Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #50: Interview with Dr. Leo Bissonnette

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #50: Interview with Dr. Leo Bissonnette · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:13
Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
0:19
invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
0:22
Remarkable World Commentary here.
0:25
Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights,
0:28
perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
0:35
especially kids with disabilities.
0:38
Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
0:42
dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
0:46
law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:49
She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
0:53
skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been
0:59
internationally recognized for her work and roles,
1:02
she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
1:15
I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
1:22
through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
1:28
I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
1:32
author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
1:38
You may know me from a few headline moments.
1:41
In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian
1:48
government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
1:53
not just to sighted ones.
1:56
And in July of 2019, 19.
1:58
I call that the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to
2:05
turn equal access into federal law, and most recently,
2:11
on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum
2:19
Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
2:25
When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio,
2:31
you will find me coaching kids with vision loss,
2:36
producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
2:40
gadgets talk back in plain language.
2:45
Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into everyday
2:52
practice. I invite you to think of this show has our shared workbench where policy meets
3:01
lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
3:08
Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
3:12
let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as
3:20
remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
3:25
Leo Bissonnette, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast.
3:31
Leo Bissonnette: It's a pleasure to be with you today.
3:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I have to tell our listeners that ours is a friendship that goes back so many years.
3:39
I remember the very first day that we met you and your mom.
3:44
What a lovely lady she was.
3:46
And we have maintained our contact, our our friendship over the years,
3:52
despite you being in Montreal, my favorite city and me being here in
3:58
Toronto. So welcome. And are you ready?
4:04
Leo Bissonnette: I am ready to go.
4:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. All right. So Leo, I'd like to start at the beginning.
4:14
And how did growing up in Montreal and learning Braille early shape your
4:24
confidence and your approach to school and independence?
4:32
Leo Bissonnette: You know, I think it was a blessing in many ways that early in the game it became clear
4:37
that my vision was not going to be great.
4:40
And I think given the advocacy work that my mother did.
4:44
And we'll be talking about that a little bit in various ways,
4:48
she said, okay, if his vision is going to be the issue,
4:51
let's talk about where Braille could fit into his life in terms of reading and writing.
4:57
And as I went into grade three, specifically having worked in print in the
5:01
previous start of my education, that was a transition year where I learned
5:08
Braille and how to read it and how to write it.
5:11
And that made a real big difference, because that lifelong skill has stood me in
5:16
good stead in education, in work, in leisure and so forth.
5:23
Because over the years, I started with a Perkins Brailler and a slate
5:28
and stylus pocket guide, and ended up and still have on my desk of a
5:33
Braille display. That's quite powerful for reading documents.
5:38
So Braille has made a big difference in the quality of work and education that I had.
5:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to agree with you.
5:49
Leo Bissonnette: And it certainly give you the it gives you the confidence. I mean, you know, I could,
5:53
you know, when I think of it, you know, at some point walking into a
5:56
lecture room with five by eight index cards to lecture,
6:00
you know, I, you know, certainly it gave me the confidence to stand
6:04
up in a lecture hall and teach sociology.
6:07
You know, it was special.
6:09
And, you know, whether it made a difference to those in the classroom as students
6:12
watching, at least I felt that as a faculty member,
6:16
I was able to do what any other professor would do.
6:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, your mother's advocacy, insisting on Braille,
6:25
securing a Perkins brailler and hunting down audio books seems very pivotal.
6:34
What did those early support teach you about what families and schools could
6:44
do? Right.
6:45
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think, you know, initially, because she just did it so
6:48
seamlessly and quietly.
6:51
It was years later that, you know, I we began to unpack some of this
6:56
in discussions and I said, well, first of all,
6:58
what really got you going?
7:00
I said, like, you know, you know, we talked about this at a time when
7:04
we were starting to get online resources and you could do online searches for this and
7:08
that.
7:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
7:09
Leo Bissonnette: You know, even to get for example, I don't know how to this day,
7:12
she really found the recordings for the Blind Incorporated catalog,
7:17
which was in two volumes at the time.
7:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
7:20
Leo Bissonnette: She got a lead on it from somebody, a friend in the States,
7:22
and she got the volumes, and I took those to the Department of
7:26
Sociology, for example, and the Prof.
7:28
The chairman of the department was blown away,
7:31
and he went through it and found books that would get me started in the first sociology
7:35
courses I took. I mean, when you think of that,
7:37
you know, and you compare it to what we can now do today.
7:40
Wow. You know, that was something then the idea that in Canada,
7:46
of course, we we didn't have total access, like recordings for the blind and
7:51
incorporated did not do necessarily Canadian textbooks.
7:55
Okay. How do you fill that gap?
7:57
Well my mother recruited people in the family to record.
8:02
My uncle used to go on business trips and even in the,
8:06
in the early days with the reel to reel, small portable tape recorder and recorded
8:11
chapters of books. And of course, then, of course,
8:13
we moved into the more traditional cassette tape recorders.
8:17
But when you think of that, you know, going back to the early 70s,
8:20
late 60s, early 70s, incredible stuff.
8:23
And again, she did it in a very seamless way.
8:26
But it was later on we talked about it and I said,
8:30
well, what was the motivation behind why you were so determined to what she said?
8:35
First of all, I thought education was going to be the key for you to open up doors.
8:40
It was going to be the key to get you potentially a job.
8:43
It was, you know, that kind of thing. So it was she was really motivated to make that
8:47
happen. And God love her, she did.
8:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy oh boy, what a lady.
8:54
Leo Bissonnette: Well, you know, it's funny. When I eventually did land the job I did,
8:57
which was running at an office for students with disability.
9:01
Yeah. She said to me, she said, well, she said,
9:04
you don't need a written job description.
9:06
Just think about what I did for you.
9:08
And we talked about it. That's sort of what opened the discussion to sort of, you know,
9:12
say, well, how did you do it and what were the insights you got?
9:16
So, you know, it's a fascinating time and a fascinating legacy that she left.
9:22
And it did stood me in good stead because, well,
9:25
she told the story about when she wanted me to go to Loyola High School,
9:30
a private Jesuit high school.
9:32
Right. And she went in and, you know, they said to her,
9:35
well, you know, realize here, if a student fails first year high school,
9:41
they cannot return.
9:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Yeah.
9:44
Leo Bissonnette: So and so, my mother said to the principal at the time,
9:47
she said, well, he'll be graduating.
9:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Good for her.
9:52
Leo Bissonnette: Well, four years later, I did graduate with everybody else.
9:56
In fact, we were a class of 180 as we started in 180 was finished.
10:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
10:02
Leo Bissonnette: My mother went up to him, the, you know, they're having coffee and and
10:06
refreshments. And she said, Leo still here?
10:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good for her.
10:11
Leo Bissonnette: And I think, you know. And he laughed and he said,
10:14
okay, he got it, you know.
10:16
But I think that that said something powerful and,
10:20
you know, it wasn't an easy run.
10:23
I mean, the other skill, the other thing that she insisted that I get
10:26
was typing.
10:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right.
10:28
Leo Bissonnette: And she found through again, a friend who knew the principal of Graham's
10:34
business college at the time, Ted Page.
10:37
She talked to him, and as a result, he volunteered every Thursday afternoon at
10:42
the Philippine Latin. Well, it was called the Montreal Association School
10:46
for the blind at the time.
10:49
She convinced him to come in on a volunteer basis to teach a number of us typing.
10:53
Wow, that skill got, I'd say, about a good 5 or 6 of us,
10:58
you know, ready to to take on life with that skill.
11:03
So, you know, I think that that's sort of the legacy summarized in that fashion.
11:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now you've lived both as a student and as a professor and as a professor with vision
11:18
loss. When you first taught sociology at Concordia.
11:24
What practical systems did you bill readers scanning early word processors
11:34
to grade and give feedback independently?
11:39
Leo Bissonnette: Well, the interesting thing, and again, my mother and later on,
11:44
my wife would read to me the the exams and the handwritten exams.
11:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
11:50
Leo Bissonnette: You know, when you think of it at that point, you know, and oh,
11:54
the multiple choice. As time evolved, there was a scoring system that you could
11:59
submit answers and students answer sheets would be collated and you get grades.
12:03
But still the written questions on these exams my mother,
12:08
my wife were great in reading to me.
12:11
Now, it got really interesting when the computers came out and the students could
12:16
give me disks. So I would set it up in such a way that a lot of the assignments were take
12:22
home assignments so that they could, you know,
12:25
do some research. And actually, in the process of having them do it that way,
12:32
I was able to teach them a lot about good writing styles how to handle footnotes and so
12:38
forth. So it was a win win, I think, for a lot of things.
12:40
But certainly I was able to independently grade those papers that students would
12:44
Students give me disk copies of, you know.
12:46
So that's how that evolved.
12:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess we've come such a long way from them.
12:53
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because I've gone back in time and lectured and,
13:01
you know, people say, well, now you can just put an earphone in
13:03
your ear and so forth. Well, I guess maybe I'm still old school.
13:06
Those five by eight index cards that I started with are still good today,
13:11
right? You know, I was at a meeting last night on a committee that I'm on,
13:15
and I had my five by eight index cards with the agenda.
13:20
I still think that's, you know, well, it's maybe neat, nifty to use
13:23
all this technology with an earphone hanging out of your ear and an iPhone talking.
13:28
I still think I'm old school and say, okay, this other stuff has a place,
13:32
but there's some good old traditional ways that still stand the test of time.
13:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So Braille lives on. And I agree with you.
13:40
I think, you know, like those five by eight index cards.
13:45
I believe in them. I do, you know.
13:48
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah, I agree, I agree.
13:51
You know, and let's be clear that things have evolved.
13:54
The braille displays do very well in connection connected to iPhones and to Macs
13:59
and to windows computers.
14:02
They have a place and and I think it says something to about Braille because I think,
14:07
well, we'll probably talk more about it, but while it may be nice to say that,
14:11
oh, our computers talk to us, but I think Braille still gives us that total
14:16
description of what you know, how is how is the name spelt how is a term
14:22
spelled? How is a sentence punctuated?
14:24
I think this the everybody says, let's go audio.
14:30
But I think there's a whole dimension that's lost if you don't have that,
14:35
you know, access. Yes.
14:37
How do you spell the name?
14:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right.
14:40
Leo Bissonnette: You know, it may sound this way, when you actually look at the spelling.
14:43
And that's what I think makes a difference.
14:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, even taking your last name Leo Bissonnette.
14:51
Oh yeah. How do we uneven my last name Jodhan.
14:55
How do you spell it.
14:57
Leo Bissonnette: I've had mine spelled in various ways.
14:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Me too.
15:01
Leo Bissonnette: And you know. And why have that detract from good work that you're doing.
15:08
I think that's what it comes down to style to become much more conscious.
15:13
Okay. What does it mean if you're writing an academic paper or even just an essay or
15:17
anything. Right. Underline a heading.
15:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
15:20
Leo Bissonnette: You know, I think these are things that you don't want to get lost.
15:25
And I worry at times that with this real, everybody says we must go auditory.
15:32
It's a help. And it has a place, but let's not let's talk about that toolbox
15:38
that has the things you need in it Anyway, there you go.
15:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Now, looking back at your 35 year career at Concordia University,
15:50
what was the mission that you had set for the Access Center for students with Disabilities
15:59
Act's aid, and how did that mission evolve over time?
16:05
Leo Bissonnette: Well, it's interesting that when I go back to the the year that I started back in,
16:11
you know, mid 80s and, you know, the early 80s,
16:13
rather it Anne Kirby, who was indeed very much the founder of the
16:18
center where she was given the job along with other duties.
16:23
Oh, yeah. You can take care of the first few students.
16:26
Well, quickly she began to recruit a lot of students who had initially mobility
16:33
impairments, so making the campus more accessible.
16:36
But then then you had a number of visually impaired students.
16:40
Come. And then you were starting to see a group of students who were learning disabled.
16:47
So and the numbers were beginning to grow sufficiently where you could justify the
16:53
existence of an office.
16:54
So she hired me to take over the running of that office to re set in place programs that
17:01
would accommodate the students with the range of disabilities that they presented,
17:05
along with breaking into the whole discussion with faculty.
17:10
How do you teach students with the respect of disabilities?
17:14
And that that became a real challenge because,
17:16
you know, it's a delicate balance when you're working with faculty because,
17:21
you know, you're trying to balance to say, okay,
17:24
you guys on the faculty side are the subject matter experts.
17:31
You know, I'm not going to tell you how to what's involved in teaching biology and so
17:36
forth. You'll tell me more.
17:39
What's involved in that?
17:40
My job is to understand what you're trying to teach and give you techniques to accommodate
17:46
that student. So what we want to develop is a working partnership to make that happen for
17:53
the student. And that's really where things begin.
17:58
You know, that was the job that I had to take on,
18:00
which was a good job to breaking down those barriers to get faculty and students and our
18:05
office talking together.
18:07
And what you didn't want to end up with were situations where you were saying,
18:10
okay, the next step is the human rights lawyers.
18:13
Get all the lawyers involved. Let's work this out.
18:17
And in fact, actually over the years, I ended up developing some interesting
18:21
partnerships with some professors to, you know,
18:25
they were they really came on side and they, they,
18:28
you know, they would bring ideas to the table,
18:30
especially teaching some of the sciences and so forth.
18:33
So that was sort of the that was the, the, the goal in a nutshell,
18:37
was to get this to happen for a range of students with disabilities.
18:42
And, you know, playing it forward.
18:44
As I moved into retirement, we were then beginning to see students with
18:49
on the autism spectrum again.
18:52
How do you accommodate them? Because that was,
18:54
you know, again, another population bringing their needs to the table,
18:59
finding out how to deal with that.
19:01
And of course, the other thing too, as part of it,
19:04
there wasn't always funding for some of the students and programs.
19:08
You know, if you were dyslexic, you were not getting money from Quebec.
19:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
19:12
Leo Bissonnette: And it was to get money eventually available to fund tutoring and note taking and this
19:20
thing and that. So, you know, that was sort of it was to evolve the
19:24
services to meet a whole range of subpopulations,
19:29
if you will.
19:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, I guess you had a lot of barriers to break down in those days,
19:38
didn't you?
19:39
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And the barriers were sometimes attitudinal.
19:42
Yes. You know, what are you guys doing here?
19:44
You're taking up resources.
19:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're taking up space.
19:47
Leo Bissonnette: You're taking up. Well, I remember the exams office coordinator at
19:50
the years ago saying, why should I be paying for your exam
19:54
invigilators and so forth.
19:56
Why should you? Why should I be paying for extended time?
19:59
We pay an invigilator for three hours.
20:01
No more. Why should I be picking up your bill?
20:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess many days you went home with your heads and your your head in your hands,
20:10
saying, good lord.
20:12
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think what you had to do, I think you really had to develop just.
20:16
Okay. At the end of the day, you go home and you pick it up next morning
20:19
and you keep it going because you know that you worry about burnout for yourself and for
20:24
the people working with you.
20:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
20:26
Leo Bissonnette: And that's that's the trick to this game.
20:28
And you know, I think.
20:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you helped move the university from case by case fixes towards universal
20:41
design in teaching and services.
20:46
What convinced faculty and administrators to shift from accommodations to access by
20:55
design?
20:57
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think it wasn't an even process across the faculties.
21:03
I think, strangely enough, the faculties of science and engineering were
21:09
easier to deal with because I think they began to,
21:11
you know, they understood, you know, if you if you talked about what a
21:15
good building would look like.
21:16
Yeah. That got some people's attention.
21:20
You know, it was harder to explain to a professor teaching history how all universal
21:27
design could work. You know, oftentimes what you would do as a professor
21:34
in some of the disciplines you would walk in.
21:37
You were the sage on the stage and you taught to,
21:41
you know, you taught to the the brighter students and and to say that you understood
21:48
that people had different learning styles.
21:51
No, that didn't necessarily translate to them.
21:54
It took time. And, you know some push and some of them came to say that it was total no
22:02
but some faculties and departments did better than others.
22:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying that it was easier for to deal with those in the sciences than rather
22:13
than those in the arts?
22:15
Leo Bissonnette: I think so.
22:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You do a.
22:17
Leo Bissonnette: I think across the board because, you know, if you could say to a,
22:21
you know, talking to an engineer or somebody who's building a building and you talked
22:26
about how, how did a ramp, how did putting in a ramp help?
22:30
Oh I see. Type of deal.
22:33
They could translate the analogies better.
22:37
And I think, you know, and it's again, it wasn't a totally smooth
22:40
process. Over time it became better.
22:45
And of course, when faculty began to understand learning differences for people
22:52
that seemed to break the logjam.
22:56
And it took time and again, we did a lot of work with faculty development
23:01
offices to develop plans to teach people, teach help instructors prepare for that in a
23:08
classroom context. And I think what we had to do like and luckily I think Concordia did
23:14
better at this than some other places.
23:17
It was, it was to value the students as opposed to,
23:23
you know for many faculty it was publish or perish,
23:26
but to value good teaching.
23:30
I think started to make a difference for a lot of professors who were lifelong teachers,
23:35
who were more open to say, okay, there is something I can gain from some
23:39
of this discussion and I can make a difference.
23:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
23:43
Leo Bissonnette: So, you know, unlike maybe other academic institutions that were very much for the
23:49
faculty on that side, you have to publish or perish.
23:53
And, you know, your publication is record were what we want to see than your academic
23:58
teaching record. So so, you know, maybe it was the climate of
24:04
Concordia that helped some of that as opposed to other institutions.
24:08
But over time it put a dent.
24:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Certainly I remember Doctor Radhakrishnan.
24:15
Leo Bissonnette: Oh my goodness.
24:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Talk about him all the time.
24:19
Oh wonderful. Yeah.
24:21
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And I had there was a particularly interesting biology prof that I came to know
24:25
over the years. And he, you wanted to talk about being there to help
24:29
innovate and come up with ideas to help some of our students.
24:35
He was there, and that's what made a difference.
24:38
And, you know, sometimes taking that back to a colleague opens other doors.
24:42
And that's what he did in this case.
24:44
And there are other examples.
24:46
So there were a lot of good faculty who came to it.
24:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now the scale of support that your team delivered like thousands of accommodated
24:58
exams each year didn't happen by accident.
25:04
What processes staffing models or partnerships made that level of service
25:12
reliable.
25:14
Leo Bissonnette: Well I think what began to happen was and I talked earlier about how the at one point an
25:19
exams office coordinator said, you know, why should we be paying for your
25:24
exams? Well.
25:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Naughty. Yeah.
25:26
Leo Bissonnette: It began. And it was a real tough slug to say,
25:30
hey, look, these are students.
25:32
And at some point, if I can't draw money from you,
25:36
we're going to have a problem. So let's figure out ways to make this work.
25:41
And over time, while there were administrative changes where there was clear
25:46
understanding that there had to be money put into it,
25:49
the university did put money.
25:51
And then we were able to go out to the government and say is we're accommodating
25:54
students. Part of the accommodation we need is an envelope of money to take care of the
26:01
exam side of things so that we can hire invigilators,
26:05
train Invigilators, get computer equipment into certain rooms and areas that we can.
26:10
We can do the exams. And it took time and it eventually did make a difference.
26:15
And and really what we were able to then do was set up our own structure where we had our
26:24
own exams coordinator who would schedule all our exams and work with the exams office to
26:30
get exams. Actual text of exams to us, you know,
26:34
in time. So if they were getting exams, say for December exams starting in mid
26:40
November, we were getting the documents.
26:42
If they had to be put into Braille, they were braille.
26:44
If they had to be taped, they were taped, etc..
26:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, this brings back so many memories to me because I also went to Concordia and I
26:54
remember those days, you know, like, so what you've done here is really
27:01
fleshed things out. You know, well.
27:05
Leo Bissonnette: In my first exams going when I was at Loyola,
27:08
that's where I started. My well, I did the CGF equivalent going back to 1970.
27:15
You would sit down with a prof and sort of make a deal with them,
27:18
how we would accommodate.
27:20
And, you know, it was that and it was it was the good graces of,
27:24
of, of the sociology department.
27:26
In my case, I came to know many of them and actually years later ended up teaching with
27:31
some of them. But, you know, it started somewhere,
27:33
but it was very an ad hoc solution as opposed to a system wide solution.
27:40
And that came into place and well by the time well I left my goodness we were doing I guess
27:48
and we were thinking this was like about 1500 exams the last Christmas before I retired.
27:54
Now they're doing much more than that. I don't even know what the stats are that
27:57
they're into. But it's big.
27:59
It's big time. So you know, it had to start somewhere,
28:04
and it started back then, and it continues to evolve.
28:07
And they have, as I say, they have several people now even
28:12
coordinating those exams.
28:14
And of course, they're running them day and night,
28:16
morning, evening, day and afternoon and night and even on the weekends.
28:21
And because again, it it it's in keeping with the way Concordia classes are structured and
28:27
faculties are structured.
28:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
28:30
Leo Bissonnette: So and it reflects the structure of Concordia.
28:33
Another university would work differently of course.
28:36
Yeah. But, you know, as long as you're in lockstep with what's in that administrative
28:42
structure of services, that's what you want to do.
28:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Beyond classrooms you pushed for accessible infrastructure such as camp campus shuttles,
28:58
elevator access and design of new buildings with which built in environment wins
29:08
most improved day to day life for students in your point of view?
29:15
Leo Bissonnette: Well, you know, it's so funny.
29:18
At one point with the buses.
29:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
29:24
Leo Bissonnette: The university is, in its so-called wisdom, bought some buses from California,
29:32
and we warned them. These buses, whether ready for our climate.
29:39
Well.
29:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
29:41
Leo Bissonnette: And do they have lifts?
29:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
29:43
Leo Bissonnette: Wheelchairs.
29:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well.
29:45
Leo Bissonnette: These these with great fanfare.
29:47
They arrive in the fall and they start off well.
29:50
Then you hit the winter.
29:52
Well, those lifts were freezing.
29:55
And, you know, halfway up you know.
29:59
So you had okay they had to go back.
30:01
They had to be you know, they had the lubricants had to be looked at
30:06
and so forth. It was a discussion that you really needed to get in at the outset.
30:12
So the next time they, they changed the buses,
30:15
of course, there was an improvement because from the ground up we were involved bringing
30:20
to the table, What was needed in terms of lifts and so forth,
30:25
straps and how you dealt with a wheelchair and locked it down.
30:28
And once you got it into a bus and, you know,
30:33
I think over time that improved.
30:35
Now, at a certain point Concordia, if you talk about the elevators,
30:40
these elevators that we had at the time in the hall building,
30:45
which was under the main buildings as an example,
30:48
we're getting old and for a whole lot of reasons,
30:51
the university decided to to change the system.
30:56
And again, it's okay. What do you do with talking elevators with this and that?
31:01
Well, luckily they did that part right.
31:04
But again, that took a lot of collaboration, a lot of meetings.
31:08
And, you know, you sit down with the people, what do you need? What are the things that
31:11
have to be here. What's the checklist that makes all this accessible.
31:17
And then with the buildings like as some of the new engineering buildings were built.
31:23
The faculty, the John Molson School was built again to have the architects.
31:29
And we did have an architect, actually his wife was very active at Dawson
31:36
and Disability Services, and luckily when this gentleman came in,
31:40
he had a good, clear idea from his work and seeing what his wife did as to what needed to
31:46
be done. So it was an easier sell to get him to think about what is needed in terms of
31:54
building design and a building setup.
31:57
So, you know, the John Molson School is a wonderful example of where all the good
32:04
things came together as that was built.
32:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you, I'm thinking you were probably ahead of the
32:13
game by many years as opposed to now.
32:15
I mean, now they're talking about accessible buildings,
32:18
accessible vehicles accessible this, accessible that.
32:21
But you were doing this.
32:22
Years before, weren't you?
32:24
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think we were. Although, you know, to be fair to other universities,
32:28
they were starting to do it, too.
32:30
And you know, I just think we took full advantage of the culture we had you know,
32:35
and it I think the bottom line was you had to sit down with the right people and you
32:42
develop that relationship to say, let's be we are a team here in this.
32:46
We all we all want to win out of this.
32:48
You know, it's like a good sports team, a good hockey team that has a good goalie,
32:53
a good defense and a good forward line.
32:55
If you're in in lockstep with each other, things happen.
32:58
And I think that's what we had.
33:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You had a great hockey team, if I may say so.
33:03
Right.
33:04
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. Well, we're going to see as I start tomorrow night a new year.
33:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You and I are cheering for the same team.
33:11
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah, and the Toronto Blue Jays.
33:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yes indeed. Yes indeed.
33:15
Yeah. So your PhD research at Concordia examined how to meet faculty's evolving
33:25
needs needs around accessibility.
33:28
What were the most surprising gaps that you uncovered,
33:33
and which training tactics actually changed teaching practices?
33:40
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think it's it's an interesting thing,
33:44
this topic, because at a time when faculty were starting to move from text based
33:51
materials to online materials, how did you make that happen?
33:57
Right. Well, faculty themselves were struggling with that.
34:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right.
34:02
Leo Bissonnette: You know, like, what does a good web like, you know,
34:05
if you had somebody a textbook and with pages you flip through them differently.
34:09
How do you chunk that material on a website?
34:13
It's different. They had to learn that we were all struggling with that.
34:16
The then factor into that?
34:19
Okay. How do I make this material accessible?
34:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
34:24
Leo Bissonnette: You know you know, what do you do to make sure that images are properly labeled?
34:31
What do you do with a PDF that needs to be read and so forth?
34:34
So I, I think what my dissertation began to show was that we were in a transition period,
34:43
and these things had to happen.
34:45
And of course, beyond people, what it did as I was doing the research
34:52
faculty development office, people came to me and said,
34:55
look, would you work with us to develop packages of information that we could give
35:02
faculty? You're designing a course pack.
35:06
How do we do that? You're designing a web based course.
35:12
How do you do that? And then, of course, as they brought on more of the
35:16
resources, like Concordia, for example, which was really tasked by the
35:22
university to to really push into into online courses.
35:26
How do you provide something for those people who are doing that heavy lifting with the
35:31
information that really brings the accessibility built in that you're not having
35:35
to retrofit? You know, let's do good design from the top,
35:40
you know, from the start.
35:42
And I think that's the that was the value of my research.
35:47
And of course, given that it was in-house people,
35:49
we I had them involved in some of the research I was doing.
35:53
They became they became to understand exactly what some of the barriers were.
36:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess, Leo, you were fighting on very many fronts.
36:05
Leo Bissonnette: Well you know what fighting there was a lot of collaboration because people were saying,
36:11
look it we're struggling.
36:13
You know, there was an admission of struggle.
36:15
Like, as I say, going from print based material to another format.
36:21
People were honestly saying, hey, I'm struggling,
36:24
how do we deal with it? So I'm not so sure that it was adversarial.
36:29
I would say it was like, okay, we're all struggling.
36:33
Let's admit it. Let's sit down and get it to work.
36:35
And then by having good, good examples to show colleagues and each
36:40
other, oh, you did it this way.
36:42
You did it that way. I think over the years it's,
36:46
you know, it'd be interesting to go back today and see what some of these courses look
36:49
like. But I think it started it started a good collaborative situation that that grew.
36:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, it reminds me of a bunch of us in a boat,
36:59
right? The seas are rough and we're saying, oh,
37:02
my Lord, we don't have a choice.
37:04
So we're going to have to collaborate to get this boat to land,
37:07
right?
37:08
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And that's a good analogy.
37:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah yeah.
37:11
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah.
37:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you've written and presented widely on alternate format materials.
37:21
Yeah. For instructors and departments listening today,
37:27
what is the fastest way to get from.
37:31
I have a course pack to every student can read it on day one.
37:41
Leo Bissonnette: Well, unfortunately, I would say that publishers have certainly opened up their
37:47
access. Selah library have much more of a material.
37:51
Right? You know, as example, Bookshare that's we didn't have those things
37:56
some years ago. And I think that's made a big,
37:59
big difference. And I think that's that's where the Kindle books you know,
38:08
things like that have made a big difference.
38:12
Audible. You know, all this has come to be tools and so forth that we can use.
38:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What what has happened to recording for the blind.
38:25
Are they still around.
38:28
Leo Bissonnette: Well at a certain point we couldn't get at their services in the States.
38:31
I have to assume they're around recordings now.
38:35
I guess something in dyslexic you know, I think they found their niche in the States
38:41
in that sense. But to speak to them specifically these days,
38:46
I don't know, I don't know.
38:49
I know that they were certainly very much around but they,
38:53
they, they expanded very much into the area of learning dyslexic,
38:57
providing services and so forth.
38:59
And where they sit today, I don't know.
39:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Many of our listeners are disability services professionals.
39:10
Okay. If you had to share a three part playbook for building a modern student
39:20
center office, what would it include?
39:26
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think what you've got, if you're starting fresh, I think what you do
39:29
is you've got to get in a lot of money from the administration and a commitment to that
39:35
to literally give you the physical space that's accessible that you need.
39:40
And that's that's a big part of it.
39:43
Then you've got to be able to recruit the professionals you need in the,
39:47
in the various areas of disability.
39:49
And I think you need to have be able to hire academic advisors who have a skill set in
39:56
dealing with specific disabilities that really they can ramp up to help students.
40:03
And then I think if there's other resources that are needed you know,
40:07
for example, note takers and so forth.
40:10
You have to have a structure for, for that kind of service support where
40:15
somebody is able to know that they can get their notes.
40:20
You know, can you hire classmates to do it?
40:22
And how do you train people to take good notes?
40:26
You know, that kind of thing?
40:29
I think that's the whole thing of getting the resources and the people that you need in
40:35
place to do to work with the students and on behalf of the university and sell it to the
40:40
university as a win win, where the money invested will give you a good
40:45
return.
40:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. You know, as you talk about all this, what about having readers who are well
40:52
trained to read exams that are technical?
40:56
I can tell you about that last.
40:58
Leo Bissonnette: No, I think I think that's it.
41:00
And I think, you know, there's where you go to some of the
41:03
departments and you say, okay, you have a very specific field here.
41:10
Let's talk about your graduate students who can work reading and exam to an undergraduate
41:15
and literally develop strategies so that it's not,
41:21
oh, you showed up today and oh, you need a reader.
41:24
No, you here's your you have your reader here.
41:28
You here's your room, here's your exam.
41:30
And that's what it it has to be seamless.
41:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I shared with you my my horrible experience last year when I went to write my
41:38
cybersecurity exam. Yeah.
41:41
The lady said to me, I don't know how to interpret this.
41:44
Yeah, yeah. And I sat there and I said, well,
41:46
I can't write this exam.
41:48
So now what?
41:49
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. What? No, you don't want to get to that situation.
41:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No no no no no no.
41:53
Leo Bissonnette: It's tough enough as it is.
41:55
But no. You want to get something past that?
41:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
41:59
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah.
42:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to tell me we're running out of time,
42:04
but I wanted to ask you this question.
42:06
Ashton, you often talk about building a toolbox that mixes high tech and low tech.
42:17
What's in your toolbox right now and how do you evaluate new visual assistants,
42:25
apps and devices?
42:28
Leo Bissonnette: Well, literally, in my case, I have in my briefcase,
42:31
a pocket, a pocket guide and stylus.
42:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Same here.
42:35
Leo Bissonnette: You know, and I think that begins to talk about what you have.
42:41
I have an iPhone that of course has a whole range of apps on there that do a range of
42:46
things. Yes. And I think that's, you know, that that begins to take you into
42:50
the higher tech end of it.
42:52
I'm fortunate enough to have decided a few years ago to buy my own Braille display.
42:59
I have a Perkins Brailler that sits on my desk.
43:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow.
43:02
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And it's, you know, and that Perkins Brailler is the one that my
43:07
mother bought me back in 1966 at $92.
43:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My. Oh.
43:14
Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. Yeah. So. And then, you know, well, you take advantage.
43:18
Like, what started out with tape recorders years ago is now,
43:22
you know, an app on the phone that you can record meetings if you so wish.
43:26
So if you go from, you know, it's the, the slate and stylus,
43:31
the pocket guide, slate and stylus right through this other you know,
43:35
the bigger things. And I think what you got to do is you,
43:39
you have to say to yourself, what do I need?
43:43
And you try to put it in place and learn how to use it,
43:47
take advantage of how to use it.
43:49
And that's that's what's key.
43:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's a bit of this and a bit of that bit of that Holden from the new.
43:55
Right.
43:56
Leo Bissonnette: Oh yeah. And you know don't dismiss the low tech stuff.
44:02
Yeah. Everybody said, oh the high tech stuff and all of this stuff
44:06
has its place.
44:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
44:09
Leo Bissonnette: So, yeah.
44:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So in winding up here, what are your thoughts about the future of of
44:18
high tech as it plays a part in the lives of persons who,
44:22
especially those who are blind and vision impaired?
44:24
Where do you see this going?
44:26
And what about Braille?
44:29
Do you think Braille is still a formidable giant in our landscape?
44:36
Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think it's very interesting.
44:38
Now you have coming into play a new generation of technology that that is not
44:44
just a single line of Braille display.
44:47
It's multi line. The monarch is an example of technology that yes,
44:53
today is expensive. All the technology was expensive and is expensive.
44:58
But I think this has some really interesting Possibilities for people who are,
45:05
for example, in commerce.
45:07
If you're looking at a spreadsheet, an Excel spreadsheet today on a monarch,
45:12
what a difference to be able to literally run your hand down multi lines and across to see
45:21
what's in a column, I think that's where it's important.
45:26
And I think Braille will have a resurgence there.
45:30
And and I think as they become more skilled at how to more formally build in apps to this
45:39
to help you learn math or deal with math and other things.
45:43
I think it's this next generation of multiline braille displays that will give
45:47
Braille a new lease on life.
45:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Wow, I've enjoyed this interview.
45:56
I've learned a lot from you.
45:58
I, I you know, I always knew that you were heavily involved in,
46:04
you know, things going on at Concordia. And I want to thank you,
46:06
Leo, for having stuck with me over the years,
46:09
not just as, you know, as my mentor, my friend,
46:13
my advisor. And you played a pivotal role in,
46:17
in the campaign for Barrier Free Canada.
46:20
So thank you. Well thank you.
46:21
Leo Bissonnette: You know, if I may say it, first of all, I remember meeting you down at
46:24
CSUN in the middle of all this, right?
46:28
Yes. And we talked about it.
46:30
But I also say I'm going to take you back to your own career.
46:32
You went into commerce at a time when you know,
46:36
you broke some trails trailblazing to when, you know,
46:40
you were getting profs in commerce.
46:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
46:43
Leo Bissonnette: Used to think so. No, I think you can be.
46:46
You can celebrate your own accomplishment in opening up access in an area of studies that
46:54
people in the John Molson School today would certainly have had a root in your work and
46:59
others.
47:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I think we've both traveled the same road.
47:02
Leo Bissonnette: And I think we have.
47:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we have miles to go.
47:05
Don't worry. Oh, I think.
47:07
Leo Bissonnette: That's the thing. You know what? You know, somebody said,
47:10
does advocacy work ever stop?
47:12
No. It continues. The challenges emerge.
47:16
Yeah. You know, what's what will be around in five years.
47:20
We maybe haven't even anticipated, but it's part of it.
47:24
So upward and onward.
47:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, sir.
47:28
I appreciate it. And we will be in touch on other initiatives.
47:33
Leo Bissonnette: Thank you. Donna. It was a pleasure to be here with you this afternoon.
47:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. And take care now.
47:38
Leo Bissonnette: You too. Thank you. Bye bye.
47:43
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
47:49
Until next time.