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When Faith Meets Heartbreak—with Carlos Figueroa · Father's Refuge

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's calling you.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone is is checking up on you the the first couple days.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: People are stopping at your house and they're they're bringing they're bringing more food than you can you can eat.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're checking up on you and saying, Are you okay?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: What no one prepares you for, and I'm not sure if you you can connect with this, but uh a week goes by or two weeks goes by and all of a sudden the the phone goes quiet and you no longer get the calls or the checkups and that becomes extremely lonely.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a really difficult time, and no one prepares you you for that, right?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you almost say, like, where did all the people have said, like, I'm with you, brother, I'm I'm here for you.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that you need, and you hear it constantly as as you're going through this, anything you need, I'm I'm here, and you're in your and in your heart, all your heart wants to say is I just what I need is not to feel alone, but the phone stops stops ringing.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: A father is often expected to be the strong one to hold his family together, to keep moving forward, even when part of his world has fallen apart.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: After losing his daughter Jessica to cancer, James Moffitt discovered how few places existed for grieving fathers, and how many men were carrying in their pain in silence.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: The Father's Refuge podcast was created to give those fathers a place to be seen, heard, and reminded that they don't have to walk through grief alone.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Through honest conversations, personal stories, and faith-rooted encouragement, James explores the realities of loss, trauma, emotional healing, and rebuilding life after the unimaginable.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Grief may change a father forever, but it doesn't have to destroy his faith or take away his hope.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Father's Refuge Podcast, a place for grieving fathers to find understanding, healing, and refuge.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Father's Refuge.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm James Moffat, and this is a place for honest conversations about fatherhood, grief, faith, and finding support through difficult seasons.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: When someone we love is hurting, we often want to find the right words or do something that makes it better.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: But what happens when we can't fix it?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: How do we stay present?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: How do we allow others to be present for us?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm joined by Carlos Vigaroa, a minister, father, and author of I Will Run, Pursuing People with the Heart of the Father.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about his story, what fatherhood has taught him, and how faith and compassion can shape the way we respond to pain.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Carlos, welcome to the Father's Refuge.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, James.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy to be here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Amen, brother.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here as well.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, Carlos, before we talk about the book, what would you like our listeners to know about you and the experiences that shaped your faith?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Before anything else, I'd want people to know that I'm still learning to trust in God and get to know him.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just I think the people that are listening, I uh I look back at at the different seasons of my life and and the different um personas that I've gotten to be.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've gotten to be a leader, a father, a minister, a pastor, a husband, a father, and a son.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and in those, I've been in in high places and good places, and I've been blessed, but I've also gone through loss, through pain, through suffering, through moments where I've wondered, do I even matter to the Lord?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in each moment, as I I look back in life, I think God has been the one who has sustained me, who has been my fortress, has been my rock.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And hope can be found in Jesus and in the Lord in our best moments, but also in our darkest.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I'm just learning and I'm growing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I'm I'm feel honored that I get to share that with others.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you what, I turned 65 this year and I've been I've been saved for a long time, and I accepted the Lord into my heart by a chopping block out in the woods in Quinlan, Texas, many moons ago.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's been an adventure, and I will say that God is there for us in the the mountaintop experiences, but well as well in the valleys.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if anybody tells you that, once you become a Christian, you know, everything will just go your way and you won't have any pain or suffering or sorrow or, you know, all of that, well, they're lying because life can be difficult, can be tough, but having a relationship with God certainly can make things a lot easier.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: So was there a particular season that changed the way you understood God?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny because as I've I've gone through life, I've uh there's been many seasons where I've gotten to know God deeper and have changed my perspective of Him.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the gospel.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was that kid who slept under the church pews.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my dad was uh a minister.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I grew up thinking I I knew the faith.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I I remember in my early years, I started to doubt in the Lord and uh doubt that the God that my dad had had taught me had preached, that I had heard him preach from the uh from the sermon, uh, from the from the pulpit was my God.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember approaching him when I was a young man and saying, Dad, I don't think the the God that that you believe in is the one that I believe in.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that broke his his heart.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I remember seeing it in his in his face.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: But with so much love and tenderness, my dad said, No, let's let's read the book of Proverbs together.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I found the Lord through a man who, while I was trying to purposely hurt him, he he approached me back with love.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Later on, years later, I I I lost my dad about about six years ago.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I had been a pastor, a minister for a long time.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of those of you think you're you're strong, you think your faith is strong, you think that you do well.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: We had my wife and I had gone through some losses in our personal life, and we had gotten through them.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: We, you know, we've been through different seasons in our life, but this this moment of pain and of loss and of grief caused me to spiral, caused me to to fear far from the Lord that he no longer seed, that he no longer cared.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it it it took me through a very dark moment, dark season, one where even as a minister, hatred filled my heart and resentment hit held filled my heart and and grief took over.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was through people that despite my intent to hurt them, despite grief changing my character and who I was, refused to stop loving me in such a way that I was reminded who our heavenly father truly is.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and through people that that represented Christ, not in them trying to preach to me, not in them trying to cram the gospel in me or or shun me because of my pain, but walked through the pain with me and chose to love me, that I was able to come to know the heart of our father better.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and they they brought me back to understanding who he is.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if that answers your question.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and we have to recognize hurt people hurt people.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: When people are hurting, a lot of times they will lash out at others and intentionally or unintentionally say things that are hurtful.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if we are careful and we uh give people space to be who they are and not judge them too harshly, especially when you learn their story, when you find out that they're grieving and they're experiencing loss and grief, no matter what that takes shape as, then at that point you can go, okay, so this person is hurting, so I'm going to not take it personally, and I'm going to see how the Lord would allow me to respond in a loving, non-judgmental way.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're a you're a preacher's kid, and one of the things that I have heard, not really experienced, but one of the things I've heard is that when you're when you're raised in the church, you said you were sleeping under the pew, and so you were, you were, you absorbed your young mind and heart absorbed a lot of the gospel message.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Whether, whether you realized it or not, you're you're raised in that environment.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you knew the gospel.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: You knew Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you knew that God loved you, and you knew a lot of things in your head.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so I have heard that people, when they're in that kind of environment, when they're raised in a in a family and the father's the pastor and you're the preacher's kid, sometimes young people grow up and their relationship with God is the God of their father.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: If that makes sense.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, your faith is not in God Himself, but you identify with your father's faith, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because you ask people sometimes you're like, Who's Jesus to you, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll say, Well, I went to church all my life.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my parents took me to church.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: We went to every Sunday, and we sat in the pews and we listened to the gospel story or whatever it might be that they they heard the message that Sunday.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and so when you're trying to get to the to the root of their faith and you ask them, well, who's Jesus to you?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, Well, I I go to the Methodist church around the corner, or the Baptist church, or the Catholic church, or right?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they're they're identifying with the church building, the denomination, the teacher, the preacher, Sunday school teacher, pastor, whoever.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so did you did you feel like at some point that you you recognized that and you you transitioned or you came to a a place of personal responsibility where you had to decide who's Jesus, where who is he really to me, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you kind of you kind of talked, you touched on that just a little bit.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I said, I I um I was raised in the church.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I I fell in love with with the church and my belief of who God was and even ministry from a very young age.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think I preached my first sermon when I was six years old, and uh when I was young, I became a childhood evangelist.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I traveled across uh the state of Florida and the Southeast to churches from when I was seven years old to when I was uh 11.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I think to your point, although I I'd come to know the Lord through my father, through my mother, who were ministers, through being raised in the church, you almost developed a superficial relationship with the Lord.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, and I love how you you phrased it, the relationship through through my my parents, through my through my father.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: When I was a teenager, that I was no longer the uh the cute kid who used to preach uh in a very fiery way.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: My my relationship with the Lord, how to become my own.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's where that moment of of you know confrontation with myself of am I, I think I was 15 or 16 years old when I I I started experiencing some of the different things that life, what circumstances start to present to you through some personal hardship in my life, uh, through some things that I went through, some dark moments uh in my adolescence that made me feel like I was far from God and and I was I was broken and in how could anyone love me?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and I when I approached, I I became angry.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was a younger season in my life, and as I approached, I I I entered into this phase of I I would say depression and and anger and resentment towards the Lord for some things that had happened in my life.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I approached my dad, it was with anger of saying, I don't, I don't know if the God that you serve, that I've heard you say is a good God, is a faithful God, is uh a God who cares for his children.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: How could any any, and I'm a father now and now I I understand more, but in that moment, how could any good father allow these things to happen to his children?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a good God.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for the first time I had my my dad preached all my life, but for the first time I had I actually listened to him.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: He sat down with me and for 30 days we read the book of Proverbs together.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And his goal, he actually told me, Carlitos, if if after we read the book of Proverbs together, you tell me that you don't want none of this, I'm not gonna force you.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I just want you to come to know who the Lord is.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it it allowed us to go into deep, deeper conversations.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to bring my burdens not only to my my my father here on earth, but he helped me bring them to my heavenly father.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he showed me my dad, who was a great man, a great pastor.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: He showed me not only his love as a he as an earthly father who loves me, but he was able to bridge that gap between the Lord as our heavenly father and me as his as God's son, and that I did not walk alone in life.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that in our faith there comes a there comes a few moments where we have to understand that that we don't have to walk through life alone.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if we do, whether it be for grief, for pain, for for neglect, for whatever reason, maybe making us feel far from the Lord, He comforts the brokenhearted, he cries with us, he listens to us, he walks with us.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: But we have to allow him to to do that.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the first time in my life that I truly was able to say, you know what, this is no longer the the God of my father that I listened to him preach.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's now the the man of Jesus who has a relationship with me, and his sacrifice wasn't wasn't for any other reason than that he loved me.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that was that first encounter.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: The second was was after my my my dad died, and it's one of those I I thought that I was strong in in the faith.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I had been preaching for years, I was uh a pastor, I uh had a a large youth group, I was overseeing 43 churches in our denominations with with different youth groups, but that loss and that pain that I had when I lost my dad, my dad was my best friend.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and when I lost him, it was like something something broke, and I had to be reminded of that lesson that I learned when I was young.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, what was happening in your life when you realized you needed to write, I will run?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I went through through hardship.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: That that season was a dark season.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was going through grief.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was on the brink of of divorce with my wife.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I had grown cold in my heart.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was still actively serving as a minister, which is which is the crazy part.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: It made me understand that that scripture, when you hear people who go to the Lord and they've just been and say, But in your name, I was I was casting out demons, and he says, Depart from me, I didn't know you.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I now understand that verse a a little bit more because I was I was fully functioning in my in my roles, yet I was I had grown so bitter, so so far from the Lord.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I had I I was feeling I was feeling cold.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there were specific people that the Lord placed in my life.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: My wife, who truly showed me the love and the compassion and the mercy of the Lord, was an example of grace.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: A friend of mine who's like a brother, Daniel, who who loved me in a moment of darkness.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it made me think about the church and whether or not we do enough for the prodigals, those that that go far for whatever reason.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And my reason it was grief.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in a lot of Christians, grief is what the one thing that that they don't know how to overcome in their hearts that pushes them away from the Lord and causes them to become the prodigal.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was thinking, and I just had so much on my mind, so much in my heart about you know what I was going through.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started writing, it wasn't it, I didn't think it was gonna be a book.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just had so much inside of me, gratefulness for the Lord, history that I wanted to get out there, and it it turned into a book.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I straight up with a a friend and he said you should publish this.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and you're probably not the only person who has felt this way.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so it caused me to to publish it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it was honestly, it was just a I think it was a love letter to God and a love letter to to my dad, while also uh a self-reflection of if if God has called me to be a minister, am I loving his children the way that that he's called me to love them?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the church loving the prodigals, the people who have grown far and cold from the Lord, is the church doing enough and loving them enough.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where that came from.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a pastor, evangelist, teacher, I think it was Chuck Swindahl.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: He wrote uh he wrote several help books, little tiny help books, and one was on compassion.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the one of the things I learned early on in my life, uh when I was in street ministry for 10 years, never felt called to be a pastor, but I spent a lot of time on the streets working with street people and other people, you know, that were messed up in addictions and stuff, and uh Christian coffee houses.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I used to be one of those firing brimstone preachers, you know.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I knew the Bible, you know, I I could I could quote the scripture and I could, you know, use all the you know famous sayings of or stupid sayings of Turner Byrne and, you know, all those little fancy things that, you know, we like to beat people up, hit them over the head with the good book, you know.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the book on compassion, let me see if I can remember this.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: People don't care how much until they know how much you care.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, so compassion is is key.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Loving people where they're at and showing them compassion and love and meeting them.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: I had a pastor tell me one time, he said, Have you ever heard of the psychology of need?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now he had a master's degree.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was at his church, Pastor Tom Glisten is his name, and I was we were at his church for you know over a decade, and I was pretty close to the it was a small church, so we there was we had about 50 people at the most, and we'd go out to you know, fellowship breakfast and stuff with the guys, and we were talking about ministry and stuff, and he was like, Have you ever heard of the psychology of need?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, No, what does that mean?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Well, you see, people, people will come to us either directly or indirectly, and they will have needs.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And what if what do people come to church for?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because they have needs, they're hurting.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they need clothing, they need food, they need medical help, they need help for the rent, help for the light bill, they have all sorts of needs, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: And and the church can certainly meet some of those needs within reason.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: But he taught me a very important lesson, and he said that we have to meet them right where they're at.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: We have to meet them right where they're at.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if all we do is preach the gospel to them in an effort to get them saved, right, but we don't pay attention to their other needs, their physical needs, their mental needs, their their spiritual needs, their their the needs of the heart, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and so that was that taught me a lot, you know, and I was like, wow, psychology of need, that makes a lot of sense.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's you know, that's our job.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: We we are the hands and feet of Jesus.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and we are maybe the only Jesus some people are gonna see.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Some people may not go to church, but they might not darken the the doors of a church and go in and sit down in the pew and listen to a message.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: We might meet them, you know, at Planet Fitness, we might meet them in the grocery store, we may may meet them out on the street, you know, uh, but we are the hands and feet of Jesus, and we have to we have to remember that God saved us, you know, when we were in need.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we all we all need we all need Jesus.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're all broken, you know, we're all hurting.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Even once, even once you're a believer in Jesus and once you're born again, and you know, the process of sanctification is not instantaneous.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: It it takes a lifetime.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: That sanctification process, as we as we become more and more alike who Jesus is, it takes a lifetime.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: And none of us have it figured out.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, I've always tried to remember that when I'm when I'm talking to people or meeting people for the first time or whatever.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I that's what I love about the story of the prodigal son and and and the father is that this this kid is so broken in his life.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's gone through he's he's strayed so far from his father, and and he's coming back and he has that speech in his in his and in his head of I'm not worthy of being your son anymore.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm probably one of your your servants, I'm willing and and the father runs out from the porch, runs to his son, grabs him and wraps him in interrupt.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like he interrupts that speech and says, No, you you are my son, and I'm gonna place that robe, I'm gonna place that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's the style of Jesus, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: When he chose his disciples, he went out and he he goes, he didn't it wasn't that they found Jesus, he went out and he went to to them and said, Follow me.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: When he goes when with with uh Lazarus passes away and and he goes to encounter Lazarus' sisters, we we see a Jesus who weeps with with the sisters because he finds people in their in their moments and he he's able to connect with them wherever they are.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's I think what God has called us as the church.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: If we to your point, if we are the hands and we are the feet of God and we we're able to operate as he does, then our our job is to pursue the brokenhearted, to follow to look for the disciple where they are and bring them near, to find the person who is going through a difficult season and say, I'm with you in in this season.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's what it is to be Christ-like, and I think that that's what my experience has I I knew the Bible, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've got an opportunity to study other under Dr.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Oney, and he's a uh he's a pastor uh who develops mentors and leaders.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things he that he says, which I take profoundly, is it is possible to have deep knowledge of the Bible and scripture and still not know who God is.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think I can I can understand that because I grew up, I was a preacher, I went to through seminary, I knew I knew scripture, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew the scriptures that were supposed to sustain me in my in my dark moments of despair.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yet what helped me find my my myself close to the Lord was the people who embodied the scripture and lived it and allowed compassion and grace and mercy and love and and all the all those things to shine through them.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what drew me near to the Lord.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it wasn't my knowledge, it was the experience of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: with people who lived like Christ, who embodied the character of of Christ.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Having head knowledge and being able to memorize scripture is good, certainly some power there, and it's certainly some benefit to that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: However, if you if you can't love people, if you can't if you can't show compassion to people and all you're doing is just throwing scripture at them, I think it says in the Bible, I can't remember exactly where it's at, probably in the New Testament, Jesus was saying if you if you can do this or that, but you don't love if you don't love the least of these, right?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I forget what parable that was or whatever, but it's like, yeah, you've got all these accolades, you've got these degrees, you've got your you're a minister of the gospel and you have all this head knowledge, but you can't love people and show them compassion, then all of that head knowledge is worth nothing, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: So your subtitle speaks about pursuing people with the heart of the father.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like in an ordinary difficult moment?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: A couple different things.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: To my personal experience, I had a couple people, there was a moment that I was arguing with my wife where I was I was physically trying and I and and afterwards we talked about this and I was on her and in that in that season of life I was trying to push away anything that was good, anything that was godly, anything that reminded me of the goodness of God and my wife she's such a godly woman she was she was one of the biggest ones I was trying to push away.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a moment that we were we were sitting and I was I was arguing with with her and I was I I was telling her I don't I don't want I said some very ugly things things I would never repeat but I was telling her I I didn't want to be in in the marriage anymore.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't love God I I was I was in a dark place.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember looking at her and I'm I'm telling her these things that in any any normal situation would justify someone to say you know what I'm done I'm walking away I'm not gonna let anyone talk to me this way and my wife looks at me and she she tells me Carlos I can I can see you're hurting.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be your friend can I can I hug you and and I do think scripture is possible anyone who's listening I don't want uh I think that it's it's powerful I think that it transforms the heart it transforms the minds I don't want to take away from from scripture but in that moment my wife was living scripture that person who in the midst of everything that I was going through did not give up on me didn't did not cease in in loving me said I can see that what you need is friendship and I want to give it to you that that was that first step that brought me back to who the what the Lord wanted to do in me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think also on a more practical approach speaking specifically to grief one of the things that I never understood as a minister and I had been there on people's bedside as as they passed away and I had been there on the moments after after a funeral I but it was the first time I've lived through it with with my with my dad I was young I was 20 28 when my dad passed away 29 and your someone passes away and your phone blows up everyone's calling you everyone is is checking up on you the the first couple days people are stopping at your house and they're they're bringing they're bringing more food than you can you can eat they're checking up on you and saying are you okay what no one prepares you for and I'm not sure if you you can connect with this but a week goes by or two weeks goes by and all of a sudden the the phone goes quiet and you no longer get the calls or the checkups and that becomes extremely lonely um and that's a really difficult time and no one prepares you you for that right and you almost say like where did all the people have said like I'm with you brother I'm I'm here for you anything that you need and you hear it constantly as as you're going through this was anything you need I'm I'm here and you're in your and in your heart all your heart wants to say is I just what I need is not to feel alone but the phone stops stops ringing.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think on a practical approach how we can show it I think is as as a as friends as brothers in Christ as as a church is consistency.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like when the church does a really good job about organizing after a a crisis and coming together but once the crisis seems to settle are are you still there?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Are you still available?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are you still show showing up are you still doing that phone call three weeks in a month in two months in and saying hey I'm I'm thinking of you is there anything that you need do you want to chat do you want to chat?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to grab some grab some lunch?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Those actionable items the ones that Jesus did when he would go and he would sit and eat with with someone right and so I'm not sure if that answers your question but it's it's just that's what I think I remember the most in in that in that season.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well I think that people do the they do the best that they can in that they they realize that when somebody passes away it's a very traumatic experience for any of us.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't care how old you are we we've all had brothers, sisters, grandparents, parents, coworkers, friends.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: We've we've seen people not just necessarily experienced loss and grief from them passing away, but there are people out there that have loss and grief because of losing a losing a career or losing a relationship or divorce or a whole host of of traumas that that we experience in you know we're all human.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: We belong to this big thing called humanity and there are many things pain points and pressures and and stressors that that people experience and I think that people don't people don't really know what to say right and unless they've actually experienced it firsthand.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: They really don't know what to say and they you know like you said the church is real good at rallying around a crisis and but but at some point life is normal for them.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so they get back to normal while you're still grieving while you're still learning how to live with the lost right and anyway yeah I think you're right.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think the church does need to get better at being consistent and providing more long term help if that makes any sense.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it doesn't need to be heavy either right like no I think sometimes we we we we feel that that it needs to be this giant thing but I I think of of my my my friend Daniel in that time Daniel it was a quick checkup it was a a a phone call to let me know that he was thinking about me or praying it was a it was a text message of sometimes it was a hey let's let's go grab a a bite of of pizza and we weren't even talking about about what I was going through but just knowing that I had someone who who thought of me and still loved me and would remind me of of the goodness in life and the goodness of God.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know th those those little things help heal more than I think anyone could possibly understand.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Just being a fellow human just just meeting practical needs and just showing up just being there you know and I think I think a lot of people grow quiet and distant because they feel like they feel like you have to live through and grow within yourself and understand how to how to manage the pain and manage the sorrow you know and all of that and all the many emotions you know the six stages of grief and all of that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So how has being how has being a father changed the way you understand love and the limits of what you can control?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I uh you know it's funny I I never knew that I could uh love as much as I do until I had my my my girls I have two little girls but I also don't think that in my life I've ever felt so so for lack of a better word helpless at times because I think that as a dad you want to do everything that you can to protect my you know my kids uh to make sure that they don't suffer to make sure that they don't go through through pain to make sure that they don't feel lost and I um I remember when my when my family was going through through a grief my my daughter was uh just had just turned three and she was very close to to my dad and I remember seeing a three year old cry because she was wondering where her where her grandfather was and no one preps you how to have those conversations.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that what fatherhood has taught me is exactly what loss taught me and it's that best thing that you can do for anyone especially your children is to always remind them that you're that you're there and that I may you may not have all the answers uh you may not be able to fix everything but dad dad will be there and I I um I actually finished my book with a with a letter to to my daughters and it's something that I hope that as a dad I never have to go through is a moment where my kids go far from the Lord.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I hope they never have to do the mistakes that I that I had to that they can they can learn from my mistakes and not have to make their own but if my daughters ever do stray they ever grow far grow cold if life takes them through a dark path there's one thing that I I would want them to know is that if they ever looked back just for a second looking for hope I I would run to them and there's there's nothing in life that could keep me from loving them and from from running towards them.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Very good so you've written about the story of Lazarus and the feeling that Jesus hadn't arrived when we expected what draws you to that part of the story there's a there's something interesting about that story that uh that touched touch me and I well I was reading this in a devotional one day and I I had to I ended up writing about it I ended up doing a couple sermons about about the story because I feel like sometimes we especially as as men we feel that we have to have all things in control that uh we should know the answers um that we should be able to to handle our feelings our emotions our grief but here's here's a woman who knows God's power who knows who Jesus is who knows he's the Messiah and and in this moment Jesus arrives and in their head jesus arrives arrives late and and they confront the Lord and they tell they tell him if you would have been here if if if if you would have changed my my circumstance if your power would have been shown if you would have just had manifested yourself my brother Lazarus wouldn't have have died and a lot of times we focus on on the miracle that happens afterwards because we know the ending of the story that Jesus calls the name of Lazarus and he comes out but I think we missed the beauty of the moment where where Jesus wept with with Mary and and he he wept with Martha and he felt with with them.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what what really caused me to the story is that in our our pain, in our suffering in our lives in the difficult moments whether it's loss whether like you said it's divorce whether it's lack of employment whether it's financial hardship there is a God who walks in our sentiments with us who as we probably started the conversation saying it's not that we walk into the faith and everything is going to be okay there's gonna be hardship in life but the beauty about it is that there's a God who was willing to weep with two sisters that were hurting because they lost their their uh their brother and if I could give any words of of hope of encouragement to someone that may be listening to this podcast and maybe going through any difficult season in life it's that the same Jesus that wept with Mary and Martha is present in in that circumstance.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't promise that he's gonna resurrect that he's gonna change the circumstances although he is all powerful and is resurrectional life but he does promise that in our darkest moments in our darkest season he will not leave us he will not forsake us he will not abandon us he will walk with us like a good father.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what really called me to that story.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we we had a season of time where we had a 10 year old daughter that had cancer, had a brain tumor.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: They took out as much of it as they could and they said that because because the part of the tumor was attached to her brain stem there was not anything that they could do about that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if Jessica lived for twelve months that we'd be very lucky.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: They gave us zero hope and she lasted 14 months.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: She was 10 years old.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: She would have been 11 on September the 11th when the World Trade Centers came down.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we spent 12 months or maybe pretty close to 14 months praying and hoping and asking God to heal her on this side of heaven.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: And as as we walked into the beginning of this journey initially our our our our faith was really strong really strong and at some point I had an epiphany and I recognized that she wasn't mine.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Jessica was not my child she was not my possession and she belonged to God and God could heal her on this side of heaven and obviously would have we'd have given him all the praise honor and glory for that.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we wanted that was in our heart you know who what parent wouldn't want that?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And but then she did pass.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know our worst fears came to fruition.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: So and I know I know I'm not alone I know there are lots of moms and dads out there that have experienced the loss of a child.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: So bringing that full full circle what would you say to a father who prayed for healing and lost his child?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: I first off I'm I appreciate your vulnerability and you sharing that that your experience I think that I've never lived through through that that circumstance I've I I did pray my dad was sick for a long time and I prayed for him for a long time but I can't imagine losing my my my daughters and and the pain that that brings but I do remember I was I was 11 years old and I actually wrote about this in my um my my book.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was 11 years old and my dad was a a pastor and uh I remember a couple in our church who had a baby and and the baby was born with with some some some defects and and some health issues and they told they told the parents that the baby would last only a few hours and the baby lived for for a few months and we would go there after school my dad would pick me up from school and we would we would go to the hospital and I remember hearing my dad tell Robert and Nancy he would tell them every single day Robert this this this child no matter how long you have them if it's one day if it's it's if it's 60 years every day that the Lord gives with with a child that's a gift from God.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I uh and I as years have gone by and I have I've gotten to see my daughters grow and I I now understand those words.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think every single day uh that the Lord gives us as you said they are they are the Lord's they're not ours and and they're a gift from him.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that there is hope in in Jesus and for the person going through a difficult experience I've seen miracles.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I I saw a man have a massive heart attack followed by two strokes and be on ventilators for a month and then preach on a Sunday the the the day that he got out of the hospital.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I've seen miracles from the Lord and believe that the Lord can can do miracles.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: But for the person who has experienced loss grief death child a parent a sibling a friend I I would say that there is a comforter that is always with us and that if we bring our our our hurt our cries and the story of Martha and Mary even our what ifs Lord what if you would have why didn't you God can handle our what ifs God can handle our questions God can handle our anger he can handle and uh handle our disappointment he can handle those those questions uh and and he's willing to all he wants is a heart that goes goes to him and I don't claim to know all God's purposes and plans in our lives but I do know that he walks with us in every season.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so for that person who has experienced loss I first want to say I'm so sorry for your loss and and I know how much pain and grief can hurt and if you don't know Christ I also know someone who is willing to be with you in the midst of your pain that even though your your prayers may not have felt answered, I promise you they were heard uh and that he promises that he's gonna walk with you in this season.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when a father pulls away during a painful season how can someone reach towards him while still respecting his space?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh a few things.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think number one um we need to allow room for someone to express their their feelings before that moment without turning it into a debate.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the one of the mistakes that we do is that we hear someone say how much this hurts or how angry they are at the Lord or how frustrating they are, how disappointed they are that God didn't answer their prayer and we try to take that into a moment kind of of what you mentioned earlier and and with with the the good book try to give all the answers and we try to debate someone's pain.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Someone's pain is real and their disappointment and their anger is justified and it's and it's and it's real.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we can avoid someone pulling away by allowing them to to to speak their their grief and I've learned that in in ministry a simple I I hear how much this hurts tell me more goes a really long way.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think once someone starts uh pulling further I think simple con contact and giving them the choice um is is a best way to approach so I'm thinking about you today a text I'm thinking about you today with no need to reply or I can drop off you know I can drop off some dinner on on Thursday if that would be helpful to you guys in this in this time or would you like some company or Daniel would because I I'm a big car guy and I I I like building cars and he used to Daniel used to call me and be like hey bro you want to go for for a drive with no expectations we could we could take the drive and I could talk to him for an hour about what I was going through or we could go to and I'm not suggesting anyone do that do anything illegal but we could go into a a random road and do donuts until we were done of and and but that's just that that fellowship with someone with no expectations he had no expectations of of me outside of wanting to be there.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there was moments where Daniel would text me and he would say hey bro I'm thinking about you today you you know let me know if you want to chat and I wouldn't answer him for days.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think I've ever told him this but those text messages mattered and they made the difference.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say for that person that's pulling away let them know kind of like that father did on that prodigal son that you're willing to run towards them while respecting their boundaries.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: So for the father listening who feels worn out and doesn't know what comes next, what would you want him to hear today?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think I wish someone would have told me that I don't need to know what the rest of my life is going to look like today.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if all that I could manage was the next responsibility or the next honest conversation or the next thing that I need to take care of, then that was a good enough place to to begin because I think so many times we as as fathers as men we feel like we have to have everything put together and all the answers and all the solutions men tend to be the fix it people we wanna we wanna solve things and have the solution and it's okay not to and just to do the next thing and if prayer is difficult you can tell God that too it's okay God to to to be vulnerable with God to be angry with God to talk to him like a normal person.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I've had those moments where I was I was uh it was a yelling match at God and he could handle it and it was I'm too tired I'm I'm hurting too much I don't know what to say but that honest place was a great place to begin because the father meets us at that very place that moment where the prodigal said I'm not worthy to be a son I'm now your slave that's exactly where the father met that that that guy and and the father's willing to meet you in your in your moment of desperation of frustration of anger of anxiety of hurt of resentment he'll meet you there.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to share a story with you and with a listening audience do you did you ever see the movie Forrest Gump?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes that's a good that's a classic do you do you remember Lieutenant Dan yes sir with no leg he lost his legs with a and forced forrest became a believer in Jesus and he he uh in his own unique way he tried to live his faith and be good and you know all of that and he was a friend to lieutenant Dan and there was A scene when they were out shrimping on his shrimp boat, right?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you remember the scene when when Forrest was, I guess he was in a on a river or in a bay or whatever, and he's chugging along in his shrimp boat, and he sees Lieutenant Dan sitting in his in his wheelchair on the fishing pier.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he sees him and his face lights up.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what does Forrest do?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: He jumps off the boat to go to him.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: And the and the boat just kept going.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so they were reunited, you know, and they got, you know, further along in the story.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: And Lieutenant, they got out in, I guess there was a hurricane that came through, right?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: Destroyed everything, but they were out in the middle of it on the boat.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what was Lieutenant Dan doing?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: He was in the the furthest topmost part of the mast on that boat, yelling and screaming at God, angry, shaking his fist, taunting him, saying, Is that the best you can do?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he he was pretty angry.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he was angry he lost his legs, he was angry that he wasn't a soldier anymore, he wasn't in charge of men, he felt useless.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: All those emotions were going through him.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and that that is the epitome of that epitomizes how I felt.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there were there were several times that, you know, I was walking up the gravel road with a beer in one hand and shaking my fist at God in another in a thunderstorm.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I hate lightning.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna tell you, I don't like lightning.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I at that point I didn't I just really didn't care.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was angry and I was like, you know, yelling and screaming and cursing and just really just being real.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'm glad that God is a big God and that that He is able to hear us in those moments and allows us to be real.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's, you know, sometimes we have to do that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we have to, you know, challenge God.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing here?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and He can handle it.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: He can He can handle it.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I I wish that that's what someone would have told me early on.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I would have avoided a lot of what I unnecessary things I went through.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: If someone would have told me, bring it all to the Lord, which you know by theory, but putting it into practice in a dark time is the hard, hard thing to do.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: But if someone would have said, you know, I think you can bring it, bring it to the Lord, bring it all, raw, how you're feeling, he can handle it and he'll start there.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I that's probably the best piece of advice you could give someone in that situation.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: So after losing my children, if I had to live with questions, I can't neatly answer.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: I still have questions.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be like, when I get to heaven, I'm gonna be like, uh, Jesus, when you get a chance, I've got some questions.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: And some of our listeners are in that same place.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: How do you approach a conversation with someone whose pain is still very present?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh think a couple things.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think number one is sincerity, right?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: It it's it's what you just said that you how you felt right now of I don't I don't know all the answers.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: So many times as as Christians, you know, we think that we should have the answers and we try to approach from a place of answering versus of of listening to someone.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times people just need to get their what they have on their chest out uh their their innermost thoughts out.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and to what I said earlier, it doesn't have to be a debate.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to, in a moment of grief and pain is not the moment where I need to I need to challenge someone's theology.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's the moment where I can show the love, grace, and compassion of the Lord and that I can I can be a a representative of His of His Holiness and His Spirit.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think too, it's what we've been talking about.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's that consistency, right?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have a a a Lord that pursues us.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's so beautiful that we have a God who continues to pursue us.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're his hands and his feet, then we need to continue to pursue others as as well.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think number three is it's what you were just talking about with that for us.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have to go watch it again as a Christian movie now.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's that it's that friendship people don't need all the answers.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: They need friendship, they need someone who's gonna live gonna live life with with them.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: To me, when I was younger, that was my dad.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh to me, as I was older and I went through loss, that was Brittany, that was Daniel, it was some others, people who who loved me, who were with me, who were consistent.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what truly matters in those times.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, Carlos, thank you for sharing your time and your heart with us.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: To the father listening, you don't have to have the right words to tell someone you're hurting.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can begin with, this has been a hard week, and I could use someone to listen.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn more about Carlos and his book and his ministry.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: I will run Pursuing People with the Heart of the Father at CK Figaroa.com.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's C K F I G U E R O A.com.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: To the listening audience, I want to say thank you for the privilege of your time.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to the Father's Refuge.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation brought someone to mind, consider reaching out and letting them know you're available.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Carlos, would you close with a prayer for the fathers and families listening who are carrying grief or uncertainty?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Father, we come before your presence.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And first, I just want to give you thanks for allowing us to have these conversations, for allowing us to get to know your heart.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, you promise in your word that you don't leave us, that you don't forsake us.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: You promise in your word that you will give us comfort.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in these moments, in these seasons of grief, of loss, of pain, of suffering, of circumstances that we may not understand, Lord, cling on to your promises, understanding that you are a good father and that you walk with us, that you have not forsaken us nor forgotten us.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: I pray for the man, the father, the son that may be listening to this podcast, that may be asking where are you, that they may be touched in this and that this may be their reminder that you are running towards them.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: I give you thanks for this ministry and I bless it.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: In the name of Jesus we pray.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, my friend.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was nice spending time with you.