heard discussed much at all,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: which I'm worried about is that actually, I don't think
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: mansion's done getting rid of climate measures in this bill. Um,
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: I don't think he likes the methane fee at all,
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: for example, you know, and that's like, that's another huge
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: component of this. Um, so I'm also, I'm concerned that like,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: They don't seem to really have a plan to replace
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: this one third of emissions that this was going to deliver.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: And that also, I don't think that he's done whittling
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: away at the climate policy in this bill.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Dan, what do you think the political stakes are? and
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: geopolitical stakes are for Biden in terms of this deal
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: and the summit coming up? Like, how hard would you
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: be pushing to get something big done?
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, we obviously as a political podcast, we
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: talk about politics. I think climate is good politics in
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: a whole host of ways. the politics are obviously so
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: much less important than actually saving the planet, right? And
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: so it almost feels dumb to be trying to figure
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: out like what's the best way– like the focus should
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: be what's the way to message it to get it
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: done and then once we get it done, we can
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: figure out how to go sell it to people so
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: that we get political credit, republicans get political– whatever that is.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: But ultimately, it's like whatever we can get done that
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: comes as close as humanly possible to meeting the task
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: we need to make. But I think– but because you
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: brought up politics and really I've just exhausted my knowledge
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: of climate policy and I have to pivot to politics immediately.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: I'll start with the geopolitics. It's obviously deeply embarrassing for
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: the United States that as one of the world's largest admitters,
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's party is in control of the entire government
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: and he can't do even a fraction of what he
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: wants to do because one member of his own party
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: is in the way. Like that just– Like the Chinese
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: are laughing at that, right? They're like, come on now.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: And so it limits our authority. It limits our ability
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: to go to these other countries and pressure them to
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: do more. We just have little authority and credibility. And
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: it undermines some of the credibility we gained back after
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Trump left. It was obviously incredibly embarrassing when Trump pulled
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: out of Paris and then became one of the few
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: countries in the world who was actually putting in place
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: policies to make the climate worse, not better, or at
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: least better. And then so we finally get a president
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: who acknowledges that climate change is real, gets in there,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: has a plan, he controls all of government and can't
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: get a significant piece of agenda done. That's not awesome. Politically,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I think the thing I worry most about failing to
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: do something that people can truly believe is real here
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: or is as good as we can possibly hope for is,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: you know, there were a lot of studies after the
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: 2020 election about how surge in youth voters helped push
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Biden over the top, particularly in Arizona, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: And in all of those surveys, climate was the number
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: one issue behind COVID for almost all of these voters.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: And so if you say to these voters, you worked
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: your tail off, you got the House, the Senate, and
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: the presidency, and still we barely got anything done. That
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: is a dangerous message about how engaging in politics doesn't
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: matter on the most important issue. And so politically, whether
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: it's for 2022, 2024, the long-term health of the party,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: it's We have to deliver here because we have to
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: show people in tangible ways that their vote mattered on
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: their most important issue or they will tune out. And
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: for the voters most likely to tune out after this election,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: this is their most important issue.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: I'm already hearing that from from like Gen Z climate kids.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: They're just like, really?
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: You told us that if we got behind Biden, he
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: would like deliver on climate and we feel like we
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: were sold a bill of goods. They're already feeling like that.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: So if this doesn't get fixed, like they're losing, they're
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: going to lose that coalition of people. And that's really scary. Yeah.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And to that point, Amy, it's, you know, the Biden
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: administration can say, well, it's Joe Manchin's fault. It's not
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: our fault. Look, we proposed these significant reductions in line
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: with Paris. But that message doesn't translate well and it
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: can kind of get lost along the way, which is
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons I think if you're the Biden administration,
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: you do everything humanly possible to not only get the
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: most ambitious climate proposals you can in this bill, but
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: then do everything possible via executive action and show up
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: in Scotland with something significant. I mean, I think the
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: point about China is interesting, Dan, too, because China's overall
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: argument is that democracy is messy and doesn't get shit
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: done and that it's an antiquated form of government. And
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: if they show up in Scotland with a bunch of
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: policies to reduce their emissions and the United States doesn't,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: that helps make their argument. And Joe Biden has been
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: making that argument, apparently, to a lot of Democratic members
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: of Congress, I heard, to some effect, which I think
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: is a pretty good argument for some of them who
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: may not be as excited about some of this stuff
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: like Joe Manchin, because otherwise it's an argument that China's
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: kicking our ass. Amy, I know you've criticized the media's
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: failure to cover the climate crisis with the seriousness and
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: urgency it deserves. What does better coverage look like to you?
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: I think, I mean, well, I think the best example
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: of how not to do it this week was Politico
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: framing this as, you know, Mansion wins and environmentalists lose
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: on like that type of coverage. The sort of like
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: points on the board political coverage of climate policy is really,
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: really problematic and really needs to change. It's not that
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: it like climate is not a pet project of environmentalists.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: It's not, you know, environmentalists are not some like weird
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: special interest group. Climate policy is something that will impact
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: absolutely every person. on the planet and to frame it
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: that way is really irresponsible, I think. So yeah, not
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: doing that anymore would be great.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: It was just that gets, you know, we we rate
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: bad takes here with one to four politicos and four
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: politicos is a full playbook. And of course, that what
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: you just mentioned was in playbook. Winners and losers, losers, environmentalists,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: like also losers, the planet, humanity, humanity, the human race loser. Yeah, that's.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: That was pretty ridiculous. Dan, what do you think? What
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: do you think about better climate coverage?
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I would encourage everyone to read Amy's article in
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: The Nation about this, which I was also angered by
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: that political thing. So I started to write a message
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: box about this exact topic. And then I read Amy's
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: article and was like, instead, I'm just going to send
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: everyone Amy's article because that's much better than I'm going
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to do. But here's some of the ways I like
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: to think about climate change coverage is whenever I read
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: a political take on climate change coverage, I remove the
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: word climate change and replace it with gravity and see
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: if it still makes sense, right? It's like they are
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: equally real. And imagine if we were in a situation
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: where we were both sides in gravity, right? Democrats say
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: they want to walk down the steps. Republicans suggest the
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: window's an option. Like it's just, it's not. It's like
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: that is ultimately the problem is that it's become, it's like,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: as Amy points out in a really great article, is
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: it goes in cycles, right? And it's different. Different reporters,
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: different moments in time. But ultimately, it's a very real thing.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: We should be covered like a hurricane. A encroaching wildfire
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: is a real thing that is happening. And there isn't
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: a dispute about what's happening. You have to accept it.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: And you have a stake in it as a reporter, right?
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: You live on this planet, too, unless you have. Unless
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: the folks at Axel Springer have a compound on Mars
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: where they can send the Politico reporters, I don't know.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: But it's a real thing. And I think that it
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: is terrible and it has been incredibly damaging to the debate,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: to the planet, because Republicans have– the right has won
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: this debate. In 2006, the climate change bill was– there
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: was a general agreement between both parties that climate change
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: was real. The climate change bill, the cap and trade
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: bill at the time, was McCain-Kennedy. John McCain supported climate change.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: When Mitt Romney was governor of Massachusetts, he supported climate.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: He believed climate change was real. They acknowledge it. There
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: were disputes about how to deal with it, but his
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: acknowledgement was real. When John McCain ran for president in 2008,
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: he had to disavow his belief in climate change. When
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Mitt Romney ran for president in 2012, he had to
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: disavow his belief in climate change. And we're heading in
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: the wrong direction at the worst time because we're allowing
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: this to be a debate when it's not.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's not we're allowing, we're continuing to allow
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: it to be politicized and even more politicized when it's like,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: it's not, you know, like Mary Hegler and I wrote
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: in this nation story, like it's not scientists saying this,
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: it's science saying it. And like the other thing, I mean,
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: there's the whole science piece, but then I don't think
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: we've even started to tackle the, the way that the
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: fossil fuel industry has totally controlled the messaging on economy
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: versus environment that is so insidious in all of these conversations.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, the, the economy depends on the
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: environment too, guys. Like the economy, economic growth depends on
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: humans continuing to breathe. So like the idea that like,
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: this is some sort of, you know, either or scenario
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: or that what environmentalists want is you know, pristine nature.
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: This story keeps getting kind of pushed to that, like,
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: we're all just trying to save trees and they're trying
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: to save jobs. That is a totally false dichotomy. It's
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: not what's going on. And I really wish that that
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: media would stop kind of perpetuating that idea.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Well, as we're talking about this on Thursday, this morning,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I believe the Defense Department released a report you know,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: talking about how climate change is one of the greatest
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: threats to national security, right? Because they see what's coming.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: And so it's like hard-headed military folks understand what's going on.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: This isn't just environmentalists who want pristine nature, which didn't
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: realize that that was something that you shouldn't want, but
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: you know. How silly. How silly, right. So no matter
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: what passes, it's not going to be the Green New Deal. Um,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: where do you think the climate movement should go from
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: here in terms of political activism?
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: Like, what do you say to some, uh, some of
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: those young people who, who were so disappointed and wanted
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: more and say like, well, if I worked so hard
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: in 2020 and, and we didn't get an ambitious climate proposal,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: why shouldn't I just give up? What should I do now?
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: Well, there's two things. One is, um, is, uh, like
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: you know, voting, protecting, protecting the vote actually is, uh,
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: is a big part of it, you know? Um, uh,
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: but there, there, again, I feel like people feel very stymied.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, we're seeing now with this, um, again, mansion, um,
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: and his like, you know, freedom of the vote act
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: or whatever, um, that the filibuster is a huge problem
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: and that, um, actually protecting people's right to vote is
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: a huge problem. So I do think that that is
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: a place to focus. And then I would say in
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: terms of policy and actually getting things done and moving
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: the needle on climate, local and state, you know, I mean,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: the Republicans started doing that a long time ago, right?
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: But you, I mean, you do see actually a significant
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: advancement in some state policies and even, um, and even
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: in some local fights, even in oil and gas states,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: like in Louisiana, where, you know, people organized, um, in
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: the Gulf coast to put a stop to, um, one
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: of the biggest plants that were, was proposed in cancer alley.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: And that was just grassroots organizing at the community level. People,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: you know, got together and they, um, you know, they
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: stopped what would be a huge, you know, contributor to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: climate change. So there are these, like these ways to
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: kind of go back to grassroots organizing and, and actually deliver, um, at, um,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: at that front. But, um, but I don't know, I mean, honestly, like, uh,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: it's pretty hard to feel optimistic about national policy right now.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Um, so yeah.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: You know, I wish that I had like a more
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: hopeful message for people. But right now it's hard to find.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Hopeful is hard, but at least we can be determined.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: I do think that state and local is is is
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: where the pressure should be applied. And again, and on
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: businesses to pressure on businesses.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, I do think pressure on businesses.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, you are seeing, you know, in the absence
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: of policy, you are seeing a lot of stuff happen
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: in the courts. Actually, there's quite a few cases. Cases
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: that are active right now, both in the U.S. and internationally,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: I think there's now close to 200 climate cases worldwide
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: that are really sticking it to oil companies. And they
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: will at some point get very tired of that and
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: just agree to do certain things. So that is something
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: that's happening. And then on the sort of local and
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: state front, I think the other thing that's helpful with
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: sort of community organizing is that you know, we're going
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: to need that community resilience to just get through climate
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: change too. So it's like, it's not bad to build
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: those bonds now and, you know, kind of get involved
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: with where you live.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense. Amy Westervelt, thank you so
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: much for joining us today. Everyone go check out the
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Hot Tag Podcast. It's fantastic.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: All right, one more thing before we go. President Biden
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: will take questions from voters at a CNN town hall
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: this Thursday evening, but DC reporters are once again cranky
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: that he's not taking more questions from them. Alex Thompson
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: of Politico, of course, wrote a piece this week where
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: he accused the White House of having a, quote, bunker
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: mentality since Biden has only done 10 sit-down one-on-one interviews
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: and none since Labor Day, even though he's taken many
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: questions from reporters after events. CBS's Mark Knoller noted that
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: At this point in their presidencies, Barack Obama had done
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: 131 one-on-one interviews and Donald Trump did 57. Those 16
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: of those were on Fox and God knows how many
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: were on OAN or Newsmax or fucking Dan Bongino's podcast.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: This is, of course, a crisis of democracy and a
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: threat to the First Amendment as the public has the
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: right to know what their president thinks about questions like this. Biden,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: what scandal do you have coming? How's your allergies, Mr. President?
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Can this administration guarantee.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: The holiday packages will arrive on time.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: And do you believe you'll be running against former President Trump?
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: Oh, come on.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Why do you continue to trust the Taliban, Mr.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: President?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: Did Hunter Biden commit a crime?
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Has he called Matthew McConaughey and urged him to run
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: for governor?
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: The first one is my favorite. What scandal do you
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: have coming? That's as close to what about your gaffes
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: as possible, which is, of course, my all-time favorite. What
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: do you think, Dan? What's with the bunker mentality?
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: I would note a few things about this. One, in
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: the eyes of DC reporters, the only questions that count
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: are the one that Biden takes from them, them individually,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: not just even just general questions. Two, as was pointed
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: out here, Barack Obama did a ton of interviews and
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: fewer informal Q & As with the press, like Trump
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: would do, like walking to the helicopter or before and
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: after events. And during the Obama years, One-on-one interviews did
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: not count, but informal Q & As did. Now that
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: we've gone into Biden years, the goalposts have clearly moved
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: very far because informal Q & As do not count,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: but interviews are the end-all, be-all of transparency. And I
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: would just like to note that You know, this gets
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: me very worked up. But basically what these people are
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: arguing is, look, and I think it is in president's
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: interest to do interviews and press conferences at the time
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: and place of their choosing, looking like you were in
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: a bunker, which Joe Biden is not, is not good
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: for you. You need to communicate and you have to
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: work hard to do it. And the media is one
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: important way to do it. But let us, we should
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: not pretend that even for as well-intentioned as the individual
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: reporters are in their desire to hold politicians accountable and
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: inform the public. Ultimately, what they are arguing is that
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: the representatives and employees of the Walt Disney Company, Comcast,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: AT & T, and Amazon should have more access to
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: the president.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Do you think this matters to anyone but the DC
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: press corps? Is there any political risk to not doing
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: more sit-down one-on-one interviews with a fucking nightly news anchor
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: or whatever, whoever else?
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: There's not a political risk. The public hates the press.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: They do. I mean, it's not just Republicans. It's Democrats
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: as well, although Democrats not as much as Republicans. They
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: rank right there near with Congress in terms of institutions
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: that are not trusted by the public. The danger is
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: not in whether you talk to enough reporters or you
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: do enough press conferences or sit down interviews. It is
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: whether you are getting your message out or not. And
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: the press is not the only way to get the
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: message out, but it is a way to get the
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: message out. So it makes sense that Biden is doing,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: as he's building momentum for his legislative agenda, that he's
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: doing this CNN town hall tonight, right? That's exactly what
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: I want. But those questions do not count because like
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: 80% of them will come from people, not reporters.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: Voters, not reporters. And if you've watched any of these
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: town halls with Biden or any other politician, the questions
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: that people ask- actual people who vote, are almost always
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: much more substantive and policy-oriented than the questions that reporters ask,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: which are about process or stupid shit like everything we
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: heard in that last clip. So it's like, what about
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: your scandals? What about Donald Trump? What about your allergies?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: What about Hunter Biden's laptop? I would wager that the
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: questions you'll get from people at the town hall tonight
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: will not be necessarily softball questions for Biden. Some of
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: them will probably be disappointed that certain policies fell out
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: of the package, the economic plan. Some of them will
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: hold him accountable for maybe not keeping a campaign promise yet.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Like they could be very tough questions for Joe Biden
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: tonight at the town hall, but I guarantee they will
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: be much more substantive about the policies that impact the
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: American people's lives than the bullshit that you get from
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: the DC press corps. And that is what the press
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: corps hates, by the way.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: And for the reporters who look down their nose at
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: regular people and accuse them of being insufficiently able to
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: ask horse race questions, in these town halls, they're Anderson
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: Cooper will be there tonight. There is always a reporter
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: who can follow up, right? If Biden inadvertently makes some
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: news or he contradicts himself or he says something that
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: may not be accurate, there's a babysitter for you DC reporters.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: You have your representative in the room to ask the question.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: So it's not– yeah, I can understand why reporters wouldn't
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: love it if networks just let– politicians just take questions
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: from e-voters, even voters they choose without any sort of
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: follow-up because– That's a power dynamic that greatly favors the politician.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: But these are great forums. But I think the thing
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: to understand about all of this explains why the questions
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: that– not the ridiculous ones that were in our very
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: well-edited and fun clip– is as audiences have shrunk, as
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: the media landscape has grown, political media is now– and
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: political media is targeted towards political junkies. Even the New
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: York Times, the number of people who did not make
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: their decision about Joe Biden, the Build Back Better agenda,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump, the insurrection, or any of those things. almost
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: none of them consume this media. And so the questions
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: they're asking are not for the public good, they're for
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: their audience, as they should be. These are people who
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: work for businesses who serve an audience. And so they're
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: asking questions that are interesting to the political junkies and
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: partisans who read their outlets. or watch their shows and
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: not to the broader public. And that is the dynamic.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: That is not in, that may be in their interest,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: but that's not in the White House's interest. And so
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: that's why he's doing fewer interviews in more town hall-like
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: environments for people to, where he can maybe speak to
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: a few more people or talk about more things that
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: he thinks the broader public is interested in.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: Last question related to this. Do you think Biden should
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: launch his own social media platform to compete with Donald
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: Trump's new app, Truth Social.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: Yes. And he should launch a television network, and he
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: should support progressive media, and he should do all of
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: those things.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: What do you think? You think Truth Social is going
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: to be a big thing? Have you invested in it yet?
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Have you invested in the media company? It's not just
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: a platform, by the way. It's not just a social
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: media platform, I should say. It's a whole media company
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: he's got going there.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: We are making fun of Trump because this is very clearly...
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: a get-rich scheme for donors and others to pump a
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: bunch of money, to give him tens if not hundreds
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: of millions of dollars in technically legal but definitely immoral
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: ways to influence him if he were to run for president. Again,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: that is definitely what's happening. We should not pretend like
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: this is real. It is so fake. No serious person
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: would look at a deck where Donald Trump's media platform
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: is challenging Facebook, Netflix, Disney. No one would give money
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: to that unless they were trying to buy influence with
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: someone who may be president of the United States again
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: in a few years. That is what is happening. But
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: one thing that I think Democrats really need to learn
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: from Donald Trump, and I recognize that that is a
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: very freighted sentence, but Donald Trump fully understands about the
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: importance of having a media ecosystem that communicates directly with
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: your voters.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: 100% correct. And it's not just build your own media
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: platform or Trump Plus, whatever he's calling it. But he
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: also spent a ton of time– now, it was driven
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: by insecurity and a whole bunch of just general Trump weirdness.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: But he spent a ton of time nurturing the right-wing
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: media ecosystem. He gave them traffic. He focused on them.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: He made sure that more people knew about books. And
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: Democrats have done– there are exceptions to this. Bernie did
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: a very good job in his campaign– nurturing the progressive
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: media ecosystem in the same way, to lay hands on
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: them and try to lift them up and build that
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: up as an important part of a messaging apparatus. Because
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: if we say all the time, if we rely on
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: the traditional media, we're going to speak to only a
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: tiny fraction of the voters we need to reach. And
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: so we have to build up alternatives. And Donald Trump,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: this is a ridiculous grift, but the idea behind it
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: is something that Democrats could learn a little bit from.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: And again, because Trump has been banned from Twitter- and
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: mainstream media isn't covering him as much as they used
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: to when he was president or when he ran last time,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: it can sometimes seem like, oh, what's happening with Donald
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: Trump these days? You don't hear from him much. Thank God. Great.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: We can all move on with our lives. He is
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: because the right wing media ecosystem is sort of an
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: enclosed bubble. And because it is so large and has
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: such reach and influence among Republicans, there's a whole Donald
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Trump is in constant conversation with his base. He is
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: in constant conversation with these people. And even when he
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: himself is not in conversation with them, his themes, his messages,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: his policies, everything he wants to communicate is being communicated,
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: whether it's from Fox, whether it's from Ben Bongino's podcast,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: whether it's from, you know, Tommy's favorite new podcast, Steve
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: Bannon's podcast, whether whoever it's from, they're hearing it every
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: single day. And that is why Donald Trump continues to
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: have an iron grip on the Republican Party for that reason.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: Because his messages and what he wants to say is
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: being heard by all of them. And what fucking Mitch
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: McConnell wants to say, no one, anyone who's watching C-SPAN
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: can hear it, but really no one else. And the
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: same thing with all the other Republicans who don't want
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: the party to fall to Trump, right? Which is not
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell, but people like Adam Kinzinger or some of
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: these like never Trumpers. They don't have the media outlets
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: that Donald Trump has to communicate the message. And that's
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: why he's so powerful on the right still. And- We
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: should learn that lesson on our side.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: Just to leave us on a ominous note, which is
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: why it's so funny that Donald Trump tried to launch
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: a competitor to Facebook today. But here were the top
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: performing link posts on U.S. Facebook pages in the last
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: 24 hours from Kevin Russo, The New York Times' very
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: important Facebook top 10 account. Number one, Occupy Democrats, which
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: is a progressive page, which is great. And they do.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: Very good for themselves. That's amazing.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you feel good, right? You think this is good news? No.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: Number two, Ben Shapiro. Number three, Dan Bongino. Number four,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Top 13. Don't know what that is. Maybe it's neutral.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's a white supremacist site.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: Who knows?
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Number five, Ben Shapiro. Number six, Ben Shapiro. Number seven,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: Dan Bongino. Number eight, Ben Shapiro. Number nine, Dan Bongino.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: Number 10, Ben Shapiro.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: It's bad. Bad, Dan.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: It's not great. All right, everyone. We try to yell
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: to progressive billionaires all the time on this show to
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: stop investing in dumb organizations and other things that people
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: don't know about and television ads for Democratic campaigns and
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: to invest in some media companies. But so far, we're
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: not seeing anything. Maybe they're not listening.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: We have to write an op-ed in The Atlantic.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Honestly, that's probably true.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: That's probably true. That's where they're looking. All right. Thank
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: you to Amy Westervelt for joining us today. Everyone check
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: out Hot Take for ClimatePod. It's excellent. And everyone have
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: a great weekend. Offline is Sunday. Check that out. And
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: then remember, Monday will not be PSA, but first thing
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: Tuesday morning, the episode with me and Lovett and Tommy
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: will be in your phones. So check it out. Have
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: a great weekend, everyone.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our producer is Haley Muse and
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: Olivia Martinez is our associate producer. It's mixed and edited
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Brian Semmel, Caroline Reston,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: Madison Holman, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, and Milo Kim,
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: who film and upload these episodes as videos at youtube.com
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: slash crooked media.